Flawed buff/debuff mechanics.

[Madnex]

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- Is there one or more debuff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).
- Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).

Issue: Debuffs override buffs completely regardless of which (buff or debuff) is larger or which was applied first.

This concerns all three classes. Let's see what this practically means in some examples:

Example 1:
Warrior's Axe Throw's 25% armor debuff VS Shadow Veil's 20% armor buff.

The buff is overriden and the full debuff is applied like normal afterwards for a grand total of...

Total: -45% armor (from buffed state).

Example 2:
Aimed Shot's 15% armor debuff VS Shadow Veil's 20% armor buff.

Even while the 20% buff > 15% debuff, the debuff applies over the buff,cancelling it on the way. There is no 5% buff as you'd think, there's a full 15% debuff which means..

Total: -35% armor (from buffed state).

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More occassions where armor buffs are rendered useless:
-[Warrior] Axe Throw's 25% armor debuff.-[Arena/Nordr] Frostir's/Frozen Golems' (in the blue slowdown zone) 20% armor debuff.
-[Shuyal mobs] Shuyal demon dogs 10% armor debuff.
-[Tindirin boss] Arachna's 10% armor debuff from poison pools.
-[TDM/CTF] Numerous pets' passives that include armor debuff.



That's a pretty flawed logic if you ask me.

[flluby2]

Nice research. I never test things out, but my experience always told me those debuffs from enemies are deadlier than whatever buffs I had. And thus my dislike for scorn. Another mystery unraveled I supposed.

[Zeus]

This sort of logic also leads to your bread and butter builds that you have now. So, to create variety in builds, one should have the logic that Madnex is suggesting!

+1

PS: Ty for all the testing, it was fun!

[Madnex]

I'm out of thanks somehow? It was fun indeed Z! ;)


Something else that seems fitting to add here as I expect it to be of interest to a lot of rogues is that the incoming fix on Samael that has individual issues as a pet and currently doesn't offer any damage buff in nor PvE or PvP is going to show damage increase in PvE only.

Anyway, I hope this gets the proper attention so the required adjustments are made in a logical time window!

[Prahasit Prahi]

Oh no there is a deep explanation in this.......but with all these Debuff rogue used to kill everyone in PVP as now the stats are correctly visible...the final thing is

Rogue rocks.....Warrior might be king in PVE but Rogue are king in PVP. lol


~Prahi

[Serancha]

I don't know if this explains what you discovered, but I'm thinking it does. Info by null_void

91254

[Madnex]

Nice find Sera! Thanks! :)

Now that we have it confirmed, is there anything that's going to be done about it?

Is it working as intended because to me, this whole concept of debuffs overriding buffs of higher percents is plain wrong.

[Serancha]

Mr. Void was pretty clear that this is how it works. There was no comment about this being incorrect, so I believe it is intentional.


Note: this could also explain the pheonmenon being called a bug in pvp. If the damage reducer is considered a debuff by the system, it would logically cancel any damage buffs.

However, this was not the case in April when rav and I tested it. A 15% damage pet did indeed give 5% damage, implying that the class adjustments are not actually debuffs. The numbers are all posted on the thread in the general forum regarding % damage from kalizza's discovery.

This is why most of the things people are freaking out about, are no surprise to those of us who did the testing. We knew this stuff months ago.

[Madnex]

Yes, this is fundamentally wrong. I also did testing but had no idea about the extent of the findings and honestly I don't think anyone realized what they really meant until now - we were still under the belief that 10% damage nerf was class-global.

The most concerning and easily noticeable PvE results for this messed up mechanism are armor and speed debuffs, as far as I can tell. Well, I guess most people won't care as long as it doesn't mess their precious damage...

[Serancha]

Nerfing all classes the same amount in pvp would not be balancing it. It makes sense that some are reduced more than others (or even increased) in order to make an equal environment for all classes. Just my opinion though.

[Madnex]

Nerfing all classes the same amount in pvp would not be balancing it. It makes sense that some are reduced more than others (or even increased) in order to make an equal environment for all classes. Just my opinion though.
Why yes it would and that's what has happened too - I believe the 10% healing debuff is applied to all classes.

Lowering a specific statistic like healing will shorten the fight length long enough for the warrior not to have the same amount of time to wait for second Juggernaut cooldown, for example. In terms of raw healing power, the warrior comes last and that's why the difference is noticeable nowadays.

On the other hand, sorcerers never noticed it since they possess much less HP, refuse to spec STR and choose to maximize their INT which controls healing power. So there was practically no change for them there - you'd have to use uncharged healing to notice it's weakened effect and no one does that.

The difference for rogues is very small as well but another fact that made the transition unnoticeable is that no one uses combat medic on PvE and even if they did, it's been bugged to give 2x healing power per pack so the results are not helping at all.

[Madnex]

Regarding rogues who are using damage pets in PvP, the above means that the 10% damage nerf applied solely on the Rogue class is nullifying any and all damage buffs (pet damage buff, shadow veil damage buff, passive damage buff) when you enter a PvP room and also decreases your damage by 10% afterwards.

So for example let's say your damage with Flap Jack that has 15%damage buff, is 500. Upon entering PvP your damage buff will be nullified (500 - (15/100)*500 = 500 - 75) resulting in 425 damage. THEN, the 10% damage nerf kicks in, lowering your damage again (425 - (10/100)*425 = 425 - 42.5) resulting in a disheartening 382,5 final damage output.

[Dope]

Idk if my brain can comprehend all these algorithms.
But one thing is for certain, I use glacian,
No damage buff in the happiness bonus,
Being a lvl 8 twink in pvp ,
My dps is 70.9 in tdm
And 63.8 in ctf. with the same gear,
There both PvP. Clearly theres a issue going on here. And your guy's logic isn't making sense to me in this situation.
So im debuffed in only one playlist? thats fancy.

[Madnex]

Edited, refer to post one.

@Dope:
Still, CTF is clearly debuffing that DPS by 10% (70.9 - 7.09 = 63.8). So that confirms the above logic. :)

[Serancha]

Regarding rogues who are using damage pets in PvP, the above means that the 10% damage nerf applied solely on the Rogue class is nullifying any and all damage buffs (pet damage buff, shadow veil damage buff, passive damage buff) when you enter a PvP room and also decreases your damage by 10% afterwards.

So for example let's say your damage with Flap Jack that has 15%damage buff, is 500. Upon entering PvP your damage buff will be nullified (500 - (15/100)*500 = 500 - 75) resulting in 425 damage. THEN, the 10% damage nerf kicks in, lowering your damage again (425 - (10/100)*425 = 425 - 42.5) resulting in a disheartening 382,5 final damage output.

Well yes, of course this is the case. That is because 10% of the pet damage is never applied in the first place. All buffs/debuffs are calculated on your initial, unbuffed stats. Even if buffs stack, they don't buff a buff.

For example if you have a 50% xp buff and a 25% xp buff, they are both added on the initial naked xp value. The second buff does not add itself onto the buffed amount. If you have 100xp naked, and then add 50% xp buff, the 25% is not then calculated on 150, it is calculated on the initial value of 100.

So any reduction would be calculated based on your base damage, not your damage after the pet has been calculated.So it must be naked damge - 10%, not damage with 5% flapjack damage - 10%.

[Madnex]

There's no difference in the calculations, I simply worded it in another way to avoid some confusion and length. If you look again, I'm removing the full pet buff (15% in the above example) before reducing the damage by 10%. So yes, practically, all damage buffs for rogue are removed by entrance to PvP areas and then a 10% damage nerf applies.

[Dope]

UPDATE:
Looks like below L20 the damage debuff doesn't apply on TDM.

@Dope:
Still, CTF is clearly debuffing that DPS by 10% (70.9 - 7.09 = 63.8). So that confirms the above logic. :) I was aware of the debuff in ctf, what I was mentioning was why it's only ctf, kinda weird, if only levels under 20 aren't affected in Tdm,

[Madnex]

Beats me. I could swear the damage debuff applied on my L41 rogue in TDM when I originally tested - currently that's not the case though.

[Zeus]

Beats me. I could swear the damage debuff applied on my L41 rogue in TDM when I originally tested - currently that's not the case though.

You're not the only one, when I tested it was the same result but that is not the case anymore? I tested seconds after the client update though, I believe.

[Madnex]

I don't really get what's going on here, I retried just now and it's adjusted back to both CTF *and* TDM. This will be the third time I will be editing this statement about TDM - the heck is going on lol? I'll test on below L20 to make sure.

I'm starting to think the warrior's complaint on healing debuff coming and going per various updates holds some true..

[Serancha]

We know there's a lot of hidden things that go into these patches. Last I knew, you could see the pet damage in TDM but not CTF, although whether it actually was in effect is debatable. Probably all part of the "pvp balancing" act.

[Serancha]

Is this a display glitch Aspy, or for real?

[Madnex]

Is this a display glitch Aspy, or for real?
I sure hope so but we're supposedly able to see all our stats clearly now and so far that's been accurate. Are you getting the same results?

[Serancha]

I don't play chrome, but I can see my pet damage in TDM on ipad. Will have to check in ctf.

[Zeus]

I'll verify for all three devices later tonight for you, Asphy. :)

[Madnex]

I'll verify for all three devices later tonight for you, Asphy. :)
No one else panicking if this is true? Coooome on, I'm not the only one who TDM's solely on Chrome. Right guys? Guys? >_>

[Zeus]

No one else panicking if this is true? Coooome on, I'm not the only one who TDM's solely on Chrome. Right guys? Guys? >_>

I do!

So, on the contrary...Chrome users are disadvantaged? LOL :3

[Visiting]

Lol@pvp

[Madnex]

Lol@pvp
Pshh, this affects you too. Now get out there and verify it swab - and fast!

[Serancha]

Get counting nab. :P

[Zeus]

I checked on my computer and my in town stats were active in TDM as well.

OS: Windows 8.1 Enterprise

[Zeus]

Synopsis and test results of the issue that has arrisen to our attention can be found below.

Rogues:
-Android & iOS users have an unfair advantage comparing to Chrome users since in TDM, no damage debuff (10%) is applied to the first group.
-To make matters much worse, due to the currently flawed debuff mechanics, the difference between the two groups now goes well over 20% damage when using a pet with damage buff in its Happiness Bonus.

Warriors:
-Android & iOS users have an unfair disadvantage over Chrome users since in TDM, no damage buff (5%) is applied to the first group.
-There are no complications on this class pertaining the lack of the above buff.


It's most concerning to have to worry about what platform you play on to be on equal footing with the rest of the PvP players.

Can we get a dev confirm or at least look into this issue?

Thanks.

Have you figured out why I'm the outlier in this testing?

[Madnex]

Have you figured out why I'm the outlier in this testing?
Can you post your damage (with the same build/pet of course) from all your platforms on TDM? As for joining method, join randoms without being in a team.

[Madnex]

Latest bug report retracted. It needs specific requirements to be met in order to occur - not as major concern as I thought.

Debuffs literally decimating and canceling any and all rogue damage boosts in pvp issue is still queued to be fixed.

[Zynzyn]

Debuffs literally decimating and canceling any and all rogue damage boosts in pvp issue is still queued to be fixed.

Could a dev please clarify? Will cancellation of 'pet damage boost' for rogues in ctf be fixed and when?

[Madnex]

Could a dev please clarify? Will cancellation of 'pet damage boost' for rogues in ctf be fixed and when?

Thanks for the help! I'll check out what I can - I know that at least we will be looking into changing how buff/debuff stacking works.
It's confirmed, awaiting on a fix. :)

[Jexetta]

Amazing. Good research & very disconcerting results.

[Deathlyreaper]

Im just wondering if this whole issue has been resolved because its been a year :)

[Madnex]

Im just wondering if this whole issue has been resolved because its been a year :)
No, not yet. At the moment, anything new that is added which is affected by this debuff issue has been a workaround of sorts (eg. new shield buff for Ren'Gol orc mobs offers damage reduction instead of an armor buff that could be overridden, Stanlee's armor buff was replaced with raw armor increase, etc.).

To my understanding, it's a challenging bug to fix but they should be working on it.

[Deathlyreaper]

No, not yet. At the moment, anything new that is added which is affected by this debuff issue has been a workaround of sorts (eg. new shield buff for Ren'Gol orc mobs offers damage reduction instead of an armor buff that could be overridden, Stanlee's armor buff was replaced with raw armor increase, etc.).

To my understanding, it's a challenging bug to fix but they should be working on it.

Wait so is it only the armour buff thats the problem?? Or are there other debuff problems too?

[Madnex]

Wait so is it only the armour buff thats the problem?? Or are there other debuff problems too?
It's universal. Most complaints are focusing on how the permanent damage debuff in PvP for rogues is cancelling the damage buff from pets.

But, you can also use it to your advantage. For example, Shadow Veil's damage debuff keeps the Orc Brutes tamed all day. ;)

[Deathlyreaper]

Oh ok any other tips possibly a mage could use.

[Madnex]

Oh ok any other tips possibly a mage could use.
Well, there's Curse that could be viable (for new elites only) since we're looking at strengthened mob clusters with light density. Curse should also work well on the second boss, assuming the party members can survive hits and let the bleed DoT be reflected. 10% damage debuff should mean less one hits as well.

On a side-note, mages will be invaluable on the third map. Skilled mages, that is. ;)

[Zeus]

It's universal. Most complaints are focusing on how the permanent damage debuff in PvP for rogues is cancelling the damage buff from pets.

But, you can also use it to your advantage. For example, Shadow Veil's damage debuff keeps the Orc Brutes tamed all day. ;)

Shhh, people were asking why I was using veil for the new maps! :(

[Deathlyreaper]

Well, there's Curse that could be viable (for new elites only) since we're looking at strengthened mob clusters with light density. Curse should also work well on the second boss, assuming the party members can survive hits and let the bleed DoT be reflected. 10% damage debuff should mean less one hits as well.

On a side-note, mages will be invaluable on the third map. Skilled mages, that is. ;)

ok thanks for the info. 1 more question, does it work as well if instead of using ur skills that does debuff u use your pets aa instead that does armour debuff

[Madnex]

ok thanks for the info. 1 more question, does it work as well if instead of using ur skills that does debuff u use your pets aa instead that does armour debuff

It's the same effect no matter the source so yeah, it can be either skill or pet debuff.

[~PureUnity~]

I guess it's too complex of computer code to untangle.

[eugene9707]

I guess it's too complex of computer code to untangle.

i dont think it is .....

maybe its not as simple as i think, but from the mod's description, its an if else (if true then do this, else do that) statement.

They can just change it to an if statement inside the if else ....
to something like:
- Is there one or more debuff? If so:

- Is there also one or more buff? If so, use the lowest damage multiplier and use the highest damage multiplier on top of it (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff, a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff and a 1.2 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25*1.2 = 0.3). <--- i know it doesn't seem like much but if get a 75% debuff and then apply a 20% buff on it, it would turn out to be a 70% debuff( 200 damage, 75% debuff turn it into 50 damage, then apply the 20% buff on the 50 for 60 damage)

-If there is no buff, use the lowest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 0.5 damage multiplier debuff and a 0.25 damage multiplier debuff, this would result in a multiplier of 0.25).

- Otherwise, is there one or more buff? If so, use the highest damage multiplier (for example, if you have a 1.05 damage multiplier buff and a 1.25 damage multiplier buff, this would result in a multiplier of 1.25).


i guess the difficulty is to decide if all the buff/debuff apply to the original stat or the stat after previous buff/debuff ?
like 20% buff+20% debuff= 0%
or 20%buff+ 20% dubuff= 4% debuff (1.2*0.8+0.96)

[King Feris]

so... has this issue been fixed yet...?