Players using more than 4 skills - Developers Please Read! :)

[Energizeric]

As is being discussed in another thread, many players who play on a PC are able to use keystroke routines to switch out skills during a PvP battle, therefore allowing them to avoid cooldown periods and use 5 or 6 skills instead of 4.

Clearly the game was not intended to be played this way. But you cannot make it so skills cannot be switched out as many players often do this in between battles -- I have often done this in between battles to get ready for the next battle.

So here is my proposed solution: When a new skill is mapped to one of your 4 buttons, there should be a 5 second delay before that skill can be used. This will allow us to retain the ability to change skills in between battles, but would put you at a disadvantage to try to do this during a battle.

Keep in mind this game is called a "Mobile MMORPG" indicating it was primarily meant to be played on a portable device. This exploit of being able to use keystroke routines gives a huge advantage to PC players, and needs to be eliminated if this game is to be considered primarily a mobile game.

Please don't use this thread to debate the subject as there is plenty of debate going on in the other thread. But please thank this thread if you agree. A show of hands for the developers is what we need here.

[falmear]

I don't agree and I'll give you an example. If I am doing 1v1 in TDM there is no rules like in CTF. If I kill a rogue they will run back as fast as they can to kill me before I'm healed or my shield cool down finishes. So when I do 1v1 with a rogue I run 3 attack skills with no heal. When the fight is over I swap heal in to recover health for the next fight and then swap back my attack skill. This way when they charge back I am ready and fully healed, if I have to wait 5 seconds then I'll be dead. So I don't agree with any changes being made unless we see some changes made to mages damage, skills and armor.

[Solid]

+1

Maybe the skill on CD shouldn't be able to be swapped out.

I will thank u in 25 hrs.

[Madnex]

Using hotkeys/keystroke routines is, in fact, unfair for everyone.

But using 5 or 6 skills without automated means is a whole different thing. With the human reaction times and error possibility factors, I'd say it's a fair bet to use or not to use. This is the sole reason I consider it a skill.

I'm not opposing this idea, yet I believe it would block a path used by a portion of capable sorcs to balance their currently disadvantaged position in the class triangle. I also recognize how this workaround is harder to achieve for the phone users that play the same class, but I don't believe the suggested fix to be a long-term satisfying solution.

[Solid]

Using hotkeys/keystroke routines is, in fact, unfair for everyone.

But using 5 or 6 skills without automated means is a whole different thing. With the human reaction times and error possibility factors, I'd say it's a fair bet to use or not to use. This is the sole reason I consider it a skill.

I'm not opposing this idea, yet I believe it would block a path used by a portion of capable sorcs to balance their currently disadvantaged position in the class triangle. I also recognize how this workaround is harder to achieve for the phone users that play the same class, but I don't believe the suggested fix to be a long-term satisfying solution.

Why are there only 4 skill slots......

[Alfai]

Counter strike debate

"Bind v b3, ;.. etc etc"

[Madnex]

It's more like a list:


-The game was made out to be simple, easy to pick up and user friendly. More than 5 skill buttons would cancel that concept.

-Where the 4-skill-slot change button used to be in other Legends games, the arcane pet button appeared.

-Passives were made to avoid the lack of more active skills, as there would be no room to place them.

-There really is no room for another button, no matter how you look at it, without making the screen look like a parade.

-Especially since this was made out to be played on handheld devices too, clogging up the screen is exactly what they were trying to avoid. Thus the completely hideable chat and quest/alert access.

-Finally, a large part of the early game customers was bound to come over from previous Legends games. They couldn't alter something as fundamental as skill slots layout without avoiding confusion/dislikes.

[Milan Lame Man]

So I don't agree with any changes being made unless we see some changes made to mages damage, skills and armor.

Well I see your point, but really, this is a fair solution to skill and pet spamming:
After a skill or pet is swapped in, it is put on its cooldown.

Swapping shield or heal would not be very funny but it's the only fair way to solve it that I can see.
If it would mean no more sorcerers in PvP... then leave it "unsolved".

[Solid]

It's more like a list:


-The game was made out to be simple, easy to pick up and user friendly. More than 5 skill buttons would cancel that concept.

-Where the 4-skill-slot change button used to be in other Legends games, the arcane pet button appeared.

-Passives were made to avoid the lack of more active skills, as there would be no room to place them.

-There really is no room for another button, no matter how you look at it, without making the screen look like a parade.

-Especially since this was made out to be played on handheld devices too, clogging up the screen is exactly what they were trying to avoid. Thus the completely hideable chat and quest/alert access.

-Finally, a large part of the early game customers was bound to come over from previous Legends games. They couldn't alter something as fundamental as skill slots layout without avoiding confusion/dislikes.


STS's first hit PL had 12 skills and it was fine, nothing hard to understand.

4 skills were implemented as check and balance system so not one class could claim superiority.

There are many ways they could've added more skill slots, such as SL's style (SL was a fail) or PL's style. There is nothing confusing except as in why you don't understand there are only 4 skill slots.

[Madnex]

I'm turning this into a debate, apologies ener.


STS's first hit PL had 12 skills and it was fine, nothing hard to understand.
Yeah PL was the first hit but PL was also the first game, meaning they experimented on it and the following two games before releasing AL. Weird thing is, they went with 4 skills for all the following games. Hmm, why would that be.



4 skills were implemented as check and balance system so not one class could claim superiority.
Honestly, keeping the game simple and the screen clean sound like more probable reasons.

Besides, there's no way adding another skill slot or two could make things fair or not; the balance you speak of was implemented on dividing our eight skills to four attacking/four defensive ones --respectively on each class. An extra skill slot would just give variety to skill builds.

If you think the above point is incorrect, then the issue you need to make so many posts about is cross class skill comparison and balance. Not screen skill slot layout.


There are many ways they could've added more skill slots, such as SL's style (SL was a fail) or PL's style. There is nothing confusing except as in why you don't understand there are only 4 skill slots.
Repetition of your first argument's point. They sticked with the 4 skill layout for a reason. Called ergonomics. Doesn't mean the game doesn't get more interesting and competitive through having the skill to play with more, without automated help.

[Solid]

I'm turning this into a debate, apologies ener.


Yeah PL was the first hit but PL was also the first game, meaning they experimented on it and the following two games before releasing AL. Weird thing is, they went with 4 skills for all the following games. Hmm, why would that be.



Honestly, keeping the game simple and the screen clean sound like more probable reasons.

Besides, there's no way adding another skill slot or two could make things fair or not; the balance you speak of was implemented on dividing our eight skills to four attacking/four defensive ones --respectively on each class. An extra skill slot would just give variety to skill builds.

If you think the above point is incorrect, then the issue you need to make so many posts about is cross class skill comparison and balance. Not screen skill slot layout.


Repetition of your first argument's point. They sticked with the 4 skill layout for a reason. Called ergonomics. Doesn't mean the game doesn't get more interesting and competitive through having the skill to play with more, without automated help.

Ugh nope. each of the games have many aspects that determine the amount of skill slots, such as DMG, health, etc. SL has 8 slots not 4.

I never suggested adding more skill slots, evidently I'm against it.

Did you even read Ener's thread? Ener and I want a way to control the use of skills, either in adding a cool down or making skills on CD not "swappable".

[Madnex]

SL has 8 slots not 4.
SL has no passives nor complicated stacking buffs/debuffs. Although if you ever played it, you'd notice that using 9th skill for the weaker class(operative) is completely normal and acceptable. And this is with 8 skills, not 4, so imagine how much more the weaker class needs it with half the skill slots.


About the game becoming more challenging and interesting, of course you disagree since your class is better skill-equipped by default. The only sorcerers you'll find agreeing with you are the ones who --for various reasons-- can't use more than 4 skills, therefore they think of it as unfair gameplay. If the 5th and 6th skill was used only against rogues and not fellow sorcs, I can bet you their position on this would be entirely different.

[Energizeric]

1) There was a HUGE problem with PL -- everyone had the same exact build, so life got really boring and most of us quit. What makes AL interesting is the variety of builds.

2) It's nice that you consider using keystroke routines to be cheating, but players doing it legitimately to be ok. Problem is there is no way the app can possibly know if a keystroke routine is being used. PCs can multitask, and one program has no idea what the other one is doing. So for this reason, we cannot have this feature or else it will surely be abused.

3) Now I know why certain players are so much better than everyone else. Sorry to say, but I can tell when players are using these routines. Everything they do is just a little too perfect. It's the same exact movements every single time. Well, that is fine I suppose as there is nothing that can be done about it. But they should at least be forced to use the same number of skills as those of us who actually play on a mobile device.

4) If as you say (and I agree) that there are balance issues between the classes, then you are making it impossible for these issues to ever be addressed since as a mage you are dominating other players using these tricks. STS has access to statistics, and surely they can see number of kills each class has at end game.,

[Instanthumor]

What about the players that switch skills without the use of keystoke routines, or 'hotkeys', as they call it. IMO, there is nothing wrong with switching skills during fights (the extra 60-70% hp helps), as long as you do not use hotkeys, which are considered cheating.

[Venom]

Have any of you actually tried swapping skills? Say I just used my Juggernaut and now it is in cooldown, i swap to VB and use it. When i switch back to Juggernaut, I can not use it until the cooldown is complete. So no, the cooldown period can not be avoided. STS devs are smart. They just can't find enough space for 5th skill on HUD.. *Hopes for a new transparent HUD with more mappable skills*

[Madnex]

1) There was a HUGE problem with PL -- everyone had the same exact build, so life got really boring and most of us quit. What makes AL interesting is the variety of builds.
Agreed. Still doesn't make the use of 5th skill illegit.


2) It's nice that you consider using keystroke routines to be cheating, but players doing it legitimately to be ok. Problem is there is no way the app can possibly know if a keystroke routine is being used. PCs can multitask, and one program has no idea what the other one is doing. So for this reason, we cannot have this feature or else it will surely be abused.
I'm quite positive that a very small percentage of the decent PvP sorcs has the means, the knowledge or the patience to prepare this. The perfection you speak of comes after thousands of repeats and errors don't disappear just get smaller in number. I've found myself accidentally taking another skill off while switching. That's instant loss.


3) Now I know why certain players are so much better than everyone else. Sorry to say, but I can tell when players are using these routines. Everything they do is just a little too perfect. It's the same exact movements every single time. Well, that is fine I suppose as there is nothing that can be done about it. But they should at least be forced to use the same number of skills as those of us who actually play on a mobile device.
Again, not many can use such form of cheating. I wouldn't mob together every good PvP sorc that knows what he's doing. I'm not even sure when and where hotkeys and macros were brought up; takes one to know one type of thing. Was it ctf? That would explain some things.


4) If as you say (and I agree) that there are balance issues between the classes, then you are making it impossible for these issues to ever be addressed since as a mage you are dominating other players using these tricks. STS has access to statistics, and surely they can see number of kills each class has at end game.
Agreed but to a certain extent. We're not dominating, we're barely surviving. And most of the times 5 skills are not enough to wear down a full mythic rogue with arcane pet. Even harder with warrior.

And I doubt any reliable feedback can come off those statistics considering how everyone on LB as well as a large part of the player base is self farming or buying kills in a regular basis.


Have any of you actually tried swapping skills? Say I just used my Juggernaut and now it is in cooldown, i swap to VB and use it. When i switch back to Juggernaut, I can not use it until the cooldown is complete. So no, the cooldown period can not be avoided. STS devs are smart. They just can't find enough space for 5th skill on HUD.. *Hopes for a new transparent HUD with more mappable skills*

It's not possible to completely escape the reload timers. But for skills that can only be used once and then require long reload [15 secs for example], switching to them, using and switching back after fight makes all 5 skills available without the reload issue you mentioned. You just need to know what to swap and when.

[Venom]

^ Exactly my point. Its just a waste of our couple of seconds coz STS hasn't added a 5th slot yet. So yes, its not illegal or exploit or an abuse if you use 5+ skills. They are available to you so you can use them. Keeps a variety in game, else everyone would just have one typical build right?

[Rare]

Seriously, in all my days, I haven't seen whinier people than pvpers. No offense.

[Solid]

Have any of you actually tried swapping skills? Say I just used my Juggernaut and now it is in cooldown, i swap to VB and use it. When i switch back to Juggernaut, I can not use it until the cooldown is complete. So no, the cooldown period can not be avoided. STS devs are smart. They just can't find enough space for 5th skill on HUD.. *Hopes for a new transparent HUD with more mappable skills*

It works out perfectly for tanks, use jugg swap it out with vb, use VB twice, then swap back to jugg.

And yes I tried it, I felt cheap.

[Madnex]

Seriously, in all my days, I haven't seen whinier people than pvpers. No offense.
Tis true lol.

[dantus]

Imo skill/pet swapping is designed to be done OUT OF COMBAT in between maps or fights. Suggesting that because we have more than 4 skills available means that swapping skills I'm the middle of combat was an intended function is EXACTLY the same as suggesting that because we have more than 1 pet available to us that it is intended for us to continually swap pets and use their arcane ability mid combat. A simple solution for both would be to lock the menu out entirely when IN COMBAT. I also believe that classes are balanced around 4 skills at any given time that is why different abilities have different cooldowns.

[Solid]

Imo skill/pet swapping is designed to be done OUT OF COMBAT in between maps or fights. Suggesting that because we have more than 4 skills available means that swapping skills I'm the middle of combat was an intended function is EXACTLY the same as suggesting that because we have more than 1 pet available to us that it is intended for us to continually swap pets and use their arcane ability mid combat. A simple solution for both would be to lock the menu out entirely when IN COMBAT. I also believe that classes are balanced around 4 skills at any given time that is why different abilities have different cooldowns.

+1.

[Venom]

It works out perfectly for tanks, use jugg swap it out with vb, use VB twice, then swap back to jugg.

And yes I tried it, I felt cheap.

Yes, you would feel cheap because you probably used the cheap pet, cheap gear on your warrior as its a low level. You don't even require 5 skills at lower levels than 30 as the mage/rogues don't deal as much damage. That feeling of being cheap is just you though. There are many warriors who practice this, including me and we really love it. It has taken the tanking abilities to the next level. All you expect is the rogue should be OP. As you and everyone else here knows a rogue has the same build in pvp - Sp, Nox, Aimed, Heal. There, your job is done with 4 skills as you get 3 attack and 1 heal skill. Now, the warrior and mage, they have a buff and a heal skill in pvp in general. Shield gives armor buff on mage, VB gives many buffs on warrior. So they are left with just 2 attack skills. So try to think from other class perspective as well.

[dantus]

Yes, you would feel cheap because you probably used the cheap pet, cheap gear on your warrior as its a low level. You don't even require 5 skills at lower levels than 30 as the mage/rogues don't deal as much damage. That feeling of being cheap is just you though. There are many warriors who practice this, including me and we really love it. It has taken the tanking abilities to the next level. All you expect is the rogue should be OP. As you and everyone else here knows a rogue has the same build in pvp - Sp, Nox, Aimed, Heal. There, your job is done with 4 skills as you get 3 attack and 1 heal skill. Now, the warrior and mage, they have a buff and a heal skill in pvp in general. Shield gives armor buff on mage, VB gives many buffs on warrior. So they are left with just 2 attack skills. So try to think from other class perspective as well.
"There are many warriors who practice this, including me and we really love it" this made me lol.

[Limsi]

I'm not sure though but if I can recall during the past 2 official tourneys, it was a rule that no one should be allowed to re summon a pet and switch skills during the actual battle. If it's true, then I believe it was implemented for a purpose. Again I might be wrong!

[Solid]

Yes, you would feel cheap because you probably used the cheap pet, cheap gear on your warrior as its a low level. You don't even require 5 skills at lower levels than 30 as the mage/rogues don't deal as much damage. That feeling of being cheap is just you though. There are many warriors who practice this, including me and we really love it. It has taken the tanking abilities to the next level. All you expect is the rogue should be OP. As you and everyone else here knows a rogue has the same build in pvp - Sp, Nox, Aimed, Heal. There, your job is done with 4 skills as you get 3 attack and 1 heal skill. Now, the warrior and mage, they have a buff and a heal skill in pvp in general. Shield gives armor buff on mage, VB gives many buffs on warrior. So they are left with just 2 attack skills. So try to think from other class perspective as well.



Used crawly, maxed tarlok gear almost full super, l25 tank,

I beat hooks.

Buff said?

[Limsi]

I believe none of you has actually played end game PvP as sorc. So spare us the generalized conclusion jump just because wars (that's your class isn't it?) can survive without 5th.

It may not be intended for a 5th skill to roll in mid-fight, but it's been done in previous legends games and no one ever complained. I don't see how suddenly it's an issue just because we get to win 2/5 fights now instead of 0 or 1.

He's actually an end game pvp mage who's also in the leaderboards. No offense! :D

[Madnex]

I believe none of you has actually played end game PvP as sorc. So spare us the generalized conclusion jump just because wars (that's your class isn't it?) can survive without 5th.

It may not be intended for a 5th skill to roll in mid-fight, but it's been done in previous legends games and no one ever complained. I don't see how suddenly it's an issue just because we get to win 2/5 fights now instead of 0 or 1.

[Solid]

@omni
Both the OP and Dantus are endgame sorcerer that are "pro".

I'm not trying to be rude, but when I saw you in town, you weren't even properly geared.

[Madnex]

He's actually an end game pvp mage who's also in the leaderboards. No offense! :D
I'm not offended at all, I made a pure speculation based on luck. My next guess happens to be accurate though: PvP sorc who's not using 5th. How about that?

And the fact he's on LB is probably worsening my idea about him since pretty much everyone apart from people in timed runs sections farm to keep/raise their rank.

We've been through these a lot of times. Anyone who can't use 5th; rogues because they claim inefficiency/don't have the skill to do it and fellow sorcs who simply can't use it because they lack the experience to, those are the opposing side.

For the last time, it's not a glitch, nor a trick that only few have access to neither any form of unethical cheating. It's a feasible way to combat the current sorc's disadvantaged position when 1v1'ing rogues or wars. And it's available for anyone, both on chrome and phone.



Although I like new people joining the debate, I can't help but think ctf's efforts on guild and public chat calling for people to support her side finally worked. Not a call to add their opinion; a call to blindly support hers. A word comes in mind. Yes, it's sad.








@omni
Both the OP and Dantus are endgame sorcerer that are "pro".

I'm not trying to be rude, but when I saw you in town, you weren't even properly geared.
I also saw you in town. I take it you're unaware of my alts, so I'd like to keep it that way for now. The only thing this new merch toon lacks is a proper mythic staff, which is currently in use on main. Everything else's grand gemmed myths; mostly grand wisdoms with a few grand glacials.

It's fun how you haven't spotted my main yet.

[Venom]

I'm not sure though but if I can recall during the past 2 official tourneys, it was a rule that no one should be allowed to re summon a pet and switch skills during the actual battle. If it's true, then I believe it was implemented for a purpose. Again I might be wrong!

Pet switching/resummon or respeccing in between matches wasn't allowed. Remap and a respec are 2 different things.

[Solid]

I'm not offended at all, I made a pure speculation based on luck. My next guess happens to be accurate though: PvP sorc who's not using 5th. How about that?

And the fact he's on LB is probably worsening my idea about him since pretty much everyone apart from people in timed runs sections farm to keep/raise their rank.

We've been through these a lot of times. Anyone who can't use 5th; rogues because they claim inefficiency/don't have the skill to do it and fellow sorcs who simply can't use it because they lack the experience to, those are the opposing side.

For the last time, it's not a glitch, nor a trick that only few have access to neither any form of unethical cheating. It's a feasible way to combat the current sorc's disadvantaged position when 1v1'ing rogues or wars. And it's available for anyone, both on chrome and phone.



Although I like new people joining the debate, I can't help but think ctf's efforts on guild and public chat calling for people to support her side finally worked. Not a call to add their opinion; a call to blindly support hers. A word comes in mind. Yes, it's sad.

I'm sure dantus and ener have tried using 5/6 skills but realized the inequality bequeathed in it.

You say everyone on the LB farms, this is because you are not on the LB and have no idea how long it takes to get on it, coming from a season 1 player...


Your saying that a because a sorc is "doomed" in 1v1 they have a right to swap skills? This is because, (no offence) you are not a good mage or don't know any good mages.

There are many mages that can kill rogues with simply 4 skills.

Yes, I ask my friends for support, that's what friends do.. Support you when you need support.

I suggest joining a new clique or making some good friends. (No offence)

[dantus]

I'm not offended at all, I made a pure speculation based on luck. My next guess happens to be accurate though: PvP sorc who's not using 5th. How about that?

And the fact he's on LB is probably worsening my idea about him since pretty much everyone apart from people in timed runs sections farm to keep/raise their rank.

We've been through these a lot of times. Anyone who can't use 5th; rogues because they claim inefficiency/don't have the skill to do it and fellow sorcs who simply can't use it because they lack the experience to, those are the opposing side.

For the last time, it's not a glitch, nor a trick that only few have access to neither any form of unethical cheating. It's a feasible way to combat the current sorc's disadvantaged position when 1v1'ing rogues or wars. And it's available for anyone, both on chrome and phone.



Although I like new people joining the debate, I can't help but think ctf's efforts on guild and public chat calling for people to support her side finally worked. Not a call to add their opinion; a call to blindly support hers. A word comes in mind. Yes, it's sad.
If this was actually a viable way to combat class imbalance (which its not) you only make it more difficult for developers to balance the classes by keeping this an option. At endgame skill swapping or not a mage ain't gonna beat a fully geared *competent* tank. Another possible fix is to simply add slots to skill map. This would likely cause more balancing issues though because as I said before CLASSES ARE BALANCED AROUND 4 ACTIVE SKILLS IN COMBAT.

[Limsi]

For the record, I came here to my own accord. I've been following the previous thread which contained more of the nastier replies and got fed up, in which I then decided to shift my attention here. :P

[Solid]

If this was actually a viable way to combat class imbalance (which its not) you only make it more difficult for developers to balance the classes by keeping this an option. At endgame skill swapping or not a mage ain't gonna beat a fully geared *competent* tank. Another possible fix is to simply add slots to skill map. This would likely cause more balancing issues though because as I said before CLASSES ARE BALANCED AROUND 4 ACTIVE SKILLS IN COMBAT.

Correct, the game developers attempted to create class equality on the idea that you would use 4 skills, not 5/6/7/8.

[Madnex]

I'm sure dantus and ener have tried using 5/6 skills but realized the inequality bequeathed in it.
No, you might be right about me not being "more pro" than ener and the dant dude, I just can't say because I've barely played with them. Six is inefficient unless the opponent runs for it. There's no other safe gap mid-fight that allows second switch and swapping an attack skill is plain useless on any scenario. Even if they have tried, they've probably failed and gave up. It takes much more skill to use 5th as sorc than war, truth be told. And no matter how experiened you think they are, skill swap is a completely different thing from charging skills and walking around; it's a new process, one you have to time precisely.



You say everyone on the LB farms, this is because you are not on the LB and have no idea how long it takes to get on it, coming from a season 1 player...
FYI, I know quite a few people that have been on LB on season 1-2 and I'm aware that most of them purely spent an awfully long time on. That's past though; I've bumped on farmers from the current LB a lot lately. About PvE, I've seen and recorded patterns and behaviours that can only be explained by use of automated means. And not just anyone, I'm talking about people who share a spot at "top" players.

While I have caught only 2 people from lower LB self-farming myself, there's a new hobby out there. To take pics of anyone you see farming like that. I was going to make a thread about it with a lot of material but I was stopped because we're not supposed to name other people here or whatever. We even have people from LB admitting that they cheat in such ways openly. So yeah, I'm pretty convinced that normal playtime, no matter how extended, can't catch up. Therefore, the whole LB has been pushed into self/dummy-farming.

It's an adjust or get passed situation but it doesn't change the fact that the majority does it. [/quote]



Your saying that a because a sorc is "doomed" in 1v1 they have a right to swap skills? This is because, (no offence) you are not a good mage or don't know any good mages.
There are many mages that can kill rogues with simply 4 skills.
I never said it's impossible. With top myth gear and arcane pet/staff an experienced sorc has a 10-15% window to win against a same level geared rogue, but that's not the occassion most of the times. The chance to win is disappointing itself, even without taking note of the decent rogue-sorc player percentage out there. There are way more rogues. And 1v1 is diamond rare since even if it starts as one and the opponent thinks he's at disadvantage, he'll just run back in the protection of the group. Like he/she is used to. Pathetic but let's face it; there's no real PvP out there, just flagging and unorganized ganging on undergeared players.



Yes, I ask my friends for support, that's what friends do.. Support you when you need support.
I suggest joining a new clique or making some good friends. (No offence)
I'm not offended because I never considered calling my friends or guildmates as back up to support my own incapabilities. I brought statistical evidence, solid proof that rogues should keep it down about 5th.

You pushed people to support your own claims. Of course as friends they'll instantly back up what you say, the same way those great sorcs happened not to be able to use 5th. If they can't relate to a matter since for the most part it's unknown to them, how could you dragging them in ever result in unbiased and constructive thread feedback?


I'll be closing my rather large contributive post count on this thread with this.
Numbers are unprejudiced, people aren't.

[dantus]

I'm not offended at all, I made a pure speculation based on luck. My next guess happens to be accurate though: PvP sorc who's not using 5th. How about that?

And the fact he's on LB is probably worsening my idea about him since pretty much everyone apart from people in timed runs sections farm to keep/raise their rank.

We've been through these a lot of times. Anyone who can't use 5th; rogues because they claim inefficiency/don't have the skill to do it and fellow sorcs who simply can't use it because they lack the experience to, those are the opposing side.

For the last time, it's not a glitch, nor a trick that only few have access to neither any form of unethical cheating. It's a feasible way to combat the current sorc's disadvantaged position when 1v1'ing rogues or wars. And it's available for anyone, both on chrome and phone.



Although I like new people joining the debate, I can't help but think ctf's efforts on guild and public chat calling for people to support her side finally worked. Not a call to add their opinion; a call to blindly support hers. A word comes in mind. Yes, it's sad.








I also saw you in town. I take it you're unaware of my alts, so I'd like to keep it that way for now. The only thing this new merch toon lacks is a proper mythic staff, which is currently in use on main. Everything else's grand gemmed myths; mostly grand wisdoms with a few grand glacials.

It's fun how you haven't spotted my main yet.
1. I can't recall a single time I've been asked to support someone's thread. I'm not supporting ctf, but rather giving my opinion.
2. You assume I farm kills because I'm on the leaderboard? I have roughly a 1.1:1kdr in ctf 2:1kdr in tdm.does that sound like a kill farmers kdr? I stick it out in tough fights and I play fairly.
3. Your just arguing an illogical point, and are counterproductive to balancing classes.

[Erdnase]

Im fine with making some changes to this if it stops the abuse with hotkeys. The easiest solution to my knowledge would be to have skill effects go away once unmapped. For example, if a war used jug then switched it to something else, the buffs of jug would go away. The no changing a cool-down skill i could live with too, but i think this is more practical. It would leave me the ability to switch to heal after a fight then back to shield, which is my primary use of changing anyway. If taking away the ability to use 5 skills at once also leads to a buff for my class i would be more than happy as well, but the main goal i see here is to stop hotkey abuse.

[Sky_is_epicgearz]

lock swapping of skills when the player ISNT in the rest stance

[Solid]

No, you might be right about me not being "more pro" than ener and the dant dude, I just can't say because I've barely played with them. Six is inefficient unless the opponent runs for it. There's no other safe gap mid-fight that allows second switch and swapping an attack skill is plain useless on any scenario. Even if they have tried, they've probably failed and gave up. It takes much more skill to use 5th as sorc than war, truth be told. And no matter how experiened you think they are, skill swap is a completely different thing from charging skills and walking around; it's a new process, one you have to time precisely.



FYI, I know quite a few people that have been on LB on season 1-2 and I'm aware that most of them purely spent an awfully long time on. That's past though; I've bumped on farmers from the current LB a lot lately. About PvE, I've seen and recorded patterns and behaviours that can only be explained by use of automated means. And not just anyone, I'm talking about people who share a spot at "top" players.

While I have caught only 2 people from lower LB self-farming myself, there's a new hobby out there. To take pics of anyone you see farming like that. I was going to make a thread about it with a lot of material but I was stopped because we're not supposed to name other people here or whatever. We even have people from LB admitting that they cheat in such ways openly. So yeah, I'm pretty convinced that normal playtime, no matter how extended, can't catch up. Therefore, the whole LB has been pushed into self/dummy-farming.

It's an adjust or get passed situation but it doesn't change the fact that the majority does it.



I never said it's impossible. With top myth gear and arcane pet/staff an experienced sorc has a 10-15% window to win against a same level geared rogue, but that's not the occassion most of the times. The chance to win is disappointing itself, even without taking note of the decent rogue-sorc player percentage out there. There are way more rogues. And 1v1 is diamond rare since even if it starts as one and the opponent thinks he's at disadvantage, he'll just run back in the protection of the group. Like he/she is used to. Pathetic but let's face it; there's no real PvP out there, just flagging and unorganized ganging on undergeared players.



I'm not offended because I never considered calling my friends or guildmates as back up to support my own incapabilities. I brought statistical evidence, solid proof that rogues should keep it down about 5th.

You pushed people to support your own claims. Of course as friends they'll instantly back up what you say, the same way those great sorcs happened not to be able to use 5th. If they can't relate to a matter since for the most part it's unknown to them, how could you dragging them in ever result in unbiased and constructive thread feedback?


I'll be closing my rather large contributive post count on this thread with this.
Numbers are unprejudiced, people aren't.[/QUOTE]

Like I stated before, 4 is efficient , if you are good. And no it doesn't take more "skill" to swap as a sorc then as a warrior.

Also approximately 75% of the LB is the same as previous seasons, the timed runs people will get their records, the kills people will get their spot on the kills board, very rarely will a farmer or a hardcore player enter the kills board.

All of your statements seem to be biased making everything YOU say biased, for example -."can't catch up","the whole LBs has been pushed into self/dummy-farming etc.

You are actually very blind, as a rogue I can easily do 500 kills a day in CTF and 200 flags if I fully devote myself to PvP, a small minority of cheaters make up the LB but nonetheless they are a detriment. So it is very possible for a newcomer to make the LBs.

10-15% to kill a rogue? As I stated earlier, you do not know any "pro" mages. Several mages can kill rogues consistently, not 10-15%.

Your last point, you have never brought guildies or friends to support your incapiblities. You also said you brought statistical evidence, what? All you did was make wild generalizations and opinions, no actually facts were presented in your counter. I never asked my guildies for support on my incapabilities nor can I make them, I can ask for CONSTRUCTIVE feedback, like I said earlier; friends are a completely different topic and highly doubt you have actually had a clique of TRUE friends. I don't push or force people for support, merely honest feedback.

[Solid]

lock swapping of skills when the player ISNT in the rest stance
This is a fine idea.

[dantus]

Just lock the entire menu function while in combat (not in the rest stance) I suggested this on the previous page. This would also take care of the pet abuse. If you needed to swap a skill out for example to heal you must be out of combat to do so. The only "disadvantage" is you can't zone out mid combat to beef up your kdr..shouldn't do this anyway.

[Ravager]

I'm not sure though but if I can recall during the past 2 official tourneys, it was a rule that no one should be allowed to re summon a pet and switch skills during the actual battle. If it's true, then I believe it was implemented for a purpose. Again I might be wrong!

It was only pet switching that was banned during tournaments I believe.

[Erdnase]

Just lock the entire menu function while in combat (not in the rest stance) I suggested this on the previous page. This would also take care of the pet abuse. If you needed to swap a skill out for example to heal you must be out of combat to do so. The only "disadvantage" is you can't zone out mid combat to beef up your kdr..shouldn't do this anyway.

Well, given that you get a death if you leave during combat stance anyway theres not a big difference.

I could go for this idea as well, but i think it could still pose an issue when changing in-between battles.

[Ravager]

Some people think that during a 5v5 it is cheating to revive and go back into battle. So they set the rules before they fight.

Some people are ok with the skill switching. Why attempt to take that away?

There are a few strategies that you can try as they switch. Summon valkin for a quick boost and mana regen then swap out? Its just an example. Toss a veil then switch as they switch.

Set the rules before the fight.

[Solid]

It was only pet switching that was banned during tournaments I believe.

STS most likely assumed you would not.

[Anarchist]

He said don't debate but thank if you agree and they still debated.

[dantus]

He said don't debate but thank if you agree and they still debated.

That is the nature of the forums. So what does that imply ..agree or stfu?

[Energizeric]

I'm quite offended that you think all leaderboard players have to farm kills to be there. That is simply not the case at all. Not only have I never farmed, but anyone who knows me knows that I often encourage everyone in CTF to NOT allow free flags, and instead I have created a flagging build and I encourage the others to try to kill me when I have the flag. I am also always hearing from my guildmates that I should borrow money from them to get the 50m & 100m gold achievements, but I have refused to do so instead hoping to get those achievements over time by myself.

So don't accuse people of cheating just because many others do it. Some of us prefer to put in the time and get to the leaderboards legitimately. Yes, it takes a ton of playing hours per week to stay on the leaderboards, but I'm proud to have made the top 25 sorcerer list for 3 seasons in a row and hoping to once again be there for season 5.

[Anarchist]

That is the nature of the forums. So what does that imply ..agree or stfu?

:-P

[Ravager]

I'm quite offended that you think all leaderboard players have to farm kills to be there. That is simply not the case at all. Not only have I never farmed, but anyone who knows me knows that I often encourage everyone in CTF to NOT allow free flags, and instead I have created a flagging build and I encourage the others to try to kill me when I have the flag. I am also always hearing from my guildmates that I should borrow money from them to get the 50m & 100m gold achievements, but I have refused to do so instead hoping to get those achievements over time by myself.

So don't accuse people of cheating just because many others do it. Some of us prefer to put in the time and get to the leaderboards legitimately. Yes, it takes a ton of playing hours per week to stay on the leaderboards, but I'm proud to have made the top 25 sorcerer list for 3 seasons in a row and hoping to once again be there for season 5.

Some people like free flagging. Some people dont. (I dont)
Some people like skill switching. Some people dont.

Regardless, you are a honorable player and I always enjoy your informative posts.

[Zeus]

My outlook on it is this: summon/dismiss to avoid skill cool down is being patched, right?

Well, this is the same exact concept, only you are switching the skill for another skill because one skill is one cooldown. You're still avoiding a cooldown, which entirely defeats the purpose.

[Ravager]

My outlook on it is this: summon/dismiss to avoid skill cool down is being patched, right?

Well, this is the same exact concept, only you are switching the skill for another skill because one skill is one cooldown. You're still avoiding a cooldown, which entirely defeats the purpose.

I think it depends. Perhaps the developers havent thought of a way to incorporate a 5th skill button in the current UI that is clean and usable. If they dont want us to, lm sure they can easily lock us out of skill mapping, pets, loadouts, etc.

[Anarchist]

I think Energi idea is good with the cooldown it will solve the matter. just increase the cooldown from 5 to 10 c:

[Uzii]

First i dont pvp. But the suggested solution will affect pve also am i right? Why should the pve aspect of the game suffer bc of pvp?

I can do with my skill points what i want. And as lvl cap rises ppl allocate them to more skills and ofc they want to use them. If this wasnt meant like that the lvl cap would stop loong ago, or we wouldnt get skill points at all.


Using hotkeys/keystroke routines is, in fact, unfair for everyone.

But using 5 or 6 skills without automated means is a whole different thing. With the human reaction times and error possibility factors, I'd say it's a fair bet to use or not to use. This is the sole reason I consider it a skill.

I'm not opposing this idea, yet I believe it would block a path used by a portion of capable sorcs to balance their currently disadvantaged position in the class triangle. I also recognize how this workaround is harder to achieve for the phone users that play the same class, but I don't believe the suggested fix to be a long-term satisfying solution.

This explains its all. Its up to player how fast he can change the skills and part of the strategy i would say, its double edged sword.
Hotkey users will be in advantage even when only 4 skills where allowed so...

And why r there only 4 skill slots, bc really, u know, not everyone play on pc or tablet, there r small phones out there that have such small screen that i often find myself clicking different skill next to the skill i wanted to click.

And abt SL if u played it u would know that on the screen u see only 4 and u swap between 2 skill mapings (in AL on the place of the swap button is pet feeding button, but Madnex already said it too)
And u dont get to use all 8 skills at once, as u lvl up u unlock the skills at certain lvl (dont remember excatly which lvls r that, was loong ago since i lvled up in SL).

[Energizeric]

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again..... the purpose of only allowing 4 skills was to create variety in builds. Otherwise everyone ends up with the same exact build and the game gets super boring like it did in PL.

[Instanthumor]

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again..... the purpose of only allowing 4 skills was to create variety in builds. Otherwise everyone ends up with the same exact build and the game gets super boring like it did in PL.

IMO, most warriors and rogues already have the same builds..

[Ravager]

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again..... the purpose of only allowing 4 skills was to create variety in builds. Otherwise everyone ends up with the same exact build and the game gets super boring like it did in PL.

Until its quoted by a dev, its an opinion and not a fact.

[Energizeric]

IMO, most warriors and rogues already have the same builds..

Then they need to make adjustments to the other 4 skills to make them more desirable.

But I was very much under the impression that there is a full variety of builds for different purposes. For PvE, a certain set of 4 skills would be best, while for PvP a certain set of skills would be best, same for timed runs, or for elites. Depending on your focus, a different set of 4 skills is best. At least that is how it works for sorcerers. If all rogues and warriors use the same 4 skills, then it would seem that the other 4 skills need to be improved or made to be more useful. For sorcerers there is not one single skill that has no purpose, and there is much debate over which build is best for different purposes. There are at least 3 good PvP builds I know of, and many more good PvE builds that I know of. Every sorcerer you find uses something different.

[Energizeric]

Until its quoted by a dev, its an opinion and not a fact.

It was stated by developers way back when the game was first released. Most of the original players were former PL players, and we all found it very strange that there were only 4 skills.

[Ravager]

Until its quoted by a dev, its an opinion and not a fact.

It was stated by developers way back when the game was first released. Most of the original players were former PL players, and we all found it very strange that there were only 4 skills.

In the beginning yes. The game has been refined and updated so much that the current state of their thoughts may be different.

[inkredible]

As is being discussed in another thread, many players who play on a PC are able to use keystroke routines to switch out skills during a PvP battle, therefore allowing them to avoid cooldown periods and use 5 or 6 skills instead of 4.

Clearly the game was not intended to be played this way. But you cannot make it so skills cannot be switched out as many players often do this in between battles -- I have often done this in between battles to get ready for the next battle.

So here is my proposed solution: When a new skill is mapped to one of your 4 buttons, there should be a 5 second delay before that skill can be used. This will allow us to retain the ability to change skills in between battles, but would put you at a disadvantage to try to do this during a battle.

Keep in mind this game is called a "Mobile MMORPG" indicating it was primarily meant to be played on a portable device. This exploit of being able to use keystroke routines gives a huge advantage to PC players, and needs to be eliminated if this game is to be considered primarily a mobile game.

Please don't use this thread to debate the subject as there is plenty of debate going on in the other thread. But please thank this thread if you agree. A show of hands for the developers is what we need here.


I use 5 skills but i dont use it to "get away from cool down" i use it for tanking purposes..
if theres a lot of mages and warrior againsts.. then i use my jugg / one attack skill .. (tanking spec)
if its just a bunch of noobs or people i could beat easy then id take out jugg,, pull out two attack skill.. but not to cheat out people

[Energizeric]

I use 5 skills but i dont use it to "get away from cool down" i use it for tanking purposes..
if theres a lot of mages and warrior againsts.. then i use my jugg / one attack skill .. (tanking spec)
if its just a bunch of noobs or people i could beat easy then id take out jugg,, pull out two attack skill.. but not to cheat out people

I have often done the exact same thing. I often have Fire/Curse/Shield/Heal when there are many rogues around, and if there are more warriors I change out Curse for Lightning. The difference is that we are doing this in between battles, not right in middle of the battle. So a 5 second delay before you can use the new skill is of no issue to those using a 5th skill like this. We are really only using 4 skills, we are just carrying an extra skill so that we can customize our 4 skills for each specific situation. I have no issue with this at all.

[Solid]

I have often done the exact same thing. I often have Fire/Curse/Shield/Heal when there are many rogues around, and if there are more warriors I change out Curse for Lightning. The difference is that we are doing this in between battles, not right in middle of the battle. So a 5 second delay before you can use the new skill is of no issue to those using a 5th skill like this. We are really only using 4 skills, we are just carrying an extra skill so that we can customize our 4 skills for each specific situation. I have no issue with this at all.



This is make skills on cool down, unable to be swappable.

[Zynzyn]

One keystroke doesnt swap skills. There is no hotkey for switching skills .I could be wrong but is that possible? I think players on pc as well as android have to swap skills by clicking map skills. Its a long process with the risk of death in pvp.

[Energizeric]

One keystroke doesnt swap skills. There is no hotkey for switching skills .I could be wrong but is that possible? I think players on pc as well as android have to swap skills by clicking map skills. Its a long process with the risk of death in pvp.

There are a ton of PC programs that can record and playback keystrokes. So for example, you can have the program record your keystrokes to change out your skills, and then map that procedure to our F12 function key. Then every time you press F12, it plays back those keystrokes in the same order you pressed them when you recorded them. Have one key map the change one way, and another key map the change back the other way. Now you can change skills mid fight without worrying about pressing the wrong button by accident and messing things up.

[dantus]

I think the first step would be for a dev to comment as to whether or not this is intended. There are currently several threads related to this that have gotten a lot of attention from players recently. It would be nice to know whether it is even worth discussing.

[Anarchist]

There are a ton of PC programs that can record and playback keystrokes. So for example, you can have the program record your keystrokes to change out your skills, and then map that procedure to our F12 function key. Then every time you press F12, it plays back those keystrokes in the same order you pressed them when you recorded them. Have one key map the change one way, and another key map the change back the other way. Now you can change skills mid fight without worrying about pressing the wrong button by accident and messing things up.

WoW i didn't know about now i even more for Stopping this skill exploit

[Rare]

So for example, you can have the program record your keystrokes to change out your skills,

Are there keystrokes to change skills?

[Nesox]

Are there keystrokes to change skills?

On a PC there is. On any other OS there is not. Hence this entire thread about how this sucks for the rest of us.

[Solid]

On a PC there is. On any other OS there is not. Hence this entire thread about how this sucks for the rest of us.

Still no Dev/Mod reply?

[Instanthumor]

Still no Dev/Mod reply?

I'm still waiting for one as well.

[Rare]

Didn't realize there was a keystroke for changing weapons/equips as I've never played on Chrome really. If there is, that's a pretty sizable advantage.

[Energizeric]

Even if there wasn't a way to do it with keystrokes, some of these programs can also record and playback mouse movements. So it really makes no difference.

[Anarchist]

At the end all this talk talk is useless, for hell mages and war would accept their precious advantage to be removed and rebalance things the way they are supposed to be.
Mage > rogue.
Rogue > War.
War > Mage.

Any skill exploit is just by passing the natural order of things and trying to pull as much power to your side of the triangle. This is the truth not "it is for survivability" "we are weak" those are just mere excuse.

I am sure Sts will eventually fix this skill exploit.
Freeing a class from having skill cooldowns wheither he changes the skill for more "survivability" or not is unacceptable.

If sts consider Energ idea i am sure 100% none of you will be changing anymore your skills during a fight.

[Fauksuras]

A fifth skill slot would make warriors even more OP in PVP

[dantus]

A fifth skill slot would make warriors even more OP in PVP

Lol hate to break it too you but many warriors are already using 6 skills.

[Fauksuras]

Lol hate to break it too you but many warriors are already using 6 skills.

I know, i have five skills myself. But changing them isnt seamless and requires completely stopping the game to access a menu. With a button right there kt would be way easier with no transition.

Now about key bindingds, yes its possible. However i dont know if these people can access all their skills without swapping them out.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

[Nesox]

Why not just make it impossible to swap out a skill that is currently cooling off? Or just not be able to access the skill selection menu unless all 4 are active? All skills have cooldowns that are longer than their effects so this would prevent "cast n swap" tactics.

[Energizeric]

Lol hate to break it too you but many warriors are already using 6 skills.

Another reason why this issue needs to be addressed. Players are supposed to choose 4 skills. You can carry more with you in your skill setup in order to be able to customize for each situation, but for each battle you are supposed to use 4.

[Instanthumor]

Another reason why this issue needs to be addressed. Players are supposed to choose 4 skills. You can carry more with you in your skill setup in order to be able to customize for each situation, but for each battle you are supposed to use 4.

I don't know any warrior that uses 6 skills.. It's not worth it. There are plenty who use 5, but no one uses six..

[Zeus]

I don't know any warrior that uses 6 skills.. It's not worth it. There are plenty who use 5, but no one uses six..

Nameless uses six skills.

[extrapayah]

I consider people who are able to change skills in game quickly are skillful,
so i think devs should not need to add restriction to make users not be able to change the cooldown-ed skills

and no, there isn't any hotkey/shortcut to show skill menu, only 'i' key for inventory, and yes pc player can install a program to replay mouse movement and click to open menu and change skill, but still... it is not instantaneous, and depends on how fast the menu appear (lagged situation can make subsequent menu appear slowly)

i thinks devs should be either:
1. limit active skill to 4, not making any character learn 5th skill, or

2. add button to change skill set quickly, i think with this, gameplay will change a little bit, and it will be challenging for developers to nerf or buff the current passive ability, to make players having hard time to choose between adding another active skill, or passive, for me, this option will be interesting, but will make devs work very hard...

thank you!!!

[Robhawk]

Hey Eric, im with ya - like nearly everytime you post something in this forum! :adoration:

[Solid]

I don't know any warrior that uses 6 skills.. It's not worth it. There are plenty who use 5, but no one uses six..

Badboy, pretty sure zeph. All challenging tanks will use 6 in 1v1.