Give tank bears their jobs back

[Kujen]

I posted this in reply to a thread about paladins, but I think it deserves its own thread.

No offense to the pallys out there, it's a great build for survival, but I'm beginning to think they're overrated as group tanks. My bird gets a lot of aggro, and since nobody plays their bears anymore, nobody can taunt the mobs to gain aggro. Paladins can't taunt like the bears. If there is a bear, it's probably a dex bear who won't taunt anyway. So as my bird, I often end up tanking when I don't want to, due to my DPS.

I really just something would be done to make bears desired in groups again! Give them their jobs back lol

My bear has a full rift set and can hold aggro pretty well I think. Yet when I join games as my bear, I always have this feeling like I might get booted, nobody will want me. Bears used to be desired, like in Crush the Keeper for instance, for their crowd control and tanking abilities. It was harder to get through without one.

The game has been made so much easier, that all you really need are mages and birds. Bears just slow a group down now because of their low DPS. Something should be done to make the bear class more useful, because they just are not as enjoyable to play anymore. They need to have a bigger role in groups again.

[Gamelova]

Yeah True, I'm on mostly my mage now lol!

[jonboy]

Yea the bears do need some love.

[KingFu]

Bears need to be SLIGHTLY improved, without improving str bird or pally. The 2 most op classes in game right now. Coming from a pvper, bears don't suck, just most people can't play them. I've played suicidekings, and iamlone, and I'm gonna play res when he hits 50. They're not overpowered. Just most people think all they need to be a bear is a rift set, most can't play them. Since bears take strategies and tactic to play, there are easy way outs to avoid requiring tactics and or strategies. Become a str bird or pally. Im not gonna sit here and say how op they are, not everyone that is a pally or str bird has no skill, strategies, or aren't good pvpers in general. I see many good pallys and str birds as players all around. In all honesty though, they are much too easy to play. Literally str bird only requires you to hit button. Most str birds I know don't even have a combo, they just mash the screen, and they aren't bad pvpers at all. Pally is a little more skill requires since you need to know combos bur honestly, a few minutes on forums and you'll be a decent pally, yet you'll own most things. Again, I'm saying this as a used to be pally and a used to be str bird. I've been them both, and pvped with them both. Both were fairly easy to pick up, and both owned almost all pures. Which proves they're op considering they're hybrid but eh, I don't see anything happening to them sadly. This is worse than the bow bears IMO.

[Kujen]

Sorry I should point out, I am really just addressing pve. I don't pvp much so I don't have a lot of knowledge about how bears fare there. But in pve right now, nobody wants them in their group. They used to have a class role and now they don't. And I think that should be rectified.

[Seratonin]

When bears are played right, they are useful. I boot all dexbears. Ibeatface is an outstanding bear. He will be good in any group.

[Kossi]

dont worry, theyll come out of hibernation sooner or later

[icantgetkills]

I had a level 50 mage and bird had no intension on leveling a bear... But I did and I was on him 24/7 when this update came out pallies were just so much better :( and no one wanted my bear anymore don't I packed up his rift shifted it to my mage and now I have a bear 50k worth of gear when they get some tanking back hopefully before the level 55 cap I'll use him again

[EricB]

lol wow so many complains about bears... This really need to be fixed in 1.6!

[KingFu]

lol wow so many complains about bears... This really need to be fixed in 1.6!

They won't, 1.5 has been submitted already.

[omnipresence]

If you increase the difficulty of mobs and give bears class specific armor that counteracts that difficulty increase, it should make bears valuable again. I love my Mage but it seems funny that I can be in a group of 3 mages and easily run through AO2.

[ciss]

yea, bears do need some love back! Still I love to play my bear though and after a random run, I always end up with friends requests, so... I guess a bear is still appreciated.
Well, they need some more attention though, pallies have taken their spot lately.

[SuicideKings]

Hm interesting topic... As far as Pvp goes, yes bears may be extremely underpowered because of the change is health and mana from the re-balanced (unbalanced) update. Yes this may have been a good thing because change is good once in a while. Before than dex bears were unstoppable. PVM-wise bears are actually very useful...but...you only need 1 in the group, which kind of contradicts its usefulness. PVP-wise fighting paladins or warbirds can be frustrating, especially when they say their health is full. Dex birds and mages on the other hand can fall with one successful combination. One day we will be back to rule the PVP arenas. And thanks Mystical for the compliment, you're a very worthy opponent yourself.

[TwinkTastical]

Devs wont, cause it takes skill, nothing in this game takes skill because its made for 3 year olds who cant play mmos.

[Gamelova]

They won't, 1.5 has been submitted already.

1.5 is already finished, STS has already submitted 1.6 and waiting for it to be approved by apple.

[Zeus]

Game, I believe it was a typo and he meant to say 1.6. I have rarely seen an instance where Mysticaldream is wrong lol. He is like Royce's right hand man.

[relayer]

So what are your suggestions for making Bears more wanted / viable in groups again?

I haven't played one at higher levels but what I have noticed is taunt should be a lot more effective. Its great when a bear can pull a mob off you... seems right now with the high dps of birds its pretty difficult to do. Bears need taunt that works to do their job.

[Lesrider]

They basically just have to revert to pre-1.5. Pve was balanced then, before the re-balance.

[omnipresence]

Right, because everyone wanted a mage in their group then. :P Let's not move backwards. That change was made for a reason.

[Polyph]

Yea bears are so-so at best now, after I finish cyber armor on mine he'll go back on the shelf for my bird. My bear gets booted instantly out of well over half the Victory Lap games I join even though I would consider myself a rather good bear, usually getting groups of mobs pinned in a wall or corner very quickly etc. A lot of groups I join with my bird boot other bears because they "slow us down". It's quite sad. I'd love to see this game require some tactics as it matures. Allowing the tank a moment to grab agro from mobs/bosses or it's certain death for you etc would be a nice start, at least make some high lvl elite instances that run as such. Gurg fight is a cool one at least it requires people to do SOMETHING other than attack mindlessly.

[StompArtist]

Yea bears are so-so at best now, after I finish cyber armor on mine he'll go back on the shelf for my bird. My bear gets booted instantly out of well over half the Victory Lap games I join even though I would consider myself a rather good bear, usually getting groups of mobs pinned in a wall or corner very quickly etc. A lot of groups I join with my bird boot other bears because they "slow us down". It's quite sad.

Yeah. I retired my panda for the very same reasons. Now got a bird and I am catching myself thinking about bears slowing me down... Rather sad since the bear is my fav character.

[Polyph]

Yeah. I retired my panda for the very same reasons. Now got a bird and I am catching myself thinking about bears slowing me down... Rather sad since the bear is my fav character.

Lol I feel the same on my bird, too. Truth is a lot of bears are bad, just mindlessly stomping the grounding and spreading mobs in a 360 degree radius around the group rather than getting them pinned and tight. That is indeed a hinderance. Good bears are plagued by low dps and less than stellar tanking compared to pally or str bird still though. Hope they give bears another gander soon.

[Kujen]

My bear is a great tank I think, you can keep aggro if you spam taunt..use it every time it cools down. But I still feel unwanted..lol. Seems enemies die faster and kill slower than before, so tanks aren't as necessary as they used to be. And since the bears have such low DPS, many people just don't want them in their groups anymore. You're right a lot of bears are bad, most I see don't even taunt, one of their most important skills IMO.

I just want to be able to enjoy playing my bear again.

[Fanderay]

I think the main things bears are missing right now are better aggro tools (taunt etc) and survivability that is significantly better than the other classes.

Part of the problem is that this game is currently too easy, and that birds and mages can survive great without a real tank. Generally I hate to see anyone nerfed, but it seems to me like dpsers should be a little more squishy, and should have to be somewhat careful of their damage output so they don't pull aggro and end up dead (currently when they pull aggro there usually isn't a consequence).

I think balancing bears would make the game fun for all the serious players, and would bring in more required strategy and team-work. People often complain when games force a tank/dps/healer group make-up, but generally those games are more fun and interesting than "flexible" games which are often just easy or boring.

I know that PL is designed for people on their phones, so it's never going to be hugely strategic, but I think people should be encouraged to have to learn some things and not be able to get by with no understanding of what they're doing :P

I've gotten a bit off topic, but yes, please balance the classes!

[ciss]

not true, a good bear is always needed (only 1 in the team), and SPEEDS things up if played correctly. Got the best team ever a few hours ago, me (bear) 2 pallies, 2 birds, doing full VL. We did like 30 runs (5 bosses) fast as hell. No kidding, keeper NEVER shielded up in any run, hardly ever had any screams from gurg, we were going though them like cheese. Bekon and taunt were much appreciated, everybody knew their roles, so all went by the book!

So I decided there are not too many well played bears out there, why should I hibernate mine when I m really needed? So my pally will only be taken out for money farming (crush), or low level dungeons (vyxxnar/swamp/frozen) for his aoe speed.
But in VL, I will always have my bear ready to smash some butts!

[Lesrider]

Sorry, but even the best of bears are not as fast as 2 mages/pallies 3 birds or even 1 pally 4 birds. Killing the keeper before the first shield goes up is the norm with just about any Mage/bird team that all attack at the same time.

[Lysdexic]

I'm not even level 50 with my dex-bear and typically I'm the fool sitting there taking all the punishment while the rest of you spam your junk. But it is extremely insane when looking at the damage they inflict compared to us bears... and forget taking on the Keeper or better with a pack of bears, not unless you have 3 hours to throw aside.

Hey Boo Boo Boo, whaddya got in the pik-i-nik basket?
Nothing Yogi, because we bears got no PL luv's!

[Bludd]

What we need is new skills for all of the classes.

[StompArtist]

In game protest with all the bears picketing in the castle!

[ciss]

ahahahhaaha good one! devs got other things on their minds now tho! Our strike would go unnoticed! :))

[highlander_den]

Though I am doing fine with my bear, with a few good comment by strangers in the game,

May I suggest:

- More Armor for bear (So that they can taunt and be a true tanker)
- More Armor for Iron blood (So that they can tank more better)

Make bear more useful, as a tank so that mage and bird still need bears even if they can really kill. ;)

[Duke]

So what are your suggestions for making Bears more wanted / viable in groups again?

I haven't played one at higher levels but what I have noticed is taunt should be a lot more effective. Its great when a bear can pull a mob off you... seems right now with the high dps of birds its pretty difficult to do. Bears need taunt that works to do their job.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Letting the bear-only skills do a better job of holding aggro should help PvE dramatically without any other balancing features. I can't speak to PvP at all, being completely not interested in it.

[Echelong]

From my experience from past MMOs what Tanks need is maybe a bit more DPS and aggro building on their skills.

For example you skills give the same damage as they do but certain skills build aggro even when archer or enchantress do more damage. Aggro should not depend only the damage by the tank since they are not a dps class. And taunt is the only way they can get mobs off the others effectively so far.

I have tried letting tanks gather aggro first before starting to nuke the bosses but they still lose aggro to fast.

[Fyrce]

A good tank or a couple bears leading a group is truly an amazing sight. Even today. I think most people never get to see it. One, there are a lot of bears that do not use their full skills. I would say at least 2/3 of bears do not know how to control mobs properly. Two, there are a lot of mages/birds that do not give bears a chance, probably due to their non-impressive experiences with bears. If a bear does not make much of a difference in your group or makes the group experience worse, that is a bear not living up to his full potential.

I must be running in strange groups, because I have not seen that many bears get booted. And I've also seen 4-bear groups, with 1 mage or 1 bird. Bears are still awesome. I just don't think they feel appreciated. They are not as necessary when mages and birds can easily survive most situations, including bosses.

It's probably just that, instead of mages and birds dying all the time like before, or dying very little like now, it needs to be somewhere in between, so bears are just a bit more appreciated. Also, for DPS, I do not agree bears should have more DPS, because then we'd be back to the problem of mages and/or birds feeling unappreciated.

I think I play my bear very little because my mage and bird are just so much better to play. Particularly the mage, which now really just nukes everything. Maybe how fast mobs get nuked by mages needs to slow down?

I have no idea what's best exactly, but mob control, while beautiful, is not as necessary when mobs are dying quickly. Or maybe the question is should the average bear be a pleasure to play or just the expert bear? Because I think expert bears are still needed. Average bears though probably feel they are just following a group around and leeching, because there really isn't a lot of melee damage they need to do. And let's not forget a lot of warriors think their whole job is melee damage, not mob control. I told a level 35 bear recently he needs to do mob control and he had no idea what I was talking about. He just kept trying to bash things with his 2-H sword.

When we talk about fixing bears, which type of bear are we talking about?

Are we talking about the good player bears? Because I'm not sure, except maybe for holding aggro longer, whether there needs to be that much more done for these types of bears. Maybe cooler-looking EQ and weapons. Everyone likes bling.

Or are we talking about the bastard-sword-wielding level 35 bear who barely knew what stomp was? (I don't think he used one skill the whole time we were in swamps together, other than use his sword) There are more of this type of bear player, who basically take the "warrior" label to heart: bash things with sword/axe/big weapon thing. One even asked me what I meant when I said bears should tank; He did not know warriors lead and did not lead.

Maybe the main thing is helping the other classes to see the usefulness of bears by "helping" them to die a little bit more.

[highlander_den]

For myself, my 1st char is a Bear. And I had already planned to be a meat shield before I reach lvl 50. My job in a group is not to do damage. Why? Because of the following:

- Low Hit%
- Low Damage
- Low DPS

Most of my points are into Str. And with the Rift Set, I have more Armor than others. My skills are as below:

Max - Iron Blood, Evade, Rage, Beckon, Taunt, Stomp, Hell Scream, Super Mega Slash, Crushing Blow
2 pts - Restore
1 pt - Crippling Slash, Vengeful Slash (No choice of not have the 1 pt there. And I don't map these 2 skills in my window.)

My style of playing:

- Be a Tanker. Iron Blood + Evade
- Be the first to go and Beckon, Hell Scream, pause (Bird to root and mage to lighting)
- Rage, aim one target and Super Mega Slash + Crushing Blow
- If the group I am in comes with responsible mage (that will heal), I will Taunt for them every chance I got.

[krazii]

Devs wont, cause it takes skill, nothing in this game takes skill because its made for 3 year olds who cant play mmos.

Hit the nail on the head. I think they made it "easy" to play purely to market the game to the masses. Good business decision, I guess.

The "re-balance" was a step in "a" direction there were some good points to it: mages are important to group, bears got a mana regen fix, birdies nerfed dps a bit, but still good. That said, this game now requires zero strategy to survive. Mages and birds can rush into rooms with mini-bosses (snipers/lore) or even bosses and survive. Before, they knew it was instant death, so they let the tank do it (rush, corner mobs), then they followed and did their jobs. The best group now is 4 birds and a pally, they take down anything uber fast with zero deaths. The other aspect of this game which really is bothersome now is the button mashing. Decreasing the regen rate for skills, while nice, was overdone. I can't stand having to constantly press skill buttons. I hope they find a middle ground between the old regen rates and the new ones.

Also, need to rebalance gear, currently all that fortune, destiny, fate gear is practically useless. I'd consider making it lvl 47 and 48 gear so it serves a purpose.

Lastly, I really think that trying to balance PVP and PVE is nearly impossible. They are completely different animals. I would suggest they consider balancing PvE and let PvP rebalance itself, which it would do. The might consider applying class modifiers strictly in PVE games to help the balance it out.

Here's a list of specific items I think would improve the game:
- Make a lvl 50 only zone that is tough as u know what, where you have to have a member of each class to survive. Give any group with a member of each class a "group" bonus
-Eliminate the "equp trick" used for dual specing, whereby you can equip gear that requires a high stat by using lower level gear to raise your stat. Require that all gear check your "base" stat and if it meets the requirements then you can equip it.
-Increase the strength of the mini-bosses to the somewhere between the current level and the pre-balance level, it was okay for snipers to whack a mage who went rushing into a area before the tank.
-Adjust skill regen rates to somewhere between the previous level and where it is now, button mashing is pointless.

I would really like to hear from a Dev about what their opinion of the current state of the rebalance is. Is it still a work in progress, what are they working on, what do they see as something needing to be fixed.

[Blaquehaaart]

I just want a charge move...so I can look cool.