Rhinos charge

[Cheenivie]

In CTF it's gotten kinda bs that a rhino can take a target across the map and charge through everyone else... Don't know if this can be fixed by only being able to target people in let's say a 20m range because 5v5's aren't really fun anymore now that rhinos and foxes can just charge through the map and back..

[Sheugokin]

I agree. In Rockwall, our team must stay in close quarters to not allow rhinos to zoom past us. It can get pretty inconvenient, and plus, most endgame savage rhinos are almost purely str. It is almost impossible to kill them if they have a mage or a bear. Their dodges and health pool is so op, but the damage is crazy low. I believe that the rhino class is only effective in ctf; in DM, most classes can kill a rhino. IDK bro, foxes do the same thing.

[CrimsonTider]

This surprises me coming from someone who plays rhino.

As somone who plays rhino almost exclusively now, if you take away the ability to "jump" then you might as well scrap the class. Rhino's cannot kill anything outside of dex birds, and despite the above post, max health pool is only in the 700's (close to an endgame pally). Also, rhino's aren't the only class which use the "targeting" aspect during CTF. It is a well known, and used, part of the game, especially in the larger maps. I will also point out that a team with a rhino (or fox) is far from being guaranteed victory. The problem lies in the fact people aren't patient enough to strategize against them. Case in point, I played in a 5v5 last night where I was he only rhino on my team and the other team had 2. We won 10-5.

Another falsehood in the targeting myth is it is only helpful while the player you have targeted stays alive. Very seldom does this occur where it is beneficial to stay targeted on one toon for long periods of time.

I find it funny how this class has been around for almost a year and only now are people beginning to complain over the issue, yet do not have a problem when thry have a rhino/fox on their team. As a rhino, it stinks that I only have one charge skill while foxes have two. However, it is what it is. Each class has it's positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses. Again, I remember a PL where people welcomed challenge and didn't beg for changes/nerfing every time something new came around.

[Sheugokin]

Health pool might be the same, but if the rhino is full str, the dodge plus the savage set dodge plus the dodge buff plus the armor buff and armor from the set, it can be quite hard to kill a rhino when it is zooming past. AND then, they have the spell where all debuffs are cleared, and they have heal. And Crim, I didn't want to rant, just not that kind of person. But once a thread is up about it, I am happy to post my opinion.

Well, rhinos can zip past if there is a bear on the other side. All they have to do is charge once targeting the bear, and then the opposing team is not in range to hit. Rhino scores.

[Cheenivie]

If there is a player sitting you just keep your target on him and fly past everyone... So with a 20m target radius a rhino or fox can still escape but would still have to "tank" through a couple players

[CrimsonTider]

Health pool might be the same, but if the rhino is full str, the dodge plus the savage set dodge plus the dodge buff plus the armor buff and armor from the set, it can be quite hard to kill a rhino when it is zooming past. AND then, they have the spell where all debuffs are cleared, and they have heal. And Crim, I didn't want to rant, just not that kind of person. But once a thread is up about it, I am happy to post my opinion.

Well, rhinos can zip past if there is a bear on the other side. All they have to do is charge once targeting the bear, and then the opposing team is not in range to hit. Rhino scores.

Ok... let's use common senese and not make it out to where rhinos get some suoer powers. The buff rhinos get from from Guardian is +40 armor and +10 dodge, and +48 armor from another skill. A mage (in your case, a pally) recieves +55 armor from BoV amd can receive an extra bost with a maxed mana shield (may not be used, but IS an option.) Considering the extra dodge and armor most pallies/mages get from their Elite rings, I would consider this an even push. Now, mages have 5 damage skills which are all considerably higher than a rhino and all have quicker cooldown times with the exception of a rhino's "Charge!". I should also point out that a mage/pally can add 600-800 "health" with tbeir mana shield giving them well over 1000 theoretical health. Add in that a mages heal is stronger than a rhino's and has a quicker cooldown... well, you get the point.


If there is a player sitting you just keep your target on him and fly past everyone... So with a 20m target radius a rhino or fox can still escape but would still have to "tank" through a couple players

You can decrease this distance to 8m and a skilled rhino is still going to escape. Again, very seldom in the last two weeks of playing only rhino have I been in a situation where the opposing team has a player sit.

As I said before, all classes have their strengths and weaknessess, pozitives and negatives. This class is a true tanking class and now we want to inhibit the ability for it to tank? Let's just remove it. Sounds reasonable, right?

[Sheugokin]

Crim I am not arguing the fact that mages cannot kill a rhino, I am just saying the survivability is longer than most. I am well ware that most likely, rhinos will lose a fight to any well set up mage. However, their dodge and armor with charge can easily allow them to zip through. Plus, they have essentially 2 "heals." And Guardian gives an armor boost plus clearing all debuffs. Heal does the same.

[CrimsonTider]

Crim I am not arguing the fact that mages cannot kill a rhino, I am just saying the survivability is longer than most. I am well ware that most likely, rhinos will lose a fight to any well set up mage. However, their dodge and armor with charge can easily allow them to zip through. Plus, they have essentially 2 "heals." And Guardian gives an armor boost plus clearing all debuffs. Heal does the same.

You didn't read my entire post. You are a pally and so I am comparing your argument to your class. If your read what I said, an Elite ring pally has more dodge, the potential for more armor, the same ability to "heal" twice (Heal and Drain), and deals signoficantly more damage
So based solely on the points you continue to bring up, a pally is just as effective, if not more so, than a rhino. The "Charge!" skill is not, and should not, be used an argument for "Op-ness." Please, play as a rhino and get cornered by a bear, there are too many stuns to overcome. Should we then make the argument that bears have too many stun skills (which is 5)? The answer is no.

In regards to your 1v1 point, I am not talking 1v1. I am a team player by nature and prefer CTF/FFA over 1v1 battles. So all of my points/arguments are made in the direction of CTF, which is where Cheen originated this discussion.

It is a lot easier to ask for nerfs on things than to actually take the time to come up with strategy. I will bring this up again: The new tons have been around for almost a year, and this is just now a problem?

[Sheugokin]

Well yeah, crim this is just a problem. How many endgame rhinos play these days? I can think of a few but not that many. I do not play any other level besides endgame, so I see all of the possible new rhinos. IDK, not many people want to play rhino in PvP. Not many in DM too.
How is it more effective? Pallies cannot stun, rhinos can. Pallies cannot zip through the map, rhinos can. With a decent team, a rhino is able to overcome all of the other team's attacks. Plus, IDC about the ring. I am talking about the same build and set to start at an even turf. But now with all of the buffs, rhinos have more defensive aspects to the toon.

[CrimsonTider]

Well yeah, crim this is just a problem. How many endgame rhinos play these days? I can think of a few but not that many. I do not play any other level besides endgame, so I see all of the possible new rhinos. IDK, not many people want to play rhino in PvP. Not many in DM too.
How is it more effective? Pallies cannot stun, rhinos can. Pallies cannot zip through the map, rhinos can. With a decent team, a rhino is able to overcome all of the other team's attacks. Plus, IDC about the ring. I am talking about the same build and set to start at an even turf. But now with all of the buffs, rhinos have more defensive aspects to the toon.

First of all, you can't name a bunch of rhino's at endgame because there aren't a lot. I can name 6 which are regulars. Fact of the matter is, no one wants to play them because they don't kill and people don't get that the point of CTF is to "Capture The Flag."

Second, whether you want to bring it up or not, Elite rings ARE a factor. You cannot discredit them because they area part of the game, plain and simple. What I find funny about this statement is all the threads about toons with Elite rings have a significant advantage, however, rhinos are the exception. This logic doesn't make sense. Shall I post pics of my emdgame mage as a pally and my rhino to show how much more similar they are than you want to admit?

Third, you are upset that a mage cannot stun? So what does both Ice skills do? Freez and stun are essentially the same. I'll say it again, bears have five stun skills with only one way out of a stun (stomp.) Does this make bears OP? I would argue it is unfair to a bear to have to use a critical skill just to be freed from a stun/root/freeze. Again, this logic does not make sense.

It all comes back to "Charge!". However, you keep ignoring the fact that foxes have two of tbis skill. Unfair? No. This is a strength to make up for a foxes weakness. Which takes me back to the "strength and weakness" argument. I can make the argument that a rbino doesn't have the ranged skills of the other classes. Even bears have more ranged skills than a rhino. But a rhino's "Charge!" is still OP?


I am not understanding.

[angeldawn]

I have a headache so maybe I am misinterpreting the post here.

Is someone seriously saying Rhinos are OP??

I'm not even a good Mage (and I'm not an OP pally) and I can kill most Savage Rhinos regularly. (If I'm lucky enough to have green ping)

[Sheugokin]

I losee......Great Explanation

[Cheenivie]

I have a headache so maybe I am misinterpreting the post here.

Is someone seriously saying Rhinos are OP??

I'm not even a good Mage (and I'm not an OP pally) and I can kill most Savage Rhinos regularly. (If I'm lucky enough to have green ping)

I'm not saying they are op I am saying it isn;t really ctf when a rhino can dash through the map without being hit...


I don't want rhinos or foxes to be nerfed never said that I said they shouldn't be able to just charge through everyone the way they do...

[CrimsonTider]

I'm not saying they are op I am saying it isn;t really ctf when a rhino can dash through the map without being hit...


I don't want rhinos or foxes to be nerfed never said that I said they shouldn't be able to just charge through everyone the way they do...


So what is your solution? As long as the "jump" skills exist, there will be jumping. It's a part of the game now and has been for almost a year. There are strategies which work well against them. Otherwise, endgame would be overran with rhinos and foxes. All I see are people frustrated because they don't get 60-100 kills per match. In my opinion, tbose games are too long and very tedious.

[Cheenivie]

So what is your solution? As long as the "jump" skills exist, there will be jumping. It's a part of the game now and has been for almost a year. There are strategies which work well against them. Otherwise, endgame would be overran with rhinos and foxes. All I see are people frustrated because they don't get 60-100 kills per match. In my opinion, tbose games are too long and very tedious.

But a game that lasts 5minutes and has 4-5 kills is better?

[CrimsonTider]

But a game that lasts 5minutes and has 4-5 kills is better?

Most games don't, however, you see the low kill totals becaise the majority of players use Savage sets. A strength bird/mage deals significantly less damage than pure's. I believe the real problem is the overuse of hybrid toons and not enough pure toons found in game. To be honest, when I enter a game and see the other team is full of strength toons, I smile because I know they will have a difficult time stopping me. That is not bragging, that is simply understanding game mechanics. Before rhinos/foxes, the trend the last few caps was to overload a team with pallies and bears. Pure teams could win but it was extremely frustrating and time consuming. Now there are two new classes to counter this amd the strength toons rage. These classes also expose the boosters.

As a bear enthusiast and someone who has always used a bird as my second class, I relish the challenge of stopping a rhino/fox. Even if I lose 5 games in a row, I will continue to work angles and strategies til I find something which works.

However, the real question which has yet to be answered is "Why now?" I recall a conversation with you jst a few days wgo about how much fun using a rhino in CTF is. Amd that has changed now, why?

[gison]

Tl;dr - Rhino charge is the one of the two advantages this class has.

The other one is its awesome health regen.


@ Cheen. The map is called CTF for a reason, capture the flag. TBH, I would rather have a game that lasts 5mins with less than 20 kills compared to a game that lasts 30-40mins with both teams just aiming for kills.

[Duflie]

I don't think rhino skills should be changed. Yes i am being biased because for me, that skill is the only fun skill to use as a rhino. However, I am fine with the devs changing it so that with each skill level increase the range increases because I do agree that with a lvl 1 charge w/12 meters is kind of ridiculous. Keep level 6-9 charge as 12m and it should be fine. I don't pvp but in pve the skill is really helpful and fun to use. It really make for a unique gameplay.

[Cheenivie]

Most games don't, however, you see the low kill totals becaise the majority of players use Savage sets. A strength bird/mage deals significantly less damage than pure's. I believe the real problem is the overuse of hybrid toons and not enough pure toons found in game. To be honest, when I enter a game and see the other team is full of strength toons, I smile because I know they will have a difficult time stopping me. That is not bragging, that is simply understanding game mechanics. Before rhinos/foxes, the trend the last few caps was to overload a team with pallies and bears. Pure teams could win but it was extremely frustrating and time consuming. Now there are two new classes to counter this amd the strength toons rage. These classes also expose the boosters.

As a bear enthusiast and someone who has always used a bird as my second class, I relish the challenge of stopping a rhino/fox. Even if I lose 5 games in a row, I will continue to work angles and strategies til I find something which works.

However, the real question which has yet to be answered is "Why now?" I recall a conversation with you jst a few days wgo about how much fun using a rhino in CTF is. Amd that has changed now, why?

I never said I don't like the rhino class I just said I don't like how they can charge through everyone, when I use my rhino I don't do that of course it's harder but I'm still able to turn a corner and charge away but now a rhino that's in the open can charge twelve meters away turn the corner and he gone and IMO that takes no skill.

[XghostzX]

Those who are only skilled enough and know the tricks/techniques of a rhino will be efficient in CTF - fortunately for you, I can only name a few rhinos. Why? As already stated by Crim, first nature in PvP is that everyone wants to "kill, kill, and kill!" while people hardly want to just CTF.

Truthfully, if I were an inexperienced rhino, I'd be getting creamed and would be useless. But the same goes for a bird, right? For an entire year or so, they were extremely OP. I played my mage a ton during this time, and was constantly frustrated. I took this as an opportunity to become better (who doesn't like challenges)? So, I adjusted.

A point that Crim keeps stating, which I can not emphasize anymore, is that players are too lazy to come up with new strategies against these new classes. Nowadays, we only like it when our own class is OP, and love nerfing other classes. I hardly see any INT mages because, once again, players like to kill kill and kill. I thought mages were a support class? When I CTF with a mage, I focus on reviving and healing my teammates, and then attack when it's appropriate. Figures there are only STR mages with the exception of a few players I know - because players only like to kill! (I found that an INT mage is more useful when played properly in an FFA situation than a pally.)

My point is that players needs to start playing the classes with a more strategic approach, especially in 5v5 CTF games. So what if the other team has a rhino? Learn to adjust, and come up with ways defensively to stop it. When I play soccer, as a defender, my coach always tells me "it's useless to focus on possessing and scoring the ball before you can actually take it from the other team." Rhino's and Foxes have brought a new "offensive" approach to the game. Now perhaps, the other classes can provide a more "defensive" approach to CTF, forcing classes to play their own role.

I remember playing against Dollo and Gladiator in a CTF match with my rhino and some other teammate (forgot who) but there teamwork of bird+bear was incredible. They strategically killed by rhino when appropriate, and took the flag when appropriate. Guess what the results were? They won. So it's not impossible; you just need to adapt and come up with new strategies.

[XghostzX]

Sorry for the double post, but there are a couple things I would like to mention.

Cheen, I assume that when you say Rhino's "charge" through the map, this is because it's in the map "castle-keep-away"? I don't 100% blame you for how you feel, then. There are two paths connecting the flags, giving rhinos more free to space to run though. I think that players need to realize that there are more maps to the game than just this one. Most players hate this map, but I love sandstone forts. It truly forces teamwork play when you're in the opponents flag room (because the spawn room is so close to the flag room).

Also, I've always wanted a better system in PL that would organize the teams; that is, equal out the teams based off of classes. So if you made a game, then players could join either red or blue, but there would be a specific slot open only for your class.

For example, if I create a Rockwall forts match, I could have the option to pick 3 classes for each team. So the game could consist of 2 mages and a fox, or 1 bear 1 bird 1 rhino - endless amounts of combinations. But the point being to equalize the teams based off of class.

[CrimsonTider]

I never said I don't like the rhino class I just said I don't like how they can charge through everyone, when I use my rhino I don't do that of course it's harder but I'm still able to turn a corner and charge away but now a rhino that's in the open can charge twelve meters away turn the corner and he gone and IMO that takes no skill.

Actually, it takes a lot of skill to know when you are free enough to begin charging away. I have messed up plenty of times thinking I was free when actually, I jumped into a chasing opponent and ended up losing the flag. As Will stated, those of us good at being a flag stealer are good because of practice, patience, and game mechanic understanding. I seem to recall this morning having a hard time escaping your bear due to constant stuns. You knew how to stop me because you understand the game mechanics. That is the difference.

However, the conversation stays focused on rhinos when foxes have two charge skills and they can kill. Regardless of the points made, the fact is we will not see a rise in rhino usage because of the lack of killing power. Also, Charge! is the only 12 m skill rhinos have where the other classes have multiple 12 m skills. To nerf charge would (as I said before) destroy the effectiveness of the class. You and others understand how to slow rhinos down. Why should the few of us be punished because the rest of the community is too lazy to figure it out?

[tHelonestud]

It's actually very difficult to do this, I don't think more than the top 2 or 3% of rhinos would be able to slip past a whole team like you said.
They can easily be rooted, frozen, hellscreamed, pulled back, or be stunned from several other skills.
They get one advantage in ctf but have numerous disadvantages in pve and death match fights.

[Cheenivie]

Yes Will I am talking about the Castle keep-away map. You guys are stating good points and I understand your point of view I guess I just get frustrated when this happens..

[XghostzX]

Yes Will I am talking about the Castle keep-away map. You guys are stating good points and I understand your point of view I guess I just get frustrated when this happens..

I understand :) Just as I get frustrated when a bear stuns me against a wall and I can't move a single step, each class has its pros and cons.

[CrimsonTider]

I understand :) Just as I get frustrated when a bear stuns me against a wall and I can't move a single step, each class has its pros and cons.

Cheen and Glad are best at this. -.-

[Cheenivie]

I understand :) Just as I get frustrated when a bear stuns me against a wall and I can't move a single step, each class has its pros and cons.

That's another thing, many players don't know how to defend against these classes :P

[Caiahar]

I kind of figured out a way to counter Crims rhino in CTF, but its very difficult, as I am a 74 bird that probably does tiny dmg with 0 skill. Good bears can also Ultimate stun rhino skthey barely move, Hs beckon sms stomp and watever.

@Cheen: You darn stunner :/

[IGN Storm]

But a game that lasts 5minutes and has 4-5 kills is better?

With the right strategies Rhinos can easily be stopped. Using charge when stunned/frozen/rooted doesnt make you go anywhere. And you could argue that Rhinos can always heal. But thats what a good bear is for. HS, Stomp, Beckon, SMS, and Crip can easily keep a rhino pinned. CB rips through its already relatively low dodge so your Mage/Bird can kill it. Same goes for the foxes who have two leap skills but lack a decent heal.

I didnt read all of the replies so I may have repeated what somepeople ad already said.

Edit: Didnt read page 2, silly me

[Faliziaga]

But a game that lasts 5minutes and has 4-5 kills is better?

When the time ppl wait for a game to start is longer than the game itself and when ppl don't tap on replay after a short game, it can be quite frustrating. Idk for USA timezone , but in my timezone (Europe) it takes time to find ppl and in other brackets there are seldom games when I check. That's why I suggested a (system-based) Pvp Info channel to let ppl know about games being hosted at all levels. So new games could be filled up faster and boredom would be reduced.

[Somenub]

rhinos and foxes dashes an charge are find just have to immobilized them and play defense and team up or cry and lose there fine the way there are