Regarding Elite Dungeons...

[Carapace]

Hello everyone! We have some thoughts about Elite dungeons and their accessibility, and so I'm posing the question to the community. Thanks for taking some time to read and share your thoughts!

Regarding Elite Dungeons
Currently Elite dungeons are very rigid in that every run is a timed run. Due to the nature of a timed run being a potential leader board run, additional players are locked out from joining a timed Elite run once the timer has begun. Typically there is frustration associated with our more casual players that would very much like to defeat the content, and not be at the mercy of latency or players leaving mid run. This results in the run being unfruitful and leaves players with an unfavorable experience. Internally we have discussed two possible means of solving this problem, and so I am going to take a moment to convey these options to the community in such a way that we can make a more educated move in regards to potential implementations to address this issue.

Before getting into specifics, the cornerstone of these ideas is the idea of “Casual” Elite maps. This would be the exact same content as the normal Elite runs, only without the timer component and no leader board implications. This means that we can create Elite maps where players can join, leave, and progress further with multiple people interchangeably in order to experience the content free from the restrictions of the timed runs. Invite your friends, invite your guild mates, or replace a party member at any time during the run!

First solution
The first solution is our ideal solution. It creates an up front, easy to understand user experience that results in the best of both worlds. There will be a preference/option in the game options that allows the player to ENABLE or DISABLE Casual Elite mode, and as a result the game will funnel players trying to do timed runs into their respective dungeons, and casual players into theirs. The two would never cross paths, meaning a timed runner would never end up in a timeless map, and vice versa.

The problem here is that it will take quite a bit of tech time to complete, and as a result would be pushed out to a much further potential release date. We do however believe this is the correct way to handle this from a usability and design perspective.


Second Solution
The secondary solution is a bit more circumstantial. Players will all still start an Elite zone as a timed run, however once a player leaves of their own free will, or a player is disconnected longer than a specified amount of time the zone becomes an open run. The timer will go away, and other players will be allowed to join in from invites and others coming in to Elite games from the world map.

Things to consider here is that the pool of players will remain mixed. If player A and his team are doing a timed run and a teammate times out, it’s no longer a timed run. Player B then tries to join an Elite zone to do a timed run, but now instead joins this run in progress where he cannot do a timed instance. It really has a tendency to frustrate players interested in doing timed runs more than players who just want to be able to complete a zone and invite their friends after the fact. We feel we can justify this under the assumption that serious teams running elite maps have a full team that they are trying to run with.

There are some edge cases naturally – Players running Elite maps solo, teams of two or three, etc. but overall this is something that could be implemented fairly quickly by comparison to the original (and proper) solution.

We’re looking for community thoughts on this before discussing and getting plans moving.

Thanks everyone!
Carapace

[Foebegone]

Option 2 sounds good to me, less messing with settings within a group and although I have no aspiration to be on the ldr board I do like to know the time. Any serious run is in a party anyway so I don't think this will annoy leader board attempts as no one does those in pug's

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[warriorromio]

Pls ..
U guys dont need to do any thing just one thing need change..
Id u r in a party amd hot disconnected...
Then u can join back...
Once the timer is start u can not change players..
Just the player hot disconnected or...
Any player leave for some reason then only he can join back...

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[warriorromio]

Sorry for my bad eng :))

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[GoodSyntax]

Would /partyi 000 still force solo runs? As many know, I enjoy doing solo runs in all elite maps, so losing this component would actually impact me more than most.

Another issue I see is loot farming. Part of what keeps the loot distribution low is this natural restriction of players in a map, and thus boss drops. If players could randomly join with maps 75% complete (aka - all the tough pulls are finished), then it would artificially inflate the number of drops occurring, which could have a negative impact on the economy.

Would it be possible for 3 map levels - Normal maps (like what they are now), Hard maps (less than Elite, but more challenging than Normal), and Elite? Obviously, this would mean coming up with appropriate drops for these "Hard" scaled maps, something better than Legendary, but not as good as the Elite Legendaries.

I think a mid-tier level of map would work out nicely, because there is a considerable population that aren't challenged by the Normal maps, but some of the Elite maps are too difficult, or they can't find suitable parties. In these cases, they can sharpen their skills in "Hard" maps, and hopefully along the way, find friends who are ready to take that next step. To be honest, I can only see value in "Hard" maps for Nordr and up, since I feel that Kraken Elite maps are what I would consider suitable for a "Hard" setting. Pretty much everything that scales above Cap - 10 could have a "Hard" variant.

Eventually, this could roll into the staggered release plan that you have, since, as new gear is pushed out into the new Elites, the previous stagger could drop to these "Hard" maps. This would keep the current Elite Legendaries exclusive, but could eventually be farmed for mainstream players who can't afford millions on a top end Magma set.

[Carapace]

Would /partyi 000 still force solo runs? As many know, I enjoy doing solo runs in all elite maps, so losing this component would actually impact me more than most.

Another issue I see is loot farming. Part of what keeps the loot distribution low is this natural restriction of players in a map, and thus boss drops. If players could randomly join with maps 75% complete (aka - all the tough pulls are finished), then it would artificially inflate the number of drops occurring, which could have a negative impact on the economy.

Would it be possible for 3 map levels - Normal maps (like what they are now), Hard maps (less than Elite, but more challenging than Normal), and Elite? Obviously, this would mean coming up with appropriate drops for these "Hard" scaled maps, something better than Legendary, but not as good as the Elite Legendaries.

I think a mid-tier level of map would work out nicely, because there is a considerable population that aren't challenged by the Normal maps, but some of the Elite maps are too difficult, or they can't find suitable parties. In these cases, they can sharpen their skills in "Hard" maps, and hopefully along the way, find friends who are ready to take that next step. To be honest, I can only see value in "Hard" maps for Nordr and up, since I feel that Kraken Elite maps are what I would consider suitable for a "Hard" setting. Pretty much everything that scales above Cap - 10 could have a "Hard" variant.

Eventually, this could roll into the staggered release plan that you have, since, as new gear is pushed out into the new Elites, the previous stagger could drop to these "Hard" maps. This would keep the current Elite Legendaries exclusive, but could eventually be farmed for mainstream players who can't afford millions on a top end Magma set.

I believe /party 000 would still work yes, however the point you make about loot is also relevant. The amount of potential loot coming in would certainly be more than now, but would it be enough to offset the current loot distribution if a casual team takes an hour to complete an elite map? It's hard to say, but certainly a valid point, especially with the availability of luck for gold now through the consignment shop.

I do like your idea of a Hard mode, I will have to talk internally with some people to see if it's a viable task as the design overhead of making new items, monsters, and balancing certainly has its considerations. There is also the maintenance and upkeep with following expansions and the like to consider as well.

Thanks for the input so far, I have no doubt there will be some interesting ideas that come from the community on this.

[jlmunoz]

Only if you can invite into the map... don't want people to join freely to kill boss after you have clear the mob... too opportunistic to my taste...

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[GoodSyntax]

I believe /party 000 would still work yes, however the point you make about loot is also relevant. The amount of potential loot coming in would certainly be more than now, but would it be enough to offset the current loot distribution if a casual team takes an hour to complete an elite map? It's hard to say, but certainly a valid point, especially with the availability of luck for gold now through the consignment shop.

I do like your idea of a Hard mode, I will have to talk internally with some people to see if it's a viable task as the design overhead of making new items, monsters, and balancing certainly has its considerations. There is also the maintenance and upkeep with following expansions and the like to consider as well.

Thanks for the input so far, I have no doubt there will be some interesting ideas that come from the community on this.

Basically, I would limit the "Hard" mode to current and previous two seasons. You could even limit it to current season to save on design overhead, yet still keep your staggered release approach viable.

For whatever reason, I find Nordr elites much more difficult than Shuyal elites - which is the only reason why I suggested previous two seasons.

I don't think new items, monsters, etc, is necessary, just scale the monsters. Also, you could only introduce the worst of the Elite Legendaries into these Hard maps...such as xxx Of Grace (for Warriors), or xxx of Fatality (for Rogues), etc. That could also reduce design time effort.

[octavos]

Im throwing my 2 pesos in...I would play more "casual elites" if deaths were turned off since people do die alot anyway in elites...just having that many deaths in your stats..makes me want to NOT try elites. I don't try elites because of my OCD, and having tons of deaths just doesn't seem so appealing to me. since gold and pvp are not an issue for me, I'm as casual as it gets XD

like the 1st and correct solution
-Casual..no timer and no deaths and anyone can join (love it really :)) (because they do cause many deaths anyway)
maybe throw in some drop-able potions and mana potions to help people in this "Casual Mode"

-Regular.. since this is more competitive (everything the same) including deaths listed.

[Foebegone]

Not allowing people to join elite maps is not a fair barrier, I have friends that have bad lag spikes and elites are pretty much unplayable for them as is. The idea that they should have to stick with second class loot is wrong in my opinion and very much suits players like myself who have no connection issues. The excess loot that you fear flooding that market is based on failed runs now completing? I feel that the failing runs that are due to a lag spike on a mobile phone game is kinda harsh. if the reason for the lock is just the leader boards then it has no place being there, if it is there to stop loot to people with bad connection then its working as intended. Will this allow some people to zerge elite maps? Maybe but they will be in the minority I would think.

I presume it would work like any other map in regard to /partyi 0 and party rules in general. So no problems there.

Sorry this is appallingly written, its late and I'm tired.

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[Nitexx]

I like option 2. Have the timed run now fall down to a non-timed run. However, that being said, and I feel this way about normal runs too, I don't think people should be able to randomly join. If this were the case, I would like to have only say guild mates be able to join, not random people coming in to partial groups that almost have a boss killed only to sit on the sidelines and collect loot.

[Bullox]

I prefer the first Solution....i dont think that will ruin the Economy, because Elites are still hard to play and not all wants to play them.

[alexdroog]

I vote for both.
Yesterday a guildie needed alpha wolf ap and got dc when alpha was half down.

[Pandamoni]

How about allowing for us to add a new party member if a current member drops out. This will keep from randoms joining, not fighting and just standing around for the look since we do not have a boot option.

I see it something like this:

I form a party, we start a map with the timer and a friend drops out. When said friend drops out due to disconnect, the timer keeps going but if our friend reconnects and rejoins then the timer stops and we go into nontimed mode. If our friend never makes it back and we stay a 3 man team, then the timer keeps going. If we decide to invite a new friend to the party, when that new friend joins our timer stops.

I would really be upset if I was running with a group, a friend disconnected, this opened the map up to some random to join our run as if it's a pug (that's how I'm reading the second option, correct me if I'm wrong) who has the potential to just stand there and wait for us to kill boss for the loot without us being able to get rid of him/her.

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm at the end of a rough day.

[faychen]

I like option 2. After the time is down, added player can be from world map and party invite so the player who dc and rejoin via invitation too. There will be a case that a player join from world map while we are going to invite our friend, I think we can simply kindly request that player to leave map.


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[GoodSyntax]

Not allowing people to join elite maps is not a fair barrier, I have friends that have bad lag spikes and elites are pretty much unplayable for them as is. The idea that they should have to stick with second class loot is wrong in my opinion and very much suits players like myself who have no connection issues. The excess loot that you fear flooding that market is based on failed runs now completing? I feel that the failing runs that are due to a lag spike on a mobile phone game is kinda harsh. if the reason for the lock is just the leader boards then it has no place being there, if it is there to stop loot to people with bad connection then its working as intended. Will this allow some people to zerge elite maps? Maybe but they will be in the minority I would think.

I presume it would work like any other map in regard to /partyi 0 and party rules in general. So no problems there.

Sorry this is appallingly written, its late and I'm tired.

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Not so much the failed runs completing, but rather solo or duo parties saying in /g "Hey, at boss...join!", so 1 or 2 drops suddenly become 4 drops - a 100% increase! That is my fear for the economy. Look at what happened with Shuyal last season. Since everyone was so well geared with upgraded Mythics, elites were incredibly easy. Imagine getting Magmatic Blades of Brutality, or Magmatic Plate of Will and realizing that they might be worth 30 or 40k in auction. That is what I worry about most.

[Yakiniku]

Honestly, Solution 1 is great. It addresses most the issues brought up regarding elites and partying up. It sastifies the hardcore time runners, and gives a free option to the casual runners.

Solution 2 is ok, but it does have its flaws. Like others have pointed out, randoms might just join in and wait for the boss to pop before even bothering to move from spawn. That's going to suck.

Inviting people to join runs that are in-progress is a nice idea, but the players already in the instance need to be locked in until they zone to a town. Otherwise, if you could zone into another elite instance on the fly, there could be some boss sharing going on.

[GoodSyntax]

If anything, I would say if a member drops out, then the map becomes an invite only run - not an opportunity for lazy PUGgers to join in just for the boss kill. This would especially drive me nuts on long maps like Rendtail, where it takes a long time to get to the boss, and just as long to kill him - the perfect opportunity for a random to just waltz in after he/she sees that all the eggs have hatched and you are in kill the boss mode.

[aarrgggggg]

Option 1 sounds the best to me. People will finally be able to run elites with pug partys and finish the map. Which is why u carapace even said it was the "ideal" fix.
Option 2 sounds like it will cause confusion and problems

Carapace you already know the right answer,it means more work for you guys but is the right solution.

[Oonova]

Not so much the failed runs completing, but rather solo or duo parties saying in /g "Hey, at boss...join!", so 1 or 2 drops suddenly become 4 drops - a 100% increase! That is my fear for the economy. Look at what happened with Shuyal last season. Since everyone was so well geared with upgraded Mythics, elites were incredibly easy. Imagine getting Magmatic Blades of Brutality, or Magmatic Plate of Will and realizing that they might be worth 30 or 40k in auction. That is what I worry about most.

I agree. I know how annoying it is to be DC in the middle of elites. However, I would rather deal with that then see the market flooded with more gear driving the prices down. Anyone who doesn't live off opening locks for their main source of gold should be concerned about this too. Thank you carapace for posting this and allowing us to voice our opinions!

[falmear]

I would rather see option #1. I have some concerns about how option #2 works. If someone DCs they don't get booted from the party right away. So what happens, do you have to remove them manually from the party or once they leave does it open up? The downside of #2 is that the party of 3 can't finish and set a record. I know this is kind of silly but it does happen. One time 3 of us set a rec without the 4th because the 4th left the map at the boss. Then we spent the next 1-2 hours trying to break our own rec. Generally speaking we don't try to set the rec when someone disconnects but it does happen occasionally. I am fine with options 1 or 2, I am mostly concerned about the usability and potential edge cases that arise from option 2. Because we already have problems with the party system locking maps for various reasons.

[twoxc]

I prefer OPTION #1. Just because....most elite timed run are attempted with preselected players. OPTION #2 will lead to seeing people coming and going and having someone not well equipped for the run and also may have bad intention of messing other team up. Further more even with a party of 4 in elite and someone disconnect midway or at boss. It is easier to clear map with 3 rather then having someone under gear joined and possibly don't know what to do.

but on a side note. Option #2 is great for casual players. This also will allow the non and fully geared casual players to help out one another easier. Which will improve the game play and enjoyment for all. The poor/rich and the strong/weak.

[jlmunoz]

I like option 2. After the time is down, added player can be from world map and party invite so the player who dc and rejoin via invitation too. There will be a case that a player join from world map while we are going to invite our friend, I think we can simply kindly request that player to leave map.


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Lol.. I'm sorry but that would be as good as asking lower level players to leave the arena if they keep dying... no matter how nicely you ask they just laugh at you...

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[Lubricator]

hi,

first solution sounds great but...

you only talk about random elites. i always form a party with guild members/friends to make sure to have the players i need (only 1 tank etc.). the option is great to set a preference for random elites but i should still be able to join an elite party regardless of my prefered setting.

so when creating a party, the setting of the party leader should count for all party members.

maybe you could also mix up the solutions here:

if the run started as timed run because the leader's setting said so, it could still be cancelled if someone is leaving the party or got dc. i wouldnt do that automatically because maybe the dc happens at the boss and the remaining 3 want to finish the run.

so why not providing a new "stop timer" button for the party leader? like the "create party" button?

[Foebegone]

Not so much the failed runs completing, but rather solo or duo parties saying in /g "Hey, at boss...join!", so 1 or 2 drops suddenly become 4 drops - a 100% increase! That is my fear for the economy. Look at what happened with Shuyal last season. Since everyone was so well geared with upgraded Mythics, elites were incredibly easy. Imagine getting Magmatic Blades of Brutality, or Magmatic Plate of Will and realizing that they might be worth 30 or 40k in auction. That is what I worry about most.

That's not a hundred percent increase globally . only on the solo runs and baring the easy maps any decent loot comes from maps that only top players can solo which is a small percentage of the player base.

Call me a cynic but it seems that because it will affect your income, you want an unfair system kept in place. I don't know if its possible but just strip the loot table for people that enter after the start, excluding ppl that DC, if they were there at the start they have chance at loot.

OK to people that fear randoms in option 2 it will work like a normal map, if u have a party it is YOUR instance, if someone drops out randoms can't jump in just like normal maps you need to invite them to party

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[tearacan]

As much as i hate to lag out and miss out, none of the above. It's a timed run like hauntlet and tombs, your either in or your out. Seems easy enough, no need to make it complicated or easier for lazy people.

[firechandra]

I'm sorry but I don't like neither option 1 neither option 2 this time, this would make the price of many elite items drop to very low amount (because any player with an elisir with that option could join at the end of an elite run only to drop and in 30 mins of elisir they could drop from many elite boss if they have friends that invite them) and the difference between mythic items and others in price will be a lot more remarkable causing many farmers to be unable to buy mythics and probably many will think also to leave the game. For this reason it seems more fair in my opinion if you'll allow to join only players without luck elisir this way they will be able to join at the end of an elite run only each 30 min and there won't be a lot more legendary items dropped than now. Another thing I think it's right is the initial number of players to be the max number allowed in that run. If elite map is beginned solo, that player can't invite others at the end, if player A,B and C begin a map but C leave at mid run for any reason, A or B (the leader) will be able to invite D if he/she wants, but never D and E increasing players number from 3 to 4.

[Anarchial]

Both the options will do provided party rules apply. In normal maps once you are in party no pug can join you unless specifically invited. This should be consistent in elites too.
I have disconnected numerous times during elites when boss health down to 5%. This has resulted in me breaking numerous routers due to frustration. I see no impact in the economy unless people become naive enough to invite others just during elite boss fight.

Also if there is a fear of economy breakdown just make this change then, allow people who were in party during start of elite map only to join. You could just maintain a list of the players and when a person tries to rejoin just check whether the person is in the list or not and allow accordingly. Of course its easier said than done. Of course with this change you have to make sure that as soon as a person scopes out of the elite map, the timer should be removed immediately to prevent any leaderboard exploit.
Just allow players already in party to rejoin and not random invites or random people from arlor. I guess that will be a win-win for everyone. Please take your time to read this through and please let me know your feedback.

[Shanamerny]

I hate running elite with random pug..Why? Most often than not, ppl leave when they die or think it's too difficult, so the rest follow suit. It would be great if ppl can join in if someone decides to leave. It gives a chance to those that can't find a party to complete a elite map.

That being said, I don't like the idea of a random joining in on a party if someone dc or has to leave. Like someone else wrote, if you're in a party, then allow the leader to invite someone in.

This will affect the economy though. This change would make it easier to complete maps (pug) and get loot. More loot drops means loot price drop. I love the idea but sigh.. Prices are dropping as is..imagine if this were to be implemented. I'm torn here. Lol

[tearacan]

I have disconnected numerous times during elites when boss health down to 5%. This has resulted in me breaking numerous routers due to frustration.

router-bully try something of your own size :)
Your given example doesn't make any difference given the 2 options, at the end boss the map is locked. You won't be able to rejoin anyhow.

ps, lag isn't just caused by the connection between you and the router. It's the connection as a whole between your device and the server where it can occur.

[Zorin]

Option 3:

Allow players to join in no matter if it's a timed run.

This is an online game, players will disconnect and I don't understand why a party member can't re-join; it only screws up the run and the experience. If they keep re-joining only at the boss, well just don't party them ever again.

Disconnecting in the middle of a run doesn't help anyone and not being able to re-join doesn't help the game.

[Anarchial]

router-bully try something of your own size :)
Your given example doesn't make any difference given the 2 options, at the end boss the map is locked. You won't be able to rejoin anyhow.

ps, lag isn't just caused by the connection between you and the router. It's the connection as a whole between your device and the server where it can occur.

I dont get it. In normal maps at boss fight doesnt get locked. Does it?

[Bigboyblue]

Option 1 is best. If it takes more time to implement than so be it. I also think that adding a third category called Hard that is between normal and elite would be interesting. Let it drop elite chests and the second tier legendary gear. This would make end game a bit more interesting for casual players who don't want to run elites.

[Origin]

Neither.

4 suggestions though -

#1 - Similar but bit different to what u had in mind. An untimed Elite mode with same loot table, comparatively lower % drop rate, easier mobs but with higher hp. For casuals or death-conscious gamers. Casual entry until x number of mobs are killed. If you're really worried about economy maybe impose a damage cap or something.

#2 - Introduce a timed chain-dungeon mode for each area. Similar to Elite Mines of Nordia only u don't have to create new maps per se. Clear 4 maps, 4 bosses in a row for a combined time. Could stagger release of each mega-dungeon, make them only available for limited time to sustain player interest/activity/spend. Well u can probably think of how it could benefit u monetarily blah3 anyway so I'll leave it to u.

#3 - 15 to 20-man elite raid dungeons. I'd love to see this, don't know if can be pulled off gracefully on mobile. Maybe test the waters with 10. PVE based guilds typically lose out in rank value since activity is currently heavily PVP-player-centred, the idea of kdr also in pvper's favour. This would even out the odds easily, I think, and encourage PVE-ers to get geared (ka-chingching for their bling bling).

#4 - Guild "quest" elite maps with a countdown timer.

Think abt it. :)

[Hoardseeker]

Option 2 Is Good,

Timed runners are well Prepared...so Option 2 is good

[FluffNStuff]

This just may be the greatest thing to happen to the Rogue since the introduction of the bow! When you get to the boss and have extra space, who you gonna call? A tank? Nah, we all know tanks are useless on bosses. A Sorc? Where's the crowd that needs to be controlled. No, you would invite someone that means YOU get your loot the FASTEST and that is the one toon specifically designed for killing bosses. I shall patiently await your call.

[Hoardseeker]

This just may be the greatest thing to happen to the Rogue since the introduction of the bow! When you get to the boss and have extra space, who you gonna call? A tank? Nah, we all know tanks are useless on bosses. A Sorc? Where's the crowd that needs to be controlled. No, you would invite someone that means YOU get your loot the FASTEST and that is the one toon specifically designed for killing bosses. I shall patiently await your call.

Tanks aren't useless at the Bosses , I remember how hard it was to defeat Inan'Hesh with One Tank and He can KO Sorcs and Rogues in one hit, we needed 2Tanks to Kill him

[FluffNStuff]

Tanks aren't useless at the Bosses , I remember how hard it was to defeat Inan'Hesh with One Tank and He can KO Sorcs and Rogues in one hit, we needed 2Tanks to Kill him

Good point! There are 2-3 out of 35 bosses that tanks are useful on! I shall forward those calls to the appropriate warrior as I would be quite busy on one of the other bosses.

[mjrpain]

I like the idea of untimed runs. Option 2: I assume party rules would still apply. If you are in a party randoms wouldn't be able to join map. If someone disconnects or leaves the party leader could invite a new member.

[Pyoom]

I'm up for Option 2. Players who disconnected will have a chance to re-enter the specified elite map to kill the boss for its loot or its ap.

[phillyr]

Why not add a casual elite button to the world map?

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[Milan Lame Man]

Why not add a casual elite button to the world map?
Exactly my thought.
In addition to Aquaducts and [Aquaducts] there would be {Aquaducts}, untimed/joinable elite Aquaducts. And so on.
That should not take that much work to implement as all the code is already there.

I see where the worries about economy come from. I would definitely try to organize party swapping at boss from non-elixir to elixir members.
OTOH, if pet/pot spamming is fixed in the same release, we might see loot prices skyrocketing anyway.

[Carapace]

Why not add a casual elite button to the world map?

This was actually the original path we were going down for making Casual Elites, however the maintenance moving forward would double our future workloads when changing elites or adding new ones, and there is the patch size for those downloaded updates to consider. There are of course numerous other internal factors we can't discuss openly on the forums regarding our tech. While it would work, it's not a preferred solution, and we want to do it right, or we want to do it soon which is the main reason this thread exists. To get a pulse on how everyone feels about the potential options we are considering.

In response to an earlier post regarding NOT allowing random people to join, but being invite only is interesting. We will have to mull over the potential consequences of such a thing but it makes sense to me as a gut reaction.

[phillyr]

This was actually the original path we were going down for making Casual Elites, however the maintenance moving forward would double our future workloads when changing elites or adding new ones, and there is the patch size for those downloaded updates to consider. There are of course numerous other internal factors we can't discuss openly on the forums regarding our tech. While it would work, it's not a preferred solution, and we want to do it right, or we want to do it soon which is the main reason this thread exists. To get a pulse on how everyone feels about the potential options we are considering.

In response to an earlier post regarding NOT allowing random people to join, but being invite only is interesting. We will have to mull over the potential consequences of such a thing but it makes sense to me as a gut reaction.

I understand why not now, it was just the first thing that popped in my head. I do like the invite only on elites...keeps unwanted randoms out of the map

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[Thrindal]

My primary concern with either solution would be loot. I just don't think someone coming in at the end just to fight the Boss should have the same access to Achievements and Loot that full runners do. Achievements should remain a complete run required for achievement. Loot should possibly be better in timed runs or have a higher drop rate than untimed runs.

I do think having an "Elite Lite" option is a good idea I just don't think the same benefits should be awarded to "Elite Lite" players as to "True Elite" players.

[Rare]

I think option 1 is great.

[notfaded1]

:eagerness:
This just may be the greatest thing to happen to the Rogue since the introduction of the bow! When you get to the boss and have extra space, who you gonna call? A tank? Nah, we all know tanks are useless on bosses. A Sorc? Where's the crowd that needs to be controlled. No, you would invite someone that means YOU get your loot the FASTEST and that is the one toon specifically designed for killing bosses. I shall patiently await your call.

I concur with Fluff here... call the Rogue Army and even better with an Arcane Ring ;^}

Sometimes if you can't get an entire party together out of your guild it would be nice to run elites with random others once in while for sure.
And once again like Fluff said... Who you gonna call at that boss to kill 'em quick??? The rogue army that's who!

Oh yeah... and whichever you can implement right away let's give it try!

[Kakashis]

Glad you guys are looking into elite dungeons! Option 1 or option 2 won't address the core problems associated with elites. The main reason why many aren't running elites currently is because the cost to benefit ratio is way too high than say farming for locked crates or eggs in normal maps. The later is 100% profits albeit at a slower pace, but MUCH higher chance and profits are guaranteed. At least in elite NORDR, the daily 20 boss quest allowed players to get most of their potions back even if they looted nothing. Also, of the daily quests that are availble now, none of them function in elite mode! Essentially you need a vast amount of gold to sustain elites when you loot nothing. I'm using 30-60k in potions a day. Sounds like a lot, but it's really only 1000-2000health pots and 2000-3000mana pots. They add up to almost running you poor!

For those used to elites, it's a challenge and although quite elusive, that one nice pink after a few days of hard farming allows us to continue for the thrill and fun. For the average new player who struggles to find a party, joining PUGS "might" be a solution, but a vast number of people that run elites are running full party and wouldn't want a new comer to join in especially when you're already at a boss. We would rather give it to one of our own guildmate than a random at that point.

It's the cost and time consumption that keeps making elites less favorable to the greater community. If you want everyone to run them, make it like season 1 difficulty where it was very simple and lightening fast, but loot becomes worthless. Keep it the way it is now or your proposed new way and I guarantee that it'll still be roughly the same people that run them now. Perhaps a happier medium between season one and the way it is now? Bottom line is that Option 1 or Option 2 are not going to change people's interest in elites because it's not addressing the core issue.

[octavos]

Glad you guys are looking into elite dungeons! Option 1 or option 2 won't address the core problems associated with elites. The main reason why many aren't running elites currently is because the cost to benefit ratio is way too high than say farming for locked crates or eggs in normal maps. The later is 100% profits albeit at a slower pace, but MUCH higher chance and profits are guaranteed. At least in elite NORDR, the daily 20 boss quest allowed players to get most of their potions back even if they looted nothing. Also, of the daily quests that are availble now, none of them function in elite mode! Essentially you need a vast amount of gold sustain elites when you loot nothing. I'm using 30-50k in potions a day.

For those used to elites, it's a challenge and although quite elusive, that one nice pink after a few days of hard farming allows us to continue for the thrill and fun. For the average new player who struggles to find a party, joining PUGS "might" be a solution, but a vast number of people that run elites are running full party and wouldn't want a new comer to join in.

It's the cost and time consumption that keeps making elites less favorable to the greater community. If you want everyone to run them, make it like season 1 difficulty where it was very simple and easy, but loot becomes worthless. Keep it the way it is now and only a handful of players will run them. Perhaps a happy medium? Option 1 or Option 2 are not going to change people's interest in elites.

+1 now that right there..is why I cant do elites..its hard marking money, and to merch you need to have spent quite a bit of time and effort to make that a viable option.
the cost/benifit is to demanding..thats why normal maps are just fine with me.

[Fyrce]

I'd prefer Option 1 but I wouldn't mind trying Option 2 with the following:

When a group starts, the instance is timed. The timed instance is either a public PUG game or a private PARTY instance.

When someone leaves or dc's, the dungeon becomes open if it was a PUG game.

If it is a PARTY game, only party members may join. This may include old and new party members. I suppose in this case, it's also an open game, but only open to that party.

[GoodSyntax]

Glad you guys are looking into elite dungeons! Option 1 or option 2 won't address the core problems associated with elites. The main reason why many aren't running elites currently is because the cost to benefit ratio is way too high than say farming for locked crates or eggs in normal maps. The later is 100% profits albeit at a slower pace, but MUCH higher chance and profits are guaranteed. At least in elite NORDR, the daily 20 boss quest allowed players to get most of their potions back even if they looted nothing. Also, of the daily quests that are availble now, none of them function in elite mode! Essentially you need a vast amount of gold to sustain elites when you loot nothing. I'm using 30-60k in potions a day. Sounds like a lot, but it's really only 1000-2000health pots and 2000-3000mana pots. They add up to almost running you poor!

For those used to elites, it's a challenge and although quite elusive, that one nice pink after a few days of hard farming allows us to continue for the thrill and fun. For the average new player who struggles to find a party, joining PUGS "might" be a solution, but a vast number of people that run elites are running full party and wouldn't want a new comer to join in especially when you're already at a boss. We would rather give it to one of our own guildmate than a random at that point.

It's the cost and time consumption that keeps making elites less favorable to the greater community. If you want everyone to run them, make it like season 1 difficulty where it was very simple and lightening fast, but loot becomes worthless. Keep it the way it is now or your proposed new way and I guarantee that it'll still be roughly the same people that run them now. Perhaps a happier medium between season one and the way it is now? Bottom line is that Option 1 or Option 2 are not going to change people's interest in elites because it's not addressing the core issue.

Perfectly said! For farming runs (other than eggs and crates) to be viable, there has to be a balance between payoff and cost. This is the reason why I suggested intermediate leveled maps for current and previous seasons. Not only will it give mainstream, crate geared players something more suitable than the pounding, brutal strugglebus they receive in the Elite Caves of Tarawea, but it will give folks that routinely run elites a chance to develop new strategies against mobs that you cannot one hit and that actually could kill you. Gear that drops in these midlevel maps should also be appropriate for midlevel - meaning second or third tier elite legendaries and at best Elite Silver chests. This way, players can build up an income stream and save enough to buy gear that will prepare them for the true elites.

This will have the following impacts on the game:

1 - Mainstream players could actually find PUGs that can run with them, without it turning into hour long maps.
2 - Players can develop a modest income without the extreme expenses of elite maps.
3 - Second tier and third tier elite legendaries will drop in price and become more affordable, yet still have enough value to provide positive income.
4 - Top tier elite legendaries and elite golden chests retain their value as more players become introduced/accustomed to true elite maps.
5 - Crate and Egg availability is reduced (since farmers have more viable options for positive income), which leads to increased pricing on these items.

[falmear]

Perfectly said! For farming runs (other than eggs and crates) to be viable, there has to be a balance between payoff and cost. This is the reason why I suggested intermediate leveled maps for current and previous seasons. Not only will it give mainstream, crate geared players something more suitable than the pounding, brutal strugglebus they receive in the Elite Caves of Tarawea, but it will give folks that routinely run elites a chance to develop new strategies against mobs that you cannot one hit and that actually could kill you. Gear that drops in these midlevel maps should also be appropriate for midlevel - meaning second or third tier elite legendaries and at best Elite Silver chests. This way, players can build up an income stream and save enough to buy gear that will prepare them for the true elites.

This will have the following impacts on the game:

1 - Mainstream players could actually find PUGs that can run with them, without it turning into hour long maps.
2 - Players can develop a modest income without the extreme expenses of elite maps.
3 - Second tier and third tier elite legendaries will drop in price and become more affordable, yet still have enough value to provide positive income.
4 - Top tier elite legendaries and elite golden chests retain their value as more players become introduced/accustomed to true elite maps.
5 - Crate and Egg availability is reduced (since farmers have more viable options for positive income), which leads to increased pricing on these items.

Most of you completely over look the fact that anything that is easy to farm drops rapidly in price as the auction house gets flooded. I can remember when Malison was like 1M+ and Elite Bael could one shot you. Malison is now a 50k egg. Adding intermediate elite maps doesn't help anyone because you are looking for some middle ground between normal and elite maps. What will happens is all the pros will flock to these maps when the prices are good and farm the heck out of it. Once the prices fall, few will be interested and we are back to square one. The only things of value in the game are when something is good and rare. The most important of the two is how rare it is.

If you want a modest income then I suggest people do the following:

1) Go farm locked crates in KM3. Its boring but you can make a decent income on this.
2) Understand what maps drop which eggs in normal and elite. And farm these.
3) Run elite The Wilds in Tindirin, this map is easy if you are properly geared. This is the PUG map people should be running. And if you die the run back is shorter and easier then other maps. And this is the place where people should be learning their skills.
4) Farm for teeth normal and elite Tindirin. So far I have farmed 458 teeth since the expansion released. However most of that was in elites. But the first few weeks I was able to farm 150 teeth off the normal maps. And on the first day dragonite bar was released, I sold it for a lot of gold. You can either buy helm/armor or dragonite bar and either sell or use the helm/armor.

Anytime scaling is reduced, the loot sells for very little. So when its hard, barrier to entry keeps the loot rare and the price high. This has been already discussed back when they wanted to eliminate elites entirely.

[Tendirin]

Hope this works will probaly be hard work

[Jenvy]

No.

NO.

NO!

N to the freakin' O!!!!

Option 1 and Option 2 are both bad ideas that will be abused by solo farmers inviting guildies at the end of a run. This will utterly decimate the elite pink drop economy, making running elites worthless.

Do you WANT to destroy your game, STS?

The only fix that should be implemented is allowing dcd players back into the zone. Nothing more. If you can't figure out a way to do this AND ONLY THIS, then don't change anything.

[utpal]

option 2 is good.
and the serious guys tht want lb run will party up with other serious guys. so not frustrating i think.

[ideawaster]

Good. Now we can start the map with mages with ice, clock and fire. When reaching the boss, one by one could logged out slowly and swap in Rou account to kill the boss. That means we could swap in any classes at any point of time during the elite game.

[Joncheese]

Hello everyone! We have some thoughts about Elite dungeons and their accessibility, and so I'm posing the question to the community. Thanks for taking some time to read and share your thoughts!

Regarding Elite Dungeons
Currently Elite dungeons are very rigid in that every run is a timed run. Due to the nature of a timed run being a potential leader board run, additional players are locked out from joining a timed Elite run once the timer has begun. Typically there is frustration associated with our more casual players that would very much like to defeat the content, and not be at the mercy of latency or players leaving mid run. This results in the run being unfruitful and leaves players with an unfavorable experience. Internally we have discussed two possible means of solving this problem, and so I am going to take a moment to convey these options to the community in such a way that we can make a more educated move in regards to potential implementations to address this issue.

Before getting into specifics, the cornerstone of these ideas is the idea of “Casual” Elite maps. This would be the exact same content as the normal Elite runs, only without the timer component and no leader board implications. This means that we can create Elite maps where players can join, leave, and progress further with multiple people interchangeably in order to experience the content free from the restrictions of the timed runs. Invite your friends, invite your guild mates, or replace a party member at any time during the run!

First solution
The first solution is our ideal solution. It creates an up front, easy to understand user experience that results in the best of both worlds. There will be a preference/option in the game options that allows the player to ENABLE or DISABLE Casual Elite mode, and as a result the game will funnel players trying to do timed runs into their respective dungeons, and casual players into theirs. The two would never cross paths, meaning a timed runner would never end up in a timeless map, and vice versa.

The problem here is that it will take quite a bit of tech time to complete, and as a result would be pushed out to a much further potential release date. We do however believe this is the correct way to handle this from a usability and design perspective.


Second Solution
The secondary solution is a bit more circumstantial. Players will all still start an Elite zone as a timed run, however once a player leaves of their own free will, or a player is disconnected longer than a specified amount of time the zone becomes an open run. The timer will go away, and other players will be allowed to join in from invites and others coming in to Elite games from the world map.

Things to consider here is that the pool of players will remain mixed. If player A and his team are doing a timed run and a teammate times out, it’s no longer a timed run. Player B then tries to join an Elite zone to do a timed run, but now instead joins this run in progress where he cannot do a timed instance. It really has a tendency to frustrate players interested in doing timed runs more than players who just want to be able to complete a zone and invite their friends after the fact. We feel we can justify this under the assumption that serious teams running elite maps have a full team that they are trying to run with.

There are some edge cases naturally – Players running Elite maps solo, teams of two or three, etc. but overall this is something that could be implemented fairly quickly by comparison to the original (and proper) solution.

We’re looking for community thoughts on this before discussing and getting plans moving.

Thanks everyone!
Carapace

Personally i would just allow you to be able to invite back a dcd member of the party or another player if needed. Its the simplest fix and the only one that is needed. Once you start messing around with map difficulties to accommodate lower geared players you start causing problems in the economy. It's my understanding that these are what lower level maps are for..... when i was undergeared i couldnt do certain maps, which is fine with me as i wasnt geared enough. I remember spending 2 weeks on mount spyr..... Surely endgame (last few maps) should be hard and you should need high end pink gear minimum?

Re-invite option would work because:

If dcd member comes back on line he/she can be re invited.
If player has to leave the run isnt wasted.
There are no random players joining.
Economy remains the same (pinks still high prices).


Neither.

4 suggestions though -

#1 - Similar but bit different to what u had in mind. An untimed Elite mode with same loot table, comparatively lower % drop rate, easier mobs but with higher hp. For casuals or death-conscious gamers. Casual entry until x number of mobs are killed. If you're really worried about economy maybe impose a damage cap or something.

#2 - Introduce a timed chain-dungeon mode for each area. Similar to Elite Mines of Nordia only u don't have to create new maps per se. Clear 4 maps, 4 bosses in a row for a combined time. Could stagger release of each mega-dungeon, make them only available for limited time to sustain player interest/activity/spend. Well u can probably think of how it could benefit u monetarily blah3 anyway so I'll leave it to u.

#3 - 15 to 20-man elite raid dungeons. I'd love to see this, don't know if can be pulled off gracefully on mobile. Maybe test the waters with 10. PVE based guilds typically lose out in rank value since activity is currently heavily PVP-player-centred, the idea of kdr also in pvper's favour. This would even out the odds easily, I think, and encourage PVE-ers to get geared (ka-chingching for their bling bling).

#4 - Guild "quest" elite maps with a countdown timer.

Think abt it. :)

You should look at these suggestions :)

[Energizeric]

Hello everyone! We have some thoughts about Elite dungeons and their accessibility, and so I'm posing the question to the community. Thanks for taking some time to read and share your thoughts!

Regarding Elite Dungeons
Currently Elite dungeons are very rigid in that every run is a timed run. Due to the nature of a timed run being a potential leader board run, additional players are locked out from joining a timed Elite run once the timer has begun. Typically there is frustration associated with our more casual players that would very much like to defeat the content, and not be at the mercy of latency or players leaving mid run. This results in the run being unfruitful and leaves players with an unfavorable experience. Internally we have discussed two possible means of solving this problem, and so I am going to take a moment to convey these options to the community in such a way that we can make a more educated move in regards to potential implementations to address this issue.

Before getting into specifics, the cornerstone of these ideas is the idea of “Casual” Elite maps. This would be the exact same content as the normal Elite runs, only without the timer component and no leader board implications. This means that we can create Elite maps where players can join, leave, and progress further with multiple people interchangeably in order to experience the content free from the restrictions of the timed runs. Invite your friends, invite your guild mates, or replace a party member at any time during the run!

First solution
The first solution is our ideal solution. It creates an up front, easy to understand user experience that results in the best of both worlds. There will be a preference/option in the game options that allows the player to ENABLE or DISABLE Casual Elite mode, and as a result the game will funnel players trying to do timed runs into their respective dungeons, and casual players into theirs. The two would never cross paths, meaning a timed runner would never end up in a timeless map, and vice versa.

The problem here is that it will take quite a bit of tech time to complete, and as a result would be pushed out to a much further potential release date. We do however believe this is the correct way to handle this from a usability and design perspective.


Second Solution
The secondary solution is a bit more circumstantial. Players will all still start an Elite zone as a timed run, however once a player leaves of their own free will, or a player is disconnected longer than a specified amount of time the zone becomes an open run. The timer will go away, and other players will be allowed to join in from invites and others coming in to Elite games from the world map.

Things to consider here is that the pool of players will remain mixed. If player A and his team are doing a timed run and a teammate times out, it’s no longer a timed run. Player B then tries to join an Elite zone to do a timed run, but now instead joins this run in progress where he cannot do a timed instance. It really has a tendency to frustrate players interested in doing timed runs more than players who just want to be able to complete a zone and invite their friends after the fact. We feel we can justify this under the assumption that serious teams running elite maps have a full team that they are trying to run with.

There are some edge cases naturally – Players running Elite maps solo, teams of two or three, etc. but overall this is something that could be implemented fairly quickly by comparison to the original (and proper) solution.

We’re looking for community thoughts on this before discussing and getting plans moving.

Thanks everyone!
Carapace

Hey Carapace, I did not have time to read this whole thread, but after reading your post, I have a suggestion that is similar to option #2 with some small changes that I think would solve all problems.....

If the players in an elite zone are in a party, then nobody else should be able to join, and the timed run will continue even if someone gets disconnected. However, if this group of players wants others to be able to join, then they must disband their party. Once the party disappears, then others are free to join and the run becomes a PUG run and the timer disappears.

If there is no party to begin with, then it is a PUG from the beginning with no timer.

If a player wishes to run an elite map solo, then all he/she has to do is use the old "/partyinvite 000" command and then it will be a solo party in a timed run.


I think this solves all the issues you are hoping to solve. The question is if you can accomplish this. Can you re-categorize from timed run to non-timed run in the middle. It sounds like you can based on your #2 option.

[Waheedski]

Whatever the option the community seeks is the best option.

But make sure the market does not get saturated! I can't emphasis this enough. As Kaalizaa said have a hard mode - but have a loot table slightly less than what you can get in elites. Basically dont stack the loot drops in hard mode with what you get in elite drops.

You can have potion drops, maybe elixir drops, epic, rare, legendary pet drops., 2nd, 3rd rate gear drops etc etc..

[Nitexx]

How hard would it be to simply give a token to all players that started the run, and thus allow only a dcd player that bears that token re-entry? This can still remain a timed run, without allowing swapping. I'm assuming if a login has more than one character you can identify the character for that login. Thus elites can then remain as is.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[Candylicks]

There is no way I would want a random person joining our elite map runs if we had someone leave or disconnect. I mean, we have been practicing these maps and I belong to an elite PvE guild for a reason. To have a random pop in after this change would be extremely irritating. I picture someone coming in and bungling up the run for us, or abusing this and joining maps so they can get to boss quicker. Heck I would probably join randoms all day just for that reason. More rolls for loot, whoo.

The only way this would work is by invite only. Don't allow randoms to join maps this way, it spells disaster. Some scenarios I can see:

- The lvl 40 with no business in elites joining elite Rendtail
- One party member disconnects, comes back and is ready to rejoin the party but a random shot in there and won't drop the group
- The loot seekers, continuously pop in and out of elite runs all day for quicker paths to the boss

Please no. Invite only would be fine, you can always replace a party member with another. But not random popping in and out of elite maps.

[Bigboyblue]

There will definitely be a level of abuse of this new system. People will most definitely invite guildmates/friends at the boss to increase loot drops. I'll give 40% of the gold I make from anyone that invites me to an elite run at the boss :).

I have a couple suggestions. Add an option at the beginning of the run that allows either invites only or random joining. That way if you don't want to allow randoms joining then you can set it to invite only. If someone starts a map solo then no one should be able to join. No /partyl then invite friends for the boss and the loot. Make the run capped at the amount of players that started it. So if 2 start only 2 can be there for the boss. If 3, then 3. This would save people from exploiting this new option.

I think that the premise is good. It opens up the end game to a more casual player. This is a step in the right direction. However you don't want to create rage with the current end game player base. I think the suggestions I mentioned above solves most issues.

[Kellhus]

I think it's good idea for those that dc to be able to join back to the map but not any others unless invited. This allows people who have dc issue to finish their run, also limits easy accessibility to jumping in maps near done and exploiting gear drops.
Just my two cents.
Idr like the idea of different levels of elite. Elite is elite.

Sent from my youknowwhat using youknowwhich

[VenomsChaos]

bigboyblue have a good point, but if 2 ppl start 2 ppl can finish <<< if its happen, players will be start run 4 player than others leave after start, than join on boss... need find a way for clean it to..

allready i dont think all thats needed, just let team members,can leave / join back in 2-3 min... its enought...

- if you runing a random team and sameone leave begining of map, you can just restart game...

- if you runing and 1-2 player leaved front of map or near boss = 2-3 ppl still can finish map..

so i dont think there samething needed, also its need much effort for the a great balance, so better dont do anything like thats and waste effort on damage bugs. or guild news ideas...

Point = just let disconnected team member can be join in 3 min, if same name dc character dont join in 3-4 min, than dont let any 1 join...

Also a vote kick from team button could be good, if you run 4 ppl , if 3 player want boot same player from map... or 3 player runing, 2 vote could be kick other player... idk if mods runing in hauntlets or elites, so many time ppls just leeching... and every 1 more team member makes dungeon harder... i think need a boot from dungeon button ( could be with vote )


StS doing news and mostly i like that news, because news allways takes me stay active but i prefer they focus on mainly neededs first..

1 idea for the StS i hope they read it :) pls do contest in forum by player ideas about news, and choice most importand correct ideas and do they first :)

[Bigboyblue]

bigboyblue have a good point, but if 2 ppl start 2 ppl can finish <<< if its happen, players will be start run 4 player than others leave after start, than join on boss... need find a way for clean it to..

I think if people want to do this then that's ok. As you know maps get harder depending on how many players there are. I don't believe they get any easier if people leave the map. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. If two people want to fight through a map that's made for four people then go for it. You deserve to invite friends for the boss. I can't really see people doing this that often.

[Carapace]

to the point about it being expensive to run elites, what is the MOST expensive aspect of running an elite that makes it unfruitful for you? My initial thought is potions, and nowadays potentially elixir kits from the consignment shop.

[Bigboyblue]

to the point about it being expensive to run elites, what is the MOST expensive aspect of running an elite that makes it unfruitful for you? My initial thought is potions, and nowadays potentially elixir kits from the consignment shop.

You're correct. Potions and kits. The other point is that there is an opportunity lost. The time spent in elites could be used to run km3 and get locks or possibly nexus. Sort of guaranteed money compared to a greater reward long shot in elites.

[falmear]

to the point about it being expensive to run elites, what is the MOST expensive aspect of running an elite that makes it unfruitful for you? My initial thought is potions, and nowadays potentially elixir kits from the consignment shop.

The most expensive aspect is not getting loot that exceeds your costs. The way it is right now what you loot isn't better then what you got. So who is buying this stuff? The problem is the balance between mythics vs lootable legendary weapons. The cost is only relative to your chance to loot something that people want. Right now in my opinion there is only 1-2 maps really worth farming. And this is not a complaint about not getting good loot, its a complaint about how items have been designed as they compare to mythics and how they have been released. I suggest you check out this thread:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?153057-The-future-of-itemization-and-locked-crates

Right now pot consumption is quite high but thats because no one really wants to buy the magma armor. People are still using their mythic sets and on a number of maps there is a lot of DOT damage which burns through pots quite rapidly.

[Kapirotoftime]

Pls ..
U guys dont need to do any thing just one thing need change..
Id u r in a party amd hot disconnected...
Then u can join back...
Once the timer is start u can not change players..
Just the player hot disconnected or...
Any player leave for some reason then only he can join back...

Sent from my GT-I9082 using Tapatalk

Exactly

[Yakiniku]

No.

NO.

NO!

N to the freakin' O!!!!

Option 1 and Option 2 are both bad ideas that will be abused by solo farmers inviting guildies at the end of a run. This will utterly decimate the elite pink drop economy, making running elites worthless.

Do you WANT to destroy your game, STS?

The only fix that should be implemented is allowing dcd players back into the zone. Nothing more. If you can't figure out a way to do this AND ONLY THIS, then don't change anything.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that this is what will eventually happen. I'm a solo farmer myself and do several instances of elite Tindirin alone per day. What's to stop someone like me from "selling" bosses or giving them out to guildies, and ultimately contributing to the death of the pink economy?

Just fix the DC issue, honestly. I actually partied up yesterday and our tank DCed. Luckily the remaining party members were competent enough to complete the run sans tank, but this isn't true for all parties.
For this, I really love the instance token suggestion mentioned in one of the previous posts.

[skorpionx]

option 2 here but with some change... a "dungeon-finder like" that after a player disconnect is able to pick from a pool of person quequed with requirement item level of something like that

[Energizeric]

The most expensive aspect is not getting loot that exceeds your costs. The way it is right now what you loot isn't better then what you got. So who is buying this stuff? The problem is the balance between mythics vs lootable legendary weapons. The cost is only relative to your chance to loot something that people want. Right now in my opinion there is only 1-2 maps really worth farming. And this is not a complaint about not getting good loot, its a complaint about how items have been designed as they compare to mythics and how they have been released. I suggest you check out this thread:

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?153057-The-future-of-itemization-and-locked-crates

Right now pot consumption is quite high but thats because no one really wants to buy the magma armor. People are still using their mythic sets and on a number of maps there is a lot of DOT damage which burns through pots quite rapidly.

I agree. The level 41 magma armors should really be better than the level 36 mythic. It's one thing if folks had paid 10m+ for their level 36 mythic helm and armor and then they would be somewhat exclusive. But because these are level 26/31 items which have been around forever, the price has dropped to about 2m for a set, and now everyone has them. So who is going to spend any decent money on magma armors when the stats are not even as good. The magma armors should have been better.

I do hope as part of the new itemization, there are some new legendary armors that are added to the game which exceed the stats of the level 36 mythics. It would also be nice to see some new level 41 mythic as well, but as we all know these will probably cost 5-10m per item minimum, so I think some better legendary helms and armors are warranted. Or else, maybe buff the magma armors, then people may actually be willing to shell out their 200+ dragkin teeth for the premium magma set.

Actually, I think buffing the magma armors would be a good thing. There are so few of them in the game at this point because nobody bothers to farm dungeons #3 & 5. So this would encourage people to start farming there and would help give a nice boost to the economy. If suddenly these armors were the best in game, players would have new motivation to start farming again, and also would have new motivation to farm for teeth to get the premium set from the teeth vendor.

[tearacan]

I dont get it. In normal maps at boss fight doesnt get locked. Does it?

yes, if you clear map until boss. map gets locked, you get a message screen saying its full or something even when it's not.

[Candylicks]

to the point about it being expensive to run elites, what is the MOST expensive aspect of running an elite that makes it unfruitful for you? My initial thought is potions, and nowadays potentially elixir kits from the consignment shop.

To run elites, you need potions, plat to rev, and lix kits.

Then there is the issue of the pinks that are dropping, I personally have a hard time selling the magma items unless it's majorly undercut in CS.

[Zanpakuto]

to the point about it being expensive to run elites, what is the MOST expensive aspect of running an elite that makes it unfruitful for you? My initial thought is potions, and nowadays potentially elixir kits from the consignment shop.

Pretty much what Bigboyblue said. It is the potions, and the luck elixor at the boss for running elites, but yes, it's also the opportunity cost of the run where I could have looted a bunch of locked because it's multiple bosses many many times over vs 1-3 times on the elite bosses. It's a risk that I've been taking becuase I strive to run elites, but sadly, many players are turned off. I'll say that right now since expansion has started, my gold amount is in the negative on the amount I've spent vs the amount I've looted back. If all the other classes think it's bad pot wise, for a tank it's way worse!


You're correct. Potions and kits. The other point is that there is an opportunity lost. The time spent in elites could be used to run km3 and get locks or possibly nexus. Sort of guaranteed money compared to a greater reward long shot in elites.

+1

[flluby2]

I see many exploits here:
1. in PL, a handful of very opportunistic player, which i dont have to name, will join any unlocked game that is almost finished to collect loot.
And weirdly, that loot always falls to that last joiner.
2. there will be plenty of class switching to exploit the run. get warrior and mage to clear mobs, then switch the warrior and mage to rogue at boss.
3. more exploits. solo run/ less party members for easy mobs clear, then inviting full pt at boss. It is the mobs that gives ppl headache at elites.
4. players that dc during the game. while it might be genuine for now, if you allow any original player to rejoin later, i see a potential loophole for exploits too.
one could be in the party, then get out, and rejoins when at boss. Particularly effective for park/ teleport method too.
5. im sure there are many more exploits abounds, these are just a few that i could think of on top of my head.

Really, the core of issue is the server problem. Even with a really good connection, and while having 2 accounts open, I found one being suddenly disconnected while the other ping remains stable. Fix that please. I have had enough of deaths due to dc.
Could consider having multiple international servers, since most players are located all over the world.

Actually, elites aren't very hard if the party just freaking use combo lix, revive plats and spam away pots.
it is hard when everyone run back to rev at entrance.
and the whole points of elite APs? you have to reach level cap, it is for hardcore gamers to farm.

An easy fix to this is giving away plat rev kits, instead of locking it to plats exclusive.
Since you opened up elixir to not being strictly plats purchasable, why not the plats rev too.

The problem with AL is, the map difficulty scales to the number of players in the map, regardless of how many players are currently engaged with the mobs.
Assuming a full pt, one down, means 3 ppl are fighting it out for 4, and another down, 2 ppl holding it for 4, 3 down, one ppl holding it out for 4.
that's why pugs with leecher is such a pain.
In PL, i can't care less with leechers on my map, as I could handle the enemies all the same. they dont get suddenly stronger with each ppl popping in.

[Energizeric]

Pretty much what Bigboyblue said. It is the potions, and the luck elixor at the boss for running elites, but yes, it's also the opportunity cost of the run where I could have looted a bunch of locked because it's multiple bosses many many times over vs 1-3 times on the elite bosses. It's a risk that I've been taking becuase I strive to run elites, but sadly, many players are turned off. I'll say that right now since expansion has started, my gold amount is in the negative on the amount I've spent vs the amount I've looted back. If all the other classes think it's bad pot wise, for a tank it's way worse!

So what exactly is your suggestion to fix this? If they make elites easier, then more people will run them, more loot will be dropped, and prices will drop way down. So then it won't really be any different than farming for locked crates, will it?

They could make it easier to run elites, but also lower the drop rates accordingly. But then it will all even out in the long run and will still take a lot of work to loot a good item.

This again becomes the old argument that everyone wants items that are easy to get but that they can sell for millions. The problem is that this is an impossibility no matter what STS does.



To run elites, you need potions, plat to rev, and lix kits.

Then there is the issue of the pinks that are dropping, I personally have a hard time selling the magma items unless it's majorly undercut in CS.

Same complaint here. What do you suggest as a fix for this? When 30 people are all selling the same exact item, this is going to happen. If someone posted their item 5 minutes before you did, and then it is now your turn to list your item, will you undercut them? I'm sure you will. So then the next guy comes along and will do the same to you. This is the nature of economics and has little to do with this game.

The only solution is to make the item so rare and so desirable that there are never more than a couple for sale in the auction at one time. And guess what.... we already have items like that ....they are called "arcane". The legendary items are more common by design, and will always be this way.

[Candylicks]

So what exactly is your suggestion to fix this? If they make elites easier, then more people will run them, more loot will be dropped, and prices will drop way down. So then it won't really be any different than farming for locked crates, will it?

They could make it easier to run elites, but also lower the drop rates accordingly. But then it will all even out in the long run and will still take a lot of work to loot a good item.

This again becomes the old argument that everyone wants items that are easy to get but that they can sell for millions. The problem is that this is an impossibility no matter what STS does.




Same complaint here. What do you suggest as a fix for this? When 30 people are all selling the same exact item, this is going to happen. If someone posted their item 5 minutes before you did, and then it is now your turn to list your item, will you undercut them? I'm sure you will. So then the next guy comes along and will do the same to you. This is the nature of economics and has little to do with this game.

The only solution is to make the item so rare and so desirable that there are never more than a couple for sale in the auction at one time. And guess what.... we already have items like that ....they are called "arcane". The legendary items are more common by design, and will always be this way.

They need to make some super rare items we can farm from the elite bosses. Vanity + the next tier of gear, and bump up the difficulty of the maps. It will weed out people being able to farm them so hard.

And just saying, a new set of tombs will relieve these maps from being over-farmed!!!

[milkshaky]

I would like option A, but if it will really take so long, then why not implements B asap, then install A when you have that ready. That way there is at least some immediate solution to the problem and we can wait for plan A to roll out =).

[Kakashis]

to the point about it being expensive to run elites, what is the MOST expensive aspect of running an elite that makes it unfruitful for you? My initial thought is potions, and nowadays potentially elixir kits from the consignment shop.

Pretty much what everyone else above has stated. The initial turn off is the pot costs. I additionally only use luck lix and that too adds up to 20k per hour. With some bad parties taking up to an hour to finish, or even some awesome parties taking 10-15min, it's still very few luck rerolls for your gold should you get nothing. Don't get me wrong, I will run elites no matter the situation because I have enough capital to sustain me through the veggie and skittle loot rerolls, but many wouldn't be able to last a week without any loot at the cost of 100k/day in lix and pots. KM3 is still best suited to many casual players and realistically, I think there will always be a divide in who runs elites.

There are filthy rich millionaires in the game that never play elite because it takes time and the odds are bad compared to locked popping and merching. They have all the best equipments and gold to support them, but they don't run elites either. Elites are quite complexing in who actually runs them. You have to have a little bit of gold drive, but the main focus is fun for me anyways. Breaking even or earning a just a little gold for most is not enough to continue elites. Nordr 20 daily boss kills was a nice way to do things, don't know why it was removed since last season.

[Twomucho]

I'm against anything but letting someone that has dc to reconnect with party. I am Still wondering why anyone thinks there is even a problem with the elites to start with except the dc, but opening elite maps to random joins seems like a mistake that has already been made in the pvp maps. It will be abused and you will have no one wanting to go into the zones bc of it. Out of fairness to everyone who spends there time, which is extremely more than the pots or elixirs in the elite maps, the areas should remain all timed only and no random invites or joins. If dc is the problem then find a way to fix it without jeopardizing the whole system which is not flawed as of yet. I've invested in the game and I hope that you will take time time to really evaluate this before letting the beggars and scammers of Kragg to infest something like the elite maps with random joins , and standing back and watching others kill while they " supposedly" have lag problems anyway. There is a reason we play endgame and these elites are it, so I beg that you don't take that away from us by allowing others to take advantage of us and the elite maps that we learn and strive to perfect. Sorry for the soap box, thanks

[Jiarijiba]

I'm against anything but letting someone that has dc to reconnect with party. I am Still wondering why anyone thinks there is even a problem with the elites to start with except the dc, but opening elite maps to random joins seems like a mistake that has already been made in the pvp maps. It will be abused and you will have no one wanting to go into the zones bc of it. Out of fairness to everyone who spends there time, which is extremely more than the pots or elixirs in the elite maps, the areas should remain all timed only and no random invites or joins. If dc is the problem then find a way to fix it without jeopardizing the whole system which is not flawed as of yet. I've invested in the game and I hope that you will take time time to really evaluate this before letting the beggars and scammers of Kragg to infest something like the elite maps with random joins , and standing back and watching others kill while they " supposedly" have lag problems anyway. There is a reason we play endgame and these elites are it, so I beg that you don't take that away from us by allowing others to take advantage of us and the elite maps that we learn and strive to perfect. Sorry for the soap box, thanks

It should be done in similar way as normal maps - create party before entering the map. No one will be able to take free ride to the boss. But in the other hand, if you feel like it, take your chances with a pug. I know I will - every run is a different and you need to adapt to other players playstyle and skills. That makes it fun. (Yeah, I know, it is not always that fun :) )

I personally vote for option #1. If you are going to do it - do it the proper way.

[Pfurz]

Great Ideas

[Bigboyblue]

Right now you can hardly get a pug run. I haven't tried to a lot but I have several times. It doesn't happen. You join a pug, someone rage quits, the whole run is ruined. If someone new could join then pugs would be feasible. There is no more worry that if someone leaves its over. Just wait for a new person to join. I really like this idea. I have previously made a couple of recommendations on how to avoid many exploits. You can never cover all of them but if my suggestions fix all the best and easiest ones. Candy has listed some exploits that you really couldn't fix. However these seem like a lot of work. If people want to go through the hassle of doing them then they deserve the rewards.

[Foebegone]

One Idea based on a few good posts.


At the start of the map before timer starts theres an NPC.

This NPC gives you a token.

Timer starts the NPC disappears.

If you leave map the token disappears from your inventory after 5 mins (this is to allow a DC player back).

Timer goes if you get a new player in although I think if on a timed run and someone has ping high enough to DC its not gonna get on the leader board.

After boss is killed NPC reappears and you can exchange your token for chance at elite loot (think klaas but with a chance at the good stuff).

Boss still drops non elite loot.


On the cost of running its pots, please let us craft and trade HP/Mana pots. I know I can make gems then sell the gems to buy pots but as the crafting system seems to have been rather anorexic for a while now it would make it useful. Say 3 of each gem for 100 HP pots/ 2 of each for mana.

[octavos]

to the point about it being expensive to run elites, what is the MOST expensive aspect of running an elite that makes it unfruitful for you? My initial thought is potions, and nowadays potentially elixir kits from the consignment shop.

letting us farm and stash potions is a start...in elites..you need way more then 25..but on off days, gives players to save up for elites....so we can save money for other things..like armors and weapons...maybe a nice pet :)

[Energizeric]

They need to make some super rare items we can farm from the elite bosses. Vanity + the next tier of gear, and bump up the difficulty of the maps. It will weed out people being able to farm them so hard.

And just saying, a new set of tombs will relieve these maps from being over-farmed!!!

They do make super rare items: Mythic and Arcane. They come from elite golden chests, which can be farmed. But people always complain that the chance is too low to get these items from elite golden chests. So basically they are "too rare" for anyone to be interested in farming them.

I hear that you want super rare items that can be farmed, but others seem to lose interest in farming super rare items. I guess maybe what they don't like is that there is a double rarity in that it's rare to get the elite chest, and then you also have to make the decision whether or not to open it. So most players don't open them and sell them instead.

Back in season 1, you could not sell elite chests. So we all opened them. I suppose that made it a bit more fun as there was no decision to be made.

A while ago I made a suggestion for a new tombs dungeon that had a super rare drop called an "elite locked crate" that would always give a mythic or an arcane item. Perhaps they need to implement something like this. It could be a plat earner as well, as you could easily charge 100+ plat to open it. And if someone loots one and does not have plat, they can sell it for huge amounts of gold.

[Candylicks]

Ener yeah. You had a good idea with the tombs and the elite locked. Still doesn't fix the cluster of elites we have now. Where is the next staggered release of mag though? Isn't there supposed to be better ones coming?



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[GoodSyntax]

I certainly hope that they are better....for Rogues and Sorcs at least. It's kind of ridiculous that the best gear is still upgraded mythics from the Nordr expansion.

[Fyrce]

Personally I think the most expensive part of elites is the time investment vs the reward. I'm less likely to run something for 20-50min to get a green item than I am to run something for 3min... to get a green item...

Though obviously I'm crazy because I don't mind with the right people.

And btw, shouldn't elite tindirin bosses drop a tooth 100% of the time? At least then my greens and purples have friends...

[thorasaur]

I would also prefer the second Option but with a change that many have already suggested. If someone leaves the map or disconnects in the middle of the run then it should be possible for someone else to join only through invites. This will prevent the opportunists who are continuously changing maps to find one which is already half way through.
The first Option is also good but since it would take a longer time to roll out i would prefer something that could be brought into effect as soon as possible.

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[Candylicks]

Lol Fyrce. The boss most stingy with teeth is elite rendtail too. He at the least should spit out teeth every kill.

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[Otahaanak]

Let the DC player back in if he's in the party. If you can do that then problem many are having is solved. Casual players should be okay with this as you don't need to be running elite without a reliable party.

For me, I use WAY more potions in normal maps than I do in elite (we have some really good tanks :-) ). As a mage I don't have much time to pot if I grab sime aggro, it's bang - dead.

As mentioned above, the cost is time for me - 15-25 minutes with combo lix only to roll a green is tough on the wallet after 5-6 runs. Also, I will say that though sometimes my ping gets high, I have never DC from an elite run.

[R1Caz]

I think that the only things that need "fixing" for elites is for dc players in a party to be let back in. I have a friend who always seems to dc on the boss which sucks. I do solo elites sometimes so I would be really upset if people could zone in n out of my map. Loot distribution and types of loot also need to be addressed as I think this also is a reason people don't do them.

As mentioned before people are not gonna waste time, pots or elix running elites when they dont have a good party or even sometimes when they do. They will go and farm locked crates. And I think this is also a problem.
Locked crates can give us everything we want in one way or another so why bother doing anything else? The real life super rich can just come on and throw money at them drop something nice. Job done log off. People like me who like to farm n sell can spend all day doing km3 or Jarl on a good day drop plenty. Job done log off.

I appreciate that you guys need to make money and these are a good earner but all the time we have locked crates as they are nothing you do to elites will change anything. Which is bad because quite frankly I'm not sure I can stomach another season in km3 and I'm seriously thinking of quitting the game. A lot of my friends already have.

I know a lot of people are waiting for new mythics and these have been hinted at, maybe one of the items say weapons could go into elite golden chests ONLY?
Or even on to a map as a super rare drop. I like energizerics idea of an elite mythic dungeon too.

I know you guys love the game and work really hard to make it good for us, but I really believe that unless you find a way to eliminate the locked problem that suits both us and you will just be wasting your time and a lot of other people not just me will get bored. Which is sad because I'd really love there to be something here for me to stay for.

[Wutzgood]

This idea works great although I think it would be best if only the player that dc could reenter. I would not want randoms joining and leeching.

I'm mainly thinking of how good this is cause of a guildmate who constantly disconnects and doing elites with them is very tough. If they could rejoin it would be great.

I don't see a point in making a hard made with the crappier elite gear since no one wants to buy it anyway. Only the best stuff actually sells. The rest just keeps getting relisted lower and lower. And even the best sets aren't selling well due to the mythic being better and cheaper.

It won't help those people make any gold and just add more work to the sts team. I'd rather them use their time for more events than trying to fix something that will never make more gold overall than farming locked on easy stages.

Even with locked prices being so low I would make more gold in a month farming easy stages than farming elite maps and that's remained the same since I started playing in season 4.

[Crowsfoot]

Though option 1 may be harder to implement, it is preferred by me.

Many you get people play this game and option 1 would be the easiest for them to understand. I really don't want to see the spammed rage threads from people who misunderstood how option 2 worked.

[Foebegone]

Am I missing something about option 2? I presumed its how normal maps work now but the timer stops if someone leaves...

[Fiasaria]

what happened to this ? are they going to do it ? or not ?

[Dimitrian]

what happened to this ? are they going to do it ? or not ?
Come on,don't necro threads,it's very annoying.

[EQT]

Option three, add a button called time run that enables timed run start when ur in the map, which can only be accessible if no npc has been aggressive

[Madnex]

Why hasn't this been implemented yet! Either solution is good.

[Visiting]

Why hasn't this been implemented yet! Either solution is good.

3 more years and they'll announce it's shedulded to be implemented, and it'll go live the next year :D

[Dimitrian]

Ok,so since this thread has been officially waked up,it's time to do something.
Both solutions are good.IMO it will be easier for sts to implement the second idea,since they have it in PL and SL aswell.

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[Ravager]

The problem here is that it will take quite a bit of tech time to complete, and as a result would be pushed out to a much further potential release date. We do however believe this is the correct way to handle this from a usability and design perspective.




Why hasn't this been implemented yet! Either solution is good.

Quite a bit of tech time can be a long time. He must be working on #1 :p

[Madnex]

Quite a bit of tech time can be a long time. He must be working on #1 :p

Ha, we're approaching one year and two months from the original post. Seems like they forgot about it. But then again, judging from how long it took for things like razor bug and avatar damage display to be fixed...

[Fibus]

Please don't necro threads. It creates a lot of confusion for players. If you wish to discuss Elite content (or any changes you would like to see to it), please do so by creating a thread in General Discussion. Thanks. :)