Please don't drown us!

[Anarchist]

These days the more i read complaining threads about mages being too weak the more i think everything is balanced.

"Why did dev make mages so squishy?why????? T_T " -cit

First of all this game wasn't built around PvP but at the base of AL there is PvE.
The proof is that the PvP system was added afterwards.


But let us analize this matter in order:


Wars:were made to tank.

What is the homework of a tank?

Receiving high damage input from the enemies and making sure to keep the mobs away from the mages and the rogues.
Wars my dear fellas are the sheild of the party ergo they need a high defence and many many health.
Con: They have low damage [Or should have , go check arcane maulers and full myth wars for a antitesi to what i just stated about a wars damage]

SUGGESTION: Wars should be nerfed so they really have low damage, specially that arcane maul, nerf it! How can you say a war has low damage when he surpasses 600 dmg with buff and 500 without buff holding a arc maul?


Rogues: Were made to do Single target damage
Rogues aren't overpowered for goodness sake!
A rogue can get oneshotted by anyboss that oneshots a mage
if they are on the same power range.

Whats is the homework of a rogue:

Snipe the enemies to death and snipe them fast.
Rogues have high single target damage output.
Cons:
Most balanced class except for the fact they can't deal with too much mobs at the same time.

SUGGESTION: don't make a arcane bow for this class.

[Anarchist]

Mages: "Were made to do crowd control"

No mages aren't weak
so stop complaining cause a rogue shotted you. A rogue that shots a mages will definately still be able to shot another rogue.

What is the homework of mages:
Mages are monsters in pve they control the mobs i can swear to you a skilled mage rarely gets hitten in PvE.
Adding more defence to a already op toon in pve we make it Godlike thats is why my dear mages you are made to be squishy. Your defence is low but your attack is outstanding, taken u know how to play.

SUGGESTION: Mage arcane staff must be enhanced, thats is not a arcane staff it is a toothpick.



CONCLUSION

Why did i write all this stuff explaining PvE when your prob is in the PvP category?
Simple in a dev eyes PVP come after PVE. So it is obvious the decisions made for a class in pve might not give the desired result of that class in PvP.
For example u can't nerf war high defence or life cuz when they will go on a map they wont be able to do what they are meant for anymore.
This goes for mages defence enhancement and rogue crit and damage reduction.


But a triangle keep things balanced, a bit:

Rogue>Wars
Wars>Mages
Mages>Rogues

Dear mages don't cry cause you cant kill a war they have advantage over you when geared equally you loose i am sorry.

As for wars complaining they have to kill a rogue so they need fifth skill my dear fellas u are in disadvantage against a rogue thats how the triangle was meant. You are suppose to always loose except if you are pro.

For the mages it is a slightly different story though they are in advantage against a rogue, due to rogues being speced to do high damage they aren't garanteed a kill if they meet a equally geared rogue but thats is the price for this:

PvE

Mages> Any class.


Please dont drown us!!

[keikali]

PvE

Mages> Any class.


Pretty much.

[Zeus]

You're missing a lot of critical components in regards to game mechanics and are making assumptions while missing a majority of game mechanics.

[Rare]

Oh yay. Another pvp thread

[Anarchist]

You're missing a lot of critical components in regards to game mechanics and are making assumptions while missing a majority of game mechanics.

I opened the thread to discuss about this matter so elighten us.
Please.

[Zeus]

I opened the thread to discuas about this matter so elighten us.
Please.

1. The maul is an arcane rarity weapon, it is supposed to be OP. STG would never nerf something that is bringing them money. Also, remember, the glaive is similar damage so where would the maul stand after nerf? The glaive price would go up and the maul price would dip.

2. A rogue's cons are having the weakest defensive skills & being the most expensive to maintain in regards to pot usage. Also, just like mages, they can be one hit pretty easily as well.

3. Mages will be lucky to kill even legendary geared warriors. Yes, the combat triangle exists, but it is heavily slanted in the warrior's favor. No, this is not because of their weapons but because of the crafting process which enhances their defensive skills like HoR and Juggernaut.

4. You say the combat triangle exists, but then say mages have the pay the price of being UP in PvP by being utter beasts in PvE. The same thing could be said for rogues too, no? They are both utter beasts in PvP as the Timed Runs leaderboard indicates. Yes, the combat triangle exists but right now, it is heavily favored towards warriors for reasons I have stated in point #3.

5. No Arcane Bow? What exactly do you expect rogues to use next cap? The point of an arcane weapon is to make the user a bad mama-jama, word on word from the developers. So, they are supposed to be OP with an arcane weapon. (Yes, I do agree with you that Kershal Scepter needs a buff - I don't view arcane staffs as threats in PvP).

This was all I could think of currently. Also, keep note that the way you format everything and illustrate your points makes it very confusing to understand what you're trying to say. I honestly still am not sure of what the point/meaning of this post was.

[Anarchist]

I am writing from a phone thats why the format isn't easy read oriented.

What i am trying to say is that mages don't need enhancement in anything except for their scepther.
Cause giving mages for example more defence or health will just make them too strong in Pve.
I never sayed mages loose because of wars weapons.

As for the maul i said they should nerfed cause they just unbalanced everything.
I know its a arcane weapon ecc but it makes wars to think they are rogues ergo forget their roles.
You can't give 1800 defence and nearly 6k health to a class and say i am doing this cause this is the tanking class then upon that still add to over 500 damage.

the proc is minus 50% armor +60str for real????

with a maul a warrior becomes perfect that low damage theory cease to exist

Back to reality i know the maul would never be nerfed.


As for the triangle i said it balanced things A BIT i know its not perfect but it wasn't created to be perfect. It was created to solve the problems caused by the balancement of the pve system so it can't be perfect.

Come to think about it isn't it strangly related the fact the best class in pve is the worst in pvp?

[Uzii]

I already feel drowned....

[Instanthumor]

I am writing from a phone thats why the format isn't easy read oriented.

What i am trying to say is that mages don't need enhancement in anything except for their scepther.
Cause giving mages for example more defence or health will just make them too strong in Pve.

As for the maul i said they should nerfed cause they just unbalanced everything.
I know its a arcane weapon ecc but it makes wars to think they are rogues ergo forget their roles.
You can't give 1800 defence and nearly 6k health to a class and say i am doing this cause this is the tanking class then upon that still add to over 500 damage.

the proc is minus 50% armor +60str for real????

with a maul a warrior becomes perfect that low damage theory cease to exist

Back to reality i know the maul would never be nerfed.

There's nothing wrong with the maul. As Zeus said, it is arcane rarity for a reason, and this is coming from a non-maul user (me).
Mages need an enhancement. This season is supposed to be the mage's season, if I am correct, yet we are ants to warriors and bait to rogues (especially when you're shield is on cd). I don't necessarily think warriors should be nerfed, instead, I think mages should be slightly buffed. The odds are against the mages in PvP, and who cares if they are only meant for 'crowd control', because they are not only made for crowd control. Elitefamily, why don't you quit your rogue account and create a mage account, then you will realize what we are talking about. Go figure.

[Solid]

AL is the wierdest MMORG, the tank class has a better heal than the SORCERER class.

Tf?

[Sky_is_epicgearz]

lets not bring the argument into the general discussion also 0.0 i mean there are about 4 threads already in suggestions and feedback

[Anarchist]

There's nothing wrong with the maul. As Zeus said, it is arcane rarity for a reason, and this is coming from a non-maul user (me).
Mages need an enhancement. This season is supposed to be the mage's season, if I am correct, yet we are ants to warriors and bait to rogues (especially when you're shield is on cd). I don't necessarily think warriors should be nerfed, instead, I think mages should be slightly buffed. The odds are against the mages in PvP, and who cares if they are only meant for 'crowd control', because they are not only made for crowd control. Elitefamily, why don't you quit your rogue account and create a mage account, then you will realize what we are talking about. Go figure.

I have a twink mage and i know that mages are weak in pvp everything equally geared to my mage kills it.
I dont fight with my rogue.

Personally i think the maul is just too op it defeats the purpose of the class balancement it is too offence oriented for a class that supposed to tank.

Pavise! pavise! thats is the correct weapon for a war so they stop playing rogues
.
Those fellas have to defend the others and tank not defend,tank, heal and also kill all the mobs.

[Bless]

I am writing from a phone thats why the format isn't easy read oriented.

What i am trying to say is that mages don't need enhancement in anything except for their scepther.
Cause giving mages for example more defence or health will just make them too strong in Pve.

As for the maul i said they should nerfed cause they just unbalanced everything.
I know its a arcane weapon ecc but it makes wars to think they are rogues ergo forget their roles.
You can't give 1800 defence and nearly 6k health to a class and say i am doing this cause this is the tanking class then upon that still add to over 500 damage.

the proc is minus 50% armor +60str for real????

with a maul a warrior becomes perfect that low damage theory cease to exist

Back to reality i know the maul would never be nerfed.

There's nothing wrong with the maul. As Zeus said, it is arcane rarity for a reason, and this is coming from a non-maul user (me).
Mages need an enhancement. This season is supposed to be the mage's season, if I am correct, yet we are ants to warriors and bait to rogues (especially when you're shield is on cd). I don't necessarily think warriors should be nerfed, instead, I think mages should be slightly buffed. The odds are against the mages in PvP, and who cares if they are only meant for 'crowd control', because they are not only made for crowd control. Elitefamily, why don't you quit your rogue account and create a mage account, then you will realize what we are talking about. Go figure. I do not think the mages need ANOTHER buff. They have been given several buffs in the past 5 months already, and rogues have been nerfed twice I believe (or was it once), point is, what do mages need more of?

Hp? Armor? Use arcane shield, if its on CD then deal with it cant have one of the best defence skills in the game with a 5sec cd can you.. if mages had good damage and good hp/armor there is no point of other classes

Damage? Already have the highest of any class

Mana? Nope 5k is enough

Crits, dodge? Mages have been buffed already in this section and anyways crits and dodge is utilised better for rogues.

And the second to last sentence, you follow that advice too :love_heart:

[xXz21]

warrior need nerf bcus have a visual 600 dmg? JAJAJAJA. have u tryed a warrior? make 400-600 dmg per skill a rogue make 3k warrior Skill shot 500 and with critic shot 500 too. i really don't think warriors need nerf theys really sucks in AL. a full mytic rogue vs full mytic warrior. the rogue is going to win. sure the sorc. are squishy too but warrior are not OP.

[Striderevil]

wow... really? Mages are fine as they are because they can effectively clear mobs? So am I to assume warriors and rogues can't do the same thing on a normal map while farming normal map bosses? But mages have to wait for a war or mage to kill fast or tank bosses so that they can get access to good level items as well. Sure they are useful in elite maps but it really sucks when a rogue and warrior can kill normal map bosses and mages can't even do that. In elite maps its nice that they can deal damage to mobs after the are aggro. towards a warrior and then to kill an elite boss they need a rogue. But mages are no heavily dependent on the other classes while the others can do it without mages. Most war and rogue parties clear just enough mobs to make the boss appear then run through the map and kill the boss. So whats the need of a squishy mage who drops a clock only to get killed by ranged mobs if war has no aggro. on?

You wan't fair? Let the mage class be able to freeze and root bosses and players and FB stun as consistently as Maul. Shield has knock back which is laughable. Nordr mobs the insect ones actually do knockback which throws the person across the screen. We don't need more damage or buffs. We need our skills to actually do what they were intended to so that DoT damage is actually effective. If our DoT damage for clock did the same rate of damage as war heal while rooting then we would be as effective in pvp as the other classes. Just a note other classes can escape movement impairing effects so it won't be an issue and kill would be ensured during times or cooldowns against the other classes.

[Instanthumor]

I have a twink mage and i know that mages are weak in pvp everything equally geared to my mage kills it.
I dont fight with my rogue.

Personally i think the maul is just too op it defeats the purpose of the class balancement it is too offence oriented for a class that supposed to tank.

Pavise! pavise! thats is the correct weapon for a war so they stop playing rogues
.
Those fellas have to defend the others and tank not defend,tank, heal and also kill all the mobs.

IMO, it is harder to kill a warrior with Glaive or Pavise, a warrior with maul is easier to beat.

[Instanthumor]

I do not think the mages need ANOTHER buff. They have been given several buffs in the past 5 months already, and rogues have been nerfed twice I believe (or was it once), point is, what do mages need more of?

Hp? Armor? Use arcane shield, if its on CD then deal with it cant have one of the best defence skills in the game with a 5sec cd can you.. if mages had good damage and good hp/armor there is no point of other classes

Damage? Already have the highest of any class

Mana? Nope 5k is enough

Crits, dodge? Mages have been buffed already in this section and anyways crits and dodge is utilised better for rogues.

And the second to last sentence, you follow that advice too :love_heart:

Another buff? What do you mean? Since when did mages ever get a buff? Tell me how rogues got nerfed, I really don't remember. Next, Arcane shield does not have a 5 second cooldown, in fact, it is more like 30 seconds.Besides, even if we do buff mage's hp and armor, they will still be horrible compared to a rogue or warrior's hp and armor.. Literally, we have horrible armor if rogues can 1 shot us. That shouldn't happen.. 4-5, is reasonable, but 1 shotting is too much. We do not have the highest dmg of any class (damage output, that is), you rogues do. No mage asked for 5k mana, if we got nerfed to 2k mana, I wouldn't care any less, it would not affect me at all. Us mages LIVE on crit, that is what we need to survive, and we have less than 7% dodge, even an arcane staff mage has approximately 4%.. Keep trying to nerf us, and please complain more. So far, nothing happened. At all.

[Sky_is_epicgearz]

I do not think the mages need ANOTHER buff. They have been given several buffs in the past 5 months already, and rogues have been nerfed twice I believe (or was it once), point is, what do mages need more of?

Hp? Armor? Use arcane shield, if its on CD then deal with it cant have one of the best defence skills in the game with a 5sec cd can you.. if mages had good damage and good hp/armor there is no point of other classes

Damage? Already have the highest of any class

Mana? Nope 5k is enough

Crits, dodge? Mages have been buffed already in this section and anyways crits and dodge is utilised better for rogues.

And the second to last sentence, you follow that advice too :love_heart:

Sorry to disrupt your flow of thoughts but the arcane shield lasts for 10 seconds provided it is not broken and has a cool down of 25 seconds. Therefore a 5 second cool down would mean unlimited spamming of the skill. Mages are well aware of the fact that it is by far one of the best defensive skill but then again no one is asking for a significant cool down time reduction.

I'm genuinely not sure what crit buff we have been given. Sorry I don't know, maybe it was a very long time ago. As far as I'm aware the last time I remember one of mages skills was changed it was to do with gale force with the push back which was later change to push forward.

QUOTE:
"if mages had good damage and good hp/armor there is no point of other classes"
This is a subjective comment :) and just wondering why would there be no point of other classes? Considering that warriors have high armour, damage, and health already (this makes them far more powerful then?).

If you ask me I'd happily let the nice people from STS take away half of my mana for something that will help my survivability. Yes, 5k is more than enough.

Hmmm I am not an arcane Mage however we usually have around 450 damage if we are full mythic + gun. That doesn't mean anything really because rogues crit like crazy so rogues really do more damage.

Sorry if I sounded like I was whining but I just wanted to remind you what mages are the weakest.
Lastly, I'm not sure if you agreed to it or said it somewhere but can you show me where it says that mages are a support class?

[xXz21]

I have a twink mage and i know that mages are weak in pvp everything equally geared to my mage kills it.
I dont fight with my rogue.

Personally i think the maul is just too op it defeats the purpose of the class balancement it is too offence oriented for a class that supposed to tank.

Pavise! pavise! thats is the correct weapon for a war so they stop playing rogues
.
Those fellas have to defend the others and tank not defend,tank, heal and also kill all the mobs.

this happen bcus warriors are the healer here.. and not the sorcerer.

the sorcerer can't heal have only 1 skill to heal and only work for mana. warriors heal better and normally in any game warrios can heal himself but not all.

pavise is not the weapond for warrior theys sucks with maul and with pavise theys don't do any dmg..

warriors need mace, greatsword, sword,shield (2 items diferent not sword + shield in same item) and spear that weaponds work good for a warrior.

but warrior don't need be only a tank, need be good to kill too. warrior vs sorc win warrior bcus sorc is not a good character bad bad healer.

heal skill should have a low cd. and shoul heal good but obviusly with a chance to kill him (the healer) with a rogue or a warrior..
but maul is not OP is better glaive. is more easy to kill a warrior with maul than glaive..

[Instanthumor]

this happen bcus warriors are the healer here.. and not the sorcerer.

the sorcerer can't heal have only 1 skill to heal and only work for mana. warriors heal better and normally in any game warrios can heal himself but not all.

pavise is not the weapond for warrior theys sucks with maul and with pavise theys don't do any dmg..

warriors need mace, greatsword, sword,shield (2 items diferent not sword + shield in same item) and spear that weaponds work good for a warrior.

but warrior don't need be only a tank, need be good to kill too. warrior vs sorc win warrior bcus sorc is not a good character bad bad healer.

heal skill should have a low cd. and shoul heal good but obviusly with a chance to kill him (the healer) with a rogue or a warrior..
but maul is not OP is better glaive. is more easy to kill a warrior with maul than glaive..

I'd like to say that I disagree with you about pavise being a bad weapon. It is not a bad weapon, and this goes for PvP as well.

[Instanthumor]

Sorry to disrupt your flow of thoughts but the arcane shield lasts for 10 seconds provided it is not broken and has a cool down of 25 seconds. Therefore a 5 second cool down would mean unlimited spamming of the skill. Mages are well aware of the fact that it is by far one of the best defensive skill but then again no one is asking for a significant cool down time reduction.


Mage's shield lasts for 15 sec MAX with the cooldown of 30 sec.. And 95% of the time, the shield breaks before 12 sec due to the massive damage output that rogues have.

[Sky_is_epicgearz]

Mage's shield lasts for 15 sec MAX with the cooldown of 30 sec.. And 95% of the time, the shield breaks before 12 sec due to the massive damage output that rogues have.

Lol I always thought it was 10 second. Thank you for the correction there :)

[Solid]

Another buff? What do you mean? Since when did mages ever get a buff? Tell me how rogues got nerfed, I really don't remember. Next, Arcane shield does not have a 5 second cooldown, in fact, it is more like 30 seconds.Besides, even if we do buff mage's hp and armor, they will still be horrible compared to a rogue or warrior's hp and armor.. Literally, we have horrible armor if rogues can 1 shot us. That shouldn't happen.. 4-5, is reasonable, but 1 shotting is too much. We do not have the highest dmg of any class (damage output, that is), you rogues do. No mage asked for 5k mana, if we got nerfed to 2k mana, I wouldn't care any less, it would not affect me at all. Us mages LIVE on crit, that is what we need to survive, and we have less than 7% dodge, even an arcane staff mage has approximately 4%.. Keep trying to nerf us, and please complain more. So far, nothing happened. At all.

Our crit has been needed every season at the start....

[Sceazikua]

PvE

Mages> Any class.

I can tell that you havent met any pro rogues or pro wars in PvE

[xXz21]

I'd like to say that I disagree with you about pavise being a bad weapon. It is not a bad weapon, and this goes for PvP as well.

u can test it. pavise vs glaive any diference in dmg u receive. pavise vs any weapon.

is not important to have 200 more def. is only maybe 10-20 diference in dmg. and ur dmg decrease so much.

[Madnex]

Another thread isn't going to change anything unless the case supported is built on correct and unbiased arguments.


There have been plenty debates of this kind already and on every single one your arguments were clearly and objectively disproven.


And stop with that "sorcs were made for PvE" just because overall we have better mob control skills, which as mentioned numerously before, DON'T work in PvP.

More importantly, no other trade offs for this amputation were given! Sorcs were made squishy because supposedly they had enough skills to keep the enemy at a safe distance. Now, it's like making light armored ranged and heavy armored melee fight in a box.


We're not necessary in PvE thanks to potions. So how exactly do you consider that fair and balanced when as class we simply cannot achieve the corresponding goal on PvP?

[Zeus]

I personally think that the stun immunity should be vastly reduced only for sorcerer skills.

[Rean]

Perhaps giving the Sorcerer a longer attacking range compared to that of Rogues and Warriors would be a good start. This increases our survivability somewhat as long as we are cautious enough, and will not cause too much inbalance be it PvE or PvP?

Having said that, me thinks the heal upgrades really really need a major revamp. Perhaps remove the +mana/+heal and instead change it to +range for all spells/reduce % mana for all spells cast/reduce % cool down for all spells?

Kindly consider.

[Anarchist]

Pvp isn' t balanced cause AL is Pve oriented . The fact that mages are weak in PvP is a result of the way game was created and the nature devs gave to mages. Crowd control high attack + weak defence that is a mage.

First of all Ctf wasn't created for one vs one fights, infact if you look at a 5vs5 fight mages play a fundamental role that is because of their nature in pvE, they can deal with large numbers of enemies. Taken the know how to play.

Any enhancement for mages in PvP with destroy the balance of PvE. If you have the same defence of a rogue, rogues will be useless in pvE idem if you have their same damage.
You cant have the defence of a war cause wars will become useless in pvE idem for their life.

The most important things in order are:

-Class differentiation.
-PvE balancement
-Ctf and TdM balancement

after these 3 there is a fourth that players invented

1vs1 balancement ergo 5th skill.
But these was never meant to exist ergo it tips the balance of the ctf and tdm to the wars side and slightly to mages side destroying the natural balance created, that then became:

war>>mage. (super wrong)
war>rogue. (wrong)
mage>rogue. (ok)

(There are obviuosly exceptions.)

[Haligali]

I do not think the mages need ANOTHER buff. They have been given several buffs in the past 5 months already, and rogues have been nerfed twice I believe (or was it once), point is, what do mages need more of?

Hp? Armor? Use arcane shield, if its on CD then deal with it cant have one of the best defence skills in the game with a 5sec cd can you.. if mages had good damage and good hp/armor there is no point of other classes

Damage? Already have the highest of any class

Mana? Nope 5k is enough

Crits, dodge? Mages have been buffed already in this section and anyways crits and dodge is utilised better for rogues.

And the second to last sentence, you follow that advice too :love_heart:

Beside some minor tweaks, (more crit on dot, ty curse kills me even more faster if i use dot subskills, etc) there was 2 huge sorcerer nerf only this season: one on arcane shield and one on mythic staffs.

[Slywannas]

IMO, it is harder to kill a warrior with Glaive or Pavise, a warrior with maul is easier to beat.

First of all, this is dead on. I can't begin to count the times glaive wars have given me more rough times in pvp then maulers.



this happen bcus warriors are the healer here.. and not the sorcerer.

the sorcerer can't heal have only 1 skill to heal and only work for mana. warriors heal better and normally in any game warrios can heal himself but not all.

pavise is not the weapond for warrior theys sucks with maul and with pavise theys don't do any dmg..

warriors need mace, greatsword, sword,shield (2 items diferent not sword + shield in same item) and spear that weaponds work good for a warrior.

but warrior don't need be only a tank, need be good to kill too. warrior vs sorc win warrior bcus sorc is not a good character bad bad healer.

heal skill should have a low cd. and shoul heal good but obviusly with a chance to kill him (the healer) with a rogue or a warrior..
but maul is not OP is better glaive. is more easy to kill a warrior with maul than glaive..

,,The sorcerer can' have only 1 skill to heal and work only on mana'' First of all, what exactly are you talking about here? Mage heal works on both hp and on mana. And don't rogues also have just 1 heal skill? And wars? And in all this talk about balancing things you want mages to have 2 heals? ,,In game warrior can heal himself and not all'' Imho this is even more inaccurate. Warrior ,,bubble'' is probably the most useful and at the same time THE most annoying skill to counter in the game. I'll give you that warriors need to be good to kill too, and that glaivers are harder to kill the maulers, but I won't agree on sorcerer being a bad healer. That heal if used properly can turn a whole pvp game around. Also I won't agree on that wars suck with pavisse. Sure it does take away the damage they do, but it's still a pretty good weapon. And new weapons are in no way needed for wars this season or next season, in fact, rogues are the ones that new a new arcane. Wars have a lot to choose from. Maul, glaive, entombeds, devourers, pavisse. We rogues only got Myth bow,razorbacks, and a devourer bow. Other bows just plain suck. And not to mention our arcane (hooks) are 26 and pretty much suck compared to the rest. And I'll agree with the rest of you that arcane staff needs a rewamp, because honestly, when it first came out I expected mages to be way too op. Maybe a bit more knockback or a slight increase in the proc to match the maul's usefuness of +60str. But not as in more int (mana) because 5k is more then enough, maybe more in terms of crit or others attributes increase.



I personally think that the stun immunity should be vastly reduced only for sorcerer skills.

This is also what needs to be done apart from the arcane staff rewamp.

[nelson131]

Agreed, shadow flare (charged scepter attack) sucks big time, maybe Make a super throwback like the spiders in nordor?
And yup, no one uses hooks they are lv 26..... (Seriously?) though I'll never buy one :grey: