The Platinum Carrot.

[Hiosahaf]

So I've been silently (well not that silently) watching the forums and I've made a some acute observations regarding one topic- Platinum buyers. The haughty attitude of some people regarding the plat spenders is really rude. Just respect others' opinion guys! It's a public forum and everyone is allowed a say! Being nice doesn't hurt and gains you respect too. Shunning down people rudely with the Plat excuse is NOT good.

There have been many flames regarding this issue that if Platinum buyers didn't exist then game wouldn't exist and STS needs to support themselves too and etc etc. So there have been a few discussion regarding that (on an external app) and there were pretty enlightening discussions that we had.

Let me first begin by saying that I am NOT against Platinum buying, and these are just suggestions and (more of) a lengthy analysis.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-09-05-fair-to-play-fixing-free-to-play
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/195806/chasing_the_whale_examining_the_.php?print=1

So I looked up these two threads. (I am NOT talking about STS here). I'll just quickly summarise them here.

There are Free-to-play games which rely heavily on the whales. Whales are those spenders who spend tons and tons of money on the game. The game is essentially an addiction which provides this gambling high to those who are stuck at it. If you have read the links (which you should, before commenting), you can see how devastating these addictions can be.

Remember how we used to see rant threads about some people complaining that they opened x hundreds of locked crates and got nothing but worthless items? (It doesn't help at all that the forum shuts em done. Cases like these should be handled delicately IMO. Just the right and the noble thing to do) So these are the soon to be whales who get the first taste of their loss and then quit. STS hence loses a highly potential spender.

Anyways, these two links have a massive point to make. It is possible to remove the crates and still make revenue IF STS had a huge player base. One example is Team Fortress 2. This game crashed PayPal with their new introduction of cash hats. Just. Cash. Hats. The difference between STS and other biggies like is that that STS makes its money via a small player base which pays like anything (the whales) while these games are essentially free to play with just some additional things. The best gear is available only via farming. Arcane Legends has essentially become way too dependent on crates and the whales. The result of this is the evident and we can now see the clamour for gold sink. The top end of the market is essentially and mostly controlled by the whales. (I said mostly. Read back, I did say mostly!). Now the purpose of this game was that that people will play it and work hard for stuff.

(While I know that this is not possible in the case of STS. STS has come a long way from 2005 after a series of setbacks and nobody can question the motives of the devs regarding the F2P system they have. Their rise to success has been phenomenal.)

Now the purpose of this game was that that people will play it and work hard for stuff. Although one would say that it was designed to be a pick-up and put-down game. While this mantra HAS gotten STS an immensely long way (http://gamesauce.org/news/2013/08/20/gary-gattis-never-give-up-never-surrender-casual-connect-video/), there are certain aspects which do need some attention.

What the games firstly need is a large player base. An estimate puts the Pocket Legends player base at 4m-ish. I'd say 6m combining SL and DL. Factoring in Arcane Legends and BC and BD (not including them since they are relatively new), you have an immensely strong 9-10m player base (could be higher. and the base does need to expand, IMO). Now suppose each of them paid a dollar (I'll explain below why), STS will have a huge amount of 10m cash at hand for 36 people (I don't remember where, but I did see that there were 36 people in STS).

Now why would they pay a dollar?

-Simple introductions like vanities which cannot be traded for 1 dollar of plat. Introduction of fabulous items at low cost and keeping them bound to the character.
-Introduction of a lower plat bundle of 5 plat or so at 1 dollar and make somethings which are really sweet available at that price. If you've seen the vid of G I posted above, you would know which zones would be the ones to target.
-Advertisement of the game. Make lucrative stuff available to the players who sign in from FB rather than from email (example- 500g per day of login from FB). Link the games to their accounts and make them post on their walls the achievements
"Hiosahaf reached level 21 and started killing Captain Bluecrab! Join the Adventure now at Arcane Legends!"
It is really surprising- the effects advertisement can have.
-After they achieve a massive player base through publicity- Removal of the heavy whales' diet, that is, the locked crates. Feed off from the large player base which you have. SL and AL have a massive, massive, MASSIVE potential if harnessed to the max with crazy publicity. Every college student knows of DOTA and Diablo and other stuff, you don't see many of them playing AL or other Legends, even though we have the capacity for it.

So in the end I would like to conclude that the removal of the Platinum Carrot is for STS' good itself!

Please keep your comments civil and constructive. Thanks for reading!

Edit- Would love to thank EliteFamily and Livetokill for being a part of the amazing discussion. This is a product of their intelligence! Basically Live gets all the credit for bringing this topic up to Elite and me. He showed us these links and we had the discussion. So it's kinda me posting on his and our behalf. :)

Edit of edit- To the flamers (haven't seen any gratefully):
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/04/23/sete7y4e.jpg

[Hiosahaf]

~

So we saw the latest energy bars thing. You get three little money drain... er energy balls I mean. A portal spawns from mobs and you can enter it as long as you have the green ball present.

Time to regen the money.. er energy ball? 8 hours! Of course you can speed up using plat!

Is this a good idea? Nopity nope. Remember those games like "Injustice: Gods among us" where there is a timer? Or the Real steel game? Yup! Pay through the timer or put down your device and do something else. I deleted all of those games as my S4 can't handle it. Too laggy device.

So I use my laptop to play. And I have no free offers except the ones which of course don't pay and which have low input (country issues). So that means that if I play a lot, and I get say 20 portals, I can enter only 3 of em! How amazing! But the other people- nope they can run 20/20 with it!

I agree that plat spenders should have power and they already do. This is just a money making slot machine type idea to get people to use plat and widen the gap between the super rich and the super poor.

Thanks for reading and sorry for bumping my own thread. But I didn't want to create a new rant thread (the idea was tempting though, very).

Hio the poor who can't spend plats.

[Anarchist]

You my friend have taking a look behind the scenes.

#illuminated

[Jexetta]

Nice write up and analysis Hiosahaf.

[Bless]

Nice summary. I like the ideas.

If the game is supported by (mostly) 'whales' then that is a problem because premium features and new items - realistically - are intended for them and the few pure players. An average player will not keep up with the platters. For example, if an arcane ring is released at season start, it will take players atleast a month or even 2-3 months to get 100m to buy it, after you brought it, one season later it is worth a fraction of its original price and new Overpriced arcanes are out, it is not a balanced cycle. Y'know what I'm sayin?

[Emmacheese]

Awesome write up, Most of the suggestions you made are already in a game called Order & Chaos Online (mobile game) and that is why I love the game, so it deffo can be done! I haven't spent much money in AL for a long time because the addiction of crate popping is just the thrill of the gamble and I ended up giving everything I looted to friends/guildies all you do is work irl for your items in a game :/ not really much skill there and I learnt this first hand! and I'm enjoying the game a whole lot more without opening loads of crates, this is just my opinion/experience with it

[Hiosahaf]

Nice write up and analysis Hiosahaf.

Thanks! :) :D


Nice summary. I like the ideas.

If the game is supported by (mostly) 'whales' then that is a problem because premium features and new items - realistically - are intended for them and the few pure players. An average player will not keep up with the platters. For example, if an arcane ring is released at season start, it will take players atleast a month or even 2-3 months to get 100m to buy it, after you brought it, one season later it is worth a fraction of its original price and new Overpriced arcanes are out, it is not a balanced cycle. Y'know what I'm sayin?

Hey bless! :D ,

It's not just about the Arcane Ring, it's about the whole system here actually. The revenues which the small fishes can bring is quite bigger than the whales. And the Trouts which farm their way to the top gear can take a lot of time because the prices are crazily insane!


Awesome write up, Most of the suggestions you made are already in a game called Order & Chaos Online (mobile game) and that is why I love the game, so it deffo can be done! I haven't spent much money in AL for a long time because the addiction of crate popping is just the thrill of the gamble and I ended up giving everything I looted to friends/guildies all you do is work irl for your items in a game :/ not really much skill there and I learnt this first hand! and I'm enjoying the game a whole lot more without opening loads of crates, this is just my opinion/experience with it

Hey Emma! :D ,
Crate opening is basically an addiction. When you have the amount of plat and you hit open once, you're hooked to it. This results in the creation of even Beluga Whales! Beluga whales who can eat the Trouts and the Planktons without doing any effort in the game except spending money.

Now the counter argument here would be that that they work hard IRL and they just want to enjoy in-game for the few hours they can spare here. I can completely understand that. (Before I say more, remember the saying "Time is money"). Sure you work hard and are in your dream position today. It is completely obvious that you want to just chill out and open a few crates and just have a thrill- and there is nothing wrong with it either. For those who want a thrill, there can be more additions in the store items which you can enjoy! But in the long run, crate addiction is only gonna harm you (unless your surname is Gates)

(I haven't played OnC actually.. :| )

~

Thanks for keeping this friendly and constructive guys! Highly appreciated!

[Z]

I like the enthusiasm and the ideas are wonderful, but one issue, alot of players like the ability to separate themselves from the crowd. Platinum allows people to do so, its already f2p. I think the setup they have is perfect. They just need to be able to prolong and sustain a longer life cycle. Pl would have been more successful if the crate idea was infused into it imo. Once again I love your ideas and they make some sense but tbey would lose half of their game base, for the simple reason that we dont wanna be equal to each other.

[Anarchist]

I will also like to add that AL has been doing well so far, the f2p and p2w aspect of the game have been in balance till date, at least confronted to other games that enter in the free category.

The problem we are having now, due to the natural course of a F2P structured this way, the free market, the inflation ecc ecc, is that unlike before were the gap was small and somehow the game gave enough tools to the freemium players to reach the premium players side now due to the process Bless mentioned earlier the gap between the two factions is getting bigger and the game doesn't offer good tools to compensate this gap or better it offers the same old tools.

Personally i don't think gold sinks will change anything.
Rather we need to find a way to revalue the loots from the game and scale them to any price the whales will monopolize the best items to while somehow keeping the increase in price of the best items in a sane range.

[Hiosahaf]

but tbey would lose half of their game base, for the simple reason that we dont wanna be equal to each other.

Thanks for a non-flammy post first of all ;) I'd hate to see this thread closed down actually.

Alright so I'm gonna present my views and I hope you take them in a positive manner! :)

So this is a game, aight. And we're meant to play this game. What I think is that using RL money SHOULD give you a boost but not such a big boost (or big kick- if you read the links, you'd know. They're worth the read, trust me) that you enter the big league of Midas Touch gold. That is the gold cap!

The fact that a whale wants to be a whale and feed on the trouts is understandable :) But if the player base is large enough, it can be done away with!

Really, read those links :) you'll know what I'm talking about! I mean, crashing PayPal is a huge thing with just the introduction of meagre Cash Hats!!

[Z]

Thanks for a non-flammy post first of all ;) I'd hate to see this thread closed down actually.

Alright so I'm gonna present my views and I hope you take them in a positive manner! :)

So this is a game, aight. And we're meant to play this game. What I think is that using RL money SHOULD give you a boost but not such a big boost (or big kick- if you read the links, you'd know. They're worth the read, trust me) that you enter the big league of Midas Touch gold. That is the gold cap!

The fact that a whale wants to be a whale and feed on the trouts is understandable :) But if the player base is large enough, it can be done away with!

Really, read those links :) you'll know what I'm talking about! I mean, crashing PayPal is a huge thing with just the introduction of meagre Cash Hats!!
Kinda hurt :( am I know as a flamey player ?

[Hiosahaf]

Kinda hurt :( am I know as a flamey player ?

Sorry.. Didn't mean it. I say that to everyone ;) "Don't quote me and flame me" is what I usually add :D

Sorry again Zhau! My apologies..

[Hiosahaf]

I rarely put people down on forums, Zhau. Just my opinion that everyone is equal and has an equal voice irrespective of who they are! :)

~

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

[Aziiii]

From what i saw over time , big crate openers don't last long.... why? they need new stuff to do. Once they have that it's just a matter of time before they get bored.I'm sry but that's how i see it . Plat users open , Farmers take time and farm farm farm.....pvp guys kill the ones they farm with. XD
It's a cirlce, just play the game as it is :) Have fun and take care

[Zylx]

Very interesting thoughts. When one thinks about it, platinum isn't an actual boost to prosperity, but more actually a "direct and only road" as it quickly discourages the new people by inducing the belief that you would need to constantly fuel money into the game to keep up with those "whales". Quite a few players who work their butts off farming in the game for months would be easily shunned by the "whales" who could get everything within a matter of hours. It's discouraging the base growth, especially this late in the game's development, because people see all the old players with great equips, and assume that since this is a p2w game, they will never be as good as those players.

This is a game. It's supposed to be competitive. When a player sees another player far superior than they are, they become jealous and want their items at that moment in time. Hence why we have beggars. When that player learns that the top players are "whales", they will either a) buy platinum to try to keep up, or b) quit all hopes of ever reaching their level, and possibly play a different game. They'll most often choose the latter.

In order for this to be fixed, STS would need to remove the exclusivity of the platinum and turn platinum into more of a shortcut to everything. Make locked crates opennable with gold and plat, but decrease the chances even more of looting the desirables. If we remove the exclusivity of the plat, players wont be discouraged as much, especially those unable to buy platinum.

[Xenobiotic]

Hio is a carrot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wutzgood]

As a farmer who farmed and sold locked to get just about all his gear I have to say removing locked would destroy most farmers income.

90% of my gold comes from selling locked crates and without them there would be nothing worth farming. Farming Elites aren't much different from opening locked or merching in that you either hit it big or lose a ton of gold.

Without whales buying all the plat exclusive gear and selling it for gold there would be no leprechaun amulets in auction or vanities to be had. If people want to spend money to speed up the game then more power to them.

With hard work you can get anything you want in this game without spending any platinum. You used to have to buy the bundle pack just to have enough inventory slots to survive. Now it can be bought with story tokens so its really a f2p game.

Let the plat spenders keep gambling. Like Vegas ill just keep pulling in profits from it. Just my opinions of course.

[Zeus]

What I do feel that people should take from this is that STG should perhaps add a spending limit for players to help budget their paychecks if people really are spending them.

[Limsi]

Yes definitely an in-depth analysis you've got here. I'm really looking forward to farm the best items in game (arcane weapons, accessories, and pets) via elite bosses. Platinum should only ease the farming experience via elixir and other stuff such as speeding upgrades and revives. In this situation, you've got a bunch of people who would be willing to spend their cash for platinum to aid them in the tedious task of elite farming, and another bunch who's willing to enjoy a casual farming experience without shedding a single dime in the game.

[Livetokill]

@Hiosahaf Thanks for mentioning a certain someone who educated you on this topic :playful:
On a more serious note, I hope after reading the articles the discussion on decisions by STG will be made on the merits of the decisions and not end with the usual "They need to feed their kids" line since it has been proven by other games and developers that a game doesn't need to put a glass ceiling for free players to monetize it.
Also for those who think that this game is free to play cause of benign developers(it's not) and you all should definitely read the Gamasutra article to find out why.
I would like to end my rant by saying that any game that depends on spending money to avoid playing the game is inherently flawed and ends up leading to problems sooner or later(*cough*inflation*cough*)

PS: people are welcome to trash my rant to pieces

[Hiosahaf]

Hio is a carrot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You banana :p

~

I won't be quoting anyone to reply here. Just a general reply to the comments I have observed.

Yes it is true that crates have become an inherent part of the game. Come to think of it, now we can't even imagine a world without crates! Back in SI and SII things were different (Until ripmaw came along). The pre-transition periods of the game was the turning point of the game. As time passed, people became more focussed into the crates and the whole crux of the game began to lie in the crates.

The fact that you are depending upon a ingle item to drive the whole game to keep the funds going for the company is a pretty alarming one. This does show that something is wrong with the economy. There was a time when the game could thrive on its own without the crates. Of course the crates tripled (or quadrupled, I'm just a passerby to the events and this is my speculation) the revenues for STS and they saw this as a potential plat sink.

What if they had strived towards advertisement after Kraken/Nordr? I'm (still) stuck on the idea that proper advertisement of the Legends' franchise can get them the boost they need. Revenues could have even doubled due to the new players. Now STS will have two choices:
1) Feed off the new players as they turn into crate whales (2X revenue)
2) Change the basic structure of the game and implement the changes (Lower revenues initially but steady rise)

Just my opinion. Thanks for keeping this friendly guys! Highly appreciated!

[Energizeric]

Here are my thoughts....

Pocket Legends was a big experiment in the F2P model. STS tried all sorts of things in PL, and in the end the game just could not make decent money without becoming P2W. They tried the non-tradable vanity thing....few players bought them. They tried luck elixirs (even 100% re-roll elixirs)....since the best items such as Glyph and Dragon Items could not be re-rolled, players only used elixirs once in a while. You could play for months in PL without ever spending any plat and still compete with the best players. So in that sense, it was a wonderful game.

But STS could not stay in business with the little revenue that the game produced. So then they became more aggressive and tried to give more advantages to plat users to encourage more plat sales... For example, they change the re-roll mechanics so that dragon items and glyph items could now be re-rolled. So now these items dropped in price because of the vast number of them now being looted, but 99% of them were being looted by plat spenders running with 100% re-roll elixirs.

They added these turnstyle plat dungeons where you could skip the mobs and fight all 5 bosses in one dungeon in 5-10 minutes time. So some players would run these plat dungeons over and over with the 100% re-roll elixirs. Spend an hour doing that, and you are guaranteed to loot a few pricey pinks. It just became too easy to make money if you had plat. And if you didn't, farming was just too hard, and since the pinks became pretty common due to the number of them being looted by the plat spenders, it just wasn't worth it to farm. And that is why the game died.

The dilemma is, how do you get people to spend lots of plat without making the game P2W. The answer is that you give them advantages by spending plat, but without any guarantees. Because of that, the locked crates are the best idea they could have come up with. They are a gamble -- we all know that. But so is the entire game. When you loot an elite golden chest, that is a gamble too. Do you open it, or sell it? You can loot an Arcane Shard in those too. So locked crates are not a monopoly on the best items.

So yes, you are going to have those players who spend plat and end up looting nothing. Would you rather that the plat spenders can simply buy an arcane ring? I don't think so....that is by definition P2W (pay to win). Another great idea was allowing plat spenders to speed up the crafting process by spending plat. Again, it makes things more convenient, without giving any real guaranteed advantage.

And now with making everything from vanities to elixirs tradable, they are allowing plat spenders to purchase these items for other players who do not have plat. So you can now buy these items for gold in the auction. So I'm not really sure how they can make this game any more fair to non-plat spenders while still keeping it profitable.

The OP estimates the player base in the millions. I'm going to tell you that it is not even close to that. My understanding is that PL has a player base of a few thousand, and AL of probably a few hundred thousand. STS has a few dozen employees. So getting each player to spend $1 will perhaps pay the salary of a few of employees. Most non-F2P games that have a monthly fee charge $10-20 per month per player. Games that are F2P need to raise the same amount of revenue in order to be profitable. And if half the player base spends nothing, then you can double that amount for the other half. So please do realize that what is required is big spending on the part of the few in order to maintain the game (the "whales" as you call them).

But if you do put in a lot of time, you can be very successful in this game without spending much at all. Personally I have spent less than $10/month since I started playing this game, and I always managed to make the leaderboards every season. And I still have a life, run a real business, etc. So yes, it is possible. But like everything else in life, not everyone can win. So when people fail, they like to pass the blame, and blaming their failure on the fact that they don't have plat is all too easy. It's just not the truth.

[iceQueen69]

hey

hey

what's a karate expert's favorite beverage

carrot-tea

[Livetokill]

Here are my thoughts....

Pocket Legends was a big experiment in the F2P model. STS tried all sorts of things in PL, and in the end the game just could not make decent money without becoming P2W. They tried the non-tradable vanity thing....few players bought them. They tried luck elixirs (even 100% re-roll elixirs)....since the best items such as Glyph and Dragon Items could not be re-rolled, players only used elixirs once in a while. You could play for months in PL without ever spending any plat and still compete with the best players. So in that sense, it was a wonderful game.

But STS could not stay in business with the little revenue that the game produced. So then they became more aggressive and tried to give more advantages to plat users to encourage more plat sales... For example, they change the re-roll mechanics so that dragon items and glyph items could now be re-rolled. So now these items dropped in price because of the vast number of them now being looted, but 99% of them were being looted by plat spenders running with 100% re-roll elixirs.

They added these turnstyle plat dungeons where you could skip the mobs and fight all 5 bosses in one dungeon in 5-10 minutes time. So some players would run these plat dungeons over and over with the 100% re-roll elixirs. Spend an hour doing that, and you are guaranteed to loot a few pricey pinks. It just became too easy to make money if you had plat. And if you didn't, farming was just too hard, and since the pinks became pretty common due to the number of them being looted by the plat spenders, it just wasn't worth it to farm. And that is why the game died.

The dilemma is, how do you get people to spend lots of plat without making the game P2W. The answer is that you give them advantages by spending plat, but without any guarantees. Because of that, the locked crates are the best idea they could have come up with. They are a gamble -- we all know that. But so is the entire game. When you loot an elite golden chest, that is a gamble too. Do you open it, or sell it? You can loot an Arcane Shard in those too. So locked crates are not a monopoly on the best items.

So yes, you are going to have those players who spend plat and end up looting nothing. Would you rather that the plat spenders can simply buy an arcane ring? I don't think so....that is by definition P2W (pay to win). Another great idea was allowing plat spenders to speed up the crafting process by spending plat. Again, it makes things more convenient, without giving any real guaranteed advantage.

And now with making everything from vanities to elixirs tradable, they are allowing plat spenders to purchase these items for other players who do not have plat. So you can now buy these items for gold in the auction. So I'm not really sure how they can make this game any more fair to non-plat spenders while still keeping it profitable.

The OP estimates the player base in the millions. I'm going to tell you that it is not even close to that. My understanding is that PL has a player base of a few thousand, and AL of probably a few hundred thousand. STS has a few dozen employees. So getting each player to spend $1 will perhaps pay the salary of a few of employees. Most non-F2P games that have a monthly fee charge $10-20 per month per player. Games that are F2P need to raise the same amount of revenue in order to be profitable. And if half the player base spends nothing, then you can double that amount for the other half. So please do realize that what is required is big spending on the part of the few in order to maintain the game (the "whales" as you call them).

But if you do put in a lot of time, you can be very successful in this game without spending much at all. Personally I have spent less than $10/month since I started playing this game, and I always managed to make the leaderboards every season. And I still have a life, run a real business, etc. So yes, it is possible. But like everything else in life, not everyone can win. So when people fail, they like to pass the blame, and blaming their failure on the fact that they don't have plat is all too easy. It's just not the truth.

Just cause Usain Bolt can run 100m in under 10 seconds, I am guessing every human in the world can do so, if he/she can't then he/she is just a crybaby. Got It.
You say everything is super-fair and then you go on about inflation this and inflation that-all the problems that you mentioned in your earlier posts was a consequence of adding advantages to plat players. As I said earlier the when a game gives you option to pay money to avoid playing the game then it's inherently flawed.

[Zeus]

Just cause Usain Bolt can run 100m in under 10 seconds, I am guessing every human in the world can do so, if he/she can't then he/she is just a crybaby. Got It.
You say everything is super-fair and then you go on about inflation this and inflation that-all the problems that you mentioned in your earlier posts was a consequence of adding advantages to plat players. As I said earlier the when a game gives you option to pay money to avoid playing the game then it's inherently flawed.

No, the disadvantage was permanently adding the gold rewards to locked crates. STG should have kept high gold rewards only for random weekends to boost up the economy during times of drought.

However, STG is already fixing this by completely removing this source. It'll take a few weeks for the excess gold to drain out, but there is not doubt that it will.

[Hiosahaf]

Alright, time to intervene.

(I respect your points Ener, but the last point did warrant Live's reaction)

So you go to Play store and you see that the no. Of downloads is 10-50m range for PL. (I haven't seen for AL, I'll need my laptop for that, sorry :) )

Now say a player downloaded game 5 times, you still have a huge number of player base. Active player base is of course quite a different.

The thing one cannot argue to (even STS cannot) is that that making few cash off a massive player base IS the essential F2P thing. This is of course a long term approach. There have been successful MMOs on this mantras too!

I hope you get my point.

Now let's diffuse things, people? :)

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

[Livetokill]

Guys, read the articles and then comment, there are games and Devs that are making tons of money(more than STG) without even adding a shred of direct advantage to paying players. You know why people pay in those games, they enjoy playing them that's why. Here it's the other way round, here people have to pay so they don't have to experience the game in it's entirety(I wonder why?).
In the end STG will have to look at two options- Respected like Valve or Hated like EA and decide which one would they prefer to emulate.

[Hiosahaf]

Guys, read the articles and then comment, there are games and Devs that are making tons of money(more than STG) without even adding a shred of direct advantage to paying players. You know why people pay in those games, they enjoy playing them that's why. Here it's the other way round, here people have to pay so they don't have to experience the game in it's entirety(I wonder why?).
In the end STG will have to look at two giants Valve and EA and decide which one would they prefer to emulate.

The articles are really nice, yeah..

About Valve, Samhayne did say that they talked to Valve regarding Steam but they were essentially a mobile MMO and wanted to stay that way.

Yes Steam would have been a great revenue stream for STS but didn't work out unfortunately. Now all that is left is expanding the player base and emulating the biggies.

Like I said STS first needs to focus on advertising their games heavily and expand their player base.

~

Thanks for your inputs! Highly appreciate the fact that it's been going on in a civil manner!

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[falmear]

Besides crates there aren't that many places where you can spend money. And a lot of the things which required you to spend plat are now free or obtainable by using gold. The only other exception is crafting & upgrades. The problem with crates is they now return platinum and gold. So the person can keep gambling for much longer then they'd otherwise might. If you know the history and you can go back and verify this in various threads, these were added in response to complaints that you only got trash from crates and that there wasn't enough gold in the game. So instead of dropping these crappy pinks, the crates now drop gold. Before that you use to only get 1 pink and 2 epics. Every season they have adjusted and added more perks to crates so people keep spending on these.

Also I believe the new event system will have some plat element to it like tarlok. Where to fight the boss you pay plat to enter.

[Hiosahaf]

Besides crates there aren't that many places where you can spend money. And a lot of the things which required you to spend plat are now free or obtainable by using gold. The only other exception is crafting & upgrades. The problem with crates is they now return platinum and gold. So the person can keep gambling for much longer then they'd otherwise might. If you know the history and you can go back and verify this in various threads, these were added in response to complaints that you only got trash from crates and that there wasn't enough gold in the game. So instead of dropping these crappy pinks, the crates now drop gold. Before that you use to only get 1 pink and 2 epics. Every season they have adjusted and added more perks to crates so people keep spending on these.

Also I believe the new event system will have some plat element to it like tarlok. Where to fight the boss you pay plat to enter.

Hey Falmear!

Thanks for commenting first of all in a positive manner.

The crate area is like the Vegas area in AL. Full of gambling. If you've read the article (which I recommend you do), you'd know what that results into. Plus, popping crates is just a shortcut (like Zylx pointed out again) to the top. Envisioning a system where the best gear is earned only via farming is not bad actually. If Team Fortress 2 can crasg PayPal with just cash hats, I believe AL can do it, too. Provided we have the needed player base. The marketing strategy is something that needs a bit of focus on actually to achieve this.

Remember we're talking long term here! It's not something overnight :)

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[Energizeric]

So you go to Play store and you see that the no. Of downloads is 10-50m range for PL. (I haven't seen for AL, I'll need my laptop for that, sorry :) )

Now say a player downloaded game 5 times, you still have a huge number of player base. Active player base is of course quite a different.

Active player base is what counts. There was some discussion a few months ago on a thread in the PL forum where Sam gave approximate numbers of "regular" players. A player who signs in once per month is never going to spend any money, so I don't think that person counts as part of the player base. But he basically said that PL was almost dead when they launched AL, and that if they had not launched AL they would have had to close down and go out of business.

PL may have been a game that lots of players loved, but it was not a profitable game and thus a failure for STS. Most new companies have investors, so they can survive for a certain period of time without being profitable, but eventually they must turn a profit or they are done. Arcane Legends is obviously the first STS game that has succeeded in that.

[Hiosahaf]

Active player base is what counts. There was some discussion a few months ago on a thread in the PL forum where Sam gave approximate numbers of "regular" players. A player who signs in once per month is never going to spend any money, so I don't think that person counts as part of the player base. But he basically said that PL was almost dead when they launched AL, and that if they had not launched AL they would have had to close down and go out of business.

If player base is a mine, then active player base is the amount of minerals present in the mine. I completely agree to your view point, Ener.

What I'm suggesting isn't something to implement right now- but something in long term. I really hope you read the links else you wouldn't understand why am I linking to all this..

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[Anarchist]

Here are my thoughts....

Pocket Legends was a big experiment in the F2P model. STS tried all sorts of things in PL, and in the end the game just could not make decent money without becoming P2W. They tried the non-tradable vanity thing....few players bought them. They tried luck elixirs (even 100% re-roll elixirs)....since the best items such as Glyph and Dragon Items could not be re-rolled, players only used elixirs once in a while. You could play for months in PL without ever spending any plat and still compete with the best players. So in that sense, it was a wonderful game.

But STS could not stay in business with the little revenue that the game produced. So then they became more aggressive and tried to give more advantages to plat users to encourage more plat sales... For example, they change the re-roll mechanics so that dragon items and glyph items could now be re-rolled. So now these items dropped in price because of the vast number of them now being looted, but 99% of them were being looted by plat spenders running with 100% re-roll elixirs.

They added these turnstyle plat dungeons where you could skip the mobs and fight all 5 bosses in one dungeon in 5-10 minutes time. So some players would run these plat dungeons over and over with the 100% re-roll elixirs. Spend an hour doing that, and you are guaranteed to loot a few pricey pinks. It just became too easy to make money if you had plat. And if you didn't, farming was just too hard, and since the pinks became pretty common due to the number of them being looted by the plat spenders, it just wasn't worth it to farm. And that is why the game died.

The dilemma is, how do you get people to spend lots of plat without making the game P2W. The answer is that you give them advantages by spending plat, but without any guarantees. Because of that, the locked crates are the best idea they could have come up with. They are a gamble -- we all know that. But so is the entire game. When you loot an elite golden chest, that is a gamble too. Do you open it, or sell it? You can loot an Arcane Shard in those too. So locked crates are not a monopoly on the best items.

So yes, you are going to have those players who spend plat and end up looting nothing. Would you rather that the plat spenders can simply buy an arcane ring? I don't think so....that is by definition P2W (pay to win). Another great idea was allowing plat spenders to speed up the crafting process by spending plat. Again, it makes things more convenient, without giving any real guaranteed advantage.

And now with making everything from vanities to elixirs tradable, they are allowing plat spenders to purchase these items for other players who do not have plat. So you can now buy these items for gold in the auction. So I'm not really sure how they can make this game any more fair to non-plat spenders while still keeping it profitable.

The OP estimates the player base in the millions. I'm going to tell you that it is not even close to that. My understanding is that PL has a player base of a few thousand, and AL of probably a few hundred thousand. STS has a few dozen employees. So getting each player to spend $1 will perhaps pay the salary of a few of employees. Most non-F2P games that have a monthly fee charge $10-20 per month per player. Games that are F2P need to raise the same amount of revenue in order to be profitable. And if half the player base spends nothing, then you can double that amount for the other half. So please do realize that what is required is big spending on the part of the few in order to maintain the game (the "whales" as you call them).

But if you do put in a lot of time, you can be very successful in this game without spending much at all. Personally I have spent less than $10/month since I started playing this game, and I always managed to make the leaderboards every season. And I still have a life, run a real business, etc. So yes, it is possible. But like everything else in life, not everyone can win. So when people fail, they like to pass the blame, and blaming their failure on the fact that they don't have plat is all too easy. It's just not the truth.

I don't understand why you pick a faling f2p attempt to give example while there are many other successful ones from which AL can learn a couple of tricks, anyway there are many ways to make a f2p. The most efficient way out of these in my opinion is making the best items in the game available to all both freemium and premium players while giving to the premium a advantage.

Lets look at the major perks of the locked system:
#1 The locked system is a decent way of making money fast and neat. It gets you addicted players that keep the game rolling. The problem is that these players, the whales, are few related to the rest of the freemium players.

#2 Another great disadvantage the lockeds bring is that each season the new best items rise in price. This will continue to happen and its natural it does.
Combine #1 and #2 and you find out while the locked system isn't the best way to run a F2P. The natural tendency of the value of the premium items, because they are in the hands of a small part of the game, tend to increase at a insane rate losing contact with the free part of the game.

So the more exclusive the premium items are, the more th game tries to spill the whales the higher the whales will make the freemium players pay. It will get to a point, if we aren't already there, that the freemium players will simply abbadon AL and move to other games.


Gold sinks won't solve this process it is a measure just too weak and late to break the natural circle of inflation. WEAK because before it takes effect and we start noticing its impact the gap between the fremium players and premium players will already be too high and most players will have already left the game. LATE because the natural process of inflation started long time ago when the game made the best items available for real cash and nothing is going to stop the future arcanes and mythics to cost higher than this season's own. What will can do is slow the rate at which they increase.

I don't see AL going anywhere whale independent this is the structure of the game but one thing the game should be doing and is not doing is giving the freemium players DECENT INSTRUMENTS to fill the gap between them and the whales, the best way is pointing on the legendary market these gears must be revalued and there are different ways.

Some i see are these:

- Granting them a Aps.
- Making them events related.
- Giving the best outstanding stats nearly the same as mythics.
- Making the best a fundamental part in crafting mythics and arcane items.

While the game does this it should also limit the monopolization of the whales. Sts can do so by making every X weeks/months a random item between the mythics available for X amount of gold and a crafting process that involves the best legendaries.

This way sts can directly interrupt any sort of monopolization and fix a ceiling price for the premium items while keeping them in range with the free part of the game and increasing the legendaries value.

[Livetokill]

Players will leave the game if they don't enjoy it. There are two ways to overcome it- make a truly engaging game(with great re-playability) or create a "whale" trap. Creating "whale" trap does bring in more money but at the cost of credibility. Here is a small part from the Gamasutra article-


Todd Harris, COO at Hi-Rez, tells me that his company's free-to-play philosophy is simple: Players will remember which games and companies are exploitative, and gradually over time, we'll see a shift away from these money-grabbers, to the games that treat the players with respect.

"The players in the stories [you've related] are likely to not play a game from that publisher or developer again," he reasons. "Our perspective is a long-term thing, thinking about the studio brand."

"I think there's cases where it financially works in the short-term for that title," he continues. "In our case, our studio brand and positioning is different, and we are particularly looking for gamers that expect a fair battlefield, and we want them to know that in a future Hi-Rez game, from past experiences, that they should get a fair battlefield and not get an exploitive feeling."

While you might guess that Hi-Rez doesn't make as much money as some of these more exploitative studios, it's notable that around 10 percent of Tribes: Ascend players choose to pay money -- a figure that is much larger than the 1, 3, and 5 percents that I've heard from the majority of other free-to-play developers. Harris reasons that this is down to trust, and players feeling like they are getting their money's worth.

"I don't have a crystal ball, but our studio thinks that there are enough players that want more of a sports-like fair game," he says. "That's the type of titles that we are developing. Whether the audience of the other type -- 'pay for status' -- whether that is growing or shrinking... you know, studios have to place their bets."

"I personally think that it's going to go down over time," he adds, "because if you look at the games that are having the most success -- League of Legends, Dota 2, as well as our own titles -- they are not perceived that way, not perceived to be pay-to-win as much. So those games seem to be having more traction."

Here is another link
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/193520

[Bigboyblue]

The way the game is currently set up has its advantages and disadvantages. If I am looking at this from an STS perspective I am thinking about how much money these locked crate poppers bring in. It is a cash cow and has an established player base that will spend an obscene amount of money to loot the latest and greatest items. People, however, complain that unless you spend tons of money you can never be in the big leagues.

I do not think it would be the best idea for STS to overhaul this system. It works for them and is allowing their company to thrive. Currently the legendary gear that is dropped from elite bosses is equal to the best mythic gear. The arcane gear is OP for sure and has no counterpart(at least the current level gear). As long as STS has an obtainable legendary counterpart to all available mythics then I really don't see a problem. If you are a non plat buyer you can still farm and sell crates to be geared in the best legendary items. Keeping at least one OP arcane item per level cap keeps this cash cow flowing. That is really all it takes to keep crates popping.

The only time that a true advantage is noticed is when the mythic gear and arcane gear available through locks is far better than the best legendary gear. While I believe there needs to be an OP arcane item available in crates it would be nice to see the best legendary gear closely rival the mythic set of the same level. This keeps the playing field fairly level while still affording an advantage to those that spend real money on this game. The game is fairly level at this point. Time will tell what this item staggering will do to this balance.

STS already sells vanities that are platinum exclusive. I just don't see this as a big enough revenue generator to keep STS going at the pace it is. Currently they are bringing new content forward at a high rate. I think that most players are very happy with this. It is this crate cash cow that allows this to happen.

Advertisement never hurts a brand. It may not be a bad idea to incorporate a higher level of social media advertising that allows players to obtain good items. These items however can not be as good as the crate gear that generates their revenue. The new events that have been announced can also incorporate some descent gear rewards for free. This hopefully keeps the free players happy without upsetting the platinum spenders.

Arcane legends can be played for free. I am currently running all pinks. I can run elites and play the game to it's fullest. You do not have to spend money to play all aspects of this game and enjoy everything it has to offer. I will never be an arcane player but I am still very satisfied with my gaming experience. I don't understand why so many people complain. My life experience has told me that there is always someone who isn't happy. There is nothing you can do to please everyone. STS has done a good job pleasing most people and still maintain its profitability.

[Rare]

Besides crates there aren't that many places where you can spend money.

Changing the model means this is going to have to change of course. I wouldn't expect to see any major change though.

[Energizeric]

Why do people keep implying that mythic and arcane items are only available to plat users? Those items are indeed available to those who farm as they come in elite golden chests which can be dropped from any elite boss. So they are not plat exclusive, they are just rare, which they are supposed to be.

One of the big problems in Pocket Legends near the end is that the game became boring for anyone who played it more than 6 months. Why? Because none of the items were very rare or hard to obtain.

During seasons 1 & 2 of Arcane Legends, it appeared we were headed down that same road... I started playing AL 2 weeks before the Dead City expansion, so I never got a chance to acquire the best gear in season 1. But within 1 month of season 2, without ever spending a single penny on plat, I had all of the best gear for my sorcerer. That's way too easy, and I was not the only player who felt that way. So some of us started complaining that we wanted to see some actual super rare gear. So that's why they introduced the mythic & arcane items. It was not only so that they could get people to spend real money, it was so that the game provided some actual challenge.

To this day I still feel challenged by the game every day. Right now my latest challenge is working towards an arcane ring. No, I won't buy it using plat and opening crates. I am going to save up and purchase one. How long will it take? Probably many months, and I probably won't have one until next season (maybe). But it is still a challenge. The day I have everything there is to have is the day I quit and find a more challenging game.

So for those of you who think this game is too hard, I guess we just have a difference of opinion. I like hard. Easy is boring.

[Zeus]

Why do people keep implying that mythic and arcane items are only available to plat users? Those items are indeed available to those who farm as they come in elite golden chests which can be dropped from any elite boss. So they are not plat exclusive, they are just rare, which they are supposed to be.

One of the big problems in Pocket Legends near the end is that the game became boring for anyone who played it more than 6 months. Why? Because none of the items were very rare or hard to obtain.

During seasons 1 & 2 of Arcane Legends, it appeared we were headed down that same road... I started playing AL 2 weeks before the Dead City expansion, so I never got a chance to acquire the best gear in season 1. But within 1 month of season 2, without ever spending a single penny on plat, I had all of the best gear for my sorcerer. That's way too easy, and I was not the only player who felt that way. So some of us started complaining that we wanted to see some actual super rare gear. So that's why they introduced the mythic & arcane items. It was not only so that they could get people to spend real money, it was so that the game provided some actual challenge.

To this day I still feel challenged by the game every day. Right now my latest challenge is working towards a mythic ring. No, I won't buy it using plat and opening crates. I am going to save up and purchase one. How long will it take? Probably many months, and I probably won't have one until next season (maybe). But it is still a challenge. The day I have everything there is to have is the day I quit and find a more challenging game.

So for those of you who think this game is too hard, I guess we just have a difference of opinion. I like hard. Easy is boring.

Arcane ring*

Just incase people think you're someone that takes many months to earn 2m.

[Rare]

Why do people keep implying that mythic and arcane items are only available to plat users? Those items are indeed available to those who farm as they come in elite golden chests which can be dropped from any elite boss. So they are not plat exclusive, they are just rare, which they are supposed to be.


That isn't what this thread is about

[Bless]

So that's why they introduced the mythic & arcane items. It was not only so that they could get people to spend real money, it was so that the game provided some actual challenge.

To this day I still feel challenged by the game every day. Right now my latest challenge is working towards a mythic ring. No, I won't buy it using plat and opening crates. I am going to save up and purchase one. How long will it take? Probably many months, and I probably won't have one until next season (maybe). But it is still a challenge. The day I have everything there is to have is the day I quit and find a more challenging game.

So for those of you who think this game is too hard, I guess we just have a difference of opinion. I like hard. Easy is boring. I see what you are saying, that the game needs challenge. But the challenge here is to only buy it with gold, the ring is not farmable like the PL dragon sets. Not everybody is a merch, there is no possible way to farm a day or two continuously for it in a dungeon and loot it. Elite dragkin chests are a joke compared to locked crates. You say it will take 3 months to buy the arcane ring, so don't you think there will be a whole new set of mythic gear by 3 months? They alone will be about 50m, so what will you spend it on the ring or the mythics? Like I said in my earlier post:


If the game is supported by (mostly) 'whales' then that is a problem because premium features and new items - realistically - are intended for them and the few pure players. An average player will not keep up with the platters. For example, if an arcane ring is released at season start, it will take players atleast a month or even 2-3 months to get 100m to buy it, after you brought it, one season later it is worth a fraction of its original price and new Overpriced arcanes are out, it is not a balanced cycle.


The annoyance in this game is that there aren't VALID ways of making BIG money, except for elites (which still cap at 2-3m at their apex) and popping locks. We cannot farm arcanes, we cannot farm mythics. It really is a joke of a money-making system, really, because the highest priced item is 100m+ and the most expensive farmable item is 3m*. I understand that locks keep this game alive. So why not make one arcane item farmable, not easily, whilst making all other mythics lootable in the crates as usual?

*Excluding opening elite golden chests, in which you can apparently loot arcanes.

[Bigboyblue]

Why do people keep implying that mythic and arcane items are only available to plat users? Those items are indeed available to those who farm as they come in elite golden chests which can be dropped from any elite boss. So they are not plat exclusive, they are just rare, which they are supposed to be.

Totally true. Everyone can afford mythics if they apply themselves for a couple of months. Not when they are brand new but after a bit of time they are very affordable(I could afford them but choose not to buy right now). Arcanes however are not. These are the items that separate pay players from your normal non spender.

I think we are losing sight of was this thread was created for. It was meant to show that there are different ways STS could go about generating revenue. The current system is completely geared towards "whales". Energizeric has shown that those who do not pop crates can still obtain great gear with hard work and time. However it is very difficult. Maybe STS could revamp their revenue methods but it seems to be working. Why fix something that isn't broken. Only they truly know if this game is sustainable based on the current revenue. If they feel it dwindling or stagnating they may make a move into a different direction. If the current situation is acceptable to them they will not change it. Business is sometimes about risk but more often than not it is about doing what has been proven to work.

[Energizeric]

I see what you are saying, that the game needs challenge. But the challenge here is to only buy it with gold, the ring is not farmable like the PL dragon sets. Not everybody is a merch, there is no possible way to farm a day or two continuously for it in a dungeon and loot it. Elite dragkin chests are a joke compared to locked crates. You say it will take 3 months to buy the arcane ring, so don't you think there will be a whole new set of mythic gear by 3 months? They alone will be about 50m, so what will you spend it on the ring or the mythics? Like I said in my earlier post:




The annoyance in this game is that there aren't VALID ways of making BIG money, except for elites (which still cap at 2-3m at their apex) and popping locks. We cannot farm arcanes, we cannot farm mythics. It really is a joke of a money-making system, really, because the highest priced item is 100m+ and the most expensive farmable item is 3m*. I understand that locks keep this game alive. So why not make one arcane item farmable, not easily, whilst making all other mythics lootable in the crates as usual?

*Excluding opening elite golden chests, in which you can apparently loot arcanes.

This subject has come up in previous threads. Sam Hayne explained that one of the reasons why PL got out of hand was because of the luck elixirs influencing the drops of the best items, such as dragon items. Remember how dragon items were BEFORE they added epic drops to Fang? People still farmed for them, but you could spend months farming there and never see a single drop. They really were that rare.

Sam explained that they did not want that same mistake to be made in AL, so instead they created chests, which you cannot affect by using luck elixirs. So the luck elixirs will help you to loot the elite golden chest, but it will not help you pull an arcane or mythic item from that chest.

But was PL really that much different? Tell me an item you could effectively farm, where you had a real chance to get one, that cost more than a million gold? I can't think of one. Yet the dragon sets were going for 20m+. The only difference there was no locked crates, so people did not feel jealous that some players could buy their way to a dragon set.

But really you could... I know you were a regular in PL, so I'm sure you remember a player named Dragnmaster/Hyasneagle. He was a buddy of mine. He played PL for less than 6 months, and was the first player I know of to have accumulated all 5 dragon sets. He basically just ran those turnstyle plat dungeons over and over using 100% luck elixir, and would sell every item he looted. He made tens of millions and purchase every item you could possibly want. Then he became bored with the game because there was nothing left for him to do, so he quit.

I think there is really no difference in that respect, it is just more out in the open in AL because of the locked crates. If you want to farm for an arcane shard, then you can. Just run those elite dungeons over and over, and open any elite golden chests that you loot. Will you get one? Possibly, but probably not. But how many people do you know in PL that looted a dragon item (before they added epics to the drop table)? Very few were so lucky.

IMO without these super rare items, the game becomes very boring. As for the inflation, that can be easily solved with some gold sinks, or lowering the amount of gold in locked crates. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand economics. If you control the amount of gold in the game, then you control prices. There is only so much gold to go around. Yes, you will always have your super rich players. But that in itself does not create inflation. What makes these items like Arcane rings so expensive is that there are not just a few of these rich players, but tons of them. These items only stay at insanely high prices as long as there are players who still want to buy them who can afford those prices. Lower the total gold in the game, and you limit how many of these rich players can exist. Yes, the newest arcane item will always be very pricey, but it will drop in price sooner rather than later if we control inflation.

[Hiosahaf]

What happened to my poor thread.. :dejection:

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[Feljun Tordesillas Siocon]

hiosahaf..!!!

^_^ remember me?hehe..btw can i ask u somethin?what time will the server are going up?u have to patch again but i didnt got to the game server..

[Rare]

What happened to my poor thread.. :dejection:

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Agendas

[falmear]

The crate area is like the Vegas area in AL. Full of gambling. If you've read the article (which I recommend you do), you'd know what that results into. Plus, popping crates is just a shortcut (like Zylx pointed out again) to the top. Envisioning a system where the best gear is earned only via farming is not bad actually. If Team Fortress 2 can crasg PayPal with just cash hats, I believe AL can do it, too. Provided we have the needed player base. The marketing strategy is something that needs a bit of focus on actually to achieve this.


I read both articles, I think the problem is understanding what people are willing to pay for. I don't know the motivation of others but I have no interest in exclusive vanities. The only thing that keeps me interested is the pursuit of better gear. So overall I don't really care what I look like, I only care about my stats. I farm & merch something so I can convert it to gold and repeat until I earn enough gold to get what I want. When talking pure vanity nothing attracts more attention then having the best equipment in the game, or very high stats. So this is where crates fit into the picture because its one path to the best gear with the least amount of work but the most amount of real life money. I don't know all of the history of prior Legends games since I only have played AL but it would seem like they have figured out what people are willing to spend their money on. And the more they add to crates, the more money people spend. I have heard from people who have spent 10k to 20k plat to try to get a certain item.

I would say the biggest 2 drivers for spending money are having the best gear and being the first to have the best gear. In any successful business you need to figure out what people want before they know they want it, and then sell it to them.

If anyone wants to know about cash hats in TF2, you can read this:

http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Unusual

But I agree with you crates are basically gambling for virtual loot. This is why I don't open them because I think if you actually play the game there are better ways to spend your plat and less of it.

[Hiosahaf]

Oh I love multi-quotes!

~



I think we are losing sight of was this thread was created for. It was meant to show that there are different ways STS could go about generating revenue. The current system is completely geared towards "whales". Energizeric has shown that those who do not pop crates can still obtain great gear with hard work and time. However it is very difficult. Maybe STS could revamp their revenue methods but it seems to be working. Why fix something that isn't broken. Only they truly know if this game is sustainable based on the current revenue. If they feel it dwindling or stagnating they may make a move into a different direction. If the current situation is acceptable to them they will not change it. Business is sometimes about risk but more often than not it is about doing what has been proven to work.

Thresd was created to provide for a better business model compared to the current one. AL is a game which is, literally, slave to crate poppers.

Now you can't deny that.


This subject has come up in previous threads. Sam Hayne explained that one of the reasons why PL got out of hand was because of the luck elixirs influencing the drops of the best items, such as dragon items. Remember how dragon items were BEFORE they added epic drops to Fang? People still farmed for them, but you could spend months farming there and never see a single drop. They really were that rare.

Sam explained that they did not want that same mistake to be made in AL, so instead they created chests, which you cannot affect by using luck elixirs. So the luck elixirs will help you to loot the elite golden chest, but it will not help you pull an arcane or mythic item from that chest.

But was PL really that much different? Tell me an item you could effectively farm, where you had a real chance to get one, that cost more than a million gold? I can't think of one. Yet the dragon sets were going for 20m+. The only difference there was no locked crates, so people did not feel jealous that some players could buy their way to a dragon set.

But really you could... I know you were a regular in PL, so I'm sure you remember a player named Dragnmaster/Hyasneagle. He was a buddy of mine. He played PL for less than 6 months, and was the first player I know of to have accumulated all 5 dragon sets. He basically just ran those turnstyle plat dungeons over and over using 100% luck elixir, and would sell every item he looted. He made tens of millions and purchase every item you could possibly want. Then he became bored with the game because there was nothing left for him to do, so he quit.

I think there is really no difference in that respect, it is just more out in the open in AL because of the locked crates. If you want to farm for an arcane shard, then you can. Just run those elite dungeons over and over, and open any elite golden chests that you loot. Will you get one? Possibly, but probably not. But how many people do you know in PL that looted a dragon item (before they added epics to the drop table)? Very few were so lucky.

IMO without these super rare items, the game becomes very boring. As for the inflation, that can be easily solved with some gold sinks, or lowering the amount of gold in locked crates. Anyone who says otherwise does not understand economics. If you control the amount of gold in the game, then you control prices. There is only so much gold to go around. Yes, you will always have your super rich players. But that in itself does not create inflation. What makes these items like Arcane rings so expensive is that there are not just a few of these rich players, but tons of them. These items only stay at insanely high prices as long as there are players who still want to buy them who can afford those prices. Lower the total gold in the game, and you limit how many of these rich players can exist. Yes, the newest arcane item will always be very pricey, but it will drop in price sooner rather than later if we control inflation.


Why do people keep implying that mythic and arcane items are only available to plat users? Those items are indeed available to those who farm as they come in elite golden chests which can be dropped from any elite boss. So they are not plat exclusive, they are just rare, which they are supposed to be.

One of the big problems in Pocket Legends near the end is that the game became boring for anyone who played it more than 6 months. Why? Because none of the items were very rare or hard to obtain.

During seasons 1 & 2 of Arcane Legends, it appeared we were headed down that same road... I started playing AL 2 weeks before the Dead City expansion, so I never got a chance to acquire the best gear in season 1. But within 1 month of season 2, without ever spending a single penny on plat, I had all of the best gear for my sorcerer. That's way too easy, and I was not the only player who felt that way. So some of us started complaining that we wanted to see some actual super rare gear. So that's why they introduced the mythic & arcane items. It was not only so that they could get people to spend real money, it was so that the game provided some actual challenge.

To this day I still feel challenged by the game every day. Right now my latest challenge is working towards an arcane ring. No, I won't buy it using plat and opening crates. I am going to save up and purchase one. How long will it take? Probably many months, and I probably won't have one until next season (maybe). But it is still a challenge. The day I have everything there is to have is the day I quit and find a more challenging game.

So for those of you who think this game is too hard, I guess we just have a difference of opinion. I like hard. Easy is boring.

To this^

I give:


Very interesting thoughts. When one thinks about it, platinum isn't an actual boost to prosperity, but more actually a "direct and only road" as it quickly discourages the new people by inducing the belief that you would need to constantly fuel money into the game to keep up with those "whales". Quite a few players who work their butts off farming in the game for months would be easily shunned by the "whales" who could get everything within a matter of hours. It's discouraging the base growth, especially this late in the game's development, because people see all the old players with great equips, and assume that since this is a p2w game, they will never be as good as those players.

This is a game. It's supposed to be competitive. When a player sees another player far superior than they are, they become jealous and want their items at that moment in time. Hence why we have beggars. When that player learns that the top players are "whales", they will either a) buy platinum to try to keep up, or b) quit all hopes of ever reaching their level, and possibly play a different game. They'll most often choose the latter.

In order for this to be fixed, STS would need to remove the exclusivity of the platinum and turn platinum into more of a shortcut to everything. Make locked crates opennable with gold and plat, but decrease the chances even more of looting the desirables. If we remove the exclusivity of the plat, players wont be discouraged as much, especially those unable to buy platinum.

Energize, there is way lot more to the world of gaming than PL.

There are plenty more games which have incorporated the OP business model.

Hope you read the links :) that's all I have to say!

~

Thanks for keeping this civil guys! It's not a PvP thread after all ;)

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[Hiosahaf]

hiosahaf..!!!

^_^ remember me?hehe..btw can i ask u somethin?what time will the server are going up?u have to patch again but i didnt got to the game server..

I have no clue.m sorry bro :( maybe the Tech n Bug area can help you :)

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[Bless]

STS is doing great to balance it, you really can't blame them, it really is hard to manage and balance a game like this (where there is a huge gap between the economic classes) without tipping the scale to one end.

I would suggest this though: New itemisation right? Make a couple of new mythics, (maybe the weapons or armor/helm?) farmable in elite dungeons with a rare drop and the other few mythics/arcanes drop in locks. Even though it is a fun challenge we, as normal players - who have not got over 15m even - don't want to have to keep buying overpriced mythics and arcanes to compete with the platters, that is just what I think.

[Hiosahaf]

STS is doing great to balance it, you really can't blame them, it really is hard to manage and balance a game like this (where there is a huge gap between the economic classes) without tipping the scale to one end.

I would suggest this though: New itemisation right? Make a couple of new mythics, (maybe the weapons or armor/helm?) farmable in elite dungeons with a rare drop and the other few mythics/arcanes drop in locks.

Agreed. They learnt a LOT from Shuyal expansion and put it all in Tendirin.

This thread is just an analysis that the crates are a Platinum carrot for people and the revenues are majorly dependent on crates. Just an alternative I suggested..

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[Zeus]

Oh I love multi-quotes!

~



Thresd was created to provide for a better business model compared to the current one. AL is a game which is, literally, slave to crate poppers.

Now you can't deny that.





To this^

I give:



Energize, there is way lot more to the world of gaming than PL.

There are plenty more games which have incorporated the OP business model.

Hope you read the links :) that's all I have to say!

~

Thanks for keeping this civil guys! It's not a PvP thread after all ;)

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There are games who have incorporated your model, but they have something that AL, PL, SL, and DL do not have: a very large player base. So, as of right now, I believe STG thinks this business plan is working just fine.

If they felt the need to change things, believe me, they would.


Actually, in PL, they went nearly completely free to play at one time as a business approach and it nearly drove them broke.






Perhaps in the future, when AL has the popularity this business plan requires, this will work. If we try to implement it now though, it will crash and burn.

[gumball3000]

Really nice read, one thanks is not enaugh. I just wish some of this reacheas the ears of the developers.

[Hiosahaf]

There are games who have incorporated your model, but they have something that AL, PL, SL, and DL do not have: a very large player base. So, as of right now, I believe STG thinks this business plan is working just fine.

If they felt the need to change things, believe me, they would.


Actually, in PL, they went nearly completely free to play at one time as a business approach and it nearly drove them broke.






Perhaps in the future, when AL has the popularity this business plan requires, this will work. If we try to implement it now though, it will crash and burn.

Yes bhai, I get your viewpoint. If you've read earlier posts, you'd know that I'm talking of a long-term change in the overall approach towards the whole system. Although, by that time (If STS is working well with publicity and getting in more people AND keeping the bracket interested as shown in G's video), the damage would have been done.

The majority of the new players who would join then would be pretty intimidated by the prices. Platinum has now become a necessity to become max-geared toon (which everyone strives for, the new ones). I'm just thinking from the perspective of a new player who'll join AL. Each step has to be thought priorly before STS makes one. After a sufficient player-base, maybe they can make-do with lockeds for good!

There are just so many great things out there, all that is needed for STS is that that it needs to grow like a biggie :)

[Energizeric]

As some of you may recall, last year I made this suggestion:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?114281-New-quot-Shadow-Quest-quot

While I think the locked crate model is fine, I do think there should be some DIFFERENT mythic (and possibly even arcane) items that should be able to be farmed or earned from very difficult quests. It seems that STS has taken some ideas from my suggestion in the Dragkin Teeth (and Arcane Ring). I think we have not seen the last of the Dragkin Teeth by a long shot, and would not be surprised if we see some much better gear available from farming Teeth in the future.

[Hiosahaf]

Really nice read, one thanks is not enaugh. I just wish some of this reacheas the ears of the developers.

I hope the same :) Thanks for your support! Really, means a lot. There has been a beautiful discussion in this whole thread!

[Hiosahaf]

As some of you may recall, last year I made this suggestion:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?114281-New-quot-Shadow-Quest-quot

While I think the locked crate model is fine, I do think there should be some DIFFERENT mythic (and possibly even arcane) items that should be able to be farmed or earned from very difficult quests. It seems that STS has taken some ideas from my suggestion in the Dragkin Teeth (and Arcane Ring). I think we have not seen the last of the Dragkin Teeth by a long shot, and would not be surprised if we see some much better gear available from farming Teeth in the future.

Tindirin expansion was perfect in many ways. My only grouch came with the update later on which made the Dragonite bar available. Now they Whales can just throw in some money and become OP instead of actually going through the whole game process with older gear. You want OP gear, work for it- it's an expensive item.

Btw, I forgot to quote a part from your post..

"If you control the amount of gold in the game, then you control prices. There is only so much gold to go around. "

There is literally INFINITE amount of gold in the game actually. The whales control how much gold there will be in circulation (plat to gold conversion). So technically, the number is tending to infinity. There is only so much Gold can do actually. The root cause is Platinum.

Now we need Platinum because STS is not a charity thingy. Change IS a good thing and doing away with lockeds, however flawed they may be not for some, is a good thing. Making all the gear being available via farming (Yes there are games out there which have implemented this.) and not reserving the best part with lockeds has proven to be a huge success mantra for companies. Of course, you need a large player-base for that.

[Energizeric]

Btw, I forgot to quote a part from your post..

"If you control the amount of gold in the game, then you control prices. There is only so much gold to go around. "

There is literally INFINITE amount of gold in the game actually. The whales control how much gold there will be in circulation (plat to gold conversion). So technically, the number is tending to infinity. There is only so much Gold can do actually. The root cause is Platinum.

STS has not increased the plat to gold conversion rate since AL was launched. So as we have had inflation, converting plat to gold has become less of a good deal over time. In season 1 when the best items were less than 1m gold, you could gear up your character with the best gear for $100 worth of plat. Now you would need to spend many thousands of dollars, and few players are willing to do that. Instead most do the locked crates. So I really don't think plat to gold conversion is happening in any large amount. Most of the gold being added to the game is due to the change made to locked crates last summer. Prior to that there was no gold included in the crates. We all suggested this change last summer because the economy was actually suffering from too little gold then. But now we have gone too far the other way. What we need is either another adjustment to locked crates or a gold sink of some sort that affects mostly rich players.

Someone suggested perhaps having a mythic item that comes exclusively from an in-game NPC at a high price (a few million gold perhaps). I think that would be a wonderful idea and would help balance the large influx of gold from locked crates.

Just to understand the amount of gold that is being added to the gold supply from locked crates, all you have to do is go farm and tell me how long it takes to accumulate 6k in gold. I'm not talking about selling items you get as drops, I'm talking about smashing barrels and opening chests to get gold. It will take hours to get 6k gold, but someone opening a locked crate gets that in 2 seconds. So that is the cause of the inflation. Prior to this change made last summer you actually had not enough gold in the game.

[Rare]

I disagree. There was plenty of gold. Just everyone was saving millions upon millions for mythic/arcane items. There was always plenty of gold.

Artificially injecting gold into the economy was a bad solution from the start. In fact, the suggestion I made is pretty much what Hio is talking about. Making the game more fun for people to play and making them WANT to play even if they don't attain the pinnacle of gear or status. Rather than constantly having a revolving player base with new players that have 0 gold.

[Newcomx]

I already see many of my friend in game offline.... I wonder when will be AL doomsday, because players are decreasing....

[Wutzgood]

Lots of good ideas here but I don't see them changing the locked crates. Its the main source of revenue for them and many farmers in game who sell them.

The one thing I don't agree with at all is that platinum is necessary to have a maxed gear toon. A few months of farming can get you full mythic without spending a single platinum. I know alot of people who have done it myself included. Any plat I purchased went to plat exclusive pets or vanities. I've maybe opened 10 locked in the last year of playing. All my gold came from farming locked crates and selling them to those gamblers.

Arcane stuff may be tough to get without spending plat but its supposed to be. It can still be done just gonna take longer. Any player can be full mythic if they put in some work to get it. If they want it without any work tho like alot of players do they have to spend platinum to speed it up.

[Hiosahaf]

I disagree. There was plenty of gold. Just everyone was saving millions upon millions for mythic/arcane items. There was always plenty of gold.

Artificially injecting gold into the economy was a bad solution from the start. In fact, the suggestion I made is pretty much what Hio is talking about. Making the game more fun for people to play and making them WANT to play even if they don't attain the pinnacle of gear or status. Rather than constantly having a revolving player base with new players that have 0 gold.

The most important thing I saw was that your changed your name :O :O !!

And yes, Aed spoke for me.. We are now seeing so much gold because loads of people knew something extravagant and extraordinary was coming this season. Now we are seeing the money overflowing and there is chaos.


Lots of good ideas here but I don't see them changing the locked crates. Its the main source of revenue for them and many farmers in game who sell them.

The one thing I don't agree with at all is that platinum is necessary to have a maxed gear toon. A few months of farming can get you full mythic without spending a single platinum. I know alot of people who have done it myself included. Any plat I purchased went to plat exclusive pets or vanities. I've maybe opened 10 locked in the last year of playing. All my gold came from farming locked crates and selling them to those gamblers.

Arcane stuff may be tough to get without spending plat but its supposed to be. It can still be done just gonna take longer. Any player can be full mythic if they put in some work to get it. If they want it without any work tho like alot of players do they have to spend platinum to speed it up.

Arcane can be done too. There's this player Eddynos in our guild. He owns a Kershal and is a full mythic sorc without having spent plat. Just farming. The issue what you're talking about is a completely different issue. My thread was not based on that. Yes it does lead to this topic eventually.

The question which seems to arise here at the bottomline is:
Why change a good enough business model?

Like I've said before, AL has a lot of potential if it's introduced to a bigger playerbase. Whag will happen aftet 2 or 3 years is that that when new people will join, they will all to be intimidated by the massive amount of hardwork that will take to reach that level.

Revamping the model to a place where it takes pure skill and hardwork instead of locked crates (yes, whales will have to move their bums to be OP) will be in favour of the majority. Garnering a bigger audience instead of depending on few whales is not what a long-term investment should be. Yes the crate model will work on and on, but (no offense devs), it may prove fatal later on.

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[Aliliam]

nice, specially like the fb ads part...that's how candy crush and farmville got so massive


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[Hiosahaf]

nice, specially like the fb ads part...that's how candy crush and farmville got so massive


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Thanks! I appreciate the feedback.. now, if only a dev would see this..

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[Hiosahaf]

~

So we saw the latest energy bars thing. You get three little money drain... er energy balls I mean. A portal spawns from mobs and you can enter it as long as you have the green ball present.

Time to regen the money.. er energy ball? 8 hours! Of course you can speed up using plat!

Is this a good idea? Nopity nope. Remember those games like "Injustice: Gods among us" where there is a timer? Or the Real steel game? Yup! Pay through the timer or put down your device and do something else. I deleted all of those games as my S4 can't handle it. Too laggy device.

So I use my laptop to play. And I have no free offers except the ones which of course don't pay and which have low input (country issues). So that means that if I play a lot, and I get say 20 portals, I can enter only 3 of em! How amazing! But the other people- nope they can run 20/20 with it!

I agree that plat spenders should have power and they already do. This is just a money making slot machine type idea to get people to use plat and widen the gap between the super rich and the super poor.

Thanks for reading and sorry for bumping my own thread. But I didn't want to create a new rant thread (the idea was tempting though, very).

Hio the poor who can't spend plats.

Bump. Added. 2nd post on first page. Sorry for the necro bump, but this idea seems like a big nuh uh- farmers shouldn't enter portals more than thrice!

[Doobiez]

Nice explanation on the subject 👍

[Fidalex]

Energy balls??? O.o
Portals?
What are you talking about?

[Azemen]

Energy balls??? O.o
Portals?
What are you talking about?

Watch FaceTime With Spscetime

[Fidalex]

I supposed it was there, but i'am lazy 😁