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MightyMicah
05-18-2014, 09:57 PM
Hello Samhayne, and anyone else who is going to venture to read this entire thread. Thanks for checking out my perspective on balancing the current meta! Here is a quick look at what you can expect in this thread:

I. Introduction
II. Power Creep
III. Foo Strategies
IV. Hit Percentage
V. Quick Recap
VI. First Steps to Balance
A. Reworking Incomparables
B. Scaling Power Creep
VII. Conclusion

Introduction

I want to introduce this thread by saying something real fast. Please, please, please, everyone read this thread with an open mind. I'm going to mention stuff that is probably going to upset you, or that you will simply disagree with. Please focus on the main aspect of this thread, which is balance. Ask yourself if I truly am making sense as far as balance is concerned.

Power Creep

Alright, to start off I want to address one of the biggest issues in this game right now. That issue is called, "Power creep." Please watch the following video so that we can get on the same page: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

If you decided to skip the video, don't. Go back and watch it because I'm going to start using terms that you won't understand.

Ok, so what is the power creep in Pocket Legends? I mean obviously the levels consistently get harder as you level up because bosses get more health, and hit harder, and the same happens with mobs in general. Because of this, our gear is constantly scaled upwards with more damage and armor. So where is the issue? On the surface this doesn't seem like a problem. After all, we certainly wouldn't want to be as weak at cap as we are at level 10, right? Admittedly, there is a certain degree of power creep that is acceptable but it must be scaled correctly. A level 10 going through Forest Haven should have relatively as much difficulty as a 76 going through Blacksmoke mountain. Make sense? Power creep only becomes an issue when the scaling is off. For instance, if you couldn't get enough armor to survive, or enough damage to dps down the bosses. So what is our issue in Pocket Legends?

I would submit to you that the biggest form of power creep that is currently in this game is dodge, followed closely in second by critical. Let me explain my reasoning very briefly, if I can. A critical is a chance for you to deal double damage, which is significant. A dodge is a chance for you to dodge one of those damaging skills which in turn buys you time to deal damage, yourself. Now, ordinarily dodge and crit would balance each other out fairly equally. However, there is one big issue. That issue is the power creep which has taken place in damage itself. Especially with the help of level 9 skill points, damage has become insane. (And Armor hasn't been scaled correctly.) It has become so insane that you can probably beat an opponent down fairly quickly without the help of critical damage. This, in turn makes it optimal to choose dodge over critical. Don't believe me? Check out all of the characters using savage sets. Case and point.

Before I go any further, I want you to take a look at each of these pictures. Examine their stats carefully. Take a look at which set has the most dodge. I'm going to refer back to these probably quite often. (Thanks again, Bous!)

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/49bfa16b8f460034b1b63e499d7c459d.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/3458e9a757290c6a6b3bd722219ec076.jpg
http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/544f504b9a9f89a6cbf334071c4a3e0b.jpg

Ok, now I'm sure this isn't news to most people. In fact, I'm sure some of you cringe at the sight of a bear wearing savage. In fact, the first thing most people might say is, "Oh gosh, savage bear takes no skill!" Why do people say this? That brings us to our next video and portion of this thread. Again, please do not skip the video or you will be left behind: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

Foo Strategies

Ok, this is where things will get a little bit tricky, so hang with me. Most people would venture to attribute bears' huge success in the current meta to savage. I believe that this theory is not entirely correct. It's easily able to be seen that savage is the optimal set, but I don't believe it is the sole reason that is making bears overpowered. So what is? Foo strategies. Just in case you started acting like a noob and skipped the video, or just didn't pay attention, I'll refresh your memory. A "Foo" strategy stands for, "First order optimal" strategy. Here's a picture you can refer back to in case you forget: http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m587/MightyMicah/b33a2f4b9766dd037e83fa5526b86997.jpg

What is the bear's Foo strategy? I'm sure you know it. No matter what enemy the bear is fighting, he will use pretty much the same combo of skills involving beckon-stomp, followed by a dead opponent. Granted, they throw in a few debuffs, and perhaps a slash or two, but that is the basics of it. Foo strategies are not good game designing when they lack a decent, more skilled counter. In the past, this has been fine because as the video discusses, the truly talented players had ways around this. (A mage's heal or a bird's avian scream) However, due to the bad balance of the current meta, this particular foo strategy has become extremely viable. For those of you who have played since Sewer Cap, you might recall the old avian Foo strategy that most custom birds would use. Root-shattering scream-blast shot, followed by a dead opponent.

So, strictly referring to bears for a second, what might be a way of solving this Foo strategy? Well, as I stated previously this, combo wasn't an issue in the past because it had counters. Due to the (non-balanced) power creep in the game, the strategy became more powerful than it should be. This means that balancing the power creep should resort in balancing these foo strategies without completely destroying them and allowing skilled players to once again rule the arena. Now, think back for a second. What is the counter for power creep? Incomparables.

Incomparables

You'll actually notice that there are a fair amount of Incomparables in the game already. A few examples would be a fox and rhinos dash, a birds repulse, a mages firestorm, the procs on certain weapons, etc. However, the one issue with every single one of these Incomparables is one thing. Any guesses? Dodge. Every single incomparable can be dodged. (On second thought I suppose to some extent the dashes can't be dodged. However, they aren't game changing mechanics, and their damage can still be dodged.) That's partly why people (me! >.<) are so frustrated when fighting high dodge opponents. First you repulse, and that gets dodged. Then you root, and that gets dodged. Then you avian scream as a last resort and that gets dodged. What's wrong with this? Isn't that how dodge is supposed to work? Well, yes and no. Dodge should be significant, but not the all-important factor. After all, why take the time learning your range so that you can kite like a baws, when the enemy will just dodge you and then Roflstomp you to oblivion?

So how do we fix this? I mean, after all, STS is busy and doesn't have time to add new Incomparables, do they? Is there any quick fix that will bring back skill without destroying dodge? We will come back to this.

Hit Percentage

I wanted to take a brief minute or two to talk about hit percentage. Hit percentage would be considered an incomparable. Many times in various twink levels, players have had a hard time deciding what face or ring to equip because they're uncertain whether they need extra hit percentage, or extra crit, or perhaps damage. This is an example of good game design. Those tough build decisions that you make reflect the build diversity at that particular level. So is there anything wrong with hit percentage in our current meta? Yes, but only slightly.

Refer back to the pictures I posted earlier that showed the stats of each class. Notice their hit percentages. The bear's is barely over 100%. This means that debuffing a bear's hit percentage when engaging him in combat is absolutely vital! But wait, he will just dodge your debuff right? Let's suppose for a minute that he didn't. Now that you have a better understanding of what Incomparables are, let's suppose for a minute that the current blind debuffs (which debuff 60% hit) are not able to be dodged. That is, the debuff itself cannot be dodged. The damage from the debuff can be dodged. What would this allow for? It allows smart players to use their skills in correct order to efficiently take down their opponent. All the while still allowing dodge to still play an important factor in survival.

Now, even if this was the case, (that blind debuffs would hit no matter what) we would still have a problem. It would literally be the only hard counter for savage bears at the moment. This means that you would be gambling your life in every fight on the measly hope that a bear's skill won't land. That isn't skillful gaming, nor is it fun gaming. It would honestly be more fun to play candy land and hope you get queen frosteen as your first card. (Candy land! Anyone? No? Ok...)

Quick Recap

Ok, so we have discussed a ton so far. I think it would be a good idea for me to recap what we have discussed just briefly so that we are all on the same page and can continue on with my suggestions for how to fix the meta. I'm good with lists so I'll just that as a way to recap.

1. Pocket Legends has a power creep on crit, and more importantly dodge. This power creep can only be fixed with Incomparables, of which so far there is only one that is skillfully viable.
2. Bears are stuck in a Foo strategy meta due to the unbalanced power creep on damage vs armor.
3. A Hit percentage debuff that can't be dodged is an ideal type of incomparable that we could use more of to balance the power creep.

First Steps to Balance

So far we have only discussed the issues with Pocket Legends. We've only briefly and broadly tapped into some solutions, however. Now it's time to get into the more detailed analysis of how to start balancing things outs. But first, since I've been talking so long, I'd like you to watch another video. This one is less essential than the last two, but I thought I'd throw it in because it's very important to some of the things I'm going to say. Check it: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g

Ok, so, bearing in mind that we want good counter play, allow me to share a few ideas that I think would go a long way to balancing this game for skill, eliminating over powered foo strategies, and removing the unbalanced power creep.

Reworking Incomparables

First thing is first. We need to get rid of the power creep that is slowly wrecking our game. Remember when I suggested that undodgeable hit percentage debuffs are good game design? Well I believe they are, and that's why I think that every single incomparable in this game should be modeled after that kind of hit debuff. As a bird, this means that my thorn root will always root the enemy in place and debuff their dodge. However, it may not deal damage. This means that my repulse shot will always push the enemy back, whether or not it deals damage. This means that my avian scream will always slightly knock back the opponent. Etc. Now, this change is probably the most drastic one that I'm suggesting. If I'm being honest with myself I don't think the devs would do this. It would open up a whole new world of gameplay which might possibly cause unbalance in the short term. However, I'm still suggesting it because I believe that with a few minor tweaks after the update, it would provide for a more solid foundation in this game that allows for more easily balanced gameplay in the future.

One reason I believe this idea is a good one is because it fits perfectly with the idea of counter play. Everyone likes to feel that the more they play a game, the better and more skilled they become. One way to negate this feeling is to deprive a character control of themself. For example, being rooted in place generally makes a player feel helpless. It sucks to get rooted and then killed while just spamming skills trying to escape. It helps to add skills which can allow you to break free from the stun or root that has ensnared you. It also facilitates skill because players will learn to react quicker to stuns/roots.

(Another idea I had which is far fetched, and would require some effort to design would be an extra skill dedicated to blocking. If you've played any of the super smash brothers Series you should be able to recall that you could pull out a kind of bubble shield that would block all attacks for a second or two. This might be just what Pocket Legends needs.)

Scaling Power Creep

In addition to the idea above, I also think it's important that power creep is scaled correctly. One way to do this in Pocket Legends, as people have been suggesting for years now, is to start scaling Mana and Health Points. It already scales a little bit with stats but I believe each set should have a lot of health or mana associated with it. For instance, a full strength set should give *as a set bonus* 150 health and 25 mana. A dex set should give *as a set bonus* 90 health and 90 mana. A full int set should give *as a set bonus* 150 mana and 25 health. These are just suggestions and may not be accurate, but the idea remains the same. We need more health and mages need more mana, which ultimately turns into health via mana shield. Fights shouldn't be as quick as a simple beckon and stomp.

Another way to help with power creep is to stop adding crit and dodge! This is probably the biggest and most urgent need of the game right now. I believe dodge should never be able to exceed 50 by any means, and crit should never exceed 75 by any means. This would require adjusting buffs appropriately and scaling down by a lot the dodge and crit obtained by wearing gear. Gear should be for armor and damage, but not for getting insane amounts of dodge and crit! Those are two luck factors which take away from the overall experience and simply give noobs too much power with their foo strategies.

Hit percentage is another element of power creep that has only slightly slipped into the game. Due to the fact that it can be dodged, and the fact that some classes with the right build can aquire more than enough to not worry about being debuffed means that power creep has taken it's toll. Anytime you don't have to worry about a particular stat, or compare it side by side with another stat to make an all important choice means build diversity has decreased, and, most likely skill needed to play as well.

One thing to be careful with while rebalancing this game is effecting twink levels too much. You want to fix endgame, but not at the expense of ruining all of the twink levels. A couple of tips from me would be to add a slight buff to the bird's focus skill which gives him about 15 damage at level 6 and 25 damage at level 9. (Birds have trouble dealing dps at twink levels) Then begin removing the dodge and crit from end game sets appropriately while adding damage and armor where it is needed.

The effect these changes should have, if done right, will be to:

1. Effectively increase the survival at end game (hp/mana increases) which will remove foo strategies effectiveness
2. Remove the massive luck factors which currently exist and make skill a more determining factor.
3. Give incentive for players to use their class specific gear (hp/mana increases with full set bonuses)
4. Allow for end game balance without effecting twinks too much.

Conclusion

Alright, now it's time to clean all of this up. Admittedly I didn't originally plan to write such a long thread or to suggest such big changes. I hoped I could just list a few specific stats that need changing and go from there but it seems that the problems with this game run deeper than just a surface fix. Of course an overall decrease on savage and plat packs might be nice, it simply won't balance the game.

It's not that the changes will be too difficult to implement. It's just that STS needs to change their approach on how to fix the problem. What I hope I have done is successfully identified the problem and proposed some solutions for how to get these issues under control.

To conclude, we need to reduce power creep by scaling crit and dodge appropriately while allowing armor, health, mana, and damage to continue to grow as intended with each new cap. This will facilitate a growth in power while still maintaining the same balanced pvp gameplay at each level range.

We need to allow Incomparables to take their full effect allowing skillful strategy to pay off higher in the end than foo strategies. With any luck, this may even start to solve the issue of level caps being so drastic. Just imagine the day when death set is actually viable against glyph. It seems crazy but with enough Incomparables, it isn't as crazy of a thought as it may seem.

Well that's about it. Let me know what you think, guys! Would this balance the game? Is it an easy enough fix for STS? Let's discuss in the comments! Please try and stay on topic and do not flame. If you don't have anything constructive to add, please just remain quiet and observe the discussions of others.

If I think of anything else to add, I'll edit it in later. I'm tired right now and need my sleep. :P
-MM

Narb
05-18-2014, 10:02 PM
Wow! That sums up a lot of things! Great job on this!

synfullmagic_23110
05-18-2014, 10:22 PM
Nice


SillyJuan
05-18-2014, 10:42 PM
After reading this thread I understand what happened too PL

SillyJuan
05-18-2014, 10:43 PM
Thanks btw, this probably took you a lot of time to make.

Laar
05-18-2014, 10:59 PM
I read the whole thing and every word of it. This is great.

iiirootzz
05-18-2014, 11:32 PM
Every single word, read and appreciated. You did an absolutely fantastic job.


Get the devs to read this.

Immediately.

Faliziaga
05-19-2014, 02:13 AM
Damage nerf in Pvp was like a bandage to cover up the imbalance issue, but it did not resolve the problem.
In your thread you identify the roots of the symptom. Let's hope STG Devs are gonna eradicate them.

for the lulz
05-19-2014, 03:25 AM
i didnt read but i felt guilty about it cus u put in alot of effort so i ended up reading the first 5 lines . Awesome post!

Distension
05-19-2014, 03:48 AM
Great job i hope samhayne and the sts reads this!

The Happiness
05-19-2014, 05:04 AM
Micah! You have done a truly fantastic job here. I am both grateful and awestruck by the amount of time and effort you have put into this. I am extremely interested to hear what the devs have to say in response as I think that will give us all the information we need on the future of pocket legends.

Thank you for your enthusiasm and energy and for taking the time to lay bare and explain the problems regarding the game as it stands. Whatever happens with PL....you have a wonderful future ahead of you!

MightyMicah
05-19-2014, 07:37 AM
Thank you so much, everyone, for the positive feedback! I'm glad y'all appreciate it!


After reading this thread I understand what happened too PL

Good! That is what I was hoping to accomplish.


Damage nerf in Pvp was like a bandage to cover up the imbalance issue, but it did not resolve the problem.
In your thread you identify the roots of the symptom. Let's hope STG Devs are gonna eradicate them.

Exactly. The devs realized damage was getting out of hand, but I don't think they understood why. And if you don't understand why, it's hard to make any meaningful balance updates. Hopefully I helped :)


Micah! You have done a truly fantastic job here. I am both grateful and awestruck by the amount of time and effort you have put into this. I am extremely interested to hear what the devs have to say in response as I think that will give us all the information we need on the future of pocket legends.

Thank you for your enthusiasm and energy and for taking the time to lay bare and explain the problems regarding the game as it stands. Whatever happens with PL....you have a wonderful future ahead of you!

Thank you so much! To be honest I was kind of disappointed with the final result at first. Once I decided to go all out, I thought it would be much longer and more detailed. However, I feel as if I said all that needed to be said so I guess length doesn't matter. I, as well, am interested to see how STS responds to this. You're welcome, and I appreciate the compliments!

Samhayne
05-19-2014, 08:21 AM
Nice read, thanks for putting this together. Our schedule is pretty packed (when isn't it?) but we will carve out some time to dig into balance further. Thanks in advance for your patience, since it never happens as fast as people want.

FortalWao
05-19-2014, 09:54 AM
Nice read, thanks for putting this together. Our schedule is pretty packed (when isn't it?) but we will carve out some time to dig into balance further. Thanks in advance for your patience, since it never happens as fast as people want.
Yeah a year isn't enough time to rewrite a few stats we feel you. Just kidding. Or am I? Yes I am.

Bous
05-19-2014, 09:59 AM
@mightymicah
Nice pictures! Where did you get them? :P

Ks_Leon
05-19-2014, 10:24 AM
Yeah a year isn't enough time to rewrite a few stats we feel you. Just kidding. Or am I? Yes I am.

Lol.The code is not really easy to change.In fact,they busy with AL and AL coding things is not same as PL.So its may take awhile to balance PL.
#thinkpositive

programmed
05-19-2014, 11:06 AM
Its too much for me to read right now, I'll have to later but I can see you put an awful lot of work into it so nice job bro!

Samhayne
05-19-2014, 12:56 PM
Hey guys,

Just finished re-reading over lunch.

Trying to find a nice way to say this, but you're biting off too much. We're looking for specific changes, not rebalancing everything or making sweeping changes to how skills work. We all acknowledge that Pocket Legends balance is well, not very balanced. There are huge swings in power in the game. It was the Studios first mobile game and yeah, we've learned from that. That being said, we're not looking to go back and re-do skills from the ground up. Might as well get started on PL2, ya know?

So, can we pull this back to specific, end game things? Like nurf Savage sets by specifically taking X off them.

Thanks!

Samhayne
05-19-2014, 12:58 PM
I also moved the thread to the PvP section, since we are looking at specific, end game PvP issues, not the game as a whole.

MightyMicah
05-19-2014, 01:58 PM
I also moved the thread to the PvP section, since we are looking at specific, end game PvP issues, not the game as a whole.

Hmm gotcha. Well then honestly Samhayne, the biggest change needed is to cut off dodge. Cut it down on savage so that even with dodge buffs you can only get 40-50. I'd say you should do the same with crit keeping it's cap around 70-80 with buffs. If you remember correctly, that's about how you guys did it back in Sewer cap which was as balanced as the game has been so far.

If you want, you can compensate loss in dodge with extra armor and loss in crit for extra damage. All this will do is effectively reduce luck and increase skill because your Incomparables won't merely be able to be dodged all the time. Make sense? If you want, I can write up another thread going into the specifics of each set and what I'd recommend changing. Would that help? (Obviously I can't guarantee it would be perfect, but I do think I could get it pretty dang close, then you guys could take it from there ;) )

Jyuu1205
05-19-2014, 02:17 PM
Hey guys,

Just finished re-reading over lunch.

Trying to find a nice way to say this, but you're biting off too much. We're looking for specific changes, not rebalancing everything or making sweeping changes to how skills work. We all acknowledge that Pocket Legends balance is well, not very balanced. There are huge swings in power in the game. It was the Studios first mobile game and yeah, we've learned from that. That being said, we're not looking to go back and re-do skills from the ground up. Might as well get started on PL2, ya know?

So, can we pull this back to specific, end game things? Like nurf Savage sets by specifically taking X off them.

Thanks!

PL2 sounds like a good idea too but including endgame, you might as well as fix the low lvl pvp range too. Thanks!

Ks_Leon
05-19-2014, 03:15 PM
Hey guys,

Just finished re-reading over lunch.

Trying to find a nice way to say this, but you're biting off too much. We're looking for specific changes, not rebalancing everything or making sweeping changes to how skills work. We all acknowledge that Pocket Legends balance is well, not very balanced. There are huge swings in power in the game. It was the Studios first mobile game and yeah, we've learned from that. That being said, we're not looking to go back and re-do skills from the ground up. Might as well get started on PL2, ya know?

So, can we pull this back to specific, end game things? Like nurf Savage sets by specifically taking X off them.

Thanks!

Yeah i agree about started PL2.Yay New PL Party.

Tyranno-
05-19-2014, 03:37 PM
I'm in total agreement with you on reducing or capping dodge. It's unfortunate the way skills stack can't be simply nerfed to prevent bears gettiing ridiculously high dodge. That is, after all, the primary reason ppl choose bears and max dodge skills for pvp while ignoring slashes and rendering bears into less useful rhino-bears in pve.

I would welcome a huge reduction in dodge - even if it seems to cripple my pve-only bears. Skilled players will overcome such a nerf in dodge. At the very least it would make pvp bears a less attractive choice and require skill to play instead of buff-beckon-stomp only.

Id be happy for any nerf of savage that stems the polluting tide of bears that are absolutely unskilled in pve and overwhelming runs.

Fantastic work Micah. Thx for your efforts

Gaunab
05-19-2014, 04:23 PM
Micah, the amount of effort you put into this thread is impressive, a very good read. However, after reading through the entirety of it once, there are a few things I want to comment on.

Firstly, you got the mechanics of blinding shot wrong. If the skill is dodged the hit debuff is dodged as well. Just like every other debuff. This makes for a double gamble against bears. (Will blind hit?+Will beckon miss/get dodged).

Secondly, you need to broaden your perspective when trying to rebalance endgame PvP as a whole. I'm not trying to discredit your work but it seems like this was done from mainly a birds point of view. If a bears beckon couldn't be dodged he could beckonstomp everyone across the map (except if he was hit debuffed. Which would make it luckbased again.) Mages could freeze you literally forever, with icestorm and frostbite which have shorter recharge times than stomp/avian scream. same goes for double roots (slightly longer recharge tho). Being able to dodge those immobilising skills is a vital part of tanks especially bears who dont have the ability to heal.

And finally, it also seems like this wasn't written from an endgamers point of view. The 60+% hit debuffs are by no means good game design, which anyone who played as a str char at endgame could confirm.

I like some of the ideas tho, mainly the trade dodge->armor, and the scaling of health and mana. :)

I hope I don't come off too harsh, I'll try typing up something more constructive later, but I just felt like I had to put this out there.

MightyMicah
05-19-2014, 04:41 PM
Micah, the amount of effort you put into this thread is impressive, a very good read. However, after reading through the entirety of it once, there are a few things I want to comment on.

Firstly, you got the mechanics of blinding shot wrong. If the skill is dodged the hit debuff is dodged as well. Just like every other debuff. This makes for a double gamble against bears. (Will blind hit?+Will beckon miss/get dodged).

Secondly, you need to broaden your perspective when trying to rebalance endgame PvP as a whole. I'm not trying to discredit your work but it seems like this was done from mainly a birds point of view. If a bears beckon couldn't be dodged he could beckonstomp everyone across the map (except if he was hit debuffed. Which would make it luckbased again.) Mages could freeze you literally forever, with icestorm and frostbite which have shorter recharge times than stomp/avian scream. same goes for double roots (slightly longer recharge tho). Being able to dodge those immobilising skills is a vital part of tanks especially bears who dont have the ability to heal.

And finally, it also seems like this wasn't written from an endgamers point of view. The 60+% hit debuffs are by no means good game design, which anyone who played as a str char at endgame could confirm.

I like some of the ideas tho, mainly the trade dodge->armor, and the scaling of health and mana. :)

I hope I don't come off too harsh, I'll try typing up something more constructive later, but I just felt like I had to put this out there.

Yo, no problem at all! Constructive criticism is much welcomed.

First of all, actually you need to check again bro. You'll notice that after firing blind shot, whether it is dodged or not, the little yellow particle effects show up around the character indicating that they have been blinded. Hell scream doesn't work that way, but blind does.

Second, you do raise a valid point. Being crowd controlled to death can suck. However, it seems to me that every class can do so. Once bears draw you in, they can practically stun lock you. Birds could root you to death, and mages could freeze you. So as far as balance goes, every class will be doing fine. Also, I don't mean to insult you either but you seem to be approaching this from a bear's perspective. Most classes are not trying to just root you in place. In fact, birds and mages are most effective when kiting you around. Regardless, every class currently has access to at least one stun breaker, and if my ideas were implemented hit % could be debuffed enough to have a chance of the enemy missing. This would be perfect for bears who could have a guaranteed beckon followed by hell scream. In the end, I don't think we could speculate enough to form a solid conclusion which is why I mentioned minor tweaks after such an update being needed. Make sense?

Third, what I meant to say wasn't that the debuffs were perfect, but rather that the design of the debuffs were perfect. They simply haven't been carried out correctly. Also, part of the reason they aren't balanced is because everyone is sitting on roughly 100% hit due to their savage sets. Balance the savage sets and get people wearing their normal gear, and this shouldn't be an issue. If my ideas were carried out, I'd actually have savage's overall hit buffed by a decent amount. Perhaps 20-30 percent more. (In addition to the appropriate nerfs)

Gaunab
05-19-2014, 04:56 PM
First of all, actually you need to check again bro. You'll notice that after firing blind shot, whether it is dodged or not, the little yellow particle effects show up around the character indicating that they have been blinded. Hell scream doesn't work that way, but blind does.

Well, you see the animation of roots, ice, weakness/nightmare and even stuns as well when they are dodged. That doesn't mean they actually work. I've played as a bird for way too long to be wrong on this. .-.


EDIT: I guess you have this misconception because you mainly play at 51, where bears miss even when they dodge blind and mages almost never dodge. Rift bears and buffed birds (except for warbirds) are above 130 hit, so you wouldnt expect them to miss anyways. Thats what I ment by limited perspective. :s

Laar
05-19-2014, 04:57 PM
First of all, actually you need to check again bro. You'll notice that after firing blind shot, whether it is dodged or not, the little yellow particle effects show up around the character indicating that they have been blinded. Hell scream doesn't work that way, but blind does.

Well, you see the animation of roots, ice, weakness/nightmare and even stuns as well when they are dodged. That doesn't mean they actually work. I've played as a bird for way too long to be wrong on this. .-.
^^^ this. :)

MightyMicah
05-19-2014, 05:52 PM
Well, you see the animation of roots, ice, weakness/nightmare and even stuns as well when they are dodged. That doesn't mean they actually work. I've played as a bird for way too long to be wrong on this. .-.


EDIT: I guess you have this misconception because you mainly play at 51, where bears miss even when they dodge blind and mages almost never dodge. Rift bears and buffed birds (except for warbirds) are above 130 hit, so you wouldnt expect them to miss anyways. Thats what I ment by limited perspective. :s

Hmm you have a point. I'll have to look into this, for the longest time I thought it was as you say and then several people told me it was otherwise. I guess I'll find out.

Edit: After further testing, you're absolutely right! I stand corrected. I'm not exactly sure how I let myself get swindled into believing that. Thanks for the correction!

Depury
05-19-2014, 06:11 PM
Wow! You should consider a career as a newspaper writer, because you went very in-depth with this! I'm truly amazed.

XghostzX
05-19-2014, 07:29 PM
Awesome stuff Micah, thank you for being such a committed member of this community :)

MightyMicah
05-19-2014, 07:49 PM
Thanks guys! :D

Waug
05-20-2014, 06:21 AM
good try but -

There's hardly anything new and anything very presice that devs are looking for, in this big discussion there are very basic points that 'we' kept saying regarding balance I.e

armor isnot scaled with damage
dodge, crit, hit are insane in a point of view
etc

These points have been told by many times, if devs had the time to read posts they would get better points in a precise and workable form, but unfortunately they didn't have time and try to listen from someone who barely do endgame pvp.

By workable I meant something like this that devs expected -

savage's dodge should be less by this amount etc.

XghostzX
05-20-2014, 06:48 AM
good try but -

There's hardly anything new and anything very presice that devs are looking for, in this big discussion there are very basic points that 'we' kept saying regarding balance I.e

armor isnot scaled with damage
dodge, crit, hit are insane in a point of view
etc

These points have been told by many times, if devs had the time to read posts they would get better points in a precise and workable form, but unfortunately they didn't have time and try to listen from someone who barely do endgame pvp.

By workable I meant something like this that devs expected -

savage's dodge should be less by this amount etc.

I think that's because the general player-base for endgame isn't even sure if STS knows what they're doing anymore.

I think it's pathetic how we have to give STS exact numbers for their own game. Something is not right here... it should be enough that we tell them things like "dodge, Crit, Damage output on savage, etc" where they can go test for themselves. This proves to us that there other games have been left in the dumps.

This whole system is starting to be flawed. Micah, I know you love your community, but you don't need to work for them...

Waug
05-20-2014, 07:22 AM
its true, that its their game and they know it better but if u noticed their attitude toward balancing then its quite obvious that they r seeking exact numbers

techo said it cleary when they first tried to balace endhame
just g did this last time trying balance and now
sam doing this.

I personaly don't appericiate it rather they should listen the points and act according their knowledge on game mechanism.

I'm quite sure Sam also got inspired when micah said ppls r not proving data , then I noticed this thread also was not adequate from that perspective also the points raised by op was told many times and also there were many good points ppls raised over time that most probably devs did not read at all.

MightyMicah
05-20-2014, 08:25 AM
I think that's because the general player-base for endgame isn't even sure if STS knows what they're doing anymore.

I think it's pathetic how we have to give STS exact numbers for their own game. Something is not right here... it should be enough that we tell them things like "dodge, Crit, Damage output on savage, etc" where they can go test for themselves. This proves to us that there other games have been left in the dumps.

This whole system is starting to be flawed. Micah, I know you love your community, but you don't need to work for them...

Well if it means the game being balanced, I wouldn't mind putting in the time. I think it's kind of pathetic as well, but it is what it is. For the longest time people have asked STS if some players could help with testing and balancing. Well, it seems to me STS is willing to give us a chance, so I'm willing to take it.

To be honest, though, the big reason I made this thread was to demonstrate to STS that a simple, "Nerf X down to Y" wasn't going to address the issue, since the issue is deeper than merely statistical imbalance. However, correct statistics have been pretty balanced in the past, and still is at some levels so I figure even just statistical balancing might be a step in the right direction.

MightyMicah
05-20-2014, 08:28 AM
good try but -

There's hardly anything new and anything very presice that devs are looking for, in this big discussion there are very basic points that 'we' kept saying regarding balance I.e

armor isnot scaled with damage
dodge, crit, hit are insane in a point of view
etc

These points have been told by many times, if devs had the time to read posts they would get better points in a precise and workable form, but unfortunately they didn't have time and try to listen from someone who barely do endgame pvp.

By workable I meant something like this that devs expected -

savage's dodge should be less by this amount etc.

Did you even read my thread? Smh...

Hardcorexd
05-20-2014, 10:26 AM
Hmm gotcha. Well then honestly Samhayne, the biggest change needed is to cut off dodge. Cut it down on savage so that even with dodge buffs you can only get 40-50. I'd say you should do the same with crit keeping it's cap around 70-80 with buffs. If you remember correctly, that's about how you guys did it back in Sewer cap which was as balanced as the game has been so far.

If you want, you can compensate loss in dodge with extra armor and loss in crit for extra damage. All this will do is effectively reduce luck and increase skill because your Incomparables won't merely be able to be dodged all the time. Make sense? If you want, I can write up another thread going into the specifics of each set and what I'd recommend changing. Would that help? (Obviously I can't guarantee it would be perfect, but I do think I could get it pretty dang close, then you guys could take it from there ;) )

But u can't reduce it to 40-50 or everyone is gonna be dex bear ad it is insane cuz bear has only two skills to catch kiting char and without dodge they are dead meat

MightyMicah
05-20-2014, 11:03 AM
But u can't reduce it to 40-50 or everyone is gonna be dex bear ad it is insane cuz bear has only two skills to catch kiting char and without dodge they are dead meat

If 40-50 dodge isn't enough for you, you need to learn to play the game. If people go dex bear for the extra damage, they can mix and match some strength gear with dex to get the desired stats.

I think I'm going to write a thread about what stats should be changed on each set. I'd recommend saving your thoughts on what might happen until then. Try to approach balance with the mindset of, "What is fair, balanced, and requires skill?" Rather than, "Will this destroy my current build?"

Hardcorexd
05-20-2014, 11:07 AM
If 40-50 dodge isn't enough for you, you need to learn to play the game. If people go dex bear for the extra damage, they can mix and match some strength gear with dex to get the desired stats.

I think I'm going to write a thread about what stats should be changed on each set. I'd recommend saving your thoughts on what might happen until then. Try to approach balance with the mindset of, "What is fair, balanced, and requires skill?" Rather than, "Will this destroy my current build?"

I feel that bears them self are weak if it weren't for the dodge because there's only like one beckon to use in 56 to pull or root bird in 12m if u nerf savage set bear and buffed to 40-50, then don't even talk about the dodge in 56 it would become bears being eaten.

MightyMicah
05-20-2014, 11:11 AM
I feel that bears them self are weak if it weren't for the dodge because there's only like one beckon to use in 56 to pull or root bird in 12m if u nerf savage set bear and buffed to 40-50, then don't even talk about the dodge in 56 it would become bears being eaten.

At end game, loss in dodge will be compensated with extra armor and hp. If we modified 56 similar changes would be made, but currently 56 isn't being modified so you're good there.

Caiahar
05-20-2014, 06:08 PM
I feel that bears them self are weak if it weren't for the dodge because there's only like one beckon to use in 56 to pull or root bird in 12m if u nerf savage set bear and buffed to 40-50, then don't even talk about the dodge in 56 it would become bears being eaten.

Bears? WEAK? Nope.
You don't know what exactly you are talking about. Yes, generally, strength chars in many MMOs have a lot of dodge, but here it becomes insane. They aren't supposed to be high damaged with a ton of dodge. How do you think bears in the past did?

Hardcorexd
05-20-2014, 06:09 PM
Bears? WEAK? Nope.
You don't know what exactly you are talking about. Yes, generally, strength chars in many MMOs have a lot of dodge, but here it becomes insane. They aren't supposed to be high damaged with a ton of dodge. How do you think bears in the past did?

If a bear cannot hit beckon in 56 and no dodge they're weak I think the skills bear has is messed up

Caiahar
05-20-2014, 06:36 PM
If a bear cannot hit beckon in 56 and no dodge they're weak I think the skills bear has is messed up

Nope. Youre wrong.
Many classes, save for bird usually go to 8m range for many skills, letting the beat hit HS to come in. And usually good bears have a way of hitting beckon.
Also, did it say anywhere in this thread to remove the bears dodge completely? The bear should have a noticeable amount more dodge than other classes, it being str based class, but now its gone way too far.

Hardcorexd
05-20-2014, 06:42 PM
Nope. Youre wrong.
Many classes, save for bird usually go to 8m range for many skills, letting the beat hit HS to come in. And usually good bears have a way of hitting beckon.
Also, did it say anywhere in this thread to remove the bears dodge completely? The bear should have a noticeable amount more dodge than other classes, it being str based class, but now its gone way too far.

Wow please. There's no skill in beckon

Hardcorexd
05-20-2014, 06:44 PM
You guys are just looking at the 1vs1 side I think bear is fine it's just savage look at fiery mage in ctf when bird roots mage just simply triple kill and bird shat blast sometimes double sometimes triple while bears h's or blind=useless

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

angeldawn
05-20-2014, 09:50 PM
Micah
You put a lot of thought and effort into this tread and it's wonderful that you are trying to better the community.

However I find that it is sending out misinformation. Many of which has already been discussed and I don't need to reiterate.

I would like to see you spend some time at end game and see how that might change your thoughts or give you more insight.

MightyMicah
05-21-2014, 09:02 AM
Micah
You put a lot of thought and effort into this tread and it's wonderful that you are trying to better the community.

However I find that it is sending out misinformation. Many of which has already been discussed and I don't need to reiterate.

I would like to see you spend some time at end game and see how that might change your thoughts or give you more insight.

I appreciate it, and I understand. It seems I only understand what's wrong from a broad perspective on balance in general, and am in no place to be commenting on the particulars of end game. While I do think I have a few leads, it doesn't seem that it's enough for me to make any sweeping statements about balance particularly at end game.

Unfortunately, as much as I would love to put in the effort to trying out end game and dedicating time to a more useful balance thread, I just don't have the time at this point in life. Admittedly I'm already (only slightly) behind on a couple of assignments from the work I've put into this thread. As much as I'd like to help, I think I'll have to leave this job for someone else. I just don't have what it takes right now.

MightyMicah
05-21-2014, 09:13 AM
By the way, I re-edited my thread to remove the misleading information about hit percentage. To my knowledge now, it is completely accurate, but simply not specific enough to change anything without going to more drastic measures. Let me know if there's anything ya'll would still take issue with!

killinclaw
05-22-2014, 10:09 PM
Micah u truly did a great job, I salute u buddy! It was one of the best reads on here in a long time. Even though I don't really pvp to truely understand the indept mechanics like u and others, I do ctf a lot so I pick up a few things here and there. If I did have a suggestion on pvp balance, I'd take dodge of savage first. I don't mind at all being a savage bear. It is pretty high. Been pveing for 3 yrs, it's the best set to come along ever, but in pvp, ctf it pretty much is the defining flaw. To make it short, I do get wordy sometimes, my 3 suggestions to pvp balance is nerf savage dogde, give mages and birds more health, add it to int, fiery or dex, swift sets a bonus or something. I'd suggest 200 to 250. That way they stay alive longer. Bears has massive stuns to counter. Lasty, and yes of course, I agree on the crit reduction. Again, great work micah.

FFA
05-23-2014, 10:47 PM
Hey guys,

Just finished re-reading over lunch.

Trying to find a nice way to say this, but you're biting off too much. We're looking for specific changes, not rebalancing everything or making sweeping changes to how skills work. We all acknowledge that Pocket Legends balance is well, not very balanced. There are huge swings in power in the game. It was the Studios first mobile game and yeah, we've learned from that. That being said, we're not looking to go back and re-do skills from the ground up. Might as well get started on PL2, ya know?

So, can we pull this back to specific, end game things? Like nurf Savage sets by specifically taking X off them.

Thanks!
These are my suggestions on the sets, These stats are without any rings/buffs.
Savage set scythe set:
40 dodge.
300 armor
750 Health
200-250 Damage
45 crit unbuffed
Regen fine as is.

Fiery Wand set:
Hit% 150
10 dodge
275-300 damage
265 armor
450 health
Regen and crit are fine.

Swift Elite Bow set:
Hit %200
Crit 90
Dodge 15unbuffed 40 Buffed
501 Health
200 armor
375-400 Damage

These were just my suggestions, These could be changed a little but i think this would help the endgame PVP problems.

Timelife
05-24-2014, 09:20 AM
Hey guys,

Just finished re-reading over lunch.

Trying to find a nice way to say this, but you're biting off too much. We're looking for specific changes, not rebalancing everything or making sweeping changes to how skills work. We all acknowledge that Pocket Legends balance is well, not very balanced. There are huge swings in power in the game. It was the Studios first mobile game and yeah, we've learned from that. That being said, we're not looking to go back and re-do skills from the ground up. Might as well get started on PL2, ya know?

So, can we pull this back to specific, end game things? Like nurf Savage sets by specifically taking X off them.

Thanks!

if you guys were to make a PL2, that would be interesting.
and if you are able to combine that with the current PL server, that would be even better, so people wouldn't have to start from scratch again, basically the PL u guys are running at the moment, but then updated.

a few days ago, i have downloaded AL, and i must say if PL had the same content, it would be really AWESOME!
I liked the music of AL, and the map layouts are nice too, also the NPC's that actually move and talk are really cool, I wish PL was like this, it would make it the best MMORPG in my opinion althoug i'm not gonna spend my time on AL since i'll be supporting PL till the end, so if you guys ever plan on making a PL2 i would be pleased to play it!