Lightning vs aimed shot

[phillyr]

Ok, first ill start by saying I'm not asking for a rogue nerf or a mage buff, I just want someone to explain to me how aimed shot does more damage than lightning on crit when lightning does an extra 250% dmg every time it hits with crit. I'm full mythic mage with runic flare as weapon and my lightning says it does up to 979 dmg without crit. If someone could help me wrap my head around this I would appreciate it. Thanks a bunch and MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

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[FluffNStuff]

Because if that wasn't the case, rogue would be useless, no one would play the class, the economy would collapse and the game would be boring.

Sometimes things exist for a logical reason. Other times, well, they exist because it would be illogical without them.

[Trenton]

Considering AS also does 250% extra dmg on crit.. why wouldn't it

[Solid]

So u want rogues aimed
and MAGE SHIELD
AND MAGE HEAL?

[phillyr]

No...calm down people lol I don't know rogue class at all I'm not asking for change...AS IT SAYS IN MY OPENING STATEMENT. I'm just trying to figure out why something with less base damage(from what I hear) does more damage than another skill with higher bass damage

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[phillyr]

So u want rogues aimed
and MAGE SHIELD
AND MAGE HEAL?

Chill bro...casual conversation here...

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[phillyr]

From what I hear from other players the numbers don't make sense to me and I just wanna wrap my head around it...I don't know what the background skill points for rogues skills are, so I'm hoping someone could shed some light on the subject for me...that's all...trying to feed my curiosity

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[FluffNStuff]

My point. No logical reason. Every rogue that walks in to this topic will argue that it should because of x y and z. Every Mage will argue it should not because of a b and c. But it does. Why? Because if it didn't the game would collapse. Same reason a Warriors plate has higher armor. Different class, different calculations.

[falmear]

Aimed shot has an armor debuff of 15%. And I believe this is applied before damage is calculated on the first aimed shot. A while ago I did this comparison:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out

I haven't gone back and retested with and without this armor debuff to see how much difference in damage this truly gives. But aimed shot will always give more damage then lightning with this upgrade. And its particularly harmful to mages since we already have extremely low armor. So we have 30% less armor then a rogue + 15% debuffed, so when a rogue hits you with aimed its like having 45% less armor then a rogue. So this is one reason but I also don't believe its the only explanation. Also I am not entirely sure if it stacks from the same or difference sources. In the end it really doesn't matter because its been this way for so long its not going to change. Whatever the reason is aimed shot is > then lightning. Despite having some similarities. Anyone that's not happy with playing a mage, I suggest you stop playing a mage and create a rogue.

[phillyr]

Aimed shot has an armor debuff of 15%. And I believe this is applied before damage is calculated on the first aimed shot. A while ago I did this comparison:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?116400-Lightning-vs-Aimed-Shot-shoot-out

I haven't gone back and retested with and without this armor debuff to see how much difference in damage this truly gives. But aimed shot will always give more damage then lightning with this upgrade. And its particularly harmful to mages since we already have extremely low armor. So we have 30% less armor then a rogue + 15% debuffed, so when a rogue hits you with aimed its like having 45% less armor then a rogue. So this is one reason but I also don't believe its the only explanation. Also I am not entirely sure if it stacks from the same or difference sources. In the end it really doesn't matter because its been this way for so long its not going to change. Whatever the reason is aimed shot is > then lightning. Despite having some similarities. Anyone that's not happy with playing a mage, I suggest you stop playing a mage and create a rogue.

Thank u falmer, u have eased my mind lol, did not know they had armor debuff, makes more sense now

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[phillyr]

My point. No logical reason. Every rogue that walks in to this topic will argue that it should because of x y and z. Every Mage will argue it should not because of a b and c. But it does. Why? Because if it didn't the game would collapse. Same reason a Warriors plate has higher armor. Different class, different calculations.

Math is math, same calculations no matter the class, just different factors. As falmer explains it reduces armor, which makes total sense as to why it does more damage than a skill with higher damage without the armor debuff. They are not gonna make up fake numbers just to make one class seem more appealing than it should be LOL. I have no argument, was just wondering the reason is all. I've only ever played as mage so it's all I really know. Yea warriors gear has higher armor, that's a fact. But lightning has more damage than aimed shot, so I was wondering how aimed does more damage. It was explained and I feel much better about it. There's different factors that let that skill have more damage than normally possible. Again...not complaining about how "OP rogues are", or "weak mages are" just curious is all.

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[phillyr]

Considering AS also does 250% extra dmg on crit.. why wouldn't it

Because it has less base damage to add 250% to...but other factors were explained. Thanks for input

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[Zeus]

Math is math, same calculations no matter the class, just different factors. As falmer explains it reduces armor, which makes total sense as to why it does more damage than a skill with higher damage without the armor debuff. They are not gonna make up fake numbers just to make one class seem more appealing than it should be LOL. I have no argument, was just wondering the reason is all. I've only ever played as mage so it's all I really know. Yea warriors gear has higher armor, that's a fact. But lightning has more damage than aimed shot, so I was wondering how aimed does more damage. It was explained and I feel much better about it. There's different factors that let that skill have more damage than normally possible. Again...not complaining about how "OP rogues are", or "weak mages are" just curious is all.


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Fluff knows the reasoning, as he's spoken to me about it months before in game. He just didn't want to explain it because than sorcerers would be like: "Why can't we get this!?".

It's literally our only counter, besides packs.

[phillyr]

I figured he did...he seems educated enough reading some of his other posts...all I wanted was an explanation...if he didn't wanna give it to me, he didn't have to type nonsense lol. I am just trying to educate myself on other classes. The why's and the why nots. It's an awesome skill, I'm not drooling over it tho lol I am not asking for changes nor have I complained about anything. I'm a total noob at mmorpg so I tried to ask a reasonable question to figure out why instead of being frustrated about it...getting some nice helpful answers from some. Which I totally appreciate. Thanks guys/ladies for your help. The only reason I started this post is because when I ask anybody I know they don't know, so I try to ask in other posts and didn't ever get an answer. Asked some randoms I get "deal with it" "that's just how it is" "mage sucks that's why" lol

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[Roberto077]

From what I hear from other players the numbers don't make sense to me and I just wanna wrap my head around it...I don't know what the background skill points for rogues skills are, so I'm hoping someone could shed some light on the subject for me...that's all...trying to feed my curiosity

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Each succesful AS increases the rogues damage by 10% along with the 250% crit damage. If you hit a few in a row then the base damage would be +30% and the crit damage remaining at 250% damage. Plus (if I'm not mistaken) the rogues have an ability that increases their crit chance for a duration and shadow piercer has an armor debuff which will increase any damage dealt.

[phillyr]

Makes sense now, I just couldn't understand how I see two arrows and 3600 health is gone lol but all the stuff I wasn't aware of make sense of the difference of damage output at critical hits between the two. Thanks a bunch guys, good luck pve or pvp whichever u find yourself in

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[bhutkeyur]

Guys even without armor debuff and stacking aimed shot dmg+crit, its really hit hard than lighting. Tried it in few bosses. My first aimed shot crit did 5000+(charged). I dont think leg gear player lighting does that much of dmg.

[phillyr]

Guys even without armor debuff and stacking aimed shot dmg+crit, its really hit hard than lighting. Tried it in few bosses. My first aimed shot crit did 5000+(charged). I dont think leg gear player lighting does that much of dmg.

Nope, I'm a mythic mage and my crit lightning in elite usually hits from 1900-2500, with hammerjaw stat boost lol

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[Soundlesskill]

Lol maybe because mage class is meant for more support than rouge.
Rouges are full on dmg.

Lol this is ridiculous!

[Desperoto]

Every class have their op skills, if mage had high crits, he would have 3 (Light, Fire, Shield) Stun, less damage and high crit
Rogue- Aimed shot
Warrior- Heal

[Rare]

I think most people are missing the point. Obviously there is some part of the equation we don't know. So unless we hear it from the developers, if will just have to be as fluff said.

[phillyr]

Lol maybe because mage class is meant for more support than rouge.
Rouges are full on dmg.

Lol this is ridiculous!

Devs have said multiple times mage is not meant to be a support class

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[Soundlesskill]

Devs have said multiple times mage is not meant to be a support class

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So its meant to be the second rouge? Critting just as high just with a lot of mana? No.

[phillyr]

No...don't think I ever said that should be the case...did u even read anybody's posts?

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[phillyr]

So its meant to be the second rouge? Critting just as high just with a lot of mana? No.

I AM NOT COMPLAINING AS I HAVE STATED MULTIPLE TIMES! JUST TRYING TO HAVE A FRIENDLY DISCUSSION ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE IN SKILLS BETWEEN THE TWO. y u guys getting so defensive over a question? I understand it's the best skill u got, and don't want it nerfed...that's not what this topic it's about. I don't think it should be

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[FluffNStuff]

Devs have said multiple times mage is not meant to be a support class

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Mage is the ballista class. They put out the most TOTAL damage (damage * number of enemies affected).

Rogue is the single damage class so they are supposed to be able to hit the hardest against a single enemy. Without a powerful aim shot, that would not be the case. Also regarding aim, it is a wide roll. Crits can range from 1000 up to 2500 on the same enemy.

[Zeus]

I think most people are missing the point. Obviously there is some part of the equation we don't know. So unless we hear it from the developers, if will just have to be as fluff said.

I think it's because the armor debuff is put into the equation before the actual damage is done.

Hence, why you can see a rogue with 426 damage crit a 3.5k on a Mage in pvp.

[phillyr]

Yes Zeus the armor debuff explains the damage done. And again lol I am not complaining that rogues do more damage, I just wanted to know why :-P

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[Yakiniku]

Is probably the armor debuff combined with a higher base crit damage modifier for Aimed Shot before the 250% is applied. STS has shown that they can change this at will when they increased mage crit damage a couple of updates ago.

We've never gotten any official confirmation from devs on this, but I'm willing to bet that Aimed Shot (and probably Piercer too) has a much higher crit modifier than Lightning before the 250% is applied. The same probably applies for non crit damage too as shown by Falmear's experiment. The damage number on our stat sheet is misleading because it's just one part of the invisible math that STS keeps a mystery.

I would love to hear from a dev on this, but I doubt that will ever happen.

[gatzoo5505]

All I have to say is if this rumor of an arcane bow is true pvp is gonna go to hell for us mages. Even as a maxxed out arcane mage my screen is screaming red after a well placed aimed shot by a mythic rogue.

[phillyr]

All I have to say is if this rumor of an arcane bow is true pvp is gonna go to hell for us mages. Even as a maxxed out arcane mage my screen is screaming red after a well placed aimed shot by a mythic rogue.

LOL ikr, I am really curious to see what this bow can do, if it is indeed coming out. Most of the new content these guys are pushing out is really neat. Can't wait to see what's in store for the future

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[nukedwolf]

Mages skills are in not really ment to support anyone. The mage class is pure aoe, its ment to take out large mobs. Which I guess in a way is considered support but over all there weaker 1v1 wether its bosses or pvp. They have no real benifits to helping elite bosses aside from the mana regen you get if there a smart player. Not saying the mage is not a viable player though, without that clock and stun, elite would be a nightmare. Every class has a job learn to use it to your adavantage and the world is your oyster. I have 3 end game toon 1 of each class. My rogue locks/pvp, war pvp/elite, my mage farm/elite

On topic- a mages lightning replaces the -15% armor reduction for a +25% chance to stun for 3 sec. This is a big deal using the combo of fire/lightning your looking at a 6 sec down time. Now anyone thats ever pvped in end game can tell you most fights dont last 6 seconds. Now lets look at a few other upgrades comparing the 15% dmg boost on mage compared to the 10% on each successful hit of a rogue. This is a 3 to 2 ratio every 2 hits a mage makes is equal to the boost a rogue in 3 hits the difference is the possibilities of crit. The average rogue has 33% chance to crit meaning 1 in 3 is a crit. Mages on the other hand have roughly a 15% chance to crit 1 in 7. Basically the stun from mages if used right give them a 2 to 1 hit. So basically the theory is w a mage using stun he can achieve 7 hits to a rogues 3. If the mage is goo the can judge when the crit is coming and activate shield which completely cancels the crit hit so now you just went from 1/3 crit to 1/6 crit chance.The key to mage vs rogue is stun vs dmg. If a mage can make it through a rogues 1st cycle of skills it will most likely win they just need to play both offensive and defensive

Basically in a 6 sec fight a mage can deal 4.5k of dmg in 4 hit where as the rogue deals 5000 4 hits. The difference is the probability of stun/shield negating 1 rogues hit making it mage has 4 hits dealing 4.5k and a rogue 3hits dealing 3.75k dmg. Hope this some what helps

[falmear]

25% chance to stun is useless on lightning. Because stun from fireball is 100%. Then they get 6 seconds of stun immunity. If you have this upgrade you wasted one skill point. IMO in PvE & PvP the other 2 upgrades to lightning are a waste of time (shock & electrical discharge). Also to clarify this mage are a support class, I suggest you read this:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?115865-2013-09-12-Content-Update-(129730)&p=1263221&viewfull=1#post1263221


That was never the intended role of the Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is supposed to be AOE Damage with some control. We don't want a dedicated support character. These are steps in that direction. Crit is just becoming the Sorcerers 'thing'. Rogues will be looked at as well and have something different. Not going to just do the same update on the Rogues as I do on the Sorcerer, then their powercurve moves up equally, just leaving the warrior behind.

[Robhawk]

Another "thing" that keeps us mages down:

1. Shield is totally bugged! You call charged shield and it just doesnt apply! There is no cancel, no enemy shooting - shield broken -> gg! The rogue kills you in a single combo...

2. Fireball is messed up for some days (as allready pointed out by a lot of players). So you open the fight with a charged fireball to stun the rogue and... oh... where is this fireball gone? Its gone nowhere which means vs good rogue -> ty gg!

So in the worst case your bugged fireball misses and to not instant die u call your bugged shield, which is not happening -> LMAAOOOO !!!

So the 2 most important mage skills are bugged...

@rogues/warriors: Which of your skills dont work? TY!
And btw I dont mean the "if not fully charged, skill doesnt apply bug" Its not that bug its an addition to this one!!! Instead of fixing these things and f.e. the passive damage dont show in profile we get halloween n winter events... niiiiiceee. :offended:

[Soundlesskill]

No...don't think I ever said that should be the case...did u even read anybody's posts?

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No, that's why it wasn't my first comment.


I AM NOT COMPLAINING AS I HAVE STATED MULTIPLE TIMES! JUST TRYING TO HAVE A FRIENDLY DISCUSSION ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE IN SKILLS BETWEEN THE TWO. y u guys getting so defensive over a question? I understand it's the best skill u got, and don't want it nerfed...that's not what this topic it's about. I don't think it should be

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Sorry

[phillyr]

No, that's why it wasn't my first comment.



Sorry

LOL I figured u didn't that's why I said that...there's way too many posts about mad smurfs that insta killed by rogues and want them to be much weaker do they can destroy them... I have participated in some, but have grown a lot since then. The pros and cons to all classes are awesome and suck at the same time. I figure if we were all more informed it will be less frustrating when we get destroyed in pvp lol

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[phillyr]

I just saw falmers forum topic about this...much more in-depth discussion there for any who might be confused still...I wish I would have seen it before I made this one :-P

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