Time For A New Era---Help in the quest to restore PVP

[imxoriginal]

http://i.imgur.com/58HB3bP.png




Dryselvage Said:

"so are bird still worth to play in endgame pvp?

consider there are op behr, pally savage mage that dominate endgame pvp,

are birds still able to compete with those op classes? like 1vs1?

and what is the best bird build to compete with those? full dex? or what?

gimme ur opinion.."

Arcanus Said:

"It makes your loyal customers feel like, "Wow, the games that got them here are not loved by ST'G'.""



Rot Said:

"The problem is, no matter what we suggest, they hardly even bother with it. Yes, they might be reading this, but I seriously doubt that any actions will be taken.

Their attitude to PL players : If you don't like the game, quit playing it and get a life.
Their attitude to AL players : Hi sir, how can I help you? Oh, thanks for reminding us, it'll be fixed in 2 days. Remember to buy more plat!"

WhoIsThis said:

"Balance wise, it would not be. Str bears would destroy int mages and dex birds." in reply to Xyzther's statement: "I think it would be cool to make an endgame tourney in a 5v5 ctf one of each class, can only use class specific armor"


WhoIsThis also said:

"Essentially, we have created an environment where well, skill is no longer relevant. Knowing when to hit the right skill is no longer an issue (assuming an elixir free environment; with elixirs, there's no point in skill as well because each toon is super-buffed). Instead it's all about the random number generator and whether each shot is a hit or a miss."


Bless said:

"Mages are weak bears are overpowered and birds are forgotten about."


OneLeft said:

"Bears have too much hit and damage, it is unfair. On top of that talon birds have too much dodge and armor for the damage output they deliver!"

Utaca said:

"Pocket Legends used to be a game that was fun, balanced and took skill. Now it is about the class that you pick. Once they took the skill out, they took the fun out."



Iamtla said:

"People do more damage in one skill than they have health."


Crash said:

"Sets are op, period."

AngelDawn said:

"I would like to see STS follow through on the balance of PVP that they originally started."

Shiloo Said:

"The nerf to crit was a great start. Now let's fix the rest!!!!!!"

OneScaryMage said:

"Practically, mages and birds need an increase bears need a decrease!"

Flacs said:


"I also want to share some experience by playing at this cap. Recently me and Apollo practiced 1Vs1 - bear fights. Bear fights about who dodging Heallscream and Crippling slash.

Bird fights purely about dodge, any burd who using elite phoenix set is more tanky than a bear, sometimes makes impossible to kill a bird with other classes. I just every day see dodge-streaks, like 15-20 skills dodged.

Bears cant really kill birds if they hit blinding shot, only unless blinding shot is dodged. That also makes almost impossible to defeat any phoenix set bird with a savage bear.

Mages are completely fail as int, they get killed by one or two hits by a bird, also cant kill any savage bear, cuz bears damage is also so op.

This cap everyone is pro because of all these insane dodges and luck."



It is very obvious that everyone who participates in any sort of player vs. player activity in pocket legends that there is indeed a lot of imbalanced features. I will be breaking down this thread in a couple sections. The first section will consist of, "What needs to be changed". In this section I will talk about the many things that causes a throw off of unbalanced classes in pocket legends. I will also be breaking each class individually into five sections starting with birds. A great way to get another understanding of this problem is to check out WhoIsThis' thread. It has everything in it that I will be addressing as well as adding to what he said. (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?122775-Game-mechanics-and-equipment-a-thread-to-reform-PL-and-re-establish-class-balance)





What needs to be corrected!

I will be breaking this section down into what things need to be fixed in pocket legends. This section will included sets, skills, and possibly more.


First thing on the agenda is hit percentage. To fix this we MUST look at everything that is effected by it and fix the overall hit. There is no need for any class to have their hit over 100%. Let's break down some numbers here.
Example 1: A 76 bird uses blind shot against a mage who has 153 hit %. If the debuff hits their hit goes down to 93%. In conclusion, 93% of the mages shot will land. There is virtually almost no point in having a debuff skill like this if it does nothing.
Example 2: A 76 bird with level 8 blindshot hits another bird with 185 hit % and their hit % goes down to 125%. Like the mage this does nothing to the bird.
This examples can go on for every other class. Sets should not make your base hit go higher than 100%. Total conclusion is that base hit% should NOT go over 100%. Ever.

Like we know, with every action there is a reaction. While hit is decreased, debuffs need to go under the same construction. If sts fixed hit%, we cannot have a blind shot doing -60% hit decrease when a class is at 100% hit. It would make for long fights and disadvantages to who hits the debuff first.

The next thing that should be looked at when correcting the pvp imbalances is dodge. At this point the dodge for most characters is completely out of hand. A bear with a savage set at level 76 in capture the flag has the capability to walk across the entire map to return the flag with three other players attacking the bear. How does this happen? Well, that answer is simple a 3 piece bear with an egg has 85 dodge when fully buffed. Now, this value is hard to understand. It is not labeled as a percentage. I am assuming it is out of 100 and for arguments sake I will treat this variable as a percentage. This being said, a bear has an 85% chance to dodge each skill you press. This dodge is not only unfair, it requires no skill. ALL luck based! The same thing applies with pallys at endgame. There dodge from the savage set is all ridiculous and makes them the second best class to play in pvp for endgame.

Another key thing to look at is increasing health. Later on I will be adding some suggestions. Hopefully with the help of the community feedback.

Now that we have the top things that are wrong with pvp lets take a look at the three sets at endgame.
First set up is savage.
Savage Dragon Master Armor
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 90 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Helmet
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 67 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Scythe
Stats: 234-254 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 19 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Buckler
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 79 Armor

This set gives a total of 413 dps for a buffed pally with this set equipped. Now think about this number. This means every skill that is pressed by the pally will hit anywhere between 100's- upper 300's when armor is calculated in. The same thing goes for bears. Their damage output against a bird for slashes hit in the upper 200's. Not to mention that their beckon stomp is an instakill for anything that is pure dex. Overall, the damage for savage sets is extremely overpowered.

The next set up is the swift set:
Swift Dragon Master Armor
Stats: 42 Dex, 12% Hit, 9% Crit, 4 H/s, 3 Mana, 5 M/s, 28 Damage, 81 Armor

Swift Dragon Master Helmet
Stats: 42 Dex, 12% Hit, 9% Crit, 4 H/s, 3 Mana, 5 M/s, 28 Damage, 60 Armor

Bow of the Phoenix
Stats: 263-303 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 42 Dex, 1% Dodge, 9% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 2 Mana, 5 M/s, 32 Armor

As WhoIsThis stated in his thread the main problem with this set can be improved by doing the following: "I propose giving the dex set some dodge. Say, 3% worth of dodge per piece of crafted 75 gear and bumping up the dodge on the Bow of the Phoenix to 5%. This is a net increase of 10% dodge."
This proposal is a perfect way to get birds back into the fight and not be at the low end of the stick.


Next set is the fiery set:
Fiery Dragon Master Armor
Stats: 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 27 Damage, 83 Armor

Fiery Dragon Master Helmet
Stats: 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 27 Damage, 48 Armor

Fiery Dragon Master Scepter
Stats: 162-192 Damage, 1.0 Speed, 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 11 Armor

Fiery Dragon Master Eye
Stats: 42 Int, 6% Hit, 12% Crit, 5 H/s, 6 Mana, 6 M/s, 27 Damage, 71 Armor

In my opinion there are three things that need to be done to fix the int mage set. First thing is to increase the armor. Without a m/s an int mage is helpless. There is nothing they can do besides hopefully hitting fire and getting a lucky dodge in. They need the extra armor on this set for a fair surviving ratio. The next thing they need is more crit. My suggestion is to slightly raise the crit 3-8% more. Lastly, int mages need more dodge to their set. Since mages have no dodge buff, a few more dodge will not only be fair, but is what needs to be done when competing against the other op classes in pvp.



http://i.imgur.com/ySV2YVr.png
At this moment in time in my honest opinion, birds are where they should be. Birds have the capability to kill each class and other classes can kill them. The only problem is the high damage. This is particularity evident at 66+. Bird vs. bird becomes a luck battle where whoever dodges blast first wins. The only way to fix this problem would be by reducing damage on sets. However, by doing this it brings up the question of Pve. In my opinion, this would be good for pve too. Believe it or not, there was a time when there were no such thing as elixirs and it actually took team work to defeat levels (this is when i had the most fun farming). A 76 bird with elite swift set plus 3 piece ring has a total of 551 DPS. What this translates to is one skill plus an auto shot from the bow to kill another bird (an example would be blast shot + auto). One thing that should be changed about bird is their hit. They have a total of 210% with talon set, which is kind of ridiculous.

There is an easy solution to this problem. STS can make two different sets for each pve and pvp. For pve they can keep all the stats of the current sets as they are. This means they have to do absolutely nothing. That means for the savage set, swift set, and the fiery set can all remain the same. If a player has the pve version of the set equipped they will not be able to enter the arena or ctf areas. Now many people are probably thinking now, WOW if this happens I would have to buy two sets, i aint dat rich imxoriginal!!! Here's what else sts can incorporate. As everyone also knows sts made dragon sets craftable into rings which turns into vanities after you craft them. Sts can incorporate a new npc in balefort castle, lets name him Greed for right now. Player A has a swift master dragon helm elite bow swift master dragon armor in his inventory and is interested in pvp. He goes to the npc named greed and talks to him. The following conversation will occur: "Welcome!!! Here's the deal- I can help you craft your endgame set into a pvp killing machine! These variations are not tradeable. Once you craft this set you will receive the pvp version!" Once you craft the set you will be given your set back along with the pvp version. Unlike the dragon rings these will not become vanities. They will remain pinks in your regular inventory. You would have two sets. The first set would be labeled for pve( PVE-SWIFT DRAGON MASTER HELM, ETC) the second set would be labeled (PVP-SWIFT DRAGON MASTER HELM, ETC). You would still be able to trade the pve version of the set for multiple character convince, but you would not be able to use the pvp version if the pve set is not in your inv.

Now this would be a long process of coding every set for the npc. What sts could do would be a set a week till they get it all done. Please let me know what you think of the above mentioned idea and what else I can add to this system. We are onto the next class. The bear.


http://i.imgur.com/K2Q7Vq7.png
Currently, bears are the most overpowered class in pocket legends pvp. Let's take a look at the endgame savage set that bears currently use.
Savage Dragon Master Armor
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 90 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Helmet
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 67 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Scythe
Stats: 234-254 Damage, 0.9 Speed, 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 19 Armor

Savage Dragon Master Buckler
Stats: 42 Str, 7% Dodge, 5% Crit, 9 Health, 6 H/s, 5 M/s, 22 Damage, 79 Armor
With their high damage and crazy dodge it makes them almost unstoppable. To keep this short and sweet a great way to fix this is to do the following:
Nerf their damage
Reduce their dodge
Increase their hit
This, along with the idea mentioned earlier might be a way to fix some of the unbalanced features of this game. Another way to go about this is to fix the skill points. There is no need to have 9 skill points. Just make the max 6!!!! By reducing damage taken it calculates to prolonged fights which = more fun plus more skill.



http://i.imgur.com/AojeEug.png
If this is your class I am sorry to say but if you are at endgame and you're an int mage, you're pretty much toast against pallys, bears, and some birds. Good way to fix is to do a couple things:
increase armor of the fiery set
decrease mana shield cool down slightly
increase crit slightly
If you have any experience at endgame you highly ever see pallys. Now that we mentioned pallys let us talk about the problems with them. Pallys strength and overpowered capabilities comes from the savage set. It is nothing wrong with the mage class itself that makes them overpowered. The problem is the high damage output of savage plus the high dodge. The only way to properly fix this problem is if the dev took into account making major changes to the sets and possibly making pvp and pve sets with a new crafting system. Now that we have properly addressed the problems of mages, let us take a look at a newly developed class, the fox.
http://i.imgur.com/8Yii8RX.png

It is hard for me to tell if this class is underpowered. Currently at endgame, foxes easily take down anything that is mostly dex in a couple hits. But, they are basically helpless in killing anything else.. Especially strength classes. Currently will be adding more details and statistics tomorrow about this. Feel free to post or pm suggestions.

Next class is the Rhino:
http://i.imgur.com/GLUWMbu.png
Tanks... What I have noticed with rhinos is that there damage is too low. The reason they are able to take out dex and int mages easily is because of the high damage of savage. I propose the damage of rhinos to be increased and their health increased slightly. Again, I do not have a lot of experience with rhinos and would appreciate if people could propose more suggestions to help balance this class.
The following is an awesome suggestion from Shadowstar:
"Rhinos, I have already said some on this matter, but I'll explain a bit further.
1. Why can't they beat str chars?
Well they can't, they don't have reliable debuffs. And I do know they dont kill, but at least make them be able to kill something other than dex chars and int mages. They can't beat savage chars because their dodge debuff totally sucks, -18 dodge lvl 9 Summon is a fail debuff. So if you want to beat other str chars, it should be something like -dmg or something. Or even boost the dodge debuff itself and make it way more higher. Or possible armor debuff, although in the current situation, armor barely counts anymore.
The holy tempest, which is a dmg skill and debuff, doesn't even debuff -hit much, rather, its chance to do it at a certain %. Needs to be higher % and higher -hit.

2. Boost base health to 500.
Yeah yeah, I'm crazy. Putting rhinos health to 500. But if you think about it, a char thats supposed to be str based has lower health than a dex and int based char is weird. Wat. In return for boosting health, the armor buffs could go down a bit.

3. More dodge.
Wow, did I just say that? Yep I did. Brute force needs to have more dodge, since its only thing it can be used for (other than 5 armor..pfff) its 10 dodge at lvl 9. WAT. Guardian doesn't need more dodge, IMO a skill that acts as a second heal and gives you armor is awesome. But if Brute force gave more dodge, wouldn't rhino be OP with savage? Hm, ANOTHER reason to Nerf savages dodge."





OVERCAP!
If you took the time to read this it will become clear to you that pvp is severely broken in pocket legends. Hopefully, with the feedback from the community on this thread I will be able to change some things around to make everything fair and equal. This thread is NOT intended to become a flame war. Everyone who posts on here should post constructive feedback to changes, suggestions, or their overall opinion on this thread.

As well as the community responding positively, I would also request that the developers also respond in a constructive way. I am and along with many other are very interested in hearing good news that they will do something about this. I do NOT WANT this thread to turn out to this one...http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?114961-PL-Balance-after-the-Great-Nerf-of-2013 along with this one http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?112724-Your-Top-Three-Things-that-Need-Fixin%92-in-PL
Do not get me wrong, I greatly appreciate justg trying to balance out things, especially with how busy they are. But they abandoned the balacing and left pl pvp still in terrible condition. The time is now to act. Help us restore pl pvp back to where we all know and love it.
NOW along with other things mentioned, I do also know that this thread was mostly focused on endgame pvp. I am well aware of problems at twinking levels. I will hopefully be able to address this in a future thread.
I would also like to give special thanks to Angeldawn, shiloo, cheen, iamtla, and many others for helping with questions I had, plus making their own suggestions.

[VVake]

Nicely put together only problem is. If they did PvP&PvE sets everyone would craft their set then just sell their PvE version since they PvP 95% of the time.

[imxoriginal]

Nicely put together only problem is. If they did PvP&PvE sets everyone would craft their set then just sell their PvE version since they PvP 95% of the time.
I did say in there how to fix that problem.


You would still be able to trade the pve version of the set for multiple character convince, but you would not be able to use the pvp version if the pve set is not in your inv.

[Rushorgtfo]

Hey ! Rushorgtfo here or iamtla whatever my name is. I can't give this thread more of a thumbs up as it deserves. Depriving us from a new cap is probably a good thing or else everyone would be hitting 700-900. Skill rank increase was the biggest reason for a imbalanced game. This needs to be fixed.

[imxoriginal]

Hey ! Rushorgtfo here or iamtla whatever my name is. I can't give this thread more of a thumbs up as it deserves. Depriving us from a new cap is probably a good thing or else everyone would be hitting 700-900. Skill rank increase was the biggest reason for a imbalanced game. This needs to be fixed.
Thanks dude. And thanks for the help you gave me and suggestions.

[ThePvpTwink]

Stg nerfed the stats and skills too much. Now birds have too low dodge and ages too low crit while not much changed to bears.

Not much skill is even required anymore...since at endgame most main skills areal ready maxed to 9

I support most of your proposals, but lower levels and twinking need to be fixed as well

[Rushorgtfo]

Of course. Been playing this game ever sense it came out :) (ignore my forum date it's a sec acc) downloaded the game while drunk almost 4 years ago upcoming in April and haven't regretted it yet! Maybe lol. It's just a shame to see such a fun game becoming ruined over imbalance.

[imxoriginal]

Stg nerfed the stats and skills too much. Now birds have too low dodge and ages too low crit while not much changed to bears.

Not much skill is even required anymore...since at endgame most main skills areal ready maxed to 9

I support most of your proposals, but lower levels and twinking need to be fixed as well
Yeah I did state that at the overcap. I just need more time to write about the twinkling levels.

[Crashy]

Well done putting the whole thread together bro!
And.... I Totally agree with crash and flacs!

[Booked]

Hopefully this will make a change for endgame pvp, also could like that changes will be tested.

[Whirlzap]

A word on INT mages.

Increasing Mana Shield duration does not help effectively in PvP- it definitely merits an advantage in PvE though.
But since we are talking about PvP, the only possible changes I see that actually boost Mana Shield's potency is a higher armor buff or lower cooldown time.
Having a longer duration for MS doesn't apply when most mages end up getting their mana drained from a bear combo or simply have their shield blasted by a bird.
The better solution as suggested is to increase the armor of Fiery and decrease the damage output of bears.

To be honest, the skills for mage are not what needs improving, at least not at endgame; it's simply that mage's INT endgame set ultimately loses out against all other forms of combat in endgame PvP.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

Of course. Been playing this game ever sense it came out :) (ignore my forum date it's a sec acc) downloaded the game while drunk almost 4 years ago upcoming in April and haven't regretted it yet! Maybe lol. It's just a shame to see such a fun game becoming ruined over imbalance.

You were drunk at 12? Whoa

[Stevenmc]

Increases in the amount of time a mana shield is active wont do anything when a bear can take down all the mana in a couple auto attacks. This would make us less likely to survive because we wouldn't be able to use our skills like heal for a longer period of time. Mage is fine where it is at, just bring down the other classes to a fair level.

[Roberto077]

You were drunk at 12? Whoa

WAY too much soda

[imxoriginal]

A word on INT mages.

Increasing Mana Shield duration does not help effectively in PvP- it definitely merits an advantage in PvE though.
But since we are talking about PvP, the only possible changes I see that actually boost Mana Shield's potency is a higher armor buff or lower cooldown time.
Having a longer duration for MS doesn't apply when most mages end up getting their mana drained from a bear combo or simply have their shield blasted by a bird.
The better solution as suggested is to increase the armor of Fiery and decrease the damage output of bears.

To be honest, the skills for mage are not what needs improving, at least not at endgame; it's simply that mage's INT endgame set ultimately loses out against all other forms of combat in endgame PvP.

I fixed that section based on what you said. I do agree with that. Thanks for everyone's ideas. Try to keep them coming.

[Argyros]

For rhino-
•Make charge a aoe attack, meaning wherever charge lands, it also hit enemies in a 3m range around you. This would help in FFA as well.
•Greatky buff up brute force, its not even used most of the time.

[Cheenivie]

Good job putting it together!

[ReligionIsABarrier]

PvP at low levels is already destroyed, if they nerf any more skills birds an mages will hit rock bottom even further. I miss birds. Everything gets nerfed because of whiners. I completely agree with your thread. 15-22 bears complained about 16-20 dodge birds, just because someone could finally actually compete with them. Shows the intense opness of the bears an alot of selfishness? Yeh. Maybe STS will actually show the game the got them somewhere some attention, or maybe they will ignore us like the past year. I say sell PL to another company, maybe they will actually care about us? Lol.

[Rushorgtfo]

You were drunk at 12? Whoa


No lol 13 going on 14. Still bad but just bad peers don't judge shh.

[Jig]

Reading some really good stuff here, keep it up guys ! And have faith'

[Caiahar]

Rhinos damage needs to be boosted, but lower health? Isn't their base health, 400, while bears is 600? They could have a decrease in stone skin, the armor buff, and brute force needs to be boosted..level 9 gives 10% dodge and 5 armor (1 dodge every level) as well as summon, -12 dodge and useless -h/p at 6, -18 dodge at 9. Wat. Summon could be changed into a good debuff, like -armor or -dmg. Now that I think about, rhinos only real attacks are their combo (charge redemption) and tempest ._. Needs moar attacks. Might is only for stun :/
Tempest gives too little -hit debuff IMO. -30 hit, but only 45% chance lvl 6 (idk the lvl 9 one), so no wonder fights against bears are almost unwinnable in endgame :/ (bears have -60 hit hs :O and waay more dmg AND health) rhino cant debuff fo its lyfe.

[Rushorgtfo]

Skill level needs to be decreases to a maximum of at least 7 and sets rebalances before actually changing skills themselves.

[Crashy]

I agree with flacs as he mentions when it's bears vs birds, the birds seem more tanky with all those dodge going on compared to a bear.
Bear.bird
It's pretty tough to even hit or touch the bird if their blind shot hits and they continue to dodge. And on top of that they can kite.
Though I'm not saying bear aren't op... Maybe just that we're over exaggerating on bears being op just a tiny little bit?

[Gragorak]

Well written, thanks for a good read.


increase armor of the fiery set
decrease mana shield cool down slightly
increase crit slightly
Full int fiery mage with crit face has already 91 crit while buffed. Increasing it wouldn't really help full int mages, it would just make pallies even more OP than what they are now. IMO, fiery set should have better defensive stats. Currently it has 3 dodge, 219 armor, 26 h/s, 30 m/s. I'd boost dodge up to 7 (same as what sand goddess set has) and boost other defensive stats by 10%, so that they would be 241 armor, 29 h/s, 33 m/s.

Many people say that fox and rhino are underpowered classes, but I don't buy that. I don't have either of those classes at end game yet (soon I have), but I've seen them in pvp and I've PvPed with them a lot in 61-71 level range. They are amazing in ctf, and fox is good in 1v1 fights too if played correctly. However, bandage should be able to free from stuns/roots/ice if ranked 5+ (this would encourage different builds in twinking too) and level 5+ hypnotize should be aoe skill. Its description says it is aoe, but it really isn't. I don't think that rhino's damage should be boosted. Its meant to be tank/support, not tank/support/nuke-them-all!!!!.

End game pvp is also too luckbased now. Skills should be returned to level 6. To prevent everyone having exactly same builds, some sort of passive skill system (like in AL) should be implemented.

[Everyone'sFavMage]

No lol 13 going on 14. Still bad but just bad peers don't judge shh.

STill, I didn't have my first hangover till I was 17

[angeldawn]

Thanks for your hard work and putting it together. It would be nice to see what all the community has to say since the first steps of the nerf was done. It would be great if we could all agree in a few items and have that the next target for STS to complete.

[imxoriginal]

Well written, thanks for a good read.


Full int fiery mage with crit face has already 91 crit while buffed. Increasing it wouldn't really help full int mages, it would just make pallies even more OP than what they are now. IMO, fiery set should have better defensive stats. Currently it has 3 dodge, 219 armor, 26 h/s, 30 m/s. I'd boost dodge up to 7 (same as what sand goddess set has) and boost other defensive stats by 10%, so that they would be 241 armor, 29 h/s, 33 m/s.

Many people say that fox and rhino are underpowered classes, but I don't buy that. I don't have either of those classes at end game yet (soon I have), but I've seen them in pvp and I've PvPed with them a lot in 61-71 level range. They are amazing in ctf, and fox is good in 1v1 fights too if played correctly. However, bandage should be able to free from stuns/roots/ice if ranked 5+ (this would encourage different builds in twinking too) and level 5+ hypnotize should be aoe skill. Its description says it is aoe, but it really isn't. I don't think that rhino's damage should be boosted. Its meant to be tank/support, not tank/support/nuke-them-all!!!!.

End game pvp is also too luckbased now. Skills should be returned to level 6. To prevent everyone having exactly same builds, some sort of passive skill system (like in AL) should be implemented.

I agree with what you stated. I'll add your portion in when I get home. Hopefully with the correct community feedback we can expect a developer to answer.

[imxoriginal]

Thanks for your hard work and putting it together. It would be nice to see what all the community has to say since the first steps of the nerf was done. It would be great if we could all agree in a few items and have that the next target for STS to complete.

Thanks angel. And yeah hopefully something will be done.


Rhinos damage needs to be boosted, but lower health? Isn't their base health, 400, while bears is 600? They could have a decrease in stone skin, the armor buff, and brute force needs to be boosted..level 9 gives 10% dodge and 5 armor (1 dodge every level) as well as summon, -12 dodge and useless -h/p at 6, -18 dodge at 9. Wat. Summon could be changed into a good debuff, like -armor or -dmg. Now that I think about, rhinos only real attacks are their combo (charge redemption) and tempest ._. Needs moar attacks. Might is only for stun :/
Tempest gives too little -hit debuff IMO. -30 hit, but only 45% chance lvl 6 (idk the lvl 9 one), so no wonder fights against bears are almost unwinnable in endgame :/ (bears have -60 hit hs :O and waay more dmg AND health) rhino cant debuff fo its lyfe.

I will be adding sections of this once I get home. Very good insight. Please keep the posts coming.

[Marcoolio]

Only i can say, really good job this far..hope this make some changes. Been pally just so boring and only reason is bears..but now back int and hope best.

[Multibird]

Instead of lowering classes, imo, specifically nerf savage set, and lower dodge on all sets.

[XghostzX]

Nice Imox, after talking to you in game I'm glad you put this together. It reminds me of the one thread I made with putting together all the quotes, but you took it a step further by making it look nicer and adding viable solutions. Great work :)

[SillyJuan]

This is what Pl needs. Someone to finally speak out with pure facts! Awesome.

[imxoriginal]

Nice Imox, after talking to you in game I'm glad you put this together. It reminds me of the one thread I made with putting together all the quotes, but you took it a step further by making it look nicer and adding viable solutions. Great work :)
Thanks will :)




This is what Pl needs. Someone to finally speak out with pure facts! Awesome.
Thanks for your feedback! :)

[Caiahar]

Birds right now are fine IMO, its just the set that needs nerfing and some of their skills.
Bears, too much dodge, because first, they already have 2 dodge skills. At level 9. Which gives some good dodge. But savage has lots of dodge too, giving bear INSANE dodge, as well as making other classes (pallys and stuff) OP as well. Bears are supposed to dodge yes, but the level 9 buffs and savage dodge is just way too much.
Mages themselves are okay I guess, but the fiery set is just too underpowered compared to the 2 other sets. Bird does what, blast root blind repulse and BOOM mages are dead, alive if they're lucky.

Foxes are IMO good. They can't beat str chars, because of savage, another reason to Nerf savages dodge. Fox just needs a skill to get out of stun, frost, or root. They already do, but Evade does it. I mean, its their BUFF, they cast it first. Its like making a bears iron blood or evasion only do that. So their bandage should get them out.

Rhinos, I have already said some on this matter, but I'll explain a bit further.
1. Why can't they beat str chars?
Well they can't, they don't have reliable debuffs. And I do know they dont kill, but at least make them be able to kill something other than dex chars and int mages. They can't beat savage chars because their dodge debuff totally sucks, -18 dodge lvl 9 Summon is a fail debuff. So if you want to beat other str chars, it should be something like -dmg or something. Or even boost the dodge debuff itself and make it way more higher. Or possible armor debuff, although in the current situation, armor barely counts anymore.
The holy tempest, which is a dmg skill and debuff, doesn't even debuff -hit much, rather, its chance to do it at a certain %. Needs to be higher % and higher -hit.

2. Boost base health to 500.
Yeah yeah, I'm crazy. Putting rhinos health to 500. But if you think about it, a char thats supposed to be str based has lower health than a dex and int based char is weird. Wat. In return for boosting health, the armor buffs could go down a bit.

3. More dodge.
Wow, did I just say that? Yep I did. Brute force needs to have more dodge, since its only thing it can be used for (other than 5 armor..pfff) its 10 dodge at lvl 9. WAT. Guardian doesn't need more dodge, IMO a skill that acts as a second heal and gives you armor is awesome. But if Brute force gave more dodge, wouldn't rhino be OP with savage? Hm, ANOTHER reason to Nerf savages dodge.

I can't think of much anymore, but when I do, ill post.

[Rushorgtfo]

Damage can reach 600-700 .. Why is health still 500? Base health never changed sense pvp came out 35 cap yet every other stat has... Wonder why it's so unbalanced?

[Schnitzel]

i have to say:
Nice font on the part that said "birds bears mages foxes rhinos"

Eventhough i just skimmed through this thread, i think those are great ideas

[imxoriginal]

Birds right now are fine IMO, its just the set that needs nerfing and some of their skills.
Bears, too much dodge, because first, they already have 2 dodge skills. At level 9. Which gives some good dodge. But savage has lots of dodge too, giving bear INSANE dodge, as well as making other classes (pallys and stuff) OP as well. Bears are supposed to dodge yes, but the level 9 buffs and savage dodge is just way too much.
Mages themselves are okay I guess, but the fiery set is just too underpowered compared to the 2 other sets. Bird does what, blast root blind repulse and BOOM mages are dead, alive if they're lucky.

Foxes are IMO good. They can't beat str chars, because of savage, another reason to Nerf savages dodge. Fox just needs a skill to get out of stun, frost, or root. They already do, but Evade does it. I mean, its their BUFF, they cast it first. Its like making a bears iron blood or evasion only do that. So their bandage should get them out.

Rhinos, I have already said some on this matter, but I'll explain a bit further.
1. Why can't they beat str chars?
Well they can't, they don't have reliable debuffs. And I do know they dont kill, but at least make them be able to kill something other than dex chars and int mages. They can't beat savage chars because their dodge debuff totally sucks, -18 dodge lvl 9 Summon is a fail debuff. So if you want to beat other str chars, it should be something like -dmg or something. Or even boost the dodge debuff itself and make it way more higher. Or possible armor debuff, although in the current situation, armor barely counts anymore.
The holy tempest, which is a dmg skill and debuff, doesn't even debuff -hit much, rather, its chance to do it at a certain %. Needs to be higher % and higher -hit.

2. Boost base health to 500.
Yeah yeah, I'm crazy. Putting rhinos health to 500. But if you think about it, a char thats supposed to be str based has lower health than a dex and int based char is weird. Wat. In return for boosting health, the armor buffs could go down a bit.

3. More dodge.
Wow, did I just say that? Yep I did. Brute force needs to have more dodge, since its only thing it can be used for (other than 5 armor..pfff) its 10 dodge at lvl 9. WAT. Guardian doesn't need more dodge, IMO a skill that acts as a second heal and gives you armor is awesome. But if Brute force gave more dodge, wouldn't rhino be OP with savage? Hm, ANOTHER reason to Nerf savages dodge.

I can't think of much anymore, but when I do, ill post.

Thanks for taking the time to write that shadow. I took the time to add that to the thread under the "Rhinos" section. Everyone, stuff like what shadow said are the sort of feedback I am looking for. I am doing this so they developers have it easy as possible to work with balancing. For example, if we provide them with the exact specifics on what has to be changed we can potentially be looking at a fix to pvp. This thread is going to take sometime to develop fully. We all want this perfect. We need a plan that will not only fix our pvp situation, but will also work in future caps (if there are any). I would love to hear from anyone in game, through private messages, or even through skype about this dilemma. You can catch me in game on, Tank 76 bird. Just send me a pm and I'll add you.

[Reunegade]

I have an idea, make health 10x the amount now.

1. It doesn't take that much effort for StG,
2. Even if a class dodge haxes, it doesn't matter as much because now it takes 1-2 combos (bird v bird) instead of 1-2 skills,
3. And if possible, make bears taunt skill give 300 health (stacked 600) instead of the dodge, and give evade 750 health,
4. Separates the skilled and the weak

[Crashy]

All we can do is hope for STS to read this.
Maybe start their own thread for more suggestions.
And make PVP changes ASAP!
/Small changes from time to time, continuing to improve the pvp balance/set balance would also be great.
I hope STS will read Imxoriginal's awesome thread. And apply the changes in PL for pvp/ctf soon.

[imxoriginal]

I have an idea, make health 10x the amount now.

1. It doesn't take that much effort for StG,
2. Even if a class dodge haxes, it doesn't matter as much because now it takes 1-2 combos (bird v bird) instead of 1-2 skills,
3. And if possible, make bears taunt skill give 300 health (stacked 600) instead of the dodge, and give evade 750 health,
4. Separates the skilled and the weak
Isn't all that doing is creating extremely LONG fights for bears vs bears?? We would still have the problem of op damage? Plus bears would be even more powerful along with pallys. Unless, they fixed sets. I could then see how this might apply. Although the numbers might need to be tweaked a little.

[Jig]

I have an idea, make health 10x the amount now.

1. It doesn't take that much effort for StG,
2. Even if a class dodge haxes, it doesn't matter as much because now it takes 1-2 combos (bird v bird) instead of 1-2 skills,
3. And if possible, make bears taunt skill give 300 health (stacked 600) instead of the dodge, and give evade 750 health,
4. Separates the skilled and the weak

WOAH taunt 300 HEALTH!! they have a crap load of DODGE!! And you say use a taunt buff to add (300!!!!!!!)) WOW bears are the op class atm and you say give them that? No thanks give them nothing unless reduce there dodge about 25-30% and give maybe 150-200 more health or whatever

[Reunegade]

WOAH taunt 300 HEALTH!! they have a crap load of DODGE!! And you say use a taunt buff to add (300!!!!!!!)) WOW bears are the op class atm and you say give them that? No thanks give them nothing unless reduce there dodge about 25-30% and give maybe 150-200 more health or whatever
"instead of the dodge"

[Caiahar]

"instead of the dodge"

I think I'll have to disagree with this...
Reasons: If what you said happens, and savage does get nerfed in the dodge n dmg..guess what? Bears will barely
have dodge.
Only reason I'm saying this is because bears are a str based char, who are supposed to dodge, hence the two dodge buffs. Yes, the dodge they have buffed in savage is way too much, but I think the better way to approach this situations is by nerfing the dodge buffs (or decrease in the skill cap) and nerfing savage dodge. That way, bears CAN dodge, but not as OP.
Basically, bears do need the dodge, so taking away the dodge and putting more health in the buffs, along with savages wont help.


All for one, and one for all.

[Zeus]

I rarely post in the PL section these days, but I did play around with PL after the nerf settled in.

I personally think that the following changes should be made:

• Debuffs should hit 100% of the time, regardless of dodge however, the amount that a debuff debuffs stats by should be reduced. Note: If your hit is below 100%, the debuff can miss.
• There should be an increased PvP global damage nerf. I believe Asommers already put the algorithm into PvP a long time ago, so the only thing that would be needed is to increase the amount of damage reduced in that algorithm.
• Critical hits should have a way to be debuffed. In AL, this exists so classes like rogue which can stack crit cannot be running with 70%+ crit all the time. There is a check in order to maintain balance. PL, however, doesn't have that.

This way, the savage set doesn't need to be nerfed because debuffs can land 100% of the time, provided that your hit percent is above 100. What this does is take the luck factor out of the equation and instead makes one rely on their skill and timing of landing the debuffs first.

If I think of more later, I will. Right now, my brain is numb from advanced calculus.

[Isopure]

Have eliminating elite rings from pvp ever be considered? Probably not since most use the excuses such as "I earned this". Well I'm not arguing that fact but 3 piece and dragon is a contributing factor to being OP. the sets and chances of dodge and all others mentioned by the original poster are correct. People who have the 3 piece are indeed at a greater advantage and the imbalance is partially due to the difference in the stats they have vs a regular player. Sets should be looked at for sure but let's take a look at the increase of stats the 3 piece rings give and see if it's still fair.

[Jig]

Sounds good to me, devs come on! Tbh devs have attempted to fix pvp a few times now and hasn't completely cleared it up, I still have a little faith left in pl, you made this game, you finish it.

[Jig]

Have eliminating elite rings from pvp ever be considered? Probably not since most use the excuses such as "I earned this". Well I'm not arguing that fact but 3 piece and dragon is a contributing factor to being OP. the sets and chances of dodge and all others mentioned by the original poster are correct. People who have the 3 piece are indeed at a greater advantage and the imbalance is partially due to the difference in the stats they have vs a regular player. Sets should be looked at for sure but let's take a look at the increase of stats the 3 piece rings give and see if it's still fair.

Don't bring that up now, please... We need to focus on besides that right now.. Also, get a dragon set, that helps doesn't it?

[Isopure]

Sounds good to me, devs come on! Tbh devs have attempted to fix pvp a few times now and hasn't completely cleared it up, I still have a little faith left in pl, you made this game, you finish it.

Haven't you heard the news? They made brand new updates to graphics for pl! It's called AL! Sams words not mine.

[Jig]

Haven't you heard the news? They made brand new updates to graphics for pl! It's called AL! Sams words not mine.

Hmmmm, I did just delete PL^^ might get back into Al lol, you won sam! You won -_-

[Isopure]

Don't bring that up now, please... We need to focus on besides that right now.. Also, get a dragon set, that helps doesn't it?

You'd think it does but I can show you my stats vs 3 ring bears. 60+ hp 12+ armor 6+ dodge and hit sure do contribute to the fairness factor. Like I said they earned it for sure but if we are going to get down to the TRUE fairness then the stats the rings and egg give can not be ignored.

[Jig]

I cant disagree with you mate... But they shouldn't be focusing on that right now :/

[Whirlzap]

Birds right now are fine IMO, its just the set that needs nerfing and some of their skills.
Bears, too much dodge, because first, they already have 2 dodge skills. At level 9. Which gives some good dodge. But savage has lots of dodge too, giving bear INSANE dodge, as well as making other classes (pallys and stuff) OP as well. Bears are supposed to dodge yes, but the level 9 buffs and savage dodge is just way too much.
Mages themselves are okay I guess, but the fiery set is just too underpowered compared to the 2 other sets. Bird does what, blast root blind repulse and BOOM mages are dead, alive if they're lucky.

Foxes are IMO good. They can't beat str chars, because of savage, another reason to Nerf savages dodge. Fox just needs a skill to get out of stun, frost, or root. They already do, but Evade does it. I mean, its their BUFF, they cast it first. Its like making a bears iron blood or evasion only do that. So their bandage should get them out.

Rhinos, I have already said some on this matter, but I'll explain a bit further.
1. Why can't they beat str chars?
Well they can't, they don't have reliable debuffs. And I do know they dont kill, but at least make them be able to kill something other than dex chars and int mages. They can't beat savage chars because their dodge debuff totally sucks, -18 dodge lvl 9 Summon is a fail debuff. So if you want to beat other str chars, it should be something like -dmg or something. Or even boost the dodge debuff itself and make it way more higher. Or possible armor debuff, although in the current situation, armor barely counts anymore.
The holy tempest, which is a dmg skill and debuff, doesn't even debuff -hit much, rather, its chance to do it at a certain %. Needs to be higher % and higher -hit.

2. Boost base health to 500.
Yeah yeah, I'm crazy. Putting rhinos health to 500. But if you think about it, a char thats supposed to be str based has lower health than a dex and int based char is weird. Wat. In return for boosting health, the armor buffs could go down a bit.

3. More dodge.
Wow, did I just say that? Yep I did. Brute force needs to have more dodge, since its only thing it can be used for (other than 5 armor..pfff) its 10 dodge at lvl 9. WAT. Guardian doesn't need more dodge, IMO a skill that acts as a second heal and gives you armor is awesome. But if Brute force gave more dodge, wouldn't rhino be OP with savage? Hm, ANOTHER reason to Nerf savages dodge.

I can't think of much anymore, but when I do, ill post.

These are all some nice suggestions, and I hate to be the Devil's Advocate here, but we should not forget about PvE.
It seems the general majority of players at endgame these days need that extra tanking ability that comes with Savage Set to survive at endgame, especially on all classes except Bird. BSM is considered a difficult dungeon to do in comparison to all previous dungeons (assuming no elixirs).
The best solution here would be to nerf stats only in PvP for given sets, as in PvE, all the OP-ness of a STR set is much appreciated by newer and less experienced players. If you think about it, these powerful endgame sets might be the reason for the influx of players who don't just quit after hitting 75/76- they want to play around with their sets for fun.

The best solution would be to nerf stats only in PvP, but that requires a lot of code, according to Developers.

[angeldawn]

These are all some nice suggestions, and I hate to be the Devil's Advocate here, but we should not forget about PvE.
It seems the general majority of players at endgame these days need that extra tanking ability that comes with Savage Set to survive at endgame, especially on all classes except Bird. BSM is considered a difficult dungeon to do in comparison to all previous dungeons (assuming no elixirs).
The best solution here would be to nerf stats only in PvP for given sets, as in PvE, all the OP-ness of a STR set is much appreciated by newer and less experienced players. If you think about it, these powerful endgame sets might be the reason for the influx of players who don't just quit after hitting 75/76- they want to play around with their sets for fun.

The best solution would be to nerf stats only in PvP, but that requires a lot of code, according to Developers.

I disagree.

Ppl need to learn to play as a team and learn their toons.


In PVP and PVE, a tank's weapon should not have more damage than a mage's. It simple logic. The damage needs to be nerfed then health or armor could have a slight increase.

[imxoriginal]

Haven't you heard the news? They made brand new updates to graphics for pl! It's called AL! Sams words not mine.
First of all I said on my thread this isn't a flame thread. So I'm going to ask you to please stop posting on how "bad" pl is. Sts has developed this game for a long time, and to my personally I think they have far over passed their stay. So for people to start saying they should sell their game, is absolutely ridiculous. Are there a lot of things that sts does that I don't agree with? Yes... But suggesting we should get them to sell pl? How do you think that makes them feel? They have feelings toward this game, a lot of feelings. So if you want the devs to respond to this thread, why don't some of you show some respect. This is suppose to be a discussion and hopefully solution to pvp, not something to bash the devs about.

[Isopure]

First of all I said on my thread this isn't a flame thread. So I'm going to ask you to please stop posting on how "bad" pl is. Sts has developed this game for a long time, and to my personally I think they have far over passed their stay. So for people to start saying they should sell their game, is absolutely ridiculous. Are there a lot of things that sts does that I don't agree with? Yes... But suggesting we should get them to sell pl? How do you think that makes them feel? They have feelings toward this game, a lot of feelings. So if you want the devs to respond to this thread, why don't some of you show some respect. This is suppose to be a discussion and hopefully solution to pvp, not something to bash the devs about.


First of all where exactly did I say pl is bad? I don't recall posting that. I could do a response where I can further prove you wrong but I won't here. If you must insist on calling me out feel free to take it to my thread titled "just keeping it real guys" because Id love to continue further.

I apologize to the original poster for the off topicness, and aledged disrespectful behavior.

[imxoriginal]

First of all where exactly did I say pl is bad? I don't recall posting that. I could do a response where I can further prove you wrong but I won't here. If you must insist on calling me out feel free to take it to my thread titled "just keeping it real guys" because Id love to continue further.

I apologize to the original poster for the off topicness, and aledged disrespectful behavior.

Thanks for apologizing. Let's just end it at that. Keep the suggestions coming guys. I'm going to do a finalized copy once everyone contributed with their ideas.

[Rushorgtfo]

Ahh fix pvp or not idk. It's been what a year lvl 76 cap has been out? A huge reason they can't put out a new cap is because pvp will just get worse with 900 skill damage lol. Before a new cap a complete revamp is nessesary. People need to take an account of money wise this does cost STG money they pay their employees. No company will pay employees to work on something for a long time that won't profit as much as say AL would. Interest of the public majority Right now it's AL. However if spacetime maybe worked on pl revamp this whole time as a side project I would imagine by a year it would be done but obviously that's not the case. I don't think spacetime will be picking up pocket legends any time soon however I'm a full supporter of pocket legends and wish it was fixed.

[imxoriginal]

Ahh fix pvp or not idk. It's been what a year lvl 76 cap has been out? A huge reason they can't put out a new cap is because pvp will just get worse with 900 skill damage lol. Before a new cap a complete revamp is nessesary. People need to take an account of money wise this does cost STG money they pay their employees. No company will pay employees to work on something for a long time that won't profit as much as say AL would. Interest of the public majority Right now it's AL. However if spacetime maybe worked on pl revamp this whole time as a side project I would imagine by a year it would be done but obviously that's not the case. I don't think spacetime will be picking up pocket legends any time soon however I'm a full supporter of pocket legends and wish it was fixed.

Yeah, well it does look like we gathered a majority of the peoples data. I will find a time this weekend to compile it all to finalize the thread. Hopefully, we can expect a dev response by Monday.

[Crashy]

Bump^
For the great amount of time and effort imxoriginal has worked on this.

[Elitephonix]

I believe it's not the characters. I think it's the sets. End of story.

[Azataso]

Why are int mages so under rated? :(

and

Have eliminating elite rings from pvp ever be considered? Probably not since most use the excuses such as "I earned this". Well I'm not arguing that fact but 3 piece and dragon is a contributing factor to being OP. the sets and chances of dodge and all others mentioned by the original poster are correct. People who have the 3 piece are indeed at a greater advantage and the imbalance is partially due to the difference in the stats they have vs a regular player. Sets should be looked at for sure but let's take a look at the increase of stats the 3 piece rings give and see if it's still fair.

The rings are rewards, if you take that away, then we have nothing to show for how dedicated to this game we are

[Crashy]

I believe it's not the characters. I think it's the sets. End of story.

Oh ya.
My quote.
Crash-sets are op, period.
And maybe reduce the skill down to 6/7

[Sheugokin]

TBH, who cares if it takes a lot of code. I mean, if they end up doing the "long" code maybe it will be worth it. More people might start playing again. Pvp might be more interesting, and in the end STG will benefit. So please, give us a chance to prove to you guys that we are worth your time and effort and money. Thanks

[Isopure]

Why are int mages so under rated? :(

and


The rings are rewards, if you take that away, then we have nothing to show for how dedicated to this game we are

Yes I understand they are rewards to dedicated players. All those who've earned them should be rewarded somehow. But if you want to start talking about making things more fair and balanced you can't just overlook those stats. If we want TRUE fairness and balance then like I said, they can't be ignored. And I'm not suggesting you take the, away completely but maybe you allow them for pve. Or if sts created a new pvp category that could control if the use of rings would be allowed. All I'm saying yes the sets are unbalanced, over powered and under powered making them unbalanced but the 3 piece rings also contribute to the unbalance.

[imxoriginal]

I believe it's not the characters. I think it's the sets. End of story.
Not end of story really. Still have the problem of extreme hit%, dodge that will keep going up if max skill points also continue to rise in a future cap(if there is one), as well as problems of debuffs.

[XghostzX]

Not end of story really. Still have the problem of extreme hit%, dodge that will keep going up if max skill points also continue to rise in a future cap(if there is one), as well as problems of debuffs.

I agree with phonix on sets, but there could be minor tweakings for normal classes without sets.

[Waug]

I agree with flacs as he mentions when it's bears vs birds, the birds seem more tanky with all those dodge going on compared to a bear.
Bear.bird
It's pretty tough to even hit or touch the bird if their blind shot hits and they continue to dodge. And on top of that they can kite.
Though I'm not saying bear aren't op... Maybe just that we're over exaggerating on bears being op just a tiny little bit?

lel flacs said that b4 any kinda nerf, and still this was an exaggeration.

it's pointless when someone Dodge 7hits outta 10 and becon stomp kill non str birds again its also pointless when someone dodge 5-6 hits outta 10 and heal roots and initial hits and top of that literally 2-3hit kill dex birds.

BEARS EXTRA DODGE IS OP
MAGES DMG IS OP
Birds dodge WAS op

hence the equation devs nerfed only bird's op-ness
the other op-ness factors just kept ruining pvp.

[Jig]

lel flacs said that b4 any kinda nerf, and still this was an exaggeration.

it's pointless when someone Dodge 7hits outta 10 and becon stomp kill non str birds again its also pointless when someone dodge 5-6 hits outta 10 and heal roots and initial hits and top of that literally 2-3hit kill dex birds.

BEARS EXTRA DODGE IS OP
MAGES DMG IS OP
Birds dodge WAS op

hence the equation devs nerfed only bird's op-ness
the other op-ness factors just kept ruining pvp.

Mages dmg is op yes but it only matters if it hits.. versin any str or dex dodges, unless int on int yes its a bit silly now

[Gragorak]

These are all some nice suggestions, and I hate to be the Devil's Advocate here, but we should not forget about PvE.
It seems the general majority of players at endgame these days need that extra tanking ability that comes with Savage Set to survive at endgame, especially on all classes except Bird. BSM is considered a difficult dungeon to do in comparison to all previous dungeons (assuming no elixirs).
BSM might be harder than previous campaigns, but it's still super easy. Compared to every other game I play, PL is by far the most easiest of them all. And yes, normally I don't use elixirs.

PvE should be made more difficult, not easier.


The rings are rewards, if you take that away, then we have nothing to show for how dedicated to this game we are
Old players would still have their super cool vanities to show off. CoP would look cool, even if it didn't give your bear +5 dodge. Previously these extra stats weren't really a problem, everyone was able to get their fancy extra stats just by waiting few months, but now? People have been playing 1.5+ years and are still stuck with their useless dragon rings.

I'm pretty sure that elite rings are one of the reasons why AL is so much more popular than PL.

1. Old, experienced players tend to be more skilled than inexperienced beginners. Even without elite rings, more experienced players would still have an edge since they should be more skilled.
2. With elite rings, old players wreck new players pretty easily.
3. New get annoyed that they don't even have fair chance to compete against more skilled and older players => they quit.
4. These players go play AL instead.
5. Old players come to PL forums to cry about AL and how PL is being neglected.

[Waug]

^ kinda exaggeration considering pve community >> pvp community but still it was enjoyable.


Mages dmg is op yes but it only matters if it hits.. versin any str or dex dodges, unless int on int yes its a bit silly now

opponent dodges doesn't mean mages should one hit kill others, as if dodge getting nerfed, its necessary otherwise, see why pallies delth this much dmg hiding behind str set, mages insense high skill dmg+dmg buff is responsible for this, guess what if a highest dmging class bird(should be) try to hide behind str his dmg would gone down to drain.

[angeldawn]

There are many endgame pros that don't have a 3 pieces ring. The majority of ppl who complain about 3 piece ring being OP are the less skilled ppl. Don't just assume because you are losing its because you don't have a ring, because the person spanking you may not have one either. Work on your skills and dedicate the time like the other players have.

It was known that the elite caps would give stat bonuses and would increase as you got more pieces. This is why many PVPers who hate PVE still chose to spend time capping. Many players also spent lots for cash to get these bonuses you can't just take it away from them because other ppl are jealous they don't have one. These stat bonuses were available to EVERYONE.

Now let's please stop talking about ring like the OP has asked and think about the actual PVP mechanics and how to find solutions as a community.

[Gragorak]

There are many endgame pros that don't have a 3 pieces ring. The majority of ppl who complain about 3 piece ring being OP are the less skilled ppl. Don't just assume because you are losing its because you don't have a ring, because the person spanking you may not have one either. Work on your skills and dedicate the time like the other players have.

It was known that the elite caps would give stat bonuses and would increase as you got more pieces. This is why many PVPers who hate PVE still chose to spend time capping. Many players also spent lots for cash to get these bonuses you can't just take it away from them because other ppl are jealous they don't have one. These stat bonuses were available to EVERYONE.
Personally I don't have any problem with the rings, I'm doing fine without one. Like you said, timing and skill are more important than some rings.

But the thing is, this game is full of casual players. Players who don't play very often and focus on PvE. These players would for sure play some enjoyable CTF matches once in a while, but now the more skilled players with elite rings completely wreck them. PvP isn't fun if you're constantly dying and get one kill every five minutes. Due to this many of those players never PvP. End game PvP community is very concise when majority of end gamers never touch PvP. High percentage of these casual players quit when they can't compete in PvP and have nothing to do in PvE. I don't think it really benefits anyone.

I think that making PvP more even-handed would be beneficial for everyone if PvP and/or PL would become more popular.

There's also a high chance that someone who has played way longer than someone else haven't had the chance get any elite ring, but that "someone else" has a three piece ring. That's slightly paradoxical IMO.

Edit: Sorry for off-topic & thread derailment.

[stricker20000]

BSM might be harder than previous campaigns, but it's still super easy. Compared to every other game I play, PL is by far the most easiest of them all. And yes, normally I don't use elixirs.

PvE should be made more difficult, not easier.


Old players would still have their super cool vanities to show off. CoP would look cool, even if it didn't give your bear +5 dodge. Previously these extra stats weren't really a problem, everyone was able to get their fancy extra stats just by waiting few months, but now? People have been playing 1.5+ years and are still stuck with their useless dragon rings.

I'm pretty sure that elite rings are one of the reasons why AL is so much more popular than PL.

1. Old, experienced players tend to be more skilled than inexperienced beginners. Even without elite rings, more experienced players would still have an edge since they should be more skilled.
2. With elite rings, old players wreck new players pretty easily.
3. New get annoyed that they don't even have fair chance to compete against more skilled and older players => they quit.
4. These players go play AL instead.
5. Old players come to PL forums to cry about AL and how PL is being neglected.

don't forget that the drop rate isn't that good (not to say it sux). so if they make pve more difficult the runs take longer--> you play 10hours until you get diamond

[imxoriginal]

This thread wasn't really made to talk about 3 piece rings. If you take rings away from people there will just be more rage threads more people quitting and more useless, screw sts topics. The issue at hand is imbalanced sets and skills. That is what has to be addressed.

[Ssneakykills]

Great thread bro! I agree on everything you said and the quotes too. Let's just hope a dev can shed some light on the nerf situation and see if yours and the community's suggestions are taken into consideration on the topic of pvp and it's current state. Btw liking people ideas except elite rings should be kept as they are, as they are a challenge for people without rings and doesn't mean they are better then you if they have ring. The main things that need nerfing are I say savage set needs something nerfed but not by a great deal and bears rage buff maybe nerfed a bit too and i like the rhino aoe damage idea too.

#prayforpvpnerf

[Crashy]

Keep up the good discussion on pvp balance.
Hoping a dev will read this soon as I have mentioned the thread by imxoriginal in justg's original pvp thread.

[Sheugokin]

I think it is agreed upon that int sets need to be vamped up. Bird blasts and blinds and dead. Bear combos twice with a bit of slashes, dead.

Don't get me wrong, I love int. TBH, if int becomes more balanced with the other sets, I will switch from pally to int. INT IS SO MUCH FUN LOL.

IMO, those who play int and virtuously get a decent KDR, are those who need to be respected. I see most of these mages in CTF where one can categorized those who are starters and those who are experienced. The hiding, tanking, MS time coordination, heal timing, rev timing, kiting, taunting, anticipation of attacks are part of being "Pro". I myself played int for a while, and bro it is difficult. I got the hang of it with time.

BUT, INT IS SO SQUISHY. Without MS and no luck, you are dead.

Either savage gets nerfed or swift and int sets get a boost.

Players tend to go for the sets that will get them the best KDR, and unfortunately, I am one of them. It is human nature lol. Now, when you join endgame, most of the time you see one or more str characters.

I still have faith in you PL


P.S.: I tried playing AL, not so fond of it. Don't like the stiff camera view, setup, and requirements to equip certain items. It is too Plat based, but that is just me.

[Sheugokin]

Keep up the good discussion on pvp balance.
Hoping a dev will read this soon as I have mentioned the thread by imxoriginal in justg's original pvp thread.

I am sorry to say but it is highly unlikely though. They seem occupied as of right now on the "Something Amazing is coming to AL" whatever that is. Maybe after that. Just my 2 cents.

[Crashy]

Keep up the good discussion on pvp balance.
Hoping a dev will read this soon as I have mentioned the thread by imxoriginal in justg's original pvp thread.

I am sorry to say but it is highly unlikely though. They seem occupied as of right now on the "Something Amazing is coming to AL" whatever that is. Maybe after that. Just my 2 cents.

Don't be so negative.

Stay positive!

[imxoriginal]

Don't be so negative.

Stay positive!

Like the attitudes :D

[Crashy]

Bump.

[Jig]

^ kinda exaggeration considering pve community >> pvp community but still it was enjoyable.



opponent dodges doesn't mean mages should one hit kill others, as if dodge getting nerfed, its necessary otherwise, see why pallies delth this much dmg hiding behind str set, mages insense high skill dmg+dmg buff is responsible for this, guess what if a highest dmging class bird(should be) try to hide behind str his dmg would gone down to drain.

Whatever you think buddy

[Fusionstrike]

In PVP and PVE, a tank's weapon should not have more damage than a mage's. It simple logic. The damage needs to be nerfed then health or armor could have a slight increase.

As I recall, the driving reason that savage set got such relatively high damage compared to other sets was to help tanks get and hold aggro in PvE. So the attempt to make the PvE game work better caused negative consequences for PvP balance. It seems to me that balancing will continue to be an endless loop of tuning things up and down as long as both PvE and PvP are affected by every change. The only hope of restoring sanity to the devs' balancing job I think is to choose one of the proposals to separate a set's PvE and PvP stats.

[Xyzther]

These are all some nice suggestions, and I hate to be the Devil's Advocate here, but we should not forget about PvE.
It seems the general majority of players at endgame these days need that extra tanking ability that comes with Savage Set to survive at endgame, especially on all classes except Bird. BSM is considered a difficult dungeon to do in comparison to all previous dungeons (assuming no elixirs).
The best solution here would be to nerf stats only in PvP for given sets, as in PvE, all the OP-ness of a STR set is much appreciated by newer and less experienced players. If you think about it, these powerful endgame sets might be the reason for the influx of players who don't just quit after hitting 75/76- they want to play around with their sets for fun.

The best solution would be to nerf stats only in PvP, but that requires a lot of code, according to Developers.

No no no.... If I can solo elite red dragon without savage then others should be able to casually do magma fields or dragons nest without it

[Jig]

No no no.... If I can solo elite red dragon without savage then others should be able to casually do magma fields or dragons nest without it

You.... soloed elite red dragin with swift set...??

[imxoriginal]

You.... soloed elite red dragin with swift set...??
chrome potion glitch

[Crashy]

^BES

[Jig]

chrome potion glitch

Wow I totally forgot about that one >.<

[Xyzther]

Yep I need savage to solo without glitch :/ but in most pve maps you get to use potions

[Argyros]

Yep I need savage to solo without glitch :/ but in most pve maps you get to use potions

Idk think u can solo elite red dragon without pots, even as a savage bird...

[Xyzther]

Idk think u can solo elite red dragon without pots, even as a savage bird...

I used Mage

[Azataso]

Old players would still have their super cool vanities to show off. CoP would look cool, even if it didn't give your bear +5 dodge.

As I recall, the elite rings were made to encourage players to wear other vanities instead of the same old cap vanity, before, you had to wear the pieces in order to get the bonus stats.

EDIT: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?72100-Change-to-Pocket-Legends-Elite-Vanity-Item-Set-Bonuses-%96-Introducing-Legendary-Rings
Why did this thread get forgotten?

[Crashy]

So....
Any more ideas on pvp balances?
:)

[Jig]

Tbh, I'm sure we have out in enough info for sts, just need help with this new lvl cap part 2 maybe and release balanced sets

[Crashy]

Tbh, I'm sure we have out in enough info for sts, just need help with this new lvl cap part 2 maybe and release balanced sets

Ya....
Hope they are working/really thinking about it.

[Rushorgtfo]

can we go back to max 5 skill points please. ? Lol

[Jig]

can we go back to max 5 skill points please. ? Lol

Cut half of pl content of then fine!

[Rushorgtfo]

Cut half of pl content of then fine!

Nah I'm serious man. Skill damage is insane I'd honestly rather triple hp half dodge across the board and half hit across the board half crit As well as Nerf auto damage. This would literally just make fights 2x as long. So the "uneven fights" out come will probably be the same winner however it'll just be a prolonged win:)

If 76 cap is the last cap so be it I'm ok with it but I will make AL capping a side project on my character xxclydexx. (More $ :( ) However! I think we are deserving of at least a balanced game..

[Itoopeo]

Dont forget those insane regens of savage set. 40+ regen means that if bird hits 100 dmg every second to bear, it would take 8 seconds to kill a bear (800 health). However thats not happening because bear gets 45 health back every second. Thats why bird makes 55 dmg every second to bear and thats why killing takes 14.545 seconds, which is long enough for bear to get in close range to bird and kill it with 2-3 slashes and less than a second.
If bear runs away when he has 1 healthpoint left, he can get back to full health in 17.756 seconds(Overpowered). Rhinos have buffed 120hp regen, which makes them regen back to full (650hp) in 5.417 seconds. BUT.. Rhinos damage is a lot lower than bears damage, plus bears have a lot more aoe damage, so its okay.

I dont know savage base stats, but it should give about 15-20 hp regen and 15 mana regen when equipped. (15 keeps bears mana full but mages will have problems with mana shield.

One option to balance this is to half mages armor buff, remove dodge and crit from game, and increase the armor a lot. Damage can be same. It would make pvp more skill based (example: When bears versus eachother, the first one to use HS can make it hit, and opponet has lower changes to hit it to debuff his opponet.)

Second option: Remove all percentages from game, and make all skills debuff damage or armor or regen instead of hit% or dodge%.

[Crashy]

Dont forget those insane regens of savage set. 40+ regen means that if bird hits 100 dmg every second to bear, it would take 8 seconds to kill a bear (800 health). However thats not happening because bear gets 45 health back every second. Thats why bird makes 55 dmg every second to bear and thats why killing takes 14.545 seconds, which is long enough for bear to get in close range to bird and kill it with 2-3 slashes and less than a second.
If bear runs away when he has 1 healthpoint left, he can get back to full health in 17.756 seconds(Overpowered). Rhinos have buffed 120hp regen, which makes them regen back to full (650hp) in 5.417 seconds. BUT.. Rhinos damage is a lot lower than bears damage, plus bears have a lot more aoe damage, so its okay.

I dont know savage base stats, but it should give about 15-20 hp regen and 15 mana regen when equipped. (15 keeps bears mana full but mages will have problems with mana shield.

One option to balance this is to half mages armor buff, remove dodge and crit from game, and increase the armor a lot. Damage can be same. It would make pvp more skill based (example: When bears versus eachother, the first one to use HS can make it hit, and opponet has lower changes to hit it to debuff his opponet.)

Second option: Remove all percentages from game, and make all skills debuff damage or armor or regen instead of hit% or dodge%.

Well your over exaggerating on the bear and savage set.
If birds kite and their blind hits, they can dodge pretty insanely.
And if their blind lands and they get their roots on the bear, it's pretty difficult for a bear to go up
And throw the slashes on a bird.
I mean a good bird shud be able to kite and possible nuke bears.
Remember birds have blind,break,roots,rep and the blast.
Using the skills wisely, it is really possible to either prevent bears from coming up to you/
Kill um before thy have a chance to hit you with their beckon stomp/slashes.

[Itoopeo]

Well your over exaggerating on the bear and savage set.
If birds kite and their blind hits, they can dodge pretty insanely.
And if their blind lands and they get their roots on the bear, it's pretty difficult for a bear to go up
And throw the slashes on a bird.
I mean a good bird shud be able to kite and possible nuke bears.
Remember birds have blind,break,roots,rep and the blast.
Using the skills wisely, it is really possible to either prevent bears from coming up to you/
Kill um before thy have a chance to hit you with their beckon stomp/slashes.

Not only birds. Mages have problems too, and hellscream + CB kills foxes damage totally. And.. bears easily dodge blind and thats where birds know do they die or win.
Lets compare beastly set bear and flying bow set bird, both 71:

Bird has 38 buffed dodge (amazing) and bears have about double that :D
Bird has like no change to dodge beckon, which pulls bird all the way to 3m range of bear. Many bears use that birds low dodge, and have high beckon.
If bear gets his HS in, and makes you get stuck, you know you are dead, because your damage is low (bear survives a lot longer) and when bear gets his CB in, you have no damage at all and your dodge is negative.

Now sharp mage L71: No dodge, but mages have armor buff and powerfull heal so they can tank bears some time. a skilled bear can keep mages stunned forever with Crippling slash and hellscream. Mages only change is to ultimate kite with fire and ice, or nuke as hard as possible. But basically bears dodge fire AND ice, so mages have basically no change.



Some may say that L40 platpack bears are op. Thats not true. L40 Pvp is actually kinda good and fair. Some skilled mages can put up a really good challenge to my anti mage bear. (notice: anti-mage) As an anti mage bear, i can kill mages better than runfrumrusher or hurdey, but they kill me in 1v1 usually because they are more like anti bear bears.
Foxes with rhino 3-pack can nuke really hard, but they rely on dodge like birds. Birds with rhino 3 pack do well with that damage they got.
Many bears go with halloween set, and reaper. High dodge but they lose in armor and damage and regen to plat packs. That means they kill plat pack bears easily but lose to mages and birds, and they arent so good at ctf or ffa.

[Crashy]

^ well mages are really the main class that really under power.

[Jig]

Not only birds. Mages have problems too, and hellscream + CB kills foxes damage totally. And.. bears easily dodge blind and thats where birds know do they die or win.
Lets compare beastly set bear and flying bow set bird, both 71:

Bird has 38 buffed dodge (amazing) and bears have about double that :D
Bird has like no change to dodge beckon, which pulls bird all the way to 3m range of bear. Many bears use that birds low dodge, and have high beckon.
If bear gets his HS in, and makes you get stuck, you know you are dead, because your damage is low (bear survives a lot longer) and when bear gets his CB in, you have no damage at all and your dodge is negative.

Now sharp mage L71: No dodge, but mages have armor buff and powerfull heal so they can tank bears some time. a skilled bear can keep mages stunned forever with Crippling slash and hellscream. Mages only change is to ultimate kite with fire and ice, or nuke as hard as possible. But basically bears dodge fire AND ice, so mages have basically no change.



Some may say that L40 platpack bears are op. Thats not true. L40 Pvp is actually kinda good and fair. Some skilled mages can put up a really good challenge to my anti mage bear. (notice: anti-mage) As an anti mage bear, i can kill mages better than runfrumrusher or hurdey, but they kill me in 1v1 usually because they are more like anti bear bears.
Foxes with rhino 3-pack can nuke really hard, but they rely on dodge like birds. Birds with rhino 3 pack do well with that damage they got.
Many bears go with halloween set, and reaper. High dodge but they lose in armor and damage and regen to plat packs. That means they kill plat pack bears easily but lose to mages and birds, and they arent so good at ctf or ffa.

Lol, only way to kill a bear is to have these= Have an average good ping>>Be Very Fast>>And Know how to nuke, you cant kite bears, not with their HIGH dodge these days, same with birds but they seem easier then bears IMO. You cant exactly "Heal" your way through a intvsbear fight, they nuke almost harder then mages, since mages have low armor... Beckon slash stomp there goes
85% of your mana! you go flying! you run back to the bear with 5 seconds left on mana shield, and nuke beg for less dodge and possibly you could get a good hit nuke, but if they get all beckon slash slash stomp, it will nuke you and you will be dead.

Reduce bears hit-dps- and a little dmg, take away dodge, even in birds, and increase HEALTH! Simple done.

[XghostzX]

Anyone remember when mages actually had the upper hand?

[Crashy]

Not only birds. Mages have problems too, and hellscream + CB kills foxes damage totally. And.. bears easily dodge blind and thats where birds know do they die or win.
Lets compare beastly set bear and flying bow set bird, both 71:

Bird has 38 buffed dodge (amazing) and bears have about double that :D
Bird has like no change to dodge beckon, which pulls bird all the way to 3m range of bear. Many bears use that birds low dodge, and have high beckon.
If bear gets his HS in, and makes you get stuck, you know you are dead, because your damage is low (bear survives a lot longer) and when bear gets his CB in, you have no damage at all and your dodge is negative.

Now sharp mage L71: No dodge, but mages have armor buff and powerfull heal so they can tank bears some time. a skilled bear can keep mages stunned forever with Crippling slash and hellscream. Mages only change is to ultimate kite with fire and ice, or nuke as hard as possible. But basically bears dodge fire AND ice, so mages have basically no change.



Some may say that L40 platpack bears are op. Thats not true. L40 Pvp is actually kinda good and fair. Some skilled mages can put up a really good challenge to my anti mage bear. (notice: anti-mage) As an anti mage bear, i can kill mages better than runfrumrusher or hurdey, but they kill me in 1v1 usually because they are more like anti bear bears.
Foxes with rhino 3-pack can nuke really hard, but they rely on dodge like birds. Birds with rhino 3 pack do well with that damage they got.
Many bears go with halloween set, and reaper. High dodge but they lose in armor and damage and regen to plat packs. That means they kill plat pack bears easily but lose to mages and birds, and they arent so good at ctf or ffa.

Lol, only way to kill a bear is to have these= Have an average good ping>>Be Very Fast>>And Know how to nuke, you cant kite bears, not with their HIGH dodge these days, same with birds but they seem easier then bears IMO. You cant exactly "Heal" your way through a intvsbear fight, they nuke almost harder then mages, since mages have low armor... Beckon slash stomp there goes
85% of your mana! you go flying! you run back to the bear with 5 seconds left on mana shield, and nuke beg for less dodge and possibly you could get a good hit nuke, but if they get all beckon slash slash stomp, it will nuke you and you will be dead.

Reduce bears hit-dps- and a little dmg, take away dodge, even in birds, and increase HEALTH! Simple done.

Mhmmm.

[Rushorgtfo]

Anyone remember when mages actually had the upper hand?


Never. They only started becoming a formidable opponent during 50 cap. Starting with toughies mage who was pro for days. Bayou bow dex mages ran 35 cap pallys ran 40-45 espeically with the shock lance update. But int mages they have been nothing but it seems as so thats how there suppose to be? Being support class and all. However rhinos seem to have taken that "support class" title it seems and mages have more leaned towards a sorcere or wizard class. Int mages really never had an upper hand however me you and a few other int mages manage to take down many people and most classes.

[Zeus]

Never. They only started becoming a formidable opponent during 50 cap. Starting with toughies mage who was pro for days. Bayou bow dex mages ran 35 cap pallys ran 40-45 espeically with the shock lance update. But int mages they have been nothing but it seems as so thats how there suppose to be? Being support class and all. However rhinos seem to have taken that "support class" title it seems and mages have more leaned towards a sorcere or wizard class. Int mages really never had an upper hand however me you and a few other int mages manage to take down many people and most classes.

66 cap, they had the upper hand as well.

[Jig]

66 cap, they had the upper hand as well.

Humania and the int dodge set >.<

[Itoopeo]

Just make sure mages dont become OP. Its not fun if Support class owns front line commandos in 1v1. Thats like medic oor cook totally owning a swat guy, or sniper.

Actually... I was thingking about that birds sniper idea... Birds need more range than mages. Reduce mages range to 9-10m and let only birds have 14m

[Doodlebeast]

Just make sure mages dont become OP. Its not fun if Support class owns front line commandos in 1v1. Thats like medic oor cook totally owning a swat guy, or sniper.

Actually... I was thingking about that birds sniper idea... Birds need more range than mages. Reduce mages range to 9-10m and let only birds have 14m

Amazing cooks can make swats surrender. With delicious food.

[Jig]

Just make sure mages dont become OP. Its not fun if Support class owns front line commandos in 1v1. Thats like medic oor cook totally owning a swat guy, or sniper.

Actually... I was thingking about that birds sniper idea... Birds need more range than mages. Reduce mages range to 9-10m and let only birds have 14m
Wow woah there, no need to take away ranges on mages now?! Birds have LONGER range with there bloody bows so give mages a break, they have wands! Geez...

[imxoriginal]

Bump for devs..... Still waiting for some actual answers on this thread or Sams thread. Haven't seen them reply in awhile.

[skrapicoco]

As I recall, the elite rings were made to encourage players to wear other vanities instead of the same old cap vanity, before, you had to wear the pieces in order to get the bonus stats.

EDIT: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?72100-Change-to-Pocket-Legends-Elite-Vanity-Item-Set-Bonuses-%96-Introducing-Legendary-Rings
Why did this thread get forgotten?

Dont forget why they make dragon rings.

[Runfrumrusher]

Actually Peo you're wrong. You're a good bear, but I am able to kill mages easier than you. Simply because with plat pack, I have more armor. I can tank more, and I have decent crit and other stats. However, against bear fights, im not the best because I dont have very high dodge or hit%. Reaper bears tend to be much stronger than plat pack bears in terms of bear to bear fights.