My feedback on the recent nerf.

[Bless]

I just entered pvp today, full upgraded mythics. I had around 1.4k mana. The mana cost for the rogues skills are as follows: 97mana for Aimed shot and Nox bolt. 120 mana for shadow pierce. 70 something mana for Medic. (95% rogues 4 skills).

So as I faced another rogue, my usual combo struck and killed the opponent however I was 50% mana. After that, almost every fight I got into with a rogue led me to 50% mana. Last cap, I could kill faster and without using much mana - I wouldnt need much mana. However since the damage nerf, i inflict less damage, meaning it would take more shots to kill the opponent and more mana used.

Other classes have skills that help to sew up their weakness, for example: A warrior has a tiny mana pool but has vengeul blood which can make mana pool full within seconds. The mage lacks in HP and armor, it has the arcane shield which gives it double survivability. Rogues weakness is? Both mana and HP, see their strong point is agility, damage and luck. They dont excell in HP or MP department.

My suggestion: Make rogues skills less mana costly. 75 aimshot and nox bolt. 95 shadow pierce. 60 medic.

It would make more sense as the rogue is nothing without mana, and we do seem to lack after the damage nerf. You also have to take in account the armor a warrior has now, thatd incredible! A rogue would never win a 1v1 against a warrior with 2.2k armor, rogue would run out of mana too quickly :eek:


I will test more tomorrow. This is my opinion, if you want to flame do it in pvp ;)

[Alfai]

I've heard this.haven't been pvping.but even in pve my mana cost seems increasing tremendously.hv nvr been spamming mana pots tht hard (even with maxed knowledge and few points in int) Iast season.now spamming pots real mad in fact even more than hp which is kinda weird.

[Soundlesskill]

Buff mana nerf crit :)

[Bullox]

Medium equipped Warris lvl 36 have about 1,4k Armor and 5,2k HP.

I did some 1v1 vs. a good Rogue and im still nearly chanceless....

Played with Sky and Axe, i think with Windmill i have still no Chance vs. Rogue.

The fight last a little bit longer, but still with the same Results, because they lowered dmg from all classes.

StS should buff Rogues Mana, but nerf a little bit the high crits.

Or they should give Warris a little bit more dmg.

[Soundlesskill]

That's what I said lmao

[Serenina]

I played my last TDM on Lvl 31 yesterday. I do not have a single mythic item, but high-end legendary gear.
So I met two random wars from the opponent team and fought them like I always do against warris: Charged normal-charge hp-aimed-nox-shadow piercer. And then I noticed I was out of mana after a few seconds (?)...haha. Okay...so I ran to the mana station and refilled it.
To cut a long story short: It seems like to kill one random war takes about 75% of your mana at Level 31.
That has to be fixed as soon as I reach the new level cap. :D

[Zeus]

I played my last TDM on Lvl 31 yesterday. I do not have a single mythic item, but high-end legendary gear.
So I met two random wars from the opponent team and fought them like I always do against warris: Charged normal-charge hp-aimed-nox-shadow piercer. And then I noticed I was out of mana after a few seconds (?)...haha. Okay...so I ran to the mana station and refilled it.
To cut a long story short: It seems like to kill one random war takes about 75% of your mana at Level 31.
That has to be fixed as soon as I reach the new level cap. :D

IMO, it does make sense for an average rogue to lose to an average warrior, just as a pro rogue should lose to a pro warrior. Why? They have all that armor and health to absorb your damage! The object for them is to let you waste your "arrows" (mana) until you're empty so they can move in for the kill. Otherwise, what's the point of them to PvP? To tank and still die?

P.S: Not calling you average, never seen you play!

[Bless]

I played my last TDM on Lvl 31 yesterday. I do not have a single mythic item, but high-end legendary gear.
So I met two random wars from the opponent team and fought them like I always do against warris: Charged normal-charge hp-aimed-nox-shadow piercer. And then I noticed I was out of mana after a few seconds (?)...haha. Okay...so I ran to the mana station and refilled it.
To cut a long story short: It seems like to kill one random war takes about 75% of your mana at Level 31.
That has to be fixed as soon as I reach the new level cap. :D

IMO, it does make sense for an average rogue to lose to an average warrior, just as a pro rogue should lose to a pro warrior. Why? They have all that armor and health to absorb your damage! The object for them is to let you waste your "arrows" (mana) until you're empty so they can move in for the kill. Otherwise, what's the point of them to PvP? To tank and still die?

P.S: Not calling you average, never seen you play! No, that doesnt justify how much damage a fully maxed rogue does to a maxed warrior. Rogues do less damage than they did last season.

I tested with inkredble and he had 2k armor. Now I hit 500 dmg on a CHARGED aimed shot, thats not right, my L21 hits harder to a tank. The most I did to ink was 800 damage (after stacking -30% armor debuff!!).

[Zeus]

No, that doesnt justify how much damage a fully maxed rogue does to a maxed warrior. Rogues do less damage than they did last season.

I tested with inkredble and he had 2k armor. Now I hit 500 dmg on a CHARGED aimed shot, thats not right, my L21 hits harder to a tank. The most I did to ink was 800 damage (after stacking -30% armor debuff!!).

Were you hitting him when he was fully buffed?

[Bless]

No, that doesnt justify how much damage a fully maxed rogue does to a maxed warrior. Rogues do less damage than they did last season.

I tested with inkredble and he had 2k armor. Now I hit 500 dmg on a CHARGED aimed shot, thats not right, my L21 hits harder to a tank. The most I did to ink was 800 damage (after stacking -30% armor debuff!!).

Were you hitting him when he was fully buffed? no buff, was just testing

[Bullox]

A full Legendary equipped Warri reach about 1,5k Armor and with that we still get big Hits from Rogues....

For me it looks like, that the difference between mythic/arcane and only legendary equipped People gets bigger and bigger.....

I think, the time will come in which only a handfull players do PvP and the Rest stop it, because they are tired of being 1or 2 shot food for a few players.....

[Zeus]

no buff, was just testing

Then yes, this should be fixed, lol. Warriors shouldn't be immortal.

Then again, this upgrade doesn't really effect me due to my Hammerjaw :D

I already get 10% additional damage, so it'd be like it was never there and Hammerjaw was just a Malison in shark form.

[Zeus]

Actually, just to revise...I know why the 10% damage decrease is such a huge issue.

First of all, damage increased by 20-50 points, but armor increased by 300 or so points. Now, according to Fluff's calculations, 1 damage = 1 armor at end game.

Therefore, even without the 10% decrease, we would be seeing less powerful hits. Therefore, the 10 percent damage only amplifies this decreasing damage effect. Thus, last cap the damage nerf might've been needed but this cap, it isn't really needed.

[Bless]

Actually, just to revise...I know why the 10% damage decrease is such a huge issue.

First of all, damage increased by 20-50 points, but armor increased by 300 or so points. Now, according to Fluff's calculations, 1 damage = 1 armor at end game.

Therefore, even without the 10% decrease, we would be seeing less powerful hits. Therefore, the 10 percent damage only amplifies this decreasing damage effect. Thus, last cap the damage nerf might've been needed but this cap, it isn't really needed. Rogues 1v1 are a LOT more tactical exactly like L21 twinking. I like it but rogues are nerfed by damage a lot, they hit more last season than this season -.- I actually want dmg nerf to be nerfed. Nerf all dmg nerf by half?

Apollo does have a valid point. A warrior this season has over 600+ armor than L31 warrior. This is a huge jump and the damage nerf really amplifies it. Whats more is that against mages, rogues die a lot now, our damage isnt able to overpower their stuns + a full myth (no arcane) mage can have around 450 base dmg.

This season the rogue and warriors are lacking because of the nerf. Imo.

[Zeus]

Rogues 1v1 are a LOT more tactical exactly like L21 twinking. I like it but rogues are nerfed by damage a lot, they hit more last season than this season -.- I actually want dmg nerf to be nerfed. Nerf all dmg nerf by half?

Apollo does have a valid point. A warrior this season has over 600+ armor than L31 warrior. This is a huge jump and the damage nerf really amplifies it. Whats more is that against mages, rogues die a lot now, our damage isnt able to overpower their stuns + a full myth (no arcane) mage can have around 450 base dmg.

This season the rogue and warriors are lacking because of the nerf. Imo.

There's no need for a damage nerf, period. The huge increase of armor this cap leveled out the one shots and other things, IMO.

All classes armor increased by anywhere from 300-500. Also, the damage only increased by 40-50 points, so there isn't a need to nerf.

[KingFu]

As for the mana, why not have what Cinco almost did for mages in the early days of PL? Slightly reduce how much health each heal pack gives, and allow it to provide a significant amount of mana in return.

[drgrimmy]

Whats more is that against mages, rogues die a lot now, our damage isnt able to overpower their stuns + a full myth (no arcane) mage can have around 450 base dmg.

400 not 450...

[Frohnatur]

lol

[inkredible]

Medium equipped Warris lvl 36 have about 1,4k Armor and 5,2k HP.

I did some 1v1 vs. a good Rogue and im still nearly chanceless....

Played with Sky and Axe, i think with Windmill i have still no Chance vs. Rogue.

The fight last a little bit longer, but still with the same Results, because they lowered dmg from all classes.

StS should buff Rogues Mana, but nerf a little bit the high crits.

Or they should give Warris a little bit more dmg.

have u tried jugg? LOL
i havent pvp spec so ihavent 1v1 any rogue but when i get out of my pve mode, ill deff try to see how it is now 1v1

[Bless]

Whats more is that against mages, rogues die a lot now, our damage isnt able to overpower their stuns + a full myth (no arcane) mage can have around 450 base dmg.

400 not 450... I said a mage "can" and a mage can easily have 450 with slag or damage passive

[drgrimmy]

I said a mage "can" and a mage can easily have 450 with slag or damage passive

If it is so easy then show me an unbuffed screenshot of a full mythic mage with a damage of 450. It is not possible. A full mythic mage has a damage of 400 give or take a few points. Please don't spread rumors.

Now I have seen Beatrixx with Sam and the arcane staff with a damage of 474 - absolutely crazy.


Edit...
Since you brought it up as an example here is a screenie of a full mythic mage with slag:


new armor set
40346

[Bless]

If it is so easy then show me an unbuffed screenshot of a full mythic mage with a damage of 450. It is not possible. A full mythic mage has a damage of 400 give or take a few points. Please don't spread rumors.

Now I have seen Beatrixx with Sam and the arcane staff with a damage of 474 - absolutely crazy.


Edit...
Since you brought it up as an example here is a screenie of a full mythic mage with slag: Easily 450 dmg. Aze has 400 damage.

Slag gives 12% dmg
Dmg passive maxed gives 5% dmg

12 + 5= 17% dmg

17% of 400 = approx 70 dmg.

400 + 70 = 470 dmg

the 70 dmg doesnt show on stats screen but its reflected to our real stats.

[JaytB]

Easily 450 dmg. Aze has 400 damage.

Slag gives 12% dmg
Dmg passive maxed gives 5% dmg

12 + 5= 17% dmg

17% of 400 = approx 70 dmg.

400 + 70 = 470 dmg

the 70 dmg doesnt show on stats screen but its reflected to our real stats.

Did you actually test this out? I'm asking because my own tests show a totally different picture on how +% dmg increase works.

As far as I can see, that damage is NOT added to your base damage but to your damage numbers displayed on screen, which means that the base damage added is nowhere near the numbers in your post.

I was surprised when I saw the results when I tested it, but it does make sense seeing that STS/G has so much difficulty adding the correct amount of damage to be reflected in your stats screen. If it was really such a simple calculation, wouldn't it be fixed by now?

As said, those are my own tests I did during the last free respec weekend. Things could've changed since then.

[Bless]

Did you actually test this out? I'm asking because my own tests show a totally different picture on how +% dmg increase works.

As far as I can see, that damage is NOT added to your base damage but to your damage numbers displayed on screen, which means that the base damage added is nowhere near the numbers in your post.

I was surprised when I saw the results when I tested it, but it does make sense seeing that STS/G has so much difficulty adding the correct amount of damage to be reflected in your stats screen. If it was really such a simple calculation, wouldn't it be fixed by now?

As said, those are my own tests I did during the last free respec weekend. Things could've changed since then. I am not a mage but its simple math. If the damage bonus is in percentage, it should add to damage dealt otherwise this whole thing is useless.

[drgrimmy]

I am trying hard to reserve my inflammatory statements about your excessive number of posts on the poor rogue who can't kill anything in pvp and is at the mercy of the new op mage....

[Zeus]

I am trying hard to reserve my inflammatory statements about your excessive number of posts on the poor rogue who can't kill anything in pvp and is at the mercy of the new op mage....

I haven't tried PvP yet but Love says he kills more now than before, so...idk which side to choose.

[Deadroth]

I am trying hard to reserve my inflammatory statements about your excessive number of posts on the poor rogue who can't kill anything in pvp and is at the mercy of the new op mage....

Rogue is women.. And women are always jelaous about everything. XD

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQi1Yc880qfW95q-Lq2zxXkT7N8xiShGoPmVkCxFtq2mu27fbm7


Medium equipped Warris lvl 36 have about 1,4k Armor and 5,2k HP.

I did some 1v1 vs. a good Rogue and im still nearly chanceless....

Played with Sky and Axe, i think with Windmill i have still no Chance vs. Rogue.

The fight last a little bit longer, but still with the same Results, because they lowered dmg from all classes.

StS should buff Rogues Mana, but nerf a little bit the high crits.

Or they should give Warris a little bit more dmg.

And free hotdog to others. Geez... GOOD warriors are almost immortal. Only You can kill them in gang. Don't cry You are warrior in pvp... Just use slag against rouges... Don't watch health cuz You have also +2 sec immortality wid big hp bonus..

[JaytB]

I am not a mage but its simple math. If the damage bonus is in percentage, it should add to damage dealt otherwise this whole thing is useless.

It's the same for a rogue. I'd say test it out before making any statements. Never has a dev confirmed anything about the way 'you' think damage is calculated, neither did you test it yourself.

Stating 'it's simple math' without testing or any confirmed background info, makes it seem like you're just here to complain without any foundation.

[Bless]

This is strictly imo, the evidence is there (yes a mage can get 450+ dmg if the dmg % works as intended), but I dont suck in pvp grim :p I have pvpd 7 months plus, I have mastered my combo but mages really do have the leisure this expansion. Im not crying - its just what my tests prove. I just versed another mage yesterday and I beat him (equal gear wise) lots of times but when another rogue in my team tried him (he had an arcane pet and full mythic, better in gear than me) he lost to the mage.

It may seem like me and noisykillar and some rogues really cry about everything, its hard to post one suggestion without the whole cry baby clause thrown in our faces. No, half the rogues ingame want to complain about things but were the ones who really get our voices heard, and get flamed. Idc what anyone thinks, I really dont because I dont need others' approval. I can still kill mages, wars and rogues are WAY easier 1v1 for me but its way harder to kill mages now because we dont hit enough damage now.

They have advantage of mana, dmg, 2sec invulnerability, stun for 5secs VERSUS a rogues advantage of dodge, crit, more armor (but they have shield which easily gives more survivability than 300 armor). Thats about it in pvp. This expansion, the devs are very generous to the mages but us rogues dont do what were supposed to do better than any other class: deal damage. And dont even get me started on poor warriors, they deal less damage than their pets.

My MAIN point is, let mages cherish this expansion, I really do want them to, I like challenges and I can kill them too. But it would be nice to have more mana as a rogue as the damage nerf hit us hard.


@ Jay. sorry i dont have any proof but it would be normal to say that damage percentages are based off of your base damage. Otherwise 10% of a normals rogues aimed shot is 600dmg = 60 dmg more...thats not very good

[Bless]

I haven't tried PvP yet but Love says he kills more now than before, so...idk which side to choose. Yes, its easier to handle pvp atm becuase people cant 3hit you from blind spots or that I can take on 2v1s or that other rogues cant kill you before you heal.

[drgrimmy]

This is strictly imo, the evidence is there (yes a mage can get 450+ dmg if the dmg % works as intended), but I dont suck in pvp grim :p I have pvpd 7 months plus, I have mastered my combo but mages really do have the leisure this expansion. Im not crying - its just what my tests prove. I just versed another mage yesterday and I beat him (equal gear wise) lots of times but when another rogue in my team tried him (he had an arcane pet and full mythic, better in gear than me) he lost to the mage.

It may seem like me and noisykillar and some rogues really cry about everything, its hard to post one suggestion without the whole cry baby clause thrown in our faces. No, half the rogues ingame want to complain about things but were the ones who really get our voices heard, and get flamed. Idc what anyone thinks, I really dont because I dont need others' approval. I can still kill mages, wars and rogues are WAY easier 1v1 for me but its way harder to kill mages now because we dont hit enough damage now.

They have advantage of mana, dmg, 2sec invulnerability, stun for 5secs VERSUS a rogues advantage of dodge, crit, more armor (but they have shield which easily gives more survivability than 300 armor). Thats about it in pvp. This expansion, the devs are very generous to the mages but us rogues dont do what were supposed to do better than any other class: deal damage. And dont even get me started on poor warriors, they deal less damage than their pets.

My MAIN point is, let mages cherish this expansion, I really do want them to, I like challenges and I can kill them too. But it would be nice to have more mana as a rogue as the damage nerf hit us hard.


@ Jay. sorry i dont have any proof but it would be normal to say that damage percentages are based off of your base damage

Sorry bless, I am not trying to say that you are no good. In fact I know you are very good at pvp :). It's is just hard for me to see how things are so bad for rogues. Part of it may be due to the fact that I am not a rogue. Part of it may be the fact that rogues have been op for so long that it is hard to think of them as having weaknesses. I must say, although I don't play pvp as much as you or some other people, I have been playing end game pvp since it came out and have a respectable number of kills with a respectable k/d. Although there have been a lot of changes made to pvp, it mostly just comes down to the skill of the player. My k/b has been pretty stable at 2/1 despite any changes, with the exception of the learning curve of the first 1-2k kills or so. In fact my k/d even improved after the much dreaded nerf to stun. This is irregardless of the nerf to stun, the warrior windmill glitch and subsequent fix, the nerf to lifethiefs, the introduction of the mythic gun etc. Although some will perceive as such, I am not saying this to brag, but more to demonstrate that good players can adapt and keep winning despite initially perceived setbacks with updates. Great rogues have always killed me and will keep killing me and mediocre rogues were always killed by me and will keep dying at my hand, and I think it will stay like this regardless of little changes sts makes. It is still early after the recent changes and I think we should all hold off from jumping to conclusions about the changes until everyone has had time to adapt. Not to mention the fact that most people are not even playing pvp now. I would think that only hardcore pvp players are in pvp now so the pool of opponents is probably much tougher than it usually is... Lets keep hope in the changes sts made!

[ipredator]

me and bless tested to kill inkredble, i had max damage with passives , hammerjaw buff with bless ribbit buff.. yet i needed 4 charged critical aimshots to kill him, and i couldnt hit more than 700 with a charged aimshot that didnt crit .. i suggest a bit damage buff to keep up with warriors armor now.. and all that inkredble was just standing ;)

[Bullox]

Inkredble is one of a few really good equipt Warriors. The others with 'only' Legendary Gear reach about 1,5k armor and about 5,3k hp that means, rogues can still kill them very fast.......

The difference between Mythic/Arcane and Legendary equipt Players in my opinion is too big. With these differences STS cant balance PvP.

I think, If STS have no really good idea to balance this a bit, PvP would only be played from a few Hardcore Players like last Expansion. If i joined PvP there, i always See the same people.........

[storrm]

Full equiped full skilled rouge is HELL really