Game mechanics and equipment, a thread to reform PL and re-establish class balance

[WhoIsThis]

Purpose of this thread
This is a thread that proposes a complete re-balance of Pocket Legends game mechanics, particularly towards end game, (although it's likely that twinkers too will find this useful).

It's goals are to:
1. Get PvP balance for all sets, Str, int, and dex.
2. Make all classes competitive. Some classes will have advantages and disadvantages over others, but none will be totally dominant.
3. In PvE, create an environment where all classes have a useful role to play.
4. Make the classes closer to what they were according to the official lore.

And perhaps most of all,
5. To be THE definitive guide to balancing to present to the devs as a community.


This thread will be divided into subsections (there's a 5000 character limit to PMs, so just in case, I'm not going to exceed that). There will be several parts dealing with equipment, skills, and spec mechanics.


Background Information
In 2011, I created a thread that I felt (and to some extent still do) was the ideal (for all classes PvP balance (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?42435-Towards-the-perfect-equipment-a-commentary-and-observations-from-the-past)). In other words, a relatively well balanced PvP set. Since then, a few things have happened - the introduction of 2 new classes (of which I have to admit, I do not have as much experience working with), and the fact that the main hardcore base has largely left PL (or in some cases have been banned).

The other issue has been that with the introduction of each new level, we have seen the percentage stats go closer and closer to 100%. Particularly for dodge, this has become a huge issue. Buffs too were more and more potent, but corrected somewhat with the latest nerf. Somewhat. It has led to the following:

1. In PvP, dodge has made the game pure luck-based (and to some extent it still is). Imagine a pure int mage and a str based character fighting. Even after the nerf, we still have the following. Most of the time, the main attacks from the mage will be dodged. The end result is that that the mage will die. Occasionally, the attacks hit and the str character is dead. Not much they could have done. This has been somewhat, but only somewhat rectified by the nerfs implemented recently.

This can also be an issue when tanking in PvE. Under certain circumstances, the str based character will be effectively one-hit when their dodge does not "work".

Essentially, we have created an environment where well, skill is no longer relevant. Knowing when to hit the right skill is no longer an issue (assuming an elixir free environment; with elixirs, there's no point in skill as well because each toon is super-buffed). Instead it's all about the random number generator and whether each shot is a hit or a miss.


2. Also, unique to dodge, as we approach 100%, str type characters become effectively invincible, forcing dex and int based characters to respec purely to re-spec to stay competitive at all. This is true in both PvP and PvE (when nobody is using elixirs - with elixirs of course, well it's all moot). With each new content addition, that becomes progressively a bigger problem because historically each new tier adds equipment that percentage wise is more potent than the last.

In PvP, because of what I wrote in part 1, you'd be totally at the mercy of the RNG if you did not go str, and you'd be totally



3. Buffs and debuffs became more potent. That's a problem because well, the difference between buffed and unbuffed becomes so big that well, an unbuffed toon stands zero chance in PvP.

In PvE this is also an issue. It's an issue because well, a party without elixirs (and without a competent tank - I especially stress the competent part, since there's a lot of scatter bears these days) will be forced to only advance with buffs on. This was partially addressed with the latest nerf.

However, the same cannot be said for debuffs, which are inconsistent these days. If they miss, they miss, but if they hit, they are very potent.


4. It takes a really long time in many tiers for str vs str based fights to conclude. Why? With high dodge and high armor, along with reduced damaged output from going str, it takes a while for someone to get the lucky kill. Plus, you get other issues like when the kill finally occurring, it's more of a luck-based than a skill based.


5. It has led to a de-skilling. There's now a large generation of players that attribute their successes (mostly due to luck) to superior ability when the RNG favors them and go "luck!" when it does not.



The goal of my thread will be to address all of these, 1 by 1.

[WhoIsThis]

Mechanics Change Proposal
Background Information
If there's nothing else that changes, I think this is the one mechanic that is the most critical that needs to be changed.

To begin with, we now have several issues that were not present when 50, 56, 61, and 66 were the level cap - very high dodge. 66 was perhaps the last close to being balanced (all of the levels had their respective flaws). Dex was somewhat underpowered, but str and int were roughly evenly matched with a skilled player being able to win on either end.

66 also introduced some interesting things:
1. Greater than 100% crit (also present in dex mages as early as 56) for int mages
2. Dodge greater than 70% for the first time

These would set the precedent for the future of Pocket Legends, especially in PvP, but also affecting PvE. (Note of course that at the time, we only had 3 classes - the 2 new classes have changed things up a bit). So - now we have high dodge, and high crit. What to do? High crit in and of itself is not a problem (certainly dex mages, int mages, and dex birds are very powerful at certain tiers, but they can be countered as well), but high dodge is the issue. So what to do?

Well, to begin with, we want to both give incentives for have high dodge and crit, yet at the same time have good game balance. That's hard to do, but I have a proposal.


For crit
Suppose we have 110% crit when buffed. We damage the enemy. Our base attack does 100 damage.

Right now, we get:
100 damage x 2 (since we have a 100% chance to crit) = 200 damage

Proposed changes
I propose that where crit exceeds 100% (and only where crit exceeds 100%), we multiply the current crit damage by the current crit percentage of the score.

100 damage x 2 (since we have a 100% chance to crit) x (1.1 (from the crit chance) x n) = 220 damage, assuming n = 1

This would give an incentive for a player to stack crit on their toon after 100% crit, which currently does nothing.



For dodge
Let's put dodge caps on the different characters.

Suppose I do 500 damage. Suppose the target has an 80% chance to dodge (an str-based tank can get this) and 300 armor.

Right now:
The target would have an 80% chance to dodge, meaning I do no damage. If the shot hits, then the target has takes 200 damage (500 - 300).

Proposed changes:
I propose implementing dodge caps. Let's make a maximum buffed dodge cap of 67% (so 2 in 3 shots can be dodge maximum)%. So why stack dodge? Well, let's say that you have a buffed dodge that gives you 80% like in the example? What would be your armor?

300 armor x (1 + (80% - 67%))
= 300 armor x (1.13 x n)
= 339 armor


So now my 100 damage attack would have a 67% chance to miss, but it hits, it will do 500 - 339 or 161 damage, assuming n was 1.

This is an effective nerf to dodge. Yet at the same time it provides a usefulness to dodge. The goal is several things:

1. To make dex and int classes viable again
2. To allow for faster endings in str vs str combats. Right now if you have a fight between 2 str based characters, it tends to drag on and on.




Note the "N"
I deliberately put an N down for balancing purposes. If we made n = 1.2 then it would mean that

Crit damage
100 x 2 x (1.1 x 1.2) = 264

Armor on target
300 armor x (1.13 x 1.2)
= 406.8 armor


I think that we will need to play around with these "n" values to get the perfect balance, but it may very well turn out that n = 1 is the optimal value. I suspect that this may be the case.


Concluding Remarks
I said that if any reform is to be made, this one is perhaps the most critical. I very much stand by that. I feel that ensuring that fights do not drag on, that ensuring that PvP fights are concluded in a timely manner and that in PvE, that it's not purely RNG keeping the tanks alive.

The 67% may have to be changed as well - it was an arbitrary call. I came to the conclusion that 67% buffed was a good target to aim for because well, in the 66 days (before Angel), str and int were relatively well balanced and the highest dodge achievable at the time was 67%, which is roughly 2 out of 3 shots being dodged. I suspect though that 67% is the best compromise.

I believe that it may take a bit of fine tuning to find the optimal "n" value to achieve a good balance between the classes, but I think that in the end, it will be well worth the trouble.

[WhoIsThis]

Equipment Changes
Note that this is currently a draft.

Let me ask you a question, what would make a perfect set for each type - str, dex, and int? Well, let me define perfect. Perfect would mean:

1. Useful in a group of 5 in a PvE environment
2. Relatively well balance in the context of PvP combat
3. Has a role to play in a CTF game
4. Conforms to the "lore" of the game


Well, what do we have? Essentially we have
1. Str based tank sets (used by all classes)
2. Dex based single target sets (used by all classes)
3. Int based AOE damage sets (used mainly by int mages)

Within those classes, we have sub types, one hand and two hand, and melee vs ranged.


Current situation
Well, looking at the pure classes, we'd have:
Str - sword and shield (the sword and shield are used for tanking mostly)
Dex - bow and crossbow (used by all classes, esp dex bird and dex ranger, for which the daggers don't do as much skill damage)
Int - wand and bracer or staff (used mostly by mages - I think like the 2h swords, staffs need a buff in damage output)

The big issue that I think everyone cares about the most is the equipment used most. The str shield/sword, the dex crossbow, the dex bow, the int staff, and the int wand/bracer.

From a damage standpoint, the str 2 handed swords, the dex wing/talon, and the daggers (and dual daggers) are not widely used. I will discuss in another thread what I feel could make these useful, but right now I would like to focus on the ones above. Skill damage you see is not as heavily based upon the base damage of the weapon, but rather the amount of int/dex/str that your toon has.









Int
Right now, int mages have it hard. They simply do not have enough to justify the losses in survivability over a str mage. Their counterparts, the str mage are very potent, but int is simply not good enough to justify the massive losses in survivability.





Fiery Dragon Master Armor
Stats: 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 27 Damage, 83 Armor

Fiery Dragon Master Helmet
Stats: 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 27 Damage, 48 Armor


But it's the staff that's seriously underpowered right now:
Fiery Dragon Master Staff
Stats: 230-253 Damage, 1.1 Speed, 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 13 Armor

In exchange for Wand + Bracer
Fiery Dragon Master Scepter
Stats: 162-192 Damage, 1.0 Speed, 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 11 Armor
Fiery Dragon Master Eye
Stats: 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 27 Damage, 71 Armor

which gives
Stats: 162-192 Damage, 1.0 Speed, 84 Int, 12% Hit, 24% Crit, 10 H/s, 12 Mana, 12 M/s, 82 Armor

So that means that in exchange for a staff, you lose
42 int, 6% hit, 12% crit, 5h/s, 6 mana, 6m/s, 69 armor and gain a paltry ~65 ish damage (weapons damage will be less than that because staffs are slower and heal will be weaker on the staff than wand/bracer because heal is just a function of int and rank)
Considering you lose 12% crit, you are not doing any more damage effectively with the staff. The staff will do about 10-15% more base damage, but it's all lost in the lower crit. Essentially with the staff you're losing something and getting nothing!



What's wrong with this set?
Well, int mage is performing very poorly right now in PvP and arguably in PvE as well (absent of elixirs, it dies too easily). It's not a viable build absent of elixirs.

4 changes are needed (5 for staff):
- A buff to M/S (buff it from 6 M/S to 10 M/S, and give the staff 20 M/S to offset the lack of a bracer); this is because when the mana shield is gone, the int mage is helpless
- A bit more crit (propose changing it from 12% to 16%; and to give the staff 32% (16+16% so that it has the same crit as wand+bracer))
- Increase armor to same as str pieces
- Increase damage by 10%
- Give the int mage a bit of dodge (say 2-3% per piece)

For the staff, I propose doubling the int that the staff has and giving it from 230-253 weapons damage to say, 260-300 ish. This in turn will upgrade the weapons damage.



What would a good pure int mage set have?
Well, let's think about this for a moment:
- Very high crit when buffed (both wand/bracer and staff should give >100% crit buffed)
- Very high mana regen (need >40M/S, ideally regenerating every 0.25s, so 10M/0.25s)
- Armor should be comparable to str based set

Decent:
- A bit of hit (current 5% is fine for Fiery Dragon for when the mage is debuffed)
- 2nd highest weapons damage in the game (wand is fine right now, staff though is not)
- H/S is there, but not as high as str sets (currently fine)

Weaknesses:
- No dodge (only dodge comes from other vanity bonuses and stats)




Expected Results
Int mage is essentially a glass cannon. It needs enough "cannon" to do a lot of damage (high crit + high base damage when buffed), but at the same time, it needs just enough "glass armor" so to speak to actually survive. My goal is to give the staff int mage 25% less armor than the wand/bracer combo, but in return for 25% more skill damage (ex: if a fire blast does 100 damage on a wand/bracer, the staff will give on average 125 damage). It has a lot of mana regen (to help keep the mana shield up). It also has the best AOE damage in the game.




Recommendations for future sets
I think that in the future, there isn't much room for change for int mages from this deviation. Anything else and they pretty much become ineffective.

- Do not decrease the mana regeneration
- Make sure that the staff is viable
- In future sets, buff the armor, damage, int, crit, and H/S to be in line with str and dex sets, but do not change anything else



















Dex

Dex is currently doing acceptably well as bird versus int, but is a poor choice right now for fighting strength. I think that seeing that int was buffed, maybe dex needs a buff too.

But it's not the gear that is the issue for birds, they need their dodge back.


At the moment, here are the stats:
Swift Dragon Master Armor
Stats: 42 Dex, 12% Hit, 9% Crit, 4 H/s, 3 Mana, 5 M/s, 28 Damage, 81 Armor

Swift Dragon Master Helmet
Stats: 42 Dex, 12% Hit, 9% Crit, 4 H/s, 3 Mana, 5 M/s, 28 Damage, 60 Armor

Bow of the Phoenix
Stats: 263-303 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 42 Dex, 1% Dodge, 9% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 2 Mana, 5 M/s, 32 Armor



What's wrong with this set?
I propose giving the dex set some dodge. Say, 3% worth of dodge per piece of crafted 75 gear and bumping up the dodge on the Bow of the Phoenix to 5%. This is a net increase of 10% dodge.



Proposals for current tier
Give all of the level 75 crafted equipment 2% more crit.
Give the same armor as strength pieces
Double the amount of dex per piece.

Net: More armor, increased damage, and slightly increased crit (8% for wing and talon, 6% for bow).

This is to keep it in line with int.


The Perfect Dex Set
Strengths
- Highest crit of any set in game (same amount of crit as custom before would be ideal)
- Highest weapons damage in game (which dex builds have always had and always will)
- Highest hit% of the game

Average
- A bit of dodge for good measure (not too much as this would unbalance the game)
- Moderate amount of mana regen (somewhere between custom and the glyph 60 sets would be ideal); I think most dex players would trade more damage for mana. Birds have meditate, bears don't need a lot of mana, and mages, as I will explain below, won't be too adversely affected.


Weaknesses:
- Lowest armor of the game
- Lowest H/S of the game (in other words, low armor + low H/S - dex relies on it's dodge for survivability)



Expected Results
Pure dex birds are like pure int mages in that they are somewhat like glass cannons, but they've got more dodge for their survivability. In return, they've got focus on one target. Weaker AOE, but more focused on single target damage.

- Birds should retain their position as damage king for single target
- Dex bear will be a more viable build and should not have to use any mana potions whatsoever
- Dex mage will not be too harmed. There will be an adjustment period for dex mages. However, I notice that in the 55 days, the preferred dex mage set, the raid roach auto bow had low mana regen and yet dex mages were still so powerful than there were several threads on the forums (and complaints in game) that dex mages were OP.
- Vixen should be fine as well, although some of their skills are melee oriented, which is a bit of an issue

- Birds will have to either use a bit more mana potions or put some points in meditation. Dex mages in PvE will need to use more mana potions.

- For PvE, health potions will have to be used liberally by dex birds and dex bears, with a moderate amount by dex mages (whose heal is weaker than int mages).



In other words, nothing needs to be changed right now for the dex set. I would however recommend nerfing the dodge on the Angel dex set.



Recommendations for future dex sets
Options for future dex sets include giving the dex set a bit more crit, or to lower the crit and give more dodge. Otherwise, I think the dex set is ok, although I am proposing a few buffs below that may change things up a bit.

Wing and talon I think are also fine right now.











Str
Str

The strength level 66 set was pretty solid. It represented a huge step forward over the fury and fortified predecessors. I think that one of the flaws of the Angel and latter was that it had too much dodge, leading to a luck-based PvP system. Str was reasonably well balanced in 56 (Fortified), 61 (Strongman) and 66 (Orlok), but not so much now.

Right now the str 1h sword does way too much damage. Str mages, warbirds, and bears are extremely hard to kill and CTF is simply untenable, especially when facing lots of str mages.



Savage Dragon Master Armor
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 90 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Helmet
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 67 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Scythe
Stats: 234-254 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 19 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Buckler
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 79 Armor


What's wrong with this set?
Right now the savage has 234-254 damage. That is way too much for a str set. It overshadows the other classes. In the 66 days, str bear and str mage could support well and do well in 1v1, but rarely killed in group combat. Why would you choose to go dex or int when well, the str gives almost as much damage for MUCH more survivability? No reason.

Proposals:
Remove all crit on level 75 strength gear, except for the 76 2H sword, the Smoldering Boulder
Reduce dodge by 3% per piece, increase hit by 3% per piece.
Reduce damage by about 10%.
Remove the stun proc

This will ensure that the strength set becomes tanking oriented.


2H Changes
Shield/sword are doing fine right now. But, in case you haven't noticed, there aren't very many people with the 2h sword running around. Why?
Savage Dragon Master Blade
Stats: 260-334 Damage, 1.3 Speed, 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 19 Armor

So I lose 42 Str, 7% dodge, 5% Crit, 22 Damage, and 79 Armor, in exchange for about 40 more damage (on average). That just isn't good enough. Like staffs, 2h swords need a buff to be viable.


What to do about the 2H sword so that people will use it? (And remember to make the same changes for the level 76 2h sword too).

- Double the Str like in the staff and buff the damage from 260-334 Damage to 280-340
- Give this sword 20% crit

It's a similar tradeoff that staff mages have. About 25% less armor for about 25% more damage.





The perfect str set
Strengths
- Highest armor of any set in the game (although will be on par with int after proposals)
- Highest dodge of any set in the game (not too high for balance purposes - I proposed a dodge cap above for a reason)
- Highest health regen of any set in the game (recall my post on H/S mages ... by contrast, H/S is very useful on a str build).
- Perhaps a health reserve from set bonus like the one fortified had (optional for game balance purposes)

Average
- Moderate amount of hit % (not too high though for game balance)
- Moderate amount of M/S (to help pallies out)

Weaknesses
- Lowest weapons damage of the game
- Lowest skill damage of the game
- No critical hit


The 1h set needs a damage nerf at the moment, but the 2h str set is seriously underpowered.





Expected Results
This is the tanking set. In PvE, this is going to be the tank. It is a set that emphasizes survivability above all else. It's not a dps set.

This set should serve tanking bears, warbirds, rhinos, and perhaps tanking rangers well. They don't need much mana regen, but since pallies do, I gave this set a moderate amount of mana regen. Note that in CTF, this set is a flag capture oriented build. You probably will not get 1 to 1 K/D ratio against good players, but that's not your job. Your job is the flag person.

As indicated, I want the strength set to also be given a choice. You can choose to have lower survivability in exchange for better damage. Why is this important? Let's say 2 bears are in a run. Well, that usually doesn't end well. We have 2 bears competing for beckon and stomp. A scatterbear nightmare for classes like mage that need their targets in a fixed radius. The better solution is 2 have 1 bear in front beckon into the targets and stomp them into a wall, and then the 2nd bear not beckon, but only use stomp when the other bear beckons (to take advantage of smash). But that second bear's damage is going to be impaired as is their freedom of action. Hence, a powerful 2h sword to the rescue (alternatively the bear can go dex).




Recommendations
There are really 2 types of strength sets:

- Dodge based: High dodge, but lower armor and H/S
- Armor based: Low dodge, but very high armor and H/S

I think that alternating between the 2 each tier will "spice" things up a bit. Fortified set from the sewers was an example of an armor based set. Most of the other sets are "hybrid" sets, in other words, sets that are in between the 2 extremes.






Other Changes
Angel Sets and Humania Str
They need a slight nerf to their dodge, say 3% less dodge per piece. The int angel set though could go for a bit more damage, say 2-3% more crit to compensate for the loss. The Humania Str sets could also use a dodge nerf.

This will ensure that there is better PvP balance.

I think that this should solve the PvP balance issues. I don't think that this will lead to str being seriously underpowered (in fact it may even need further nerfs). That said, I am open to changes (feedback welcome below).





Conclusions


Remarks

Gear is always a difficult thing to balance. I know this because well, I've had (limited) experience designing my own mods (in other games). I think that what STS needs to do in the future is to:

1. Don't deviate from the recommendations shown here without community feedback
2. Ask the community for feedback by showing the stats 1 month before new levels come out
3. Ask the community for feedback several weeks after (when many of the top players are "elite" level and have had some time to evaluate)


Even with these recommendations, I do not expect perfect results off the bat. Note that I only made 2 changes - buffing the int sets, and buffing the 2h str and int weapons. I think that this, with the ability changes below should be enough to balance PvP and be consistent with PvE. The individual numbers may need a bit of change, but I think that fundamentally, this will lead to a better balanced game.

Remember, our goals are:
1. Useful in a group of 5 in a PvE environment
2. Relatively well balance in the context of PvP combat
3. Has a role to play in a CTF game
4. Conforms to the "lore" of the game



Certainly, some classes will be stronger than others (there may be a rock-paper-scissors relationship between some classes/builds), but on the whole, the goal is to ensure that no class is too potent in PvP, and that each class can contribute when played well in PvE.

[WhoIsThis]

Skill Discussion
The Issues
Max buffs and debuffs per toon


Ok, let's discuss skills. The are several issues right now:
1. Debuffs are not working well
2. Buffs are somewhat overpotent (addressed with the latest nerf)
3. Skill points lead to uniform builds and diminishing returns at endgame

Debuffs
At the moment, we have a system where debuffs can miss because they are dodged. This is very critical for countering dodge. This is one of the reasons why a fight between two strength characters becomes very lengthy. Why? Let's say we have 2 str-based toons fighting each other. Both have 80% dodge. They both have a 30% dodge debuff ability. Now that means that 4 out of 5 shots will miss - including the debuffs. This makes the fight go on and on.

Proposals
Debuffs cannot be dodged. Witness the example above. What would happen if one of the debuffs hit their target? Well, instead of 4 out of 5 shots missing, you now have 1 out of 2 shots - a huge advantage. But it's a luck based advantage at the mercy of the RNG, and with a statistical chance of hitting only 1 out of 5 times, you've got issues. Hence, str vs str fights are really long.

Solution? Make debuffs always hit.

But in return, we cap debuffs at 6 levels per debuff, just like 6 levels per buff (which was done). I also propose that all debuff effects be capped at 5% for all classes per level (for uniform balance).

Also, we have only 5% per debuff level. Debuffs will be uniform per class. For example, let's have a debuff that debuffs say, damage output and hit %.

Levels:
1. -5% dps, -5% hit
2. -10% dps, -10% hit
3. -15% dps, -15% hit
4. -20% dps, -20% hit
5. -25% dps, -25% hit
6. -30% dps, -30% hit

Since it always hits, the effect is always going to debuff. Hence, our 2 targets fighting, assuming they have dodge debuffs in their str vs str match would both debuff each other to 50% dodge, helping end str vs str fights more quickly.

One other thing to keep in mind. Only the effect is undodgeable. For example, if a bird has blinding shot, only the debuff effect is a 100% chance to hit. If that bird shot at a target with say, 80% dodge, the damage from blinding shot would have an 80% chance to miss.

Finally, note that I used "-30% dps" not "-30 dps" as is present. This was done on purpose. I propose that all debuffs become a percentage. The reason? This will ensure better balance across twinks and will be more scalable in future tiers.

So in other words, buffs always hit, but are capped at 6, but in exchange they always hit. The damage is unaffected.

Hit Debuff Proposal
I propose changing the hit debuff so that it's now:

Debuffed value = Base hit of target x (1 - debuff)

For example, if a target has 90% hit and I have a 30% debuff, this makes it:

Debuffed value = 90 x (1 - 0.3) = 63%


Buff proposals
I am for the most part satisfied with the "6 level" maximum buff changes. However, I do feel that there is one change that needs to be made. The percentage buff.

Proposed change:
Say, Blessings of Might from Mages
Levels:
1. +10% crit, +5% damage; self, +1% str, +1% armor party
2. +20% crit, +10% damage; self, +2% str, +2% armor party
3. +30% crit, +15% damage; self, +3% str, +3% armor party
4. +40% crit, +20% damage; self, +4% str, +4% armor party
5. +50% crit, +25% damage; self, +5% str, +5% armor party
6. +60% crit, +30% damage; self, +6% str, +6% armor party

Note that the buffs are all percentages. This makes it a bit more scalable for all buffs. I propose that all buffs be changed to percentage values. I suspect that the base damage may have to be nerfed from +5% damage; self to maybe +3% damage as well (so at 6 levels, you get +18% damage).



Skill point issues
I propose that skill points be re-allocated as follows (these are for damaging skills only):

1. Unlocks skill
2. +5% damage (or heal) to this skill
3. +10% damage (or heal) to this skill
4. +15% damage (or heal) to this skill
5. +20% damage (or heal) to this skill
6. +25% damage (or heal) to this skill
7. +30% damage (or heal) to this skill
8. +35% damage (or heal) to this skill
9. +40% damage (or heal) to this skill
10. +45% damage (or heal) to this skill
11. +50% damage (or heal) to this skill

At the moment I recommend 11 levels per skill.


Things to discuss - seeing that there's only 6 levels allowed per debuff and buff, perhaps the damaging skills should be capped at 10?

The reason why I want to do this?

1. Scalability - +5 damage per level is a big deal in low level twinks. Not so much in endgame, where well ... everyone's build is alike.
2. It forces players to make compromises and choices on what their preferred build is. This is especially true in twinking.
3. Not everyone will have the same build.

A further benefit I suppose may be for STS - it will be a small source of plat sales.

A while ago, people were complaining that at endgame, well, everyone's build was the same. This attempts to rectify that. Builds now matter. You have to make choices. You have to make compromises (like in real life). There may be different builds too for different situations that are optimal.



Dual purpose skills
I propose for skills that serve a dual purpose like break armor that the effect of break armor be capped at 6 levels for the armor debuff, but investing more points will cause the break armor ability to do more damage still by 5% per point invested. Note that break armor debuffs a percentage now rather than before (say 5%).



Other changes
I do feel that there are a few other issues that need to be addressed.

The first 2 will likely be controversial (and I'm open to the communities opinion on them).

1. Beckon in PvE should have a 100% chance to hit in both PvP and PvE. This is because a pure str bear does not have 100% hit. Same with the pally charge ability - 100% chance to hit in PvE. Why? Beckon is crucially important, because for pure str bears, they do not always beckon in PvE and without beckon always hitting, you cannot tank effectively. This is especially important for bears and pallies because with dodge somewhat nerfed, they need to be able to close the distance or ranged classes will just kite them and mow them down. Similar arguments could be made for pallies. Under some situations for pallies, being able to "charge" (ex: if a dex bird, fox, or int mage has aggro) a boss may also be very useful and it's especially useful in PvP.

2. All of the roots and snares (ex: thorn root, thorn wall for birds, and the freezing abilities for mages) should have a perfect chance to hit as well in both PvE and PvP. Why all the hits? They set up for combos. For example, beckon + stomp is the bear combo. Freeze + Fire blast is the mage combo. Finally, when 2 str characters are fighting, let's say a bear vs a pally. If the pally is losing and wants to back off so that they can regenerate (str sets have high h/s), then well, the bear can beckon them over and they cannot dodge. If the bear backs off, well, charge! This again helps end str vs str fights more rapidly.

3. Heal on mages right now does not cure the debuff from blinding shot. I believe that heal should group heal every debuff in the game, along with removing the DOT effects of the rangers. For pallies, guardian should have similar effects, although only for the pally. This is critical now that debuffs never miss. This shouldn't be too controversial.

4. For bosses in PvE, even though they are not freezable, if a mage hits a target immune to being frozen, for the next 2 seconds, if they cast "fire blast", it will trigger the "hot flash" combo. This is because mages can't do hot flash on bosses and certain monsters (ex: the Catacombs in the Sewers, the green slimes). By contrast, birds can use Cruel Blast and Bears can Smash any target in PvE and PvP.








Concluding remarks
I think that this is what needs to be done for skills. I think that this will lead to balance, that it will lead to all classes having a role, and that it will lead to a more enjoyable experience all around.

It is scalable with new levels, it is standardized across classes so that no class has an unfair advantage, and should solve the long str vs str fights that are dependent on RNG.


There will be the following:

Each skill has 11 levels.
Buffs and debuffs each have 6 levels.


We will see:
1. There will be a lot of threads on build optimizing now because there will be compromises in each build
2. Not everyone will have the same build
3. Skills will scale more evenly with each level

[XghostzX]

This is exactly what the devs need. Clear and cut information that goes straight to the point with viable solutions. Excellent job, man.

[WhoIsThis]

Skill Change Proposals
At the moment, each point in each skill gives the following:



Current Situation
Adding strength (str emphasizes survivability, at the expense of damage)
- Each str point gives you 0.02 dmg per hit, so you need 50 points of str for 1 extra dmg
- Each str point gives you 0.03 crit, so you need 33.33 (recurring number) points of str for 1% extra crit
- Each str point gives you 0.025 dodge, you you need 40 points of str for 1% more dodge
- Each str point gives you 0.02 H/S, so you need 50 points of str for 1 H/S more
- Each str point gives you 0.05 armor, so you need 20 points of str for 1 armour more (this one is unverified)
- Str points also increase your hp reserves. Every 2 points of str increases your hp by 1, rounded down.

Adding dex (dex emphasizes maximum weapons damage at the expense of survivability and mana)
- Each dex point gives you 0.15 dmg per hit, so you need 6.67 points of dex for 1 extra dmg
- Each dex point gets you 0.167% hit, so you need 6 dex for 1% more hit
- Each dex point gets you 0.032 crit, so you need 31.25 points of dex for 1% more crit
- Each dex point gets you 0.0125 dodge, so you need 80 points of dex for 1% extra dodge
- Each dex point gives you 0.01 H/S, so you need 100 points of dex for 1 H/S more
- Each dex point gives you 0.025 armor, so you need 40 points of dex for 1 armour more

Adding int (int is like a compromise between everything)
- Each int point gives you 0.08 dmg per hit, so you need 12.5 points of int for 1 extra dmg
- Each int point gets you 0.1% hit, so you need 10 int for 1% more hit
- Each int point gets you 0.02 crit, so you need 50 points of int for 1% more crit
- Each int point gets you 0.005 dodge, so you need 200 points of int for 1% extra dodge
- Each int point gets you 0.005 h/s, so you need 200 points of int for 1 h/s more
- Each int point gets you 0.02 m/s, so you need 50 points of int for 1 m/s more
- This one is not yet confirmed, but every 2 points of int increases your mana reserve by about 1 (the game seems to have some oddities with rounding)


Proposals
I motion for the following to be changed:

Strength
- Each str point gives you 0.03 crit, so you need 33.33 (recurring number) points of str for 1% extra crit
- Each str point gives you 0.025 dodge, you you need 40 points of str for 1% more dodge

I propose that this be changed with instead
- Each str point gives you 0.1 armor, so you need 10 points of str for 1 armour more

Dex
- Each dex point gets you 0.032 crit, so you need 31.25 points of dex for 1% more crit
- Each dex point gets you 0.0125 dodge, so you need 80 points of dex for 1% extra dodge

I propose that this be changed to:
- Dex points also increase your hp reserves. Every 2 points of dex increases your hp by 1, rounded down.

Int
- Each int point gets you 0.02 crit, so you need 50 points of int for 1% more crit
- Each int point gets you 0.005 dodge, so you need 200 points of int for 1% extra dodge

I propose that this be changed to:
- Int points also increase your hp reserves. Every 2 points of int increases your hp by 1, rounded down.



So after my proposed changes, the skills add
- Each str point gives you 0.02 dmg per hit, so you need 50 points of str for 1 extra dmg
- Each str point gives you 0.02 H/S, so you need 50 points of str for 1 H/S more
- Each str point gives you 0.1 armor, so you need 10 points of str for 1 armour more
- Str points also increase your hp reserves. Every 2 points of str increases your hp by 1, rounded down.

Adding dex (dex emphasizes maximum weapons damage at the expense of survivability and mana)
- Each dex point gives you 0.15 dmg per hit, so you need 6.67 points of dex for 1 extra dmg
- Each dex point gets you 0.167% hit, so you need 6 dex for 1% more hit
- Each dex point gives you 0.01 H/S, so you need 100 points of dex for 1 H/S more
- Each dex point gives you 0.025 armor, so you need 40 points of dex for 1 armour more
- Dex points also increase your hp reserves. Every 2 points of dex increases your hp by 1, rounded down.

Adding int (int is like a compromise between everything)
- Each int point gives you 0.08 dmg per hit, so you need 12.5 points of int for 1 extra dmg
- Each int point gets you 0.1% hit, so you need 10 int for 1% more hit
- Each int point gets you 0.005 h/s, so you need 200 points of int for 1 h/s more
- Each int point gets you 0.02 m/s, so you need 50 points of int for 1 m/s more
- This one is not yet confirmed, but every 2 points of int increases your mana reserve by about 1 (the game seems to have some oddities with rounding)
- Int points also increase your hp reserves. Every 2 points of int increases your hp by 1, rounded down.


Why?
The point of this is to first, give a bit more health to the different classes, and to make strength a bit more of a "pure damage" oriented class.

The other issue is that I took away crit and dodge. Under my proposed changes, this would be needed since crit and dodge now are useful beyond the cap, so it's best to make sure that it's provided purely as a result of equipment. This leaves room for future cap increases and makes it easier to balance the classes.

[WhoIsThis]

Conclusions
To be completed later

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Amazing read, as always. When I get bored of the forums I find one of your great reads and get a drink. Now I only hope all of this fantastic work doesn't go to waste. Devs, seriously take a look at this. This is what can resurrect pl from the dead. This guy. And his amazing ideas. Only read the first 2 sections. I'll read the rest on the bus tomorrow.

[Oldcoot]

Great job, good read, just hope it's not to late.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Nvm, I read it all. Too interesting to stop. Haha

[Pvpandctf]

Oh devs read this thread please.

Awes!

[Extreme]

After I read through the middle, I can't stop this is actually what I wanted this game to be, As Always GJ!

[jiu]

excellent

[MightyMicah]

Exactly what we need! I just read everything carefully from top to bottom. Can't wait for it to be finished! I really hope the devs read this and apply it. I'd love to see a dev "thank" one of these posts just so we know they got the message.

Edit: You the man, Sam! :)

[Roberto077]

Good old 61 cap. Oh how I miss you.

[SakuraSenbonKageyoshi]

#ThisForDev2013

[Cheenivie]

Mod thanks the thread but will anything be done?...


To be continued

[XghostzX]

Mod thanks the thread but will anything be done?...


To be continued

Dun dun dunnn.....

[Sheugokin]

I totally agree with that proposal! Hopefully, STG will take this advice into serious consideration. I feel like they are ignoring us! :(

[Kingzila]

Simple thing for Pve (don't fix something that's not broken)

[Reunegade]

Simple thing for Pve (don't fix something that's not broken)
PvE is broken, alright. Nowadays a person cannot run a map at endgame without using an elixir. And if they attempt to do so, they get booted promptly because it slows down their runs. Simply put, the mobs are too hard, and there needs to be an increase in health, rather than dodge.

[Promagin]

This... Is the most brilliant thing I've read on these forums in a LONG time. Very amazing job, I hope the devs take this serious and implement it in, Thank you very much for doing this ^_^

[MightyMicah]

Simple thing for Pve (don't fix something that's not broken)

I agree. Oh snap, it's broken! What do we do? Oh hey, check it out! There's a whole thread about how to fix it! How convenient is that? ;)

[Waug]

I agree with the most part but int mage DMG is already sky high Drain and fire I meant. int mages do more DMG (with shield and 1 h weapon) than the highest damaging (meant to be at least) class bird with 2h bow (I.e with no sheild).

what we need - skill damage distribution among other skills similarly bears are about beacon stomp. skill DMG should be distributed in other skills so there would be less 2hit kills. players have to go through his/her most of the skills tactically to kill opponent.

biggest mistake made by devs- Percentage based stats should have been treated separately e.g hit%, dodge, crit. these stats either started to got saturated or either got saturated if I had to explain it then I needed to write 1page article, I'm not gonna do that.

also) Debuffs skills should not get dodged even though the DMG may get dodged for ex if someone dodge brk armor he only dodged the DMG but did not dodge the break armor proc it happens but there are many other debuffs that get dodged with its procs also.

other than that as op always mention 2h gear and 1h gears are not balanced and 2h gear always have advantage over 1h weapon gear in general.

[WhoIsThis]

I agree with the most part but int mage DMG is already sky high Drain and fire I meant. int mages do more DMG (with shield and 1 h weapon) than the highest damaging (meant to be at least) class bird with 2h bow (I.e with no sheild).

Two issues though:
In PvP, that damage is not very effective. It is not very useful because your target has really high dodge. Hence the scenario above. Target has 80% dodge. That means that to get drain life to hit, it will be dodged 80% of the time.

In PvE, the damage is still not very effective. It is not very useful because well, PvE is very elixir centric. Furthermore, without an elixir you will be picking up a ton of aggro. This compounds the issue for staff mages because they only get 9% more damage for 25% less survivability. At least with my suggestions, you'd get 25% more firepower for 25% less survivability. A fair tradeoff, and one useful provided you have a good tank.






what we need - skill damage distribution among other skills similarly bears are about beacon stomp. skill DMG should be distributed in other skills so there would be less 2hit kills. players have to go through his/her most of the skills tactically to kill opponent.


I'm forced to disagree here too. With the current situation, 2 hit kills are not the issue at all. High dodge is the issue. Str vs str fights go on and on.

Judging by your responses, I suspect that you are very much focused on either end game with elixir PvE or a twinking, as int mages currently while they do a lot of damage, their damage tends to get dodged a lot.




biggest mistake made by devs- Percentage based stats should have been treated separately e.g hit%, dodge, crit. these stats either started to got saturated or either got saturated if I had to explain it then I needed to write 1page article, I'm not gonna do that.

also) Debuffs skills should not get dodged even though the DMG may get dodged for ex if someone dodge brk armor he only dodged the DMG but did not dodge the break armor proc it happens but there are many other debuffs that get dodged with its procs also.

other than that as op always mention 2h gear and 1h gears are not balanced and 2h gear always have advantage over 1h weapon gear in general.


I agree with these points here though and that's what I plan to talk about.

[Xyzther]

Another idea for dodge would be this:

Lets say you have 80% dodge
And your opponent has 200% hit

So 20% of attacks to you would hit, but let's multiply the 20% by 200% so 40% hit


60% dodge 150% hit would be 60% hit
50% dodge 140% hit would be 70% hit
40% dodge 130% hit would be 78% hit
70% dodge 200% hit would be 60% hit

Etc....

Sorry if it's hard to understand it's hard for me to explain it

[WhoIsThis]

Another idea for dodge would be this:

Lets say you have 80% dodge
And your opponent has 200% hit

So 20% of attacks to you would hit, but let's multiply the 20% by 200% so 40% hit


60% dodge 150% hit would be 60% hit
50% dodge 140% hit would be 70% hit
40% dodge 130% hit would be 78% hit
70% dodge 200% hit would be 60% hit

Etc....

Sorry if it's hard to understand it's hard for me to explain it

It's an interesting idea. I must disagree with it though:

It would make dex birds very, very powerful against str based toons. Their accuracy would be greatly improved versus str based enemies.

At the same time, the idea would not address the other issue, lengthy str vs str battles. Finally, it would not address the other issue, int being not very effective right now.

To everyone:
I do realize that everyone has ideas on what to do. I actually encourage everyone to post them. I may not always agree with all of the ideas, but at least people are thinking.

[Kixxler]

Dam thats some hardcore gamer evaluation right there.

[WhoIsThis]

I have completed my thoughts on skill reforms that I propose.

It should be scalable, and it will mean that everyone will have a different build.


Ok, long term plans, will slowly finish this over the next couple of days. About halfway there.



Edit:

Simple thing for Pve (don't fix something that's not broken)

Question though - is a system that makes elixirs-free running not viable at all that great? Nothing appears "broken" when everyone is burning elixirs and is booting those that do not. While I agree that this does seem to be generating some sales, I feel that in the long run, a system that is both viable with and without elixirs will generate more players (and thus more sales) in the long run. I think that one of the reasons why PL's playerbase dropped in number was because of the environment that they faced (that and the lack of new content). "Fixing" PvE would go a long way to attracting and maybe retaining a highly competent (and profitable for STS) playerbase.

[Waug]

Two issues though:
In PvP, that damage is not very effective. It is not very useful because your target has really high dodge. Hence the scenario above. Target has 80% dodge. That means that to get drain life to hit, it will be dodged 80% of the time.

I think you're bit focused on an int mageagainst bear only, anyway.

Extra dodge should be neerfed OR dodge debuffs should land without getting dodged. opponent has high dodge that does not mean someone should have so much damage that can very few hit kills if not dodge, the balance can't be like that way. again there is 2 hit kills.

and the point I mentioned i.e ALREADY MAGES (endgame focused) HAVE HUGE DMG IN DRAIN, FIRE that should be distributed on other skills.
why this is necessary? because even if mages chose to be less damaging, going str, THEY CAN NUKE. So what do you think, a str mage should be able to nuke kill? so what's the point playing as fragile class/build to play with unless you're playing against similar classes/build.

[Timelife]

hmmm, as how i see it: bears need seriously less damage, or let's better say, nerf the scyth damage. for int mage, a bit more health, and less hit/dmg on fiery set with an increase of armour (eventually till its equal when u compare the goddess and sand walker sets), and yeah birds just got way too low dodge.. or maybe increase dodge in dex sets?

these would be my suggestions, note that this is based on endgame.. anyway i think this could make things way more balanced,
and about foxes and rhino's, i can't say much about it because i barely use them. #myopinion

[WhoIsThis]

I think you're bit focused on an int mageagainst bear only, anyway.

Extra dodge should be neerfed OR dodge debuffs should land without getting dodged. opponent has high dodge that does not mean someone should have so much damage that can very few hit kills if not dodge, the balance can't be like that way. again there is 2 hit kills.

and the point I mentioned i.e ALREADY MAGES (endgame focused) HAVE HUGE DMG IN DRAIN, FIRE that should be distributed on other skills.



Are you talking about endgame PvP or PvE?

I already answered that in my prior argument, which you have either ignored or do not understand the implications of. Damage is not a huge advantage when you're target dodges 80% of it.

Let's say you engage the enemy. They have 80% dodge. Now you cast any 2 moves (ex: drain + fire). I don't know how much advanced you knowledge is in statistics and probabilities, but here:

Your drain has an 80% chance of being dodged.
Your fire has an 80% chance of being dodged.
There is a 64% chance of both moves being dodged.
There is a 32% chance that only 1 move will hit, in which case unless the shot is a 1 hit KO, the target has very high H/S keeping them alive
There is only a 4% chance that both moves hit

Compounding the issue significantly, mages have a very high variance in their moves (which I will address later). Notice this:

Demonic Glyph Wand Min Max Average
Ice Storm 186 285 235.5
Frostbite 276 337 306.5
Fire Blast 313 439 376
Lightning 296 443 369.5
Drain Life 343 502 422.5
Main Weapon 206 251 228.5

Do a statistical analysis on those numbers. The implication? If the 32% chance occurs, even with a massive average damage, the target will not odds are die, because mages have a huge standard deviation on the damage output of their moves.

Compare this to dex:
Blast shot 414 - 435
Avian Scream 293 - 338
Repulse 341 - 361
Blinding Shot 319 - 383
Main Weapon 261 - 273

Note that the standard deviation of the bird abilities damage is lower.





For the sake of argument, so what would happen in your combat scenario? Pure int vs str bear? Well when RNG favors the mage, let's say 12% of the time, they kill the target. But 88% of the time, the mage is dead meat. Their abilities miss, no matter how much damage they do, and without good defenses of their own, they die (low dodge + armor).



When you're target has very high dodge (and all str toons do), they will dodge most of your attacks and their h/s will keep the few that do hit healed. This is a issue for all str toons btw. Warbird, rhino, and str mage too (a bit lower dodge, but remember that they have a good heal), the same logic applies.





why this is necessary? because even if mages chose to be less damaging, going str, THEY CAN NUKE. So what do you think, a str mage should be able to nuke kill?


You appear to have seriously misunderstood my arguments. Int mages and dex mages can are dps-oriented. Str mages will have lower damage because they are in tank gear and have about half their points in str. They are tanks. Re-read everything I have written.

1. I advocated for more dps for staff int. Wand/bracer int is fine.
2. I advocated for a nerf to dodge.

Str mages will remain largely unchanged, save for the dodge nerfs and the changes to skill mechanics. They can "nuke" yes, but the damage output is not going to be as high as dps-oriented mages.

Judging by your quotes, I do not think you understand how skill damage works. I will address this later. In the mean time, I recommend you look for posts back in 2011 - Physiologic's guides and Royce's posts on the matter will greatly benefit you. Until then, I would like you to explain to me how skill damage works - in other words, say when you cast "fire blast" - what causes fire blast to have say 300-400 damage? What causes it? Versus 200-300? If you understand the why, you'll understand that potent str mages is a non-issue.




so what's the point playing as fragile class/build to play with unless you're playing against similar classes/build.

Str mage is not a dps-oriented build. Pure int mage and int/dex mages are dps-oriented builds. Str mages are tanking-oriented classes in PvE and flag capture classes in PvP.



Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

[WhoIsThis]

hmmm, as how i see it: bears need seriously less damage, or let's better say, nerf the scyth damage. for int mage, a bit more health, and less hit/dmg on fiery set with an increase of armour (eventually till its equal when u compare the goddess and sand walker sets), and yeah birds just got way too low dodge.. or maybe increase dodge in dex sets?

these would be my suggestions, note that this is based on endgame.. anyway i think this could make things way more balanced,
and about foxes and rhino's, i can't say much about it because i barely use them. #myopinion


It's not a bad idea. It might even be implemented.


I'll keep it in the maybe category. The reason is, well, my recommendations will nerf the greatest thing all str toons have. Their dodge.

I get the impression that most of the responses here are very PvE oriented. Without their dodge, tanking becomes harder and they lose a huge advantage over dex/int toons.



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[Timelife]

[QUOTE=WhoIsThis;1326418]


I'll keep it in the maybe category. The reason is, well, my recommendations will nerf the greatest thing all str toons have. Their dodge.

haha yeah actually, i think ur right, dodge nerf for Str will be the solution :)

[Heroelite]

Where you say debuffs and beckon should always hit, do you mean that they cannot be dodged and missed? I agree on the undodgeable part, but I think they should still be able to miss, or else other hit reducing debuffs wouldn't be as useful, and things like hs timing (which is especially important in lower level pvp) wouldn't be as important. I was also a little confused if you meant beckon should always land only for PVE, and in that case I would agree. Other than that everything is fantastic.

[MightyMicah]

Where you say debuffs and beckon should always hit, do you mean that they cannot be dodged and missed? I agree on the undodgeable part, but I think they should still be able to miss, or else other hit reducing debuffs wouldn't be as useful, and things like hs timing (which is especially important in lower level pvp) wouldn't be as important. I was also a little confused if you meant beckon should always land only for PVE, and in that case I would agree. Other than that everything is fantastic.

To expand on this a little, what if the effects remain, but the damage can be dodged? For example, roots still root in place and debuff x amount of dodge, but they do not do any damage. Another example would be beckon and stomping without dealing any damage. Does that make sense?

[Heroelite]

To expand on this a little, what if the effects remain, but the damage can be dodged? For example, roots still root in place and debuff x amount of dodge, but they do not do any damage. Another example would be beckon and stomping without dealing any damage. Does that make sense?
I just feel that this would make a tank bear with high str and low dex become over powered as they can just continue to tank and debuff without having to worry about missed hits, because they can just keep taking reduced damage hits from debuffs while their damage eventually lands. I feel like dex bears who use high hit as a tool (like a full dex bear) would become obsolete.

[DocDoBig]

WhoIsThis is a true Legend.

[Faliziaga]

These are the pics I am referring to in my pm:

45839

45840

45841

[WhoIsThis]

Where you say debuffs and beckon should always hit, do you mean that they cannot be dodged and missed? I agree on the undodgeable part, but I think they should still be able to miss, or else other hit reducing debuffs wouldn't be as useful, and things like hs timing (which is especially important in lower level pvp) wouldn't be as important. I was also a little confused if you meant beckon should always land only for PVE, and in that case I would agree. Other than that everything is fantastic.


To expand on this a little, what if the effects remain, but the damage can be dodged? For example, roots still root in place and debuff x amount of dodge, but they do not do any damage. Another example would be beckon and stomping without dealing any damage. Does that make sense?

Correct.

From post:
For example, if a bird has blinding shot, only the debuff effect is a 100% chance to hit. If that bird shot at a target with say, 80% dodge, the damage from blinding shot would have an 80% chance to miss, but the debuff effects will ALWAYS hit.





I just feel that this would make a tank bear with high str and low dex become over powered as they can just continue to tank and debuff without having to worry about missed hits, because they can just keep taking reduced damage hits from debuffs while their damage eventually lands. I feel like dex bears who use high hit as a tool (like a full dex bear) would become obsolete.


With their dodge gone, remember, bears will be a lot easier to kill. This will ensure that they still have an advantage.



@Faliziaga

Debuffs are indeed stacking. This is already present in the game. I believe heals should cure them though, which reminds me - mage heal should cure all effects (that needs to be changed too - blinding shot is not cured right now). I believe Guardian should too for pallies heal every condition.

[Heroelite]

True but my arguments are based off of twink levels, where not all builds include debuffs. And if I think cb could be healed off then a bear would have no chance against a mage low level.

[Sheugokin]

I think reformations should benefit twink level if twink or endgame gets reformed. I believe so b/c, the level ranges are so much greater for twink than endgame. Just my two-cents

[Heroelite]

I think reformations should benefit twink level if twink or endgame gets reformed. I believe so b/c, the level ranges are so much greater for twink than endgame. Just my two-cents

But endgame and higher up levels where luck is dominant is where most of the reforms are needed.

[WhoIsThis]

True but my arguments are based off of twink levels, where not all builds include debuffs. And if I think cb could be healed off then a bear would have no chance against a mage low level.

With twinks, it's really going to come down to the level. I think each twink tier will have to be individually rebalanced.



But endgame and higher up levels where luck is dominant is where most of the reforms are needed.

The bulk of the reforms at the moment are geared towards 50+. But all levels should see some degree of benefit.

[MightyMicah]

With twinks, it's really going to come down to the level. I think each twink tier will have to be individually rebalanced.




The bulk of the reforms at the moment are geared towards 50+. But all levels should see some degree of benefit.

Just to add to this, WhoisThis is dealing with concepts here. Another way to put it is, he is laying the foundation. Right now PL is broken from the foundation up. He's fixing the foundational issues with his ideas, and only from there can he, or anyone else, begin to fix the rest of the game.

[WhoIsThis]

Ok I've added drafts for the dex and str based on my 2011 thread. It's still very much a work in progress though.'



Just to add to this, WhoisThis is dealing with concepts here. Another way to put it is, he is laying the foundation. Right now PL is broken from the foundation up. He's fixing the foundational issues with his ideas, and only from there can he, or anyone else, begin to fix the rest of the game.


Pretty much this. I'll put together a summary version of this thread later on when I'm done. It's going to contain all the recommended changes.

[Faliziaga]

Swift bird with blue ring of valiant glory


45869


Warbird with blue ring of valiant glory


45870

[WhoIsThis]

Thanks Faliziaga - will provide some analysis later on. Busy right now.

Edit:
Grr ... it seems the number of "thanks" you can give is limited in a 24h window.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

I have bear bird Mage at lvl 45,51,56,61,66,71 and rhino fox at 60 if you need any pics with any gear lemme know.

[Caiahar]

This thread is informative, and good, however, I am confused on something, please forgive me if it is a stupid question and has been already answered.
On the subject of buffs becoming percentages, I am fine with that, but if the damage part of the buff would be reduced to a percentage, wouldn't it make some problems at twinking?
Ex: Lets take low level pvp, mage versus mage. If the defensive buffs were to be percentages, then it is all right. But if the dmg was changed into % , wouldn't it be a problem?
If there is a pally, versus an int mage, the pally has less dmg, as points are into str, but higher tankiness and survivability. The int mage has good dmg, as he is int and has stronger attacks.
But if the pally and mage were to buff, they would recieve low dmg from the buffs, so the int mages dmg inflicts onto the pally, where his tankiness lowers it, and he can heal it, resulting in near full health.
The pally would get a very small dmg boost from the buff, and since pally already has significantly lower dmg than int mages, his attacks won't do much onto the int mages, and since the int mage has a high heal, he heals it away.
So wouldn't it become endless, until one of them runs out of mana? There are also other ways it can affect different classes, which I do not have the time to write for now. As I said before, please forgive me if you had already answered it in ypur posts.

[WhoIsThis]

This thread is informative, and good, however, I am confused on something, please forgive me if it is a stupid question and has been already answered.
On the subject of buffs becoming percentages, I am fine with that, but if the damage part of the buff would be reduced to a percentage, wouldn't it make some problems at twinking?
Ex: Lets take low level pvp, mage versus mage. If the defensive buffs were to be percentages, then it is all right. But if the dmg was changed into % , wouldn't it be a problem?

Good questions are always welcome.

The reason why I made the damage buffs as percentages was actually to improve balance. For example, say we have a buff that improves damage by 10%.

Say we have 2 toons, a twink that has an attack that does on average, 100 damage, and an endgame toon with 500 damage. That buff will do 110 for the twink and 550 for the endgame toon. The idea behind the percentages is that they scale with level, which is not the case with a number. I will likely create a separate thread explaining this in greater detail.




If there is a pally, versus an int mage, the pally has less dmg, as points are into str, but higher tankiness and survivability. The int mage has good dmg, as he is int and has stronger attacks.

Correct.




But if the pally and mage were to buff, they would recieve low dmg from the buffs, so the int mages dmg inflicts onto the pally, where his tankiness lowers it, and he can heal it, resulting in near full health.

Correct. Suppose we have our 10% buff. Suppose the pally does 300 damage and the int mage 400 damage for an attack. The buff would mean that the pally now does 330 damage and the int mage does 440 damage. At the same time, let's imagine that they have an armor buff. The armor buff will give a greater buff to the pally, because they have more armor as a result of wearing str gear.




The pally would get a very small dmg boost from the buff, and since pally already has significantly lower dmg than int mages, his attacks won't do much onto the int mages, and since the int mage has a high heal, he heals it away.
So wouldn't it become endless, until one of them runs out of mana? There are also other ways it can affect different classes, which I do not have the time to write for now.

Pally vs int mage fights are usually not that long. You have to understand that if one side does enough burst damage that is high enough that the other cannot heal, the other will die. This is good because it emphasizes timing above all else, which in turn emphasizes skill. In PvP, it's not so much about doing crazy high sustained damage as much as it is about doing high burst damage. Selecting the right moves at the right time is what makes the difference.

A lot of new players I find tend to think that PvP is all button mashing. In an luck based RNG type PvP with super high dodge, there's some truth to that statement. But with less dodge, it becomes more about timing, and hitting the right skill at right time. This subject too deserves a separate thread.

At some point, I will make a series of short threads on several issues that I consider unaddressed.




As I said before, please forgive me if you had already answered it in ypur posts.

Good questions are always welcome. Well thought out questions are a good thing - they may bring up something that I have overlooked. Let me know of the other scenarios that you wish to address.

[WhoIsThis]

I'm going to re-write the equipment section this weekend so that it's shorter and a bit more relevant.

[MightyMicah]

I'm going to re-write the equipment section this weekend so that it's shorter and a bit more relevant.

Awesome! Let us know when...

[Caiahar]

@Whoisthis: Thanks for the reply, I see things more clearly now.
All of these ideas are good, making buffs into percentages, etc.
But if these were to happen, would they work well with the recent dmg nerf? The dmg nerf, IMO, didn't make things better much, so I'm wondering if these would work well together with the dmg nerf, as I don't exactly see it being taken away soon.


All for one, and one for all.

[MightyMicah]

@Whoisthis: Thanks for the reply, I see things more clearly now.
All of these ideas are good, making buffs into percentages, etc.
But if these were to happen, would they work well with the recent dmg nerf? The dmg nerf, IMO, didn't make things better much, so I'm wondering if these would work well together with the dmg nerf, as I don't exactly see it being taken away soon.


All for one, and one for all.

I suppose if they implemented the rest of his suggestions, revoking the damage nerf would be a small deal ;)

[stricker20000]

str-dex bear with ring of valiance (savage scythe set)
46024

pure str bear with ring of valiance (both with savage shield, not egg)
46025

[Faliziaga]

Str mage with blue ring of valiant glory

46026

Dex fox with blue dragon ring

46027

Str fox with blue dragon ring

46028

[WhoIsThis]

@Whoisthis: Thanks for the reply, I see things more clearly now.
All of these ideas are good, making buffs into percentages, etc.
But if these were to happen, would they work well with the recent dmg nerf? The dmg nerf, IMO, didn't make things better much, so I'm wondering if these would work well together with the dmg nerf, as I don't exactly see it being taken away soon.


All for one, and one for all.

Pretty much I'm calling for the nerf to be phased out.


I suppose if they implemented the rest of his suggestions, revoking the damage nerf would be a small deal ;)

Yep. Essentially from a mechanics standpoint, the game would be similar to pre-angel 66, except for one aspect. Skill points would matter. A lot. Not everyone would have the same build.




Can you explain what effective damage is?

As far as I see it, Waug, damage primarily comes from attribute points and increasing the skill levels... not from the base damage.

Well, in the context of Pocket Legends, effective damage would be:

Damage done - armor

And in the context of PvP
(Damage done - armor) x (1 - target's dodge percentage)




That said, I do not believe that he took the time to read my suggestions, judging by the first line (as I put exactly that in my post) nor did he take my suggestion to read up on Physiologic's posts about game mechanics.

[Sheugokin]

Please Sam, Delphina H2N, anyone!!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE READ THIS !!!!!!!!!! I say that someone send this directly to support. This has to be implemented. If STG is not going to raise a cap, DO THIS! PLEASE!

[WhoIsThis]

By any chance, does anybody have a screenshot of a pure int mage with the crafted Fiery Dragon and a dragon set (any) ring?

[Oldcoot]

My mag, oldcoothree .

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q781/oldcootxx/null_zps67099a32.png

[WhoIsThis]

Thanks Oldcoot.

I'm going to get my thoughts down first, then incorporate the pictures into the thread.


Edit:
Ok it's done. I've completed a revision of the equipment thread.

If anyone want's it, the old one is here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?123444-Old-Revision-of-Equipment-Thread&p=1331000#post1331000

[Faliziaga]

Maybe the burning bush branch staff could be relevant too, as it has a bit more weapon damage and +20 armor than the fiery staff.

46128


Fire skill with elite staff equipped : 560-675
Fire skill with wand/eye equipped: 475-627
If I'm not mistaken it's 18-8% more weapon damage


46129

[WhoIsThis]

Maybe the burning bush branch staff could be relevant too, as it has a bit more weapon damage and +20 armor than the fiery staff.

Fire skill with elite staff equipped : 560-675
Fire skill with wand/eye equipped: 475-627
If I'm not mistaken it's 18-8% more weapon damage


46129

Fair enough about the burning bush. It is slightly more powerful than the 75 staff. But look again:


Fire skill on staff gives 560-675, which averages out to 617.5.
Fire skill on wand/bracer gives 475 - 627, which averages out to 551.

617.5 / 551 = about 1.12, so staff is 12% more powerful than wand

One issue though:
Crit on staff is just 54%. Crit on wand, is about 10% higher at 64%.

So for 12% higher base damage, you lose 10% crit. Also, note the weapons dps. 353/319 (granted the staff will do more per hit because staffs have a speed of 1.1 versus 1.0 for the wand), but the staff only does 10.65% more weapons dps, which in turn is offset by the 10% higher crit on the wand.

It's actually more complicated then that. A dead mage does no dps. Things hit harder in this tier than before in PvE. With staff you're much more likely to die. So the 12% base damage, less the 10% crit bonus only tells a part of the story. The only benefit of the staff is that it is slower and does slightly more (12% damage) per skill, which may help against heavily armored targets.


46143
46144




And in return for going on staff, judging by the 2 pictures in return for that slight gain in damage, you lose compared to wand/bracer:
- 241 - 188 or 53 armor (by the way, 241/188 = ~28% less armor)
- 2% dodge
- 22 health
- 1 M/S (not big but still not a good choice)
- 11 H/S

I still stand by what I said. Staff even with the 76 staff does not justify it's gains.


For the staff to be worth it, it would need:
- The same crit as the wand/bracer set
- A bit more than 12% damage; seeing that it has 28% less armor, it's only fair that it gets 28% more damage


At the moment, only birds use the 2h weapon, the level 76 bow. But the 2h sword and the 2h staff are not used by bears/pallies, nor mages as much respectively.

What we need is a

1. 76 wand and a 76 1h sword
2. The buffs to the 2h sword and staff

[Mr.Wallace]

First of all, I am amazed by the effort and precision you put into this great thread, Attackelf!

As I resurrected my forum account, gonna give my 2 cents too ;)

For the younger readers, who don't know me: I used to play a lot during AO3 / Sewer days. Since I quit I only sneak in occasionally to check out new content. So I am not exactly up to date.

I think you ate right to focus on reforms just from the PvP view. While I never was a PvP person I grew to believe that the pve part of pl is so broken, that there is no way of fixing it with "just" changes in game mechanics.
Since nuri's I find playing pve, especially in pugs frustratingly hard when without elixir and mind numbing boring when on multi elixir. The fact, that in every pug there is at least one speed potted player kills all team play ambitions, which where the center piece of an enjoyable pve experience for me.
And all the many people liked to spend hours of theory planning how to build, how to skill, how to gear your toon to improve are now pointless cause a multi elixir is way better than your best build improvement.
I can't imagine that many pve enthusiasts are still playing pl.

So I think the direction of this thread is perfect, try to save PvP - as long as there are no PvP elixirs available. ;)

[WhoIsThis]

First of all, I am amazed by the effort and precision you put into this great thread, Attackelf!

As I resurrected my forum account, gonna give my 2 cents too ;)

For the younger readers, who don't know me: I used to play a lot during AO3 / Sewer days. Since I quit I only sneak in occasionally to check out new content. So I am not exactly up to date.

I think you ate right to focus on reforms just from the PvP view. While I never was a PvP person I grew to believe that the pve part of pl is so broken, that there is no way of fixing it with "just" changes in game mechanics.
Since nuri's I find playing pve, especially in pugs frustratingly hard when without elixir and mind numbing boring when on multi elixir. The fact, that in every pug there is at least one speed potted player kills all team play ambitions, which where the center piece of an enjoyable pve experience for me.
And all the many people liked to spend hours of theory planning how to build, how to skill, how to gear your toon to improve are now pointless cause a multi elixir is way better than your best build improvement.
I can't imagine that many pve enthusiasts are still playing pl.

So I think the direction of this thread is perfect, try to save PvP - as long as there are no PvP elixirs available. ;)



Unfortunately, it's not just PvP that needs saving. PvE is also not viable without elixirs as you've noted.

The majority of the people we knew are gone. The issue with PvE is that there's little incentive to well, get better. What we need is a system to incentive people to get better at PvE and where elixirs are not used.

That said, I think the difficulty level forces it. The reality is, without elixirs, builds like pure int mage and pure dex bird would not be viable. Everyone would forced to be strength. But apart from that, the other issue is that the average PUG simply does not have the skill needed to complete any of the levels without the use of some elixirs. I sometimes go to lower end levels and solo them just to keep my non-elixir PvE skills at an acceptable level.

[WhoIsThis]

I'm going to put together a more modest guide. This guide will remain the "stretch" target.

See here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?123599-A-more-modest-proposal-to-balance-the-game

[Mr.Wallace]

Unfortunately, it's not just PvP that needs saving. PvE is also not viable without elixirs as you've noted.

The majority of the people we knew are gone. The issue with PvE is that there's little incentive to well, get better. What we need is a system to incentive people to get better at PvE and where elixirs are not used.

That said, I think the difficulty level forces it. The reality is, without elixirs, builds like pure int mage and pure dex bird would not be viable. Everyone would forced to be strength. But apart from that, the other issue is that the average PUG simply does not have the skill needed to complete any of the levels without the use of some elixirs. I sometimes go to lower end levels and solo them just to keep my non-elixir PvE skills at an acceptable level.

I noticed my post wasn't constructive or helpful, so some actual ideas that could be interesting:

To promote elixir free playing as an alternative to the new normal:
1 count kills separately when on elixir
2 count kills with made xp anywhere even separate from that
3 extra leaderboards for elixir free kills
4 a timed map with leaderboards for elixir/clean groups
5 specific loot for elixir free groups (f.e different colored gear)
6 elixir free quest with item reward (kill koal 50 times with clean groups and receive item x)

For a team play revival:
7 higher bonus damage for mega combos
8 more mega combos with new classes
9 bosses who are vulnerable to a certain class / mega combos
10 After leveling up to level 30, 40, 50 ... you get to see a mini tutorial on a topic of basic class and team mechanics

Gear:
11 sets with a DMG, armor or speed bonus that doesn't stack with elixirs
12 Less DMG for str gear (Too many mages/birds wearing str is part of the reason why elixir free runs are so terrible now in my opinion - lots of missing skill DMG)

[WhoIsThis]

I noticed my post wasn't constructive or helpful, so some actual ideas that could be interesting:

To promote elixir free playing as an alternative to the new normal:
1 count kills separately when on elixir
2 count kills with made xp anywhere even separate from that
3 extra leaderboards for elixir free kills
4 a timed map with leaderboards for elixir/clean groups
5 specific loot for elixir free groups (f.e different colored gear)
6 elixir free quest with item reward (kill koal 50 times with clean groups and receive item x)

For a team play revival:
7 higher bonus damage for mega combos
8 more mega combos with new classes
9 bosses who are vulnerable to a certain class / mega combos
10 After leveling up to level 30, 40, 50 ... you get to see a mini tutorial on a topic of basic class and team mechanics

Gear:
11 sets with a DMG, armor or speed bonus that doesn't stack with elixirs
12 Less DMG for str gear (Too many mages/birds wearing str is part of the reason why elixir free runs are so terrible now in my opinion - lots of missing skill DMG)

Interesting ideas, but the issues are going to be:

1. How to persuade STS of an alternative to an elixir dominated game?
2. Balancing multiple types of gear (right now they're struggling to balance 3 sets for PvP, so with 6 sets ... that could create some serious issues from a PvP standpoint).
3. How to prevent people from "gaming" the leaderboards (usually someone is going to figure out a way to "game" the leaderboards in a way that doesn't break any rules - PvP kill farming is kind of like this).
4. How to get a PuG to coordinate a mega combo (most pugs simply do not have that type of coordination).

They're good ideas though. I'm not sure how to implement them effectively though.

[WhoIsThis]

I added a section on my proposals to change the skills. This is coming along slower than I expected, and I have modified a few things based on my observations of PvP.

I plan to write a conclusion soon and add the images provided.

Does anybody else have feedback for this thread?

[MightyMicah]

I added a section on my proposals to change the skills. This is coming along slower than I expected, and I have modified a few things based on my observations of PvP.

I plan to write a conclusion soon and add the images provided.

Does anybody else have feedback for this thread?

Dude, this is SO good! As I've been watching you make change after change, I've been thinking in my head thoughts such as, "What about this? And what about that?" I haven't voiced them because I have been patiently waiting for you to complete everything. It seems my patience is paying off! What you have created is a full-proof system for pve/pvp mechanics. Certainly these suggestions and theories of yours have yet to be tested for balance, however you are very effectively laying a foundation upon which changes could be easily altered afterwards, if need be, to complete balancing arrangements. SO good!

In my comment above I got so carried away that I forgot to mention what I'm even excited about in the recent change. You have effectively solved the problem of health pool increase in direct proportion to level increase. It seems so simple, yet so complex. Very well done.

[WhoIsThis]

Dude, this is SO good! As I've been watching you make change after change, I've been thinking in my head thoughts such as, "What about this? And what about that?" I haven't voiced them because I have been patiently waiting for you to complete everything. It seems my patience is paying off! What you have created is a full-proof system for pve/pvp mechanics. Certainly these suggestions and theories of yours have yet to be tested for balance, however you are very effectively laying a foundation upon which changes could be easily altered afterwards, if need be, to complete balancing arrangements. SO good!

In my comment above I got so carried away that I forgot to mention what I'm even excited about in the recent change. You have effectively solved the problem of health pool increase in direct proportion to level increase. It seems so simple, yet so complex. Very well done.

Yeah I meant for this to be scalable. Balancing a game is never an easy issue.

I am considering the possibility of giving strength hit.

The only issue right now is, will the devs act on it?

[anahadaz]

Ok I know this is an old thread but I was reading through it and decided to ask a question I always forget to ask, which probably will make me sound stupid, although I am not very informed on the mechanics.

If you compare the stats of a regular fiery mage with the bears posted on page 3 even without rings, it just doesn't make sense, having range doesnt make it any easier for mages so why are the armour amd damage, health and dodge stats so unbalanced? I understand that str, dex and int have different strengths but this below is ridiculous.

97208

It is even worse with dex archers like the one on page 3, even without rings they are too superior to mages, yes their armour isnt great but there isn't much difference between theirs and fiery mages, the majority of their skills are damage focused and so they kill too quickly. Can I also add that the small difference in armour is ridiculous because that is with the bird using a two handed weapon, and a fiery mage using a wand and shield! When birds use talon set, their armour is better and the damage is still better. There was a time where you could ms when charging so their blast shot hits your health, but they all know that trick now..

What I'm saying is, you have to do a lot of work and worry about too many things at once as a fiery mage to have a chance of killing. Believe it or not I have killed some bears occasionally who would destroy me usually, but that was because I dodged beckon too many times, got some crits, while at the same time frantically trying to watch my mana, health, trying to stay away from the bear while I watch in despair as drain fire and lightning are dodged, until finally i get a lucky combo where everything lands..then they just beckon stomp dead in the next fight..

Why is it at endgame that birds and bears are so much simpler to use? Bears just need to worry about landing beckon, birds need to worry about being able to press 3 skills in 2 seconds vs mages and being able to land repulse on bears then skill spam..

Does anyone think sts did this because mages pretty much dominate pvp nearly up to level 50? Or is that a badly researched statement?

[Waug]

^ thing is ur viewing everything from an already broken system.

endgame mages r STILL op yes overpowered in term of 'nuke' BUT endgame int set is underpowered in term of defense add op dodge of dodgy classes with that.

in one sentence, str classes r op in endgame.

[XghostzX]

@Ana
Every class is OP, that's the fact of the matter. Mages can do insane damage in terms of nuking/crit/AOE.

So when you 1v1 a bird, why are they so difficult?

All the mages skills have a delay on them, whereas a bird's skills are instantaneous. That split-second elapsed time is critical for winning a fight. I enjoy having the delayed skills as it can make things interesting and really useful when mastered - but you get the idea.

Bears just have an unfair advantage of both armor and stuns spells. Their combined armor, stuns, and damage is altogether ludicrous. When/If STS decides to rework the stats, they need to make the bears focus on just armor and stunning, but not the damage aspect. If this is the case, their armor should be increased, but their damage should be dramatically decreased. (Then you have problems with skill level damage, dodge, and crit for all classes... but those are the essential pieces).

[anahadaz]

@Ana
Every class is OP, that's the fact of the matter. Mages can do insane damage in terms of nuking/crit/AOE.

So when you 1v1 a bird, why are they so difficult?

All the mages skills have a delay on them, whereas a bird's skills are instantaneous. That split-second elapsed time is critical for winning a fight. I enjoy having the delayed skills as it can make things interesting and really useful when mastered - but you get the idea.

Bears just have an unfair advantage of both armor and stuns spells. Their combined armor, stuns, and damage is altogether ludicrous. When/If STS decides to rework the stats, they need to make the bears focus on just armor and stunning, but not the damage aspect. If this is the case, their armor should be increased, but their damage should be dramatically decreased. (Then you have problems with skill level damage, dodge, and crit for all classes... but those are the essential pieces).

Why are they so difficult? I die in less than half of a second (to most of them anyway), like i don't even get a skill away, just so fast!

[anahadaz]

@Ana
Every class is OP, that's the fact of the matter. Mages can do insane damage in terms of nuking/crit/AOE.

So when you 1v1 a bird, why are they so difficult?

All the mages skills have a delay on them, whereas a bird's skills are instantaneous. That split-second elapsed time is critical for winning a fight. I enjoy having the delayed skills as it can make things interesting and really useful when mastered - but you get the idea.

Bears just have an unfair advantage of both armor and stuns spells. Their combined armor, stuns, and damage is altogether ludicrous. When/If STS decides to rework the stats, they need to make the bears focus on just armor and stunning, but not the damage aspect. If this is the case, their armor should be increased, but their damage should be dramatically decreased. (Then you have problems with skill level damage, dodge, and crit for all classes... but those are the essential pieces).

Also I returned to 76 pvp for today and all of a sudden I was able to make use of the heal lag time, when beckon stomped by a bear at the start i flew across the map at full health!