Can someone explain the benefits of "dual specing" pls

[derricks2]

I just hit 50 and I am a pure dex bird.

I see all these specs for "paly" etc and itn birds or str birds or int bears etc...

My question is .. why? Is the the armor that you can wear? Is that it? Stats themselves seem to really do very little, so why duel spec? Does the armor/weapons make THAT much difference? Does couple points of armor make a huge difference?

Please explain.. I like lots of numbers so be detailed if you can..

[RedRyder]

No numbers from me,
But it's like having the best of both worlds. I dual wield full cosmos and rift (I'm a Mage).
With a full Cosmo set up, my ints obviously higher thus making my skills more powerful (stat driven skills)
Whilst the rift set up gives me armor for things such as rushing and actually staying alive in a boss fight.

I love my Mage, but pure mages are too squishy (die too easily) so my dual wield let's me play the support role and actually get some damage in.

[FluffNStuff]

For me it is about the fun with my bear. I LOVE my hammer but I also LOVE my mega blaster, so I get to use both.

[derricks2]

Ok, but like.. I see in PvP forum say that int mages are cake, but a paly(which I take to be a mage with str too) are impossible to kill. Thats a pretty dramatic change... what is causing that change? Why go from easy kill to unkillable by changing a few stat points around. Does AR really change things THAT much? What gives?

[Lesrider]

What changes it is the fact that you can wear str items, which give more armor than int items. So more survivability than an int Mage.

[Superzarop]

Str gear: very high armor, used for surviving and tanking.
Dex gear: low armor, long range and high dps.
Int gear: very low armor, medium long range, totally ****.

[derricks2]

What changes it is the fact that you can wear str items, which give more armor than int items. So more survivability than an int Mage.

I get that part,but looking at level 50 gear, I see that leather and cloth have anywhere between 31-35 armor and plate has anywhere between 36-39 armor.

does 2 or 3(or even 5) armor points make all that much difference?? Ok Mirage robe of the cosmos has 36 armor. Power armor of the rift is str and it gives 44 armor. Does 8 armor mean THAT much? Is 1 armor = 1% less damage taken? I didnt think it was a direct 1:1 ratio, and if its not even if its 2:1 (2 armor = 1% less dmg taken) then that 8, and another 8 from helm.. and maybe 9 more changing to shield from an Eye... thats 25(25/2 = 12.5%) so 12.5% less damage taken? Thats not really a lot when people are taking 500-600 hp in a 2 second combo.

Am I missing something ?? The mods are about the same going from str to int from what I can see looking. The biggest difference is that STR armor has more defense, but not by a lot... again at the highest level.. 8-9 pts per piece..

In my head, I could get 34 from shield, 44 from chest, 29 from helm with str gear. Thats 107 armor. Not counting any bonus from the Str itself. So it cant be a 1:1 ratio because thats 100% dmg reduction.

thats what I mean about numbera.. it just doesnt seem like a total of 25-34 points of armor take a useless int mage to a invincible pally mage in pvp...

[Ellyidol]

I get that part,but looking at level 50 gear, I see that leather and cloth have anywhere between 31-35 armor and plate has anywhere between 36-39 armor.

does 2 or 3(or even 5) armor points make all that much difference?? Ok Mirage robe of the cosmos has 36 armor. Power armor of the rift is str and it gives 44 armor. Does 8 armor mean THAT much? Is 1 armor = 1% less damage taken? I didnt think it was a direct 1:1 ratio, and if its not even if its 2:1 (2 armor = 1% less dmg taken) then that 8, and another 8 from helm.. and maybe 9 more changing to shield from an Eye... thats 25(25/2 = 12.5%) so 12.5% less damage taken? Thats not really a lot when people are taking 500-600 hp in a 2 second combo.

Am I missing something ?? The mods are about the same going from str to int from what I can see looking. The biggest difference is that STR armor has more defense, but not by a lot... again at the highest level.. 8-9 pts per piece..

In my head, I could get 34 from shield, 44 from chest, 29 from helm with str gear. Thats 107 armor. Not counting any bonus from the Str itself. So it cant be a 1:1 ratio because thats 100% dmg reduction.

thats what I mean about numbera.. it just doesnt seem like a total of 25-34 points of armor take a useless int mage to a invincible pally mage in pvp...

How are you doubting les who's a more experienced player than you are? If your convinced your right don't dual spec then.

Armor is not a 1:1 ratio to damage %, but damage taken. It's easier to look at it as 1 armor = 1 damage. So your extra armor with strength items remove that much damage.

Also the rift set bonus gives quite a bit of armor and health, like you said 107 armor from pieces alone, my pally gets 134 armor with full rift on. Thats a 27 armor increase, incuding the str points i put in, but excluding the amount of hp you gain.

Think of it this way, with a rift bear, imagine him tanking with no armor buffs etc. Now put that armor on a mage with heal. You dont even have to wait til 50 to try it out, lower level pallys are as good.

[Inching]

dual is just more fun and something to do cause we r lvl 50 and nothing else to do except try stuff.....

[Conradin]

lol 44 and 36 armor are a huge difference when you dont have much armor to start with. though i have 93 armor on my intbear-and i dual str and int. besides, its fun

[derricks2]

How are you doubting les who's a more experienced player than you are? If your convinced your right don't dual spec then.


Ok, I think you are totally misunderstanding me here. I am not doubting Les at all, I totally believe that the duel specing str/int on a mage and wearing STR armor makes the paly super strong. My whole point here is I want to understand WHY.

Ive been playing MMORPGs since 1997 with ultima online. I have played tons of MMOs and I am always trying to find something new or different. I dont want to just copy what I read online and have no idea WHY it works. I have to understand why. If their was a page that explained every equation for this game, I would have looked and be able to understand the big difference 20 armor makes.

As I said before, if anyone knows, please give me figures. I am trying to figure out WHY 20 or 30 armor points can take a int mage into a unstoppable paly. What does that 30 armor do? Is it simply (Damage received - armor rating), or is it a %%, like every 2 armor points reduce damage by 1% =(Damage taken * [{100 - (Armor / 2)} * .01]) . This is kinda what I want. The reason is I want to know how and why this works so I can apply this to other characters. Also when changes are made to game mechanics, like stats and stuff, I can apply that to what I know, and possibly create a new type of dual spec char.

All in all, I want to be the guy who MAKES a new character spec, not the guy that reads and copys what other people do without understanding why it even works.

So like I said, I believe that what Les says it 100% true.. I am asking "why" its true.. what makes it true.. not guessing, but who knows why 30 or 50 armor takes someone from weak to unstoppable..

[Ellyidol]

To be honest, compared to the other games I've played with concrete formulas to damage, armor, etc, this game doesn't have any.

Like I said, easiest way to tell is 1 armor = 1 damage. Twinktastical did some tests before that came out with 5/8 ratio I think, but then again nothing final.

As to why, it's really the strength armors that make all the difference. That small armor difference to you is pretty huge, 50 armor more is 50 less damage taken. Pretty good IMO especially with how mobs are weaker now.

[Pharcyde]

Ok, but like.. I see in PvP forum say that int mages are cake, but a paly(which I take to be a mage with str too) are impossible to kill. Thats a pretty dramatic change... what is causing that change? Why go from easy kill to unkillable by changing a few stat points around. Does AR really change things THAT much? What gives?

Reason bears have such high armor in the gear is because of how crappy their damage is. Now mages are the opposite, they inflict massive damage but get crapped all over armor wise. So when you combine both worlds you get a unstoppable killing machine.

[Ellyidol]

Also, I get what you mean with wanting to really build a good build, but right now with just 3 stat points to play with, along with gears that don't really differ from each other, there's no big difference between characters really. If you do experiment with builds and use different item sets, you'd probably end up weaker than the generic builds because of how the item sets are really the most elite items in game.

I wish there were more builds, but right now this is all that's available. The only more complex stat building I know is the better boosting of stats rather than just a pure dual spec. There's a discussion on it and a few build suggestions in my sig.

[Pharcyde]

I wish there were more builds, but right now this is all that's available. The only more complex stat building I know is the better boosting of stats rather than just a pure dual spec. There's a discussion on it and a few build suggestions in my sig.

Agreed. Not only would more builds add to the playable ability of players it would create in game culture and in game pride. Everyone running around in the same exact builds and armors is equivalent to a black and white world full of robots with no emotion.

[derricks2]

Agreed. Not only would more builds add to the playable ability of players it would create in game culture and in game pride. Everyone running around in the same exact builds and armors is equivalent to a black and white world full of robots with no emotion.

Which is one of the reasons I have a post asking for more skill in the General Forum. Having a 2nd tab of skills that are the same for each class. General skills that you can spend your points on, passive skills like +5% dex per lvl, 5% int per level, 5% str per level, -0.1 attack speed per level, +10 healing effects per level, +5% armor per level, +3% damage per level(skills and auto attack), +2% crit per level, +2% dodge per level, +2 mr/s per level, +2 hr/s per level.. I can go on and on this allows people to spec differently. Same pool of skill points, but you can specialize your character. You can use armor and weapons that you normally wouldnt and use a couple skill points to make up for what you lose, thus, making you a little stronger. It allows for a lot more diversity AND its pretty simple to implement since its only 1 total skill tree to create since all classes will choose from the same tree(vs having to create 12 new skills for each class).

[Ellyidol]

Yeah, that would definitely make the game more interesting. Though I was thinking what was keeping them from doing so, and I think the game itself, along with the mechanics needed to run it etc, is already quite complicated. Thats what I think, I don't really know since I have no idea how they brought about the game.

Also, might the rating G have something to do with it? A game too complicated might just cater to the more experienced gamers? Again, I don't know. :P

[derricks2]

Yeah, that would definitely make the game more interesting. Though I was thinking what was keeping them from doing so, and I think the game itself, along with the mechanics needed to run it etc, is already quite complicated. Thats what I think, I don't really know since I have no idea how they brought about the game.

Also, might the rating G have something to do with it? A game too complicated might just cater to the more experienced gamers? Again, I don't know. :P

Maybe, but the 2nd skill tree of simple passive buffs that you dont have to activate wouldnt complicate things, or make the game engine work any harder. Just like weapons and armor change your stats, so would the buffs, but the game wouldnt have to constantly recalculate them since the buff is not a "reactive" buff, but a passive buff.

That change should be pretty simple to implement(compared to alternatives), and not to hard on the engine, and shouldn't be terribly difficult to understand. /shrug. It could just be the devs want to go a different direction. They also could set that you have to be level 25 to start using those second skills to make sure players have a grasp of the game before choosing more complicated templates?? who knows.

[FluffNStuff]

To be honest, compared to the other games I've played with concrete formulas to damage, armor, etc, this game doesn't have any.

Like I said, easiest way to tell is 1 armor = 1 damage. Twinktastical did some tests before that came out with 5/8 ratio I think, but then again nothing final.

As to why, it's really the strength armors that make all the difference. That small armor difference to you is pretty huge, 50 armor more is 50 less damage taken. Pretty good IMO especially with how mobs are weaker now.

It is a 1-1. Twinks tests were done in PVP where the damage has been modified so fights last longer then .5 seconds.

[FluffNStuff]

So four rift over four cosmos = 22-27 More armor.
Four Cosmos over four rift = 12 m/s and 8 h/s
Hmm, need more info. So the question I have is on average, how often do you get hit per second. Like in a five minute run, how many hits do you usually take? If people can get an idea of that and post, we can figure this out.

[derricks2]

It is a 1-1. Twinks tests were done in PVP where the damage has been modified so fights last longer then .5 seconds.

So by 1-1 do you mean 1 armor = 1% dmg reduced, or 1 armor = 1 damage reduced.

So if its 1armor = 1dmg reduced then technically, I should be able to take off all my armor and let 1 level 1 mob hit me and record the damage. Then put on armor that = the highest damage done to me(so if the mob dmg was 15-25 range I would put on 25 armor) and the mob would never do any damage.. the damage would be (ran(15,25) - armor(25)) which would be <= 0 every hit. Right?

[FluffNStuff]

So by 1-1 do you mean 1 armor = 1% dmg reduced, or 1 armor = 1 damage reduced.

So if its 1armor = 1dmg reduced then technically, I should be able to take off all my armor and let 1 level 1 mob hit me and record the damage. Then put on armor that = the highest damage done to me(so if the mob dmg was 15-25 range I would put on 25 armor) and the mob would never do any damage.. the damage would be (ran(15,25) - armor(25)) which would be <= 0 every hit. Right?

Ran the test to make sure.
Naked = 11 armor = 18-25 damage
17 Armor = 11-18
23 Armor = 6-12
32 Armor = 6-12
34 Armor = 5-7
43 Armor = 5-7
83 Armor = 5-7
114 Armor = 5-7

So it looks like the mobs have a 'minimum' damage regardless of Armor, as once your armor is higher then their hit, they still do damage.

[derricks2]

Ran the test to make sure.
Naked = 11 armor = 18-25 damage
17 Armor = 11-18
23 Armor = 6-12
32 Armor = 6-12
34 Armor = 5-7
43 Armor = 5-7
83 Armor = 5-7
114 Armor = 5-7

So it looks like the mobs have a 'minimum' damage regardless of Armor, as once your armor is higher then their hit, they still do damage.

I ran the same test lol. I did with 7, 10, 16, 22 and 31(didnt go above as it seemed to have floor of 5-7)

I did 20 hit averages and it did seem to be a 1 armor = 1 dmg reduced. I still am not really sure how that makes palys to powerful in pvp when people are doing SO much damage in 1 comb/hit that reducing by 150(when they are dealing 500+) is so much different than reducing it by 100. At low levels, its a huge difference. This is GOOD information to know though.