WhoIsThis
11-09-2013, 10:21 PM
This is just the older revision of the equipment thread for anybody that wants to view it. I'm not sure where else to put it, but I was asked by someone outside of the forums to keep it for public viewing rather than delete it.
In any event, it might be useful in the future. My new revision has already been incorporated into my main thread here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?122775-Game-mechanics-and-equipment-a-thread-to-reform-PL-and-re-establish-class-balance
Equipment Changes
Let me ask you a question, what would make a perfect set for each type - str, dex, and int? Well, let me define perfect. Perfect would mean:
1. Useful in a group of 5 in a PvE environment
2. Relatively well balance in the context of PvP combat
3. Has a role to play in a CTF game
4. Conforms to the "lore" of the game
Well, what do we have? Essentially we have
1. Str based tank sets (used by all classes)
2. Dex based single target sets (used by all classes)
3. Int based AOE damage sets (used mainly by int mages)
Within those classes, we have sub types, one hand and two hand, and melee vs ranged.
Current situation
Well, looking at the pure classes, we'd have:
Str - sword and shield (the sword and shield are used for tanking mostly)
Dex - bow and crossbow (used by all classes, esp dex bird and dex ranger, for which the daggers don't do as much skill damage)
Int - wand and bracer or staff (used mostly by mages - I think like the 2h swords, staffs need a buff in damage output)
The big issue that I think everyone cares about the most is the equipment used most. The str shield/sword, the dex crossbow, the dex bow, the int staff, and the int wand/bracer.
From a damage standpoint, the str 2 handed swords, the dex wing/talon, and the daggers (and dual daggers) are not widely used. I will discuss in another thread what I feel could make these useful, but right now I would like to focus on the ones above. Skill damage you see is not as heavily based upon the base damage of the weapon, but rather the amount of int/dex/str that your toon has.
Let me take my post from 2011, and substantially modify it.
Int
Int mages today (circa 76 tier) face a pretty big challenge. They're attacks are heavily dodged. With the dodge changes I propose above, it should make int sets much more viable. But that's not enough. They're underpowered, completely inviable in endgame PvP, and arguably suboptimal in PvE without elixirs.
The Sets
To begin with, the demonic glyph wand set was pretty close to an ideal mage set (slightly lower mana regen and too much wasted in useless health regen) as possible, while the demonic glyph staff set was far from ideal.
Images unbuffed:
Thanks to Awwmang for briefly lending me his wand set
45730
45731
Buffed:
45732
45733
Stats
Unbuffed:
Demonic Glyph Staff Min Max Average
Ice Storm 230 326 278
Frostbite 318 377 347.5
Fire Blast 354 476 415
Lightning 338 480 409
Drain Life 384 539 461.5
Main Weapon 249 272 260.5; weapon speed adjustment 236.8181818
Demonic Glyph Wand Min Max Average
Ice Storm 186 285 235.5
Frostbite 276 337 306.5
Fire Blast 313 439 376
Lightning 296 443 369.5
Drain Life 343 502 422.5
Main Weapon 206 251 228.5
Difference (staff / int) average
Staff/Wand
Ice Storm 1.180467091
Frostbite 1.133768352
Fire Blast 1.103723404
Lightning 1.106901218
Drain Life 1.092307692
Main Weapon 1.036403422
On average, we are looking at about 10% more power on the staff set, which translates into a bit more once enemy armor is factored in. Buffed numbers are just 9%.
In return for just 10% more damage, the staff set is sacrificing 46 armor, 1% crit, 4% dodge, and 5M/S. Needless to say, in PvP in a 1v1, staff almost always lost versus wand. This was not the case in the Mega Mage days, where staff and wand could beat each other roughly evenly.
Factor in the proc and the wand actually does more auto damage than the staff. Wand has a "weakness" re-roll proc while the staff has a burn proc (use with frost bite) and AOE.
By far the most crippling problem on the glyph staff set though was the poor (by mage standards) mana regen of only 25 M/S. The wand set could also benefit from a bit more mana regen. The other big issue is that it's mana region per second. You get 25 M/S in this example. The big issue is that mages need their mana regenerating every 0.25s (the GCD). I'd rather have 6.25 mana every 0.25s (far more critical).
Compared to its enchanted and mega mage counterparts, the staff set offered a minimal increase in protection, a decrease compared to MM in mana regen, only a paltry increase in base damage, but a noticeable increase in crit.
Compared to its 55 counterparts, the wand set offered an improvement in everything except mana regen: base damage and crit were up, along with armor and dodge
Results:
- Wand int mage was OP for PvP
- Staff int mage was decent for group fights, but underpowered for 1v1 (weak vs warbird and str bear; very low chance of winning a staff vs wand fight against another int mage)
For your reference, heal on the staff and wand sets:
Staff
Heal 141-289; Average 215
Wand
Heal 145-296; Average 220.5
Heal is only affected by how much int you have and how many points you have in heal (all mages should max heal by the end game). Wand will have slightly higher as it has more int.
So what would make a perfect int set?
Well, to begin with, each of the 3 classes when using their core sets has one nearly useless stat that equipment almost always buffs:
- Int mages: H/S is worthless on staff set; high armor on the wand set makes it somewhat useful, although the points would be much better expended in mana regen or base damage
- Dex birds: Hit % is worthless; pure dex birds already have 100% hit and focus only adds to their hit % even more
- Str bears: M/S is worthless; bear skills do not devour much mana; 8M/S is overkill in fact
Edit:
Sets should be designed for their core classes first. For example, in the int section, we are not discussing how to design the ultimate int bird or int bear set. That said, I have devoted a significant proportion of this thread to discussing the 3 classes with str and dex builds, since they are widely used. However, I always believe that the core class is first, for example, an ideal str set should not be designed for pallies at the expense of bears (which happened with fury; although it later worked out because fortified proved to be a pretty good set for bear).
Why H/S is less useful on a mage:
Suppose we have 2 targets. Both have 50 H/S. Suppose one is a mage with 0% dodge (in practice they will usually have single digits), and a bear with 50% dodge (bears can get higher than this). The mage has 100 armor and the bear 200.
Now imagine if we have 4 hits of 300 damage per second over a period of 4s.
For mage:
Damage sustained:
Damage per hit:
300 - 100 = 200
Damage taken
200 x 4 = 800
Less damage healed
800 - 50 x 4 = 600
For bear
Damage per hit:
300 - 200 = 100
Damage taken
100 x 4 = 400
Times dodge
400 x (1 - 0.5) = 200
Less damage healed
200 - 50 x 4 = 0
Assuming that it was the first 2 shots that hit, in which case the bear would sustain zero damage. If the 2nd and 3rd shot hit (or 2nd and 4th), the bear would be less 50 hp. If the 3rd and 4th shots hit, the bear would have lost 100 hp. If that were a pure int mage, 600 hp would mean that unless the mage healed, they would be dead.
The reason is because when dodge and armor are taken into account, H/S is very ineffective on a mage. Seeing that enemies hit in excess of 200 damage in Nuri and in PvP, with a staff, you'd probably be dead before you could take advantage of the health regen by much. I have not even factored in that mages can heal! It may be useful on a wand mage, but it would be far better expended in armor in that case.
I suppose in the Sewers, where enemies only hit 30 damage per hit, H/S may have been moderately useful, but in Nuri, the numbers tell me otherwise. A lot of players I find tend to suffer from the "placebo effect" thinking that H/S makes a life-or-death difference - it does not as the numbers show.
In my opinion, all experienced int mages should use staff in PvE, due to the superior damage output, except when fighting bosses with a PUG (to avoid aggro). The damage output is noticeable. Only novice mages who have difficulties keeping themselves alive throughout Nuri should stick with wand. One exception may be levels where it doesn't matter if you kill enemies and survivability is crucial (Nuri's madness).
The Perfect Int Set
What would make a perfect int mage set?
To begin with, there should be a wand and a staff, just like always before.
- Very high base damage (highest in the game)
- 40%+ crit unbuffed; crit in the current Glyph sets is good
- At least 40 M/S of mana regen (maybe more) - remember at 0.25s intervals (so 10 mana every 0.25s)
- Some hit % for when you are debuffed (happens a lot in PvP and sometimes as well in PvE; some mobs DO debuff) - go for ~140%ish hit
- Massive boost to the int stat (for extra base damage and to make heal high)
- Some armor, but fairly low dodge (say 12-13%, so 1 in 8 shots are dodged, low enough to be insignificant, but high enough to make a tactical difference)
- Nice to have would be a mana reserve (kind of like the 50 mana reserve that enchanted staff set gave); optional though for game balance
- Staff, given the loss in survivability should be 20-25% more powerful in damage output on average than wand to justify the loss. To do this, I propose doubling the amount of int on all staffs currently for future endgame tiers, creating an angel staff, and giving it double the int of the sum total of the current angel wand and bracer. In exchange, it would have no armor, so basically you're getting 20-25% more damage (instead of the 9-10% damage) but for roughly a 20-25% loss in survivability. This seems like a fair trade-off to me. The 9% (as I showed earlier was not a fair trade-off). For a 25% loss in survivability, you gain a meager 9% more in firepower.
- Keep the current procs. Wand should be a darkbolt with weakness and staff should be a fire staff with AOE and burn.
Weaknesses of this set:
- Poor survivability, especially for staff.
- Small amount of armor increase (compared to demonic glyph) and low dodge
I have deliberately left weaknesses in the interests of game balance and to keep the difficulty high. Note the omission of H/S. Note that as it stands, the Angel set is not bad. Neither is the Lilith Crafted set.
Dex
Dex birds have changed significantly since the images below - if possible I would like to see a 76 dex bird image in the top end set (please PM me or post in this thread if you have one).
Note that this section right now is a work in progress.
Dex bird, circa level 61 cap (see attachments):
Unbuffed
2602
Buffed
2603
Dex damage output (pure dex):
Blast shot 414 - 435
Avian Scream 293 - 338
Repulse 341 - 361
Blinding Shot 319 - 383
Main Weapon 261 - 273
It doesn't say how much break armor does, but I would guess it is similar to these values. The roots both do damage over time, with thorn root doing the greater single damage.
Note these ranges between the minimum and maximum are much more narrow compared to the int values. There is no difference between buffed and unbuffed values as unlike rage and blessings of might, focus does not add damage.
My Commentary
The performance of dex birds and dex rangers seems to heavily depend on the level. There are some levels they do very well and others that they seem to have issues. Dex rangers will prefer
On the whole though, they are pretty decent.
Advantages:
- Good single target damage
- Good burst damage (important in PvP)
- High dodge when buffed
- Low standard deviation of attacks
Weaknesses:
- Poor armor if they get hit
Specifically for the Vixen, it was originally intended to be a melee class. The issue is that the daggers do not do as much skill damage. I am open to the idea of improving daggers to make them more viable (who wouldn't want to see a dual wielding class?). The issue is that although their dps looks good, daggers really don't offer the skill damage needed to be viable.
The Perfect Dex Set
To begin with, instead of a dagger and an auto a return to the 50 (blaster/sunblessed bow) or 55 (auto/recurve) where there is one set that does a lot of damage with a 10m range and a second which does less damage in return for long range would be ideal. Base damage is the only thing that should be different, although for balance, perhaps the 10m set should have better crit. Daggers are not very effective, even with the high armor on a dex build because they have to close to close range so auto damage although it looks good on paper, is vastly reduced.
- Highest crit of any set in game (same amount of crit as custom before would be ideal)
- Highest weapons damage in game (which dex builds have always had and always will)
- High base damage (around 10% increase compared to the demonic obedience; will be less than int though)
- High H/S (H/S is useful on bird because bird heal is not as good as mage heal, because of the bird's dodge, and because birds can stay at a distance if they wish)
- Moderate amount of mana regen (somewhere between custom and the glyph 60 sets would be ideal); I think most dex players would trade more damage for mana. Birds have meditate, bears don't need a lot of mana, and mages, as I will explain below, won't be too adversely affected.
- Moderate amount of armor
- A bit of dodge for good measure (not too much as this would unbalance the game)
- Notice that hit % is not mentioned in this; in both PvP and PvE, even when hit with a debuff, they should still have enough hit %; I suppose only a low amount of hit is needed; optional
- Also note that I did not say "massive boost to dex stat"; crit would be far more valuable than more dex (for int mages, base damage matters more)
Weaknesses:
- Poor survivability, although I expect that due to evade, it will be better than int sets. Plus, with a longer range (auto) and higher weapon muzzle velocity, dex sets can stay at range if needed and allow the tanks in their parties to absorb the worst of it.
Near perfect sets:
- Custom Recurve: Could have had slightly higher base damage and a bit more mana regen, but otherwise perfect. In fact, I'd say custom birds were borderline OP. Enchanted and fortified both forced their wearers to make compromises (mana regen), while custom was an improvement in both survivability and damage output (due to the higher crit).
Class Specific Commentary
For dex mages, the raid roach auto bow in the 55 days could be considered near-perfect. The reduced crit was still enough to go over 100 buffed and the higher base damage combined with long range made it a better choice than custom recurve.
For Vixen rangers and bow using dex bears, I think that overall, their requirements are similar to those of the dex bird - the "perfect" dex set above should serve them well. Note that some skills do scale with int (poison needle and poison dart). I still feel that dex is the stronger skill - I need to test this one out.
Expected Results
- Birds should retain their position as damage king and should be more balanced in PvP
- Dex bear will be a more viable build and should not have to use any mana potions whatsoever
- Dex mage will not be too harmed. There will be an adjustment period for dex mages. However, I notice that in the 55 days, the preferred dex mage set, the raid roach auto bow had low mana regen and yet dex mages were still so powerful than there were several threads on the forums (and complaints in game) that dex mages were OP.
- Birds will have to either use a bit more mana potions or put some points in meditation. Dex mages in PvE will need to use more mana potions.
- For PvE, health potions will have to be used liberally by dex birds and dex bears, with a moderate amount by dex mages (whose heal is weaker than int mages).
Str
Str is a bit of a challenge, because the needs of all 5 classes differ. On paper at least, all 5 classes can tank, although I feel that bear, pally, and to a lesser extent str mage are best for PvE (bear due to taunt and pally due to summon - provided of course you have good tanks that know how to use them, which unfortunately is often in short supply). All 5 can be flag carriers though in PvP. One advantage that pallies and str mages have is their ability to revive, which combined with a str based build makes them hard to kill in this regard.
The strength level 66 set was pretty solid. It represented a huge step forward over the fury and fortified predecessors. I think that one of the flaws of the Angel and latter was that it had too much dodge, leading to a luck-based PvP system.
Note: I am looking for a warbird, str bear, and pally for pictures for this thread.
Results:
- Bears were vastly more potent than their 55 predecessors and for 60 pvp were balanced (underpowered IMO for 55 pvp), and a good set for PvE
- Pally received an impressive gain in damage output and for the first time since rift were able to get some kills (in the fury days, being a pally meant that others would "steal" all your kills); reasonably balanced
- Warbirds became the most OP build in 60 PvP. No real weaknesses in PvP. The only build that gave them difficulties were pallies. Traditionally, in a dex bird vs warbird fight, all other things being equal, we could expect a dex bird to win. With the strongman's set, this was no longer the case. They were also quite powerful against int and dex mages just like before, and no longer lost to bears (which they often lost to in the fortified days due to running out of mana). There have been accusations (and IMO with some justification) that warbird needed no skill. I wouldn't say "no skill", but less skill.
I recommend that for pure PvE, mages and birds opt for a damage dealing (int mage and dex bird) build instead.
The ideal str set
- Highest armor of any set in the game
- Highest dodge of and set in the game (although not too high for balance purposes; actually the amount of dodge on strongmans is ideal; carry this amount forward)
- Highest health regen of any set in the game (recall my post on H/S mages ... by contrast, H/S is very useful on a str build).
- Moderate amount of hit % (not too high though for game balance)
- A small buff to base damage (not too high for game balance)
- Perhaps a health reserve from set bonus like the one fortified had (optional for game balance purposes)
- A boost to str is optional; it does increase health reserves, but not as important; more survivability would be better
This set should serve tanking bears, warbirds, rhinos, and perhaps tanking rangers well. They don't need much mana regen.
Note that in CTF, this set is a flag capture oriented build. You probably will not get 1 to 1 K/D ratio against good players, but that's not your job. Your job is the flag person.
Modifications for classes
Str mages have slightly different requirements. They need mana more so than other str classes. Pallies have a mana shield. Mana regen. Bears don't need much, nor warbirds, or rangers. They need like 6 M/S, while with bird and pally, it is more like 16 m/s. Bears would prefer more survivability over mana. For pallies, mana IS life (especially with shield on). Birds need it. I think that the ideal set is going to have to have high mana regen. The solution? I recommend that instead of a 2h longsword (that was very rarely ever used), that we have 2 1h weapons. One 1h weapon will have high mana regen. The other 1h weapon will have high health regen with low mana regen. The other 3 pieces (helmet, plate, and shield) can then have low mana regen.
Another issue is that right now, sometimes Rhino seems to struggle with PvP (I need more experience to confirm this one), outside of CTF flag capturing.
Near Perfect Sets:
- In other words, the level 66 set already comes to the ideal set already. Just buff every characteristic except dodge (for balance) and mana regen (which could actually be reduced in favor of more armor) and it's all good.
- For bears, apart from the low dodge and lack of hit%, the fortified set was otherwise perfect. The low mana regen on fortified was no weakness for str bears. The high base damage somewhat offset the lack of hit %. It was more "luck based" than anything else. When the bear got consistent hits, damage was very impressive. When the hit % failed, things could fall apart pretty quickly. Needless to say, fort bears tended to dominate bear vs bear fights. It was also useful in PvE for tanking, while the dodge was missed, the high survivability made this in its era the best set for pure tanking and when Nuri's Hallows was introduced, was the only set that could initially (before the nerf) offer some protection against one hit ko procs.
Conclusions
If you want to see this thread modified, I am open to the idea of modifying it to make it into something new.
In any event, it might be useful in the future. My new revision has already been incorporated into my main thread here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?122775-Game-mechanics-and-equipment-a-thread-to-reform-PL-and-re-establish-class-balance
Equipment Changes
Let me ask you a question, what would make a perfect set for each type - str, dex, and int? Well, let me define perfect. Perfect would mean:
1. Useful in a group of 5 in a PvE environment
2. Relatively well balance in the context of PvP combat
3. Has a role to play in a CTF game
4. Conforms to the "lore" of the game
Well, what do we have? Essentially we have
1. Str based tank sets (used by all classes)
2. Dex based single target sets (used by all classes)
3. Int based AOE damage sets (used mainly by int mages)
Within those classes, we have sub types, one hand and two hand, and melee vs ranged.
Current situation
Well, looking at the pure classes, we'd have:
Str - sword and shield (the sword and shield are used for tanking mostly)
Dex - bow and crossbow (used by all classes, esp dex bird and dex ranger, for which the daggers don't do as much skill damage)
Int - wand and bracer or staff (used mostly by mages - I think like the 2h swords, staffs need a buff in damage output)
The big issue that I think everyone cares about the most is the equipment used most. The str shield/sword, the dex crossbow, the dex bow, the int staff, and the int wand/bracer.
From a damage standpoint, the str 2 handed swords, the dex wing/talon, and the daggers (and dual daggers) are not widely used. I will discuss in another thread what I feel could make these useful, but right now I would like to focus on the ones above. Skill damage you see is not as heavily based upon the base damage of the weapon, but rather the amount of int/dex/str that your toon has.
Let me take my post from 2011, and substantially modify it.
Int
Int mages today (circa 76 tier) face a pretty big challenge. They're attacks are heavily dodged. With the dodge changes I propose above, it should make int sets much more viable. But that's not enough. They're underpowered, completely inviable in endgame PvP, and arguably suboptimal in PvE without elixirs.
The Sets
To begin with, the demonic glyph wand set was pretty close to an ideal mage set (slightly lower mana regen and too much wasted in useless health regen) as possible, while the demonic glyph staff set was far from ideal.
Images unbuffed:
Thanks to Awwmang for briefly lending me his wand set
45730
45731
Buffed:
45732
45733
Stats
Unbuffed:
Demonic Glyph Staff Min Max Average
Ice Storm 230 326 278
Frostbite 318 377 347.5
Fire Blast 354 476 415
Lightning 338 480 409
Drain Life 384 539 461.5
Main Weapon 249 272 260.5; weapon speed adjustment 236.8181818
Demonic Glyph Wand Min Max Average
Ice Storm 186 285 235.5
Frostbite 276 337 306.5
Fire Blast 313 439 376
Lightning 296 443 369.5
Drain Life 343 502 422.5
Main Weapon 206 251 228.5
Difference (staff / int) average
Staff/Wand
Ice Storm 1.180467091
Frostbite 1.133768352
Fire Blast 1.103723404
Lightning 1.106901218
Drain Life 1.092307692
Main Weapon 1.036403422
On average, we are looking at about 10% more power on the staff set, which translates into a bit more once enemy armor is factored in. Buffed numbers are just 9%.
In return for just 10% more damage, the staff set is sacrificing 46 armor, 1% crit, 4% dodge, and 5M/S. Needless to say, in PvP in a 1v1, staff almost always lost versus wand. This was not the case in the Mega Mage days, where staff and wand could beat each other roughly evenly.
Factor in the proc and the wand actually does more auto damage than the staff. Wand has a "weakness" re-roll proc while the staff has a burn proc (use with frost bite) and AOE.
By far the most crippling problem on the glyph staff set though was the poor (by mage standards) mana regen of only 25 M/S. The wand set could also benefit from a bit more mana regen. The other big issue is that it's mana region per second. You get 25 M/S in this example. The big issue is that mages need their mana regenerating every 0.25s (the GCD). I'd rather have 6.25 mana every 0.25s (far more critical).
Compared to its enchanted and mega mage counterparts, the staff set offered a minimal increase in protection, a decrease compared to MM in mana regen, only a paltry increase in base damage, but a noticeable increase in crit.
Compared to its 55 counterparts, the wand set offered an improvement in everything except mana regen: base damage and crit were up, along with armor and dodge
Results:
- Wand int mage was OP for PvP
- Staff int mage was decent for group fights, but underpowered for 1v1 (weak vs warbird and str bear; very low chance of winning a staff vs wand fight against another int mage)
For your reference, heal on the staff and wand sets:
Staff
Heal 141-289; Average 215
Wand
Heal 145-296; Average 220.5
Heal is only affected by how much int you have and how many points you have in heal (all mages should max heal by the end game). Wand will have slightly higher as it has more int.
So what would make a perfect int set?
Well, to begin with, each of the 3 classes when using their core sets has one nearly useless stat that equipment almost always buffs:
- Int mages: H/S is worthless on staff set; high armor on the wand set makes it somewhat useful, although the points would be much better expended in mana regen or base damage
- Dex birds: Hit % is worthless; pure dex birds already have 100% hit and focus only adds to their hit % even more
- Str bears: M/S is worthless; bear skills do not devour much mana; 8M/S is overkill in fact
Edit:
Sets should be designed for their core classes first. For example, in the int section, we are not discussing how to design the ultimate int bird or int bear set. That said, I have devoted a significant proportion of this thread to discussing the 3 classes with str and dex builds, since they are widely used. However, I always believe that the core class is first, for example, an ideal str set should not be designed for pallies at the expense of bears (which happened with fury; although it later worked out because fortified proved to be a pretty good set for bear).
Why H/S is less useful on a mage:
Suppose we have 2 targets. Both have 50 H/S. Suppose one is a mage with 0% dodge (in practice they will usually have single digits), and a bear with 50% dodge (bears can get higher than this). The mage has 100 armor and the bear 200.
Now imagine if we have 4 hits of 300 damage per second over a period of 4s.
For mage:
Damage sustained:
Damage per hit:
300 - 100 = 200
Damage taken
200 x 4 = 800
Less damage healed
800 - 50 x 4 = 600
For bear
Damage per hit:
300 - 200 = 100
Damage taken
100 x 4 = 400
Times dodge
400 x (1 - 0.5) = 200
Less damage healed
200 - 50 x 4 = 0
Assuming that it was the first 2 shots that hit, in which case the bear would sustain zero damage. If the 2nd and 3rd shot hit (or 2nd and 4th), the bear would be less 50 hp. If the 3rd and 4th shots hit, the bear would have lost 100 hp. If that were a pure int mage, 600 hp would mean that unless the mage healed, they would be dead.
The reason is because when dodge and armor are taken into account, H/S is very ineffective on a mage. Seeing that enemies hit in excess of 200 damage in Nuri and in PvP, with a staff, you'd probably be dead before you could take advantage of the health regen by much. I have not even factored in that mages can heal! It may be useful on a wand mage, but it would be far better expended in armor in that case.
I suppose in the Sewers, where enemies only hit 30 damage per hit, H/S may have been moderately useful, but in Nuri, the numbers tell me otherwise. A lot of players I find tend to suffer from the "placebo effect" thinking that H/S makes a life-or-death difference - it does not as the numbers show.
In my opinion, all experienced int mages should use staff in PvE, due to the superior damage output, except when fighting bosses with a PUG (to avoid aggro). The damage output is noticeable. Only novice mages who have difficulties keeping themselves alive throughout Nuri should stick with wand. One exception may be levels where it doesn't matter if you kill enemies and survivability is crucial (Nuri's madness).
The Perfect Int Set
What would make a perfect int mage set?
To begin with, there should be a wand and a staff, just like always before.
- Very high base damage (highest in the game)
- 40%+ crit unbuffed; crit in the current Glyph sets is good
- At least 40 M/S of mana regen (maybe more) - remember at 0.25s intervals (so 10 mana every 0.25s)
- Some hit % for when you are debuffed (happens a lot in PvP and sometimes as well in PvE; some mobs DO debuff) - go for ~140%ish hit
- Massive boost to the int stat (for extra base damage and to make heal high)
- Some armor, but fairly low dodge (say 12-13%, so 1 in 8 shots are dodged, low enough to be insignificant, but high enough to make a tactical difference)
- Nice to have would be a mana reserve (kind of like the 50 mana reserve that enchanted staff set gave); optional though for game balance
- Staff, given the loss in survivability should be 20-25% more powerful in damage output on average than wand to justify the loss. To do this, I propose doubling the amount of int on all staffs currently for future endgame tiers, creating an angel staff, and giving it double the int of the sum total of the current angel wand and bracer. In exchange, it would have no armor, so basically you're getting 20-25% more damage (instead of the 9-10% damage) but for roughly a 20-25% loss in survivability. This seems like a fair trade-off to me. The 9% (as I showed earlier was not a fair trade-off). For a 25% loss in survivability, you gain a meager 9% more in firepower.
- Keep the current procs. Wand should be a darkbolt with weakness and staff should be a fire staff with AOE and burn.
Weaknesses of this set:
- Poor survivability, especially for staff.
- Small amount of armor increase (compared to demonic glyph) and low dodge
I have deliberately left weaknesses in the interests of game balance and to keep the difficulty high. Note the omission of H/S. Note that as it stands, the Angel set is not bad. Neither is the Lilith Crafted set.
Dex
Dex birds have changed significantly since the images below - if possible I would like to see a 76 dex bird image in the top end set (please PM me or post in this thread if you have one).
Note that this section right now is a work in progress.
Dex bird, circa level 61 cap (see attachments):
Unbuffed
2602
Buffed
2603
Dex damage output (pure dex):
Blast shot 414 - 435
Avian Scream 293 - 338
Repulse 341 - 361
Blinding Shot 319 - 383
Main Weapon 261 - 273
It doesn't say how much break armor does, but I would guess it is similar to these values. The roots both do damage over time, with thorn root doing the greater single damage.
Note these ranges between the minimum and maximum are much more narrow compared to the int values. There is no difference between buffed and unbuffed values as unlike rage and blessings of might, focus does not add damage.
My Commentary
The performance of dex birds and dex rangers seems to heavily depend on the level. There are some levels they do very well and others that they seem to have issues. Dex rangers will prefer
On the whole though, they are pretty decent.
Advantages:
- Good single target damage
- Good burst damage (important in PvP)
- High dodge when buffed
- Low standard deviation of attacks
Weaknesses:
- Poor armor if they get hit
Specifically for the Vixen, it was originally intended to be a melee class. The issue is that the daggers do not do as much skill damage. I am open to the idea of improving daggers to make them more viable (who wouldn't want to see a dual wielding class?). The issue is that although their dps looks good, daggers really don't offer the skill damage needed to be viable.
The Perfect Dex Set
To begin with, instead of a dagger and an auto a return to the 50 (blaster/sunblessed bow) or 55 (auto/recurve) where there is one set that does a lot of damage with a 10m range and a second which does less damage in return for long range would be ideal. Base damage is the only thing that should be different, although for balance, perhaps the 10m set should have better crit. Daggers are not very effective, even with the high armor on a dex build because they have to close to close range so auto damage although it looks good on paper, is vastly reduced.
- Highest crit of any set in game (same amount of crit as custom before would be ideal)
- Highest weapons damage in game (which dex builds have always had and always will)
- High base damage (around 10% increase compared to the demonic obedience; will be less than int though)
- High H/S (H/S is useful on bird because bird heal is not as good as mage heal, because of the bird's dodge, and because birds can stay at a distance if they wish)
- Moderate amount of mana regen (somewhere between custom and the glyph 60 sets would be ideal); I think most dex players would trade more damage for mana. Birds have meditate, bears don't need a lot of mana, and mages, as I will explain below, won't be too adversely affected.
- Moderate amount of armor
- A bit of dodge for good measure (not too much as this would unbalance the game)
- Notice that hit % is not mentioned in this; in both PvP and PvE, even when hit with a debuff, they should still have enough hit %; I suppose only a low amount of hit is needed; optional
- Also note that I did not say "massive boost to dex stat"; crit would be far more valuable than more dex (for int mages, base damage matters more)
Weaknesses:
- Poor survivability, although I expect that due to evade, it will be better than int sets. Plus, with a longer range (auto) and higher weapon muzzle velocity, dex sets can stay at range if needed and allow the tanks in their parties to absorb the worst of it.
Near perfect sets:
- Custom Recurve: Could have had slightly higher base damage and a bit more mana regen, but otherwise perfect. In fact, I'd say custom birds were borderline OP. Enchanted and fortified both forced their wearers to make compromises (mana regen), while custom was an improvement in both survivability and damage output (due to the higher crit).
Class Specific Commentary
For dex mages, the raid roach auto bow in the 55 days could be considered near-perfect. The reduced crit was still enough to go over 100 buffed and the higher base damage combined with long range made it a better choice than custom recurve.
For Vixen rangers and bow using dex bears, I think that overall, their requirements are similar to those of the dex bird - the "perfect" dex set above should serve them well. Note that some skills do scale with int (poison needle and poison dart). I still feel that dex is the stronger skill - I need to test this one out.
Expected Results
- Birds should retain their position as damage king and should be more balanced in PvP
- Dex bear will be a more viable build and should not have to use any mana potions whatsoever
- Dex mage will not be too harmed. There will be an adjustment period for dex mages. However, I notice that in the 55 days, the preferred dex mage set, the raid roach auto bow had low mana regen and yet dex mages were still so powerful than there were several threads on the forums (and complaints in game) that dex mages were OP.
- Birds will have to either use a bit more mana potions or put some points in meditation. Dex mages in PvE will need to use more mana potions.
- For PvE, health potions will have to be used liberally by dex birds and dex bears, with a moderate amount by dex mages (whose heal is weaker than int mages).
Str
Str is a bit of a challenge, because the needs of all 5 classes differ. On paper at least, all 5 classes can tank, although I feel that bear, pally, and to a lesser extent str mage are best for PvE (bear due to taunt and pally due to summon - provided of course you have good tanks that know how to use them, which unfortunately is often in short supply). All 5 can be flag carriers though in PvP. One advantage that pallies and str mages have is their ability to revive, which combined with a str based build makes them hard to kill in this regard.
The strength level 66 set was pretty solid. It represented a huge step forward over the fury and fortified predecessors. I think that one of the flaws of the Angel and latter was that it had too much dodge, leading to a luck-based PvP system.
Note: I am looking for a warbird, str bear, and pally for pictures for this thread.
Results:
- Bears were vastly more potent than their 55 predecessors and for 60 pvp were balanced (underpowered IMO for 55 pvp), and a good set for PvE
- Pally received an impressive gain in damage output and for the first time since rift were able to get some kills (in the fury days, being a pally meant that others would "steal" all your kills); reasonably balanced
- Warbirds became the most OP build in 60 PvP. No real weaknesses in PvP. The only build that gave them difficulties were pallies. Traditionally, in a dex bird vs warbird fight, all other things being equal, we could expect a dex bird to win. With the strongman's set, this was no longer the case. They were also quite powerful against int and dex mages just like before, and no longer lost to bears (which they often lost to in the fortified days due to running out of mana). There have been accusations (and IMO with some justification) that warbird needed no skill. I wouldn't say "no skill", but less skill.
I recommend that for pure PvE, mages and birds opt for a damage dealing (int mage and dex bird) build instead.
The ideal str set
- Highest armor of any set in the game
- Highest dodge of and set in the game (although not too high for balance purposes; actually the amount of dodge on strongmans is ideal; carry this amount forward)
- Highest health regen of any set in the game (recall my post on H/S mages ... by contrast, H/S is very useful on a str build).
- Moderate amount of hit % (not too high though for game balance)
- A small buff to base damage (not too high for game balance)
- Perhaps a health reserve from set bonus like the one fortified had (optional for game balance purposes)
- A boost to str is optional; it does increase health reserves, but not as important; more survivability would be better
This set should serve tanking bears, warbirds, rhinos, and perhaps tanking rangers well. They don't need much mana regen.
Note that in CTF, this set is a flag capture oriented build. You probably will not get 1 to 1 K/D ratio against good players, but that's not your job. Your job is the flag person.
Modifications for classes
Str mages have slightly different requirements. They need mana more so than other str classes. Pallies have a mana shield. Mana regen. Bears don't need much, nor warbirds, or rangers. They need like 6 M/S, while with bird and pally, it is more like 16 m/s. Bears would prefer more survivability over mana. For pallies, mana IS life (especially with shield on). Birds need it. I think that the ideal set is going to have to have high mana regen. The solution? I recommend that instead of a 2h longsword (that was very rarely ever used), that we have 2 1h weapons. One 1h weapon will have high mana regen. The other 1h weapon will have high health regen with low mana regen. The other 3 pieces (helmet, plate, and shield) can then have low mana regen.
Another issue is that right now, sometimes Rhino seems to struggle with PvP (I need more experience to confirm this one), outside of CTF flag capturing.
Near Perfect Sets:
- In other words, the level 66 set already comes to the ideal set already. Just buff every characteristic except dodge (for balance) and mana regen (which could actually be reduced in favor of more armor) and it's all good.
- For bears, apart from the low dodge and lack of hit%, the fortified set was otherwise perfect. The low mana regen on fortified was no weakness for str bears. The high base damage somewhat offset the lack of hit %. It was more "luck based" than anything else. When the bear got consistent hits, damage was very impressive. When the hit % failed, things could fall apart pretty quickly. Needless to say, fort bears tended to dominate bear vs bear fights. It was also useful in PvE for tanking, while the dodge was missed, the high survivability made this in its era the best set for pure tanking and when Nuri's Hallows was introduced, was the only set that could initially (before the nerf) offer some protection against one hit ko procs.
Conclusions
If you want to see this thread modified, I am open to the idea of modifying it to make it into something new.