Remove PvP Damage Nerf [Archive]

Kixxler

10-26-2013, 08:01 PM

I know a lot of people have mixed feelings about this, because some people argue it's making fights more skill-based and some people are annoyed because it makes fights really, really long. I'm one of those people that thinks this pvp damage nerf is quite annoying, as it's really just pointlessly prolonging fights. It's also forcing classes to resort to certain builds because damage focused builds simply don't work. I primarily pvp around the 15-35 range and I can personally say that the damage nerf is getting on everyone's nerves. Here are the main problems caused by the damage nerf (in lower levels):

1.) Nobody uses nuke builds anymore. Bears can't nuke for jack and birds are pretty much poop and do virtually nothing. No one uses birds because they are sooooo underpowered, as they rely on nuking/dodging, and cannot debuff or heal. With the pvp nerf they're useless.

2.) Classes with heal become extremely op (mages, rhinos). It's really hard to get mages down to low health, and once we do, *boom* 4-6 heal brings them back to full health. Again, bears, birds, and foxes can't really nuke anymore so characters with high heal are almost impossible to beat. For example, my 26 bear does maybe 70-90 if im lucky with a paw while buffed (most of the time it's 40-60 dmg), and mages can heal 100 easily.

3.) Mage vs mage fights. I mean honestly... I could make dinner 50 times before a mage vs mage fight is finished.

I think STS has been doing an awesome job fixing pvp by nerfing things that need to be nerfed, but the pvp damage nerf is quite unnecessary. I can live with the bird/bear skill nerfs and whatnot, but could you guys please remove the pvp damage nerf? If the majority says not to, then don't, but I personally know a lot of people who don't favor it. Thanks

showoffs

10-26-2013, 08:05 PM

I agree

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GRIZZY

10-26-2013, 08:06 PM

I agree about the nuke problems. True, some classes nukes were a little op but the short high-powered fights were more fun. My custom bird can't kill a glyph sm bear anymore... I have to use all skills including root, combo at least 3 times.. this used to be my favorite lvl

Trenton

10-26-2013, 08:10 PM

I definitely agree, as they should've just lowered the opness of endgame sets, and not done the damage nerf. Low level is completely annoying now, and 50-61 birds and rhinos can't get in enough damage to kill anything.

MightyMicah

10-26-2013, 08:23 PM

At first, when I read the title, I disagreed. However, after thinking about it, I'm somewhat convinced you are right. To be honest, before the nerf, everyone was dealing way too much damage. I don't think that was because of the damage nerf, however. That was because of those ridiculous forgotten bows. Now that those are gone, I would love pvp to go back to how it was, and I believe it would be much more balanced than it is now.

The only argument I can think of to keep this nerf is to say it's a step in the right direction which needs to be followed up by more steps in the right direction. However, I'm not sure this is the case. I will keep my mind open to hearing opinions, though, as I believe everyone (especially the devs) should.

Great post :)

programmed

10-26-2013, 08:23 PM

I don't have any problems with the nerf. IMO rhinos (one of my favorite classes to use) can kill easier and classes take more skill before. I like the longer fights, it was no fun with fights before lasting only a few seconds.

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Extreme

10-26-2013, 08:32 PM

Can't say anything better, I agree.

Zeus

10-26-2013, 08:35 PM

Umm, what I'd like to know is why nerf damage but keep heal growing at the exponential rate it has been? Makes no sense to me.

Heal should be nerfed by 15-30%.

Rot

10-26-2013, 09:11 PM

birds are really underpowered, they cant strike crits, neither can they dodge much
agree

GRIZZY

10-26-2013, 09:12 PM

BIRDZ R BES FEREVER DOE!

(most fun at least)

but it would be much more fun if the damage went back to normal

tHelonestud

10-26-2013, 09:15 PM

they need to nerf specific gear rather than all damage
However, regarding the complaints about long fights, ffa is just as fast paced as always. Maybe they wanted to work on that balance first.

Trenton

10-26-2013, 09:20 PM

@Apollo Yesyesyes because of the lack of damage, there shouldn't be a need to be healed as much, no?

@tHelonestud Yesyesyes exactly what I'm saying, I don't get the relevance to them tweaking all levels when endgame (66+) was pretty much the only op problem.

Heroelite

10-26-2013, 09:23 PM

Exactly right. Most classes have resorted to switching to tankier builds now and this just makes pvp more tedious, and build diversity is really low now. There aren't little to no benefits to the damage nerf just like the orb system, so please STS do the same thing with this and remove.

Caiahar

10-26-2013, 10:04 PM

Yes, low levep mage fights take a long time. Ive tried many builds, the nuke ones didn't work, etc.
Rhinos (other than the 20 ones) already didn't do much dmg before Nerf, after they do way less.
At 51, bear vs rhino fights are endless, and sometimes int mage vs rhino are too.
I really want the dmg to be back, instead of nerfing the dmg, they should Nerf endgame sets and stuff.

IGN Storm

10-26-2013, 10:48 PM

Maybe its because you twink at 26-. But once you play 61+,you'll appreciate the damage nerf.

Pvpandctf

10-26-2013, 11:30 PM

Yea, I agree.
Nobody uses nuke builds anymore. Bears can't nuke for jack and birds are pretty much poop and do virtually nothing. No one uses birds because they are sooooo underpowered, as they rely on nuking/dodging, and cannot debuff or heal. With the pvp nerf they're useless.

Lovingly

10-26-2013, 11:53 PM

Maybe its because you twink at 26-. But once you play 61+,you'll appreciate the damage nerf.

not eveyone pvp at 61+ yo, and its not all about 61+ pvp., the nerf dont bother me ,what ever floats their boat id get along, ...birds l1-35 they dont rly have much chance on their side, i agree

Spyce

10-27-2013, 12:01 AM

I wish STG could bring back the old 10~17 days..

Burningdex

10-27-2013, 12:06 AM

. I mean honestly... I could make dinner 50 times before a mage vs mage fight is finished.

what dinner?

Zeus

10-27-2013, 12:22 AM

Maybe its because you twink at 26-. But once you play 61+,you'll appreciate the damage nerf.

Before damage nerf, PvP was just fine except end games. Now, this damage nerf not only messed up lower levels, but it didn't even fix end game PvP.

So, what do we have left to PvP with on now? I believe you think that the damage nerf is fine considering that you're a lilith mage, which we all know has L61 PvP relatively easy. :)

IGN Storm

10-27-2013, 12:35 AM

Before damage nerf, PvP was just fine except end games. Now, this damage nerf not only messed up lower levels, but it didn't even fix end game PvP.

So, what do we have left to PvP with on now? I believe you think that the damage nerf is fine considering that you're a lilith mage, which we all know has L61 PvP relatively easy. :)

My comment is based on all 56-61 classes mixed in with a 66 mage, 71 bear, and endgame bird+mage. The only thing that needs to be fixed is heal that is relatively op. At least now mages can beat OP bears since beckon stomp sms wont always kill. That means my mage is now on par with BodyGuardz ^_^

Anyways, I agree with Trent that its the individual gear that needs tweaking, not the skills/damage nerf. And if you dont like how low level fights take so long, move up to a level that suits you.

Bears need dodge nerf,-2% dodge isnt a nerf at all.

Birds need a damage boost, possibly from Focus.

TheGodQueen

10-27-2013, 12:50 AM

I totally agree

xcainnblecterx

10-27-2013, 01:01 AM

I pvp 50-55 range and i dont see any damage nurf from being comboed or drained once and dead. Sure i could go pally but then what am i going to kill? I mean as in bears can still get one stomp combo and you're dead. Hard to kite since they dodge 80% of the attacks, so bear fighting.i stay away from. Birds seem on par with mages, can kill quick or be killed quick. Not to mention the other things wrong with mages like fail heals, fail ms, fail drain, etc. I see 51s hitting me twice and im out so no at 50-55 i see no damage nurf . What i do see is other classes still needing balance and i agree certain mage.skills need fixing but i wonder if sts could do the nurfs twink lvl by twink lvl. As it appears twinks are having alot of problems with no damage and im seeing 56+ having other issues.

Kiwihawk

10-27-2013, 01:11 AM

My God....
I'm Sure Nothing That Sts Does Makes Everyone Happy, Just Deal With It...

Heroelite

10-27-2013, 01:22 AM

My God....
I'm Sure Nothing That Sts Does Makes Everyone Happy, Just Deal With It...
I really dislike your reasoning
Don't be afraid of change

Cheenivie

10-27-2013, 01:52 AM

Zeus

10-27-2013, 02:53 AM

My comment is based on all 56-61 classes mixed in with a 66 mage, 71 bear, and endgame bird+mage. The only thing that needs to be fixed is heal that is relatively op. At least now mages can beat OP bears since beckon stomp sms wont always kill. That means my mage is now on par with BodyGuardz ^_^

Anyways, I agree with Trent that its the individual gear that needs tweaking, not the skills/damage nerf. And if you dont like how low level fights take so long, move up to a level that suits you.

Bears need dodge nerf,-2% dodge isnt a nerf at all.

Birds need a damage boost, possibly from Focus.

If you knew how I played, then you would know that I do not beckon stomp & kill. The fact that I can empty a full combo on an average lilith mage 1.5x through & still have them survive is saying something. Yes, that is all 12 skills used in an order that maximizes efficiency.

Zeus

10-27-2013, 03:18 AM

My comment is based on all 56-61 classes mixed in with a 66 mage, 71 bear, and endgame bird+mage. The only thing that needs to be fixed is heal that is relatively op. At least now mages can beat OP bears since beckon stomp sms wont always kill. That means my mage is now on par with BodyGuardz ^_^

Anyways, I agree with Trent that its the individual gear that needs tweaking, not the skills/damage nerf. And if you dont like how low level fights take so long, move up to a level that suits you.

Bears need dodge nerf,-2% dodge isnt a nerf at all.

Birds need a damage boost, possibly from Focus.

Your post is biased considering you mentioned a nerf for bears and birds but the mages seem just fine, which frankly, is funny.

Are things going to be reverted? Let's face it, probably not. However, the fact is that people who are experienced in PvP shouldn't find it struggling to beat average mages.

Also, I have all 3 classes which I equally enjoy in PvP, so I believe I do know what I am talking about. :)

LEVEL ONE

10-27-2013, 05:22 AM

/.../birds l1-35 they dont rly have much chance on their side, i agree

*Ehem* leave level 1 out of this. You've got no idea what you're talking about.

IGN Storm

10-27-2013, 10:25 AM

Your post is biased considering you mentioned a nerf for bears and birds but the mages seem just fine, which frankly, is funny.

Are things going to be reverted? Let's face it, probably not. However, the fact is that people who are experienced in PvP shouldn't find it struggling to beat average mages.

Also, I have all 3 classes which I equally enjoy in PvP, so I believe I do know what I am talking about. :)

I may be biased since Mages are in fact my favorite class. I did mention a nerf in heal though if you read the first paragraph closely. AND I did not suggest a nerf for birds but rather a damage boost since they are quite underpowered.

If you examine the dodge/crit buff nerf, you'll notice that mages are hit the hardest, losing 45 crit at endgame. Bears lost 30 I believe and like 4 dodge. Birds lost 18 crit and 18 dodge.

Yes a bear can use 1.5 of all 12 skills and a mage would not die but a mage can also utilize 1.5 of its skills and a bear would not die. Why should a tanking class kill a nuking class faster?

I believe things might be reverted, after all, Forgo and Orbs were kinda reverted.

Uh... Happy face :)

Multibird

10-27-2013, 10:41 AM

I don't know about any pvp under 60 but here's what I know:

60 pvp - mages op, they can tank bears

66 pvp - again mages are op, angel set is so op that a 76 angel mage can kill fiery mage...

71 pvp - bears are so op, some of these bears can kill endgamers

75-76 pvp (endgame) - bird vs bird is luck, mostly dodge based.
birds vs pallies, pallies mostly win,(pally's) they're the oppest class at endgame

Like apollo said lower heal, and what trenton/thelonestud said lower specific gears such as savage.

Zeus

10-27-2013, 11:12 AM

I may be biased since Mages are in fact my favorite class. I did mention a nerf in heal though if you read the first paragraph closely. AND I did not suggest a nerf for birds but rather a damage boost since they are quite underpowered.

If you examine the dodge/crit buff nerf, you'll notice that mages are hit the hardest, losing 45 crit at endgame. Bears lost 30 I believe and like 4 dodge. Birds lost 18 crit and 18 dodge.

Yes a bear can use 1.5 of all 12 skills and a mage would not die but a mage can also utilize 1.5 of its skills and a bear would not die. Why should a tanking class kill a nuking class faster?

I believe things might be reverted, after all, Forgo and Orbs were kinda reverted.

Uh... Happy face :)

When I say 1.5-2x, I mean 1.5x-2x of the 12 skills. Therfore: 18-24 skills. Don't you think that's A BIT ridiculous, especially if a mage can heal and undo practically everything since their heal pool is growing exponentially larger?

OFWGKTA

10-27-2013, 02:22 PM

I couldn't agree anymore. It's a pain having to use a certain combo a couple times instead of nuking.

angeldawn

10-27-2013, 02:40 PM

Umm, what I'd like to know is why nerf damage but keep heal growing at the exponential rate it has been? Makes no sense to me.

Heal should be nerfed by 15-30%.

First they are taking baby steps. Not gonna nerf everything in one shot.

Nerf heals? Hmmmm

Do many mages actually even max out the heals? Most I talk to don't. So is this really the problem??

Edit:

When I say 1.5-2x, I mean 1.5x-2x of the 12 skills. Therfore: 18-24 skills. Don't you think that's A BIT ridiculous, especially if a mage can heal and undo practically everything since their heal pool is growing exponentially larger?

Do you think a Mage doesn't go though the same amount of skills while fighting a bear to just have the bear still alive?

A Mages heal can't undo the all the stuns a bear can put on them. Mages can be forever stunned during a match.

Also are you purely looking at the heal from a 1v1 viewpoint? What about FFA or CTF with a bear on our team? There is a team aspect to the the heal as well. Bears and Rhinos need Mages to be able to disperse higher health amounts.

Additional note:
Pease when saying Mages don't lump Pallys in with Int Mage. They are a whole different breed

Kixxler

10-27-2013, 08:45 PM

Maybe its because you twink at 26-. But once you play 61+,you'll appreciate the damage nerf.

I have a 66 bear, I don't really think the nerf made 66-71 better at all. Maybe a tiny range of pvp levels and certain classes benefited from the dmg nerf, but for the most part i think it made things unbalanced.

Lovingly

10-28-2013, 05:43 PM

*Ehem* leave level 1 out of this. You've got no idea what you're talking about.

funny that

Zeus

10-28-2013, 06:32 PM

First they are taking baby steps. Not gonna nerf everything in one shot.

Nerf heals? Hmmmm

Do many mages actually even max out the heals? Most I talk to don't. So is this really the problem??

Edit:

Do you think a Mage doesn't go though the same amount of skills while fighting a bear to just have the bear still alive?

A Mages heal can't undo the all the stuns a bear can put on them. Mages can be forever stunned during a match.

Also are you purely looking at the heal from a 1v1 viewpoint? What about FFA or CTF with a bear on our team? There is a team aspect to the the heal as well. Bears and Rhinos need Mages to be able to disperse higher health amounts.

Additional note:
Pease when saying Mages don't lump Pallys in with Int Mage. They are a whole different breed

Sorry, I'm talking about twink levels, Angel.

I thought the balance was to fix end game, correct? However, now, end game is just as broken and now balanced is messed up for a vast amount of twink levels as well.

Sheugokin

10-28-2013, 06:52 PM

I think endgame birds are a underpowered now lol. The dodge I think was fine but the damage/DPS/hit % should really be nerfed. But I do agree with you guys, if anything revoke the nerf and just keep endgame at unbalance and the twink levels balanced. Or even better, balance achieved by nerfing endgame but keeping every other level untouched.

angeldawn

10-29-2013, 12:42 AM

Sorry, I'm talking about twink levels, Angel.

I thought the balance was to fix end game, correct? However, now, end game is just as broken and now balanced is messed up for a vast amount of twink levels as well.

I didn't see where you say heal should be nerfed for twink levels and not end game. Maybe I missed it.

Zeus

10-29-2013, 01:53 AM

I didn't see where you say heal should be nerfed for twink levels and not end game. Maybe I missed it.

The post is in reference to twinks, so logically, it would be about twinks.

Waug

10-29-2013, 02:06 AM

I kept saying since the time devs started to think about rebalance, that Birds are not OP its just overall situation and 2 hit kill etc, are problems nerfing only birds would cause disaster for birds.

I support dodge nerfing of birds but the either they had to strengthen birds in other ways in form of armor etc or nerf other OP factor of other classes. Why they need to nerf the OP factor of bird only whereas there were/are several OP factors of the other classes.

Impact

10-29-2013, 10:22 AM

Birds lost their name

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Impact

10-29-2013, 07:44 PM

I got a 30 warburd who lost to a random bear that had no experience with 30 and a neg kdr, i died from just beckon like 2 slashes and stomp since. I could do any damage or avoid any, PLZ UNNERF BUFFS AND MAKE IT AUTOMATIC WHEN U REACH ENDGAME LVL.

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Itoopeo

10-30-2013, 03:28 PM

Remove the damage nerf!!!

Damage didnt need nerfing, only sets needed it

Heroelite

10-30-2013, 04:03 PM

And where is STG's response to any complaints about the huge change in pvp? Did they just suppose they would make a huge change in the game and leave it as that?

grenadiers

10-30-2013, 05:06 PM

Remove the damage Nerf and fix op bears. I think the truth problem just came from endgame sets being too op. Even after Nerf bears nuke my charmin mage like I'm missing a piece of armor

Caiahar

10-30-2013, 05:26 PM

angeldawn

10-30-2013, 11:59 PM

Funny how ppl who lose want it removed. :)

Also interesting is how so many begged for damage nerf now you all are against if. (I was never for damage nerf)

STS is gonna stop listening to us as a community if all that happened is we flip flop on our decisions (orb, damage nerf)

Rot

10-31-2013, 10:15 AM

Funny how ppl who lose want it removed. :)

what's even funnier is that birds hardly dodge now, how are dex birds going to survive? :)

Heroelite

11-02-2013, 08:00 PM

Was just playing on my 56 bear with fury fighter set. My fingers are in pain from all the tapping. There were 5 instances where we had to call it a draw, because the fights took longer than 10 minutes. I was facing glyph mages and glyph bears and average fight length was 5 minutes. Birds are the only way a fight takes less than a minute... the hp regen and dodge with some of those sets just cause fights to never end due to this damage nerf.....yeah so just saying its not only low levels that are affected.

Zeus

11-02-2013, 09:09 PM

AwesomeTV

11-03-2013, 06:59 PM

Pvp is terrible for lower level bird twinks because bears hit so hard against birds and mages just keep healing this is nonsense they need to go back to old pvp .....

WhoIsThis

11-11-2013, 02:51 AM

Developers made about half the changes they needed to make. As a result, this is what happened.

Pretty much this.

For those calling for nerfs to mage heal - remember that int mages and dex mages need the heal as well. And they are very squishy and underpowered right now. So in other words, heal needs to stay.

Ste mage, bear, and warbird are too powerful right now. I suppose nerfing str endgame will solve the issue for 61+, but for twinking it's another matter entirely. Pretty much bears and str mages right now own endgame. Nuking builds end up 90% dying and maybe 10% winning. That makes them useless in CTF and 1v1.

Plus I have noticed in PvE that more and more people are going str. I suppose with str damage so high, what's incentive to build a nuke class? We need all 3 types viable or the end result will be all str builds and long fights.

The answer would be to nerf the str 75 sets and maybe the Humania one too. But it will not be a fix for twinking.

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MightyMicah

11-11-2013, 09:02 AM

Developers made about half the changes they needed to make. As a result, this is what happened.

Agreed. At this point, I liked things as they were before much better than they are now (aside from fbows.) However, I feel like we are in the in-between phase. If STG continues with more nerfs, I don't think I'll be too upset at all.