Are we hitting a cap on percent based buffs?

[GoodSyntax]

Earlier today a guildie was asking about the % DMG passive and if it works, because he/she didn't think it did. I remember running simulations two seasons ago that proved that it did, so I decided to go through the case again this season.

What I found is completely unexpected.

Using Loki (+15% DMG happiness bonus) as my case-study, I went into elite Brackenridge and started my test. There are three class of mobs at the start of the map, so these were my practice dummies. Granted, what follows is a relatively small sampling (30 attacks for each attack type, resetting the mob after every attack), but it is enough to provide some insight and clearly demonstrates the anomaly I found. For brevity, I will only show the summaries for my testing on the spearman.


81977

The cells that I highlighted in Green are reasonable values, the one that is green and bold is almost dead-on versus what I was expecting. Yellow shows some improvement but at roughly half of what I expected to see. Red is very far off from what I expected to see.

Essentially, with Loki's 15% DMG bonus, I would have expected to see average differences around 15%.

What is most troubling is my results when performing this test with Combo Elixir. It seems that there is no benefit to having a %DMG pet when you already have the +30% DMG from Combo.

Take a look at the last two rows, this is the differential between normal damage and damage on Combo. For the most part, damage improvements seems to be limited to +16-17%. The difference between normal and combo without a pet is close to what is expected at +27.67%. I expected to see +30%, but a 3% deviation is acceptable in this case.

Another troubling statistic is the nearly 10% change in Standard Deviation when comparing damage while on Combo elixir with and without Loki. I expect minor variances (3% give or take), but 10% is abnormal in this case.

Perhaps someone could shed some light on these anomalies, because if I am reading this correctly, I see a ceiling on the %DMG buffs (via Passive, Pet and Elixirs). That implies that if you are running with Combo elixirs, don't bother using a pet with %DMG bonuses, because they may not actually be helping you in any way.

[keikali]

Kali, I believe this works the same as the Speed % buff you would receive from Klaas. Last I heard the Speed % buff was capped at 30% so having anything greater is useless.

I could be wrong.

[GoodSyntax]

I vaguely recall a 30% cap, but this seems to imply that it is 30% in total! That includes elixirs, pet bonus and passives.

So, if you have 5/5 DMG passive, and Loki, then you have a 20% DMG bonus. Any elixir (DMG or Combo) could only give you an additional 10% boost?

[Madnex]

Sounds about right. I think there was a topic a few months back on the same issue. Changes the way you look at pets, doesn't it? :)

[GoodSyntax]

Yeah - it's very frustrating because Loki is one of my favorite pets. So, with Combo/DMG elixirs, I was really looking forward to some serious DMG. I had assumed that because my Crit level is naturally so high, I would really benefit from Loki's +15% DMG. And since his +20 DEX Arcane Ability has one of the fastest cooldowns of any pet, he essentially yields +20 DEX, +15 STR and +15% DMG, which at these levels is entering Mythic Pet territory.

Perhaps, he is the pet to use when not running with any form of DMG elixir.

Hopefully we can get a Dev to confirm this, since it would not be the first time I've made an incorrect assumption.

[Serancha]

You were also testing on a capped map. I think this may have an effect also. I have been doing some testing on other things, and the capped maps do not appear to behave the same as scaling ones. I'd definitely like to see more info on this though.

[phillyr]

I wish they would publish a game guide on how all this works. Even a pdf we can dl to our phones or computers. Most of us heavy players would read it to understand how all these different boosts calculate into each other instead of having to spend plats to test to see if its working the way it should be...or how we think it should be.

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[GoodSyntax]

I wish they would publish a game guide on how all this works. Even a pdf we can dl to our phones or computers. Most of us heavy players would read it to understand how all these different boosts calculate into each other instead of having to spend plats to test to see if its working the way it should be...or how we think it should be.

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I kind of like the fact that STS does not always publish everything, and that the community gets involved to do the testing and analysis. The ones that do the testing & analysis, and those that actually take the time to read/study what the community puts out for consumption wind up being more successful than those that play more casually. I've always said Skill > Gear, so analysis like this and many others that are available are what contribute to the Skill part of the equation.

I've played so many different RPG games where there were cheats/guides/walkthroughs/etc. published, and just following the script kind of takes away the fun and sense of accomplishment.

[Sceazikua]

If they fixed and showed %damage/armor on stat screen its going to be much more easier to see :)

[Tendirin]

those numbers.. ITS OVAR 90000

[GoodSyntax]

those numbers.. ITS OVAR 90000

No idea what you are referencing...

The point of this post was to highlight the fact that while on Combo Elixir (or DMG elixir), and trying to use a %DMG pet (like Loki), you are getting no benefit at all. Look at the averages for both normal and charged auto attacks with and without Loki (and his +15% DMG bonus). With a 3% statistical margin of error, this summary is telling you that you get no bonus whatsoever from Loki's +15% DMG bonus while on elixir.

Even without Combo Elixir, you are only getting about +9% DMG instead of the expected 15% - this implies that there is a hard ceiling somewhere that, I personally, wasn't aware of.

[phillyr]

Thats a very good point. We may be better off going with a crit based pet on a combo elixer than a dmg based bonus pet

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[Tendirin]

how are you getting access to that information dude lol

[Hectororius]

I wouldn't be surprised at a ceiling on certain % based stats. its quite feasible that if they actually allowed the % boosts from pets, elixirs, equipment, and passives to max out uncapped, we could easily see players reaching near 100% buffs, making the game unchallenging. Its nice to run through some mobs at elite lvl without taking any damage and dealing max damage, but eventually, that doesnt leave much else to do or look forward to.

They usually leave information like unpublished for good reason. Its up to the player to determine (either statistically or intuitive) what is actually working and what isnt.

Thanks again for putting the work in to doing it the statistical way! and at least now you can buy lix with gold to run the tests and not burn that plat :)

[GoodSyntax]

how are you getting access to that information dude lol

Basically, I did 30 attacks on the three different mob types at the start of elite Brackenridge (spearman, archer, armored spearman). 30 uncharged auto, 30 charged auto, 30 uncharged aimed, 30 charged aimed. Repeated the same process while on Combo Elixir and without any elixirs. Repeated the test with Loki and without any pet.

I discard any attack that Crits, and I reset the mob after every attack to eliminate any buff/debuffs.

Then, with all the damage values recorded, it's just a few calculations in Excel and that's what you see in the cropped screenshot. I hid the 30 rows that had the actual damage values, since I couldn't get a readable screenshot if they were visible.

For purposes of this post, I analyzed the results on just the spearman.

[GoodSyntax]

Thanks again for putting the work in to doing it the statistical way! and at least now you can buy lix with gold to run the tests and not burn that plat :)

Yeah - of course this release comes a day late for me. It would have been easier to just blow 10k gold on DMG elixir rather than on full Combo, but that's what I had, and I was bored.

[Zeus]

If you'd like, I can do a test in Elite Tindirin for you and give you the data. I'll be following the same procedure you explained to Tendirin so there's minimum variance, is that cool?

[Samhayne]

Really small data set. As I understand it, your damage has a range already - so you may be comparing a high base hit to a low base hit and attributing the difference.

[Serancha]

Basically, I did 30 attacks on the three different mob types at the start of elite Brackenridge (spearman, archer, armored spearman). 30 uncharged auto, 30 charged auto, 30 uncharged aimed, 30 charged aimed. Repeated the same process while on Combo Elixir and without any elixirs. Repeated the test with Loki and without any pet.

I discard any attack that Crits, and I reset the mob after every attack to eliminate any buff/debuffs.

Then, with all the damage values recorded, it's just a few calculations in Excel and that's what you see in the cropped screenshot. I hid the 30 rows that had the actual damage values, since I couldn't get a readable screenshot if they were visible.

For purposes of this post, I analyzed the results on just the spearman.

Just a note (for anyone) that testing with aimed shot is only possible if you do not have the armor reduction upgrade on it. Otherwise the results will be skewed.

[GoodSyntax]

Really small data set. As I understand it, your damage has a range already - so you may be comparing a high base hit to a low base hit and attributing the difference.

Yeah - I ran out of time on Combo. Only got 30 uncharged Aimed Shots in before the elixir ran out. I will expand my result set over the coming days to smooth out peaks and valleys. That's actually why I like to use GeoMean instead of straight Average.

[GoodSyntax]

If you'd like, I can do a test in Elite Tindirin for you and give you the data. I'll be following the same procedure you explained to Tendirin so there's minimum variance, is that cool?

I'd really appreciate it if you could. That would allow me to compare across different builds. I'll also run a sample set in elite Oltgar.

[Candylicks]

Very curious to see what the numbers look like in other zones. Kali I've had this same thought before it's nice to see data regarding this.

[GoodSyntax]

More evidence....this time done in Elite Oltgar Keep using 25% Damage Kit. I expanded my sample size to 60 attacks for normal auto, charged auto and uncharged Aimed both with and without Loki, and with and without elixir.

82637

Note that the Normal (non-elixired) uncharged Aimed Shot performed essentially as expected, with about +13.5% DMG when using Loki.

Note that across the board, the differential with and without Loki while on DMG elixir (and his +15% DMG) flatlined. This provides rock-solid proof that something is afoot here. Based on these statistics, there is no benefit to using Loki when combined with a +25% DMG elixir, since the values are effectively the same (+/- 3% variance in almost every case).

Even more alarming is that I am not seeing a +25% DMG when comparing between normal and with damage elixir. I am yielding about a 7% gain with Loki when I was using a +25% DMG elixir, so I expected to see a +25% increase in average damage with my pet.

Without Loki (no pet), I am seeing an average of about 18-20%, which is more in-line with expectations.

Comparing normal, no pet damage versus elixired damage with Loki results in a very scary statistic. A straight sum of +DMG percent should yield +40%. Even with the most conservative possible multiplier of added Damage (0.25 * 1.15 = .2875, or +28.75% added damage), I am barely able to reach half of the expected value. Comparing normal, no pet damage versus +25% DMG elixir and Loki, I am only able to attain about +17.5% DMG. Not at all what I expected to see.

Ordinarily, I would say this is bugged, because I still feel that there is something wrong in Nordr elites right now, but the results are consistent with what I experienced at Elite Brackenridge.

Sam, any idea why I'm seeing what I'm seeing?

[FluffNStuff]

Do you have the 5/5 in damage for that 5% bonus damage? Also, do you have any archon or troll style rings that have +x damage or +x bonus damage?

[keikali]

Kali, excellent data gathering on this. I would love to see an explanation from the devs on this. It basically shows that you are hitting a ceiling cap at roughly close to 30% from what I'm looking at now. So if you have a Damage Elixir at 25% you are better off with a Pet that has no Damage % increase, but rather one that boosts your other stats since your data is showing that with both it is not accounting for one of them and I'm going to say the pet's Damage % is not being accounted for. I'm not sure which takes precedent, an Elixir or a Pet Happiness bonus. But whichever one it is, the other is deemed useless and not feasible to use.

[GoodSyntax]

Do you have the 5/5 in damage for that 5% bonus damage? Also, do you have any archon or troll style rings that have +x damage or +x bonus damage?

I only have 5/5 DMG, no archon

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[keikali]

I only have 5/5 DMG, no archon

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Is the 5% Passive damage accounted for separately from the other bonuses?

For example, if I have 5% passive and I have a Singe, would I be in reality hitting 20% or 15% only since the passive is part of the "player".

[Madnex]

So what I'm reading through this is that, with damage kits going for 10k now, you can achieve better damage output with non mythic and non arcane pets simply because the extra damage % is rendered useless. Interesting.

[GoodSyntax]

Is the 5% Passive damage accounted for separately from the other bonuses?

For example, if I have 5% passive and I have a Singe, would I be in reality hitting 20% or 15% only since the passive is part of the "player".

Based on what I see from my DMG elixir (+25%) combined with my +5% DMG passive, I can only assume that it is a total of 30% combined, regardless of where the bonus actually comes from.

So, 15% from Loki, +5% from DMG passive and +2.5% from archon means that at best you can only get +7.5% from any DMG elixir.

[Madnex]

Is the 5% Passive damage accounted for separately from the other bonuses?

For example, if I have 5% passive and I have a Singe, would I be in reality hitting 20% or 15% only since the passive is part of the "player".
I think passives take priority so let's say your damage is 600, the damage passive makes that 630. Pet happiness bonus is calculated with that number meaning that your damage should be improved by 15% of 630 which is 94. Correct me if I'm wrong but that'd make final damage 724.

[FluffNStuff]

I only have 5/5 DMG, no archon

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UGH ....

Reran your numbers by first removing that 5% damage from the no pet/no elixir to get a 'pure' damage (dividing by 1.05). Then did a 15% / 25% increase on those numbers ... and got what you are seeing!!! :( :( !!!. What this is telling me is not that there is a cap, but there is NO STACKING! Essentially it is taking the HIGHEST damage value and ONLY using that. Hopefully this is a bug!

[Kakashis]

OMG, I just did some of my own small tests and it seems that it is not stacking! Running lix only boosts by a little bit, but the extra % it's supposed to!

[null_void]

You are both correct. The way that the current multiplier system works depends on the statistic being multiplied. In the case of damage specifically, we apply the following rules:

- Is there one or more debuff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).
- Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).

Because of this, yes. If you have a passive skill with a 1.05 multiplier (5/5 skill), and you also have a pet out that gives you a 1.15 multiplier, your total damage multiplier will be 1.15.

There are a few things that override this - bonus damage, double damage weekends and such interact with the statistic system differently from the normal multipliers, so they don't use this logic.

[keikali]

You are both correct. The way that the current multiplier system works depends on the statistic being multiplied. In the case of damage specifically, we apply the following rules:

- Is there one or more debuff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).
- Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).

Because of this, yes. If you have a passive skill with a 1.05 multiplier (5/5 skill), and you also have a pet out that gives you a 1.15 multiplier, your total damage multiplier will be 1.15.

There are a few things that override this - bonus damage, double damage weekends and such interact with the statistic system differently from the normal multipliers, so they don't use this logic.

Simply put for the non-number users; the SINGLE highest modifier will be used when determining Damage % Bonus. In other words, 25% > 15% Pet > 5% Passive. And in this case the Elixir will override all. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[null_void]

Simply put for the non-number users; the SINGLE highest modifier will be used when determining Damage % Bonus. In other words, 25% > 15% Pet > 5% Passive. And in this case the Elixir will override all. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct.

[GoodSyntax]

You are both correct. The way that the current multiplier system works depends on the statistic being multiplied. In the case of damage specifically, we apply the following rules:

- Is there one or more debuff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).
- Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).

Because of this, yes. If you have a passive skill with a 1.05 multiplier (5/5 skill), and you also have a pet out that gives you a 1.15 multiplier, your total damage multiplier will be 1.15.

There are a few things that override this - bonus damage, double damage weekends and such interact with the statistic system differently from the normal multipliers, so they don't use this logic.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of DMG passives and Pet %DMG when using elixirs?

Also, does this mean that the DMG passive is useless when coupled with pets like Loki, Talon or any other %DMG?

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[keikali]

You are correct.

Thanks. I do have a question though. How does this work in terms of CRIT %. Is there eventually a "ceiling" that we can hit?


Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of DMG passives and Pet %DMG when using elixirs?

Also, does this mean that the DMG passive is useless when coupled with pets like Loki, Talon or any other %DMG?

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Exactly. Nowadays most people use Pets with DMG % to boost their overall Damage along with putting 5/5 into Damage Passive, but not knowing that only the highest modifier will be accounted for.

[falmear]

Does this also apply to veil's damage buff? Seems like passive damage is rather pointless. If veil or pet damage replaces the passive damage.

[keikali]

Does this also apply to veil's damage buff? Seems like passive damage is rather pointless. If veil or pet damage replaces the passive damage.

According to how they have it coded, the SINGLE most Potent Buff or Debuff is used as a multiplier. So I believe SV also applies in this case since SV is a buff. So I'm guessing when you walk into the smoke it will be either used or override and when you walk out of it, it will use your previous highest modifier.

[Raymond05]

Hmmm.. I am switching to crit passive instead of damage passive after reading all of this. :))

[GoodSyntax]

The implications of this are incredible!

That makes Archon ring's 2.5% buff useless. It nearly eliminates any benefit from % based passives, and it severely devalues % modifiers coming from your pets.

Basically, top % modifier wins, regardless of where it comes from.

I am very, very curious about Shadow Veil, and the buffs we are supposed to get from it. If the same biggest value wins premise applies, then the boost from Veil is minimized as well.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the ripple effects that this revelations has on me...

Looks like a respec is coming the next time I log in! Just when I thought I was solid.

<Mind Blown>

[keikali]

The implications of this are incredible!

That makes Archon ring's 2.5% buff useless. It nearly eliminates any benefit from % based passives, and it severely devalues % modifiers coming from your pets.

Basically, top % modifier wins, regardless of where it comes from.

I am very, very curious about Shadow Veil, and the buffs we are supposed to get from it. If the same biggest value wins premise applies, then the boost from Veil is minimized as well.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the ripple effects that this revelations has on me...

Looks like a respec is coming the next time I log in! Just when I thought I was solid.

<Mind Blown>

Myself, along with others THANK YOU for creating this and bringing this to the Devs attention. Knowing this information is truly remarkable in that it not only will change the way we play, but how we spec our builds along with choosing of equipment and pets.

[GoodSyntax]

I want to thank null_void for explaining this. It is truly a rare event when a Dev is willing to explain the internal mechanics of the game. Especially in cases like this where the ramifications are significant.

Hopefully the community can accept these facts and move on without having to rage over it.

PS - Feel free to throw some plat my way because I wasted several elixirs and several hundred pots compiling all this data :-P

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[falmear]

According to how they have it coded, the SINGLE most Potent Buff or Debuff is used as a multiplier. So I believe SV also applies in this case.

Passive damage appears to be useless also some pets are pointless if you are using veil. And archon ring of potency which grants +2.5% damage would seem pointless as well.

[keikali]

I want to thank null_void for explaining this. It is truly a rare event when a Dev is willing to explain the internal mechanics of the game. Especially in cases like this where the ramifications are significant.

Hopefully the community can accept these facts and move on without having to rage over it.

PS - Feel free to throw some plat my way because I wasted several elixirs and several hundred pots compiling all this data :-P

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I say the max bundle of Plat is sufficient.

[Euldor]

Shoot. And I just respec-ed. Wasted 5 skill points on Dmg. *sigh

[GoodSyntax]

Shoot. And I just respec-ed. Wasted 5 skill points on Dmg. *sigh

Don't feel too bad, I've only been running with Shadow Veil, Loki and 5/5 DMG for 3 seasons now...

All we can do is just LOL and move on.

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[Ebezaanec]

To: GoodSyntax

82703

Good job :)

[wvhills]

Edit: whole post deleted because I don't even care. Do what u will.

[Zeus]

U wouldn't believe how much I want to rage over this. So, damage passive is useless, if u have shadow veil and a damage pet then one of those is useless too. U guys keep putting out these plat pets with damage % knowing good and well that they are useless because we're standing in veil most of the time. Kali is a better person than me and he may laugh it off but I feel cheated and deceived. Time for some free respecs and offer to refund plats on any pets we have purchased that has damage modifier.

C'mon now Rob, lets not get null_void fired for revealing this to us! It's better to just accept our losses and save from now on. After all, he wasn't required to tell us since as a company, they own the software.

[Zapix]

I hope there are plans to change this. This is super unacceptable. I won't even say what else I'm thinking.

[Zeus]

The implications of this are incredible!

That makes Archon ring's 2.5% buff useless. It nearly eliminates any benefit from % based passives, and it severely devalues % modifiers coming from your pets.

Basically, top % modifier wins, regardless of where it comes from.

I am very, very curious about Shadow Veil, and the buffs we are supposed to get from it. If the same biggest value wins premise applies, then the boost from Veil is minimized as well.

I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the ripple effects that this revelations has on me...

Looks like a respec is coming the next time I log in! Just when I thought I was solid.

<Mind Blown>

I don't think it makes the archon ring's buff useless as it's already pre-calculated into the stats and then percent damage buffs apply. Otherwise, we would be seeing a serious NERF in damage every time we wear an archon ring.

[katish]

this is mind blowing - very frustrating!

but this does not seem to apply to %exp increase.. I seem to rmemeber getting 800 exp from wt4 runs when flly stacked up on exp lix.. while normally i'd get about 400 only.. but this was from testing 2 or 3 seasons ago. anyone can confirm?

[Zapix]

this is mind blowing - very frustrating!

but this does not seem to apply to %exp increase.. I seem to rmemeber getting 800 exp from wt4 runs when flly stacked up on exp lix.. while normally i'd get about 400 only.. but this was from testing 2 or 3 seasons ago. anyone can confirm?

The Devs told us before the expansion came out that all the exp elixers stack.

[Madnex]

This certainly changes the way I'll be playing from now on. I wasn't even specializing in passive damage, speed, armor or crit so this won't change my build. The impact of this discovery is minimal for non mythic/arcane pet users since the same individuals are the ones most likely running on elixirs a lot more often.


Thank you kali for bringing this up and no_void for explaining. :)

[keikali]

this is mind blowing - very frustrating!

but this does not seem to apply to %exp increase.. I seem to rmemeber getting 800 exp from wt4 runs when flly stacked up on exp lix.. while normally i'd get about 400 only.. but this was from testing 2 or 3 seasons ago. anyone can confirm?

Luck and Exp stacks.

Armor % and Dmg % bonus works the same way. Damage Reduction works slightly different.

[wvhills]

Also, I find it odd that the damage modifiers are bugged so we couldn't see on our screens that all these damage pets we've been buying are worthless.

[wvhills]

C'mon now Rob, lets not get null_void fired for revealing this to us! It's better to just accept our losses and save from now on. After all, he wasn't required to tell us since as a company, they own the software.

Oh no, I don't want him fired. He seems to be the honest one and the one who knows how the game is designed. They aren't required to tell us how the game works; however, when we can't see how much damage we are actually doing on our avatar screens because it's been "bugged" and they using damage percent as a selling point on plat pets when they know that it's useless if u have two rogues rotating veil is dishonest.

[Kakashis]

Wow my mind is blown as to how damage % works. Essentially they override each other instead of stacking! You would think that information about this would have been available to us earlier? I'll put damage points into crit instead as they do nothing when u use damage pets or stand in a veil. Heck might as well take away that damage factor of veil out and put it in speed. Can't believe the system is so different from what I thought it was.

[Classychic]

Before elixirs were made tradeable thru kits there wasn't much thought to buying DMG elixirs except for when running time constrained APs such as Haunted and The Great Defiler. Does this render damage pets useless? Normal people don't run on elixirs so they still hold value. This changes the way I spec and use my veil though, I wont bother always trying to stay inside it anymore :)

Edit since just saw wv and kakashis' posts: lol we really are much concerned about our veil!

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[FluffNStuff]

I can say I tested the archon ring stat wise vs the same stats and my damage SHOWED 2.5% higher, so I assume it is being applied differently.
As for going forward, this is screaming for Singe damage percent to be changed to crit. PvPers prefer crit and for PvE if you spend 11M on a pet 12K for damage is in the noise.

Then again, by this time next week I will probably have given up on the eunuch and will just get Sam like everyone else.

[falmear]

Also, I find it odd that the damage modifiers are bugged so we couldn't see on our screens that all these damage pets we've been buying are worthless.

They aren't worthless but very situational. If you are a rogue with veil then if you have to choose between 2 pets with the same stats but one has crit while the other has damage, then you should go with the pet with crit or not use pets with only damage buff like flap jack or loki. If you are in a party with a rogue that has veil then depending on your playing style you may not want to choose a pet with a damage buff. If you use combo elixir, you need to consider which pet you use. In PvP, veil is not very popular so I don't think it affects PvP as much. But a pet's arcane like Orion which does 10% damage buff for party is useless. Because most pets boost damage 10% or greater.

[keikali]

I can say I tested the archon ring stat wise vs the same stats and my damage SHOWED 2.5% higher, so I assume it is being applied differently.
As for going forward, this is screaming for Singe damage percent to be changed to crit. PvPers prefer crit and for PvE if you spend 11M on a pet 12K for damage is in the noise.

Then again, by this time next week I will probably have given up on the eunuch and will just get Sam like everyone else.

I'd like to here about the Archon applications as well.

[GoodSyntax]

I will ask a guildie to borrow an Archon ring and rerun my test with Loki on Monday (I rarely play on weekends)...

[flluby2]

I always suspected those armor and damage passive does nothing much. While trying during free respec week, didnt feel a thing with those, but with everyone suggesting otherwise, I respeced to armor and dmg passive. Great, i wasted so much plats going back n forth now. its supposed to be just 3 plats per skills respec, but well we got no choice but to go with the full 5 plats respec o.O
Thanks for shedding some light to this Kalizzaa, or else we are all in the dark guessing, and well, lost.

[keikali]

I always suspected those armor and damage passive does nothing much. While trying during free respec week, didnt feel a thing with those, but with everyone suggesting otherwise, I respeced to armor and dmg passive. Great, i wasted so much plats going back n forth now. its supposed to be just 3 plats per skills respec, but well we got no choice but to go with the full 5 plats respec o.O
Thanks for shedding some light to this Kalizzaa, or else we are all in the dark guessing, and well, lost.

For a Warrior, the 5% Armor bonus is not useless. I can't think of anything else that would apply a Armor % bonus besides a Rogues SV with a 20% Buff to Armor. This just shows that the 5/5 in Damage Passive for ALL classes is better used elswhere.

[Serancha]

In testing passives (namely damage vs crit), people have always tested without pet, to reduce variables. The conclusions and resulting guides were correct based on clean testing. Because pets add so many variables, it is unsurprising that this was not caught before.

Initial tests also look like shadow veil damage is included in this non-stacking situation, making the damage upgrade almost worthless when using a pet like Sam, and totally useless for those using abaddon or whim.

My damage output also appeared unchanged when using archon ring vs mythic ring along with damage pet. However, the difference was visible when testing the 2 rings petless.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[FluffNStuff]

Will try to also actually test the damage on the archon ring, but since I was seeing it in stats, that means it is a pre-bonus to damage. The mob i test on blocks 45% damage, so I would have to assume the effect is only going to be 45% of 2.5% of the after armor.

[Serancha]

Sample size for the archon test was approx 60 mobs repeated with each of the following setups. (as i say this was preliminary testing, so the sample size is a bit small to be definitive).

Mythic ring no pet
Archon ring no pet
Mythic ring with loki
Archon ring with loki



My mythic and archon rings give the same damage before the 2.5% of the arch is added, making this as clean a test as I could get.

[keikali]

Sample size for the archon test was approx 60 mobs repeated with each of the following setups. (as i say this was preliminary testing, so the sample size is a bit small to be definitive).

Mythic ring no pet
Archon ring no pet
Mythic ring with loki
Archon ring with loki



My mythic and archon rings give the same damage before the 2.5% of the arch is added, making this as clean a test as I could get.

Serancha, what map was this tested on? Try testing on one with the same difficulty but different zone if possible.

[Serancha]

I split the test between 4 different elite maps. Brackenridge forest and village because they are arcane standard for testing. Rooks nest and windmoore harbor for longer lifespan of mobs. I didn't have time to proceed to scaled maps yet - just not enough time in the day.

Also did a few tests with flapjack to eliminate any possible loki-specific gltches

[twoxc]

Does this also mean for rogue using AIMSHOT SKILL which constantly give a 10% damage buff rendering our passive 5% damage? And also any pet buff with 10% damage lol?

[GoodSyntax]

Does this also mean for rogue using AIMSHOT SKILL which constantly give a 10% damage buff rendering our passive 5% damage? And also any pet buff with 10% damage lol?

That's a good question. I will test that on Monday as well

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[keikali]

Does this also mean for rogue using AIMSHOT SKILL which constantly give a 10% damage buff rendering our passive 5% damage? And also any pet buff with 10% damage lol?


That's a good question. I will test that on Monday as well

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Already tested by Parf ingame. The 10% is applied differently and does not override anything.

[GoodSyntax]

Already tested by Parf ingame. The 10% is applied differently and does not override anything.

I think we all need to take some time to determine which bonuses get overidden and which do not.

Was this tested with a %DMG bonus (Loki or DMG elixir)?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[Anarchial]

Wow hats off to the finder. Thats all I can say. I personally wanted to thank everyone but its too long a list, so just have it here xD. Also let me get this straight. Any percentage buff modifier(armor,damage,crit) gets overridden by the max percentage modifier, right? So if I have 5% crit passive and I use ribbit aa(40% crit) basically I am getting 40% crit then right?

[Serancha]

Crit is not the same.

[Anarchial]

Sera, so crit actually stacks then with passive? Also then which passives then just take highest modifier? Only dmg and armor?

[GoodSyntax]

Sera, so crit actually stacks then with passive? Also then which passives then just take highest modifier? Only dmg and armor?

I believe that Speed is affected as well...

[Anarchial]

Hi sera and good,
I still have one query and will be quite grateful if you took your time to read it through.

Here is the scenario:
My warrior has 328% dmg modifier when naked(no item or weapon or pet) with a 4% dmg passive. Since I didnt want to respec I believe my dmg modifier if I removed my passive would be then 324%. Now when I equip only abbadon pet(has 15% dmg) my dmg modifier becomes 334% and not 339%. Where is the other 5% going? :O

If you or any dev could shed any light into I would be grateful. Thank again

[Serancha]

Nobody knows how bonus damage works. At least nobody I have been able to find. Kalizza knows more about this than I do. I'm just trying to help with testing.

[GoodSyntax]

Hi sera and good,
I still have one query and will be quite grateful if you took your time to read it through.

Here is the scenario:
My warrior has 328% dmg modifier when naked(no item or weapon or pet) with a 4% dmg passive. Since I didnt want to respec I believe my dmg modifier if I removed my passive would be then 324%. Now when I equip only abbadon pet(has 15% dmg) my dmg modifier becomes 334% and not 339%. Where is the other 5% going? :O

If you or any dev could shed any light into I would be grateful. Thank again

Bonus DMG and DMG % are not related.

Bonus DMG is used to calculate your DMG stat. So, if you had a hammer with 15 DPS, and it hit once a second, the DMG value is 15. If your Bonus DMG % is 200, then your total DMG stat should be 30 (15 from the hammer x 2.00 from the Bonus DMG %). At least that is how I understand it.

[Nesox]

Can someone confirm for me then that the AA of Shadowlurk is actually an additional 10% dmg (for 20% effectively)? This thread and the wording of the AA has me wondering if it is written as a stacked 10%/10% which is not gonna work?

[Anarchial]

Bonus DMG and DMG % are not related.

Bonus DMG is used to calculate your DMG stat. So, if you had a hammer with 15 DPS, and it hit once a second, the DMG value is 15. If your Bonus DMG % is 200, then your total DMG stat should be 30 (15 from the hammer x 2.00 from the Bonus DMG %). At least that is how I understand it.

Thanks Kalizzaa,
I just checked. You are absolutely right as always. For warriors every 1 point in str results in dmg modifier being increased by 0.4. That was what was happening with my abaddon. So to test whether extra dmg% related queriws I cant do it through numbers on my avatar screen. I have to actually field test, then?

[GoodSyntax]

Thanks Kalizzaa,
I just checked. You are absolutely right as always. For warriors every 1 point in str results in dmg modifier being increased by 0.4. That was what was happening with my abaddon. So to test whether extra dmg% related queriws I cant do it through numbers on my avatar screen. I have to actually field test, then?

Yes, the problem is that the speed of our weapons are unknown. You have to estimate the speed and calculate the DMG from DPS/Weapon Speed.

[Anarchial]

Yes, the problem is that the speed of our weapons are unknown. You have to estimate the speed and calculate the DMG from DPS/Weapon Speed.

I just did an approximate mean and the results were as told by dev. The 5% dmg of my passive didnt count when 15% dmg abaddon was equipped. Only 15% counted. This calculation was probably done so that we players dont become OP by stack process. But I have been now thinking does the armor passive work or not? Cause I blv like the damage passive it doesnt show on screen and well,by now I can't trust it lol. Probably I need a few respecs to find that out by doing a mean. Crit stacks tho as were told by you and serancha :)

[Solid]

I believe this DMG % thing is complete BS, not to bash on STS but this is basically the Placebo Effect.

The Placebo effect is when you are given a null pill that has no effects whatsoever and when you take it, you feel better. It is physiological, your brain thinks it will make you feel better, so it makes you feel better. Like this DMG bs, the passives are just in fact, a null pill.

To clarify, we should not be using damage passives? The 'glitched' passives were in fact 'tiny print on the product that it people read noone would buy'.

I really don't want to bash on STS but this is just inconceivable, this "glitched passive" would have boosted sales tremendously and made them a good buck, at this point I don't know what to say and am literally dumbfounded....

[Serancha]

I don't know that they were glitched. But I do know many of us spent a whole lot of plat in the last year stacking elixirs that it now turns out were not-stackable at all. Not only did they not stack, they didn't even add on top of what we already had. Replacing it instead.

How much money was spent in error because this was not disclosed? I would have spent as much in any case, but it bothers me that this feels like a hidden way to make money for nothing.

[Kakashis]

Well it was stated that luck can be stacked up to 65% if you buy luck lix, then combo lix, and then wear a lep. I question this now as well. Does having luck lix just go to 25% regardless of wearing a lep on top or if you have combo? I mean really anything is now possible if damage was this messed up from the start.

[FluffNStuff]

Well it was stated that luck can be stacked up to 65% if you buy luck lix, then combo lix, and then wear a lep. I question this now as well. Does having luck lix just go to 25% regardless of wearing a lep on top or if you have combo? I mean really anything is now possible if damage was this messed up from the start.

I have had the luck trifecta before (own combo + own single + Klause single) and using a Lep that puts you at near 100 and have run km3 with every single thing rerolling for a half hour straight. It maybe capped, but if so it is capped extremely high and does stack.

[Xbadboyx]

I don't wanna read the entire novel but I have a few questions .
if I use abbadon while I have 5% dmg in passives will the passives buff be useless?
If I use archon ring while I have 5% armor will the passives armor be useless?
ty

[Serancha]

Re: Abaddon (15% damage add) Correct. The higher % of damage from abaddon is given to you instead of the passive. So passive = null and void

Re: Archon, it is looking like that may be the case. I think everyone is still in the early stages on these tests.

[keikali]

None of this is glitched at all. In fact all of it was working as intended. STS did not expect anyone, (GJ Kalizza) to actually go in-depth and do thorough step by step testing on the modifiers.

According to null_void who is one of their programmers, the code was designed to take the SINGLE highest modifier and use that as a multiplier for the Damage %.

From what null_void has said, Damage % along with Armor % both work the same as the SINGLE highest modifier will be used as the multiplier. Luck however is different and does stack and the single modifier rule is not applied.

You would ask yourself why would STS come out in the open with this information now? Plain and simple, the next client update will correct the so called "display" error where stats are not properly being shown. So if this was fixed, you can basically see that your Damage is not stacking so might as well come out and air your dirty laundry now and deal with the mob then wait till the new client hits.

[Oonova]

So when I bought combo elixer and dmg on top, it doesn't stack? It just becomes the 30% dmg from combo and the 25% dmg lix is just null?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Midievalmodel]

From a warriors perspective. I use VB alot in PVP as well as PVE. VB provides +25% damage increase......basically as much as a damage elixir (25%) or better than any pet available out there. In addition, VB cooldown is pretty fast so you can use it after basically every mob you encounter. So.......for a warrior with VB there is basically minimal if any advantage of using a pet with increase damage passive? So sad.....

[keikali]

So when I bought combo elixer and dmg on top, it doesn't stack? It just becomes the 30% dmg from combo and the 25% dmg lix is just null?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct. Damage % are not additives and do not stack. The single highest modifier will be use as a multiplier for calculation.


From a warriors perspective. I use VB alot in PVP as well as PVE. VB provides +25% damage increase......basically as much as a damage elixir (25%) or better than any pet available out there. In addition, VB cooldown is pretty fast so you can use it after basically every mob you encounter. So.......for a warrior with VB there is basically minimal if any advantage of using a pet with increase damage passive? So sad.....

This can be said the same for a Rogues SV. These are temporary "skill" buffs and not really good for determining whether its useful or not. They are very situational. There is NO PET that is close enough to 25% Damage increase. The only thing stable would be Elixirs. So using VB for a temporary boost that overrides your other lower modifiers is not a bad idea. Again all situational.

[Serancha]

None of this is glitched at all. In fact all of it was working as intended. STS did not expect anyone, (GJ Kalizza) to actually go in-depth and do thorough step by step testing on the modifiers.

According to null_void who is one of their programmers, the code was designed to take the SINGLE highest modifier and use that as a multiplier for the Damage %.

From what null_void has said, Damage % along with Armor % both work the same as the SINGLE highest modifier will be used as the multiplier. Luck however is different and does stack and the single modifier rule is not applied.

You would ask yourself why would STS come out in the open with this information now? Plain and simple, the next client update will correct the so called "display" error where stats are not properly being shown. So if this was fixed, you can basically see that your Damage is not stacking so might as well come out and air your dirty laundry now and deal with the mob then wait till the new client hits.

I don't know if elixir damage is intended to show on stat sheets, even after the new client comes. Somehow I doubt that.

However, I do agree that once the pet and passives were opened up to view, questions were going to start coming. Kalizza's timely experiments could not have been predicted, so I think this was not a construed release of info, as much as "well, we better get it over with" once it was spotted.

[falmear]

I don't wanna read the entire novel but I have a few questions .
if I use abbadon while I have 5% dmg in passives will the passives buff be useless?
If I use archon ring while I have 5% armor will the passives armor be useless?
ty

1) If you use Abaddon 15% damage + 5% passive damage, you only get 15%. The damage passive is useless.
2) Archon Ring of Potency which gives +2.5% armor shows up on the stats page. So it works difference, so it doesn't negate the durable passive or vice versa.

[falmear]

None of this is glitched at all. In fact all of it was working as intended. STS did not expect anyone, (GJ Kalizza) to actually go in-depth and do thorough step by step testing on the modifiers.


Glitched or not they should have said something sooner but all we heard was they don't show up on the stats page but they are working. See this well known thread:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?79913-Known-Issue-with-Passive-Abilities&highlight=passive


There are currently display bugs with the Passive Abilities that improve Armor, Damage and Critical Chance. All abilities are functioning correctly, but they are not correctly reflected in the Character Statistics displayed in the Avatar tab.

They could have mentioned you only get the highest modifier. There were so many threads on this but we were repeatedly told its all working. Well the devil is in the details and we should have been told when we were not getting it. I can't say I was too effected by this because I only spec'd passive damage in PvE, and used those points for crit in PvP. But like others I tested this without a pet so it was easier to quantify the damage increase. And this was a flaw in the testing. And if others tested it with a pet and that pet may not have given a damage boost. So this is something which should have been clarified.

[Solid]

Glitched or not they should have said something sooner but all we heard was they don't show up on the stats page but they are working. See this well known thread:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?79913-Known-Issue-with-Passive-Abilities&highlight=passive



They could have mentioned you only get the highest modifier. There were so many threads on this but we were repeatedly told its all working. Well the devil is in the details and we should have been told when we were not getting it. I can't say I was too effected by this because I only spec'd passive damage in PvE, and used those points for crit in PvP. But like others I tested this without a pet so it was easier to quantify the damage increase. And this was a flaw in the testing. And if others tested it with a pet and that pet may not have given a damage boost. So this is something which should have been clarified.

How to +1000?

[eeknoh]

I lol @ the fact they -still- can't get it to show on stats page. I'm sorry but a bug like that existing for how long? As long as ive been plying thats for sure.. Is funny to me. I'm sure theyre able to fix it. I just don't know why they havent.. Perhaps its not that important in their eyes. But 90% of players care about knowjng their actual stats.

I /cry at the fact my damage passive ive used since day 1 has always been 5 wasted points.. I did the research and what I read caused me to assume it would be stacking. Actually my assumption was that the 5% was calculated and added to the damage stat before anything else it just didnt show. I would personally then take that # and add any other % after. I always assumed this capped at 30%. I keep saying assume because stg has made an *** out of u and me...and while I feel slighted to a small degree, I should know better. And i made the mistake of not asking exact questions to get exact clarification on how this works.. On the other hand..

Shouldnt there be a sticky somewhere that gives GREAT detail about how any and all % increases/decreases work in arcane legend? Come on guys.. These questions pop up constantly. Some programmer that deals with this needs to plop down, pop a bag of cheetohs, and get to typing out this info jn GREAT VERY CLEAR DETAIL....please. And thank you.

[GoodSyntax]

Glitched or not they should have said something sooner but all we heard was they don't show up on the stats page but they are working. See this well known thread:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?79913-Known-Issue-with-Passive-Abilities&highlight=passive



They could have mentioned you only get the highest modifier. There were so many threads on this but we were repeatedly told its all working. Well the devil is in the details and we should have been told when we were not getting it. I can't say I was too effected by this because I only spec'd passive damage in PvE, and used those points for crit in PvP. But like others I tested this without a pet so it was easier to quantify the damage increase. And this was a flaw in the testing. And if others tested it with a pet and that pet may not have given a damage boost. So this is something which should have been clarified.

As some of you know, I am a programmer myself, and I manage several software packages. One of my software suites has over 2.1 million lines of code on the client application, over 4 million lines of code on the database end, plus another 0.75 million lines of code in web services and system services. There are a lot of moving pieces that make up a piece of software. The more complicated the software, the less likely it will be that any one person will be able to tell you with 100% certainty how it all works together.

The best any development team can do is create test cases that test each independent scenario. I can easily see how this situation can develop, because individually, each test passes as expected. It isn't until you start mixing differing scenarios that your test cases can break down. No one in their right mind would write a test script to validate a 5/5 DMG passive plus a 10% DMG Bonus from a Pet, on top of a 15% bonus from Shadow Veil, a 2.5% bonus from an Archon ring and a 25% DMG Elixir. There are far too many variables to account for in that test case for it to correctly break down into a pass/fail condition.

The assumption would be that individually each scenario has been tested and validated, and it is inappropriate to test in all possible combinations. Conditions such as these fall through the cracks all the time in software development, so now that it has been identified, I'm sure STS will do something about it in their next client update.

[Anarchial]

1) If you use Abaddon 15% damage + 5% passive damage, you only get 15%. The damage passive is useless.
2) Archon Ring of Potency which gives +2.5% armor shows up on the stats page. So it works difference, so it doesn't negate the durable passive or vice versa.

I dont think 2.5% armor of archon works even if it shows in stats. I say this because the archon ring dmg version also shows +2.5% increase in dmg in stat screen but initial testing by Serancha did suggest that it does nothing. And since null_and_void already said that armor and dmg both work in the same way it is safe to assume that the buff of armor version of archon ring is rendered useless if u have 5% armor passive

[Kakashis]

I just hope STS addresses this lack of damage stacking in future updates. Abbadon is actually quite good after finding out all this out. It changes the dynamics of game play as well! No point standing in Veil to get extra damage if its going to just match your pet damage.

[falmear]

As some of you know, I am a programmer myself, and I manage several software packages. One of my software suites has over 2.1 million lines of code on the client application, over 4 million lines of code on the database end, plus another 0.75 million lines of code in web services and system services. There are a lot of moving pieces that make up a piece of software. The more complicated the software, the less likely it will be that any one person will be able to tell you with 100% certainty how it all works together.

The best any development team can do is create test cases that test each independent scenario. I can easily see how this situation can develop, because individually, each test passes as expected. It isn't until you start mixing differing scenarios that your test cases can break down. No one in their right mind would write a test script to validate a 5/5 DMG passive plus a 10% DMG Bonus from a Pet, on top of a 15% bonus from Shadow Veil, a 2.5% bonus from an Archon ring and a 25% DMG Elixir. There are far too many variables to account for in that test case for it to correctly break down into a pass/fail condition.

The assumption would be that individually each scenario has been tested and validated, and it is inappropriate to test in all possible combinations. Conditions such as these fall through the cracks all the time in software development, so now that it has been identified, I'm sure STS will do something about it in their next client update.

This is a documentation issue not a software bug. They probably knew this is how it worked from the beginning. And didn't reveal it to us until they had to.

[Serancha]

The code was built in this game for layered buffs. The proof in this is how the key functionality of the game is set up and marketed for stacking of luck elixirs and xp elixirs. It is impossible to believe that they "forgot" to put the code in, or to discuss how to accomodate for layered damage buffs as well. If nobody was thinking about it, archon rings would never have been developed. Their main attribute is % damage addition (for a certain variety).

I can't see anyone believing that the development team did not consider how archon damage would mix with damage elixirs and pet % damage. Or when pets come out with % damage buffs, that nobody even thinks "hey how does this work with passives" etc. The development in this game is not sloppy, and the devs are extremely intelligent. This is not something they would miss.

At some point it had to have been conciously decided how they were going to implement these multi-leveled buffs, of all types. This is shown in how they made luck and xp stack. There is no way around it, there was a choice made to make the damage buffs act this specific way. Keeping game mechanics secret is part of the fun. The problem here is that they were selling products by completely misleading the public as to what the items (elixirs) actually did.

[aspire]

If i use dmg elixir and some pet skill which should give dmg, like scorn,does they stack?
Or how about shadow veil and dmg elixir? Or veil and pet skill?
Last, aimed shot accuracy add? Does it happens if i have dmg elixir on

[falmear]

The code was built in this game for layered buffs. The proof in this is how the key functionality of the game is set up and marketed for stacking of luck elixirs and xp elixirs. It is impossible to believe that they "forgot" to put the code in, or to discuss how to accomodate for layered damage buffs as well. If nobody was thinking about it, archon rings would never have been developed. Their main attribute is % damage addition (for a certain variety).

I can't see anyone believing that the development team did not consider how archon damage would mix with damage elixirs and pet % damage. Or when pets come out with % damage buffs, that nobody even thinks "hey how does this work with passives" etc. The development in this game is not sloppy, and the devs are extremely intelligent. This is not something they would miss.

At some point it had to have been conciously decided how they were going to implement these multi-leveled buffs, of all types. This is shown in how they made luck and xp stack. There is no way around it, there was a choice made to make the damage buffs act this specific way. Keeping game mechanics secret is part of the fun. The problem here is that they were selling products by completely misleading the public as to what the items (elixirs) actually did.

Some pets that give damage buff are Flouder (5%), Cinder (5%), Bop-bop (10%), Timber (5%), Esteban (10%). This is just to name a few and these are all S1 pets. I find it hard to believe that they didn't know that the higher buff is the one which went into effect and these buffs don't stack. I don't care how it is, I just want to know how it works. Anyways, I am glad we now know but they should not have waited so long to tell us. Specifically because people were complaining that these buffs did not show up on the stats page and we were repeatedly re-assured they were in effect when in realty they were not.

[deathwraithx]

Does this also imply that shadowlurks AA and arcane don't stack? :/

Sent from my Xperia U using Tapatalk 4

[Limsi]

I've been using Singe + dmg lix + shadow veil = Zomg.

Props to Kalizza and the rest of the gang who are following this intensive research!

[Zeus]

As some of you know, I am a programmer myself, and I manage several software packages. One of my software suites has over 2.1 million lines of code on the client application, over 4 million lines of code on the database end, plus another 0.75 million lines of code in web services and system services. There are a lot of moving pieces that make up a piece of software. The more complicated the software, the less likely it will be that any one person will be able to tell you with 100% certainty how it all works together.

The best any development team can do is create test cases that test each independent scenario. I can easily see how this situation can develop, because individually, each test passes as expected. It isn't until you start mixing differing scenarios that your test cases can break down. No one in their right mind would write a test script to validate a 5/5 DMG passive plus a 10% DMG Bonus from a Pet, on top of a 15% bonus from Shadow Veil, a 2.5% bonus from an Archon ring and a 25% DMG Elixir. There are far too many variables to account for in that test case for it to correctly break down into a pass/fail condition.

The assumption would be that individually each scenario has been tested and validated, and it is inappropriate to test in all possible combinations. Conditions such as these fall through the cracks all the time in software development, so now that it has been identified, I'm sure STS will do something about it in their next client update.

To be fair, they did do this for PL although all the elixir stacking broke the game..LOL!

[falmear]

I dont think 2.5% armor of archon works even if it shows in stats. I say this because the archon ring dmg version also shows +2.5% increase in dmg in stat screen but initial testing by Serancha did suggest that it does nothing. And since null_and_void already said that armor and dmg both work in the same way it is safe to assume that the buff of armor version of archon ring is rendered useless if u have 5% armor passive

The issue with durable passive vs archon ring of potency armor buff is whether or not they are the same category. The archon ring of potency (warrior) shows the damage reduction icon. The archon ring of potency (rogue) shows the damage icon so I can see why damage from pet cancels out the ring's damage boost. But the question is what armor passives by pets, damage reduction by pets, equipment or passive skill fall into the damage reduction category. And which ones will cancel the other ones out. For example Singe has the text 'Damaged Reduced by 4%'. So lets say you have durable passive which is +5% armor. Are you not getting the 4%? Or if you have archon ring of potency with +2.5% armor, does Singe cancel out your ring's buff. Someone needs to clarify this because this would require massive testing and its too difficult to get everyone to test in the same way and eliminate all the variables.

[keikali]

If i use dmg elixir and some pet skill which should give dmg, like scorn,does they stack?
Or how about shadow veil and dmg elixir? Or veil and pet skill?
Last, aimed shot accuracy add? Does it happens if i have dmg elixir on


The issue with durable passive vs archon ring of potency armor buff is whether or not they are the same category. The archon ring of potency (warrior) shows the damage reduction icon. The archon ring of potency (rogue) shows the damage icon so I can see why damage from pet cancels out the ring's damage boost. But the question is what armor passives by pets, damage reduction by pets, equipment or passive skill fall into the damage reduction category. And which ones will cancel the other ones out. For example Singe has the text 'Damaged Reduced by 4%'. So lets say you have durable passive which is +5% armor. Are you not getting the 4%? Or if you have archon ring of potency with +2.5% armor, does Singe cancel out your ring's buff. Someone needs to clarify this because this would require massive testing and its too difficult to get everyone to test in the same way and eliminate all the variables.

Actually Damage Reduction is calculated differently from the Armor Passive which is a % Bonus to Armor. This was confirmed by null_void also, didn't remember to SS this convo in the chatbox.

[falmear]

Actually Damage Reduction is calculated differently from the Armor Passive which is a % Bonus to Armor. This was confirmed by null_void also, didn't remember to SS this convo in the chatbox.

We need a better explanation as to how because if you have a damage reduction elixir and Singe, do you get both? Also Archon Ring of Potency doesn't show up on the stats page until you equip it. And once equipped shows the damage reduction icon next to your name. How until these are specifically answered and clarified, I see this as still an open question.

[Madnex]

It's not likely that we'll get further specifications. However, damage reduction and armor are two interdependent yet also separate variables. In addition, they're worded differently in pet descriptions so it'd be logical to assume they don't overlap.

[Serancha]

Here's the related quotes re: debuffs / armor reduction:

83909



and later on, discussng the damage buff mechanics....

83910

[keikali]

Thats the SS I didn't get. Thanks Serancha!

[falmear]

Unfortunately the chat box was pruned by the time I looked this up, so the conversation isn't there. But it says they take the largest buff your character has and then later on it says damage and armor work that way. So if this statement was in relation to taking the largest buff, then the durable passive & archon ring of potency armor buff would conflict and they would take the durable buff assuming its greater then 2.5%.

[Serancha]

This would imply that pet debuffs (armor reduction etc) do not stack, at least in pvp situations. Nothing was said about debuffs on mobs though - it has always been thought that they do stack up on mobs.

[faefaefae]

Kalizzaa,

Thanks a lot for taking the trouble to do all these testings!

After reading all the above threads, I can just come to one conclusion: only trust what you can see from the stat page :dejection:

[Serancha]

only trust what you can see from the stat page :dejection:

Actually, this is incorrect when it comes to archon rings.

Second round of tests PVP Specific show:

• The % damage addition from an archon ring is nulled by pets with 15% damage. ie. The damage is the same with archon or another ring (in this case my blood ruby) which gives the same pre-% stats.

• However, a 15% damage pet only actually adds 5% damage in the ctf arena. This is the result of class balancing in pvp, I believe.

• This balancing means that a pet with 5% damage does not have its % damage counted at all, allowing the archon to actually give its bonus.

• I did not have a chance to test with a 10% damage pet yet, but these findings imply that 10% damage from pets is likely discounted in pvp


Archon armor bonus (warrior) ring does still give a benefit when used in conjunction with passive armor (in comparison to a normal warrior ring that does not have the % armor bonus). This was not tested with armor producing pets, so that is still an unknown variable.


Repeat that these are only pvp tests, and things act much differently in pve.

[Zeus]

I think we all need to take some time to determine which bonuses get overidden and which do not.

Was this tested with a %DMG bonus (Loki or DMG elixir)?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

Percent damage pet (Samael). Not using that upgrade resulted in my critical damage essentially halving.

[Anarchist]

So sts scammed us?? Or what?

I have always had this feeling that damage stacking had something wrong sometimes when running minor elites i randomly summon damage % pets standing in shadow veil and shooting at the mobs and everytime i had this feeling i should have been doing way more damage compared to my normal shots.

Upon that when i got a damage lix from Klaas i usually tried to see how much more damage i would add if i stacked the lix with my pet...while i would be expecting a huge difference compared to my normal shots i always got disappointed by the damage output.

Thought it was normal and concluded there was probably a damage stack cap at some point and never looked into it.
Then today i read this.

Lmao


@ Sts this was a nice one.

[phillyr]

Im not trying to be a sourpuss here and take away from the constructiveness of this thread...but whats the point in buying and farming all the best pets and items in the game if the items you farm dont stack with the pets you bought with money? Or the elixers we pay cash for? If such a limit exists it needs to be set in stone and announced to the players.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[GoodSyntax]

Im not trying to be a sourpuss here and take away from the constructiveness of this thread...but whats the point in buying and farming all the best pets and items in the game if the items you farm dont stack with the pets you bought with money? Or the elixers we pay cash for? If such a limit exists it needs to be set in stone and announced to the players.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

It's a matter of strategy. If you have a DMG elixir and you want to maximize damage, use a pet that gives you a stat bonus. If you do not have a DMG elixir, you can use DMG % pets like Loki and Talon.

It's a matter of knowing what will be most beneficial in any given situation.

I'm a bit bummed out about the Passives, but I will respec to fix that oversight.

Now, I'm working on whether archon bonuses actually apply before calculation or if it is negated by what was discovered.

[phillyr]

It's a matter of strategy. If you have a DMG elixir and you want to maximize damage, use a pet that gives you a stat bonus. If you do not have a DMG elixir, you can use DMG % pets like Loki and Talon.

It's a matter of knowing what will be most beneficial in any given situation.

I'm a bit bummed out about the Passives, but I will respec to fix that oversight.

Now, I'm working on whether archon bonuses actually apply before calculation or if it is negated by what was discovered.

Yes exactly. Thanks for your time on this and good luck to ya

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Samhayne]

Hey gang,

I wanted to interject some commentary about the Dev Teams culpability with the design of % damage items. The designers who made these pets and items didn't do so with any malicious aims in their hearts. They put together a suite of items out of the available statistics to modify with the aim of making items that they thought you, the players, would enjoy. When the stats of the pets or items went live and people seem delighted, it was job well done and then on to the next thing to work on.

Really, the core issue is one of documentation. Spacetime is really good at making stuff, but not all that hot in leaving behind a nice trail of documentation about it. It is something that we are working on doing better.

This issue of documentation leads to multiple problems. For example, pet abilities have been designed in the past with sufficient power that they justify a very long cooldown. The problem is, the designer who did that thought that the cooldown would always be enforced and didn't know that it could be circumvented. In a nutshell, they were lacking documentation about how pets really work. This, and other issues, are on our roadmap to address.

I really appreciate the effort Kalizzaa has put into testing these issues and bringing them to light. As a long time MMORGP player (and min/maxer) myself, I can empathize with the desire for more information. One thing that we do have fixed that will come out with the next client of Arcane Legends (a new app version) is the % display being accurately reflected in the roll up of numbers that are shown in the Avatar section. This should go a long way to helping you better understand which item or pet is the one you want to use.

As always, thanks a ton for being part of the Arcane Legends community.

Warm regards,
Samhayne

[Kellhus]

Hey gang,

I wanted to interject some commentary about the Dev Teams culpability with the design of % damage items. The designers who made these pets and items didn't do so with any malicious aims in their hearts. They put together a suite of items out of the available statistics to modify with the aim of making items that they thought you, the players, would enjoy. When the stats of the pets or items went live and people seem delighted, it was job well done and then on to the next thing to work on.

Really, the core issue is one of documentation. Spacetime is really good at making stuff, but not all that hot in leaving behind a nice trail of documentation about it. It is something that we are working on doing better.

This issue of documentation leads to multiple problems. For example, pet abilities have been designed in the past with sufficient power that they justify a very long cooldown. The problem is, the designer who did that thought that the cooldown would always be enforced and didn't know that it could be circumvented. In a nutshell, they were lacking documentation about how pets really work. This, and other issues, are on our roadmap to address.

I really appreciate the effort Kalizzaa has put into testing these issues and bringing them to light. As a long time MMORGP player (and min/maxer) myself, I can empathize with the desire for more information. One thing that we do have fixed that will come out with the next client of Arcane Legends (a new app version) is the % display being accurately reflected in the roll up of numbers that are shown in the Avatar section. This should go a long way to helping you better understand which item or pet is the one you want to use.

As always, thanks a ton for being part of the Arcane Legends community.

Warm regards,
Samhayne

Cool thanks for that Sam. Always good to hear some news straight from the horses mouth rather than speculation. This has been a really good thread and was wondering if other states have been tested in the same manner?


...

[Serancha]

Thanks for this Sam. Much appreciated.


Edit: two questions.

Will the stats displayed on the new client be the actual damage output, or the raw stats before cancellations?

Will elixir bonuses also display on stat sheet, or just natural additions?

[GoodSyntax]

More research....

I did a similar test to see if the 10% DMG stack from Aimed Shot works. I am pleased to report that it does! This includes my 5/5 DMG passive, so based on my sample, I am seeing approximately 11% gain in DMG between the first Aimed Shot and the Second, which is well within the expected margin of error.

84031

One note in my testing is that the damage values recorded are extremely peaky! Note the Min/Max values. My Min for the first aimed bottomed out at 978, while my max peaked at 2089, or more than double the low value! Same applies to the second hit as well.

[Serancha]

Was this tested with a damage pet on, naked (petless), or as a comparison? Just curious. Nice work <3

[GoodSyntax]

Was this tested with a damage pet on, naked (petless), or as a comparison? Just curious. Nice work <3

No pet. I will try the same test using Loki, but I suspect it will work as expected. I think the DMG stack falls under a different calculation than the passives. Otherwise I would have expected to see a 5% bump in DMG.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

[FluffNStuff]

With Archon Ring ............ ........... Without Archon Ring
84034 84035

Testing done in Elite Ydra on the first four mobs that spawn. I took shots at them and kept recording damage until I determined both the Maximum and the Minimum:

No Elixir:
Without Archon Ring:
332
415
With Archon Ring:
340
422

Using 25% Damage Elixir:
Without Archon Ring:
415 (25% increase)
517 (24.57% increase)

With Archon Ring:
424 (24.7% increase)
527 (24.8% increase)

[Serancha]

Yeah it's a strange thing. I just tested several zones, and most it did not appear to count but a couple it did. This might be due to the huge variation in hit strengths too. The archon thing is buggy looking. Will post numbers tomorrow after some more crunching.

[GoodSyntax]

I appreciate all of you that are lending a hand in testing. It's so cool to see so many that are willing to invest the time just to help others.

You guys rock!

[jb57542]

I guess this means shadowlurks passive is mostly useless except for the crit modifier.

[wvhills]

Hey gang,

I wanted to interject some commentary about the Dev Teams culpability with the design of % damage items. The designers who made these pets and items didn't do so with any malicious aims in their hearts. They put together a suite of items out of the available statistics to modify with the aim of making items that they thought you, the players, would enjoy. When the stats of the pets or items went live and people seem delighted, it was job well done and then on to the next thing to work on.

Really, the core issue is one of documentation. Spacetime is really good at making stuff, but not all that hot in leaving behind a nice trail of documentation about it. It is something that we are working on doing better.

This issue of documentation leads to multiple problems. For example, pet abilities have been designed in the past with sufficient power that they justify a very long cooldown. The problem is, the designer who did that thought that the cooldown would always be enforced and didn't know that it could be circumvented. In a nutshell, they were lacking documentation about how pets really work. This, and other issues, are on our roadmap to address.

I really appreciate the effort Kalizzaa has put into testing these issues and bringing them to light. As a long time MMORGP player (and min/maxer) myself, I can empathize with the desire for more information. One thing that we do have fixed that will come out with the next client of Arcane Legends (a new app version) is the % display being accurately reflected in the roll up of numbers that are shown in the Avatar section. This should go a long way to helping you better understand which item or pet is the one you want to use.

As always, thanks a ton for being part of the Arcane Legends community.

Warm regards,
Samhayne

I appreciate ur comments but we've been hearing about this passive bug fix for too long already. IMO, it's not right of u guys to sell pets for plat (real life) and use % damage as a selling point knowing full and well that % damage is worthless while standing in veil. Most elite parties I have been in have two rogues that rotate veil so my pet %damage as well as passive damage has been useless this whole time. I feel that it's dishonest and that I have been cheated. I appreciate ur apology but it's too late. This information should have been made available in season 1.

As far as pet spamming goes, I understand ur explanation but honestly, anyone who plays either PVP or runs elites just one hour a week has known about pet spamming since a month after Samael comes out.

IMO, u guys have a history of letting known bugs go unaddressed while working on that next thing to sell plat. Our stats not being accurate, pet spamming, elite bosses being bugged (wraith heart, nord boss red zones, etc) should be addressed once they are discovered and not put on a to do list. The pirate ring debacle is another thing that should have been addressed from the start instead of being allowed to spiral out of control for days.

Honestly, I'm lacking confidence in you guys right now and really wish I hadn't bought a ton of plat last plat sell.

[Bigboyblue]

Hey gang,

I wanted to interject some commentary about the Dev Teams culpability with the design of % damage items. The designers who made these pets and items didn't do so with any malicious aims in their hearts. They put together a suite of items out of the available statistics to modify with the aim of making items that they thought you, the players, would enjoy. When the stats of the pets or items went live and people seem delighted, it was job well done and then on to the next thing to work on.

Really, the core issue is one of documentation. Spacetime is really good at making stuff, but not all that hot in leaving behind a nice trail of documentation about it. It is something that we are working on doing better.

This issue of documentation leads to multiple problems. For example, pet abilities have been designed in the past with sufficient power that they justify a very long cooldown. The problem is, the designer who did that thought that the cooldown would always be enforced and didn't know that it could be circumvented. In a nutshell, they were lacking documentation about how pets really work. This, and other issues, are on our roadmap to address.

I really appreciate the effort Kalizzaa has put into testing these issues and bringing them to light. As a long time MMORGP player (and min/maxer) myself, I can empathize with the desire for more information. One thing that we do have fixed that will come out with the next client of Arcane Legends (a new app version) is the % display being accurately reflected in the roll up of numbers that are shown in the Avatar section. This should go a long way to helping you better understand which item or pet is the one you want to use.

As always, thanks a ton for being part of the Arcane Legends community.

Warm regards,
Samhayne

Sam,

Does this mean that there will not be a rewrite to the code to enable damage stacking?

[Anarchial]

I wanted to test whether armor and dame reductions really stacks or not. Even though Armor translates into damage reduction still my testing revealed that armor and damage reduction stacks. And what I found out is that the passive 5%armor(in current cap) translates to 100x to 150x(x is the variable also called damage modifier). This damage modfier is unknown but my testing revealed that for tindirin 2nd map(normal) the modifier is 0.0216. So the 5% armor translates to 2% damage reduction in normal tindirin. This modifier is even lesser in elite maps and decreases as the difficulty increases. So my testing suggests that 5 armor passive is quite USELESS for endgamers.
Please let me know if anyone finds my results wrong or wants to shed some light on the matter. I am still wondering where to put the skill points of my armor passive

[Anarchial]

One more thing I have no idea about how the armor works in pvp. Somebody go test it there. Pvp gives me nightmares

[Zeus]

More research....

I did a similar test to see if the 10% DMG stack from Aimed Shot works. I am pleased to report that it does! This includes my 5/5 DMG passive, so based on my sample, I am seeing approximately 11% gain in DMG between the first Aimed Shot and the Second, which is well within the expected margin of error.

84031

One note in my testing is that the damage values recorded are extremely peaky! Note the Min/Max values. My Min for the first aimed bottomed out at 978, while my max peaked at 2089, or more than double the low value! Same applies to the second hit as well.

I told you, Kal!

[GoodSyntax]

;-)

Yes you did, but you know the old saying...."Trust, but verify"

[baddiva]

I've done some testing on brackenrige elite (50 shots each, critical not included), and here's the result
84216

84217

And IMHo, the passive dmg buff (that always applied and gives no icon in topleft) maybe different from timed dmg buff (such as from veil, pet's AA, or maybe archon rings)..
however, I seems to agree that there must be some limitations in order those stats come in effects. Yesterday I also tries to rush in a group of mobs in elite grog beach to test 100.71% dodge, but still I ended up kissing the wooden floor.
84220

[Samhayne]

I've done some testing on brackenrige elite (50 shots each, critical not included), and here's the result
84216

84217

And IMHo, the passive dmg buff (that always applied and gives no icon in topleft) maybe different from timed dmg buff (such as from veil, pet's AA, or maybe archon rings)..
however, I seems to agree that there must be some limitations in order those stats come in effects. Yesterday I also tries to rush in a group of mobs in elite grog beach to test 100.71% dodge, but still I ended up kissing the wooden floor.
84220

I believe that Dodge has some soft and hard caps on effectiveness.

[Samhayne]

Sam,

Does this mean that there will not be a rewrite to the code to enable damage stacking?

A rewrite of stacking rules is not in the current short list of "gotta get it done now", but it is in consideration for our backlog. Rome was not built in a day and all that. I believe there are also somethings we can do in design (that are a bit faster to implement) that are possible to address the effectiveness of different statistics and stacking. However, all such changes have wide sweeping implications to balance, so they are not something we will be entering into hastily.

Thanks in advance for your understanding and patience.

[baddiva]

I believe that Dodge has some soft and hard caps on effectiveness.

Is critical too?

Honestly I think that the 100% dodge could compensate the lack of 2-sec invulnerability that the other classes have, so I patiently awaits for this lvl cap to try it. I guess my rogue should rely to potions then. Thanks anyway Sam.

[Zeus]

;-)

Yes you did, but you know the old saying...."Trust, but verify"

You and I think the same then. :)

[Serancha]

Thanks Sam. I think all we want though, is to see on our stat sheet what our actual damage is at any given time.

This means if we have passive damage and a damage pet both on, we need it to show our stats with whichever one is being actively counted. There is no point to it showing us our damage with passive as well as pet, if only one is being applied. This would be just as bad as the current problem.


Is this how it will work once the client update comes? If the devs were unaware of this non-stacking thing when fixing the display issue, I have trouble seeing how it will operate.

[Nesox]

I guess this means shadowlurks passive is mostly useless except for the crit modifier.

Not mostly... ENTIRELY. I did some testing today without pet, with pet, and with AA. The inital 10% showed up but the additional 10% from AA did not.

[Bigboyblue]

Thanks Sam. I think all we want though, is to see on our stat sheet what our actual damage is at any given time.

This means if we have passive damage and a damage pet both on, we need it to show our stats with whichever one is being actively counted. There is no point to it showing us our damage with passive as well as pet, if only one is being applied. This would be just as bad as the current problem.


Is this how it will work once the client update comes? If the devs were unaware of this non-stacking thing when fixing the display issue, I have trouble seeing how it will operate.

This is exactly what we need. As long as our true damage is shown on our stats page then we can decide what is the best option for us with ease.

[Thrindal]

A rewrite of stacking rules is not in the current short list of "gotta get it done now", but it is in consideration for our backlog. Rome was not built in a day and all that. I believe there are also somethings we can do in design (that are a bit faster to implement) that are possible to address the effectiveness of different statistics and stacking. However, all such changes have wide sweeping implications to balance, so they are not something we will be entering into hastily.

Thanks in advance for your understanding and patience.

While this issue is frustrating for us I am glad you are not entering into anything hastily. I was very concerned about balance if all of a sudden damage was calculated differently. I think, as others have stated, the best current solution is to make sure our stats on our stat sheet to be accurate. Being honest I never trusted the Damage Passive, I had no evidence but my gut said it didn't work. This is mostly because I am a programer and If there is a miscalculation in one area I never trust the calculation is right anywhere else. Calculations should always be handled through a single procedure anyway and not handled differently in different locations which I am sure STS knows.

Going forward I would think a DMG cap like the Speed cap could be a good compromise. Cap DMG at %25, have that displayed correctly on the stat sheet and let those that can fine tune things figure out how to maximize our abilities. This could make it so that the same bow, staff, or sword is not by default always the best for everyone. Right now every Rogue that can carries an Expedition Recurve of Potency if they use a bow. It would be interesting if another bow were the best if paired with a different pet or combined with different passives.

[GoodSyntax]

This morning, I did some testing on Armor passives and Shadow Veil. All results are based on recording 60 hits taken, discarding critical hits.

For reference, my Rogue has 1439 Armor, so the 5/5 Armor passive should add another 71.95 Armor. Total armor with the passive should be 1511.

Below are my results:

84420

Now, without knowing how armor affects damage reduction, it is difficult to assess how effective 5/5 Armor passive actually is.

While looking at the raw averages, one would assume that 5/5 Armor + Veil seems to stack; however, if you look at the Standard Deviation value, Veil with and without the 5/5 Armor passive implies that it does not stack.

Based on this, I can only conclude that the 5/5 Armor passive has very little value, and that the armor passive does not stack with Shadow Veil.

[Serancha]

Awesome test. Thanks kalizza

[Madnex]

Based on this, I can only conclude that the 5/5 Armor passive has very little value, and that the armor passive does not stack with Shadow Veil.
[insert sound of bubble being popped]

[GoodSyntax]

[insert sound of bubble being popped]

-.-

[Madnex]

Well if you want to look at the bright side.. erm, we're out of tests! So no more platinum draining. ;)


Thanks both kali and sery, we know all now. :)

[GoodSyntax]

Well if you want to look at the bright side.. erm, we're out of tests! So no more platinum draining. ;)


Thanks both kali and sery, we know all now. :)

If anyone wants to do a full write of up what we know, I think it may help - afterall, who will pour over 8 pages of posts with numbers, averages, means, St. Deviations, etc?

I think a quick write-up of what we discovered with stacking, passives, pet bonuses, elixirs, etc. would be very beneficial. Ordinarily, I would volunteer, but I think I've made enough people angry for one week.

[Kakashis]

now what about if we have damage reduction lix XD

[Serancha]

If anyone wants to do a full write of up what we know, I think it may help - afterall, who will pour over 8 pages of posts with numbers, averages, means, St. Deviations, etc?

I think a quick write-up of what we discovered with stacking, passives, pet bonuses, elixirs, etc. would be very beneficial. Ordinarily, I would volunteer, but I think I've made enough people angry for one week.


If someone does this, please include the test results from the other thread (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?148506-Discussion-on-the-Newly-Revealed-DMG-System) in the general section too. I put my tests in there, so as not to clutter the bug section.

*nominates Madnes so he has something to do other than pop bubbles*

[Crowsfoot]

You can thank the patch which nerfed rogue damage in PvP. Damage, armor, and DPS stats plateau at points and then spike greatly at others. Even more annoyingly, the base points I used at the 36 cap have changed. If you run elite with a maul it takes is roughly less than 2% more damage per hit than a glaive which has 6% more armor and was showing roughly 5% more damage reduction last season.

I sold the glaive and am using a coquistador shield weapon. I have slightly higher armor (less than 50, but I can't remember exactly right now) yet have another 3% damage reduction in elite Oltgar. Its ridiculous.

---

My advice to anyone doing math to find "the best" spec/gear/pet: Assume a 10% margin of error and test your top 3-5 choices on an appropriately chosen map.

[Crowsfoot]

A rewrite of stacking rules is not in the current short list of "gotta get it done now", but it is in consideration for our backlog. Rome was not built in a day and all that. I believe there are also somethings we can do in design (that are a bit faster to implement) that are possible to address the effectiveness of different statistics and stacking. However, all such changes have wide sweeping implications to balance, so they are not something we will be entering into hastily.

Thanks in advance for your understanding and patience.
Passive has been broken since season two. It's a lot of hours (months) of work to fix this, understood. However, a year seems a little too long IMO (there has been time, whether that time was actually available due to other projects taking priority is unknown to us. I also can't judge your order of priority. This post is limited in background information and is, therefore, not intended to critizise the integrity and/or choices of STS). STS has a lot of work going on, but after awhile fixing what you have is more important than making a new product (patches versus expansions). Case and point: Ford Pinto.

[phillyr]

Passive has been broken since season two. It's a lot of hours (months) of work to fix this, understood. However, a year seems a little too long IMO (there has been time, whether that time was actually available due to other projects taking priority is unknown to us. I also can't judge your order of priority. This post is limited in background information and is, therefore, not intended to critizise the integrity and/or choices of STS). STS has a lot of work going on, but after awhile fixing what you have is more important than making a new product (patches versus expansions). Case and point: Ford Pinto.

Plat purchases (I.E. new mythic pets, new limited vanity, pay to get to a certain boss instantly, new crate items) seem to take precedence over getting the core foundation of the game to work properly. I do understand they are busy...but as you stated....its been over a year on some of these issues.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[Crowsfoot]

Plat purchases (I.E. new mythic pets, new limited vanity, pay to get to a certain boss instantly, new crate items) seem to take precedence over getting the core foundation of the game to work properly. I do understand they are busy...but as you stated....its been over a year on some of these issues.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Ford Pinto ;)

[phillyr]

Lol

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