Make Skills "Dodgeable" in PvP.

[Solid]

Obviously, this topic is controversial so no flaming.

Although rogues would benefit most from this, right now we are suffering most from it. Our highest stat is not working in PvP. It's like not having crit or whatnot.

BECAUSE this would be an advantage, there could be tradeoffs that could actually make PvP more balanced.

A trade off I think most people would accept is to give mages the best heal, maybe from 1% to 99% and to make lighting similar to AS (basically increase crit DMG).

Tanks? They are OP enough. But a slight base dodge boost could be acceptable.

Opinions?

[Zeus]

I think that's an idea that will make everybody happy, well, except for tanks as they get the short end of the stick. However, if you look at it - they also get the most advantage right now. So, by this idea, it is credible that mages might get the damage boost that they sorely need, as well as get their heal upgraded.

Tanks will be slightly more survivable & rogues will have their dodge working. So, instead of going all crit like rogues typically do this cap - people will have to choose for other stats like dodge. Do you want to be more survivable or have more damage?

Excellent suggestion!

[Cero]

Tank wont have the end of the stick they have rally cry(dodge buff, speed buff & armor buff(cant remmeber if its armor or reduced dmg). If dodge will be "fix" many would choose rally than juggernaut or they can get both for more immortality. Calculating the cd and duration stacking 3buffs will make warrior almost impossible to die.

Sorc dodge buff got replaced by armor buff. In the end, if we goung to ask to fix dodge they need some overhaul for each class. A huge work for balancing class that i doubt sts will go to.

[Ravager]

I agree. +1

[Instanthumor]

IMHO, we will have 8 skill slots first before this will happen.

[falmear]

If dodge can be used in PvP then people will just boost their dodge stat to the max and use pets that boost dodge like whim. I don't know what the upper limit for mages is but I know rogues can get up to 40% dodge or higher. So we are all going to stand around firing skills and missing half the time? To me this would be more frustrating that the other opponent got lucky and dodged your well timed aimed shot, fireball, axe throw. And lets not forget razor shield boosts dodge by 20% so for a rogue you are talking like 60% dodge or more depending on equipment choices and pet. With 60% dodge you are saying if I fire 5 attacks at you, 2 will only hit. I see this as a non-starter because dodge is way too high for rogue. If skills are dodgeable then you'd need to make more changes like decreasing rogue armor so the skills that do hit do more damage and nerfing rogue heal because you don't need as much healing because you're taking less damaging. Personally I wouldn't want to play PvP where you are just mostly hitting air. The fights would get long and boring and more based on luck then skill.

[Madnex]

59936
So wait, sorcs can hardly go by with no skills dodgeable and you want to make even that go away?


How does 30% more HP in a one time heal can balance PvP even if added as is a mystery.
As sorc, fact is, if you want to survive you will heal at 25-30% HP or else you're risking death before using it. So this trade is not fair from any perspective for sorcerers.

This could spice up things for rogue versus rogue fights and certainly give a hand to rogues facing the undying monsters with mauls called wars but this will effectively banish any remaining sane sorc from PvP.


I appreciate how fellow rogues endorse this idea but it's far from "excellent". Since our dodge is under 10, sorcs are not benefitting from this at all. Imagine how nice it would be if the small chance of actually beating a rogue 1v1 get down to zero. Any skill you dodge translates to end of the game right there.

How do you expect this to be approved when your dodge is over 35? Add a razor there and you can have your afternoon cup of tea while we try to deal damage. Seriously people, get real.

[Hoardseeker]

Do you want to be more survivable or have more damage?

Excellent suggestion!
So, It's a nerf for mages? There are rogues at lv36 with at least 35%Dodge! And for a sorc only 5-8% and now sorc won't dodge much and rogues does! They can also dodge the Mage skills! And mages got the lowest chance to dodge from a rogue skill?

[Limsi]

yes please! (runs away from the possible angry mob of sorcs). Tbh dodge seems to be really dodgy lol.

[phillyr]

yes please! (runs away from the possible angry mob of sorcs). Tbh dodge seems to be really dodgy lol.

LOL

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Zeus]

The balance here is to fix the sorcerer shield as well. Now, instead of it taking an x amount of damage by a given formula - have it act like the mana shield in PL.

What this does it for as long as the shield lasts, it will boost up your armor by a considerable amount and have damage attacks take away from your mana instead of your health.

So, this would also make sorcerers more survivable in turn.

Also, this would make pets like dodge debuffs more effective and invite new strategies.

As of right now, rogues choose crit, crit, and more crit. With the pathway that we are going, rogues will soon be able to crit every hit. I'm sure that mages will not want that to happen, correct?

So, what dodge will do is have a rogue choose between survivability or critical - making a healthy balance for both.

Also, keep in mind that I mentioned many sorcerer buffs to keep up with this.

As of right now, PL's method of PvP and the checks and balances of skills is much more balanced. Each class can kill the other class, even at the current state where PL is undergoing the most unbalanced PvP yet.

Just some food for thought,

~Zeus

[drgrimmy]

I can only see this fair if they remove the stun immunity from sorcerer's skills and return the movement effects to all sorcerer's skills to PvP. So yeah, may be fine if every fireball that hits stuns, every gale that hits knocks down, every frost that hits slows or freezes, clock actually roots and rogues/warriors cannot just pierce/skyward through it. So you say a major component of a rogues strength, dodge, is absent from PvP? I say the same is true for sorcerers. Our major strength, crowd control, is absent from PvP...

[Promagin]

I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity.

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note, insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds."

But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. And so, we've come to cash this check, a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice.

We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. And those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. And there will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead.

We cannot turn back.

There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their self-hood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating: "For Whites Only." We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until "justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream."¹

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. And some of you have come from areas where your quest -- quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive. Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed.

Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.

And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."2

This is our hope, and this is the faith that I go back to the South with.

With this faith, we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

And this will be the day -- this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:

My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.

Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride,

From every mountainside, let freedom ring!

And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true.

And so let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire.

Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York.

Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania.

Let freedom ring from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado.

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California.

But not only that:

Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia.

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee.

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi.

From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, and when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!3

[Solid]

I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.

Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity.

But one hundred years later, the Negro still is not free. One hundred years later, the life of the Negro is still sadly crippled by the manacles of segregation and the chains of discrimination. One hundred years later, the Negro lives on a lonely island of poverty in the midst of a vast ocean of material prosperity. One hundred years later, the Negro is still languished in the corners of American society and finds himself an exile in his own land. And so we've come here today to dramatize a shameful condition.

In a sense we've come to our nation's capital to cash a check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men as well as white men, would be guaranteed the "unalienable Rights" of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note, insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked "insufficient funds."

But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. And so, we've come to cash this check, a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice.

We have also come to this hallowed spot to remind America of the fierce urgency of Now. This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism. Now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. Now is the time to rise from the dark and desolate valley of segregation to the sunlit path of racial justice. Now is the time to lift our nation from the quicksands of racial injustice to the solid rock of brotherhood. Now is the time to make justice a reality for all of God's children.

It would be fatal for the nation to overlook the urgency of the moment. This sweltering summer of the Negro's legitimate discontent will not pass until there is an invigorating autumn of freedom and equality. Nineteen sixty-three is not an end, but a beginning. And those who hope that the Negro needed to blow off steam and will now be content will have a rude awakening if the nation returns to business as usual. And there will be neither rest nor tranquility in America until the Negro is granted his citizenship rights. The whirlwinds of revolt will continue to shake the foundations of our nation until the bright day of justice emerges.

But there is something that I must say to my people, who stand on the warm threshold which leads into the palace of justice: In the process of gaining our rightful place, we must not be guilty of wrongful deeds. Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must forever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again, we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force.

The marvelous new militancy which has engulfed the Negro community must not lead us to a distrust of all white people, for many of our white brothers, as evidenced by their presence here today, have come to realize that their destiny is tied up with our destiny. And they have come to realize that their freedom is inextricably bound to our freedom.

We cannot walk alone.

And as we walk, we must make the pledge that we shall always march ahead.

We cannot turn back.

There are those who are asking the devotees of civil rights, "When will you be satisfied?" We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their self-hood and robbed of their dignity by signs stating: "For Whites Only." We cannot be satisfied as long as a Negro in Mississippi cannot vote and a Negro in New York believes he has nothing for which to vote. No, no, we are not satisfied, and we will not be satisfied until "justice rolls down like waters, and righteousness like a mighty stream."¹

I am not unmindful that some of you have come here out of great trials and tribulations. Some of you have come fresh from narrow jail cells. And some of you have come from areas where your quest -- quest for freedom left you battered by the storms of persecution and staggered by the winds of police brutality. You have been the veterans of creative suffering. Continue to work with the faith that unearned suffering is redemptive. Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed.

Let us not wallow in the valley of despair, I say to you today, my friends.

And so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of "interposition" and "nullification" -- one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight; "and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together."2

This is our hope, and this is the faith that I go back to the South with.

With this faith, we will be able to hew out of the mountain of despair a stone of hope. With this faith, we will be able to transform the jangling discords of our nation into a beautiful symphony of brotherhood. With this faith, we will be able to work together, to pray together, to struggle together, to go to jail together, to stand up for freedom together, knowing that we will be free one day.

And this will be the day -- this will be the day when all of God's children will be able to sing with new meaning:

My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of thee I sing.

Land where my fathers died, land of the Pilgrim's pride,

From every mountainside, let freedom ring!

And if America is to be a great nation, this must become true.

And so let freedom ring from the prodigious hilltops of New Hampshire.

Let freedom ring from the mighty mountains of New York.

Let freedom ring from the heightening Alleghenies of Pennsylvania.

Let freedom ring from the snow-capped Rockies of Colorado.

Let freedom ring from the curvaceous slopes of California.

But not only that:

Let freedom ring from Stone Mountain of Georgia.

Let freedom ring from Lookout Mountain of Tennessee.

Let freedom ring from every hill and molehill of Mississippi.

From every mountainside, let freedom ring.

And when this happens, and when we allow freedom ring, when we let it ring from every village and every hamlet, from every state and every city, we will be able to speed up that day when all of God's children, black men and white men, Jews and Gentiles, Protestants and Catholics, will be able to join hands and sing in the words of the old Negro spiritual:

Free at last! Free at last!

Thank God Almighty, we are free at last!3

...

[Promagin]

...

Hmm?

[Madnex]

The balance here is to fix the sorcerer shield as well. Now, instead of it taking an x amount of damage by a given formula - have it act like the mana shield in PL.

What this does it for as long as the shield lasts, it will boost up your armor by a considerable amount and have damage attacks take away from your mana instead of your health.

So, this would also make sorcerers more survivable in turn.

Also, this would make pets like dodge debuffs more effective and invite new strategies.

As of right now, rogues choose crit, crit, and more crit. With the pathway that we are going, rogues will soon be able to crit every hit. I'm sure that mages will not want that to happen, correct?

So, what dodge will do is have a rogue choose between survivability or critical - making a healthy balance for both.

Also, keep in mind that I mentioned many sorcerer buffs to keep up with this.

As of right now, PL's method of PvP and the checks and balances of skills is much more balanced. Each class can kill the other class, even at the current state where PL is undergoing the most unbalanced PvP yet.

Just some food for thought,

~Zeus

You already have a healthy balance when you can get both dodge and critical to 40+ without significantly lacking in HP or damage. Even for non arcane rogue 30 dodge and 35 crit isn't hard to achieve.

I don't see how the suggested shield adjustment is going to save us from getting to be PvP punchbags all over. So unless shield takes -200% damage of each attack received from our mana pool, our MP would be depleted in the first few seconds. Whatever can crit us down to 10% will be devastating either way since after the shield breaks, we'd be sitting ducks without mana for skills.


Finally, how much more crit do you think you'll be allowed to get? The new expansion's armors and weapons are only going to enhance.. armor, HP and maybe boost damage and DPS. I don't think there's any sane dev out there who would allow rogues to further improve your already insane critical rates.

[Ravager]

The balance here is to fix the sorcerer shield as well. Now, instead of it taking an x amount of damage by a given formula - have it act like the mana shield in PL.

What this does it for as long as the shield lasts, it will boost up your armor by a considerable amount and have damage attacks take away from your mana instead of your health.

So, this would also make sorcerers more survivable in turn.

Also, this would make pets like dodge debuffs more effective and invite new strategies.

As of right now, rogues choose crit, crit, and more crit. With the pathway that we are going, rogues will soon be able to crit every hit. I'm sure that mages will not want that to happen, correct?

So, what dodge will do is have a rogue choose between survivability or critical - making a healthy balance for both.

Also, keep in mind that I mentioned many sorcerer buffs to keep up with this.

As of right now, PL's method of PvP and the checks and balances of skills is much more balanced. Each class can kill the other class, even at the current state where PL is undergoing the most unbalanced PvP yet.

Just some food for thought,

~Zeus

You already have a healthy balance when you can get both dodge and critical to 40+ without significantly lacking in HP or damage. Even for non arcane rogue 30 dodge and 35 crit isn't hard to achieve.

I don't see how the suggested shield adjustment is going to save us from getting to be PvP punchbags all over. So unless shield takes -200% damage of each attack received from our mana pool, our MP would be depleted in the first few seconds. Whatever can crit us down to 10% will be devastating either way since after the shield breaks, we'd be sitting ducks without mana for skills.


Finally, how much more crit do you think you'll be allowed to get? The new expansion's armors and weapons are only going to enhance.. armor, HP and maybe boost damage and DPS. I don't think there's any sane dev out there who would allow rogues to further improve your already insane critical rates.

Maybe adjust the shield to have an upgrade where it replenishes 1000 mana it breaks.

[Erdnase]

Ok, i just have to say no. Ill go on to say why though. The value of each skill would have to be greatly diminished for this to work. Talking in a mage/rogue vs rogue at least, the way it is now, one to two skill is usually the difference between winning and dying. If a player missed 2 or more skills in a row im certain they would die. If one or two skills didnt have such a great value between winning or dying, someone could miss a few at a time and still have a chance to recover and win. Yet, right now, battles would be just luck, with little to no skill. While some part of me would like to see this, i just dont think it will happen without major changes to the game.

[Zeus]

You already have a healthy balance when you can get both dodge and critical to 40+ without significantly lacking in HP or damage. Even for non arcane rogue 30 dodge and 35 crit isn't hard to achieve.

I don't see how the suggested shield adjustment is going to save us from getting to be PvP punchbags all over. So unless shield takes -200% damage of each attack received from our mana pool, our MP would be depleted in the first few seconds. Whatever can crit us down to 10% will be devastating either way since after the shield breaks, we'd be sitting ducks without mana for skills.


Finally, how much more crit do you think you'll be allowed to get? The new expansion's armors and weapons are only going to enhance.. armor, HP and maybe boost damage and DPS. I don't think there's any sane dev out there who would allow rogues to further improve your already insane critical rates.

Madnex,

First off, I have to say that I respect you so anything I am saying is not out of ill intent.

Secondly, you are looking at things far too theoretically. There's a lot of strategies that can be used here:

For example, what you are not considering is the huge boost in armor a mana shield gives as well as the increase in mana. Secondly, you can time a mana shield to come up after health has been depleted. So, a mage could go to death's edge and then use his mana shield as a second health bar. I hope that makes sense. At any rate, it would make sorcerers far more survivable than they are currently.

As for the versatility factor - the versatility I'm referring to is the pet. If you notice, all rogues these days go Samael for the stun and crit factor. However, this isn't exactly diverse. So, dodge pets which exist may increase in favor if skills could be dodged. Of course, the dodge pets that currently exist require one to sacrifice critical for the most part.

Lastly, you'd be surprised what the developers allow. If you take a look at PL - critical rates got beyond 100% there. I certainly do not doubt that they'll hit at least 60-70 crit here. When I last played SL, crit was pretty crazy there too! Rebalancing requires many resources, so it's something that developers do not usually take into account as history has shown. PL has required two rebalances - one at L50 cap and one at L76 cap. Heck, the L76 cap rebalance was half done and they actually left it worse than what it was before.

P.S: Keep in mind that dodge is not a percentage in their games. It has diminishing returns so it can never truly become as overpowered as critical.

[Zeus]

Ok, i just have to say no. Ill go on to say why though. The value of each skill would have to be greatly diminished for this to work. Talking in a mage/rogue vs rogue at least, the way it is now, one to two skill is usually the difference between winning and dying. If a player missed 2 or more skills in a row im certain they would die. If one or two skills didnt have such a great value between winning or dying, someone could miss a few at a time and still have a chance to recover and win. Yet, right now, battles would be just luck, with little to no skill. While some part of me would like to see this, i just dont think it will happen without major changes to the game.

Yes, I agree with you that just implementing this alone would skew the balance greatly in favor of rogues. However, I've mentioned many very potent counters to help people reconsider. :)

Also, this might change up gameplay as people may want to consider including debuff upgrades in their skill builds.

[Milan Lame Man]

As soon as I've seen the topic, I thought... how do you dodge an AoE skill? Not possible, right?
So how about making sorcerer's skill not dodgeable? That would give:
- sorc vs rog: small advantage to sorcerers (small dodge but works; dodge already works on autoattack (?))
- rog vs warr: advantage to rogues (but perhaps too much?)
- warr vs sorc: small disadvantage to warriors (same as sorc vs rog; sorry about smash guys)

From what I hear these adjustments are in the right direction, but perhaps not the right amount.
Anyway balancing it might take a good part of the next season.

[Madnex]

Madnex,

First off, I have to say that I respect you so anything I am saying is not out of ill intent.

Secondly, you are looking at things far too theoretically. There's a lot of strategies that can be used here:

For example, what you are not considering is the huge boost in armor a mana shield gives as well as the increase in mana. Secondly, you can time a mana shield to come up after health has been depleted. So, a mage could go to death's edge and then use his mana shield as a second health bar. I hope that makes sense. At any rate, it would make sorcerers far more survivable than they are currently.

As for the versatility factor - the versatility I'm referring to is the pet. If you notice, all rogues these days go Samael for the stun and crit factor. However, this isn't exactly diverse. So, dodge pets which exist may increase in favor if skills could be dodged. Of course, the dodge pets that currently exist require one to sacrifice critical for the most part.

Lastly, you'd be surprised what the developers allow. If you take a look at PL - critical rates got beyond 100% there. I certainly do not doubt that they'll hit at least 60-70 crit here. When I last played SL, crit was pretty crazy there too! Rebalancing requires many resources, so it's something that developers do not usually take into account as history has shown. PL has required two rebalances - one at L50 cap and one at L76 cap. Heck, the L76 cap rebalance was half done and they actually left it worse than what it was before.

P.S: Keep in mind that dodge is not a percentage in their games. It has diminishing returns so it can never truly become as overpowered as critical.
Alright first off, I appreciate the time you took to reply; it's probably the first logic-structured reply I've gotten past few weeks.


Yes, I do examine things as objectively as I can; I'm not saying it's always possible to get the facts clear without subconsciously favoring or disfavoring a class due to personal preferrences.


I do not believe anyone can set the level of how much theoritically we can examine things and estimate reactions from possible future changes. Of course there is a lot of strategical thinking to be done as to when the mana shield would be most effective but what you suggest --personally-- makes me think any sorc using it will have to watch out his mana consumption. Leaving it as a last protection means you will be getting much less than your max MP as secondary HP bar.


This could work if we were better at kitting than the other two classes. Problem is, with the current system of every class having such powerful healing skils, we aren't. Since our success is based on one skill (arcane shield) running and healing is not going to help since the cooldown is half a minute and without it death is imminent (approximately 4 seconds from a rogue and about 8 from a warrior).

Lifegiver=50-60%, one-time heal, 30 sec CD
Med packs=100%, self-heal + three packs of 30% HP each, 15 sec CD(?!)
Horn=70%, 4-5 seconds for healing to complete with 2 of them being invulnerable, 15 sec CD(!!!)


Lastly, yeah I've played SL as well and at level cap you can get up to 56 dodge on a commando and about 42 critical on operative (that's considering you want to survive in combat not flash your stats). I can tell you, dodge is way more useful since skills can be dodged there but sadly very OP. We're at a point where commandos can walk around and hit stuff without even caring even if it's 2v1 or more. You must've seen for yourself if you played anyway. I don't know to what extent we can compare the two games but at there every class could easily change set to support crit or dodge. Dodge over crit seems to be the majority's choice.

For implementing dodge on AL to be able to save you from any form of attack would require many things to change or supporting content to be added. People would still choose samuel for the sole fact he's OP, both in stat boosts he provides, the poison effect and the chance to stun. That is, unless a comparable arcane pet which supports dodge is created.

It'd be wiser and less time consuming to nerf the damage a rogue can deal --and respectively crit-- by skill-charging requirements. So you'd have to charge aimed shot to get the crit, damage and enemy armor shatter buffs.

I hope this wasn't very tiring to read.

[Erdnase]

@Zeus
Yes, and ive been thinking of possible solutions, unfortunately it seems they only lead to more problems. For instance, what happens to curse? If this skill was missed 2 or more times you would have 30+ seconds of a useless skill. I think many people wouldnt want to take this chance so curse would become a dead skill. If you lowered the cool down to compensate, curse would then become op in mage/warrior vs mage battles. It would just be curse after curse. I can go on, but you can see the idea. It would change the game quite a bit. I just think this would cause more trouble than the result would be worth.

[Zeus]

@Zeus
Yes, and ive been thinking of possible solutions, unfortunately it seems they only lead to more problems. For instance, what happens to curse? If this skill was missed 2 or more times you would have 30+ seconds of a useless skill. I think many people wouldnt want to take this chance so curse would become a dead skill. If you lowered the cool down to compensate, curse would then become op in mage/warrior vs mage battles. It would just be curse after curse. I can go on, but you can see the idea. It would change the game quite a bit. I just think this would cause more trouble than the result would be worth.

Actually, you're right. I didn't take into account the limited amount of skills in this game. In SL or PL, there's 8 or 12, respectively. Also, the more I think about it - regen rates aren't very OP in this game compared to the other games. So, if a skill gets dodged, regen won't be there to back you up. The mana bar that you have is basically the set amount of skills you can fire, with the use of Samael squeezing out one or two more skills.

@Mad
I'll get back to you once I've had my morning coffee, lol! I'm terribly hungover. :/

[Zeus]

Alright first off, I appreciate the time you took to reply; it's probably the first logic-structured reply I've gotten past few weeks.


Yes, I do examine things as objectively as I can; I'm not saying it's always possible to get the facts clear without subconsciously favoring or disfavoring a class due to personal preferrences.


I do not believe anyone can set the level of how much theoritically we can examine things and estimate reactions from possible future changes. Of course there is a lot of strategical thinking to be done as to when the mana shield would be most effective but what you suggest --personally-- makes me think any sorc using it will have to watch out his mana consumption. Leaving it as a last protection means you will be getting much less than your max MP as secondary HP bar.


This could work if we were better at kitting than the other two classes. Problem is, with the current system of every class having such powerful healing skils, we aren't. Since our success is based on one skill (arcane shield) running and healing is not going to help since the cooldown is half a minute and without it death is imminent (approximately 4 seconds from a rogue and about 8 from a warrior).

Lifegiver=50-60%, one-time heal, 30 sec CD
Med packs=100%, self-heal + three packs of 30% HP each, 15 sec CD(?!)
Horn=70%, 4-5 seconds for healing to complete with 2 of them being invulnerable, 15 sec CD(!!!)


Lastly, yeah I've played SL as well and at level cap you can get up to 56 dodge on a commando and about 42 critical on operative (that's considering you want to survive in combat not flash your stats). I can tell you, dodge is way more useful since skills can be dodged there but sadly very OP. We're at a point where commandos can walk around and hit stuff without even caring even if it's 2v1 or more. You must've seen for yourself if you played anyway. I don't know to what extent we can compare the two games but at there every class could easily change set to support crit or dodge. Dodge over crit seems to be the majority's choice.

For implementing dodge on AL to be able to save you from any form of attack would require many things to change or supporting content to be added. People would still choose samuel for the sole fact he's OP, both in stat boosts he provides, the poison effect and the chance to stun. That is, unless a comparable arcane pet which supports dodge is created.

It'd be wiser and less time consuming to nerf the damage a rogue can deal --and respectively crit-- by skill-charging requirements. So you'd have to charge aimed shot to get the crit, damage and enemy armor shatter buffs.

I hope this wasn't very tiring to read.

First off, I need to clarify one thing?

You stated that life giver has a 30 second cool down. Are you sure? I swear that all the heal spells throughout all classes had the same cool down: 15 seconds.

Secondly, as I told Erd, the more I think about the possibilities of having skills given the ability to dodge, the less optimal it seems. The post that I replied to Erd explains this.

So, where are we at now? What can we do and give to sorcerers that will give them the boost that they need without making them more OP than the other classes.

Earlier, I suggested reducing their stun immunity. Something that many people do not know is stuns can be dodged. So, dodge is not entirely a useless stat. Actually, as dodge increases - the stun immunity will be not needed as much. When rogues hit 60 dodge or so, dodge really shows that stuns can be avoided. Heck, when I use whims - a fireball stun will hit me about 50% of the time. So, reducing the stun immunity to compensate for the increase in dodge (which makes one skill, fireball, more likely to be dodged) seems like a well balanced idea.

What are your thoughts?

[Solid]

A hit % system could be implemented as well.

[drgrimmy]

Earlier, I suggested reducing their stun immunity. Something that many people do not know is stuns can be dodged. So, dodge is not entirely a useless stat. Actually, as dodge increases - the stun immunity will be not needed as much. When rogues hit 60 dodge or so, dodge really shows that stuns can be avoided. Heck, when I use whims - a fireball stun will hit me about 50% of the time. So, reducing the stun immunity to compensate for the increase in dodge (which makes one skill, fireball, more likely to be dodged) seems like a well balanced idea.

Yeah, this is part of the reason why I abandoned a "stunlock" type of build. I feel as though the stun of fireball and panic of slag/Clyde is really avoided quite frequently now making the old traditional fire, light, shield, life build of a mage not really that effective anymore. Probably just one of the many reasons why sorcerers are starting to abuse 5 skills. Thanks for bringing this up, because I also felt as though the stun of fireball was being dodged and was quite surprised when it was mentioned that skills cannot be dodged.

[Madnex]

First off, I need to clarify one thing?

You stated that life giver has a 30 second cool down. Are you sure? I swear that all the heal spells throughout all classes had the same cool down: 15 seconds.

Secondly, as I told Erd, the more I think about the possibilities of having skills given the ability to dodge, the less optimal it seems. The post that I replied to Erd explains this.

So, where are we at now? What can we do and give to sorcerers that will give them the boost that they need without making them more OP than the other classes.

Earlier, I suggested reducing their stun immunity. Something that many people do not know is stuns can be dodged. So, dodge is not entirely a useless stat. Actually, as dodge increases - the stun immunity will be not needed as much. When rogues hit 60 dodge or so, dodge really shows that stuns can be avoided. Heck, when I use whims - a fireball stun will hit me about 50% of the time. So, reducing the stun immunity to compensate for the increase in dodge (which makes one skill, fireball, more likely to be dodged) seems like a well balanced idea.

What are your thoughts?
About your first point, you're right the cooldown of lifegiver is 15 seconds for all three healing skills. I probably mixed it with arcane shield cooldown when I was switching alts to verify the rest of the statistics.


Well although correct, the use of stuns isn't something the sorcerer can put more weight on; the fight's outcome is judged by the correct use of arcane shield and heal. So I don't believe reducing the stun immunity can compensate for 2/5 skills thrown to rogues vanish into thin air.


The sorc's skills are not equipped with many upgrades that make them stun; apart from the classic fireball, only lighting has a 1/4 chance to stun. Note that both of those skills need charging in order to bring out their possibility to stun, something that pretty much narrows our stuns to one --a "certain" fireball stun-- since charging a second attacking skill while in immediate range is a waste of time.


Charged lighting cannot be trusted in any case for stunning purposes. Being limited to two attacking skills with such a high rate of dealing much less than what the skill damage suggests --if skills do become dodgable-- is just going to end the fight with the rogue having full HP.


So overall, having a real possibility to dodge a large part of what's thrown at you, any strategy is unsafe since every one of the limited skills is a key. For example, if fireball stun is dodged, it's probably game over. Ice falls in the same category since it's the only means to prevent a rogue from reaching his/her fairly closeby medic packs. Without lighting aka sorc's best damage dealer, there's no hope to even reach 30% on the enemy's HP bar.




On another note, I've had my hopes slightly upped lately versus rogues lately when I started using a ranged combo of attacking skills. I don't think I saw any rogue escaping the fireball's stun, be it arcane user or not. What still can't be dealt with is the warrior 1v1; we're having undergeared wars rampaging over smurfs, thinking they own the game or something.


Highly annoying when their strategy consists of moving over to the weakest target (you guessed it, that's sorc) spamming everything tap-able on their UI and using horn to safely heal back to 60-70% while still beating the socks out of anything and stacking stun over stuns. Two warriors can beat in 2v2 any other class combination by plainly alternating horn heals. Even if it becomes 2v3.


A small parenthesis input here: a warrior with arcane maul and samael managed to beat one arcane and one mythic sorc (me) naked. A lot of times. Closing parenthesis.


The strange thing is, fireball stuns have been failing pretty frequently on wars. Stuns being dodgable certainly explains some things but I'm consfused over why this is working in favor of wars and not rogues.

Thanks for reading.

[The mage of fire / ice]

Help im leve 16 mage and i want to no what skills to u for pvp mage

[Zeus]

About your first point, you're right the cooldown of lifegiver is 15 seconds for all three healing skills. I probably mixed it with arcane shield cooldown when I was switching alts to verify the rest of the statistics.


Well although correct, the use of stuns isn't something the sorcerer can put more weight on; the fight's outcome is judged by the correct use of arcane shield and heal. So I don't believe reducing the stun immunity can compensate for 2/5 skills thrown to rogues vanish into thin air.


The sorc's skills are not equipped with many upgrades that make them stun; apart from the classic fireball, only lighting has a 1/4 chance to stun. Note that both of those skills need charging in order to bring out their possibility to stun, something that pretty much narrows our stuns to one --a "certain" fireball stun-- since charging a second attacking skill while in immediate range is a waste of time.


Charged lighting cannot be trusted in any case for stunning purposes. Being limited to two attacking skills with such a high rate of dealing much less than what the skill damage suggests --if skills do become dodgable-- is just going to end the fight with the rogue having full HP.


So overall, having a real possibility to dodge a large part of what's thrown at you, any strategy is unsafe since every one of the limited skills is a key. For example, if fireball stun is dodged, it's probably game over. Ice falls in the same category since it's the only means to prevent a rogue from reaching his/her fairly closeby medic packs. Without lighting aka sorc's best damage dealer, there's no hope to even reach 30% on the enemy's HP bar.




On another note, I've had my hopes slightly upped lately versus rogues lately when I started using a ranged combo of attacking skills. I don't think I saw any rogue escaping the fireball's stun, be it arcane user or not. What still can't be dealt with is the warrior 1v1; we're having undergeared wars rampaging over smurfs, thinking they own the game or something.


Highly annoying when their strategy consists of moving over to the weakest target (you guessed it, that's sorc) spamming everything tap-able on their UI and using horn to safely heal back to 60-70% while still beating the socks out of anything and stacking stun over stuns. Two warriors can beat in 2v2 any other class combination by plainly alternating horn heals. Even if it becomes 2v3.


A small parenthesis input here: a warrior with arcane maul and samael managed to beat one arcane and one mythic sorc (me) naked. A lot of times. Closing parenthesis.


The strange thing is, fireball stuns have been failing pretty frequently on wars. Stuns being dodgable certainly explains some things but I'm consfused over why this is working in favor of wars and not rogues.

Thanks for reading.

Mad,

I think you got slightly confused. I'm saying to reduce stun immunity for sorcerers without changing anything for rogues. This should balance the triangle a bit more.

Secondly, in regards to a warrior avoiding your fireball stun - that is the effects of Juggernaut. On a warrior, a charged juggernaut results in stun invulnerability, as well as any other movement dampening effects. So, to avoid this, I would recognize the visual effects of juggernaut so you know when to stun and when not to stun. :)

[Madnex]

Well yes, admittably I am indeed confused. So is there a final idea of what should be buffed and what not? Is it me being tired or are you suggesting a sorc nerf alone? It's become hunting seasons for wars and you all can guess at who the lower edge of the shotgun is point at the moment.


And yeah I've been watching out but there's really nothing much to be done. No matter how hard you hit, how much you wait to time your combo or how many crits on skills you get, the warrior simply hits a horn at 20% and then skysmashes 25% of sorc HP while he's almost full again. To reach 20% you need crit. Sorc's damage dealing ratio is comfortably bearable for the warrior. Sky and axe throw really mean no way to escape the frequent stuns and quick dmg anyway. Avoiding is kind of out of the question since no one uses gale, as well. Running away is probably zeroing that little 2 seconds invulnerability anyway and who can afford to waste that. What's left? Tanking until the right opportunity comes doesn't quite work. Not entirely on topic but I've yet to see any sorc beat an equally geared war. Late response, somehow this didn't go through the first time.

[Alhuntrazeck]

And yeah I've been watching out but there's really nothing much to be done. No matter how hard you hit, how much you wait to time your combo or how many crits on skills you get, the warrior simply hits a horn at 20% and then skysmashes 25% of sorc HP while he's almost full again. To reach 20% you need crit. Sorc's damage dealing ratio is comfortably bearable for the warrior. Sky and axe throw really mean no way to escape the frequent stuns and quick dmg anyway. Avoiding is kind of out of the question since no one uses gale, as well. Running away is probably zeroing that little 2 seconds invulnerability anyway and who can afford to waste that. What's left? Tanking until the right opportunity comes doesn't quite work. Not entirely on topic but I've yet to see any sorc beat an equally geared war.

Recently my warrior with tarloks and dev maul plus epic ring and amulet killed a full mythic mage in a 1v1. This should mean somehing shouldn't it? I'm not sure what exactly should be done to solve this, but it is a problem...a mage has 0% chance to kill a warrior with even a smidgen of skill.