Do you farm Elite Shuyal?

[KingMartin]

I wonder how many of you are farming Elite Shuyal for loot.

It seems to me that the economy changed massively because of the easy drops from Bael and Krunch. I thought architect pink drops are exclusive to new bosses until my kid looted Architect Helm of Will lvl 36. I thought it should come from one of the most difficult bosses (perhaps even bugged).

And yet the price of the helm dropped from 750k to current 450k within one day.

The problem of the last season towards the end was that players were divided mostly into 3 groups - pvp, Oltgar hunters, and Bael/Krunch hunters. And ok, time runners on the last day, lol :)

Now it seems to me that it goes in the same direction, perhaps more Bael hunters because Oltgar minions got heavily buffed and it is no bed of roses even for a fully upgraded party with arcane pets. Which is good, because at least Hammers might keep the price.

As for the eggs - the most valuable eggs' prices are dropping constantly, because both Bael and Grimnr are easily solo-able. I did Palm Rock trio with two undergeared guildies within 11 minutes, so Firesquid prices can be expected to drop, too. I have not tried Lost Cove yet. Also I have not tried if Caverns now drop Mountain Teeth level 35. On the other hand, who needs Teeth when market is flooded with Quills obtained during that glitch on last Saturday.

If I invest one hour of time in 4-member party, we are highly likely to find 2-3 elite Baels and Krunches. Consumption of pots very low.

Now, when the same party runs Shuyal bosses, one, say, in 10 minutes (I won't give away our best times here :) ), it costs 1000s of pots, perhaps also plats, and there are like 6 CHANCES per hour. For an usual party it is only 2, if not one with a high risk of rage quit.

So, my question is, what do you end-gamers with all Archenemies APs (perhaps besides bugged Wraith and Heart) farm?

On a positive side, I feel that lots of new content based on Shuyal environment will be on the way. Or, is it just a hope? :)

Thank you for listening.

[katish]

You forgot egg hunters towards season end. Lots of parties for elite antee and rook nest.

Personally been farming maps 2, 3 and 5 of shuyal

Haven't mastered the runs just yet but getting there.. And oltgar still made the list.


Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2

[IronMonkey]

I'm going to hunt elite Bael II once my mythic helm is upgraded.

[KingMartin]

You forgot egg hunters towards season end. Lots of parties for elite antee and rook nest.

Personally been farming maps 2, 3 and 5 of shuyal


Yes of course, I forgot those Antee and Bael countless runs! :) I dont know about Antee, but Bael got so easy that beating him solo within 9 minutes or less is possible now.

I agree with maps 2, 3 and 5 (I personally like Overgrow very much, it is an excellent design, so funny! :) )

But I was rather speaking about efficiency of the hunt, or Revenue - Costs = Profit if you want. (Neglecting fun, of which is for sure more in Elite Overgrow than at beating Spyr pigs)

[IronMonkey]

by the way, whats the best team at Overgrowth?

2 rogues, 1 mage and a warrior?

[KingMartin]

by the way, whats the best team at Overgrowth?

2 rogues, 1 mage and a warrior?

I am yet to find out - we do most of the difficult runs in a 2 mages, 2 rogues, or 2 mages, 1 rogue, 1 warrior party. All fully upgraded usually with 2-3 arcane pets in the party. (I don't have any lol :D ). No one has any arcane weapon (yet). We do not use that famous Samael cheat (desummon, summon for arcane reset and new chance to wipe mobs). BTW, why can't STS correct this?

As the Shuyal mobs are damn tough it seems to me that crowd controlling power slightly prevails over DPS party. But I may be wrong, I am sure there are 1 mage, 3 rogues parties clearing the areas just as fast or faster than we do.

[Cero]

Yes, for looting
Archon ring and ashal pendant which could be par with mythics.(they sell high)

Oltgar is prolly hunt down because of the warriors demand. Entombed has more dmg than Arch weapon, which most warriors want.

Also the main reason why people go on kraken is because the quest fot upgrading mythic helm demands you to find armor fragments by smashing kraken barrels.

[KingMartin]

Yes, for looting
Archon ring and ashal pendant which could be par with mythics.(they sell high)


Those rings are elite mob drops, right?

[Cero]

Yes, for looting
Archon ring and ashal pendant which could be par with mythics.(they sell high)


Those rings are elite mob drops, right?

dev said it drops from the thoughest mobs
I can only think of the Gaint mob and Shadowmancer(blue guy)

[Daddyblu]

dev said it drops from the thoughest mobs
I can only think of the Gaint mob and Shadowmancer(blue guy)

Yup got one yesterday.. Also you can new rings and amulet on elite silver and copper chest

[Joncheese]

I've heard the elite ashral heart drops the ashral shard amulets but I'm not so sure.

And for the elite overgrowth boss fight I'm pretty sure 2rogue 1mage 1war is the ideal setup. You need the rogue's 1v1 dmg when killing off the sorcs that spawn to heal the boss. 2sorcs in party though fully-geared I've ibserved aren't as effective and the run gets prolinged because one missed sorc gets sucked into the boss and then it regens a fair amount.

Having said that if there are ways to make a party with 2 mages work then I'm all ears :)

Hi mate, we do every run with 2 mages, its standard for us. I find the best combo is always 2 mages 2 rogues or 2 mage 1 rogue 1 warr.... Depending on whether u want a quick time or not. Obviously this theory goes out of the window when you start bringing Arcane mauls into the equation and warriors then produce enough dmg to do a rogues job :/

Anyway, ramble over, we use 2 mages because we find that the crowd control is alot more efficient and we are able to drag larger numbers at once. Though ice does not seem to work on the mages in shuyal, it does seem to work on the skeleton mobs. Clock then helps us keep them all grouped together for a fireball/frost attack/auto attack.

Using 2 mages means 2 clocks, meaning the mobs SHOULD be kept without moving anywhere, allowing the others in party to have an easier time in the map (because after all us mages are primarily for cc and support imo).

Using this method with a geared team works effectively, tho takes some perfecting with pulls etc. But then a bit of trial and error goes along way ;)

Sorry if stated the obvious here, but there u have it.

And Queen/King, we'll get you some more gear later i promise :)

[Taejo]

End-game farming has me rather frustrated at the moment. I think the problem is the amount of people surging the content to make gold (thanks to 50 & 100m achievements). The market is completely in the gutters already and we're only 5 days into the expansion. I was lucky to sell some architect helms/armor at 700k+ over the weekend, but now I'm lucky to even sell an item (because of 5-10 people underbidding) for a terrible price such as 150-250k (for the 2nd best armor in the game, mind you). Puzzleboxes seem to be doing well, but I can't really see myself farming just those for the next 5-6 months. There's also really nothing for me to farm in terms of personal development with my characters, since mythic gear is still the best. I really dislike this fact, because I have very little to work for and am worried I might get bored fairly soon. With that being said, here is outline of my perspective on the state of end-game farming:

Problems:

1. Too many opportunities to loot Architect helms and armor - Arena, Bael/Krunch, elite Shuyal. These items are overly abundant, and of little value. There are way too many places to find these drops, and I think it's safe to say that roughly 70% of them are tossed into the CS because players already have mythic or are willing to wait and save up until they get mythic.

2. Not enough incentives to run elite Shuyal/Nordr maps. Why run Nordr at all? The Architect weapons have identical stats and a better proc than Nordr's. Also, Bael/Krunch drop these items and are much easier to hunt.

3. No epic adventures to partake in - nothing for mythic players to do for development of their character (except the achievements which can be completed in a matter of days). All of the quests are too easy.

4. Season 4 mythic gear is the best, and leaves very few reasons to farm anything else for character development.

Proposed solutions:

1. Make Arena-specific loot tables! We've been asking for this since last season when it was introduced. All the Arena does at this point is provide an opportunity for end-gamers to farm 4 bosses for 5 chances at elite loot in less than 15 minutes a run. If by 5 days into the expansion we're already experiencing problems with an over flooded market, just imagine how bad it is going to be one month from now. Perhaps also reducing the drop rates is a viable option. If you do this, however, please add a daily quest for an Elite Golden Puzzlebox. Quest from bard: "A Gladiator's Burden" - complete a full match of the arena (kill all 4 bosses) 20 times and return for your reward.

2. Bael/Krunch should NOT be dropping loot from the entire game! Their unique loot is a very nice addition to the game, however, having them drop loot from Kraken and Nordr has completely ruined any motivation to go back and farm certain gear. Why bother running elite Palm Rock or Mount Spyr, when I can just farm Bael/Krunch? Their loot tables must be cut down a good amount - or at least make the older stuff ultra rare. I realize that in theory, Bael/Krunch's spawn rate is very low; but take a good look at the CS and you will see that their loot is overly abundant right now. Maybe it's because no one wants to buy it? If that's the case, items like "Troll Necromatic Ring" need to be buffed and made rare to increase it's value (both monetarily and desired)

3. Make Shuyal elite maps harder. Look at the leader boards. It's quite obvious that the difficulty of this expansion is not on scale with previous campaigns. Architect weapons and armor have already flooded the market, because the content is not challenging enough to offset the loot rarity. This point deserves an entire thread of its own.

4. Add more incentives to clear trash mobs in elite maps. The Archon ring idea is brilliant, good job! However, people are still just rushing to bosses after clearing 1/3 of the zone - it's so ridiculous how little people care about the actual adventure through a map as opposed to the reward awaiting at the end. Nothing but dollar signs in their eyes. So for people like me and my guild (and others), make more unique drops from elite Nordr/Shuyal trash mobs. We will reap the benefits of clearing a map properly, while the rush-farmers can stick with their commonly dropped items to sell. Maybe add some quests for Puzzleboxes + gold that includes clearing trash mobs for rare quest drops? Not as rare as the fragments from barrels/crates during mythic upgrade quest, but something that would force people to clear more trash mobs to complete the quest and have a chance at rare, elite, legendary items. A quest called "Missing Pieces of the Puzzle" - collect 40 puzzlebox fragments from the elite nasties scattered around the lands of Shuyal. Bring these back to me and I will re-assemble the puzzlebox for you, along with a handsome reward! (maybe 5-7k gold).

5. Lack of interesting/involved content. Something like what Energizeric has mentioned in his epic quest suggestion (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?114281-New-quot-Shadow-Quest-quot) is desperately needed for mythic, end-gamers.

These are just a few ideas I can come up with at the moment. I'm sure STG already has a bunch of new content in the works to release during the next few months in order to recapture our interest. Honestly, I just hope I make it that long... This is a wonderful game and STG's staff does an amazing job. This expansion, however, seems to be prematurely released...


EDIT: My writing style sounds a bit harsh, I know. Please ignore this and realize I am just trying to help make improvements to the game.

[Taejo]

Also I just learned that Bael/Krunch drop Architect weapons also?? For crying out loud.......

[KingMartin]

Taejo, buddy, thanks for your thorough contribution. It was a big surprise for me that even Arena drops Architect stuff (although perhaps not the best versions).

Last season (I played warrior a lot) I remember that STR/INT armor of Will 31 cost like 700k and helm not much less even 2 months after the expansion.

Now not just quills, but the entire architect (equivalent of former noble) stuff is slowly turning into trash.

I see now that the rumors about dropping elite levels in the future might be true. Having no big motivation, players will not explore elite levels and it will be easy to justify why they were skipped.

Leaving pvp aside, our guildies are hunting Baels day and night and when they get good stuff, we will achieve all the APs for everybody (I mean Archenemies).

And what will those who like to master hard maps do then? When loot yields no acceptable benefit?

[Taejo]

And what will those who like to master hard maps do then? When loot yields no acceptable benefit?

The truth hurts: they will simply quit the game.

[wvhills]

guys, i don't think low prices are a problem. i like cheap gear. the problem is people wanting to sell items at inflated prices.

[rezwanahmed]

I wonder how many of you are farming Elite Shuyal for loot.

It seems to me that the economy changed massively because of the easy drops from Bael and Krunch. I thought architect pink drops are exclusive to new bosses until my kid looted Architect Helm of Will lvl 36. I thought it should come from one of the most difficult bosses (perhaps even bugged).

And yet the price of the helm dropped from 750k to current 450k within one day.

There are many alternative solution for these problems. Say, make them more competitive to earn. For example, in Oltger keep we have not only to kill mobs to spawn krunch but also need to kill Frostir to make him spawn. Same strategy apply to other level boss kill need to make bael/krunch spawn in respective spawn area. This idea just come into my mind now. The Devs could think such type of ideas. Thanks.

[drgrimmy]

Yep I am sorry to say that this is the end result of us demanding all of our special mythic and arcane gear to be top of the line for more than one season. There is just no reason for people to spend a lot of money on elite legendary gear when the gear they already have is better. The only things worth it to farm for atm are the new rings and amulets. Hopefully sts does not give in and give a boost to the mythic ring and amulets or else nothing will be worth farming for.

I hate to say I told you so, but I mentioned this in several threads before the expansion. Personally, now that my mythic gear is upgraded, I have got all the pve ap's, and there are practically no good new legendary items to farm for, I am pretty bored with the game and seriously considering quitting. Unfortunately, I think the game is pretty broken atm and has just turned into a game where people waste their money gambling on crates, as this is the only place you can get gear of any serious value :( Despite how plat driven PL was, at least anyone could farm for dragon armor without using a ton of plat and make some serious gold. The facts are, you are not going to make a serious amount on money in the game to get the 100m achievement unless you are a super merch like love or spend a ton of plat opening chests. Before the introduction of all the mythic gear I probably made close to 40m farming for gear, but I don't see this ever happening again now that there are not any legendary drops that are worth serious gold.

[KingMartin]

Personally, now that my mythic gear is upgraded, I have got all the pve ap's, and there are practically no good new legendary items to farm for, I am pretty bored with the game

Hey Grimmy,

yes, that is what I was trying to get at and what vwhills (and those who thanked him) probably misunderstood in my OP.

I do not know how many players are interested in gambling to make it to absolute ranking leaderboard. I like to be on LB for timed runs but I cant see a reason why I should spend tons of money for gambling to get Midas Touch AP although I could afford it.

I am an average plat spender (well perhaps slightly over average, burning, say, 3000 plats in a month). I popped couple of crates after expansion (I miss arcane pet so much!!!) but I burn my plat mostly on lixers and revivals.

I think one does not have to be Einstein to understand that if I dont farm damn hard Shuyal Elite, I will need less platinums. And less platinums = less bucks for the developers. And less bucks for the devs = no interest in making this game more attractive.

OK, I am sure STS has some ace in the sleeve, and so I am staying optimistic. Because today I log on and almost the only guild calls I see are:

"Anyone for Bael/Krunch hunt"?

Only elite upgraded party dares to go to farm Shuyal because the mobs hit really hard.

[Joncheese]

guys, i don't think low prices are a problem. i like cheap gear. the problem is people wanting to sell items at inflated prices.

Wvhills....

As a real life merch and AL endgamer i feel that i should get my point accross.

Whilst everyone likes cheap gear, low prices are a huge problem in the game. What you have to remember is that at the moment you are reffering to a select group of items, either 'Legendary' or 'Mythic' or 'Arcane.'
These items in my honest opinion should be as rare or as expensive as you would expect them to be as you reach end game and people should be charging alot for them. You should have to work hard for your gear, i know i did.

The market is obviously flooded after expansion with everyone and their mum trying to scrabble as much money together so that they can get the epic titles sts have given us for completing the new ap's (nice job btw) or for the various arcane items available. This doesn't necessarily need to be a bad thing though.

Why not introduce a 'capping' system where each weapon has a minimum and maximum value? In real life the reality is that any tradeable item has a base price. A price that the manufacturer is not willing to sell beneath as it would not make any money. Once this is introduced there is at least a chance of the item selling, and no chance of some idiot coming along and undercutting an item you have listed in cs for 1.5m by 500k. This act normally causes a landslide as everyone wants to sell their items first causing items to get lower and lower extremely quickly. Most people with any common sense will then just wait for it to drop to sillY cheap and then buy. The Maximum value would be there as a guide price so that people know what they should be worth....... As a kind of RRP, with STS acting as the 'Manufacturer.'

Ultimately i agree with everything Taejo has said (great post btw) and i feel that his points are extremely valid and would help sort alot of the issues out, but i also think that something needs to be done about the CS pricing structure too. Otherwise as stated in previous posts, the game will die a slow death, with end gamers like me and Taejo and the rest of our guild getting bored of going nowhere fast.

Sorry for the ramble and if it wasnt coherant, but it was rushed as im at work, if i havent thought of something please comment ;)

[KingMartin]

I ran out of thanks (wth? :) ) and so lemme thank you in this way Jon.

I worked hard to level and upgrade fast because I thought those who level up fast will enjoy extra profits coming from rare items. Profit for hard work, isn't it fair? Now what happened?

1) Lower level elites are so easy that it is actually waste of time waiting for a party (up to Bael). Compare Mali prices at the beginning of former expansions and now.

2) Some former popular hard maps are now easy in a moderate party (Oltgar may be an exception, those damned pigs bite really hard lol )

3) Shuyal Elites stuff farming is mostly replaced by easy drops and all the effort to level up and farm in new areas went in vain

OK, Shuyal mobs and their rings are still out there... what other possibilities does an average plat spender/mercher have to earn for arcane item? Or, did STS leave gambling as the only way on purpose? May be...

[wvhills]

Wvhills....

As a real life merch and AL endgamer i feel that i should get my point accross.

Whilst everyone likes cheap gear, low prices are a huge problem in the game. What you have to remember is that at the moment you are reffering to a select group of items, either 'Legendary' or 'Mythic' or 'Arcane.'
These items in my honest opinion should be as rare or as expensive as you would expect them to be as you reach end game and people should be charging alot for them. You should have to work hard for your gear, i know i did.

The market is obviously flooded after expansion with everyone and their mum trying to scrabble as much money together so that they can get the epic titles sts have given us for completing the new ap's (nice job btw) or for the various arcane items available. This doesn't necessarily need to be a bad thing though.

Why not introduce a 'capping' system where each weapon has a minimum and maximum value? In real life the reality is that any tradeable item has a base price. A price that the manufacturer is not willing to sell beneath as it would not make any money. Once this is introduced there is at least a chance of the item selling, and no chance of some idiot coming along and undercutting an item you have listed in cs for 1.5m by 500k. This act normally causes a landslide as everyone wants to sell their items first causing items to get lower and lower extremely quickly. Most people with any common sense will then just wait for it to drop to sillY cheap and then buy. The Maximum value would be there as a guide price so that people know what they should be worth....... As a kind of RRP, with STS acting as the 'Manufacturer.'

Ultimately i agree with everything Taejo has said (great post btw) and i feel that his points are extremely valid and would help sort alot of the issues out, but i also think that something needs to be done about the CS pricing structure too. Otherwise as stated in previous posts, the game will die a slow death, with end gamers like me and Taejo and the rest of our guild getting bored of going nowhere fast.

Sorry for the ramble and if it wasnt coherant, but it was rushed as im at work, if i havent thought of something please comment ;)


But what if I don't care if people have a huge stack of gold in game? What if I want to be able to get good gear quickly and get back to pvp or just playing the game? The value of items isn't set by the seller, it's set by the buyer. If things sit in auction for a long time then the seller values it too highly. Undercutting is apart of capitalism and the free market. Just because u overpaid for an item doesn't mean it's "worth" that much plus x% more. It's worth however much someone is willing to pay for it. When mythic and arcane items came out a small percentage of players were willing to pay a large amount of gold for them. The rest weren't. That small percentage of players mostly has mythic and arcane now and the not many others desire them. That's why u are seeing the drop in prices. Just because a mythic item sold for 11 million gold two months ago doesn't mean it's forever worth 11 million gold if no one is currently willing to pay that amount. The problem isn't the system. The problem (if there is one) is the percentage of players who play the game to horde up as much gold as they can.

[Uzii]

But what if I don't care if people have a huge stack of gold in game? What if I want to be able to get good gear quickly and get back to pvp or just playing the game? The value of items isn't set by the seller, it's set by the buyer. If things sit in auction for a long time then the seller values it too highly. Undercutting is apart of capitalism and the free market. Just because u overpaid for an item doesn't mean it's "worth" that much plus x% more. It's worth however much someone is willing to pay for it.

I fully agree with this. And as grimmy said the thing is players that were willing to pay high amount of gold for a gear already have mythic items so they dont need to buy anything inferior to this. So only poorer players r left and they will buy only when the price will go down.
So there may be high drops of legendary items from bosses (arena, Bael, Krunch, elite) but there can be also low, very low demand for those items. Crate gear is still cheaper and not much worse. And if players get gold they still will probably buy mythic items, of which prices also went down

[FluffNStuff]

But what if I don't care if people have a huge stack of gold in game? What if I want to be able to get good gear quickly and get back to pvp or just playing the game? The value of items isn't set by the seller, it's set by the buyer. If things sit in auction for a long time then the seller values it too highly. Undercutting is apart of capitalism and the free market. Just because u overpaid for an item doesn't mean it's "worth" that much plus x% more. It's worth however much someone is willing to pay for it. When mythic and arcane items came out a small percentage of players were willing to pay a large amount of gold for them. The rest weren't. That small percentage of players mostly has mythic and arcane now and the not many others desire them. That's why u are seeing the drop in prices. Just because a mythic item sold for 11 million gold two months ago doesn't mean it's forever worth 11 million gold if no one is currently willing to pay that amount. The problem isn't the system. The problem (if there is one) is the percentage of players who play the game to horde up as much gold as they can.

Also out of thanks, but THIS!!!

The reason the economy in AL is ~bad~ is there are way to many bad merchants that think the point is to "recoup" your gold. Sorry, but that is not how the system works.

A quote from a true merchant:


Too funny.

Unfortunately the total amount of gold in this game is pretty steady, so if you think you have an idea about how to make money, better keep it to yourself. The second you share it with everyone, it will probably stop working. For someone to make money, someone else has to lose money. So when too many people try to make money the same exact way, the result is that they usually will lose money instead.

There are a lot of players out there buying and selling for profit, and farming and making a profit. The difference between them and the ones whining about the price of items on the forums is that they realize that these price changes are all part of the game and take that into account. And yes, buyers do control the market, no matter what sellers want to think. The funniest thing about this game is the overwhelming majority of sales is actually between two merchants :topsy_turvy:

[Uzii]

But what if I don't care if people have a huge stack of gold in game? What if I want to be able to get good gear quickly and get back to pvp or just playing the game? The value of items isn't set by the seller, it's set by the buyer. If things sit in auction for a long time then the seller values it too highly. Undercutting is apart of capitalism and the free market. Just because u overpaid for an item doesn't mean it's "worth" that much plus x% more. It's worth however much someone is willing to pay for it. When mythic and arcane items came out a small percentage of players were willing to pay a large amount of gold for them. The rest weren't. That small percentage of players mostly has mythic and arcane now and the not many others desire them. That's why u are seeing the drop in prices. Just because a mythic item sold for 11 million gold two months ago doesn't mean it's forever worth 11 million gold if no one is currently willing to pay that amount. The problem isn't the system. The problem (if there is one) is the percentage of players who play the game to horde up as much gold as they can.

Haha u edited it while i was typing.

Im not so fast with english words :D

[Taejo]

Also out of thanks, but THIS!!!

The reason the economy in AL is ~bad~ is there are way to many bad merchants that think the point is to "recoup" your gold. Sorry, but that is not how the system works.

A quote from a true merchant:



There are a lot of players out there buying and selling for profit, and farming and making a profit. The difference between them and the ones whining about the price of items on the forums is that they realize that these price changes are all part of the game and take that into account. And yes, buyers do control the market, no matter what sellers want to think. The funniest thing about this game is the overwhelming majority of sales is actually between two merchants :topsy_turvy:

I am honestly getting fed up with merchants in this game - not all of them, there are still a few good, honest merchants around. The majority of them, however, are rude, condescending and greedy players who are individually trying to control the market with influential buying/selling power. I added 6 merchants to my ignore list last night while trying to sell mythic items in Paradise Pier, because I am tired of conversing with immature bigots. My message to them: I will not give in to your callow attempts at manipulating my knowledge of mythic/arcane value. You do not have any official or legitimate power in this game - no matter how much you think you do. Stop belittling people and taking advantage of other player's ignorance to actual mythic/arcane value. Get over yourself and just play the game.

[Alrisaia]

the value of items isn't set by the seller, it's set by the buyer.

vhills thanks for the good dialogue but i have to disagree with this:

firstly the seller can and does set the price in a number of markets: check out debeers and the diamond market.

secondly this isn't a true capitalist free market so those principles would only partially apply. one specific requirement of a successful capitalist market is competition of product or similar products. if mythic items has a comparable item that could be farmed their price would inherently decrease and normalize.

also i disagree with energizers statement about selling and buying winning and losing... in a successful sales transaction there are two winners:
one winner who gets currency for his goods
another winner who gets goods for his currency (perhaps in a perfect example goods would then be used in order to acquire more currency)

anyway this is a great post and i want more constructive feedback for sts to consider here.

:-)

[Carapace]

yes, keep the good feedback coming!

[IronMonkey]

Obviously, Bael and Krunch are to blame. Nerf them STS. Most of the post here came from a well known guild, you guys are learning the elite maps the way it should be and you expect to be rewarded with loots unique to that map but Bael and Krunch ruined these plan.

Why would someone farm an elite map when a normal run would yield the same result ( I'm referring to Bael/Krunch).

[KingMartin]

Most of the post here came from a well known guild, you guys are learning the elite maps the way it should be and you expect to be rewarded with loots unique to that map but Bael and Krunch ruined these plan.

Iron, thanks, that is exactly my point. I joined elite PvE end game group (and I don't have only our guild on my mind now) relatively recently (during Nordr expansion) and all logic told to me that the more hard I work on the beginning of the season, the more yield I would have. It is a logical thing, existing in real life too, isn't it?

Yesterday STS buffed/scaled the two elite bad guys to fight at 36 level which may correct things a bit. But I think for moderate group it will just take more time to take the bad guys down.

I am sure STS is monitoring their $$$ incomes very closely and they know very well if the plat income improved after the expansion. Sure, Arcane Staff crate popping helped a lot and is probably still helping, but I think substantially less plat is being burnt for revivals and lixers needed for fast Elite Shuyal runs.

We run Shuyal relatively often though. After yesterday's patch, also Wraith runs make sense. I must say that the design of Overgrow and Wraith in particular are excellent and require true team strategy for fast runs. I can't wait for some new derived content, similar to Nordr mines in the last season. I see the portal-like area with new pets in Kelys and my hopes rise :)

Generally I think Bael/Krunch should drop second-to-best gear and their unique items. Very similar to what Taejo said.

BTW, how about adding timed run on Elite Brunch (as use to call this duo), timer starting when engaged??? That might be quite challenging thing, don't you think? And even PUG can make it to LB :)

[Taejo]

Let's take a look at the major changes/additions to the game since Swede published the thread regarding the discontinuation of elite maps, and how they are impacting the motivation to farm elite Shuyal maps:

1. Rare spawns with good loot have been added to normal maps in order to appease the crowd of players who do not enjoy elite runs.

This, I recall, was an idea set forth by us forumers. The idea in theory is great - it allows for non-hardcore players to run normal maps and have a chance at some good loot, and it is also an added incentive to the hard-core players who get bored from time to time and want something to do. STS listened to us and implemented Bael and Krunch. Let's consider their pros and cons in terms of their overall impact on gameplay:

Pros:

1) Their spawn rates are rare but fair.
2) The maps are not timed runs, so you can invite friends/guild mates granted you didn't lock the map via /partyinvite 000.
3) The maps they can be found on scale up for a L35/36 players which helps PvE kill count/XP for player/pets.
4) They are not absurdly hard for the average player, even though they are elite bosses.
5) They have 100% drop rate of elite loot, so the payoff of searching is fair - also tied in to a con.

Cons:

1) Because their drop rate is 100%, they have become the preferred boss to farm even for some end-gamers. More reasons tied into this below.
2) Their loot table is far too extensive. It was a clever idea to throw in some 'old school' gear, but this ultimately hurts the game's item inventory/economy more so than it improves it. The primary reason I say this is because having items like L35 Nordr weapons/armor on Bael/Krunch's loot table almost completely negates any reason/desire to run elite Nordr maps. Additionally, having elite Shuyal loot on their loot table is a huge detriment to the existence of elite players. I personally do not find it fair that the average player doesn't have to put forth the same effort in order to obtain the same gear that end-gamers are running elite maps to find. What do I mean by effort? Learning the pulls of elite maps (spending hours/gold/potions), learning team dynamics within a party, and formulating strategy to run the maps effectively and efficiently. It takes no effort to grind for hours, find Bael/Krunch, invite your friends, and loot a L36 Architect Plate of Will - something I should have to kill elite Inan'hesh for!
3) They only have a few unique items in their loot table which should be the primary reason for hunting them in the first place, but it's not.

My proposed solution to fix Bael/Krunch in order to appease to both the elite end-gamers and casual gamers, while keeping the economy safe from crashing:

1. Remove all L35/36 Shuyal and Nordr loot from them. The Nordr campaign is scaled up for a reason, is it not? Isn't it to give us extended elite content to adventure for elite loot? Bael/Krunch should not allow the opportunity for those particular campaign's elite items to drop on normal maps. The rest of the loot table: Brackenridge, Rook's Nest, Dead City and Kraken can stay. This loot scaling up only makes sense because it adds variety to the game's end-game inventory. Also, no one is really farming that content because this game severely lacks the opportunity to farm twink gear like in PL and SL (another topic worthy of a thread...).

2. Slightly improve the stats of Bael/Krunch's unique items (e.g. Wrath of Bael, Troll Necromatic Ring) and make them ultra rare. The point is to make these items highly desired by end-gamers because they will be on par with the newer gear - just be different in terms of stats and adding variation to someone's wish list. It gives players a special reason to hunt for Bael/Krunch rather than going in with the expectation that they will find some expensive Nordr/Shuyal drop to sell. Give us a reason to actually farm them for a useful items, but requires time, dedication and possibly multiple killings to acquire. Their drop rate of chests is fine, because it is their rare item. Legendary items, if possible, need to be tiered so that the 'common' legendary drops are the scaled up Brackenridge-Kraken gear while the 'rare' legendary drops (possibly requiring a re-roll to obtain) would be the unique items such as mentioned above.

2. Rare legendary drops have been added to "trash mobs" of elite maps.

Yet another idea presented by this forum community within Swede's thread. I think this is fantastic, and a huge step forward to fixing elite runs. I think more great ideas/additions can stem from this and ultimately make elite maps very enjoyable. One idea that compliments the Bael/Krunch implementation is having special rare spawns within elite maps as well, with a decreased rarity and smaller loot table (maybe just Archon Ring and/or Golden Puzzlebox). Maybe Captain Rutger got lost and ended up in Shuyal... :) From my perspective, the largest problem with elite trash mobs is that only a small percent of them has to be cleared in order to spawn the boss. This, in my mind, completely takes away from the challenges of the game and unbalances the risk vs reward factor greatly. One solution to this is to scale the trash mobs down a bit in terms of HPs (so that they will be cleared quicker, but not as easily as normal maps) and increase the number of mobs required to be killed in order to spawn the boss (overall, the time it takes to run a map should be about the same). To balance this change in order to maintain the shear challenge of elite maps, slightly increase the boss' HPs - they won't necessarily be "harder", because they won't hit harder, but they will require a longer duration of survive-ability tactics to defeat. This prospective change to the trash mobs/bosses may also help the players who don't enjoy running elite maps 'because they take took long', while keeping the risk vs reward factor in tact.

3. Increased gold and potion drops to barrels/chests.

This is a very satisfying modification that will help players with the burden of paying for pets and potions. However, I would still like to see more potion drops from actual mobs and especially without any correlation with how many potions a player has on hand. I could be wrong, but from my experience, I only see potions drop with I have <25 of either type. Potions should drop no matter how many you have stocked.

4. Improved stats of L32+ epic items.

I am really enjoying this, because again it creates a larger inventory of gears that are usable and marketable. I've ran out of time, I may come back to edit this later and expound upon it.

----------

Additional areas of the game that need to be re-looked at because they're greatly effecting the motivation to farm elite Shuyal maps:

1. Shuyal Arena - please nerf the drop rates or give this place it's own, unique armor/weapons. Or, if that suggestion requires too much time and resources, simply remove the Architect gear and just leave the Puzzleboxes; but, also add a daily quest to maintain any incentive of running the Arena for loot. I mentioned a pretty decent idea for a quest in a previous reply to this thread.

2. Drop rate of mythic items out of crates. Players have very little reason to spend their hard-earned gold on Shuyal's legendary items when they can just purchase a mythic item with a bit more time and saving. Honestly (and this is coming from a player who has two toons dressed in upgraded mythic), I'd rather see a bunch of end-gamers running around in a diverse variety of legendary and epic items than have us all in the exact same gear. Unfortunately this would also impact end-game dynamics in PvP, so it's a complicated issue. Also, I am probably not seeing the big picture and statistics that go along with this complaint. I have no idea how many crates are actually being opened per day/week/month - maybe the drop rate is reasonably low.

[Alrisaia]

Obviously, Bael and Krunch are to blame. Nerf them STS. Most of the post here came from a well known guild, you guys are learning the elite maps the way it should be and you expect to be rewarded with loots unique to that map but Bael and Krunch ruined these plan.

Why would someone farm an elite map when a normal run would yield the same result ( I'm referring to Bael/Krunch).
how right you are.

[Joncheese]

Let's take a look at the major changes/additions to the game since Swede published the thread regarding the discontinuation of elite maps, and how they are impacting the motivation to farm elite Shuyal maps:

1. Rare spawns with good loot have been added to normal maps in order to appease the crowd of players who do not enjoy elite runs.

This, I recall, was an idea set forth by us forumers. The idea in theory is great - it allows for non-hardcore players to run normal maps and have a chance at some good loot, and it is also an added incentive to the hard-core players who get bored from time to time and want something to do. STS listened to us and implemented Bael and Krunch. Let's consider their pros and cons in terms of their overall impact on gameplay:

Pros:

1) Their spawn rates are rare but fair.
2) The maps are not timed runs, so you can invite friends/guild mates granted you didn't lock the map via /partyinvite 000.
3) The maps they can be found on scale up for a L35/36 players which helps PvE kill count/XP for player/pets.
4) They are not absurdly hard for the average player, even though they are elite bosses.
5) They have 100% drop rate of elite loot, so the payoff of searching is fair - also tied in to a con.

Cons:

1) Because their drop rate is 100%, they have become the preferred boss to farm even for some end-gamers. More reasons tied into this below.
2) Their loot table is far too extensive. It was a clever idea to throw in some 'old school' gear, but this ultimately hurts the game's item inventory/economy more so than it improves it. The primary reason I say this is because having items like L35 Nordr weapons/armor on Bael/Krunch's loot table almost completely negates any reason/desire to run elite Nordr maps. Additionally, having elite Shuyal loot on their loot table is a huge detriment to the existence of elite players. I personally do not find it fair that the average player doesn't have to put forth the same effort in order to obtain the same gear that end-gamers are running elite maps to find. What do I mean by effort? Learning the pulls of elite maps (spending hours/gold/potions), learning team dynamics within a party, and formulating strategy to run the maps effectively and efficiently. It takes no effort to grind for hours, find Bael/Krunch, invite your friends, and loot a L36 Architect Plate of Will - something I should have to kill elite Inan'hesh for!
3) They only have a few unique items in their loot table which should be the primary reason for hunting them in the first place, but it's not.

My proposed solution to fix Bael/Krunch in order to appease to both the elite end-gamers and casual gamers, while keeping the economy safe from crashing:

1. Remove all L35/36 Shuyal and Nordr loot from them. The Nordr campaign is scaled up for a reason, is it not? Isn't it to give us extended elite content to adventure for elite loot? Bael/Krunch should not allow the opportunity for those particular campaign's elite items to drop on normal maps. The rest of the loot table: Brackenridge, Rook's Nest, Dead City and Kraken can stay. This loot scaling up only makes sense because it adds variety to the game's end-game inventory. Also, no one is really farming that content because this game severely lacks the opportunity to farm twink gear like in PL and SL (another topic worthy of a thread...).

2. Slightly improve the stats of Bael/Krunch's unique items (e.g. Wrath of Bael, Troll Necromatic Ring) and make them ultra rare. The point is to make these items highly desired by end-gamers because they will be on par with the newer gear - just be different in terms of stats and adding variation to someone's wish list. It gives players a special reason to hunt for Bael/Krunch rather than going in with the expectation that they will find some expensive Nordr/Shuyal drop to sell. Give us a reason to actually farm them for a useful items, but requires time, dedication and possibly multiple killings to acquire. Their drop rate of chests is fine, because it is their rare item. Legendary items, if possible, need to be tiered so that the 'common' legendary drops are the scaled up Brackenridge-Kraken gear while the 'rare' legendary drops (possibly requiring a re-roll to obtain) would be the unique items such as mentioned above.

2. Rare legendary drops have been added to "trash mobs" of elite maps.

Yet another idea presented by this forum community within Swede's thread. I think this is fantastic, and a huge step forward to fixing elite runs. I think more great ideas/additions can stem from this and ultimately make elite maps very enjoyable. One idea that compliments the Bael/Krunch implementation is having special rare spawns within elite maps as well, with a decreased rarity and smaller loot table (maybe just Archon Ring and/or Golden Puzzlebox). Maybe Captain Rutger got lost and ended up in Shuyal... :) From my perspective, the largest problem with elite trash mobs is that only a small percent of them has to be cleared in order to spawn the boss. This, in my mind, completely takes away from the challenges of the game and unbalances the risk vs reward factor greatly. One solution to this is to scale the trash mobs down a bit in terms of HPs (so that they will be cleared quicker, but not as easily as normal maps) and increase the number of mobs required to be killed in order to spawn the boss (overall, the time it takes to run a map should be about the same). To balance this change in order to maintain the shear challenge of elite maps, slightly increase the boss' HPs - they won't necessarily be "harder", because they won't hit harder, but they will require a longer duration of survive-ability tactics to defeat. This prospective change to the trash mobs/bosses may also help the players who don't enjoy running elite maps 'because they take took long', while keeping the risk vs reward factor in tact.

3. Increased gold and potion drops to barrels/chests.

This is a very satisfying modification that will help players with the burden of paying for pets and potions. However, I would still like to see more potion drops from actual mobs and especially without any correlation with how many potions a player has on hand. I could be wrong, but from my experience, I only see potions drop with I have <25 of either type. Potions should drop no matter how many you have stocked.

4. Improved stats of L32+ epic items.

I am really enjoying this, because again it creates a larger inventory of gears that are usable and marketable. I've ran out of time, I may come back to edit this later and expound upon it.

----------

Additional areas of the game that need to be re-looked at because they're greatly effecting the motivation to farm elite Shuyal maps:

1. Shuyal Arena - please nerf the drop rates or give this place it's own, unique armor/weapons. Or, if that suggestion requires too much time and resources, simply remove the Architect gear and just leave the Puzzleboxes; but, also add a daily quest to maintain any incentive of running the Arena for loot. I mentioned a pretty decent idea for a quest in a previous reply to this thread.

2. Drop rate of mythic items out of crates. Players have very little reason to spend their hard-earned gold on Shuyal's legendary items when they can just purchase a mythic item with a bit more time and saving. Honestly (and this is coming from a player who has two toons dressed in upgraded mythic), I'd rather see a bunch of end-gamers running around in a diverse variety of legendary and epic items than have us all in the exact same gear. Unfortunately this would also impact end-game dynamics in PvP, so it's a complicated issue. Also, I am probably not seeing the big picture and statistics that go along with this complaint. I have no idea how many crates are actually being opened per day/week/month - maybe the drop rate is reasonably low.

Give this man a job :)

[Joncheese]

vhills thanks for the good dialogue but i have to disagree with this:

firstly the seller can and does set the price in a number of markets: check out debeers and the diamond market.

secondly this isn't a true capitalist free market so those principles would only partially apply. one specific requirement of a successful capitalist market is competition of product or similar products. if mythic items has a comparable item that could be farmed their price would inherently decrease and normalize.

also i disagree with energizers statement about selling and buying winning and losing... in a successful sales transaction there are two winners:
one winner who gets currency for his goods
another winner who gets goods for his currency (perhaps in a perfect example goods would then be used in order to acquire more currency)

anyway this is a great post and i want more constructive feedback for sts to consider here.

:-)

Thanks alrisaia, this is what I was trying to say but you always word things alot better than me.

Also worth remembering that STS have now set us a couple of new AP's..... Goldfinger and Midas touch. Thus suggesting that everyone an obtain this title. But how if the market is in ruins and u cannot sell anything?

All of the players in our guild don't want money to hoard, we want money to spend. I'm not doing this cos I love merching, I actually hate it. I'd rather be organising a tactical assault in shuyal etc...... I'm doing this cos I want a staff to make me the best I can be.

For our guild it has and always will be about the enjoyment of the game, and the people that play it ;)

[Alrisaia]

1. Rare spawns with good loot have been added to normal maps in order to appease the crowd of players who do not enjoy elite runs.
2. Rare legendary drops have been added to "trash mobs" of elite maps.
3. Increased gold and potion drops to barrels/chests.
4. Improved stats of L32+ epic items.

Thanks for bringing up these changes Taejo – I believe this is where the market for Elite pinks began to fall. I’d like to chime in with my thoughts about this and here we go:


1. Rare spawns with good loot have been added to normal maps in order to appease the crowd of players who do not enjoy elite runs.

I’m really torn about this, because I think having these ultra rare spawns that just pop in and surprise the average player with a HAHA!!! I PWN YOU attitude (Imagine if you didn’t know about these guys and you were just running the map with a pug at about lv 23 or so… in a not so strong guild – OMG you would crap yourself HAHA)


Anyway – I believe this adds a great element to the game and love that they’re here. Allow me to address Taejo’s CON # 1 because I believe addressing the root cause of this will inherently correct the other CONs

Problem(s):

1) They have become the preferred boss to farm.
2) They drop the BEST gear in the game aside from mythic gear.
3) They only have a couple of unique items in their loot table



Impact:

• Because they have become the preferred boss to farm, there are few if any pugs for Elite maps. Thus driving less and less people to learn the end game content.
• The gear they drop has flooded the market, causing even end gamers like my guild to re-evaluate who we farm –a good part of the guild has turned to farming them for gold, I imagine the same is true for many end game guilds.
• The high desirability of these unique items has increased problem one’s impact since they are now a highly preferred boss to farm, this exacerbates the impact of both problem 1 and 2.



Solution(s)

In a nutshell I believe this would be a good start, and by no means do I believe in any stretch of any imagination that I have the end all be all answer I’m just whiteboarding ideas here:

Reduce their spawn rate or change their spawn criteria (boss @50% triggers spawn roll would be good – and how fun would that be for the players who enjoy the regular map content).
boss @ 50% and BAM Bael II spawns OMG!!! RUN!!!!! – FYI, I very very very rarely have run in this game, but fighting two bosses at one time seems much more appropriate and fun than what Bael and Krunch are today.

Change their loot tables – as Taejo stated - remove the Nordr and Shuyal content from their drop tables. Additionally – if they drop lv 35 gear from Kraken, so should Kraken Isles Elite… (but that’s another discussion) – so perhaps that gear should be removed as well.

I have no problem with them dropping Elite Chests from either map – perhaps only make them Elite Chests III and make them non-tradeable / non-sellable in the CS… force people to open them and not flood the market with Elite Golden chests, something that used to be a primary source of income for an Elite Farmer.

In all fairness I don’t believe Bael and Krunch who spawn in a normal map should drop the highest level Elite Gear at all. The reason these guys are here is in order to appease the crowd of players who do not enjoy elite runs. People who don’t run Elite Maps – don’t really need elite gear, if they enjoy running normal maps this is still easily doable with secondary Legendary gear. Even in PVP Skill>Spec>Gear… I beat a Maul Warrior in PVP the other day just messing around (without AS in my skillset and without using crits).



2. Rare legendary drops have been added to "trash mobs" of elite maps.

So so cool. How about a little more variety in these drops. How about also, making them drop some gold – or increase the amount of gold in the chests they’re guarding… I got 2g from an Elite Chest in Shuyal tower the other day… I seriously LOL’d… HAHA.
If every Elite Mob dropped 5g minimum 50g max, there would be a real reason to farm trash mobs in elite. The potion cost to kill elite mobs is astronomical and since the legendary gear you get from the bosses is dropping from Bael and Krunch (see above) it’s difficult to make up the gold. Currently the only gold I’m making is from rare Brunch drops.

3. Increased gold and potion drops to barrels/chests.

OK… so I don’t think so – see above. I opened chests in Shuyal Tower and got 2g from each one. I’ve never seen a potion drop, maybe I don’t break enough barrels?? FYI – I don’t typically go to normal maps… perhaps the elite map barrels / chests tables weren’t updated?

4. Improved stats of L32+ epic items.

For me this is a whole other thread, but I’ll touch on it here.

One of the reasons we have players running around looking like clones is that the gear is always better than the prior season’s scaled up gear. IE the lv 35 architect gear is identical in stats (with the exception of procs) to the lv 35 Elite Nordr gear. I believe that a number of things could and should be addressed with the way gear scales. I made a graph below because a picture sometimes helps me to get my point across.

40852
Basically my thought process is that the gear from each respective xpac should shine brighter than all other gear during its reign. So, from lv 1-20 it would be original content gear. 21-25 the best gear in the game should come from dead city. 26-30 Kraken. Etc…
If gear scaled this way, and loot tables were slightly adjusted in the respective elite maps, we could farm for twink gear. I do believe we took a step in the right direction with this change, but it’s not quite there. Lv 35 gear from nordr is just not worth farming since it doesn’t outshine the lv 35 gear from shuyal. If it did – I would farm the heck out of Nordr. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong.

[Crowsfoot]

As players we focus on ideals of game. We want elite farming to be entertaining and the highest reward (obviously). However STS is the game designer, their goal is to make money (as if we never noticed). Somewhere in between is the ideal. The best analogy of this is socialism versus capitalism. We, the players, want the game playable for all and game play/time spent leads to high reward. Thus the desire, at least for me, is to get strong enough to play w/o the NEED ( I stress need) to buy plat. Where as STS wants gameplay to be rewarding (so we keep playing) but have locked be the ultimate temptation/power. Its pretty clear that w/ enough locked opened a player can be better geared (and because of arcane weapons extremely stronger) than me in a week or two. Rather anoying to me, who started in late October, but I recognize STS needs to turn a profit so I get over it (however I wish plays power was slightly lower). Therefore STS wants all in game items to hold lesser value than those inner rare plat drops (I hate that arcane eggs are only locked dropped). And...

--bah gtg, will continue later--

[IronMonkey]

Let me add, each season introduced different types of gear, with new gears better than the previous gears, as follows.

Season 1- Berserkers/Juggernauts(warrior),Cloak/Leather(rogue) and Demonlogist(mage)
Season 2 -Demonlords
Season 3 - Sealords/Bloodhammers
Season 4 - Noble gears, and
Season 5 - Architects

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think it would be better if the older maps (say Brack to Ydra) would only drop elite gears scaled up to lvl 16 and Dead city maps scaled to 21, and Kraken, lvl 26 and so and so forth. By then we could revisit these old elite maps and farm for discontinued gears, which would make farming more diverse.

What is happening is the best gears at low levels have been hoarded by rich players, if you wanna start the game as a newbie using the gold the quests give you, you have no chance of obtaining the best gear atm because the price are way too high, except for crappy pinks inside crates. There are maybe some valuable pinks inside crates but the game will look like a "pay to win" game if the only access to the best gear is by opening crates.

Thus, I would suggest, make those discontinued items farmable again, the farming will be much diverse and players (who would like to twink) can compete with other players.

[Emmacheese]

I love this! :angel:


Let me add, each season introduced different types of gear, with new gears better than the previous gears, as follows.

Season 1- Berserkers/Juggernauts(warrior),Cloak/Leather(rogue) and Demonlogist(mage)
Season 2 -Demonlords
Season 3 - Sealords/Bloodhammers
Season 4 - Noble gears, and
Season 5 - Architects

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think it would be better if the older maps (say Brack to Ydra) would only drop elite gears scaled up to lvl 16 and Dead city maps scaled to 21, and Kraken, lvl 26 and so and so forth. By then we could revisit these old elite maps and farm for discontinued gears, which would make farming more diverse.

What is happening is the best gears at low levels have been hoarded by rich players, if you wanna start the game as a newbie using the gold the quests give you, you have no chance of obtaining the best gear atm because the price are way too high, except for crappy pinks inside crates. There are maybe some valuable pinks inside crates but the game will look like a "pay to win" game if the only access to the best gear is by opening crates.

Thus, I would suggest, make those discontinued items farmable again, the farming will be much diverse and players (who would like to twink) can compete with other players.

[Alrisaia]

Let me add, each season introduced different types of gear, with new gears better than the previous gears, as follows.

Season 1- Berserkers/Juggernauts(warrior),Cloak/Leather(rogue) and Demonlogist(mage)
Season 2 -Demonlords
Season 3 - Sealords/Bloodhammers
Season 4 - Noble gears, and
Season 5 - Architects

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think it would be better if the older maps (say Brack to Ydra) would only drop elite gears scaled up to lvl 16 and Dead city maps scaled to 21, and Kraken, lvl 26 and so and so forth. By then we could revisit these old elite maps and farm for discontinued gears, which would make farming more diverse.

What is happening is the best gears at low levels have been hoarded by rich players, if you wanna start the game as a newbie using the gold the quests give you, you have no chance of obtaining the best gear atm because the price are way too high, except for crappy pinks inside crates. There are maybe some valuable pinks inside crates but the game will look like a "pay to win" game if the only access to the best gear is by opening crates.

Thus, I would suggest, make those discontinued items farmable again, the farming will be much diverse and players (who would like to twink) can compete with other players.

Yep - exactly what I'm trying to get accross with my graph.

In fact - if the drops were randomized between lv

Original Drops lv 10 - 20
Dead City: 15 - 25
Kraken Isles 20 - 30
Nordr 25 - 35
Shuyal 30-40

and on and on... I believe it would be a more unique and profitable experience to farm

[xcainnblecterx]

So back in topic, yep ive farmed shuyal. Amazingly it wasnt to hard and couldve been because i had a arcane warrio with Samuel but i found it quite fun compared to the boredom of elites on other expansions. Also fought elite heart and if you fight.that thing you'll know why some prices are high as that thing is hell. Try fighting it and then want to sell a pink drop for 100k minimum

[Nitamana]

some long post from Alrisaia and Taejo. Amazing!

[Taejo]

Let me add, each season introduced different types of gear, with new gears better than the previous gears, as follows.

Season 1- Berserkers/Juggernauts(warrior),Cloak/Leather(rogue) and Demonlogist(mage)
Season 2 -Demonlords
Season 3 - Sealords/Bloodhammers
Season 4 - Noble gears, and
Season 5 - Architects

Correct me if I'm wrong, I think it would be better if the older maps (say Brack to Ydra) would only drop elite gears scaled up to lvl 16 and Dead city maps scaled to 21, and Kraken, lvl 26 and so and so forth. By then we could revisit these old elite maps and farm for discontinued gears, which would make farming more diverse.

What is happening is the best gears at low levels have been hoarded by rich players, if you wanna start the game as a newbie using the gold the quests give you, you have no chance of obtaining the best gear atm because the price are way too high, except for crappy pinks inside crates. There are maybe some valuable pinks inside crates but the game will look like a "pay to win" game if the only access to the best gear is by opening crates.

Thus, I would suggest, make those discontinued items farmable again, the farming will be much diverse and players (who would like to twink) can compete with other players.

Yes, agreed. Many people don't realize that twink gear farming is a huge part of any strong MMORPG's economy and overall enjoyment of game play for end-gamers. PL embraces this aspect, however, AL has left it out almost entirely (only chance is to crack open old chests [Golden II, Banded II, etc.]). I hate to see good, enjoyable content just sitting in the dust and rotting away. This is the case with places like elite Brackenridge and Dead City, aside from venturing there for a LB timed run attempt.

[FluffNStuff]

Yes, agreed. Many people don't realize that twink gear farming is a huge part of any strong MMORPG's economy and overall enjoyment of game play for end-gamers. PL embraces this aspect, however, AL has left it out almost entirely (only chance is to crack open old chests [Golden II, Banded II, etc.]). I hate to see good, enjoyable content just sitting in the dust and rotting away. This is the case with places like elite Brackenridge and Dead City, aside from venturing there for a LB timed run attempt.

The problem with 'twink farming' is it over ran leveling in PL. New players trying to enjoy the content would get torn past by over powered toons 50 levels to high for the content that would destroy the boss before they knew what was going on.
Now, in AL, even the 'low levels' are Level Based, like when a bunch of 31's go farm Jarl, it is ONLY 31's, they are not tearing past level 4's and 5's anymore, so that problem is solved. Of course, if twink farming is farming regular low levels for pinks, well then, uhh ... yeah, that would be profitable for all of 30 seconds before the market floods to pieces. Take a look at any pink Jarl drops. That is part of the issue with what you are asking for. As soon as these items ARE droppable, they will be over farmed to death, their value will drop to hundreds of gold, and everyone will be right back here calling for a nerf.

I will repeat what I have repeated since 2010. Players don't want the drops increased, they only want them increased for themselves. Note, this is not an insult or saying players are selfish, it is just human nature, and I am the same way.

[Taejo]

The problem with 'twink farming' is it over ran leveling in PL. New players trying to enjoy the content would get torn past by over powered toons 50 levels to high for the content that would destroy the boss before they knew what was going on.
Now, in AL, even the 'low levels' are Level Based, like when a bunch of 31's go farm Jarl, it is ONLY 31's, they are not tearing past level 4's and 5's anymore, so that problem is solved. Of course, if twink farming is farming regular low levels for pinks, well then, uhh ... yeah, that would be profitable for all of 30 seconds before the market floods to pieces. Take a look at any pink Jarl drops. That is part of the issue with what you are asking for. As soon as these items ARE droppable, they will be over farmed to death, their value will drop to hundreds of gold, and everyone will be right back here calling for a nerf.

I will repeat what I have repeated since 2010. Players don't want the drops increased, they only want them increased for themselves. Note, this is not an insult or saying players are selfish, it is just human nature, and I am the same way.

Yes, good points. Hopefully someone like Energizeric can drop by and propose a better idea. I'd still like to see a more enjoyable way to farm twink loot implemented - I'm sure we can make this happen.

EDIT: Maybe create a separate thread on this. Let's not stray too far off this OP's topic. My fault for mentioning twink loot :)

[Alrisaia]

The problem with 'twink farming' is it over ran leveling in PL. New players trying to enjoy the content would get torn past by over powered toons 50 levels to high for the content that would destroy the boss before they knew what was going on.
Now, in AL, even the 'low levels' are Level Based, like when a bunch of 31's go farm Jarl, it is ONLY 31's, they are not tearing past level 4's and 5's anymore, so that problem is solved. Of course, if twink farming is farming regular low levels for pinks, well then, uhh ... yeah, that would be profitable for all of 30 seconds before the market floods to pieces. Take a look at any pink Jarl drops. That is part of the issue with what you are asking for. As soon as these items ARE droppable, they will be over farmed to death, their value will drop to hundreds of gold, and everyone will be right back here calling for a nerf.

I will repeat what I have repeated since 2010. Players don't want the drops increased, they only want them increased for themselves. Note, this is not an insult or saying players are selfish, it is just human nature, and I am the same way.

Fluff – the OP is actually inferring that Bael drops are the problem here and for drops to be decreased. What King is saying in his OP, is that the Elite Gear that drops from Elite Bosses in Elite Shuyal are so common (we believe because of Shuyal Arena and Bael / Krunch), that their value has dropped to close to nothing comparatively speaking with prior xpacs where the only place to farm was in Elite Dungeons.

I believe the drop rates are about right to be perfectly honest. Without a reroll I get about 1 top loot drop in 30 runs (Malison from Bael I, Snaggletooth / Wrathjaw from Antee) With reroll it’s about 1 in 10 – which lines up perfectly with the reroll % modifiers etc…

I always enjoy reading your posts Fluff and want to take this twink discussion further :)
Trying to stay on topic – and I’d love to move our discussion to the Suggestion thread and have some good whiteboarding about how we can make Twink farming *work* in this game.

[FluffNStuff]

Fluff – the OP is actually inferring that Bael drops are the problem here and for drops to be decreased. What King is saying in his OP, is that the Elite Gear that drops from Elite Bosses in Elite Shuyal are so common (we believe because of Shuyal Arena and Bael / Krunch), that their value has dropped to close to nothing comparatively speaking with prior xpacs where the only place to farm was in Elite Dungeons.

I believe the drop rates are about right to be perfectly honest. Without a reroll I get about 1 top loot drop in 30 runs (Malison from Bael I, Snaggletooth / Wrathjaw from Antee) With reroll it’s about 1 in 10 – which lines up perfectly with the reroll % modifiers etc…

I always enjoy reading your posts Fluff and want to take this twink discussion further :)
Trying to stay on topic – and I’d love to move our discussion to the Suggestion thread and have some good whiteboarding about how we can make Twink farming *work* in this game.

Sorry, the Fluffy brain tends to multitask and was responding to the suggestion of releasing of discontinued gear as farmable.
And yes, of course having Bael/Krunk drop the current best farmed gear is wiping the market. They made a lot of sense as mid season addons to give players that have ALREADY gotten tired of farming the true leets like crazy something else to do. But having them at the beginning of the campaign and having them drop the top gear is a bad idea. Didn't they learn this already with the elite crates, when they first fixed it so Jarl could not give Top Elite level items, and then they finally capped him at 25 since that did not even stop players?

[Arcane Maniac]

3 rogues 1 mage

[Jetzzz]

Most of you guys that want to nerfed the drop from bael and krunch is only thinking about yourself.
I think bael and krunch is the only hope for "poor people" in the game.
I mean there are still lots of lv 35 player that still using lv31 armor & weapon.
When they want to farm elite, ussually the good player that know their bad status will quickly leave them so it will be more difficult for them to farm.

[Zeus]

Most of you guys that want to nerfed the drop from bael and krunch is only thinking about yourself.
I think bael and krunch is the only hope for "poor people" in the game.
I mean there are still lots of lv 35 player that still using lv31 armor & weapon.
When they want to farm elite, ussually the good player that know their bad status will quickly leave them so it will be more difficult for them to farm.

Bael & Krunch will still drop really good stuff - just not Shuyal elite items.

[KingMartin]

Most of you guys that want to nerfed the drop from bael and krunch is only thinking about yourself.
I think bael and krunch is the only hope for "poor people" in the game.
When they want to farm elite, ussually the good player that know their bad status will quickly leave them so it will be more difficult for them to farm.

With all due respect, I strongly disagree. This is what a guild is for. Couple of months ago I was in a guild (one of the TOP 3) and within 3 weeks I did not have a single run with a member, let alone with an officer. No matter how I begged for Skull Cove AP, which we now run close to LB time.

You just confirm what I was saying about easy drops ruining the game. So, instead of searching for a good guild, the "poor" player gets an easy drop. And then what? He will PUG Skull Cove?

And one more remark: Skill > Gear to a big extent. And that Team > Gear is obvious.

[Taejo]

I think where we currently stand on this topic, is that some serious changes need to be considered with Bael/Krunch's loot tables. It's pretty sad to log in every day to see friends and different guilds not running elite maps, but hunting Bael/Krunch - because that's where the best risk vs reward is right now.

Thank you for starting this thread, King, and thank you everyone for the feedback thus far.

[Alrisaia]

also just to throw out a wiifm for sts to re-evaluate bael and krunch loot tables...
i don't know a single player who has ever shelled out a plat for a revive at bael or krunch not do i see people using alucklixer

just saying

[KingMartin]

Good news is that I hear Bael and Krunch spawn got rarer.

Bad thing is that I hear they can drop even Ensorcelled rings at level 36. Now, that gets really funny :D

Is there any desired item in the game (besides expensive arcanes), for which you must work really hard and get well-deserved reward?

I think the time is not far when all end gamers would have the same gear and perhaps only owning arcane items will make a difference. But perhaps it is a good thing, because skill > gear to a big extent. I can confirm this from PvE point of view (positively) and even more PvP (negatively, lol) :)

[Alrisaia]

I think that's just a rumor King... perhaps we should start some rumors that he's been removed :)