Reward as Kills Increase

[Gavry]

I was thinking of a nice little system that would be cool to add to the current drop algorithm to make drops A little more fair.

The plan goes like this:


Internally the engine records each time you get a drop from a given boss.
If it's not a top tier drop you get a point against that boss.
As you kill said boss more times and don't get a good drop your points against that boss increase. 1 point per kill. Maybe no points but no reset for a second tier drop.
Each time you kill said boss you get an increased chance of a better item based on the number of points you have against that boss.
If you get a good drop your points are reset to 0.

The crux is those who kill a given boss a lot of times without getting a good item slowly get a better chance of a better drop each time. Bit more of a reward for perseverance.

[Gavry]

Sorry on iPhone, just realised I wasn't on suggestions board. Though I'd changed. :(

[Arterra]

WANT. I would have like hundreds of points.... more in fact

[Riccits]

If you get a good drop your points are reset to 0.


yeah but what is a "good" drop then? for example in AO3 u coud get a pink like fate or u can get one like cosmos or u get a simple purple..

[Lesrider]

Sounds too complicated.

[Arterra]

yeah but what is a "good" drop then? for example in AO3 u coud get a pink like fate or u can get one like cosmos or u get a simple purple..

there is a clear distinction i think, between the likes of fate vs cosmos, destiny vs rift, etc\
this would allow the item sets to drop.



Sounds too complicated.

that's no answer...

[Gavry]

Sounds too complicated.

There's nothing complicated to it. It would all happen under the covers. All it would mean in essence is that if you persist and kill the overlord 100 times without getting jack you have a much better chance of an epic item dropping for you next run than Someone who is just killing him for the first time.

[Lesrider]

I don't mean I don't like the idea. I just don't think the devs would implement something like this. Seems like too much to track for each character. Considering how limited things like the shop are, this osunds very unlikely to happen. Would probably make lag issues even worse. One extra thing for it to be constantly tracking.

[Gavry]

All the battle mechanics happens server-side already. Logging every kill for every player probably happens already. With a good database under the hood this is trivial.

[Riccits]

i would be open for such an idea... sometimes its really annoing kill and kill bossen and get nothing... ppl who playing a lot should get more good loots!

[Lesrider]

If they do it, great!

I think the lag problems should be fixed first, though. Surprised they weren't fixed in this new update.

[MoarPewPew]

No. I like the idea but no.

Pinks will be so easy to get....
The market will get even worse..

More pinks on the market = lower prices for them.

Also everyone will have the best items...

Replay value will decrease...

I rather farm for hours than get welfare pinks.

[Arterra]

No. I like the idea but no.

Pinks will be so easy to get....
The market will get even worse..

More pinks on the market = lower prices for them.

Also everyone will have the best items...

Replay value will decrease...

I rather farm for hours than get welfare pinks.

I just dont think you get it... think of those people who either dont have all those hours to farm, and every run counts. helps them this does. also, for people who simply DONT get the drops (moi) this will even the board with lucky damn already-rich players.
besides
with the nerf rushed, items should increase in price, so we need a definite way of gathering items for ourselves. you shouldn't necessarily just play for acquiring gold and using it for items, you should be rewarded with the items themselves.

[Snakespeare]

I disagree. Same chance every time is fine with me. Purples and their corresponding pinks need to become more valuable, and not called "crap". Just put some m/s and h/s on those items and people will want them. The space suits are the problem. They are too rare and they are so much more powerful than the purples and other pinks that they devalue everything, and people get a feeling that they are entitled to a space suit. The farmers made more of them available for a fee, and anyone could buy one. Now there will be fewer of them, but people still feel they are entitled to have one.

I think more people will actually have a chance to get a space suit now, because there will be less booting. It won't be five str based characters and boot all the birds and mages anymore. Now the debuffs that birds and mages have are needed. Now they don't have to gold farm and buy their space suits from str based rushers. So more people will have chances.

In swamps did everyone have a witch toad tiara? No. Does everyone have bone armor to use in LE? No. But everyone thinks they are entitled to a space suit. Me, too! I want my wraith armor of the void. If I had the set I would have 32 more points of armor and a ton more m/s. Of course I want it. And so I am playing in level 3.

But the problem is that the players need that much armor to survive the yellow aliens. On the other hand, the yellow aliens are all armor. Debuff them and they wilt.

So I think the purples and "crap" pinks need to be more in line with the sort of protection you get from a space suit.

So it's either that the space suits are overpowered or the others are underpowered, but they need to balance it. Purples should not be liquidation fodder. Purples should be desirable.

An even more radical idea is that then game should not be based on items and acquisition, but one skills and stats, with items giving only some help. Then a character's development means more, and the rush to possess does not take over the game.

So I don't think it is right to further the idea that there are only 3sets of good items in the game. They need to make the other pinks, and the purples, into items that are also appreciated. I just don't think it's right that these 3 sets give so much more protection that everyone feels they must have them or they are being cheated out of what is rightfully theirs.

[Lesrider]

Again, I don't know what teams you were joining, but mine always tried to have a balance of bears, birds and mages. After all, you get the most combos that way. And birds are needed against keeper and Ol or they're pretty much undefeatable. It's usually helpful to have a mage/pally for healing and rev (especially with Gurg). So we always looked for a balanced team. So I don't know what you're talking about all bear teams. I think now it'll need less teamwork because the bosses are easier and the main concern will just be clearing mobs as soon as possible.

[Snakespeare]

Lesrider, one or two games a day that allowed strength birds and paladins constitutes an exception. Most rush farming was being done by bears. Every day we had two or three posts complaining about being booted and it was level 50 dex birds and pure int mages who were the victims of this bullying. Those people are now wanted. I know this. I played last night. People were not being booted. Heck, just getting them to stay after a few deaths was hard enough.

But to the OP, the real problem is the imbalance between the space suit gear versus all the other pinks and the purples. Correct that imbalance and the feeling of entitlement will settle down.

[Lesrider]

It wasn't the exception for our teams, that's what I'm saying. It's really just a matter of finding the right people to play with who want to do it the same way as you. If you're not yet ready for a more advanced team, find others who you can practice with and before you know it you'll have a team of likeminded people.
And many people get booted because either the spot was full, or we needed a specific class (lacking one of them) or they've proved several times that they're not very helpful to the team. So maybe that's why you got booted and not simply because of your class alone.

[Snakespeare]

I guess my experience has been different from yours. All I saw was farming teams of str bears and booted birds and mages. I NEVER saw games where people actually played, only bears farming and booting. We would spend all day on the boards trying to create teams that actually play the maps in succession, only to have them fall apart after a few deaths.

This is not a discussion about how you would always farm in a locked map and you did invite a pally once in a while because you needed someone to rez. I am not personally criticizing how you played your locked games. I am talking about what really happened most of the time, and that was birds and mages got the boot.

But please, we need to address the original post.

The OP wants a system to ensure that people who take out the bosses more get better chances for a space suit. I am saying, less booting, more people playing levels equals more chances for anyone to get a space suit. Besides, people should not feel entitled to a space suit. Further, the "crap" pinks and purps are considered trash because the space suits throw off the game balance. And finally this game is too gear-based. If it were more based on stats and skills, people wouldn't be incited to greed.

Those four points keep getting ignored when you keep insisting that your locked games were fair. The truth is, birds and mages were not welcome in 99% of the farming games. Every day we were inundated with complaints here about being booted even though people were level 50. And the real reason was, those were farmers who were being bullies. That problem is solved. I have not seen a single complaint about being booted in the last two days. And you watch, there won't be many all week. That is simply because the bears now need our debuffs. And that is why I am happy with this nerf! :)

[Barbamitsos]

I was thinking of a nice little system that would be cool to add to the current drop algorithm to make drops A little more fair.

The plan goes like this:


Internally the engine records each time you get a drop from a given boss.
If it's not a top tier drop you get a point against that boss.
As you kill said boss more times and don't get a good drop your points against that boss increase. 1 point per kill. Maybe no points but no reset for a second tier drop.
Each time you kill said boss you get an increased chance of a better item based on the number of points you have against that boss.
If you get a good drop your points are reset to 0.

The crux is those who kill a given boss a lot of times without getting a good item slowly get a better chance of a better drop each time. Bit more of a reward for perseverance.

one more cool idea ;)

[MurdocX]

I like the idea but it's far too late. The game is too far in to go back source code and add a whole new algorithm that may or may not even run correctly. Algoritm's are tricky and take a long time to get perfected, if people thought 1.5 took long, this would take probably half a year if not longer.

Also, I do feel that a system like this is FAIR but to be honest in life and games nothing is fair. I appreciate the fact that's it's by random and all though I hate it sometimes, I think it's best to keep it at random. Items would no longer have any rarity, what strives people to get the new items at the launch of a new expedition is the randomness. You keep doing runs with high hopes of getting a good drop but if you know that if you do enough runs eventually your garentee'd a rare drop, then there goes lack of motivation for anyone to buy items aside from the lazy players. :3

[Snakespeare]

Yeah, you can get a Dreamer's Darkbolt Staff to drop from Brom Dandy or Zyla Doom. You just gotta keep doing it. Nobody ever expects it. It would be crazy to feel you are entitled to it. But, at level 50, somehow, everyone thinks they are entitled to a space suit. I think expectations should be lowered.

[Gavry]

I like the idea but it's far too late. The game is too far in to go back source code and add a whole new algorithm that may or may not even run correctly. Algoritm's are tricky and take a long time to get perfected, if people thought 1.5 took long, this would take probably half a year if not longer.

Also, I do feel that a system like this is FAIR but to be honest in life and games nothing is fair. I appreciate the fact that's it's by random and all though I hate it sometimes, I think it's best to keep it at random. Items would no longer have any rarity, what strives people to get the new items at the launch of a new expedition is the randomness. You keep doing runs with high hopes of getting a good drop but if you know that if you do enough runs eventually your garentee'd a rare drop, then there goes lack of motivation for anyone to buy items aside from the lazy players. :3

Are you serious? As an IT developer, experienced coder, and someone who has actually written a MUD, text based MMO, before I have to say your wrong. If the Devs wanted to add this it would take less than 3 days of work to plan, implement and test. The only thing that would take time is tweaking the algorithm to get the drop rates perfect.

To Snakes point. This idea doesn't have to mean only Rift, Cosmos and Void gear is counted. It could be extended to be something like this:

2 points against the boss if you don't get an item below purple.
1 point if you get a purple
0 points for tier 2 to 3 pinks.
Points reset on tier one.

The boss points would improve your drop chance each time meaning if you killed a boss 50 times your chances of getting a purp over green or pink over purp are slightly better. I don't see it as farm 50 times and Wraith armour WILL drop. It's just that persistence is rewarded with slightly better drop rates.

[Snakespeare]

I do kinda like the idea, and there is already a luck potion so there is a variable in there somewhere already that can be added to the percentile roll... and you are talking about earning things, not being entitled. I might change my opinion. What the heck... :)

[MurdocX]

Are you serious? As an IT developer, experienced coder, and someone who has actually written a MUD, text based MMO, before I have to say your wrong. If the Devs wanted to add this it would take less than 3 days of work to plan, implement and test. The only thing that would take time is tweaking the algorithm to get the drop rates perfect.

To Snakes point. This idea doesn't have to mean only Rift, Cosmos and Void gear is counted. It could be extended to be something like this:

2 points against the boss if you don't get an item below purple.
1 point if you get a purple
0 points for tier 2 to 3 pinks.
Points reset on tier one.

The boss points would improve your drop chance each time meaning if you killed a boss 50 times your chances of getting a purp over green or pink over purp are slightly better. I don't see it as farm 50 times and Wraith armour WILL drop. It's just that persistence is rewarded with slightly better drop rates.

In my original post and I quote, "to be perfected". Last I checked no experienced development team want's a buggy drop rate algorithm on a game that's already running smoothly.

Please read more carefully next time and don't assume things in a condescending manner. To be quite honest I'm not even sure you took everything into consideration. The drop rates are fine as they are and having the Developers bother to look and spend the time to re-write an algorithm would seem silly to them. Why bother trying to fix something that is fine as it is? The shop system was a big "must have" for the community a while back, it was promised to come in future patches and we are just now barely getting it. It would be like suggesting the Developers to revamp the already functioning engine for the game (props to them for actually making it from scratch), when in reality there is no point to fixing something that is fine to begin with.

I never once said that the algorithm it self was a task that takes 6 months to write. I'm sorry if you felt I implied something but the internet is the internet you can't assume implications through mere text.

Keep realism in mind. You're definitely not the only techie on these forums either.

[Gavry]

Skeleton Algorithm

Allocate loot {
For 1 to players {
better drop % = (bosspoints / 2) + pot bonus
lootroll = randomnumber(0 to bossloottablesize) + better drop %
lootroll = min (lootroll, bossloottablesize - 1)
loot = orderedbossloot[lootroll]
if loot <= green then bosspoints += 2
else if loot == purp then bosspoints += 1
else if loot == best then bosspoints = 0
}
}

Job done

[MurdocX]

Skeleton Algorithm

Allocate loot {
For 1 to players {
better drop % = (bosspoints / 2) + pot bonus
lootroll = randomnumber(0 to bossloottablesize) + better drop %
lootroll = min (lootroll, bossloottablesize - 1)
loot = orderedbossloot[lootroll]
if loot <= green then bosspoints += 2
else if loot == purp then bosspoints += 1
else if loot == best then bosspoints = 0
}
}

Job done

The problem with the 9th line is that "best" would be pink. Currently the game doesn't recognize items as best, better, or worse. It would be pink and in which case pinks arn't always the "good items" you were talking about.

I still have a chance at getting a pink version of a Hi-Tech Blaster of Celerity over getting a Pink Mega Blaster of Void.

In all actuality I never said I didn't like your idea I just said I prefer the randomness. I guess having a +5% better drop rate from 5 boss drops of white would be not as drastic as I thought you were taking it. I was just pointing out the realism of the situation .:3

EDIT**

I forgot that somewhere in the algorithm there is probably a bracket for rare drops over common drops. In which case "Best" could probably be used for rare drops. Oopsy.

[[Lt] Shiny]

well i think Gavry's idea is very reasonable and fair. cuz that way, if u kill the boss, then u get better loot than the other people who just helped or did nothing.

[MurdocX]

Shiny Buttom;120328']well i think Gavry's idea is very reasonable and fair. cuz that way, if u kill the boss, then u get better loot than the other people who just helped or did nothing.

It doesn't work that way. The way the games set up, someone can join your game and sit behind you guys the whole time and what ever drop's he got would or wouldn't still add to the boss points.

What your referring to is a different thing entirely Mr.ShinyBuzzom. :P

[[Lt] Shiny]

oh.......... lol, kk 4 clearing that up 4 me... *sniff* dont make fun of my name (or username... same same) =D

[Arterra]

It doesn't work that way. The way the games set up, someone can join your game and sit behind you guys the whole time and what ever drop's he got would or wouldn't still add to the boss points.

we have always had the problem. so boot them.
if like in a non bootable map, well at least it is boss/map specific. the best items are not in the passageways anyway.

[Pharcyde]

I like everything but...... Other bosses would be abandoned and bosses with better drops would be farmed like no other.

Heres how it would work fairly. Instead of a check against the boss itself it would be a total compilation of your kills and drops. Based on your drops would determine your "natural luck". Which varies based on your kills/drops. Heck lets say your luck drops a small amount every time you die. This gives people incentive to actually focus and do their part in dungeons. This also gives people reasons to form parties with tactic instead of like 5 mages or birds.

[Gavry]

I like everything but...... Other bosses would be abandoned and bosses with better drops would be farmed like no other.

Heres how it would work fairly. Instead of a check against the boss itself it would be a total compilation of your kills and drops. Based on your drops would determine your "natural luck". Which varies based on your kills/drops. Heck lets say your luck drops a small amount every time you die. This gives people incentive to actually focus and do their part in dungeons. This also gives people reasons to form parties with tactic instead of like 5 mages or birds.

Nice concept. I think we have the start of a good idea building here.

[Pharcyde]

Nice concept. I think we have the start of a good idea building here.

Yeah this is a really good idea. Also say you need at least 1000 kills before your even allowed a pink drop. This will greatly decrease leachers. Today alone I had 4 leachers who were under 100 kills and were lvl's 10-30?

[kurl]

sounds like pvp system in runescape GET SOME ORIGINALIY GUYS!

[Pharcyde]

PvP system is for PvP.... Not Boss farming?...

The boss system in runescape is totally different than this. The system there prevents you from getting 2 great drops in a row, when in a party if you get a really good item you might as well leave the party because your luck just went down the drain. Also it prevents people from getting great drops in one try. Because nothing makes people more mad than some person trying godwars for the first time and getting a godsword shard and the guy farming it for weeks gets zip.

[Gavry]

sounds like pvp system in runescape GET SOME ORIGINALIY GUYS!

Never played Runescape. Anyway, if an idea is good why not build on it?

Hey I've designed a new car. It has square wheels because I didn't want to be called unoriginal. Rofl

[TwinkTastical]

sounds like pvp system in runescape GET SOME ORIGINALIY GUYS!

IKR...

I just got a clip for my next vid!

Downed 3 hybrids in lv 48-50 wildy, all on one load, at same time in mult :D

Go Rendimento ^.^

Edit: the runescape idea sucks, now if this were 2001-2005 itd own.