Rogue w/Glacian or w/HJ vs War in pvp

[Hottsauce]

Very curious to the Rogue pvp'ers (for example each rogue has same stats & is geared identical..and only difference is the arcane pet being used) that own either Glacian, Hammerjaw or both.. Which Arcane pet has a better time killing/does more damage to a Well geared War in pvp thats has a say Abbadon or whatever.

I've seen the HJ or Glacian post, but in my pvp experiences geared WAR's are very very hard to take down 1v1. I don't have the luxury of gold to buy both arcane pets as Limsyoker advised, so I ask for your help.
I've read pro pvp rogue comments such as Zeus / Solid etc and their opinions conflict. Btw the pvp level I plan on is twink lvl21 if that makes a difference. I'm leaning more toward HJ due to his AA granting more damage/skill boost stats vs ice armor and a long cooldown.

All helpful post r welcome and much appreciated.

[Jetzzz]

For lv 15 below, glacian will be more helpfull for 1 vs 1 againts tank coz u need the mana splash from glacian arcane ability. Because u r playing at lv 21, i recommend HJ. The 10% damage buff and passive ability from HJ will be more usefull than glacian buff

[alexdroog]

Get hj. Basically the only way to kill my warri.
Most rogues are 22 now btw.

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[Blindness]

based on my experience using rog at 21-23 brackets, i pick glacian all the time evetho i have used both arcane pets that you've mentioned. why glacian? because its insane crits chance. when i use glacian, i dont even use stun to kill enemies, just straight aim nox dash combo. crit damage at 21-23 is hella insane imo.

hj +5% crits based on its 8 secs buff while glacian got permanent +10% crits. and remember one thing, damage hurts but crits kills.

as for strategy to kill warrior, theres 2 type of warrior in these brackets: jugg user and non jugg.

non jugg user is pretty simple: drop your packs, charge aim and spam normal attack in between until their heal shield gone, and then spam full combo (tap aim nox dash)

jugg user: drop your packs, charge aimshot and spam normal attacks only. no need to tap another skills because you need to save your mana vs these type of warrior cuz their triple heal is just really OP.

and agree with alexdroog, most player went 22 now. hope this helps!

[Zeus]

Solid doesn't own a glacian, last time I checked. So, his experience on that is lacking.

I've throughly tested each & at end game, Glacian is definitely the preferred pet of the two. The survivability with glacian on top of the added crit is amazing.

[Solid]

Solid doesn't own a glacian, last time I checked. So, his experience on that is lacking.

I've throughly tested each & at end game, Glacian is definitely the preferred pet of the two. The survivability with glacian on top of the added crit is amazing.

I don't need to be a rocket scientist to conclude hammerjaw is better than glacian, what am I gonna do with an armor bump as a rogue? Tank it out in a clash?, maybe you should change your tactics. As a 'Rogue' and not a tank, the 2 significant pros of the hammerjaw is the outstanding damage as well as average crit, with a glacian there is no "outstanding damage", the cool down is heinous, and it's stats are more centered for a tank. You basically hit the same amount of damage with malison as you would with glacian, but equipping hammerjaw would give you a whopping 47 damage increase. Let's looks at this from a logical standpoint, is 47 damage a worthwhile trade for 5 crit? Hells yes.

[Zeus]

I don't need to be a rocket scientist to conclude hammerjaw is better than samael, what am I gonna do with an armor bump as a rogue? Tank it out in a clash?, maybe you should change your tactics. As a 'Rogue' and not a tank, the 2 significant pros of the hammerjaw is the outstanding damage as well as average crit, with a glacian there is no "outstanding damage", the cool down is heinous, and it's stats are more centered for a tank. You basically hit the same amount of damage with malison as you would with glacian, but equipping hammerjaw would give you a whopping 47 damage increase. Let's looks at this from a logical standpoint, is 47 damage a worthwhile trade for 5 crit? Hells yes.

1. You said Samael? What?
2. The armor increase is highly underrated. As I said before, you do not own it. In a Hammerjaw vs. Glacian rogue fight, Glacian wins. If you'd like another experienced rogue's input, ask Aze.
3. Criticals are in the one/two hit range, regardless of the damage increase. My damage per attack with Hammerjaw is barely higher. When I use skills, the difference is negligible. However, how often I crit is much more. Remember, 10% crit is a 10% higher chance to do double damage. So, is it really all that low? No.
4. When criticals are in the one hit range, what are you going to want? More damage when you're already one hitting the person? No, you're going to need more survivability so you can survive after killing the person.
5. Damage = 0 when you're dead & glacian helps you survive. 10% armor increase is around 10% damage reduction. So, not only do you have higher health to begin with when using glacian, but you also have more armor. It's like stacking on another 300-400 health points.

Lastly, there are damage plateaus. Critical plateau exists at 100% and only at 100% because you cannot crit more than 100% of the time.

If you'd like, fight me with Hammerjaw, I'll use Glacian. We will see who wins. :)

[Ishtmeet]

I'm not a rogue, But yes at low lvls, 10-25 glacian is best choice. And who says 10% armour ain't useful o.O

[epicrrr]

for toons i prefer hj; hj ability gives you 5% crit and 1 glac ability = 2 hj ability this is what drove me to get hj.
I would get glacian too if i really need but because of 5% crit hj abiity ,samael is next logical pet to get.

[Solid]

1. You said Samael? What?
2. The armor increase is highly underrated. As I said before, you do not own it. In a Hammerjaw vs. Glacian rogue fight, Glacian wins. If you'd like another experienced rogue's input, ask Aze.
3. Criticals are in the one/two hit range, regardless of the damage increase. My damage per attack with Hammerjaw is barely higher. When I use skills, the difference is negligible. However, how often I crit is much more. Remember, 10% crit is a 10% higher chance to do double damage. So, is it really all that low? No.
4. When criticals are in the one hit range, what are you going to want? More damage when you're already one hitting the person? No, you're going to need more survivability so you can survive after killing the person.
5. Damage = 0 when you're dead & glacian helps you survive. 10% armor increase is around 10% damage reduction. So, not only do you have higher health to begin with when using glacian, but you also have more armor. It's like stacking on another 300-400 health points.

Lastly, there are damage plateaus. Critical plateau exists at 100% and only at 100% because you cannot crit more than 100% of the time.

If you'd like, fight me with Hammerjaw, I'll use Glacian. We will see who wins. :)

1. Obviously, I mean Glacian - not really sure what badgering me over a petty typo really achieves.
2. Armor on a rogue? Lolwut. From your standpoint, you should be using Magma Gear. It increases your armor substantially, but the trade off is damage. You also sited 'Aze' on this? I actually laughed at this in real life, you site a pure PvE player on a PvP discussion - bringing a doctor to repair your house, essentially.
3. You are trading anywhere from 47-51 damage for a 5% crit increase; while damage is passive, crit is LUCK. I would rather be safe, than sorry.
4. Like I said earlier crit is luck, and in this case I would take damage. If crit really mattered to an extreme point, mythic daggers would have been 50-60m easily with a whopping 5 crit increase but it didn't, we also have fellow endgame rogues last season confused on whether to put points on crit or damage passives. It wasn't 100% every rogue using crit. You see, I don't think you understand this but whereas crit is highly dependant on luck, damage is always passive there is no 5% chance to do an extra 50 damage, it is always there. Although the extra 5% crit may help, in the end 50 damage is more worthwhile.
5. I find this to be the weakest argument of all, seriously armor on a rogue? Why not use a prance or a abaddon? This is just silly, like I said earlier. If you believe your arguments to be 'legitmate' you should honestly just use the elite magma gear, I believe you trade off 100 or more armor for around 50 damage, but hey - rogues need armor, eh?

[Zeus]

1. Obviously, I mean Glacian - not really sure what badgering me over a petty typo really achieves.
2. Armor on a rogue? Lolwut. From your standpoint, you should be using Magma Gear. It increases your armor substantially, but the trade off is damage. You also sited 'Aze' on this? I actually laughed at this in real life, you site a pure PvE player on a PvP discussion - bringing a doctor to repair your house, essentially.
3. You are trading anywhere from 47-51 damage for a 5% crit increase; while damage is passive, crit is LUCK. I would rather be safe, than sorry.
4. Like I said earlier crit is luck, and in this case I would take damage. If crit really mattered to an extreme point, mythic daggers would have been 50-60m easily with a whopping 5 crit increase but it didn't, we also have fellow endgame rogues last season confused on whether to put points on crit or damage passives. It wasn't 100% every rogue using crit. You see, I don't think you understand this but whereas crit is highly dependant on luck, damage is always passive there is no 5% chance to do an extra 50 damage, it is always there. Although the extra 5% crit may help, in the end 50 damage is more worthwhile.
5. I find this to be the weakest argument of all, seriously armor on a rogue? Why not use a prance or a abaddon? This is just silly, like I said earlier. If you believe your arguments to be 'legitmate' you should honestly just use the elite magma gear, I believe you trade off 100 or more armor for around 50 damage, but hey - rogues need armor, eh?

1. I badgered that typo because it shows that your thoughts weren't focused.
2. Thanks for using my way of illustrating the main points, shows that you do like my thinking.
3. Aze is a top PvP rogue, wether you like it or not. He may not PvP as much as he used to, but he's undeniably one of the best rogues in the game. You want a second opinion? Predator has also tested Glacian vs Hammerjaw and Glacian is far superior.
4. You haven't address my point about the minimal damage increase. I've tested per attack, per skill. The damage increase from Hammerjaw is absolutely minimal. On Aimed shot, at most, it's 100 higher.
5. Mythic daggers are numerous times the value of any other rogue weapon out there, 'nuff said.
6. I understand it, there's a reason why I didn't max out crit. However, there is a base crit line if you want your critical hits to appear frequent. That's around ~40ish crit.
7. When damage is already extremely high on a rogue and you're critting well above an opponent's HP, you don't need more damage. It's like putting a 1000 hp car on a highway where the speed limit is 70mph.
8. Something you may not know: a Glacian's passive attack at L40 targets Hammerjaw's weaknesses, which are defense and crit. Hammerjaw, on the other hand has a chance at reducing critical OR armor by 15% meanwhile Glacian does both armor and crit, as well as hit (although reducing hit does not matter).
9. If you understood algorithm plateaus, you would not have suggested using Magma gear. Since you do not, you suggested that.

Lastly, there's a reason why Glacian is a higher price than Hammerjaw. It is the better pet & since you do not have it, you cannot comment since you do not have any information except theoretical knowledge. I have real world testing, damage difference, & have versed players using the exact same setup as me except they are using HJ and I'm using Glacian.

In the real world, if you want to prove something, you have to come bring back solid information. Again, I will repeat. The damage increase is minimal due to damage threshold algorithms in place. 50 damage more is not 50 damage more, something which people need to understand.

Is Hammerjaw better in some aspects? Sure, but in a rogue vs. rogue and mage vs. rogue, it is unmatched. In a rogue vs. warrior, it is a toss up versus Hammerjaw or Glacian.

[falmear]

This is classic Zeus strawman. The OP asks about PvP with a warrior at level 21 twink. And now we are talking 1v1 end game rogue duel in PvP.

[Alexmann]

So true (after reading both arguments). Zeus is da man:)
Based on experience tested on both pets and facts (main point).
Now even a 5yo kid will say glacian is better. Sigggh

[Zeus]

@Falmear

Post #4 explains the OPs questions. Since post #4 uses both pets, it holds the most ground for that level & I did not feel the need to elaborate on that, especially since I do not know about L21 specifically. The only information I could have given was theories, which are not valid information.

Secondly, the OP quoted both me and Solid in that post so he obviously values our opinions (which is why I posted).

Thanks for playing.

[Cweed]

@Falmear

Post #4 explains the OPs questions. Since post #4 uses both pets, it holds the most ground for that level & I did not feel the need to elaborate on that, especially since I do not know about L21 specifically. The only information I could have given was theories, which are not valid information.

Secondly, the OP quoted both me and Solid in that post so he obviously values our opinions (which is why I posted).

Thanks for playing.
Ily Parf

[Solid]

1. I badgered that typo because it shows that your thoughts weren't focused.
2. Thanks for using my way of illustrating the main points, shows that you do like my thinking.
3. Aze is a top PvP rogue, wether you like it or not. He may not PvP as much as he used to, but he's undeniably one of the best rogues in the game. You want a second opinion? Predator has also tested Glacian vs Hammerjaw and Glacian is far superior.
4. You haven't address my point about the minimal damage increase. I've tested per attack, per skill. The damage increase from Hammerjaw is absolutely minimal. On Aimed shot, at most, it's 100 higher.
5. Mythic daggers are numerous times the value of any other rogue weapon out there, 'nuff said.
6. I understand it, there's a reason why I didn't max out crit. However, there is a base crit line if you want your critical hits to appear frequent. That's around ~40ish crit.
7. When damage is already extremely high on a rogue and you're critting well above an opponent's HP, you don't need more damage. It's like putting a 1000 hp car on a highway where the speed limit is 70mph.
8. Something you may not know: a Glacian's passive attack at L40 targets Hammerjaw's weaknesses, which are defense and crit. Hammerjaw, on the other hand has a chance at reducing critical OR armor by 15% meanwhile Glacian does both armor and crit, as well as hit (although reducing hit does not matter).
9. If you understood algorithm plateaus, you would not have suggested using Magma gear. Since you do not, you suggested that.

Lastly, there's a reason why Glacian is a higher price than Hammerjaw. It is the better pet & since you do not have it, you cannot comment since you do not have any information except theoretical knowledge. I have real world testing, damage difference, & have versed players using the exact same setup as me except they are using HJ and I'm using Glacian.

In the real world, if you want to prove something, you have to come bring back solid information. Again, I will repeat. The damage increase is minimal due to damage threshold algorithms in place. 50 damage more is not 50 damage more, something which people need to understand.

Is Hammerjaw better in some aspects? Sure, but in a rogue vs. rogue and mage vs. rogue, it is unmatched. In a rogue vs. warrior, it is a toss up versus Hammerjaw or Glacian.

How about we just try vsing you using glacian and I using hammerjaw, we would be equally geared.

[Zeus]

How about we just try vsing you using glacian and I using hammerjaw, we would be equally geared.

You have an arcane ring? I don't have a mythic ring anymore.

[Anarchist]

LMAO its just like watching two kids arguing if spiderman is stronger than batman.






btw OP asked which is better for a pvp against wars and tips to take them down...not rogues vs rogues so your duel would be useless.

anyway carry on.
.
.
.

[Zeus]

LMAO its just like watching two kids arguing if spiderman is stronger than batman.






btw OP asked which is better for a pvp against wars and tips to take them down...not rogues vs rogues so your duel would be useless.

anyway carry on.
.
.
.

I stated that it would be a toss up on a warrior, as it depends on how you're using Glacian or Hammerjaw. Glacian's strength lies in it's endurance and critical. However, if you're using attacks when feebled, you're not really using glacian's strengths well.

Hence, it depends on how you are utilizing your pet's bonuses against a warrior.

@Safiras
I've pretty much listed all the information you need on it. I'm actually constructing a guide on Glacian vs. Hammerjaw as it seems to be a very popular topic. I'll keep you updated. :)

[ItsGhostu]

1. I badgered that typo because it shows that your thoughts weren't focused.
2. Thanks for using my way of illustrating the main points, shows that you do like my thinking.
3. Aze is a top PvP rogue, wether you like it or not. He may not PvP as much as he used to, but he's undeniably one of the best rogues in the game. You want a second opinion? Predator has also tested Glacian vs Hammerjaw and Glacian is far superior.
4. You haven't address my point about the minimal damage increase. I've tested per attack, per skill. The damage increase from Hammerjaw is absolutely minimal. On Aimed shot, at most, it's 100 higher.
5. Mythic daggers are numerous times the value of any other rogue weapon out there, 'nuff said.
6. I understand it, there's a reason why I didn't max out crit. However, there is a base crit line if you want your critical hits to appear frequent. That's around ~40ish crit.
7. When damage is already extremely high on a rogue and you're critting well above an opponent's HP, you don't need more damage. It's like putting a 1000 hp car on a highway where the speed limit is 70mph.
8. Something you may not know: a Glacian's passive attack at L40 targets Hammerjaw's weaknesses, which are defense and crit. Hammerjaw, on the other hand has a chance at reducing critical OR armor by 15% meanwhile Glacian does both armor and crit, as well as hit (although reducing hit does not matter).
9. If you understood algorithm plateaus, you would not have suggested using Magma gear. Since you do not, you suggested that.

Lastly, there's a reason why Glacian is a higher price than Hammerjaw. It is the better pet & since you do not have it, you cannot comment since you do not have any information except theoretical knowledge. I have real world testing, damage difference, & have versed players using the exact same setup as me except they are using HJ and I'm using Glacian.

In the real world, if you want to prove something, you have to come bring back solid information. Again, I will repeat. The damage increase is minimal due to damage threshold algorithms in place. 50 damage more is not 50 damage more, something which people need to understand.

Is Hammerjaw better in some aspects? Sure, but in a rogue vs. rogue and mage vs. rogue, it is unmatched. In a rogue vs. warrior, it is a toss up versus Hammerjaw or Glacian.

Sorry, but did i just heard from u that glacian is higher price then hj 1m difference its mean glacian better? LOL..bad way of thinking of pets.

[Zeus]

Sorry, but did i just heard from u that glacian is higher price then hj 1m difference its mean glacian better? LOL..bad way of thinking of pets.

So you completely ignored points 1 through 9 and read the summation point? Nice reading comprehension...

[Waheedski]

Theorising regarding the OP post from an Abaddon owning warrior....

If you as a rogue want to take me down in pvp, you have to attack that insane health and armour and not forgetting I'm being replenished by the formidable juggernaut and HoR. I personally would say attack the health like a crazed maniac, whilst making sure your mana does not run dry. In summary a pet that would deal major hurt to the health of the warrior seems ideal.

Remember crit is a chance thing, it may happen or it may not. But if you could buff yourself to have both variables damage/crit working alongside, I would say even experienced warriors would think twice taking you on.

I will say that the above is just a theory on my part, I could be way off the mark and if you have put my theory into action and got destroyed, I do apologise.

[Zeus]

Theorising regarding the OP post from an Abaddon owning warrior....

If you as a rogue want to take me down in pvp, you have to attack that insane health and armour and not forgetting I'm being replenished by the formidable juggernaut and HoR. I personally would say attack the health like a crazed maniac, whilst making sure your mana does not run dry. In summary a pet that would deal major hurt to the health of the warrior seems ideal.

Remember crit is a chance thing, it may happen or it may not. But if you could buff yourself to have both variables damage/crit working alongside, I would say even experienced warriors would think twice taking you on.

I will say that the above is just a theory on my part, I could be way off the mark and if you have put my theory into action and got destroyed, I do apologise.

You cannot do both, sadly.

The best way to kill a warrior without a stun pet is to wait out juggernaut. After that, all he has left to rely on is his feeble skills and HoR, so once juggernaut is done...then attack like a crazed maniac.

Trust me, Hammerjaw is not as good as Glacian. I have them all, lol.

[Bless]

You cannot do both, sadly. Then you, my friend, have not met my wonderful L41 Jack. 450 base dmg, 3.4k hp (this may be a bit of a dilemma, but this is not the topic at hand) and potentially unlimited mana.

The best way to kill a warrior without a stun pet is to wait out juggernaut. After that, all he has left to rely on is his feeble skills and HoR, so once juggernaut is done...then attack like a crazed maniac.

Trust me, Hammerjaw is not as good as Glacian. I have them all, lol. Glacian gives a horrible mana boost, it is not fit for the endgame, it is only good for L31 and thats it realistically. 1.15k (or 1.2k, forgot) is the total mana pool when full DEX, so unless you spec in some INT you're done for against a good tank - you cant just stand there doing nothing until the Jugg wears off. Glacian's an average pet, but HJ outdoes it. It's like the singe vs Samael argument. If the AA on singe is transformed into a terrify and it is given just 5% crit, it will outvie samael easily no doubt.

By the way, if you want a horrible mana pool and a crit that good as well as the odd survivability why not equip a pet that costs 7.5m less? Ribbit. A little less damage and hp/armor, but if what you say about crit is correct, it should be well OP!

Also, this was an old discussion for a L21 twink rogue vs a tank (warrior).
-Glacian is worth diddlysquat at twink levels - the highest avg crit it will raise to won't be higher than 25% on a rogue anyways.
-10% armor at L21 is ~60 more armor, which is quite crap in all honesty.
-Most twinks, would prefer dmg over a rainfall-in-a-desert chance of critical.
-Crits at L21 don't go higher than 1.2k or so on a tank anyways.
-Proof? Look around you, L21 twinks will rarely use glacian whereas many more will use HJ, most will however use Samael as it trumps both pets.

Of course the rest, except for the italicised text, is theoretical not practical, however the evaluations are supported by over 6 months playing against [and seeing] the pets [in action]. And since the subject is for a L21 twink, the endgame arguments are irrelevant.

[Zeus]

Glacian gives a horrible mana boost, it is not fit for the endgame, it is only good for L31 and thats it realistically. 1.15k (or 1.2k, forgot) is the total mana pool when full DEX, so unless you spec in some INT you're done for against a good tank - you cant just stand there doing nothing until the Jugg wears off. Glacian's an average pet, but HJ outdoes it. It's like the singe vs Samael argument. If the AA on singe is transformed into a terrify and it is given just 5% crit, it will outvie samael easily no doubt.

By the way, if you want a horrible mana pool and a crit that good as well as the odd survivability why not equip a pet that costs 7.5m less? Ribbit. A little less damage and hp/armor, but if what you say about crit is correct, it should be well OP!

Also, this was an old discussion for a L21 twink rogue vs a tank (warrior).
-Glacian is worth diddlysquat at twink levels - the highest avg crit it will raise to won't be higher than 25% on a rogue anyways.
-10% armor at L21 is ~60 more armor, which is quite crap in all honesty.
-Most twinks, would prefer dmg over a rainfall-in-a-desert chance of critical.
-Crits at L21 don't go higher than 1.2k or so on a tank anyways.
-Proof? Look around you, L21 twinks will rarely use glacian whereas many more will use HJ, most will however use Samael as it trumps both pets.

Of course the rest, except for the italicised text, is theoretical not practical, however the evaluations are supported by over 6 months playing against [and seeing] the pets [in action]. And since the subject is for a L21 twink, the endgame arguments are irrelevant.

Do you own them? Have you tested them? That's all just theoretical then. I actually use the pet on a day to day basis and I can tell you that it is way better than Hammerjaw.

[Bless]

Do you own them? Have you tested them? That's all just theoretical then. I actually use the pet on a day to day basis and I can tell you that it is way better than Hammerjaw. You haven't twinked though so how can you speak for twinks in the same way that I can't speak for Glacian owners? The theory matters just as much. Look at the L21 twinks, there will be less glacians than HJs.

[Zeus]

You haven't twinked though so how can you speak for twinks in the same way that I can't speak for Glacian owners? The theory matters just as much. Look at the L21 twinks, there will be less glacians than HJs.

Sure, for L21 twinks I cannot speak on it. I said that earlier if you read my posts (post #14). So, I only offered what knowledge I do know about the two pets. And, at endgame, Glacian is far better.

[Blindness]

They both amazing tbh. Back on its user themselves. But for me, ill pick Glacian anytime for 21-23.


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[alexdroog]

In 21 mana and crit make the difference for a rogue. I recommend glacian.
And you don't need an arcane pet.
Mali and Talon are all you need. Better to get tarlok gear instead.