Regarding new update

[Uziscata]

Alright I will try again.
So the new update states that mages will now be able to crit more and wars can do more damage.
Wars already do enough dmg, they can not have everything in pvp, high health shield when healed, and with maul and sameul its pretty much impossible to now beat. Most wars with maul already have more dmg than rogues and same goes for mages. Even before the new update good mages had more dmg than rogues.
So in this case what are rogues good for?

We are kind of becoming useless in the pvp world.
All we are good for is pve.
What was the point of the old update where dmg was decreased if its been increased for both classes accept rogues.
Rogues dmg and crit is much less. I feel like I barely ever crit these days, even with ribbit I sometimes dont even crit.

Maybe you guys can have a look into why this is the case, and my skills are pretty much maxed crit.
And regarding hooks buff, is even worse now because quills daggers are still better.

Just consider the fact that you have now increased dmg for warriors, fair enough sometimes for warriors that dont have maul or sameul pet, but try fighting a warrior with maul and sameul pet or even a 5vs5 where the other 5 all have maul and sameul. Its pretty much impossible to win.

Please think about this. Thank you

[Kaytar]

Ib4l xD

[Zeus]

Let me reiterate...

How does one tell if classes are balanced? 1v1, correct? Prior to this update, any class had the chance to beat any class! Now? The case is still true, but the advantages heavily favor warriors and mages.

Secondly, what were rogues good at? Kill stealing, right? Even after this update, y'all that were complaining will STILL see that rogues are scoring the highest on the kill board. Now, why is that? They are the single target damage dealers, meaning the likelihood of then taking the kill is great, although now mages are most likely doing the most damage with their DoT skills now.

Thirdly, the mana issue was already our crutch! It prevented us from spamming skills and taking out the entire team! To make these upgrades to other classes was totally not cool, as it was already difficult to kill classes considering even a singular fight had a good chance to consume at least 60-80% of our mana without a way to regen it. This is something no other class has to deal with.

Fourthly, we have the LEAST defense out of all the four classes, due to a sorcerer's shield and other defensive/offensive spells like stuns and DoTs. The trade off is high & rapid damage at the expense of rapidly depleting mana. Now? What are we left with? Sorcerers who are capable of doing as much, if not more damage & warriors that suck our mana bar dry while still having full health.

At the end of the day though, people who play other classes are still going to think rogues are OP because we kill steal. We are the assassin class, it's what we do. However, try fighting a rogue by itself. What happens? The rogue is usually a dead rogue.

[Limsi]

It's just disappointing how some people take the leaderboard as the basis of how O.P a certain class is. I'm pretty sure that the moment I chose rogue as my toon, I was up for some low survivability yet the capability of dealing the most damage on a single target. I know we all could agree upon that. Mages would follow in dealing X number of damage and warriors would fall in the last place. Face the fact : Rogues are meant for killing in one versus one situations while having the tradeoff of having low hp and mana.

However, the way I see things now is a result of pure sourgraping and selfish desires that resulted to an unfavorable imbalance and unfairness to a rogue's part. Am I saying that only rogues have the license to grab all of the team's kills? Heck no, I've seen non mythic mages who managed to kill a bunch after every match (Mages like Swexcist) and he was able to do this consistently. Let me be clear on that, everyone is entitled to kill yet there are those classes which are made for certain situations. Before, mages who use crit pets managed to dish out 1.5-1.8k dmg on a single lightng shot, the ability to stun and put down a whole team using curse. Now, to add more critical damage on DoT effects per tick went a little bit overboard. Yes I have tested it already in 5 matches of pvp right after the update.

I'm unsure how dev's would respond to this issue but doing something with the mana pool would at least help rogues get back on their feet. No there's no such thing as one hit K.Os to mages unless he is heavily undergeared or low leveled. I'm after the balance, not the one who seeks for unnecessary advantage over a certain class.

[Uziscata]

It's just disappointing how some people take the leaderboard as the basis of how O.P a certain class is. I'm pretty sure that the moment I chose rogue as my toon, I was up for some low survivability yet the capability of dealing the most damage on a single target. I know we all could agree upon that. Mages would follow in dealing X number of damage and warriors would fall in the last place. Face the fact : Rogues are meant for killing in one versus one situations while having the tradeoff of having low hp and mana.

However, the way I see things now is a result of pure sourgraping and selfish desires that resulted to an unfavorable imbalance and unfairness to a rogue's part. Am I saying that only rogues have the license to grab all of the team's kills? Heck no, I've seen non mythic mages who managed to kill a bunch after every match (Mages like Swexcist) and he was able to do this consistently. Let me be clear on that, everyone is entitled to kill yet there are those classes which are made for certain situations. Before, mages who use crit pets managed to dish out 1.5-1.8k dmg on a single lightng shot, the ability to stun and put down a whole team using curse. Now, to add more critical damage on DoT effects per tick went a little bit overboard. Yes I have tested it already in 5 matches of pvp right after the update.

I'm unsure how dev's would respond to this issue but doing something with the mana pool would at least help rogues get back on their feet. No there's no such thing as one hit K.Os to mages unless he is heavily undergeared or low leveled. I'm after the balance, not the one who seeks for unnecessary advantage over a certain class.

Couldnt agree more lim

[katish]

How many mages killed u in pvp one x one since the update?

And how many warriors?

Oh yeah and how many of them did your kill? I'm willing to bet all of you did a lot more killing than dieing.

Sorry but you all seem to be talking theoretical before you actually experience these changes...

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[Limsi]

I've stated that I played 5 pvp matches after the update.

[Frohnatur]

I still see rogues getting the most kills, but this time I'm okay with it. Why? Because now mages and warriors can get kills too. Not that much, true. But I never wanted to be the class with most kills. At least now I am a challenge to some rogues and I am not undergeared. I'm still supporting, but at least I can reach my pvp-kill-achievements now someday before x-mas i hope.

It was to be expected that rogues will argue now, since it was better for them before. Noone likes it to be nerfed. We had the same situation when Warrior-class was nerfed down in season 3 (or 2?).

You see, the point is: if rogues are the class designed to dominate in pvp (as you argue) what did the mages get out of pvp? The warriors are good flag carriers, but mages? They dont get any achievements for supporting in pvp. And please dont bring up the higher killing in pve. There is one high achievment for that and most reached it before they got to level 16.

Balance is, when all classes have similar chances to get to the very hard achievments. Its still not this way, but I think I will not argue anymore, because I think, right now this is fair enough, and mages are worth something again.

[Uziscata]

I still see rogues getting the most kills, but this time I'm okay with it. Why? Because now mages and warriors can get kills too. Not that much, true. But I never wanted to be the class with most kills. At least now I am a challenge to some rogues and I am not undergeared. I'm still supporting, but at least I can reach my pvp-kill-achievements now someday before x-mas i hope.

It was to be expected that rogues will argue now, since it was better for them before. Noone likes it to be nerfed. We had the same situation when Warrior-class was nerfed down in season 3 (or 2?).

You see, the point is: if rogues are the class designed to dominate in pvp (as you argue) what did the mages get out of pvp? The warriors are good flag carriers, but mages? They dont get any achievements for supporting in pvp. And please dont bring up the higher killing in pve. There is one high achievment for that and most reached it before they got to level 16.

Balance is, when all classes have similar chances to get to the very hard achievments. Its still not this way, but I think I will not argue anymore, because I think, right now this is fair enough, and mages are worth something again.

your argument is totally irrelevant to what im saying.

[Zeus]

How many mages killed u in pvp one x one since the update?

And how many warriors?

Oh yeah and how many of them did your kill? I'm willing to bet all of you did a lot more killing than dieing.

Sorry but you all seem to be talking theoretical before you actually experience these changes...

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Again, again, again...I will repeat this. Rogues EXCEL at kill stealing. What do sorcerers not get about this fact?! They are DESIGNED to deliver the killing blow. However, that does not mean that they're OP. You want to know why? Fight a rogue in PvP 1v1, they aren't as tough as you and others make them out to be provided that the sorcerer is skilled.

@Fro

Before this change, sorcerers could kill many before. I really don't see you much in PvP & honestly, from what I've seen, the pro sorcerers really do not complain. Why? Things were balanced. Now? They're definitely out balanced.


Take a look at last cap, Energizeric wasn't shy to admit he could kill many rogues without an issue. Infact, the only two he mentioned giving him issues were iPredator and Love, both of whom were considered the two best rogues. Also, as Energizeric has stated, 2v1 for a sorcerer is not much of an issue either provided that one knows what one is doing.

To this, I'll say, classes were balanced. People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.

[Limsi]

Ran out of thanks but yes, I believe Energizeric got no trouble raking up kills against rogues and other classes. Heck I even remembered the first time he incorporated shield to his build, he got more powerful and pretty much can par with good rogues. Another player is Pyromaginum, this guy only has a mythic gun but does not have any problem with killing anyone. This nullifies any argument that rogues alone are the ones who can excel at killing. You never hear these guys complain when it comes to PvP.

Stun fireball plus slag - I won't complain, after all these are vital to a sorc's build. Stuns are what keep them running and killing and it's never a problem for me, it's just the insane ability to deal more crits which bothers me. A shielded sorc who can stun and deal more crits with their DoT skills not to mention the damage from lightning - It's something else.

[Taejo]

I really don't want to involve myself with this thread, because I really don't have as much experience PvPing with a rogue as the contributors posting here. However, I will try to provide my outsider perspective on the issues. First, I'd like to ask how much PvP everyone here has actually done to formulate their arguments and raise such a contention against the recent changes? We are currently less than 12 hours into the update and already the complaint threads are in full bloom. Analogically speaking, it's like going to a car dealership, declining to take a test drive of the newest model and then writing a negative feedback letter to the manufacturer without ever operating the vehicle. This all seems like speculation based on past PvP mechanics while neglecting to observe first hand (for more than just a few hours) the new modifications to PvP.

Tonight, I briefly PvP'd on my warrior to experience the new changes. Although I was facing the usual suspects in CTF, similar to Season 4 I was able to withstand a 3 versus 1 barrage of Maul/Samael warriors for a good amount of time (of course eventually losing the battle), kill and be killed by rogues and sorcerers, and successfully support my group in the bigger battles - all with a hybrid PvE/PvP spec. In the hour and a half period in which I played numerous CTF games against different opponents, I accrued maybe 10 kills - which is about five times less than what I was capable of last season. Of course, there's many factors relating to this number, and it would be wrong for me to conclude that PvP is 'all messed up now' based on this single session. Yet, I can't honestly say that my damage output was as vanquishing as many of you are claiming it to be. I don't own a maul, and I didn't use one in Season 4 either; but I managed to performed exceptionally well without one and accomplished some of my PvP achievements in roughly a months time. However, I will say that the sorcerer friend who was running with me (full mythic + arcane staff) mentioned that some warriors were hitting her pretty hard - just like in Season 4.

One of the resurfacing issues that I see in these threads is that of the rogue's mana supply. This particular issue I will fully support - even before the days start to pass with this new era of PvP. It seems to me that the recent overall damage reduction within the PvP maps is good enough reason for the Devs to find a way to give rogues more mana or a way to replenish mana in combat.

Anyway, that is my first account of PvP since today's update. The point I'm trying to make here is that PvP testing (in most games) is a tumultuous task which takes weeks of diligent testing by programmers to make any sort of conclusions on class strengths and weaknesses. I can't speak for STG or make any claims that they did such extensive testing, but I also have my doubts that they just quickly whipped up some changes and tossed them to us as guinea pigs. With that being said, none of us can befittingly write an accurate assessment of the current changes to PvP as of yet. It is going to take weeks before we have a consensus opinion about what needs fixing and why. I hate to say it, but right now this thread - which I'm assuming had the intentions to provide constructive feedback - is so far just a group of rogues reacting poorly to the changes made to warriors and sorcerers. Apollo and Limsy - you're both veteran players of AL and your input on these forums is always greatly respected. With that being said, you both know that our daily encounters in PvP are extremely circumstantial, and not one battle exactly like the next. There are too many variables at hand which throw the typical implications of each CTF/TDM match off course. Give this some time... play the game and make observations... then come back and discuss it. If your position remains the same throughout the course of time, so be it. But at least you did your homework.

[katish]

Again, again, again...I will repeat this. Rogues EXCEL at kill stealing. What do sorcerers not get about this fact?! They are DESIGNED to deliver the killing blow. However, that does not mean that they're OP. You want to know why? Fight a rogue in PvP 1v1, they aren't as tough as you and others make them out to be provided that the sorcerer is skilled.


I meant 1v1..how many warriors/rogues killed you and how many have you killed since the update? I'm willing to bet whoever could kill you before still can and those who couldn't still can't. I doubt you (and the others rogues on this thread so far) have experienced such a dramatic change in pvp dynamics far as your posts make believe.



@Fro

Before this change, sorcerers could kill many before. I really don't see you much in PvP & honestly, from what I've seen, the pro sorcerers really do not complain. Why? Things were balanced. Now? They're definitely out balanced.


Take a look at last cap, Energizeric wasn't shy to admit he could kill many rogues without an issue. Infact, the only two he mentioned giving him issues were iPredator and Love, both of whom were considered the two best rogues. Also, as Energizeric has stated, 2v1 for a sorcerer is not much of an issue either provided that one knows what one is doing.

To this, I'll say, classes were balanced. People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.


This game is not only played by pros. As fro keeps mentioning balanced means an equal chance.. Mages never had a chance. The fact that 1 mage (or maybe 3-5) succeeds vs the less than perfectly skilled rogues is hardly a valid argument here.

I'll quote you back to you Cuz honestly you're not doing this yourself... People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.


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[katish]

Mana is only a problem for rogues when fighting warriors. Get a mana pet! When in clashes mages are there to replenish your supply.. If no mage in your team ,invite one!

I compare you're mana situation with mage shield situation. It's a weakness, yes, but one that can be circumvented, and easier than no shield. Rogues without mana are sitting ducks, but there are mana packs and mana pets. Mages without shield are sitting ducks too.. Abs we don't get shields packs or pets. We live it with.. Or rather, die of it :)

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[Limsi]

I really don't want to involve myself with this thread, because I really don't have as much experience PvPing with a rogue as the contributors posting here. However, I will try to provide my outsider perspective on the issues. First, I'd like to ask how much PvP everyone here has actually done to formulate their arguments and raise such a contention against the recent changes? We are currently less than 12 hours into the update and already the complaint threads are in full bloom. Analogically speaking, it's like going to a car dealership, declining to take a test drive of the newest model and then writing a negative feedback letter to the manufacturer without ever operating the vehicle. This all seems like speculation based on past PvP mechanics while neglecting to observe first hand (for more than just a few hours) the new modifications to PvP.

Tonight, I briefly PvP'd on my warrior to experience the new changes. Although I was facing the usual suspects in CTF, similar to Season 4 I was able to withstand a 3 versus 1 barrage of Maul/Samael warriors for a good amount of time (of course eventually losing the battle), kill and be killed by rogues and sorcerers, and successfully support my group in the bigger battles - all with a hybrid PvE/PvP spec. In the hour and a half period in which I played numerous CTF games against different opponents, I accrued maybe 10 kills - which is about five times less than what I was capable of last season. Of course, there's many factors relating to this number, and it would be wrong for me to conclude that PvP is 'all messed up now' based on this single session. Yet, I can't honestly say that my damage output was as vanquishing as many of you are claiming it to be. I don't own a maul, and I didn't use one in Season 4 either; but I managed to performed exceptionally well without one and accomplished some of my PvP achievements in roughly a months time. However, I will say that the sorcerer friend who was running with me (full mythic + arcane staff) mentioned that some warriors were hitting her pretty hard - just like in Season 4.

One of the resurfacing issues that I see in these threads is that of the rogue's mana supply. This particular issue I will fully support - even before the days start to pass with this new era of PvP. It seems to me that the recent overall damage reduction within the PvP maps is good enough reason for the Devs to find a way to give rogues more mana or a way to replenish mana in combat.

Anyway, that is my first account of PvP since today's update. The point I'm trying to make here is that PvP testing (in most games) is a tumultuous task which takes weeks of diligent testing by programmers to make any sort of conclusions on class strengths and weaknesses. I can't speak for STG or make any claims that they did such extensive testing, but I also have my doubts that they just quickly whipped up some changes and tossed them to us as guinea pigs. With that being said, none of us can befittingly write an accurate assessment of the current changes to PvP as of yet. It is going to take weeks before we have a consensus opinion about what needs fixing and why. I hate to say it, but right now this thread - which I'm assuming had the intentions to provide constructive feedback - is so far just a group of rogues reacting poorly to the changes made to warriors and sorcerers. Apollo and Limsy - you're both veteran players of AL and your input on these forums is always greatly respected. With that being said, you both know that our daily encounters in PvP are extremely circumstantial, and not one battle exactly like the next. There are too many variables at hand which throw the typical implications of each CTF/TDM match off course. Give this some time... play the game and make observations... then come back and discuss it. If your position remains the same throughout the course of time, so be it. But at least you did your homework.

Spot on. I'll admit that 5 matches alone won't be a sufficient conclusion to the current issue. With the five matches I have played, I fought with the same group of players and you are right this encounter is circumstantial - too much variables to consider and a bunch of factors affecting the fight's outcome. I'll go through several fights over the week and provide feedbacks with my observation.

One thing I believe that needs buffing would be the rogue's mana pool. It's either they lower the mana consumption per skill or add mana heal to medpacks. I'm pretty sure the latter would be favourable to mages and warriors as this would take more effort for a rogue to do. Instant gratification is something we don't wanna witness here especially in PvP, and that I'm sure most rogues will accept as a challenge.

Thanks for your input.

[Zeus]

I meant 1v1..how many warriors/rogues killed you and how many have you killed since the update? I'm willing to bet whoever could kill you before still can and those who couldn't still can't. I doubt you (and the others rogues on this thread so far) have experienced such a dramatic change in pvp dynamics far as your posts make believe.


This game is not only played by pros. As fro keeps mentioning balanced means an equal chance.. Mages never had a chance. The fact that 1 mage (or maybe 3-5) succeeds vs the less than perfectly skilled rogues is hardly a valid argument here.

I'll quote you back to you Cuz honestly you're not doing this yourself... People should take the time to learn their class versus complaining about other classes strengths.


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This game is not only played by pros, correct. However, pros is what determines the class balance. Just like how an average rogue that doesn't know a PvP spec will easily die, the same goes for sorcerers and warriors. In this game, there's too many of them. So, how does one determine class balance? Set up an ideal situation, which is usually set up by pros.

I've PvP'd many matches since the update & fighting them now, if I go head to head with an undergeared sorcerer, even their DoT has a very good chance at killing me provided if I don't stun them early and kill them. However, those opportunities are rare when taking into account sorcerer's invulnerability shield - especially when combined with warrior's invulnerability shield (It really should be fixed how a team of warriors can literally conquer any team of pros).

@Katish
Mana is a rogue problem, yes. However, it's even more of a problem when these days it's difficult to even kill one sorcerer that knows what he or she is doing. Before this update, fighting sorcerers that knew what he/she was doing WAS difficult! Heck, I would never be able to tell the outcome of the fight because it was always so intense. Things like, can I make it to my packs on time? Will I have enough mana to deliver the killing blow? Will curse KO me? Those were already huge factors! Now, since DoT has the chance to crit, facing up with a sorcerer - provided the shield is up - the sorcerer is most likely to win. That isn't balanced. Before, however, it was balanced because it was a challenge for both!

What are the weaknesses of a rogue? No shield, no mana, mid health. Also, dodge is rarely a noticeable factor. Heck, dodge was proven to not be a percentage. So, when my dodge is 40, that doesn't mean I'll dodge 40% of oncoming attacks. Honestly, I rarely see dodge coming into account.

Then there's two issues: either make dodge a percentage so it's actually a useful stat that'll help increase survivability or find some way to make sure mana can be replenished on a rogue. As of right now, the way to replenish mana is pure bug abuse (which is not acceptable!)

[Zeus]

Also, to those that think I'm trying to boost up rogues for my own benefit - that is not the case.

I played the underpowered class for the longest time in PL. In those days, it was usually the bear that was widely thought to be underpowered. Only as of late, has it grown popular. However, in the days I played, many bears would complain about themselves being underpowered. Was that really the case though? No! I know this because I was playing a bear in those days and was one of the few who refused to admit a bear was underpowered.

Just because a class is more difficult to learn does not mean it's underpowered. In my mind, the difficulty of a class & it's success in PvP is more fruitful when it comes to the actual experience. The only reason why I don't play sorcerer in AL as well is that it is too expensive for me to gear out two characters in full mythic and arcane. Maybe down the line I will, but as of right now, I cannot afford to.

However, when playing against the pros of this class, I can tell that this class is NOT underpowered, but just required more skill and control to learn. Is it easy to play a rogue? Yes. However, that weaknesses come out very easily when paired up or against somebody who knows what he/she is doing.

Trust me, I'm looking for class balance almost as much as y'all - which is why you'll see me posting things like in TheMiracleBird's thread regarding rogues mana problem that don't benefit my class at all. However, prior to this update, things were balanced! Now however? That isn't the case.

[Frohnatur]

I do not complain. I said ithink that now there is balance and im happy.

btw. Balance is not determined by the pros. It is determined by the average. I play pvp 2 hours a day. Played it yesterday (day of update) more than that. Had a good experience. Still died a lot more than i killed, but now its not frustrating anymore.

Peace

[moonway03]

Smh novel replies

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[Zeus]

I do not complain. I said ithink that now there is balance and im happy.

btw. Balance is not determined by the pros. It is determined by the average. I play pvp 2 hours a day. Played it yesterday (day of update) more than that. Had a good experience. Still died a lot more than i killed, but now its not frustrating anymore.

Peace

Logically, it cannot be determined by the average. Why? How can one measure the skill level of one average player versus another average player? Thus, the only way to determine balance is to pit two players of equal skill level (pros) & have them duke it out.

THEN, from that point on, players WORK towards that skill level. Since when did PvP become about "lets buff stats so y'all can kill"? That's exactly what happened here.

Fro, the truth is that I see many sorcerers kill much more than they die so you're obviously doing something wrong.

[Uzii]

Before this change, sorcerers could kill many before. I really don't see you much in PvP & honestly, from what I've seen, the pro sorcerers really do not complain. Why? Things were balanced. Now? They're definitely out balanced.


And how many of those "pros" have actually a forum account? Or even bother to post on forum? Maybe they just adapted and moved on....
No meaning to disregard ur post, just this can be the case too.

EDIT: How many means more like 1 or 2
not really going to change my name, thers many Uzi´s actually in game not just me or u.
if u feel uncomfortable u can change ur name also

[Uziscata]

And how many of those "pros" have actually a forum account? Or even bother to post on forum? Maybe they just adapted and moved on....
No meaning to disregard ur post, just this can be the case too.

Uzii you should change ur name people think that you are me.
I dont want to be mistaken for someone else.

[Zeus]

And how many of those "pros" have actually a forum account? Or even bother to post on forum? Maybe they just adapted and moved on....
No meaning to disregard ur post, just this can be the case too.

I would consider Energizeric to be one of those pros. He has made statements on the forums of having being able to beat most rogues with ease. So, that is testimony to the fact that rogues are NOT OP.

Again, I will reiterate. Just because a class is harder to master, like a bear in PL, does not mean the class was underpowered. It just takes more time to master that class and utilize it for killing.

Example A: I used to think warriors were weak in AL, but after fighting against them & learning how the pros fight, I retract that statement. Same thing goes with sorcerers. I used to think that they too are weak, but when the pros use the class to their true potential, it is obvious that the class WAS NOT weak.

The thing is, the number of complainers severely outnumber the number of players who actually know how to play their class. And, as shown, the complainers got their way instead of actually learning to utilize the class properly.

[Drearivev]

Uzii you should change ur name people think that you are me.
I dont want to be mistaken for someone else.
Lolz, that's what I thought.

But how are hooks worse than they were before because the quills are better? o.o That makes no sense....

[Bless]

Wait. So, this update sewed up the mages weak point: Crit. And it also sewed up the warriors weak point: Damage.

Yet it didnt fix the rogues mana? I am Gobsmacked on how this update didnt give the class benefits. Biased update imo

[Zeus]

Something I should clarify, btw. Personally, I don't find that much difficulty in PvP. Why? I am truly maxed damage (Full Mythic with Samael & Hammerjaw).

However, there are many that don't have the resources and great pets that others like myself have. As a test, I tried PvPing with other pets that I used to use: Malison, Talon, Slag, etc. While they're still good pets, these new damage increases leave people with lesser pets feeling the full wrath of these changes.

At the end of the day, I'm still the guy usually killing the most in the game, provided that I know what I'm doing. However, those that don't have the gear I do have taken extremley noticeable hits.

Also, most of the mages I know that are stating everything is fine are not full mythic/arcane. I don't think they're taking into account how powerful these DoTs become when mages have crit higher than all but maxed rogues. It's very noticeable when their DoTs stack and crit 1/3 of the time on top of their already existing spell damage. C'mon guy...critical on DoT wasn't needed. Sure, keep the increased damage on critical hit for the spells, but critical on DoT is just overboard.

[Zeus]

Wait. So, this update sewed up the mages weak point: Crit. And it also sewed up the warriors weak point: Damage.

Yet it didnt fix the rogues mana? I am Gobsmacked on how this update didnt give the class benefits. Biased update imo

That's what I'm saying! Critical was rogue territory & developers have given it to mages. Honestly, that is not right. Only 2-3 of our spells have increased damage on critical hit and one of them is useless (SSS)! So giving the damage class all these upgrades ON TOP of DoT criticals is just insanity.

Seriously, take away the DoT criticals. Sorcerers already do enough damage with the increased damage on critical already! The upgrades you have given them provide an insane amount of damage on just the increased damage on critical alone. Mage vs. rogue fights were already close before this update, but now, the scales have tipped.

There was once a game called PL. In this game, eventually mages overpowered even a bird's critical and did more damage than them despite the bird being the damage class. The way developers are making changes now, the same thing will happen to AL.

[Bless]

In the hour and a half period in which I played numerous CTF games against different opponents, I accrued maybe 10 kills. Are you serious or is it the work of hyperbole? Thats like one kill every 10 minutes, and even non mythic warriors can get more kills


I think we all agree from the above posts that a mana solution (possibly even mine: http://tinyurl.com/os4b2mt) should be added as a benefit for rogues because the other classes have improved their weaknesses.

Also, the rogue had two advantages over the mage and warrior CRIT + DODGE. This update, mages were buffed crit for no apparent reason. No suggestions were made, and crit was probably not important for a mage anyways because of their BRUTE damage. Crit should always be less for mages/warriors, its a rogues speciality, its rogue territory..

[falmear]

PvP in this game is an arms race. This is proven by all of these posts either trying to get something or trying to deny others. People claiming things are/were balanced. The point is, things were never balanced and never have been balanced. If you think things were balanced then its because things are in your favor, as in you are top geared, your class has some benefits you are exploiting to be successful. Rogues don't like being stun locked. Nerf stun. Mages don't like to be one hit KO'd nerf rogue's crit damage. Mages always had crit on DoT, this was proven by time shift. I can pull some old videos to prove it. I believe what they did was boost the crit damage for DoT. Because you got like 2-3 extra points of damage. Nothing really exciting and the only DoT damage you have in PvP is fireball. Its not like PvE where mages have 3 skills with DoT. Mages in PvP are limited to two offensive skills with one skill being really for stunning, and lightning for the kill shot. And even with all of these changes the most crit chance we are talking about is in the 30% neighborhood for mages. And thats top geared with an arcane pet and full mythics. Who knows maybe now Ribbit will be a viable option for mages. Because you are all getting over excited about DoT crit damage, when I am seeing significantly more crit damage on lightning. And up to now with all of the raging, I have only seen 2 people bring up this fact. I would be more worried about the crit damage from lightning then anything else. I don't think you guys even know what to get upset over.

[Taejo]

Are you serious or is it the work of hyperbole? Thats like one kill every 10 minutes, and even non mythic warriors can get more kills


I think we all agree from the above posts that a mana solution (possibly even mine: http://tinyurl.com/os4b2mt) should be added as a benefit for rogues because the other classes have improved their weaknesses.

Also, the rogue had two advantages over the mage and warrior CRIT + DODGE. This update, mages were buffed crit for no apparent reason. No suggestions were made, and crit was probably not important for a mage anyways because of their BRUTE damage. Crit should always be less for mages/warriors, its a rogues speciality, its rogue territory..

I understand where you're coming from regarding this comment. I logged on and rechecked my stats from last night: I accrued 12 kills and 13 deaths. I'm almost embarassed to disclose that information, but it's the truthful outcome of my first PvP session this season. I can assure you, I perform fairly well in PvP, and so far I'm not seeing a drastic change in my overall damage - but I will have to engage in some more PvP over the weekend to start formulating an accurate assessment. Throughout the hour and a half spent yesterday, I was only able to fight a sorcerer and rogue 1 on 1 on two occasions - both which I defeated and accrued points. The rest of the time was spent in legitimate 5v5 or 5v4 action, where I wasn't having any luck landing the killing blows and was constantly beat to the punch by rogues/sorcerers (not saying I deserved all those killing blows, mind you). Anyway, the point I was trying to make with sharing my PvP kills number here was to show you that even a pretty good warrior is not a wrecking machine due to these new changes. In fact, the several changes across the board related to damage seem to be pretty balanced so far - but time will tell and we'll continue to record our observations here I'm sure. However, if there was any sort of obvious unbalance from granting us warriors the extra damage, then I would probably be posting that I walked away with a few dozen kills rather than 12.

There are several factors involved with landing killing blows, and it's not a very good example of the impact the new PvP mechanics have had on our game play. With that being said, I will continue to try out new specs (tonight is full on damage!) and offer my experiences here (as a warrior) for you rogues to cipher through.

Furthermore, as most of you know, I also play a sorcerer. So expect some feedback from those accounts as well :)

[Bless]

PvP in this game is an arms race. This is proven by all of these posts either trying to get something or trying to deny others. People claiming things are/were balanced. The point is, things were never balanced and never have been balanced. If you think things were balanced then its because things are in your favor, as in you are top geared, your class has some benefits you are exploiting to be successful. Rogues don't like being stun locked. Nerf stun. Mages don't like to be one hit KO'd nerf rogue's crit damage. Mages always had crit on DoT, this was proven by time shift. I can pull some old videos to prove it. I believe what they did was boost the crit damage for DoT. Because you got like 2-3 extra points of damage. Nothing really exciting and the only DoT damage you have in PvP is fireball. Its not like PvE where mages have 3 skills with DoT. Mages in PvP are limited to two offensive skills with one skill being really for stunning, and lightning for the kill shot. And even with all of these changes the most crit chance we are talking about is in the 30% neighborhood for mages. And thats top geared with an arcane pet and full mythics. Who knows maybe now Ribbit will be a viable option for mages. Because you are all getting over excited about DoT crit damage, when I am seeing significantly more crit damage on lightning. And up to now with all of the raging, I have only seen 2 people bring up this fact. I would be more worried about the crit damage from lightning then anything else. I don't think you guys even know what to get upset over. We are saying that rogues didnt get buffed whilst the other classes weaknesses HAVE been buffed. Crits on DoT is a good thing because its like an extra fireball and that will do considerable damage WHILST allowing you to fire off other skills. See, were not raging, you cant understand people at all...

[Bless]

I understand where you're coming from regarding this comment. I logged on and rechecked my stats from last night: I accrued 12 kills and 13 deaths. I'm almost embarassed to disclose that information, but it's the truthful outcome of my first PvP session this season. I can assure you, I perform fairly well in PvP, and so far I'm not seeing a drastic change in my overall damage - but I will have to engage in some more PvP over the weekend to start formulating an accurate assessment. Throughout the hour and a half spent yesterday, I was only able to fight a sorcerer and rogue 1 on 1 on two occasions - both which I defeated and accrued points. The rest of the time was spent in legitimate 5v5 or 5v4 action, where I wasn't having any luck landing the killing blows and was constantly beat to the punch by rogues/sorcerers (not saying I deserved all those killing blows, mind you). Anyway, the point I was trying to make with sharing my PvP kills number here was to show you that even a pretty good warrior is not a wrecking machine due to these new changes. In fact, the several changes across the board related to damage seem to be pretty balanced so far - but time will tell and we'll continue to record our observations here I'm sure. However, if there was any sort of obvious unbalance from granting us warriors the extra damage, then I would probably be posting that I walked away with a few dozen kills rather than 12.

There are several factors involved with landing killing blows, and it's not a very good example of the impact the new PvP mechanics have had on our game play. With that being said, I will continue to try out new specs (tonight is full on damage!) and offer my experiences here (as a warrior) for you rogues to cipher through.

Furthermore, as most of you know, I also play a sorcerer. So expect some feedback from those accounts as well :) Haha, then you must have had a bad team or your team kept ksing you! But as a tank in a 5v5 situation, killing shouldnt be your main aim :)

[falmear]

We are saying that rogues didnt get buffed whilst the other classes weaknesses HAVE been buffed. Crits on DoT is a good thing because its like an extra fireball and that will do considerable damage WHILST allowing you to fire off other skills. See, were not raging, you cant understand people at all...

Anytime I see a post by you I consider it raging. So because you didn't get buffed its a bad thing? I suggest you wait your turn, they said they will do something with rogues. And when they do I can tell you I won't be posting things like the same day they make the changes. Give it a few days to even know how the changes are effecting the game.

[Bless]

We are saying that rogues didnt get buffed whilst the other classes weaknesses HAVE been buffed. Crits on DoT is a good thing because its like an extra fireball and that will do considerable damage WHILST allowing you to fire off other skills. See, were not raging, you cant understand people at all...

Anytime I see a post by you I consider it raging. So because you didn't get buffed its a bad thing? I suggest you wait your turn, they said they will do something with rogues. And when they do I can tell you I won't be posting things like the same day they make the changes. Give it a few days to even know how the changes are effecting the game. I have to agree, but it shouldve been done with all the others.

But everytime I post isnt raging. You just dont understand people.

[katish]

Mage vs. rogue fights were already close before this update, but now, the scales have tipped.

seriously Apollo?! So this is what it comes down to!?

well then, stop complaining and find a counter strategy.. learn to fight your class.. again, just quoting yourself :)

[Taejo]

Haha, then you must have had a bad team or your team kept ksing you! But as a tank in a 5v5 situation, killing shouldnt be your main aim :)

It's true, the majority of my teams last night were not satisfactory to say the least. Although your definition of "KS" is not accurate here (players in this game misuse the word all the time), I already mentioned that I was not lucky in landing any of the killing blows and this indeed was the case for the majority of my PvP session yesterday.

I appreciate your criticism, however, I can assure you that I know my role as a tank in PvP very well. My post wasn't meant to sound misleading and give readers the notion that kills are what I'm after in a 5v5 scenario. In fact, if you remember my first post within this thread, I clearly stated that I was successful in defending myself and supporting my group in these situations. Regardless, providing my PvP kills information is, in my mind, a constructive building block in debunking the argument that warrior damage is 'too high' with the recent changes. It's a logical fact that if my AE damage delivered from Skyward Smash was on par with that of sorcerers, then I would be walking away from each game with a lot more "KSs" than usual.

[drgrimmy]

PvP in this game is an arms race. This is proven by all of these posts either trying to get something or trying to deny others. People claiming things are/were balanced. The point is, things were never balanced and never have been balanced. If you think things were balanced then its because things are in your favor, as in you are top geared, your class has some benefits you are exploiting to be successful. Rogues don't like being stun locked. Nerf stun. Mages don't like to be one hit KO'd nerf rogue's crit damage. Mages always had crit on DoT, this was proven by time shift. I can pull some old videos to prove it. I believe what they did was boost the crit damage for DoT. Because you got like 2-3 extra points of damage. Nothing really exciting and the only DoT damage you have in PvP is fireball. Its not like PvE where mages have 3 skills with DoT. Mages in PvP are limited to two offensive skills with one skill being really for stunning, and lightning for the kill shot. And even with all of these changes the most crit chance we are talking about is in the 30% neighborhood for mages. And thats top geared with an arcane pet and full mythics. Who knows maybe now Ribbit will be a viable option for mages. Because you are all getting over excited about DoT crit damage, when I am seeing significantly more crit damage on lightning. And up to now with all of the raging, I have only seen 2 people bring up this fact. I would be more worried about the crit damage from lightning then anything else. I don't think you guys even know what to get upset over.


We are saying that rogues didnt get buffed whilst the other classes weaknesses HAVE been buffed. Crits on DoT is a good thing because its like an extra fireball and that will do considerable damage WHILST allowing you to fire off other skills. See, were not raging, you cant understand people at all...

Yeah I am not quite too sure what the update notes were referring to. To me it seemed as though mages always had crit on dot. It was most noticable with time when used on a large crowd. You could watch the crits rolling, although it used to only slightly increase the damage (say from 10 to 12 per tick). Maybe they mean that the increased damage of crit also applies to dot? Or alternately the chance for crit is rerolled for every tick of dot rather than each enemy getting either all dot ticks with or without crit based on one roll? I think we need some clarification from the developers about what has changed, as the current patch notes don't make sense :(

[Taejo]

Yeah I am not quite too sure what the update notes were referring to. To me it seemed as though mages always had crit on dot. It was most noticable with time when used on a large crowd. You could watch the crits rolling, although it used to only slightly increase the damage (say from 10 to 12 per tick). Maybe they mean that the increased damage of crit also applies to dot? Or alternately the chance for crit is rerolled for every tick of dot rather than each enemy getting either all dot ticks with or without crit based on one roll? I think we need some clarification from the developers about what has changed, as the current patch notes don't make sense :(

I agree, this was a very confusing patch note. All DoTs (fire, ice, clock) were already crit-capable.

[Frohnatur]

I have said it in another thread but i think it fits well in here too.

I think this update was intended to change balance. Not even things out so that we are back to point A. That would have rendered it redundant.
The update itself is proof that the developers deemed the balance tipped too much in favor of one class (in pvp).

[birdmasta]

we should just stop 1v1-ing and play CTF for real... problem solved? Warriors tank, Mages dish out AOE dmg, Rogues target dmg dealers?

[gaararhen]

i feel sad for my rogue..

[gundamsone]

Too bad a mage with curse can disable an entire army of rogues for good 5 seconds.
I really don't get what was going on in STS' minds when 1 skill can recoil as much damage as Alpha Wolf.
I have been and do die instantly from curse because I shot off 1 Aimshot lol???

What more do you mages want seriously?
You got your crit and aimshot like skill (lightning which also adds stun)
You just got your piercing like skill that lets you run chase and flag as fast as us...
You got your 2s shield, & dmg reduction
You got your OP fireball stuns
You got heals that heals you instantly (whereas alot of rogues have to hunt for their heals b/c they drop randomly)
You got your Alpha Wolf Shield

I can go on and on with the list and frankly you can't name half those things that Rogues are advantaged in.
Only thing rooting for us is our 1 skill aimshot, and it's been nerfed I don't know how many times now and it's not a 100% 1 hit skill as it only does worthy damage if on Crit.

Seems like you guys still want more? I say LOL to that.
Try playing rogue and compare before you start throwing out assumptions.

I have a mage and a rogue so I'm talking from experience.

[Drearivev]

we should just stop 1v1-ing and play CTF for real... problem solved? Warriors tank, Mages dish out AOE dmg, Rogues target dmg dealers?
The problem is since the damage nerf, we can't do our job properly. Our damage was nerfed, which means we need to use more skills to kill, thus using up more mana. Yet, nothing was done for our mana-pool. So we're really a lot less useful than we were before, not only in PvP, but also in PvE because the damage nerf is also accounted in PvE.

[Taejo]

The problem is since the damage nerf, we can't do our job properly. Our damage was nerfed, which means we need to use more skills to kill, thus using up more mana. Yet, nothing was done for our mana-pool. So we're really a lot less useful than we were before, not only in PvP, but also in PvE because the damage nerf is also accounted in PvE.

I don't recall reading any patch notes about PvE damage being reduced. Can you provide a quote for us please?

[Drearivev]

I don't recall reading any patch notes about PvE damage being reduced. Can you provide a quote for us please?
O.o damage nerf was only PvP? It's in PvE as well I believe.

[Taejo]

2013-08-29 Content Update (128792)

Slightly lowered how much damage all three classes take in PvP, to make the battles last longer and be more interesting. Feedback on this change is very welcome!

This is the only patch note regarding damage reduction that I know of.

[Uziscata]

I agree with all the things some of you guys are saying.
Mages atm have all the specialties of both classes.
How come they get high dmg, high crit, a shield and a heal that gives mana and health.
I dont think mages understand what a rogue can do with a mana heal.
We will just keep suffering cause everyone complains about rogues kill stealing blah blah blah.
But I still dont understand what the point was of the dmg reduction if they just increase it for both classes but rogues.
Now alot of warriors and most mages do more dmg than rogues.
this is completely unfair.
ANd increasing mages crit, like come on they already crit higher than rogues and more frequently.
My crit is pretty much maxed along with dmg and mages still do more dmg and crit more frequently and higher.
I just dont understand what sts were thinking.
they want to make pvp more balance? they just tipped it over the ice berg.
With rogues at the bottom of the ladder.
It was more balanced last season than it is now.

[Kraze]

Too bad a mage with curse can disable an entire army of rogues for good 5 seconds.
I really don't get what was going on in STS' minds when 1 skill can recoil as much damage as Alpha Wolf.
I have been and do die instantly from curse because I shot off 1 Aimshot lol???

What more do you mages want seriously?
You got your crit and aimshot like skill (lightning which also adds stun)
You just got your piercing like skill that lets you run chase and flag as fast as us...
You got your 2s shield, & dmg reduction
You got your OP fireball stuns
You got heals that heals you instantly (whereas alot of rogues have to hunt for their heals b/c they drop randomly)
You got your Alpha Wolf Shield

I can go on and on with the list and frankly you can't name half those things that Rogues are advantaged in.
Only thing rooting for us is our 1 skill aimshot, and it's been nerfed I don't know how many times now and it's not a 100% 1 hit skill as it only does worthy damage if on Crit.

Seems like you guys still want more? I say LOL to that.
Try playing rogue and compare before you start throwing out assumptions.

I have a mage and a rogue so I'm talking from experience.

Fireball needs to charge
Shield needs to charge
Lightning with stun? Needs to charge
So mage gets to tap heal.... Man what if rouges needed to charge every attack skill....

[gaararhen]

yup just tried pvp now at lvl 31-32 and im having a hard time killing any mage or warrior that dont even have any mythic gear (i have a mythic bow and a very decent gear at this lvl). mages now crit and deal dmg like rogues, stun like hell and i cant possibly kill any warrior heck i dont even think they got any damage.

i can now only kill steal (i hate getting my kill stolen from me and who doesnt? but i myself do this for the sake of kdr) or kill my own kind.

atleast give us mana packs (which is very lame), a decent shield or invinsibility for like 3secs(which is supposedly very normal for any assassin or rogue) and a 1sec sure stun for charged normal attack would be nice, so we can still compete.

and please try pvping with those 3 characters so you can see for yourself what rogues have now become.

[Uziscata]

Fireball needs to charge
Shield needs to charge
Lightning with stun? Needs to charge
So mage gets to tap heal.... Man what if rouges needed to charge every attack skill....

for your information.
We have to charge all of our attacks if they even do the slightest bit of dmg.
we have to charge packs
we have to charge aim
we have to charge normal attack otherwise it doesnt stun
so maybe you should do more research into rogues before you talk

[Frohnatur]

I just dont understand what sts were thinking.
they want to make pvp more balance? they just tipped it over the ice berg.
With rogues at the bottom of the ladder.
It was more balanced last season than it is now.

I repeat myself, but I think it still stands:

I think this update was intended to change balance. Not "even" things out so that we are back to point A. That would have rendered it redundant.
The update itself is proof that the developers deemed the balance tipped too much in favor of one class (in pvp).

Another thought: Yes, things are crazy right now in pvp. But remember, we still have respec weekend, so everybody is trying out new builds, there is no way to say how the balance will be after that. Rogues might find a way to fight back with change of skills, mages might find more efficient new sets and warriors should experiment too and find ways to cope with the changes.

Only after that, when skill changes become rare, we will really see how things work out. When I was complaining earlier about the mages weaknesses, it was at the end of the skill-cycle (as I consider that what respec weekends mark), not a few hours after the update came out.

Experiment with new skill sets, and I think you will find much surprises what'll work and what not...

Of course, just staying with the old set will be your disadvantage...

Adapt.

[gundamsone]

Fireball needs to charge
Shield needs to charge
Lightning with stun? Needs to charge
So mage gets to tap heal.... Man what if rouges needed to charge every attack skill....
See if you HAD a rogue AIMSHOT NEEDS TO CHARGED
Actually almost all our skills are near worthless if non charged

So non of your arguments are valid


This is the only patch note regarding damage reduction that I know of.
They've reduced our aimshot damage initially, then reduced our crit buff upgrade from 8s to 5s.

They've given mages more crit, more dodge, a much stronger weapon, +a skill that disables our one and only killing skill.
They've given warriors a maul that can repeatedly stun us on top of regular stunning and pet stuns. I don't even want to get into the OP war teams b/c of Horn.

It's been pretty much downhill for us for last few seasons and since this is the PVP section, we really have nothing rooting for us anymore...our best weapon is the mythic bow that gives 5 dmg more than the pink bow...our heals are even less than before now...sigh

Ik the rogues here may sound selfish but can you even name one thing STS has implemented in the past 2 seasons to favor us?

[Thxforbuying]

See if you HAD a rogue AIMSHOT NEEDS TO CHARGED
Actually almost all our skills are near worthless if non charged

So non of your arguments are valid

That's just totally false.

In PvE most 'pro' rogues never charge AS, what a waste of that 10% crit stack that would be. Actually, an uncharged AS gives all skill benefits like 250% Dmg on crit, armor reduction, 10% increase Dmg for each consecutive hit and 10% crit for 5seconds.

Let's see for the other skills. Trap, razor shield, 2 more popular PvE skills, don't need to be charged for any benefit except for a little Dmg increase. Nox only needs to be charged if you want to AoE component and veil makes your range larger. SP doesn't even need to be charged to still enjoy all of its benefits except for the multi target.

Most popular PvE skills don't need to be charged.

Now compare that to your sorcerer, who's supposed to be the AoE damage dealer. popular skills include, Gale, Fire, Ice, Time, lightning for PvE. Gale needs to be charged to get the AoE dmg and armor increase. Fire, needs to be charged for its very crucial stun. Ice needs to be charged or else it's just a single target damage skill and time doesn't do any damage at all if not charged. Only lightning can be considered firing uncharged in a big mob encounter.

Let's summarize...

Popular PvE skills for rogue: AS, Nox, Trap, RS, Veil. Only Nox and Veil need to be charged to get AoE damage and increased range on veil. That's 2 out of 5 popular skills. The rest you would only charge for added damage, but you wouldn't not use a skill upgrade you invested points in.

Popular PvE skills for sorcerers are: Gale, Fire, Ice, Time, Lightning. That's 4 out of 5 popular skills that need to be charged to have the benefits you're sacrificing skill points for.


Maybe you're just a so narrow minded that you only consider one aspect of the game (PvP), but for PvE I think I just proved you completely wrong. Sorcerers need to charge way more skills to benefit from the skill points they invest in skill upgrades as compared to rogues.

[gundamsone]

That's just totally false.

In PvE most 'pro' rogues never charge AS, what a waste of that 10% crit stack that would be. Actually, an uncharged AS gives all skill benefits like 250% Dmg on crit, armor reduction, 10% increase Dmg for each consecutive hit and 10% crit for 5seconds.

Let's see for the other skills. Trap, razor shield, 2 more popular PvE skills, don't need to be charged for any benefit except for a little Dmg increase. Nox only needs to be charged if you want to AoE component and veil makes your range larger. SP doesn't even need to be charged to still enjoy all of its benefits except for the multi target.

Most popular PvE skills don't need to be charged.

Now compare that to your sorcerer, who's supposed to be the AoE damage dealer. popular skills include, Gale, Fire, Ice, Time, lightning for PvE. Gale needs to be charged to get the AoE dmg and armor increase. Fire, needs to be charged for its very crucial stun. Ice needs to be charged or else it's just a single target damage skill and time doesn't do any damage at all if not charged. Only lightning can be considered firing uncharged in a big mob encounter.

Let's summarize...

Popular PvE skills for rogue: AS, Nox, Trap, RS, Veil. Only Nox and Veil need to be charged to get AoE damage and increased range on veil. That's 2 out of 5 popular skills. The rest you would only charge for added damage, but you wouldn't not use a skill upgrade you invested points in.

Popular PvE skills for sorcerers are: Gale, Fire, Ice, Time, Lightning. That's 4 out of 5 popular skills that need to be charged to have the benefits you're sacrificing skill points for.


Maybe you're just a so narrow minded that you only consider one aspect of the game (PvP), but for PvE I think I just proved you completely wrong. Sorcerers need to charge way more skills to benefit from the skill points they invest in skill upgrades as compared to rogues.
Sorry I didn't read your post b/c this is the PVP section.
So maybe don't come here calling people narrow minded and go argue with people under announcements or general.

[Alhuntrazeck]

I wanted to keep off this thread but...

can you even name one thing STS has implemented in the past 2 seasons to favor us?
Yeah. The shield nerf. What is that but an easier way for you to kill us?

[Uziscata]

One more thing about how rogues have like no mana.
Now warriors have a skill that can steal mana from us..
Please tell me how does this work when we already have like no mana as it is.
-.-

[gundamsone]

I wanted to keep off this thread but...

Yeah. The shield nerf. What is that but an easier way for you to kill us?
Shield nerf?
You mean abusing bugs?

I beleive you have to put a skill point in to give you 2s invincibility on charged.
Non of the other 2 classes have a skill that gives it's charged ability on tapping.

Throw me another one when you think of it thx.

[Taejo]

Ik the rogues here may sound selfish but can you even name one thing STS has implemented in the past 2 seasons to favor us?

I understand the rogues' frustration here - honestly I do. I think the main problem stems from the fact that STG is planning to revamp all of the classes' abilities in PvP over time, but introducing each change piece by piece. You would have thought they'd taken the hard lessons learned from introducing arcane weapons in this same fashion and applied it to this scenario. Since their development team's staffing for AL seems to be minimal with a limited amount of time/resources for beta testing, I think we're in all actuality the beta testers here!

Remember Swede's comment in the Sep 12 patch notes?:


That was never the intended role of the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is supposed to be AOE Damage with some control. We don't want a dedicated support character. These are steps in that direction. Crit is just becoming the Sorcerers 'thing'. Rogues will be looked at as well and have something different. Not going to just do the same update on the Rogues as I do on the Sorcerer, then their powercurve moves up equally, just leaving the warrior behind.

Unfortunately, it seems that we all have to remain patient and live with this transition for now. If we start kicking and screaming for changes to the changes, the overall projected balance of Swede's future planning will probably be ruined. Then it will be back to the drawing board for the development team and we'll be back to square one with this PvP overhaul in cyclic repetition. Since we can't see the big picture from our position as STG's clientele, it's of vital importance that they quickly absorb all of this feedback and implement the next batch of class improvements. Unless STG decides to start choosing volunteers for beta testing (which I'm sure many people would be willing to do for free and it would be an extremely successful program), I think this method of implementing PvP overhaul changes piece by piece has become our reality for the time being.

However, I think a reasonable "patch" to fill the gap, appease the rogues, and improve their performance in PvP while we patiently await the next batch of changes would be to give them a mana-replenishing skill. Either add mana to HPacks, or give a skill such as the poison one a significant mana regenerating attribute (mana HoT). If an implementation like this doesn't fit into the grand scheme of things in the future development of PvP, then take out later. But for the time being, rogues need something to hang onto.

[Bless]

I wanted to keep off this thread but...

Yeah. The shield nerf. What is that but an easier way for you to kill us? Thats not a nerf. It was a bug that was fixed, its not a nerf at all, if you were using the shield uncharged to gain invulnerability, you were [to an extent] abusing the bug.

Its like the aim shot bug, we didnt cry after that saying "they nerfed out aimshot" because we know it was a bug

On topic: I think a dev should respond if rogues are getting buffed on mana department because I dont want to get my hopes up.

[falmear]

Shield nerf?
You mean abusing bugs?

I beleive you have to put a skill point in to give you 2s invincibility on charged.
Non of the other 2 classes have a skill that gives it's charged ability on tapping.

Throw me another one when you think of it thx.

I would gladly give rogues shield with its 2 sec invulnerability and have rogues with 30% less armor in exchange for 30% more armor for mages. Let me know if u want this because I'll start a thread over it. Also I never saw you filing a bug about the 50% crit bug on aimed shot. I guess you were all to happy to abuse that bug and say nothing.

[Bless]

I would gladly give rogues shield with its 2 sec invulnerability and have rogues with 30% less armor in exchange for 30% more armor for mages. Let me know if u want this because I'll start a thread over it. Also I never saw you filing a bug about the 50% crit bug on aimed shot. I guess you were all to happy to abuse that bug and say nothing. That would be wickeeed. Please do

[falmear]

That would be wickeeed. Please do

So are you saying that you are in favor of this and would support such a change?

[Bless]

That would be wickeeed. Please do

So are you saying that you are in favor of this and would support such a change? yep. Id favour 2seconds invulnerability + about 700+ armor than 30% less armor which is like 300 armor less when maxed.

[falmear]

I look forward to having your support on this idea.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116179-Boost-mages-armor-reduce-rogue-s-and-give-rogues-arcane-shield&p=1265597

[dizzzzzzzzz]

yeah maybe you increase dmg to warriors and inprove sorcs but are you devs even thinking about twinks i mean lvl 5-17 twinks. they never k.o a single target, not even a weak mage since with best rogue gears max you can crit is 700 and im saying best gears. i have a pretty skilled lvl16 twink and now if a warrior comes with the best armor, no matter that i use glacian+5m costing Armor i still lose while i never before. i also tested out the crit on max lvl16 warrior and i took 15% of his health only whilr back in season 3 i used to take about 30-40% of hp. A good rogue twink is now weak against a same good warrior or a mage since thr damage is about equal and the healing spells are not, plus warriors have 3-4 shield-heals spells and sorcs have shield, heal and stun spells. i really hope this gets fixed

[Zeus]

I would gladly give rogues shield with its 2 sec invulnerability and have rogues with 30% less armor in exchange for 30% more armor for mages. Let me know if u want this because I'll start a thread over it. Also I never saw you filing a bug about the 50% crit bug on aimed shot. I guess you were all to happy to abuse that bug and say nothing.

To be fair, it was a hard bug to catch and not many knew about it. Heck, I wasn't aware until after the bug was patched.

[Bless]

To be fair, it was a hard bug to catch and not many knew about it. Heck, I wasn't aware until after the bug was patched. I was aware about crit stacks but didnt notice it was a bug.

@falmear I didnt see you reporting the mage shield either so, were all kinda guilty, if we were aware.

[katish]

Too bad a mage with curse can disable an entire army of rogues for good 5 seconds.
I really don't get what was going on in STS' minds when 1 skill can recoil as much damage as Alpha Wolf.
I have been and do die instantly from curse because I shot off 1 Aimshot lol???

it's an awful feeling to be 1 shot heh? :)




What more do you mages want seriously?
You got your crit and aimshot like skill (lightning which also adds stun)
You just got your piercing like skill that lets you run chase and flag as fast as us...
You got your 2s shield, & dmg reduction
You got your OP fireball stuns
You got heals that heals you instantly (whereas alot of rogues have to hunt for their heals b/c they drop randomly)
You got your Alpha Wolf Shield

I can go on and on with the list and frankly you can't name half those things that Rogues are advantaged in.
Only thing rooting for us is our 1 skill aimshot, and it's been nerfed I don't know how many times now and it's not a 100% 1 hit skill as it only does worthy damage if on Crit.



Love.. seriously? I've seen you play and take down full teams. what are you whining about!? :P anyways..

(i) regarding crit - rogues stack: aimed + high base crit + crit pets + crit blades. mages benefit from 1 crit skills that does not stack + crit pet.
(ii) regarding pierce - i guess we're on par now.
(iii) regarding defense - rogues have 30% more armor that last the entire fight, we have 2secs invulnerability on charged shield (provided it doesnt fail) and dmg reduction of 30% that lasts 10 secs. There is now a thread suggesting we make a trade off here.. go support it! on the other hand, shadow veil/razor shield provides 20% armor/dodge buff.. you could drop a offensive skill and pick a defensive one, but I guess you're not willing to make such a trade off.
(iv) regarding stuns - rogues get stuns from charged regular attack and pets. we get stuns from regular attacks, 2 charged skills and pets. there is a 8 sec immunity to stuns already in place to nerf mages overly using stun. We're on par here.
(v) regarding heal - rogues heal allows you to save packs for when you need it, so can throw your pack at beginning of fight and then again at the middle after cd is over. Mages heal is a one time use only.



Seems like you guys still want more? I say LOL to that.
Try playing rogue and compare before you start throwing out assumptions.

I have a mage and a rogue so I'm talking from experience.

My rogue kills warriors just fine, even maul warriors.
My rogue kills some mages, not all of them.. haven't tested this much yet, I'm sure I have room to improve here.
My mage cannot kill most warriors, let alone a maul one.
My mage can kill some rogues, not all.. if they know how to counter stun, im dead..

I too am talking from experience -.-

[gundamsone]

it's an awful feeling to be 1 shot heh? :)



Love.. seriously? I've seen you play and take down full teams. what are you whining about!? :P anyways..


Thank you for the compliment but i'm talking on behalf of the majority of rogues I see playing.
Players like Pyschopathic, and other curse mages just steamroll them (and this is before the buff this week)

I come from a MMO-PVP background so I got quite a bit of experience as a PKer/PVPer so how I perform in PVP isn't reflected in my posts.

The problem is when you buff 2/3 classes, 1 class is left out and you're bound to get rants.
This cycle won't stop b/c now Rogues are going to demand like Mages used to, and if we do get a buff then Mages will feel like they're behind and it's a never ending cycle from there.

And Katish may I ask who you are?
I've got a list of warriors that will give any Rogue a run for their money.
And lastly you can't base your judgement soley on a 1v1 Outcome.
CTF is designed for 5v5 not 1v1.

Imagine if you got what you want and a Mage can win Wars/Rogues with ease. Wouldn't that be F*$(#%( OP as hell since almost all you're attacks hits 5+ targets.

[gundamsone]

Also want to say this to all the Mages out there

Just because you can't beat a mauler in a 1v1 doesn't mean your class needs a buff.
For starters get an arcane staff so you're on par. I'm pretty sure if a War invested a 40m weapon, they should have the upperhand vs your 3m gun.

Come back and tell us the results when you get an Arcane staff.

[falmear]

To be fair, it was a hard bug to catch and not many knew about it. Heck, I wasn't aware until after the bug was patched.

I knew about this bug for quite a while and so did many rogues. Just because you didn't, doesn't mean many people didn't know about it. And according to one person "Every good rogue has known this since their first week playing":

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?97742-Aimed-shot-crit-duration-bug&p=1096472&viewfull=1#post1096472

[Cero]

cant stand this...Give the smurf a break! youre complaining cos you cant kill or other rogues cant?
You guys suck! I see many rogues who can kill. Go and rethink your spec or gameplay. from s2 til mid s3 smurfs
had the hell on them and other class espicialy the rogues, were just making their stats pretty.

on this point each class can kill and be killed, thats balance. Yes, sorc cried for a buff but when did they get answers?
it took more than 2seasons!!!!

[Zeus]

I knew about this bug for quite a while and so did many rogues. Just because you didn't, doesn't mean many people didn't know about it. And according to one person "Every good rogue has known this since their first week playing":

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?97742-Aimed-shot-crit-duration-bug&p=1096472&viewfull=1#post1096472

The one thing about this statement is this: how does one become a good rogue within their first week of playing?

Again, it was known to those who stacked aimed shot often and looked at their stats afterwards. A lot of rogues I have known, who many would consider good, did not know of this bug. Granted, many people did know of it, but an equal amount of people probably did not know of it & as a result, they charged aim shot.

[Zeus]

cant stand this...Give the smurf a break! youre complaining cos you cant kill or other rogues cant?
You guys suck! I see many rogues who can kill. Go and rethink your spec or gameplay. from s2 til mid s3 smurfs
had the hell on them and other class espicialy the rogues, were just making their stats pretty.

on this point each class can kill and be killed, thats balance. Yes, sorc cried for a buff but when did they get answers?
it took more than 2seasons!!!!

Actually, the same sorcerers that are usually complaining by the masses are the ones going against fully geared rogues and then complaining about rogues being OP.

Seriously, like Love said, do they expect their one mythic gun to conquer a full mythic + Samael rogue? Even after the buff, that's a laugh. Of course, some sorcerers are still going to state that they're underpowered when in reality, they're just outclassed by gear.

[Psykopathic28]

I would consider Energizeric to be one of those pros. He has made statements on the forums of having being able to beat most rogues with ease. So, that is testimony to the fact that rogues are NOT OP.

Again, I will reiterate. Just because a class is harder to master, like a bear in PL, does not mean the class was underpowered. It just takes more time to master that class and utilize it for killing.

Example A: I used to think warriors were weak in AL, but after fighting against them & learning how the pros fight, I retract that statement. Same thing goes with sorcerers. I used to think that they too are weak, but when the pros use the class to their true potential, it is obvious that the class WAS NOT weak.

The thing is, the number of complainers severely outnumber the number of players who actually know how to play their class. And, as shown, the complainers got their way instead of actually learning to utilize the class properly.

I don't think I could have said it much better. The only thing I will add is I think the current state of the game is the most balanced it has been since its release.

[Cero]

cant stand this...Give the smurf a break! youre complaining cos you cant kill or other rogues cant?
You guys suck! I see many rogues who can kill. Go and rethink your spec or gameplay. from s2 til mid s3 smurfs
had the hell on them and other class espicialy the rogues, were just making their stats pretty.

on this point each class can kill and be killed, thats balance. Yes, sorc cried for a buff but when did they get answers?
it took more than 2seasons!!!!

Actually, the same sorcerers that are usually complaining by the masses are the ones going against fully geared rogues and then complaining about rogues being OP.

Seriously, like Love said, do they expect their one mythic gun to conquer a full mythic + Samael rogue? Even after the buff, that's a laugh. Of course, some sorcerers are still going to state that they're underpowered when in reality, they're just outclassed by gear.



) who? which thread? cos after mythic gun got released and curse got buffed, Sorc class got boost. And on those timeline rogues where the one complaining.

Buff this buff that. hooks for pve blah blah blah...


I dont believe whatever he says. If he cant subdue the person he'll cuss you. empty words. One of, his saying his gonna post some pics of me spawn killling him.lmao
one sided story,his lame story.


I guess rogues got addicted to easy kills. "one-two click kill happy".shield got fix fine, sorc palyers already adapt so many times from the previews seasons. And rogues cant even manage? lol.

for other rogues that I know who manage from this update. GJ.

[Alfai]

How many mages killed u in pvp one x one since the update?

And how many warriors?

Oh yeah and how many of them did your kill? I'm willing to bet all of you did a lot more killing than dieing.

Sorry but you all seem to be talking theoretical before you actually experience these changes...

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando o Tapatalk 2


Ive pvped since update too.tho lesser than my usual hours spent but still valid to provide my feedback on the update.
Lost track how many ive killed.since i never really count.bt it did trigger or grab my attention to notice couple of changes of this update,that shouldnt be viewed as complaints (disagree on smtg not necessarily mean complaints btw) rather for for fruitful discussion.

Tanks and mages hv better crits and killing me beomes easier.im not gonna say its unfair since pvp is a versus between players without specific requirements on classes and open to all.so a rogue who is meant to make kills is expected for a stiffer competition since other classes now are rewarded with such ability.i agree in the end ultimately there will be no equal balance else the game core play is lost with a certain expiry date.

Mana pet does help yes but not all are keen to switch pets in the midst of battle since you are not fighting npc that you can plan attacks ahead.and we do know rogue (average even pros) roam with mali most of the time to buff their stats on hp and armour.and mana pets tho its a step we should consider to accommodate the update really do its job to replenish mana bt lesser stats ofc.still whilst rogues are struggling to keep up with the drastic mana lost,and use mana pet their vulnebarility is in fact exposed further more.so,if the mhytical balance that we all seeks is still perceived relevant in pvp,then other classes might be able to ponder or view rogue situation now from another angle-reviewing mana loss and skills cd timer for rogue does make sense for the class to achieve the said balance
For duel i.e tank i cant no longer duel with mali instead using mana pet like nexus and dodging and dancing more often than how the offensive moves normally be.thank god my toon doesnt sweat but fingers easily numb now.

Again to award other classes a better killing ability is comprehendable since its pvp.but rogue suffer -1 in totality of this update.

Btw 1v1 pvp i beg to differ its not meant as the parametre to measure balance among classes.you cant fight a tank for example by hvg similar movement behavior as clearly we have lesser armour and hp despite using high end gears.tank abd mage are gettig the dmg buff to cover the only significant cons of their classes.fair enough but imagine a rogue who is suffering other classes pros,yet no longer able to turn dmg into a significant edge..be it strategy,be it gears or skills or ping 1v1 include all these.no one can claim im undergeared as the path to gain tht edge you desire is open for public.if asking buffs coz of gear that aint right.

A common math of based stat for a rogue by maxing dex is used mostly by pink gears users as to maximize their dmg.even full mhytic does tht.fair point.so now rogue hv to consider allocating points in int to make up the mana issue.no excuse since we gotta adapt.fair point but we can all agree how this might scratch your head further to consider other elements tht has to been compensated in favour of "keeping up" which is not a tough thing to crack by other classes up to the update.so if amhw devs buff the losses of rogue in their def then perhaps this fair balance is achievable.(this is not a suggestion btw).simply said give others power to kill but give us good def and support in favour of the changes.

Btw lets use this thread as poibt of discussiob so sts can extract and weight the feedbacks to provide a solution if deemed necessary.i dont view it as complaints (tho i saw many complaints not views purely on rogues previously).if the views churned is not favourable to the outcome that the update is meant to provide it does not necessary means complaint.and its a norm to receive feedback within short period of update release.not all have the analytical minds to dive into the mechanics as this is in the end an entertainment product.also theres never been a specific mentioning of product testing period of each update release made by devs to give a buffer time to test an update.1week maybe an ideal time but depending on the scale of the changes no one can be certained.similar to hours,experience,skill ratinf and other elements like resources etc cn have an impact of how a player view and react towards an update.in the end we are all selfish as our views is never fully meant for the welfare of others.but good logics and facts for argument can mask that fact that provide the a premise that all can agree too.

Peace out.

Bad joke:an army of op rogues with absurd dmg ability cant win against an army of tanks or mages.this was before update and i dont intend to even test now.1v1?is it even the right parametre to be gaining buff on whats lacking.dont think thats tye ultimate essence of a duel in fact i dont see much usable facts to turn out for any buff request.its getting more emo now rather than a good analysis.afterall you will ultimately end up as each class and their roleplay.no ones fault its mmorpg basis.

[katish]

Thank you for the compliment but i'm talking on behalf of the majority of rogues I see playing.
Players like Pyschopathic, and other curse mages just steamroll them (and this is before the buff this week)

I come from a MMO-PVP background so I got quite a bit of experience as a PKer/PVPer so how I perform in PVP isn't reflected in my posts.

The problem is when you buff 2/3 classes, 1 class is left out and you're bound to get rants.
This cycle won't stop b/c now Rogues are going to demand like Mages used to, and if we do get a buff then Mages will feel like they're behind and it's a never ending cycle from there.


Again, from my earlier post, considering each classes skills.. how is that not balanced? mages were brought on par, that's all I see. Please feel free to comment in each of the points I enumerated to provided your insight as to how op mages are compared to rogues?


And Katish may I ask who you are?

IGN in signatures silly :)



I've got a list of warriors that will give any Rogue a run for their money.
And lastly you can't base your judgement soley on a 1v1 Outcome.
CTF is designed for 5v5 not 1v1.

Imagine if you got what you want and a Mage can win Wars/Rogues with ease. Wouldn't that be F*$(#%( OP as hell since almost all you're attacks hits 5+ targets.

The majority of the rogues out there aren't a challenge for psykopathic. Just like the majority of the mages out there aren't a challenge for you.
I agree we cant base our judgment on 1v1 outcomes, so this whole point is mute. Mine and yours.

In a 5v5 match, provided both teams have a mix of classes and are somewhat equally geared, it's a pretty balanced match now.

I never said I wanted mages to win wars/rogues with ease or with dificulty.

[katish]

Mana pet does help yes but not all are keen to switch pets in the midst of battle since you are not fighting npc that you can plan attacks ahead.and we do know rogue (average even pros) roam with mali most of the time to buff their stats on hp and armour.and mana pets tho its a step we should consider to accommodate the update really do its job to replenish mana bt lesser stats ofc.still whilst rogues are struggling to keep up with the drastic mana lost,and use mana pet their vulnebarility is in fact exposed further more.so,if the mhytical balance that we all seeks is still perceived relevant in pvp,then other classes might be able to ponder or view rogue situation now from another angle-reviewing mana loss and skills cd timer for rogue does make sense for the class to achieve the said balance
For duel i.e tank i cant no longer duel with mali instead using mana pet like nexus and dodging and dancing more often than how the offensive moves normally be.thank god my toon doesnt sweat but fingers easily numb now.

That's the whole point alfai. Rogues are not used to making trade offs. Why is it so impossible for rogues to consider lowering their dmg or giving up an offensive skill in pvp?

And in 5v5 matches mana really isn't an issue because you usually have a mage to replenish you, so I can only see mana being a problem in 1v1 duels or matches without a mage. And if you find yourself in a match without a mage on your side, invite one! Mages want to be wanted! A 5v5 match to be balanced should require a mix of classes.



Bad joke:an army of op rogues with absurd dmg ability cant win against an army of tanks or mages.this was before update and i dont intend to even test now.1v1?is it even the right parametre to be gaining buff on whats lacking.dont think thats tye ultimate essence of a duel in fact i dont see much usable facts to turn out for any buff request.its getting more emo now rather than a good analysis.afterall you will ultimately end up as each class and their roleplay.no ones fault its mmorpg basis.

This might be true, but then again the game isn't supposed to be balanced for a 1-class-only team.

[Alfai]

That's the whole point alfai. Rogues are not used to making trade offs. Why is it so impossible for rogues to consider lowering their dmg or giving up an offensive skill in pvp?

And in 5v5 matches mana really isn't an issue because you usually have a mage to replenish you, so I can only see mana being a problem in 1v1 duels or matches without a mage. And if you find yourself in a match without a mage on your side, invite one! Mages want to be wanted! A 5v5 match to be balanced should require a mix of classes.



This might be true, but then again the game isn't supposed to be balanced for a 1-class-only team.

Indeed it is.a direct solution to cover the loss of mana is to use mana pet.agreed tho debatable still.i dont think its uncommon to fear when a rogue is not excelling or doing wht they are meant to be.in this case its not the fear of having to reduce dmf to compensate for higher mana and hp.i personally doing that even.but the crux is when the damage is not on par as an offensive output of a class.imagine a tank who cant tank or mages who cant suppprt (putting aside other enhancements like gears or pets).the core essence of being a rogue class to kill cant be relied upon anymore.its not a small thing to me as its like altering a huge part of the game mechanics.if a tank loses its hp edge but better dmg cn he tank or be called a tank still.and this is a fact tgat rogue is at its worst since dmg is the most desirable element of all classes now despite the diff in purpose.and being rogue with no updates on their defense and now mana make em even more useless.if theres a rogue who cn work its way out of this and keeping his streaks without a threat thts beyond pro.but one thing for sure its a hellish journey or a deficit investment of resource to get even not even gaining an edge yet.

so the ultimate question wpuld be does rogue deserve to be in such condition based on the premise of fairness?we are perhaps using high end pink gears as basis for arguments.but getting good gears for buff etc is a fair competition where effforts and luck in smaller prcntg are still fair as it does not vary between classes.tk dmg n crits since thts wht matters but would others agree if rogue receives buff on hp and mana.so far from the threads in forum its a taboo and receive instant hatred but why not to make things seem balanced?give rogue whts they obviously lacking in def.if we wana create balance u need to contra the transactions.lesser lethal dmg but better defense.

I believe you have witnessed how a tank can solo a kill easily now or how a mage can function like they using bow just crits from a distance.even hidinf behind walls wont escape you from the lightning hit.in fact for a pvper its a new scene to see smurf pvping without having healing ability which immediately conflictinf with the support role.if a rogue needs a supporting attacks then this class got issue..yes i agree many ways to look into this on reviewing the best upgrades for rogue to stay competitive.in fact the solution might lies in the pvp room environment itself with enhancements made to help rogue to be useful.the season is fairly new and pperhaps more time is needed to define the actual issue or workingg solutions without affecting classes (with exception to rogues ofc).however to date the consistent feedback has been talking bout rogue costly mana consumption so perhaps its something to look at.the issue must be
mutually acceptable by all without any statements of making an overpowered class.

Tbh rogue is the class to fear the rest now since the request of dmg buffs is granted.but do u think its a fair and competitive challenge to fight a rogue now at this condition simply other classes are getting better dmg?we see clearly rogues advantage of dmg but the disadvantage which is more since its affecting how long rpgue can lasts in an encounter seems less important.im not sure whats fair since we are not gettinf any enhancements on defense either?if the hatred comes from rogue ability to kill then altering the concept of a class and their role simply to make em killer too can be a virus that crippled the game soon.i dont think its an overly thought of aftermath but worth a thought.and lets not forget other considerable factors than just getting better at making kills since the game and its platforms has specific objective.no doubt killing is the essence in the end so if we arent willing to dig deep for a contructive solution then make rogues or skills cost more practical for competitive reason.then its gf.just my honest and humble views.i dont think anyone would be satisfy knowing that they got my weapon and kill me without me having their armour.

[Bless]

No, just no. The way balance is atm rogues dont need tradeoffs. Mages couldve used a crit pet (ribbit) to crit on skills but devs still buffed them. We as a damage class have got 30 less dmg than a mage - mages have that extra 30 dmg to play with, so they dont NEED 3 offensive skills. Whereas, rogues barely do enough damage after the dmg nerf that we need 3 offensive skills + a mana buff because we have been the least buffed class past two seasons.

So this was how the seasons went:

season 2 (pvp start) - Warriors had the advantages
season 3: Rogues had the advantages
season 4: Mages + rogues had the advantages
season 5: mages + warriors have the advantages
recent update: ONLY warriors and mages benefitted.

Looking at the recent update: Rogues need a mana buff since others got buffed too, it ONLY seems fair right?

[Uzii]

No, just no. The way balance is atm rogues dont need tradeoffs. Mages couldve used a crit pet (ribbit) to crit on skills but devs still buffed them. We as a damage class have got 30 less dmg than a mage - mages have that extra 30 dmg to play with, so they dont NEED 3 offensive skills. Whereas, rogues barely do enough damage after the dmg nerf that we need 3 offensive skills + a mana buff because we have been the least buffed class past two seasons.

So this was how the seasons went:

season 2 (pvp start) - Warriors had the advantages
season 3: Rogues had the advantages
season 4: Mages + rogues had the advantages
season 5: mages + warriors have the advantages
recent update: ONLY warriors and mages benefitted.

Looking at the recent update: Rogues need a mana buff since others got buffed too, it ONLY seems fair right?

So all this is abt its not that u cant beat them, or dont stand a chance at all, but only just that rogues didnt get buffed?

[Alfai]

That's the whole point alfai. Rogues are not used to making trade offs. Why is it so impossible for rogues to consider lowering their dmg or giving up an offensive skill in pvp?

And in 5v5 matches mana really isn't an issue because you usually have a mage to replenish you, so I can only see mana being a problem in 1v1 duels or matches without a mage. And if you find yourself in a match without a mage on your side, invite one! Mages want to be wanted! A 5v5 match to be balanced should require a mix of classes.



This might be true, but then again the game isn't supposed to be balanced for a 1-class-only team.

Sorry for doubling quote but i am not good at effectively posting in forums.

I have to disagree with the points of rogue cant do tradeoffs.its a symptome for ALL classes not just rogues.the dmg and crits buff request in fact expanded thru various seasons and can be verified with comments mad in this thread.so it makes perfect sense me its nvr a solely rogue issue but other classes seems to make the request better especially in terms of consitency and determination.i believe this was fueled by exhaustion of ways not even using dmg weapons or dmg pet.so by asking rogues to adapt is acceptable but do consider whether the scale is relevant or simply not.

Giving up their offensive edge is not the main issue at least for me.and i do agree that the proposal to nerf that dmg is not given proper thought.but one thing we can agree is that rogue is requesting to excel at their,does this reflect other classes motives to persistently wanting to explore the roles beyond their selected class?i dont think rogue is desperate for assistance to kill.its their role.and in pve rogue is not really getting support if thts what mage class important roles to do to keep the party alive.we rely heavily on pots.but i have yet to seen a rogue asking to review their defense or making their roles useful again at such negativity level.
We find ways to adapt.in fact uve heard the term of tanking rogues or rogues with hp prone for arena.where does the xtra point came from if not from dex?and i personally think rogue is the most versatile class that has many ways to explore and adapt too without cobsideration of unfinished gears rogue tht shud be the basis fot discussion reference.we cant make request we gotra adapt fine and it lasted for few seasons if im not wrong.and its a fact whatever a rogue does is not jistifiable to what at expense but we gotta deal with it.so the biggie bout rogue fatality aimed crits (which is by chance and not a guaranteed success) is such a problem.we all know rogue short duration of life expense and survival just get or buff ur armour or mana pools so tht small dmg amoubt can kill a rogue since u survive longer and less taking dmg.and in pvp why u wanna kill easily like a rogue?

i am not among who make naive request to buff rogue dmg coz its less lethal now.thats plain stupid and obviously making rogue op.in fact rogue dmg is not even the highlight in fact survivability is the issue.mana is the fuel for all class to function so why is it a taboo for rogue mana pool to be reviewed then as part of possible solutions?if you fear that rogues will kill better once getting this upgrade then 2 questions.why we are not allowing rogue to kill better when its their main role.2nd why fear such thing when the gap of the dmg diff is minute or in fact even bow?shouldnt rogue pee in their pants now as all hv the equal or close to equal chance of dealing dmg but none in defense that is a privellege and greatly utilized by other classes?

I hope the above can shed some lights to rethink before disagreeing to a request to make us competitive.

[zwapper]

i just want to make a comment on this thread.
well!!! lately i check my build of my low lvl twink to my lvl 32 mage and the outcome is good...
i tried it on pvp and 3rouges vs my lvl32 sorc without any good gear (i mean most of my gears are blue and lvl 30 items) won the battle. one of them is lvl 33 (higher than my lvl)
so, i did the same thing with other players (all rouges) in another match and the outcome is the same. most of the time i won even they 3v1 me...

so, in my opinion about my experience being undergear, and with a lvl gap thing... I think sorc has a good advantage over rouges this season...

that is based on my experience in pvp... about warrior, i never tried any pvp with them using high lvl toons so no comment as for now...

[Psykopathic28]

No, just no. The way balance is atm rogues dont need tradeoffs. Mages couldve used a crit pet (ribbit) to crit on skills but devs still buffed them. We as a damage class have got 30 less dmg than a mage - mages have that extra 30 dmg to play with, so they dont NEED 3 offensive skills. Whereas, rogues barely do enough damage after the dmg nerf that we need 3 offensive skills + a mana buff because we have been the least buffed class past two seasons.

So this was how the seasons went:

season 2 (pvp start) - Warriors had the advantages
season 3: Rogues had the advantages
season 4: Mages + rogues had the advantages
season 5: mages + warriors have the advantages
recent update: ONLY warriors and mages benefitted.

Looking at the recent update: Rogues need a mana buff since others got buffed too, it ONLY seems fair right?

In 1v1 situation I will tell you for a fact that rogues now stand a better chance against sorcerers in this season than last. With that being said I wouldn't argue a VERY SLIGHT mana buff to rogues (maybe like a 5% regen on razor shield or something of the nature) might not be that bad of a request, as long as they don't make you completely self sufficient, because no matter what any1 says no class is self sufficient at everything. The reasoning is basically the same as why warriors and mages needed their damage / crit respectively, damage reduction to all classes update.

[Soundlesskill]

There is something on razor, ive noticed... Mana buff or something I dont know, a friend of mine noticed too.

[Alfai]

It bothers me when i gotta rely on mana pet to patch a solution to the mana issue and make do with just that.even investing points in int and hv little effect tht hardly makes a difference.or carefully plan the skill like final fantasy in a real time battle so no wasted mana for spamming attacks.the similar outcome tht its still an unfair and unjust adaptation for rogues are immediately becoming a taboo and rejected.nothing wrong in terms of suggesting a solution but its an obvious example of inputs that is neither constructive nor thoughtful.in fact its not a stpd competitive request and at least for cap players these are among the top mind actions taken before writing a thread to review it or cracking their heads to use mana pets.ust like how others which i believe put many efforts to explore ways to earn better dmg and making kills tho it has expanded thru many seasons.i think im nt just disturbed bt inslted in some ways too on behalf of us rogues.

perhaps we need more mana packs in pvp exclusive to rogues thts a possible solution too.or better monopoly of certain gears and profits earned at a recognized level or exclusove higher discount on mana pots.in fact why not review medic by including mana seems the support role of other classes arent there and all classes now has to play independently.thts basicslly revamping mmorpg right.i think so too.

Btw i beg to differ on mages consistent healing role in pvp as its nt what ive seen as much as i dont see you often.not comparing the hourd spent in pvp maybe its just time diff but thsts what i am experiencing nw with many different players and joining many rooms.hence what you described was more of how pvp ws last season.its a shocker at first but again as rogue im trying to adapt with mage running in pvp room like a gangsta having no heal ability.the ususl response is im on max dmg build.hmm...mana packs hs nvr been tht valuable nw and perhaps the most competitive element is pvp now since all classes despite their mana ability chasing for the same packs.if you are denying this i must say u pvp less hence why i hardly see u too.no disredpect meant.i invited mages too in a gsng fight only to learn that most mages ive seen in pvp now are tanking for us.charging and eager to kill.they cn do tht by manipulating the given abilities which i deemed ss an added challenge rather than requesting to nerf and buffs.so we are now competing among us in in the ssme tesm perhaps to get the most kills.this is def conflicting with the mechanics dont u think.

I am not going to provide my points for argument further as it has transpired in other thread perhaps.but for none rogues who is satisfactory to kill us rogues now i must say on my behalf its not even a challenge that we can be proud of.but its the opposite feeling of emotionsl rewards for us rogues if we still can kill you despitethe other hands being tighted.GF?u tell me.

Hope the diff in skills is not brought up else ill be foruming longer than playing.as the skills cant keep up with the update from the perspective of rogues in general (not even mhytic) which i believe is fair.

And to add the points for saying its not right the scenario of team of similar class.my question then why other classes eager to kill now?is it your role in pvp.yes pvo has changed from flagging to win to purely murdering your opponents.since we all agreeing not via words but by appearinf in pvp room and playing still,why bother about kills?i dont think its boring to hv 1v1 among rogues coz its thrilling fast and vicious.yet other classes keep askingbfor duels in pvp simply to go beyond the class role coz u get killed by rogues who simply doing their job.

I must admit.its an insult to the rogue community.


You know thr feeling of undergears killing a full mhytic player?they grin like a jkass.its the same feeling i admit.

[Psykopathic28]

In reply to that so I don't quote huge thing.

Rogues did get the least out of this update but as dozens have stated they have had huge advantages in the past. This obviously is not what any1 should want, the goal is balance. Sorry to offend Pve people but rogues still own times runs. Whoopdy do! Pve you work together with all classes so slight advantages in disadvantages not that big of a deal. In pvp class imbalances make much more of a difference.

With that being said I will start with warriors. The thing they have always been the worst at is killing. The devs gave em a lil boost, for the most part every1 seems to be happy with it yeah?

Mages have always had 2 big problems. Flagging and survivabilty , killing has never been an issue for a good sorcerer IMO. Wind now gets a forward buff so now we can flag. 1 of 2 problems solved. The 2nd issue is yes we have 2 seconds if invulnerability but as soon as our shield goes down it's like a huge neon sign saying "free kill". The new changes to skills have allowed some smarter sorcerers who can take advantage of wind to somewhat negate this obstacle, though not completely. We still have huge gaps in our defense that a smart rogue can patiently wait and find. If your dying to fast maybe you should drop some dex for some str and suck it up like I do in my build. Not to be rude but you can't expect to be 100% dex and be invincible.

Rogues have had the 1 big problem, mana. I agree that the low amount of mana is annoying but is the only real hindrance of the class. It does cause you to rely on sorcs a little bit as sorcs had to rely on warriors for seasons before for protection. I know that doesn't feel great and it should be fixed to an extent, however I still do not believe you should be 100% self sufficient in mana or else take a loss somewhere else because then you wouldn't have any flaws left at all. Mages still have defensive gaps and lower armor. Warriors still can't put out as much damage. For this I said add a lil buff to razor shield. That forces you to use a move that is mostly forgotten as sts did to sorcerers with wind. If you won't accept that idea and you are completely set on the health packs idea. Sacrife the 3rd heal pack attribute for an attribute that will drop 1x 50% mana pack in its place.

In a 1v1 also for a sorc to take down a rogue we have to drop heal because our damage output still isn't enough to kill a good rogue who can wait out our curse and shield. With your heal packs we are basically taking down 2 health bars to 1. Our only chance there is if you waste your mana early or play stupid. If we spec heal packs you can beat your cool down time and get more packs before we can do enough damage unless we get a couple lightning crits. I'm not trying to whine and say fix my flaws either. I'm happy with my flaws. I honestly do just want the most balanced pvp possible.

[Alfai]

Fair views psyk.
Not gonna requote tht too many long posts today lol.

I ustand based on the brief background described which i can conclude the angst were mostly due to the wait and it easily trigger any development for rogues.perhaps since its basing on skills devs might put more faith and invested heavily on rogue classes,perhaps with the forecast that this class was the prime focus at that point of time.so earlier rogues did benefit for time taken to set a point of balance for classes with my understanding being a tedious process.then its not hard to understand the emotion behind arguments of denying attention or request to enhance rogues still other classes suffered within time and rogues being sneaky not all might have manipulated or abusing the time buffer to farm kills.so by not even at par to defend agains unmatachable dmg n crits hence why the negative sentiment build up over time.thanks for sharing this.

I cant say theres anyone to blame.in fact all were victims of the past situation.tanks and mages suffer defeats and unable to even compete at pure class levels.devs to take some time to carefully plan and roll out the upgrades and rogues too especilly those who werent abusing the flaw and new players.so basically none got special attention as all were victim of time.

Since the update has given the edge that was seek it shouldnt be taken back or reviewed.im pretty sure it was never a request from the majority of rogues esp the long time players.its a fair deal to compete witg rogue ability.i agree this is rightly done based on the history of this matter.but since its the past and achieving a fair play (plus minus slight edge diff on all classes) then its not wrong to also review the mana issue for rogue this season.for the same goal of staying competitive without being taken advantage like what has happened.i am glad i wasnt one of the rogues who were opportunists and i also apologize for such a bad experiebce.i can totally understand now the rage behind it.bt i trust most of us are ready to put it behind and up for challenge now especially the 2 classes that have waited.

I believe most rogues can agree on asking dev to review the mana pool or skills cost/cd for rogues this season.and the solution is fine if somehow its not necessarily on buffing stats etc.if said other elements i.e environment can be tweaked to reduce the gap of mana disadvantage i would be grateful even.we might have to wait and the cycle might repeat itself but im putting my faith in devs commitment to find a working solution,hopefully without a long delay that no one deserve to bear.in fact if a temporary solution cn be given without comprimising other classes can be found that works too.i am not saying its a huge suffering at least for me personally.tho i can still juggle to adapt the rest of players might not be so lucky like me and they too dont deserve such experience or having to bear rhe impact that might ruin their first expectation.

Looking for a healthier challenge since the classes are heading towards the goal of making the competition fair and thrilling as even as it can be.that i strongly agree and looking forward to it :)

[Taejo]

In reply to that so I don't quote huge thing.

Rogues did get the least out of this update but as dozens have stated they have had huge advantages in the past. This obviously is not what any1 should want, the goal is balance. Sorry to offend Pve people but rogues still own times runs. Whoopdy do! Pve you work together with all classes so slight advantages in disadvantages not that big of a deal. In pvp class imbalances make much more of a difference.

With that being said I will start with warriors. The thing they have always been the worst at is killing. The devs gave em a lil boost, for the most part every1 seems to be happy with it yeah?

Mages have always had 2 big problems. Flagging and survivabilty , killing has never been an issue for a good sorcerer IMO. Wind now gets a forward buff so now we can flag. 1 of 2 problems solved. The 2nd issue is yes we have 2 seconds if invulnerability but as soon as our shield goes down it's like a huge neon sign saying "free kill". The new changes to skills have allowed some smarter sorcerers who can take advantage of wind to somewhat negate this obstacle, though not completely. We still have huge gaps in our defense that a smart rogue can patiently wait and find. If your dying to fast maybe you should drop some dex for some str and suck it up like I do in my build. Not to be rude but you can't expect to be 100% dex and be invincible.

Rogues have had the 1 big problem, mana. I agree that the low amount of mana is annoying but is the only real hindrance of the class. It does cause you to rely on sorcs a little bit as sorcs had to rely on warriors for seasons before for protection. I know that doesn't feel great and it should be fixed to an extent, however I still do not believe you should be 100% self sufficient in mana or else take a loss somewhere else because then you wouldn't have any flaws left at all. Mages still have defensive gaps and lower armor. Warriors still can't put out as much damage. For this I said add a lil buff to razor shield. That forces you to use a move that is mostly forgotten as sts did to sorcerers with wind. If you won't accept that idea and you are completely set on the health packs idea. Sacrife the 3rd heal pack attribute for an attribute that will drop 1x 50% mana pack in its place.

In a 1v1 also for a sorc to take down a rogue we have to drop heal because our damage output still isn't enough to kill a good rogue who can wait out our curse and shield. With your heal packs we are basically taking down 2 health bars to 1. Our only chance there is if you waste your mana early or play stupid. If we spec heal packs you can beat your cool down time and get more packs before we can do enough damage unless we get a couple lightning crits. I'm not trying to whine and say fix my flaws either. I'm happy with my flaws. I honestly do just want the most balanced pvp possible.

Very well constructed post. I'd have to say I agree with the majority of it. It's nice to see another post with virtually no bias involved :)

Not to sound like a broken record, but everyone please keep in mind that we still don't know exactly what the upcoming rogue changes will be. The devs already posted that they are slowly but surely working to make PvP a more interesting experience, and this involves several changes to every class along the way. The first update changed the heals and damage in PvP. This to me seems like a fundamental change, and its good that STG implemented this first to keep things balanced. Whenever you overhaul a system such as PvP, you need to start from the bottom up - otherwise it just gets messy. I think the dmg/heal changes are exactly this. The most recent update was in favor of sorcerers and warriors. Ok, great, and yes a little unfair for rogues. However, let's continue to provide our constructive feedback - without pointing out imbalance - and live with it until the next big update which might balance things out. I can almost guarantee you the next big update will include rogue changes, so stay patient! Hopefully they give you a slight mana benefit, like what Jen suggested with Razor Shield. However, Psykopathic is absolutely correct in pointing out that every class needs to have some sort of flaw to maximize balance in PvP. If they go too far and give rogues an overpowered mana-regenerating ability, then rogues will have virtually no flaws left to balance things out. That's why it needs to be a slight enhancement.

EDIT: To add one last thought - PvP takes a long time to fix and/or improve. I realize patience is a virtue, but it may very well take a few months until we see a nearly perfect PvP system in place. I agree with most in saying that it was pretty balanced during Season 4; but if STG wants to change it and make it more captivating for it's players to experience and enjoy, then I'm all for it. It will just take some time.

[drgrimmy]

It bothers me when i gotta rely on mana pet to patch a solution to the mana issue and make do with just that.even investing points in int and hv little effect tht hardly makes a difference.or carefully plan the skill like final fantasy in a real time battle so no wasted mana for spamming attacks.the similar outcome tht its still an unfair and unjust adaptation for rogues are immediately becoming a taboo and rejected.nothing wrong in terms of suggesting a solution but its an obvious example of inputs that is neither constructive nor thoughtful.in fact its not a stpd competitive request and at least for cap players these are among the top mind actions taken before writing a thread to review it or cracking their heads to use mana pets.ust like how others which i believe put many efforts to explore ways to earn better dmg and making kills tho it has expanded thru many seasons.i think im nt just disturbed bt inslted in some ways too on behalf of us rogues.

perhaps we need more mana packs in pvp exclusive to rogues thts a possible solution too.or better monopoly of certain gears and profits earned at a recognized level or exclusove higher discount on mana pots.in fact why not review medic by including mana seems the support role of other classes arent there and all classes now has to play independently.thts basicslly revamping mmorpg right.i think so too.

Btw i beg to differ on mages consistent healing role in pvp as its nt what ive seen as much as i dont see you often.not comparing the hourd spent in pvp maybe its just time diff but thsts what i am experiencing nw with many different players and joining many rooms.hence what you described was more of how pvp ws last season.its a shocker at first but again as rogue im trying to adapt with mage running in pvp room like a gangsta having no heal ability.the ususl response is im on max dmg build.hmm...mana packs hs nvr been tht valuable nw and perhaps the most competitive element is pvp now since all classes despite their mana ability chasing for the same packs.if you are denying this i must say u pvp less hence why i hardly see u too.no disredpect meant.i invited mages too in a gsng fight only to learn that most mages ive seen in pvp now are tanking for us.charging and eager to kill.they cn do tht by manipulating the given abilities which i deemed ss an added challenge rather than requesting to nerf and buffs.so we are now competing among us in in the ssme tesm perhaps to get the most kills.this is def conflicting with the mechanics dont u think.

I am not going to provide my points for argument further as it has transpired in other thread perhaps.but for none rogues who is satisfactory to kill us rogues now i must say on my behalf its not even a challenge that we can be proud of.but its the opposite feeling of emotionsl rewards for us rogues if we still can kill you despitethe other hands being tighted.GF?u tell me.

Hope the diff in skills is not brought up else ill be foruming longer than playing.as the skills cant keep up with the update from the perspective of rogues in general (not even mhytic) which i believe is fair.

And to add the points for saying its not right the scenario of team of similar class.my question then why other classes eager to kill now?is it your role in pvp.yes pvo has changed from flagging to win to purely murdering your opponents.since we all agreeing not via words but by appearinf in pvp room and playing still,why bother about kills?i dont think its boring to hv 1v1 among rogues coz its thrilling fast and vicious.yet other classes keep askingbfor duels in pvp simply to go beyond the class role coz u get killed by rogues who simply doing their job.

I must admit.its an insult to the rogue community.


You know thr feeling of undergears killing a full mhytic player?they grin like a jkass.its the same feeling i admit.

Thank you for you thoughtful post. I am sorry but I am having a hard time understanding the bolded paragraph. Are you saying that rogues are the only class that should be concerned with killing and the only class that should be doing 1v1 duels? Should everyone but warriors be concerned with flagging? Where does that leave the sorcerer in terms of goals and achievements in pvp? Are we there only to support rogues and warriors? I would be fine with this aside from how the achievements and leaderboards are set up. Clearly there are achievements for killing and flagging in pvp, but none for the nebulous support role of the sorcerer in pvp. It is no surprise to me that sorcerers want to be competitive in pvp in terms of kills and flags.

Don't really know what the solution is, but I must say that with this being my 4th season in pvp I don't find that sorcerers do markedly better or worse in the killing department, even in 1v1 fights vs rogues. It has always been easiest for sorcerers to kill rogues and hardest for sorcerers to kill warriors. I think the perceived changes and imbalances in pvp cause by these changes are not as drastic as everyone is making them out to be. If anything, the most drastic changes made to a class in pvp were to warriors who were pretty unstoppable in season two. Almost all warriors in season two were like fighting full mythic and arcane maul warriors this season.

[csyui]

Rogue mana buff
Sorcerer armor buff
Warr dmg buff
--- Problem solved :congratulatory:

This is CTF (teamwork game), not 1v1. I always thought kills & capture LB ruins the CTF. :apologetic:
Please make another LB for score, like what lol/dota did. (win a ctf game gain 10pts, lose one -5 pts, end gamer receive bonus pts)

[Soundlesskill]

In reply to that so I don't quote huge thing.

Rogues did get the least out of this update but as dozens have stated they have had huge advantages in the past. This obviously is not what any1 should want, the goal is balance. Sorry to offend Pve people but rogues still own times runs. Whoopdy do! Pve you work together with all classes so slight advantages in disadvantages not that big of a deal. In pvp class imbalances make much more of a difference.

Oh please! Mages own that lb page as much as rouge

With that being said I will start with warriors. The thing they have always been the worst at is killing. The devs gave em a lil boost, for the most part every1 seems to be happy with it yeah?

Mages have always had 2 big problems. Flagging and survivabilty , killing has never been an issue for a good sorcerer IMO. Wind now gets a forward buff so now we can flag. 1 of 2 problems solved. The 2nd issue is yes we have 2 seconds if invulnerability but as soon as our shield goes down it's like a huge neon sign saying "free kill". The new changes to skills have allowed some smarter sorcerers who can take advantage of wind to somewhat negate this obstacle, though not completely. We still have huge gaps in our defense that a smart rogue can patiently wait and find. If your dying to fast maybe you should drop some dex for some str and suck it up like I do in my build. Not to be rude but you can't expect to be 100% dex and be invincible.

OH PLEASE! ROUGES HAVE THE LEAST HP. And as someone else already stated shield gives 30% armor buff something. Rouge have around 1,2-1,3k armor. Mages 1,1k + 30% = idk but a lot more + 2 sec godlike being. And if that isn't enough you get 30% or so armor buff while shiled is up after that 2sec. Leaves your armor pretty much the same as ours. If you wanna complaing about low armor then I'd like to remind you there's passive def, I had that. Also rouges have the lowest HP of All classes. Armor doesn't matter as much when it comes to rouges and mages cause we pretty much die equally. You think rouges likes it when another rouge crits our super low hp out? Armor didn't help any of us there. Rouges doesn't even have a hield with 2sec invincibility leavin us with that neon sign. Maybe try and hide behind a warr some more like us. Reason it's hard to kill us is cause we hide and kite. All you gotta do is walk right past warr to us and shoot lighting and we drop dead

In a 1v1 also for a sorc to take down a rogue we have to drop heal because our damage output still isn't enough to kill a good rogue who can wait out our curse and shield.
NOT true, your dmg output is Now plenty


Just my 1038 cent

[birdmasta]

whoa i recently just tried pvp... i believe now that 5 mages can defeat 5 warriors... the dmg output from sorceror is insane now (i still love my sorc tho)

[Frohnatur]

Thank you for you thoughtful post. I am sorry but I am having a hard time understanding the bolded paragraph. Are you saying that rogues are the only class that should be concerned with killing and the only class that should be doing 1v1 duels? Should everyone but warriors be concerned with flagging? Where does that leave the sorcerer in terms of goals and achievements in pvp? Are we there only to support rogues and warriors? I would be fine with this aside from how the achievements and leaderboards are set up. Clearly there are achievements for killing and flagging in pvp, but none for the nebulous support role of the sorcerer in pvp. It is no surprise to me that sorcerers want to be competitive in pvp in terms of kills and flags.

Don't really know what the solution is, but I must say that with this being my 4th season in pvp I don't find that sorcerers do markedly better or worse in the killing department, even in 1v1 fights vs rogues. It has always been easiest for sorcerers to kill rogues and hardest for sorcerers to kill warriors. I think the perceived changes and imbalances in pvp cause by these changes are not as drastic as everyone is making them out to be. If anything, the most drastic changes made to a class in pvp were to warriors who were pretty unstoppable in season two. Almost all warriors in season two were like fighting full mythic and arcane maul warriors this season.


To the point. Thanks.

[Psykopathic28]

whoa i recently just tried pvp... i believe now that 5 mages can defeat 5 warriors... the dmg output from sorceror is insane now (i still love my sorc tho)

In season 3 5x Mage beat 5x warrior. Didnt try in season 4 but I'm sure it was plenty possible

[gundamsone]

In season 3 5x Mage beat 5x warrior. Didnt try in season 4 but I'm sure it was plenty possible
& 5 Rogues can't beat anything.

you've basically said your class is OP and doesn't need any more buffing

[Psykopathic28]

& 5 Rogues can't beat anything.

you've basically said your class is OP and doesn't need any more buffing

You know that's not what I said. That's what you just said. :p

[katish]

Just my 1038 cent

I won't quote everything cuz it was a big..

(i) regarding crit - rogues stack: aimed + high base crit + crit pets + crit blades. mages benefit from 1 crit skills that does not stack + crit pet.
(ii) regarding pierce - i guess we're on par now.
(iii) regarding defense - rogues have 30% more armor that last the entire fight, we have 2secs invulnerability on charged shield (provided it doesnt fail) and dmg reduction of 30% that lasts 10 secs. There is now a thread suggesting we make a trade off here.. go support it! on the other hand, shadow veil/razor shield provides 20% armor/dodge buff.. you could drop a offensive skill and pick a defensive one, but I guess you're not willing to make such a trade off.
(iv) regarding stuns - rogues get stuns from charged regular attack and pets. we get stuns from regular attacks, 2 charged skills and pets. there is a 8 sec immunity to stuns already in place to nerf mages overly using stun. We're on par here.
(v) regarding heal - rogues heal allows you to save packs for when you need it, so can throw your pack at beginning of fight and then again at the middle after cd is over. Mages heal is a one time use only.

edit regarding defense - rogues and mages have roughly the same hp.


NOT true, your dmg output is Now plenty
Rogues have twice the damage output of mages. This was tested against Ferrix and in PVP. Even though the sorcerer in question had 20 more dmg in toon page, my rogue aimed shot did 2x the damage of lightning.

[Taejo]

edit regarding defense - rogues and mages have roughly the same hp.

First off, very nice post, Meecah. Also, I agree with the above quoted statement. I am boggled of the amount of "sorcs have more HP than rogues" claims in this thread. I am simply not seeing this to be true - and I'm going out of my way every time I'm online to inspect sorcs/rogues in order to verify this. Rogues have slightly more HP from what I've seen thus far. Of course, it really depends on gear and jewelry choices. A lot of players are using the new legendary rings from Shuyal now, which put a significant dent in their HP pool when compared to the Bloodruby. Even if rogues and sorcs do indeed have equal HP at end-game, I see it as a way to balance the classes out since sorcerers have 30% less armor, less dodge, are more susceptible to being 1 or 2-shot.

EDIT: Also, it's quite possible many sorcerers have "more HP" because they are putting points into Might for the Arcane Shield benefits as well as more HP. This can't be seen as a class imbalance if rogues are refusing to put points into the same passive skill. Just like warriors shouldn't complain about mana if they don't put points into Intellect or Vengeful Blood. We all have to make sacrifices somewhere in our end-game builds. I still agree that rogues need another skill that affords them mana, however.

[Soundlesskill]

I won't quote everything cuz it was a big..

(i) regarding crit - rogues stack: aimed + high base crit + crit pets + crit blades. mages benefit from 1 crit skills that does not stack + crit pet.

Critring doesnt necssarily mean high dmg. I crit 0 now and then

(ii) regarding pierce - i guess we're on par now.???
(iii) regarding defense - rogues have 30% more armor that last the entire fight, we have 2secs invulnerability on charged shield (provided it doesnt fail) and dmg reduction of 30% that lasts 10 secs. There is now a thread suggesting we make a trade off here.. go support it! on the other hand, shadow veil/razor shield provides 20% armor/dodge buff.. you could drop a offensive skill and pick a defensive one, but I guess you're not willing to make such a trade off.

No im not because rouges Are the dmg class and sorc Are the support class. Also please remember you have fb stun, lightig stun and pets. Stuns from rouge last a millisecond longer than fb, but then there is all the other ways of stun. What does armor even help? Sure youll feel it if there a 1k gap, but there isnt. We cant feel it much anyways. I did have passive armor once, i didnt feel it one bit + gelp amulet 3,5k hp 1,7k armor and still 1 shot by rouges. No one says you have to buff shield first anyways, you can wait till we shallow 2 packs or so. A smurf like Rasi knows how to handle that. Thats a real gf

(iv) regarding stuns - rogues get stuns from charged regular attack and pets. we get stuns from regular attacks, 2 charged skills and pets. there is a 8 sec immunity to stuns already in place to nerf mages overly using stun. We're on par here.

No need to charge lighting to stun

(v) regarding heal - rogues heal allows you to save packs for when you need it, so can throw your pack at beginning of fight and then again at the middle after cd is over. Mages heal is a one time use only.

Mages have a HoT upgrade. Besides it is for support and also heals mana which pretty much goes down in the whole support class yadda yadda. Secondly curse works just as good as a shield IMO.

edit regarding defense - rogues and mages have roughly the same hp.

Needa disagree. Rouge have 3,3k while mages have 3,6k. And most mages will probably run arous with tank HP when they all get arcane weap (pls we all know mage weap will be all ober the place soon) Mini tanks with High dmg, sick DoT, HIGH crit AND 2 sec shield + 30sec armor buff. All classes put together in 1


Rogues have twice the damage output of mages. This was tested against Ferrix and in PVP. Even though the sorcerer in question had 20 more dmg in toon page, my rogue aimed shot did 2x the damage of lightning.

Again we arent the dmg class fir nothing. We also hae passive dmg that is not shown. Mages arent Supposed to have higher crit dmg than rouge. That is not a valid argument

If you have seen my thread about the noticable dmg nerf we feel then speculate avout this


Rouge have no more mana than last season
Rouge gets a dmg nerf.

Warrs have 6k HP. Killing a warr with 800 crit as average. 1-1,5k being rare + 0 mana at all, hows that fair.

Mages have 3,4-3,6k hp + shield + can easily crit up to 2k. Plus consistent crit DoT + continuously damage from lighting fireball.

Rouge will probably end up having to yse mana pets vs mages too. Which will lower our stats abnormaly. 3,3k ho went down to 2,999 HP minus that with 2k crit from light we hae 999HP left leaving us a 1 shot FB.

[Taejo]

A player can now only become invulnerable from the Horn of Renew once every 10 seconds, even if two or more Warriors are casting it.

More of an "overall" PvP balancing fix, but nonetheless proof that the wheels are still turning. Class balance will be modified step-by-step.

[Zeus]

More of an "overall" PvP balancing fix, but nonetheless proof that the wheels are still turning. Class balance will be modified step-by-step.

Now I'm actually not that afraid when there's an all warrior team. :p

[katish]

Critring doesnt necssarily mean high dmg. I crit 0 now and then.
Then I see no problem with sorcerer's crit getting buffed, agreed? :)


Again we arent the dmg class fir nothing. We also hae passive dmg that is not shown. Mages arent Supposed to have higher crit dmg than rouge. That is not a valid argument. No im not because rouges Are the dmg class and sorc Are the support class

Mages are not *just* a support class, unless they choose to be. This is a misleading assumption. Mages could (and should) be a damage class as well, as stated by the devs somewhere. And we all have the passive dmg issue not showing. Anyways our testing showed that rogues have twice the dmg output not only on crits, but regular attacks as well. I'm sure falmear will post the numbers soon.


What does armor even help?
I'd trade my shield for the permanent 30% armor anytime.



No need to charge lighting to stun
This is incorrect, as per the skill description, yes, you have to charge it and you only get a 25% chance to stun. again tho, there is a 7sec stun immunity in place in pvp.


Mages have a HoT upgrade. So do rogues. And rogue's is better, cuz sorceres HOT is for 10 health per 10 secs (as per skill description) while rogues heal around 60-70 health per tick (from my observations with my rogue) for around 5 secs.


Needa disagree. Rouge have 3,3k while mages have 3,6k.
you have to show me this.. as a pure int, full mythic mage I can only take my health up to 3.3k with malison (no buffs from any pets). My rogue's is about 3.2k as a full dex all mythic rogue. These varies a LOT depending upon gear and build.. which is why I stated 'roughly' the same hp.

[katish]

Here are the numbers from lightning & aimed shot comparison. (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out)

And a very interesting analysis from Kalizzaa in the thread too.

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out

[falmear]

[SIZE=4]
Mages have 3,4-3,6k hp + shield + can easily crit up to 2k. Plus consistent crit DoT + continuously damage from lighting fireball.


No mage has 3.4-3.6k without arcane staff. A mage with a mythic gun, full int and full mythics at most has 3166 HP without sacrificing any damage. Where as a rogue has 3192 with full mythics, both using Samael as a pet. So as you can see a rogue has more HP. Plus on top of that a rogue has 1363 armor vs 1022 armor of a mage. So effectively a rogue has 30% more damage reduction over a mage. A mage with arcane staff has 3609 HP. And to backup all my numbers I can provide you screen shots with player names. Can you say the same? You can't compare every rogue to 4 or 5 mages in the game that have an arcane staff and say its not fair.

[Soundlesskill]

Then I see no problem with sorcerer's crit getting buffed, agreed? :)

Did I say that...

Mages are not *just* a support class, unless they choose to be. This is a misleading assumption. Mages could (and should) be a damage class as well, as stated by the devs somewhere. And we all have the passive dmg issue not showing. Anyways our testing showed that rogues have twice the dmg output not only on crits, but regular attacks as well. I'm sure falmear will post the numbers soon.

Do dmg but still not as much as rouges

This is incorrect, as per the skill description, yes, you have to charge it and you only get a 25% chance to stun. again tho, there is a 7sec stun immunity in place in pvp.

On my mage I dont need to charge it

So do rogues. And rogue's is better, cuz sorceres HOT is for 10 health per 10 secs (as per skill description) while rogues heal around 60-70 health per tick (from my observations with my rogue) for around 5 secs.

Never denied this

you have to show me this.. as a pure int, full mythic mage I can only take my health up to 3.3k with malison (no buffs from any pets). My rogue's is about 3.2k as a full dex all mythic rogue. These varies a LOT depending upon gear and build.. which is why I stated 'roughly' the same hp.

2sec adds up for the 100 hp space. 1 aimed shot is maye 1k dmg. So you are shielded vs 1k. We aren't

Falm


No mage has 3.4-3.6k without arcane staff. A mage with a mythic gun, full int and full mythics at most has 3166 HP without sacrificing any damage. Where as a rogue has 3192 with full mythics, both using Samael as a pet. So as you can see a rogue has more HP. Plus on top of that a rogue has 1363 armor vs 1022 armor of a mage. So effectively a rogue has 30% more damage reduction over a mage. A mage with arcane staff has 3609 HP. And to backup all my numbers I can provide you screen shots with player names. Can you say the same? You can't compare every rogue to 4 or 5 mages in the game that have an arcane staff and say its not fair.

Okay so we have the same hp 3,3-3,1k (can always sacrifice for more HP) but like I said 2sec adds up for 1 aimed shot. Time the shield correctly and might see yourself shielded by 2,2k crit. Adds up for the poor 100 hp or whatever you are missing, if you ask me

[Paulsebi]

All....these posts... seeing warriors are op making me sick...

How about a warrior with 6k+ hp and 1.8 k armor can be taken down by two crit hits from rogue? I have maul... I have mythic items upgraded... still taken down so easy....

How about the new update regarding the war heal nerf?

I still don't get why we as warriors are not complaining even we have the crapest kdr ....but still rogues / mages complains over and over...

You better make a warrior... then use it in PVP and I'm 100% sure you guys will stop saying warriors are OP...

Warrios are not tanks anymore..... warriors are just dead meat with the new update.... good job... AL game soon played by mages and rogues due to the STS "love" for warriors....

[Daddyblu]

All....these posts... seeing warriors are op making me sick...

How about a warrior with 6k+ hp and 1.8 k armor can be taken down by two crit hits from rogue? I have maul... I have mythic items upgraded... still taken down so easy....

How about the new update regarding the war heal nerf?

I still don't get why we as warriors are not complaining even we have the crapest kdr ....but still rogues / mages complains over and over...

You better make a warrior... then use it in PVP and I'm 100% sure you guys will stop saying warriors are OP...

Warrios are not tanks anymore..... warriors are just dead meat with the new update.... good job... AL game soon played by mages and rogues due to the STS "love" for warriors....


This new update is all crap! warrior can die less then 3-5 second with rouge critical attach.

I just tried it now. 3 warrior 1 mage 1 rouge team vs 4 rouge 1 mage.

Im a mual user with 5.7k HP 1847 armor and it only take 2 critical shot to kill a warrior. rouge critical shot is what around 2.5k up to 3k.

10 second nerf is ridiculous! its way to long! with out a 2nd warrior heal we all die less than 10 seconds!

[Soundlesskill]

Still 100% agree Paul.

Warrs needs a buff.

[Paulsebi]

Thanks Noisy... and all who see this update a very crap one which doesn't only do PVP more crap for warrior... but destroying PVE also... and making warriors use tons of pots, and same for the rest persons involved in party.

I will wanna see what the other classes will say when they will have in party two warriors.. and one heal... and they die after cause the second heal from the second war doesnt help anymore.

ONCE AGAIN THANKS STS : " AWESOME" update ---> PLEASE KILL MORE WAR CLASS !!!

btw... hope you feel my sarcasm... cause I'm a warrior...

[Zeus]

Thanks Noisy... and all who see this update a very crap one which doesn't only do PVP more crap for warrior... but destroying PVE also... and making warriors use tons of pots, and same for the rest persons involved in party.

I will wanna see what the other classes will say when they will have in party two warriors.. and one heal... and they die after cause the second heal from the second war doesnt help anymore.

ONCE AGAIN THANKS STS : " AWESOME" update ---> PLEASE KILL MORE WAR CLASS !!!

btw... hope you feel my sarcasm... cause I'm a warrior...

You don't think it was a BIT imbalanced that an entire team of warriors was unstoppable? Also, STS has bumped up your damage considerably.

Trust me, I notice it when a L35 entombed hammer starts hitting like a Maul of Ollerus.

There were many situations in the previous update where a 1 warrior & and various other classes team could excel. This update has changed none of that. The only thing that this update has changed is the stacking of shields. I would like to ask...why should warriors get 8 seconds or more of invulnerability when they start stacking warriors? What is right about that? Heck, a team of warriors can take down any opponent in 8 seconds or less!

For individual tanking, this update has changed nothing. All this has changed is the stacking of tanks. Y'all argue that losing the choice to choose teams is a better way, right? However, first of all, there's just far too many situations where that suggestion would not work. Also, that's systems purpose would also be to balance teams, right? Meaning no double tanks? So in this update and the other suggestion people are suggesting, there is no difference as long as a team is not stacking tanks.

[Paulsebi]

You don't think it was a BIT imbalanced that an entire team of warriors was unstoppable? Also, STS has bumped up your damage considerably.

Trust me, I notice it when a L35 entombed hammer starts hitting like a Maul of Ollerus.

There were many situations in the previous update where a 1 warrior & and various other classes team could excel. This update has changed none of that. The only thing that this update has changed is the stacking of shields. I would like to ask...why should warriors get 8 seconds or more of invulnerability when they start stacking warriors? What is right about that? Heck, a team of warriors can take down any opponent in 8 seconds or less!

For individual tanking, this update has changed nothing. All this has changed is the stacking of tanks. Y'all argue that losing the choice to choose teams is a better way, right? However, first of all, there's just far too many situations where that suggestion would not work. Also, that's systems purpose would also be to balance teams, right? Meaning no double tanks? So in this update and the other suggestion people are suggesting, there is no difference as long as a team is not stacking tanks.

Apollo are you playing a war? Do you had the ocasion to test a maul?

I can say you a war with all buff and 612 damage can do a hit when maul proc of a 700- 800 damage? Is this what you speak about? ... I don't see any point in your post...

And entombed hammer of warfare hits almost the same as maul without proc... if this fair?

Test it and then speak about it.....

A 5 warriors team.... I don't even like... but when there are 2 wars now vs a team with one war or no wars... still dead meat...

Also you guys don't realise this affects pve also... if a war with 6k hp and 1.8 k armor can be taken down in two - three hits by a rogue (few seconds) and you think this is fair... can you call me a tank anymore?

About what u said : "Trust me, I notice it when a L35 entombed hammer starts hitting like a Maul of Ollerus." - then where is the point of spending so much gold on arcane weap?..

I still consider STS nerfed very bad the warrior class and seems that rogues / mages doesn't like when we speak cause we were always f...d by sts...and you guys like it...

Good job STS again!

[Daddyblu]

Apollo are you playing a war? Do you had the ocasion to test a maul?

I can say you a war with all buff and 612 damage can do a hit when maul proc of a 700- 800 damage? Is this what you speak about? ... I don't see any point in your post...

And entombed hammer of warfare hits almost the same as maul without proc... if this fair?

Test it and then speak about it.....

A 5 warriors team.... I don't even like... but when there are 2 wars now vs a team with one war or no wars... still dead meat...

Also you guys don't realise this affects pve also... if a war with 6k hp and 1.8 k armor can be taken down in two - three hits by a rogue (few seconds) and you think this is fair... can you call me a tank anymore?

About what u said : "Trust me, I notice it when a L35 entombed hammer starts hitting like a Maul of Ollerus." - then where is the point of spending so much gold on arcane weap?..

I still consider STS nerfed very bad the warrior class and seems that rogues / mages doesn't like when we speak cause we were always f...d by sts...and you guys like it...

Good job STS again!

good point Paul. Rouge can do 2.5 -3k critical on my warrior. and that is half of my current hp.

it means if rouge is lucky he can kill me in two shots.

FYI im a full mythic warrior with arcane hammer.

@Apollo now tell me who is over power?

[iluvataris]

I just have to say this needed to happen, thank you stg.
Maybe 10 seconds is a bit much idk, i will let you guys discuss that.
But 5 warriors should not be able to take any class combination in the game.

Edit: 2 wars will still be great in pvp, just gota spread out a bit maybe don't get the 8 meter upgrade?

[Zeus]

Apollo are you playing a war? Do you had the ocasion to test a maul?

I can say you a war with all buff and 612 damage can do a hit when maul proc of a 700- 800 damage? Is this what you speak about? ... I don't see any point in your post...

And entombed hammer of warfare hits almost the same as maul without proc... if this fair?

Test it and then speak about it.....

A 5 warriors team.... I don't even like... but when there are 2 wars now vs a team with one war or no wars... still dead meat...

Also you guys don't realise this affects pve also... if a war with 6k hp and 1.8 k armor can be taken down in two - three hits by a rogue (few seconds) and you think this is fair... can you call me a tank anymore?

About what u said : "Trust me, I notice it when a L35 entombed hammer starts hitting like a Maul of Ollerus." - then where is the point of spending so much gold on arcane weap?..

I still consider STS nerfed very bad the warrior class and seems that rogues / mages doesn't like when we speak cause we were always f...d by sts...and you guys like it...

Good job STS again!

I have a warrior so I also know where I am coming from.

Perhaps this will get more warriors to use juggernaut and time heals even better!

Also, I KNOW that rogues cannot crit 2.5-3k anymore unless the opponents armor is severely debuffed. Unless you're stacking warriors, this update shouldn't affect you in any way.

[Bullox]

@ Apollo
You are right, we can use Juggernaut..... But for which skill?
Can you tell me Please?

Should we change one of our 2 Damage Skills (with which we can do tons of damage muahaha) with Juggernaut, or should we change with Vengeful Blood?

And can you Please explain me, how we should kill anyone? With one attack skill and autohits?

Aaaah sry i forgot, Warris are Tanks.....Warris should not be able to kill anyone, or?

[Zeus]

A tank that is harder to kill will gain more kills in the end - which will make for a stronger team and KDR.^^

You all say that this update prevents warriors from tanking. However, in reality, does it? There are more tanking skills at ones disposal that help a warrior become extremely hard to kill.

I know many warriors who use both HoR and Juggernaut. They show to be very successful in PvP. I am sure that you're more than intelligent enough to figure out a successful build that keeps you alive so you're able to stay in battle longer to make more kills.

[Paulsebi]

A tank that is harder to kill will gain more kills in the end - which will make for a stronger team and KDR.^^

You all say that this update prevents warriors from tanking. However, in reality, does it? There are more tanking skills at ones disposal that help a warrior become extremely hard to kill.

I know many warriors who use both HoR and Juggernaut. They show to be very successful in PvP. I am sure that you're more than intelligent enough to figure out a successful build that keeps you alive so you're able to stay in battle longer to make more kills.

Apollo ... first question before going deeper... are you playing Arcane Legends and you speak about this game in here?

If you can confirm this.... means.... you didn't pvp since expansion.... rogue can crit 2.5 k for sure....

"A tank that is harder to kill will gain more kills in the end" - lmao u made me laugh with this.... If a "STRONG" warrior like you say pvp one hour and a rogue pvp one hour the kills rogue will get are 5-6 times higher than the warrior .....

I'm crap warrior... but the way this expansion turns in for warrior is just .... s....t

And from both PVP / PVE perspective .... you will find out that this updates turned warrior into a chicken... and I will love the rogues / mages ---- please heal... and hope warrior will say go to STS for heal :) ... also I will love to see warriors hidding behind rogues mages... I was waiting for this day :)

Good job again STS for killing warrior class! I love you more and more by quitting this game!

roger and out...

[Deadroth]

Apollo ... first question before going deeper... are you playing Arcane Legends and you speak about this game in here?

If you can confirm this.... means.... you didn't pvp since expansion.... rogue can crit 2.5 k for sure....

"A tank that is harder to kill will gain more kills in the end" - lmao u made me laugh with this.... If a "STRONG" warrior like you say pvp one hour and a rogue pvp one hour the kills rogue will get are 5-6 times higher than the warrior .....

I'm crap warrior... but the way this expansion turns in for warrior is just .... s....t

And from both PVP / PVE perspective .... you will find out that this updates turned warrior into a chicken... and I will love the rogues / mages ---- please heal... and hope warrior will say go to STS for heal :) ... also I will love to see warriors hidding behind rogues mages... I was waiting for this day :)

Good job again STS for killing warrior class! I love you more and more by quitting this game!

roger and out...

You are most welcome Pauly XD Dev just like to make 'class' balance :D

[Zeus]

Apollo ... first question before going deeper... are you playing Arcane Legends and you speak about this game in here?

If you can confirm this.... means.... you didn't pvp since expansion.... rogue can crit 2.5 k for sure....

"A tank that is harder to kill will gain more kills in the end" - lmao u made me laugh with this.... If a "STRONG" warrior like you say pvp one hour and a rogue pvp one hour the kills rogue will get are 5-6 times higher than the warrior .....

I'm crap warrior... but the way this expansion turns in for warrior is just .... s....t

And from both PVP / PVE perspective .... you will find out that this updates turned warrior into a chicken... and I will love the rogues / mages ---- please heal... and hope warrior will say go to STS for heal :) ... also I will love to see warriors hidding behind rogues mages... I was waiting for this day :)

Good job again STS for killing warrior class! I love you more and more by quitting this game!

roger and out...

1. Yes, I play this game. Also, I do understand how a warrior works. If you're having survivability issues, which you should not have since STG has not touched individual survivability of warriors - just group survivability, you should respec to a build which includes Juggernaut.

2. You are not understanding my English properly, nor are you understanding many people's English properly as demonstrated in other threads where you have completely misunderstood somebody. When I say that a warrior will gain more kills in the end, I mean that a warrior that is harder to kill will eventually have more kills per death than an aggressive spec'd warrior. Sure, the tank warrior will earn fewer kills per hour but that's why there is separate leaders for rogues, sorcerers, and warriors.

3. You're a good warrior...you know how to play. So, what does this update do? Players will learn and eventually realize NOT to stack tanks. They'll realize that stacking classes makes them weaker, so as a result, the overall effect will slowly be more diversified teams when players are picking teams.

4. If there's a way for STG to allow 2 warriors to alternate HoR (but no more than that) then I'm all for it. Why? In the way that CTF is designed, there's no way NOT to have two of a certain class. If the case is that warriors are that, then they should implement code where this effect kicks in only after more than 2 warriors.

5. Yes, a rogue can crit 2.5k+. HOWEVER, like I stated before, that is only possible if the warrior class allows themselves to be debuffed THAT much! And, if you're letting a team debuff your armor that much, you MUST be doing something wrong. A rogue, by itself, will never crit 2.5k+ on a fully geared warrior without some massive debuffs at play.

[Bless]

2-3 hits can kill a maul warrior? LOL thats over the top hyperbole paul. Rogues do 1.3-1.5k crits to a warrior max.

[csyui]

Rogues and mages used to be very grateful to warriors for their generous heal, in either pvp or pve.
But when facing a team with multiple good warriors in pvp, they find themselves get owned easily. Then they argue a lot on the forum.
Ofc a team with five warriors is hard to kill, but that's the fact since pvp first came out. Unless on purpose, what's the odds you fight against such an "unstoppable" team?

For god sake, you guys took away out awesome vengeful blood, and windmill glitch (lol), how dare you come up with an idea to take away the only useful heal.

[katish]

Numbers a rogue crit on charged aimed shot in PVP (taken form Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out) thread)

Charged aim shot crit

1. 1415
2. 1768
3. 1526
4. 2081
5. 2254

So yes rogues can easily crit around 2k on a warrior in PVP. 2-3 crits = warrior dead.

[katish]

2. You are not understanding my English properly, nor are you understanding many people's English properly as demonstrated in other threads where you have completely misunderstood somebody. When I say that a warrior will gain more kills in the end, I mean that a warrior that is harder to kill will eventually have more kills per death than an aggressive spec'd warrior. Sure, the tank warrior will earn fewer kills per hour but that's why there is separate leaders for rogues, sorcerers, and warriors.

That would be true if dead players didn't rush back into the fight.. eventually the warrior's mana runs out and the freshly respawned rogues can finish them off.

I like the crit immunity idea ..

I also like the idea that HoR will only immune the caster and not the whole party in pvp.. I prefer that over the 10 secs immunity

[Zeus]

Numbers a rogue crit on charged aimed shot in PVP (taken form Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out) thread)

Charged aim shot crit

1. 1415
2. 1768
3. 1526
4. 2081
5. 2254

So yes rogues can easily crit around 2k on a warrior in PVP. 2-3 crits = warrior dead.

The rarity of that is so extreme, plus the fact that you're mentioning charging is why. Whenever a rogue charges an aimed shot, it's super strong. However, due to the length of time to charge an aimed shot...a warrior has plenty of time to perform precautions to avoid death.

[Bless]

Numbers a rogue crit on charged aimed shot in PVP (taken form Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out) thread)

Charged aim shot crit

1. 1415
2. 1768
3. 1526
4. 2081
5. 2254

So yes rogues can easily crit around 2k on a warrior in PVP. 2-3 crits = warrior dead. Lol...you dont get it. No mages will ever get crits.

Firstly Aim shot has 2 DEBUFFS so it will do more crit damage after stacks

Secondly, a warrior has 2 heals how can he not survive about 4k dmg in 10 seconds? They will ofcourse heal and buff etc.

[Bullox]

Numbers a rogue crit on charged aimed shot in PVP (taken form Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out) thread)

Charged aim shot crit

1. 1415
2. 1768
3. 1526
4. 2081
5. 2254

So yes rogues can easily crit around 2k on a warrior in PVP. 2-3 crits = warrior dead. Lol...you dont get it. No mages will ever get crits.

Firstly Aim shot has 2 DEBUFFS so it will do more crit damage after stacks

Secondly, a warrior has 2 heals how can he not survive about 4k dmg in 10 seconds? They will ofcourse heal and buff etc.

OMG!!!
Do you only use AS in fights? How about Nox and Piercer???
2k AS + 600 Nox + 1,2k Piercer =? Yep....3,8k this × 2 in about....8 secs =? ..yep 7,6k dmg!!! and thats real dmg because in this statement are no autoshots and no poison dmg from nox!!

And now tell me how to survive that!!!
My Warrior is Legendary equipt with about 5,2k life 1,5k armor.

[Bullox]

@ Miraclebird

Warriors have ONE!!! Heal, they only can buff their health for +500 for a few seconds and thats it!

[Zeus]

@ Miraclebird

Warriors have ONE!!! Heal, they only can buff their health for +500 for a few seconds and thats it!

Have you tried using Juggernaut...? It's truly an exceptional skill...

[csyui]

Have you tried using Juggernaut...? It's truly an exceptional skill...

And it is truly a piece of crap, unless it get buff. :emmersed:

[Bullox]

@ Miraclebird

Warriors have ONE!!! Heal, they only can buff their health for +500 for a few seconds and thats it!

Have you tried using Juggernaut...? It's truly an exceptional skill...

No. I dont like it. With it, i win 20% dmg reduce with 45 sec cooldown and i lose one of my attacks skills.
Thats not my playstyle.
Its frustrating enough to see how low my dmg is, with 2 Attack skills.

Befor i play my Warri with one Attack skill, i delete him and play other class or Game!

[Alfai]

Lmao on-going still??

Grimmy/froh thanks for quoting me.honestly i can go forever bt seeing how this take its turns i personally feel my time to throw thought starters and food for thoughts (not claims/not adamant solutions yet bfote trying to be smart and jumping in with not so smart comments either) should be spent more on something constructive anf helping others.thats just me.if somehow u hv time to read the thread build ups and able to extract the keys that i wrote in the quote paragraph thats appreciated tho not expected.

Lets just say since this is not the only thread tht has made it turns towards intensity.whatever that has been decided by STS on buffing mage n tank recently has ti be accepted with open heart (knowing the demand since back in prev seasons).ive come to an agreement to this.tho it might impact the aversge rogues but other class has to respect and have faith in this change.it is not a huge disadvantage for the pro players out there perhaps but overall its not an impossiblr gap either.but its a clear -1 for rogue.so before u even think of smashing this.be fair and accept that the buffs is accepted and the lacking on rogue is acknowledge if we are talking bout fairness here.i agree that rogues arent supposed to question the update gives superiority on the deserving clasdrs.instead,rogue should focus on the lacking from rogues perspective only.so the trigger might need to be reworded.apologies should i gave a false perception on this either.

Having said that and having to acknowledge a -1 on rogue disadvantage this season its also a fair request to review this update to create that desired balance again.i agree that any solution to buff rogue hp armour or any def enhancement is not a working solution to the problem.the classes cant never be balance but having the gap as small as it can be is possible.hence the request from the rogue community taking into consideration a fairplay aspects (as per bless suggestion which is not selfish and single minded) to relook at mana or skills cd is not supposed to be feared from a constructive and educational standpoint considering the disadvantage again.you wilk never able to have 0 gap but keeping it at an acceptable competitive level,yes.

Hate it but its a fact that rogue is versatile and able to adjust and adapt in various stiuations in both pve and pve.a shallow evaluation would say this is ab overpowering factor.its just the class and its design.asking a rogue to use mana pet is more of bias expression than cobstructive solution.as much advantage on the competitive landscape a rogue is perceived having so does its huge weakness.do not see as killing as the only fueling factor to play.it shouldnt sway too far from the dynamic framework of the game.should killing is your ultimate desire not choosing a rogue asking buffs to make you kill better seems to make u wanna be op by utilizing a class strength and covering its weakness by making the gap even smaller.

I also like lims thought to review rogue medic skill by having an upgrade on mana.a clear disolay of rogue inability to rely on internal abilities with comparison on other classes.whether its an intimidating change or not which i doubt we let sts decide.

I must say that killing its the heart for rpg format.true.all classes has been drsign to complement each other to make better kills.true.having 1class to hustle at killing is not op.true.so think about it bfote you try to quote and ask me the point as for crying for buff in many season and jump when rogue asking to review theirs is an act of refusing fair competition.

Cheers and peace out

[Taejo]

Have you tried using Juggernaut...? It's truly an exceptional skill...

It was exceptional in season 3, and fairly good in 4; but it's starting to become weaker and falling behind the curve as the seasons go by. Outside of PvP, the +500 HP heal from Juggernaut is roughly 9% of the average warrior's total HP pool (5,500). In PvP, however, with the recent heal nerf, I am only receiving +450 HP heals from Juggernaut, roughly an 8% heal. While I'm not inferring that I want Juggernaut's heal to be drastically increased, I feel that for the longevity of the skill in upcoming seasons, it would behoove STG to change the heal to a percentage-based heal, rather than a flat number. Based on the horrendously long cool-down, I think somewhere in the realm of 12-15% would be fair. If not that, then reducing the cool-down by 5 seconds would be greatly appreciated. Also, it's important to note that the upgrade "Second Wind" (if you fall below 25% health, you have a 50% chance of casting a self-heal) has also felt the wrath of this recent heal nerf. I would assume it's also a flat number, although I've tested this in PvP. If it's a percentage-based heal, it needs no attention.

So yes, Juggernaut is a great skill; but now we're in Season 5 with 2 of the 4 upgrades becoming weaker as each season passes, on top of the heal nerf.

[Energizeric]

I did not have time to read this entire thread, but I did read the first page and noticed my name mentioned. Yes, I do agree that PvP was very balanced before this update. For 1-on-1 it was balanced certainly. I saw 2 issues that could have used improvement:

1) I'm pretty sure we can all agree that a group of 3+ warriors on the same team was impossible to beat. They would just keep shielding each other and healing each other. Now that seems to have been taken care of with an update addressing HOR, although as has been suggested, that update needs some fine tuning to allow warriors to apply the shield to themselves when they want to. I think we mostly agree that this is a good solution to that issue.

2) The other issue that I think they were trying to solve is that battles were over too fast at end game. In fact many of you who have PvP twinks have stated that the reason you like twinking instead of end game is that the battles last longer and are not over in 2 seconds. So the obvious way to make battles last longer is to nerf damage from all classes equally, or to strengthen armor from all classes equally. What I'm wondering is why this is seen as a nerf specifically on rogues when it was an equal nerf to all classes??

Anyway, I did some PvP last night, and I could not tell one bit of difference between now and how it was last week. I still had trouble beating warriors, I still had little trouble beating most rogues, and when my shield was in cool down and a rogue attacked me, I was dead after a hit or two. Same result as before all around.

I did however lose to a couple rogues 1-on-1, and the mechanics were the same as before. If I could not manage to finish off the rogue before they got to their med packs, then they would take me down -- same as always.

So what is apparent to me is whatever changes they made, they were very slight and not huge like you all are making them out to be.

[Cero]

I did not have time to read this entire thread, but I did read the first page and noticed my name mentioned. Yes, I do agree that PvP was very balanced before this update. For 1-on-1 it was balanced certainly. I saw 2 issues that could have used improvement:

1) I'm pretty sure we can all agree that a group of 3+ warriors on the same team was impossible to beat. They would just keep shielding each other and healing each other. Now that seems to have been taken care of with an update addressing HOR, although as has been suggested, that update needs some fine tuning to allow warriors to apply the shield to themselves when they want to. I think we mostly agree that this is a good solution to that issue.

2) The other issue that I think they were trying to solve is that battles were over too fast at end game. In fact many of you who have PvP twinks have stated that the reason you like twinking instead of end game is that the battles last longer and are not over in 2 seconds. So the obvious way to make battles last longer is to nerf damage from all classes equally, or to strengthen armor from all classes equally. What I'm wondering is why this is seen as a nerf specifically on rogues when it was an equal nerf to all classes??

Anyway, I did some PvP last night, and I could not tell one bit of difference between now and how it was last week. I still had trouble beating warriors, I still had little trouble beating most rogues, and when my shield was in cool down and a rogue attacked me, I was dead after a hit or two. Same result as before all around.

I did however lose to a couple rogues 1-on-1, and the mechanics were the same as before. If I could not manage to finish off the rogue before they got to their med packs, then they would take me down -- same as always.

So what is apparent to me is whatever changes they made, they were very slight and not huge like you all are making them out to be.

1) i agreed with allowng warriors to shield themselves, its not juggernaut who makes a good tanking. It takes more than that.
2) prolly cos 50%+ of the twinks are warriors thats why they said its taking so long. or maybe the dmg are just too low to make a fast kills.

[Daddyblu]

I have a warrior so I also know where I am coming from.

Perhaps this will get more warriors to use juggernaut and time heals even better!

Also, I KNOW that rogues cannot crit 2.5-3k anymore unless the opponents armor is severely debuffed. Unless you're stacking warriors, this update shouldn't affect you in any way.

@ are you sure? ruthien just did a critical 2.6k on now just now..

I dont know what kind of tank you are lol.. you must have 41 items lol!

[Paulsebi]

I ran pvp since this last upgrade... I played with Addictz which is a great warrior... We tryed to synch like we always did... but if one heals... and the other team has good rogues / mages.... I'm starting to count to 10 to heal myself and the team?.... And looking how the hp goes down and can't do nothing with skills charged?...

Rogues... just think of this... if STS will implement an update allowing you to put packs on the floor and to be able to take them after 10 seconds... how you will feel, how you will react?

This update it's a wrong one... a lot of geared people in pvp these days... and 10 seconds it's damn too long to survey as a tank and take all the hits without using your own skill which is charged....

Apollo, when I say something on forum... I say it based on reality... when you saw me complaining on forum? Never...just this time... because we as warriors didn't complain much... but when we see updates are coming and always nerfing warriors... we can't wait too long... this is too much..

Indeed a post I misunderstood and I have deleted the reply due to this...sorry for that... but again coming back on the subject this is a crap update.

I have tested jugger and indeed was a good skill... till this expansion when it's pointless...

Thats all...

STS, you will notice a lot of warriors either leaving game... or starting playing rogue and mages....so try to correct what you did!

[Uziscata]

OMG!!!
Do you only use AS in fights? How about Nox and Piercer???
2k AS + 600 Nox + 1,2k Piercer =? Yep....3,8k this × 2 in about....8 secs =? ..yep 7,6k dmg!!! and thats real dmg because in this statement are no autoshots and no poison dmg from nox!!

And now tell me how to survive that!!!
My Warrior is Legendary equipt with about 5,2k life 1,5k armor.

Uhm dont know where you get your information from...but when have u ever seen a pierce shot does 1.2k dmg...? very rarely. And It is even rarer for a rogue to do 2k crit on a war. And I have practiced with many warriors.

[Haligali]

@ Apollo
You are right, we can use Juggernaut..... But for which skill?
Can you tell me Please?

Should we change one of our 2 Damage Skills (with which we can do tons of damage muahaha) with Juggernaut, or should we change with Vengeful Blood?

And can you Please explain me, how we should kill anyone? With one attack skill and autohits?

Aaaah sry i forgot, Warris are Tanks.....Warris should not be able to kill anyone, or?

Some mages are using 5-6 skills in pvp and switch between them, depends on situation.

[Bless]

OMG!!!
Do you only use AS in fights? How about Nox and Piercer???
2k AS + 600 Nox + 1,2k Piercer =? Yep....3,8k this × 2 in about....8 secs =? ..yep 7,6k dmg!!! and thats real dmg because in this statement are no autoshots and no poison dmg from nox!!

And now tell me how to survive that!!!
My Warrior is Legendary equipt with about 5,2k life 1,5k armor. A rogue that SPAMS skills in a warrior fight is a truly stupid rogue. Mana would be finished within 10 seconds.


this argument is going nowhere.

Warriors say something
rogues counter
warrior say something
rogues counter

[Bullox]

@ Apollo
You are right, we can use Juggernaut..... But for which skill?
Can you tell me Please?

Should we change one of our 2 Damage Skills (with which we can do tons of damage muahaha) with Juggernaut, or should we change with Vengeful Blood?

And can you Please explain me, how we should kill anyone? With one attack skill and autohits?

Aaaah sry i forgot, Warris are Tanks.....Warris should not be able to kill anyone, or?

Some mages are using 5-6 skills in pvp and switch between them, depends on situation.
Yep me too Haligali...
I have Sky Wind AT VB HoR and I dont wanna leave more Passivs for next Skill i can use in PvP....
Tell me, how much Passivs have a Rogue to leave and how much Skills a Rogue have to use to be a Killer in PvP and PvE....

I think its really time to give Warriors something to be back.....

I'm tired of getting nerfed.... and yes it was time to do something with HoR, but it makes people really angry to always getting nerfed and get nothing for it!

[Uziscata]

I dont think sts know how bad mages stun is.
And i know its different skills and pet stun
But its absolutely ridiculous, I get stuned by a mage then stunned again then stunned again then when i can move im dead
And I have 3.3k health..
So with 3 attacks im dead which must show that obviously mages hit over 1k every single attack.
And even if I am able to get 1 health pack they stun again and then im dead..
It is so lame whats the point of even fighting when im just gona be stunned the whole time
GOood job with mages sts good job

[Frohnatur]

I dont think sts know how bad mages stun is.
And i know its different skills and pet stun
But its absolutely ridiculous, I get stuned by a mage then stunned again then stunned again then when i can move im dead
And I have 3.3k health..
So with 3 attacks im dead which must show that obviously mages hit over 1k every single attack.
And even if I am able to get 1 health pack they stun again and then im dead..
It is so lame whats the point of even fighting when im just gona be stunned the whole time
GOood job with mages sts good job


Could have written the same post.
The balance herein lies in the fact, that pvp is now a more similar experience for all classes. Rogues have a hard time to be nerfed a bit and kind of a cold turkey now about mages beeing able to fight back. You should get used to it. I still see rogues getting plenty of kills, more than the other classes. But now mages and warriors get some substantial numbers too.
Oh... Not me of course, lol. Ping's still killing me hahahahaha.

[Haligali]

Yep me too Haligali...
I have Sky Wind AT VB HoR and I dont wanna leave more Passivs for next Skill i can use in PvP....
Tell me, how much Passivs have a Rogue to leave and how much Skills a Rogue have to use to be a Killer in PvP and PvE....

I think its really time to give Warriors something to be back.....

I'm tired of getting nerfed.... and yes it was time to do something with HoR, but it makes people really angry to always getting nerfed and get nothing for it!

Yes its unfair a bit, some rogues use 5 passives maxed without any subskill unlocked at nox and pierce.