Mob Scaling Findings: Higher Armour is not better

[Serancha]

Introduction

We all know mob difficulty scales both by player level and the number of players in the zone. It is widely accepted that a party of 3 is the most optimal for running most elite zones. (as relates to mob difficulty).

If you look at the leaderboard, you will notice that 90% of the time, there are no warriors on the speed run records.
If you are in a map with a rogue and a mage, and a warrior joins, have you ever noticed that it gets a lot harder? The run time increases? Have you ever wondered why Legendary and Arcane players can play the same maps without it being overly difficult for the first, and extremely easy for the second?

Well for the past 5 months I have been running tests and gathering data. These findings are consistent and conclusive. I welcome anyone to test for themselves. (Note: if you plan to test this, please do so on fully scaling maps - ie. not elite brackenridge - as the low level maps have stunted scaling that may skew results)



Summary of the testing results:
The amount of damage mobs deal and how hard they are to kill is scaled according to both the amount of armour you are wearing (number value) and the rarity level of your gear (epic, legendary, mythic, arcane).




First example: Attempting to get a mythic warrior his haunted ap last season.
We had a party of 4 and in 8 runs never managed to get faster than 1:38. I had the warrior remove his mythics and put on Hellish gear that I had available. The first run with him in the reduced armor, and we cleared the finish line at 1:26. The only thing that was different was his armor. Both the rarity and the number value were dropped significantly. This result was repeated with multiple parties.

Second example: A party of 4 in Elite Caves
This was an experienced farming team who knew the map well. Run times were always consistent (within 30 seconds). Once we had a solid base time done, we switched from mythic to legendary (Tarlok) gear. Even with the reduced damage of the legendary items on the entire party, our run times were exactly the same as when we were in full mythics.

Third Example: Solo hauntlet, no pet.
Hauntlet runs with mythics, mythic ring and talisman amulet yielded identical times as runs with tarloks with epic jewlery.
Using tarlok helm and magma armor caused death / near-death experiences.


Findings from a wide range and high number of solo tests:

Mobs hit significantly harder if you are wearing mythic or high-armour gear as opposed to normal Tarlok / Conquistador equipment.

Epic jewlery makes mob difficulty significantly lower than with mythic jewlery.

Mobs are much more difficult to kill if you are using high armour or high rarity gear (magmatic / mythic) as opposed to normal legendaries. (Conquistador / Tarlok). Example: I can one-combo kill the first witch in hauntlet in legendaries, but it usually takes an extra 2 hits in mythics.

The change in mob difficulty is so significant that it actually removes the whole damage benefit from using higher-end gear, allowing those in normal legendaries to do runs the same speed or even faster than those in full high-rarity gear.

Mixing and matching mythics and legendary is not usually great, since the only time Mythic can achieve the same run times as Legendary (with epic jewlery) is when the full set of mythics is used. If you use a partial set of mythics, you will find yourself taking a lot more damage and having more trouble killing the mobs.

To use mythic is only beneficial if all your protective gear is mythic. Using just a mythic ring or just a mythic amulet will increase the mob difficulty without increasing your damage or armor, making you need more pots and more hits to get through the map.


Conclusion:

A player wearing tarlok-like legendaries and epic jewlery will find most maps no more difficult (and in some cases easier) than running the same maps in full or partial mythics and/or magmatic gear.

The number value on armor directly affects the mob scales, meaning more armor = harder and slower runs. However you DO need high enough basic stats for survival. ie: you can not run with level 20 armor at level 41 and expect to survive. This is due to the basic scaling to character level that we are all aware of. High damage / medium # armor (like conquistador or tarlok) seem to be the best for optimizing mob difficulty.

Therefore, the new armor-heavy gear will only be useful in pvp where mob scaling is not in effect.

[Serancha]

Equipment Used for Testing:

Mythic armor & helm / upgraded 36 / full super fire gems
Tarlok of potency armor & helm / level 36 / normal fire gems
Magma doublet of will / level 40 / full super fire gems

Blood Ruby of Shuyal / level 31 / full super fire gems
Onyx loop of potency / level 41 / super fire gem

Fang of Fenrir / level 30 / 1 super fire gem / 2 normal fire gems
Wild Talisman of Potency / level 41 / full super fire gems
Gold Necklace of Potency / level 41 / super fire gem


Numbers are an average of multiple runs in each configuration.


Tinderin Wilds with Low level gyrm (Pet below level 20 so doing no damage)

Combo Elix Wilds Average times:

3:31 all mythic
3:46 - leg with mythic jewl
3:33 all legendary with epic ring
3:31 leg gear with epic jewlery
3:51 leg gear with magmatic armor and epic jewlery


Pure Wilds Average times:

4:05 Full Mythics
3:55 Tarloks with Epic Jewlery
4:08 Tarlok helm / Magma Armor / Epic Jewlery
4:12 Mythic helm / magma armor / mythic ring / talisman ammy

Stats for the 4 configs above:
94065


-- Mixed Gear

4:04 Mythic Helm / Tarlok Body / Epic Jewlery
4:12 Mythic Body / Tarlok Helm / Epic Jewlery
3:55 Mythic set / Epic Jewlery
3:55 Mythic set / Mythic Ring / Epic Amulet
3:59 Tarlok helm / Conquistador body / epic jewlery
4:30 Epic armor / epic helm / epic jewlery

Stat differences:
Blood Ruby / Onyx Loop of Potency
94066

Fang of Fenrir / Gold Necklace of Potency
94068

Tarlok of Potency / Conquistador of Potency
94069


Hauntlet Pure + Petless - Average Times

2:41 Mythic armor, helm, ring, talisman amulet
2:41 Tarlok armor, helm, epic ring and amulet
2:31 Tarlok helm, conquistador body, epic ring and amulet
3:15 (with 2 deaths) Tarlok helm / level 20 demonlord body / epic ring and amulet


Elite Caves party of 4

All runs whether mythic or legendary were between 14 and 14:30 (This was done close to the beginning of the season.)



Limits:

At level 41 mages and rogues can not go below 1000 armour, no matter what the damage is, due to the mob difficulty set by the character level. For example, a mage using 36 tarloks will not see a benefit over mythic because the armor is too low for survivability.

Using full epic (or common) armour / helm gives no benefit at all, nor does using poor quality (low damage) legendaries. This is because the damage drop on those items is higher than the item rarity mob variables. Note that the epic jewlery in the tests was the same (within 5) damage as the same items in mythic rarity.

[Maarkus]

Hi Serancha,
Thank you for this post... I was starting to think that as a warrior i was going crazy to think more armor doesnt help.
I dont have the statistics and indepth study that you have done but from my experience as a lvl41 warrior in PVE, excessive armor is not beneficial.
I have been lucky to have been able to use practically any gear i need to run PVE and after going thru a lot of gear and skill setups i have noticed that the magma gear options ingame though provides more armor and health does not help me at all in the runs... I still use my upgraded mythic sets, to be fair to most wars we all have our personal play style choice and so far going full tank isnt at all the best option in my opinion for lvl41 PVE runs.
So far the off-tank setting with atleast two skills with taunt and a balanced stat with gear that lean towards DPS and Crit for warriors at lvl41 PVE is the most effective that ive expericed so far.
I dont know if my post makes sense or helps much but in short i completely agree with you on this.
Thanks
-Maarkus

[Crowsfoot]

Really hope warriors don't misread this. I assume this relates to rogues only, testing wise.

Please do try to rephrase the abstract and conclusion to be more specific in the class tested.

---

If you are telling warriors as well that high armor is a bad idea, prepare for war.

[Serancha]

@ Marrkus

This is the reason warriors rarely get invited to runs anymore.

The focus on extreme armour levels is nothing but a detriment to the party. You need enough to survive, yes, but after that, the more you add, the harder the mobs are to kill and the slower the runs get. This is another reason sword/shield combos are frowned upon by farming teams.

So you are not insane, you were right all along!


@ Crowsfoot

Look at the example regarding the warrior getting haunted. This applies to all classes, especially warriors. And I am prepared. These tests have been 5 months in the making and included over 30 players to gather data.

[Crowsfoot]

@ Marrkus

This is the reason warriors rarely get invited to runs anymore.

The focus on extreme armour levels is nothing but a detriment to the party. You need enough to survive, yes, but after that, the more you add, the harder the mobs are to kill and the slower the runs get. This is another reason sword/shield combos are frowned upon by farming teams.


@ Crowsfoot

Look at the example regarding the warrior getting haunted. This applies to all classes, especially warriors. And I am prepared. These tests have been 5 months in the making and included over 30 players to gather data.
Any hard numbers? All I'm seeing is times to run the map.

My immediate assumption is that the higher damage caused faster runs because players were plat reviving. I know, for a fact, higher damage reduces damage in take and thus increases survival. Let me dig through my phone's notes to find my stats on damage in take.

[Serancha]

I suggest testing for yourself.

These run times are hard numbers, as they are the average of 30+ runs in each config. I don't understand what plat reviving would have to do with anything. We weren't dying.

Times are just as fast in quality legendary gear as in mythics for parties. Runs are faster when warriors are in survivable but not excessive amounts of armour. Faster = Easier and Better. That is a fact.


Note:

I should also add, that just because your 2200 armor makes YOU take less damage, it is also scaling the mobs up so your dps teammates are having to take more damage as well. Because things take longer to kill, your team has to sustain more hits, and therefore takes more overall damage.

[basketholic209]

Wow, after the damage % stacking thing (that was also found out by you, right?), I never expect to see another groundbreaking findings about a core mechanic of the game. Mind blown. Nice job, Serancha :)

[Serancha]

Damage stacking was Kalizza, but that contributed to this research. Thanks!

[Ardbeg]

Excellent Work, Thank You! This will Trigger a lot of Tests for Classes/Parties.
Now what to do with durable Passive again, Doom vs Wind Talisman, etc...
And it will be especially interesting to see, how the new Event Gear fits in the Picture.
We just learned to view the stats and Passives on a per Player, per class Basis, now we need to look again at it on a larger Scale, partywise for our Elite Runs.

[Doomreaper]

*sells magma gear and buys tarlok*


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Corrupt]

Crowsfoot, there is no need for you to take his observations personally, no matter how hard it may be for you to believe. It is not your job to defend sts when glitches are made public.
This does severely alter gameplay, however it is fixable. Perhaps when they originally coded AL they did not see such depth as necessary. Players use their application for hours a day everyday it is not illogical for them to notice flaws that the sts testers did not. You are supportive of AL but please do not let that blind you.
With positive feedback they are able to fix these bugs, no need to attack people who are merely trying to fix it.

[Anyona]

So you're basically saying owning a mythic/arcane weaps is pointless and we should all be using crate weaps?

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

[Serancha]

I am not certain about weapons. These tests were done for armour, helm and jewlery. We used the same weapons for all tests, to eliminate that variable. There's already so many variables that it took months to be sure of this much.

[Samhayne]

Hey guys, I will get null_void to poke into this on Monday. as far as I know, there isn't any scaling for Armor values, only number and level of your party.

[Serancha]

Thanks Sam,

Could you have him look at armor rarity also? Mythic doesn't give any apparent benefit over good legendaries, even though it has much more damage.

Appreciate it.

[Madnex]

Good job Sera! I was waiting for this one to pop up with all that background testing running.

Well, at least for rogues, the innate advantage of high-end gear is the insane critical/dodge rates which are starting to override damage/armor (criticals deal 50%+ extra damage, dodge 100% lower damage taken, in a sense). So in PvE that's the high geared rogue's advantage.


This applies to sorcerer's critical (arcane vs mythic is ~35 vs ~20) as well but it balances out with the insane damage gain (mythic mage can hope for 500-550 damage at best whilst arcane sorc is rocking 700+ (comparing with rogue where the damage difference mythic and arcane is ~520 to ~620).


But warriors? Lol, warriors seem the most cheated out on this system. So now we're basically telling them that higher armor they strived to reach --which is their main feature-- slows the whole team down. They can't really rely to damage either unless maxed out arcane. What about this class then? I know I've been skipping warrior invites in my elite runs and instead do the pulling/parking/aggro shifting myself - sure it's a few more deaths there and there but overall runs are much faster.

My personal experience with full arcane ring teams (minus my rogue nab) is that the the mobs are a lot harder to kill for a mythic player (me). Not sure if this extends to damage taken though.

[Azepeiete]

You cant base numbers off hauntlet because hauntlet times are more about skill and timing and luckthan gear. You can have a bad run in hauntlet and do 55s or a good run and do 51s. Huge diff

[Serancha]

It's not just based on hauntlet, but testing over a wide range of zones. I didn't include all the numbers because it would be an overwhelming amount of data. The fact remains, difficulty level goes way up when a high armour warrior joins, which is why they are rarely used especailly for speed runs, or even many farming runs.

[Rare]

I dunno, this is one of those things that I just can't believe. It makes no sense whatsoever that it would be the case. I'm not saying it isn't, I would just see it as a major major bug.

The whole point of getting better gear is to make things easier. Right?

[Ardbeg]

But warriors? Lol, warriors seem the most cheated out on this system. So now we're basically telling them that higher armor they strived to reach --which is their main feature-- slows the whole team down. They can't really rely to damage either unless maxed out arcane. What about this class then? I know I've been skipping warrior invites in my elite runs and instead do the pulling/parking/aggro shifting myself - sure it's a few more deaths there and there but overall runs are much faster.


Oh my, identity crisis in 10 - 9 - 8 - ....

[Madnex]

I dunno, this is one of those things that I just can't believe. It makes no sense whatsoever that it would be the case. I'm not saying it isn't, I would just see it as a major major bug.

The whole point of getting better gear is to make things easier. Right?
I agree but easier is not always synonymous with faster. So a 30 minute run with magma gear (high armor) could be conceived as "easier" than a 25 minute run with tarloks (high damage) because of how much easier you can die in the second case. Hence it'd make sense if such a logic was followed - not saying it's not flawed, it'd just make sense.

[Ishtmeet]

I totally agree with crow. This maybe TRUE with rogues or sorcerers, but my dear friend its not true for warriors. I have tested the difference between armour/hp/less- armour high hp/low hp -high armour. Haunted runs are just easy even without gear. Try a legendary tank in elite oltar, hall of valhiem , jagged trail or caves ,forest breach or forest of shades. Ask the tank to pull high number of mobs, maybe 7-8 spiders in tindrin or 7-8 archers/pigs in nor dr and 10+wolves in shuyal. See the duration of time, till he survives. With legendary gear , he won't even stand a chance in 12 + wolves in shuyal elite.
Aa per my observation.
Started off with the elite arachna boss. On his short ranged conical attack. He hits it twice.
First: magma set. 6000hp and 2200armour. His normal attacks were doing 4200-4300 damage without jugger. And he crits 5900+ with venge active. One can survive that with high armour.
Second : Mythic gear. 6300 hp, 1900 armour. Arachna was doing 4800-5200 damage in normal attacks and the second shot ,jus after that hard attack was killing almost every time. Then, the crit, crit is obviously over 6500+ aa he was one hitting me on crits.
2nd test at alagran Elite Recorded damages at that whim like pull.
With magma will gear:
6000hp 2200Armour. On the pull he did 3900-4300damage in normal attacks. With critical he did over 5500+ .( Everything tested with venge active and 10+ observations.)
Enraged: On the pull he did 5100+ damage. And with crit I can't measure, as he one hits while critting on enraged mode.
2nd: Mythic set. 6300+ hp 1900armour.
Normal: normally he did 4300-4700 damage and with critical over 5.5k+
Enraged: He did 5.3k+ damage on normal attacks in enraged mode. And again one hit death with critical.
That's what I tested few weeks ago and what crow said, you definitely need armour value to survive in elite. Its TRUE for warriors and IDC about rogues or mages. :)
If you don't believe, I can prove that in front of you.
thanks.


Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Serancha]

It's not about how much damage you individually take, it's that the mobs become harder to kill and also do more damage to your lesser-geared companions. Of course you will take less damage per hit when you are wearing more armour, that point is not in question. Your runs will also take longer, and mobs take longer to die, so you take more hits.

[Rare]

I agree but easier is not always synonymous with faster. So a 30 minute run with magma gear (high armor) could be conceived as "easier" than a 25 minute run with tarloks (high damage) because of how much easier you can die in the second case. Hence it'd make sense if such a logic was followed - not saying it's not flawed, it'd just make sense.

Just based on my logic, all other things being equal, having higher armor shouldn't be slower. It may not be faster by much (assuming you don't die) but it certainly shouldn't be slower. If it is, it isn't easier.

Then again, if they're are a number of different players in these tests, there are too many variables. Scientifically speaking, results from one team are really only relevant for that team. Unless you can prove members of the other teams are equivalent over a long period.

[Serancha]

Just based on my logic, all other things being equal, having higher armor shouldn't be slower. It may not be faster by much (assuming you don't die) but it certainly shouldn't be slower. If it is, it isn't easier.

This is the point of the topic. The devs said they will look into it, which is good. There is something amiss with mob scaling, so hopefully this will prompt action and sort it out. There are many variables involved, so it is possible that there is another factor affecting things, but whatever it is, we can only trust that null_void can find what's going on.

[Int]

Introduction

We all know mob difficulty scales both by player level and the number of players in the zone. It is widely accepted that a party of 3 is the most optimal for running most elite zones. (as relates to mob difficulty).

If you look at the leaderboard, you will notice that 90% of the time, there are no warriors on the speed run records.
If you are in a map with a rogue and a mage, and a warrior joins, have you ever noticed that it gets a lot harder? The run time increases? Have you ever wondered why Legendary and Arcane players can play the same maps without it being overly difficult for the first, and extremely easy for the second?

Well for the past 5 months I have been running tests and gathering data. These findings are consistent and conclusive. I welcome anyone to test for themselves. (Note: if you plan to test this, please do so on fully scaling maps - ie. not elite brackenridge - as the low level maps have stunted scaling that may skew results)



Summary of the testing results:
The amount of damage mobs deal and how hard they are to kill is scaled according to both the amount of armour you are wearing (number value) and the rarity level of your gear (epic, legendary, mythic, arcane).




First example: Attempting to get a mythic warrior his haunted ap last season.
We had a party of 4 and in 8 runs never managed to get faster than 1:38. I had the warrior remove his mythics and put on Hellish gear that I had available. The first run with him in the reduced armor, and we cleared the finish line at 1:26. The only thing that was different was his armor. Both the rarity and the number value were dropped significantly. This result was repeated with multiple parties.

Second example: A party of 4 in Elite Caves
This was an experienced farming team who knew the map well. Run times were always consistent (within 30 seconds). Once we had a solid base time done, we switched from mythic to legendary (Tarlok) gear. Even with the reduced damage of the legendary items on the entire party, our run times were exactly the same as when we were in full mythics.

Third Example: Solo hauntlet, no pet.
Hauntlet runs with mythics, mythic ring and talisman amulet yielded identical times as runs with tarloks with epic jewlery.
Using tarlok helm and magma armor caused death / near-death experiences.


Findings from a wide range and high number of solo tests:

Mobs hit significantly harder if you are wearing mythic or high-armour gear as opposed to normal Tarlok / Conquistador equipment.

Epic jewlery makes mob difficulty significantly lower than with mythic jewlery.

Mobs are much more difficult to kill if you are using high armour or high rarity gear (magmatic / mythic) as opposed to normal legendaries. (Conquistador / Tarlok). Example: I can one-combo kill the first witch in hauntlet in legendaries, but it usually takes an extra 2 hits in mythics.

The change in mob difficulty is so significant that it actually removes the whole damage benefit from using higher-end gear, allowing those in normal legendaries to do runs the same speed or even faster than those in full high-rarity gear.

Mixing and matching mythics and legendary is not usually great, since the only time Mythic can achieve the same run times as Legendary (with epic jewlery) is when the full set of mythics is used. If you use a partial set of mythics, you will find yourself taking a lot more damage and having more trouble killing the mobs.

To use mythic is only beneficial if all your protective gear is mythic. Using just a mythic ring or just a mythic amulet will increase the mob difficulty without increasing your damage or armor, making you need more pots and more hits to get through the map.


Conclusion:

A player wearing tarlok-like legendaries and epic jewlery will find most maps no more difficult (and in some cases easier) than running the same maps in full or partial mythics and/or magmatic gear.

The number value on armor directly affects the mob scales, meaning more armor = harder and slower runs. However you DO need high enough basic stats for survival. ie: you can not run with level 20 armor at level 41 and expect to survive. This is due to the basic scaling to character level that we are all aware of. High damage / medium # armor (like conquistador or tarlok) seem to be the best for optimizing mob difficulty.

Therefore, the new armor-heavy gear will only be useful in pvp where mob scaling is not in effect.

If this were true, I think a dev would make announcement of this. But I totally disagree with this. Only mob difficulty are changed depending on the number of players and the level of the players. In ER, not all of us are mythic players and people without mythics and wear legendary gear tend to have longer times completing elites than with mythics

[Ishtmeet]

It's not about how much damage you individually take, it's that the mobs become harder to kill and also do more damage to your lesser-geared companions. Of course you will take less damage per hit when you are wearing more armour, that point is not in question. Your runs will also take longer, and mobs take longer to die, so you take more hits.

Try arena with 3legend rogues nd then 3myth rogues.
P.S: why don't the people doing timed runs wear iron /gold /onyx ring of potency instead of rend tail dragon stone? Why dont they use Tarlok for timed runs?

[Serancha]

Please avoid trolling this thread. This is for information and discussion on the topic.

They were not leaderboard runs, but testing runs to work out what the issue is.

If the devs knew everything, they would not have been surprised by the damage % stacking findings Kalizza published 2 months ago. Any unusual finding in the mechanics of the game is worth bringing to attention so it can be looked at by the developers. There is clearly enough info here that Samhayne stated it would be looked into immediately.

[tharidom]

Nicely done:).

[Int]

Please avoid trolling this thread. This is for information and discussion on the topic.

They were not leaderboard runs, but testing runs to work out what the issue is.

If the devs knew everything, they would not have been surprised by the damage % stacking findings Kalizza published 2 months ago. Any unusual finding in the mechanics of the game is worth bringing to attention so it can be looked at by the developers. There is clearly enough info here that Samhayne stated it would be looked into immediately.

Well then again, some people knew there was a limit to the damage stacking factor but this Mob scale finding is a first. But we will have to wait and see what the dev will say about this

[Crowsfoot]

Data:

Trial 1: <1908 armor>
-lvl41 Magmatic Claymore of Will
-lvl41 Conquistador's Helm of Stability
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Plate of Force
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 95
2) 73
3) 85
4) 85
5) 73
6) 88
7) 93
8) 103
9) 84
10) 70
11) 84
12) 88
13) 83
14) 94
15) 82
16) 81
17) 95
18) 69
19) 69
20) 79

Trial 2: <1995 armor>
-lvl41 Magmatic Claymore of Will
-lvl41 Conquistador's Helm of Stability
-lvl36 Uller's Blazing Plate of Savvy
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 93
2) 80
3) 91
4) 73
5) 71
6) 68
7) 85
8) 79
9) 72
10) 62
11) 63
12) 67
13) 76
14) 80
15) 69
16) 78
17) 91
18) 64
19) 68
20) 92

Trial 3: <2025 armor>
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Wall of Potency
-lvl41 Conquistador's Helm of Stability
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Plate of Force
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 75
2) 73
3) 68
4) 60
5) 59
6) 76
7) 80
8) 67
9) 89
10) 64
11) 65
12) 86
13) 61
14) 78
15) 63
16) 88
17) 74
18) 86
19) 69
20) 71

Trial 4: <2036 armor>
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Wall of Potency
-lvl36 Uller's Resplendent Visage of Warfare
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Plate of Force
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 71
2) 74
3) 62
4) 74
5) 74
6) 72
7) 59
8) 72
9) 68
10) 67
11) 71
12) 62
13) 70
14) 63
15) 66
16) 60
17) 73
18) 67
19) 81
20) 66

Trial 5: <2112 armor>
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Wall of Potency
-lvl41 Conquistador's Helm of Stability
-lvl36 Uller's Blazing Plate of Savvy
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 63
2) 54
3) 55
4) 59
5) 52
6) 61
7) 68
8) 56
9) 60
10) 67
11) 61
12) 56
13) 63
14) 60
15) 62
16) 86
17) 60
18) 62
19) 86
20) 65

Trial 6: <2123 armor>
-lvl41 Magmatic Claymore of Will
-lvl36 Uller's Resplendent Visage of Warfare
-lvl36 Uller's Blazing Plate if Savvy
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 72
2) 63
3) 55
4) 58
5) 65
6) 52
7) 72
8) 66
9) 62
10) 65
11) 53
12) 59
13) 56
14) 54
15) 52
16) 57
17) 78
18) 53
19) 61
20) 65

Trial 7: <2153 armor>
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Wall of Potency
-lvl36 Uller's Resplendent Visage of Warfare
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Plate if Force
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 56
2) 63
3) 54
4) 75
5) 56
6) 56
7) 50
8) 82
9) 52
10) 53
11) 62
12) 67
13) 56
14) 56
15) 64
16) 60
17) 61
18) 61
19) 57
20) 61

Trial 8: <2204 armor>
-lvl41 Conquisatdor's Wall of Potency
-lvl36 Uller's Resplendent Visage of Warfare
-lvl36 Uller's Blazing Plate if Savvy
-lvl36 Archon Ring of Potency
-lvl41 Wild Talisman of Will
1) 49
2) 69
3) 53
4) 43
5) 44
6) 55
7) 54
8) 50
9) 50
10) 50
11) 64
12) 54
13) 52
14) 46
15) 51
16) 47
17) 61
18) 53
19) 52
20) 44

---

Reuslts:

Trial 1: <1908 armor>
Average damage intake = 83.65
Relative Error = 17

Anomalous figures:
Above = 1
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 82.63_
Difference: -1.02_

Trial 2: <1995 armor>
Average damage intake = 76.1
Relative Error = 15

Anomalous figures:
Above = 2
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 74.28_
Difference: -1.82_

Trial 3: <2025 armor>
Average damage intake = 72.6
Relative Error = 15

Anomalous figures:
Above = 2
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 70.83_
Difference: -1.77_

Trial 4: <2036 armor>
Average damage intake = 68.6
Relative Error = 11

Anomalous figures:
Above = 1
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 67.95_
Difference: -0.65_

Trial 5: <2112 armor>
Average damage intake = 62.8
Relative Error = 17

Anomalous figures:
Above = 2
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 60.22_
Difference: -2.58_

Trial 6: <2123 armor>
Average damage intake = 60.9
Relative Error = 13

Anomalous figures:
Above = 1
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 60
Difference: -0.9

Trial 7: <2153 armor>
Average damage intake = 59.9
Relative Error = 16

Anomalous figures:
Above = 1
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 58.95_
Difference: -0.95

Trial 8: <2204 armor>
Average damage intake = 52.05
Relative Error = 12.5

Anomalous figures:
Above = 1
Below = 0

Adapted Average: 51.16_
Difference: -0.89_

---

Precautions Taken:
-The same mob was used in every trial.
-No pet was used.
-Critical hits were not recorded.
-Dodges and misses were not recorded.
-Damage taken during an active buff were not recorded.
-All data points are collected from the same avatar's damage intake.

Biases:
-Dodges were neither accounted for or recorded.
-Warrior was the only class tested.
-Only one Avatar was tested.
-Avatar used has 5/5 (+5%) passive armor.

[Crowsfoot]

Reserved for damage output testing.

I just spent a half hour collecting data and another hour and a half running the numbers. Sue me for not finishing all this junk today. The waves are great and I'm going surfing ✌

[Crowsfoot]

Reserved, just in case (graph if I'm nsot lazy. I just realized I didn't plug the data into quick office so I don't have a spread sheet set up yet)

[Avaree]

Please avoid trolling this thread. This is for information and discussion on the topic.

They were not leaderboard runs, but testing runs to work out what the issue is.

If the devs knew everything, they would not have been surprised by the damage % stacking findings Kalizza published 2 months ago. Any unusual finding in the mechanics of the game is worth bringing to attention so it can be looked at by the developers. There is clearly enough info here that Samhayne stated it would be looked into immediately.

Serancha thanks for this article. I am thankful you took the time to research this, as many of us don't have the time. I have questioned similar things as well, and noticed what some would call under geared players do well in maps I didn't expect them to complete. I am very interested to to hear back from the devs. on their findings :) btw love my talisman of pot :)


Ava

[Madnex]

The point is to find a good balance; as Maarkus --great tank-- said, excessive armor stops being a plus after a certain point and starts affecting the run negatively by slowing it down.

@Ish
This doesn't mean all tanks should just strip the Magma gear off and throw it as fire charcoal, it means that having specific gear setups for specific cases works much more efficiently. Hence Loadouts in your inventory.

So for your example, if you dislike dodging those red zones on say, Arachna, then you can swap to Magma gear when you get there. The rest of the run can be done in mythics for faster results - where pulls are smaller and damage taken is broken down to parts, assuming you tank correctly and don't overpull.

12 demondogs/wolves will kill anything and anyone if the party can't support the warrior back anyway, regardless if armor is 1900 or 2200.


@Crow
You might be missing the point bud. I don't think the focal point is the warrior damage intake; of course higher armor equals less damage taken. The point is if this extreme armor is really needed and if mob armor does actually scale accordingly with gear armor --similarly to difficulty set by level average. Hence the hard numbers were times and not damage figures. :)

[Ardbeg]

Try arena with 3legend rogues nd then 3myth rogues.
P.S: why don't the people doing timed runs wear iron /gold /onyx ring of potency instead of rend tail dragon stone? Why dont they use Tarlok for timed runs?

we need to understand the mechanics to make the best use of it. We all thought for a long time dmg buffs would stack and were proven wrong. serancha fixed in her test runs all but the armor value to rule out other influences.
that s a good systematic approach and her collected data are good enough for stg to look into this, which we all should really appreciate. because if the elite level scaling is somehow biased too hard towards the (party) armor value, this would have big implications for the usefulness of the upcoming event gear.

[Serancha]

Crow, thank you for the numbers, but I think you misunderstood. I am not disputing that you, as a warrior, take less damage with higher armour, but that the mobs become harder to kill, and other players in the party find it more difficult.


Edit:

Here's the basic issue. I have tested multiple zones and countless runs with the 2 configurations below. Given the mythic setup has 42 more damage, the performance should be substantially better on all counts using that set. However, in every trial the 2 sets resulted in equal times (+-5 seconds). With 40 more damage, the mythic should be showing consistently as the better of the two, but it is not. So something is bugged, and this is a pattern seen across all classes.

94078

[Crowsfoot]

The point is to find a good balance; as Maarkus --great tank-- said, excessive armor stops being a plus after a certain point and starts affecting the run negatively by slowing it down.

@Ish
This doesn't mean all tanks should just strip the Magma gear off and throw it as fire charcoal, it means that having specific gear setups for specific cases works much more efficiently. Hence Loadouts in your inventory.

So for your example, if you dislike dodging those red zones on say, Arachna, then you can swap to Magma gear when you get there. The rest of the run can be done in mythics for faster results - where pulls are smaller and damage taken is broken down to parts, assuming you tank correctly and don't overpull.

12 demondogs/wolves will kill anything and anyone if the party can't support the warrior back anyway, regardless if armor is 1900 or 2200.


@Crow
You might be missing the point bud. I don't think the focal point is the warrior damage intake; of course higher armor equals less damage taken. The point is if this extreme armor is really needed and if mob armor does actually scale accordingly with gear armor --similarly to difficulty set by level average. Hence the hard numbers were times and not damage figures. :)
Hence the reserved post for damage output and the second reserved for a graph :) I'm really ticked I didn't save my old data on this from my old phone so chill the eff out before you say I missed the point. I'm a third if the way done on so ething I have already done and not happy about it. But, I will do it because I dislike false information more.

The time to run a map is not a good test variable since it has hundreds of independent variable. My testing has 1 for each factor which allows a PROPER regression graph.

[Crowsfoot]

Crow, thank you for the numbers, but I think you misunderstood. I am not disputing that you, as a warrior, take less damage with higher armour, but that the mobs become harder to kill, and other players in the party find it more difficult.
Read my reserved explanations please

[Crowsfoot]

Just saying, I'm pretty damn proud of those data points. The accuracy of the averages are all, but one, within the excellent range and all anomalous figure counts are 10% or below.

And, I swear, if I get one more "you missed the point" when I'm not even done yet; I will flip this table. Now, off to surf ✌

[Madnex]

Lol, take it easy. >_>

I'm just unsure how verifying the armor increases retracting from damage taken as warrior is related to what the OP is pointing at. We'll need to take a look from the rest of the party members' perspective, if anything.

[Rare]

Crow, thank you for the numbers, but I think you misunderstood. I am not disputing that you, as a warrior, take less damage with higher armour, but that the mobs become harder to kill, and other players in the party find it more difficult.


Edit:

Here's the basic issue. I have tested multiple zones and countless runs with the 2 configurations below. Given the mythic setup has 42 more damage, the performance should be substantially better on all counts using that set. However, in every trial the 2 sets resulted in equal times (+-5 seconds). With 40 more damage, the mythic should be showing consistently as the better of the two, but it is not. So something is bugged, and this is a pattern seen across all classes.

94078

Either that, or damage isn't add important as we think

[GoodSyntax]

Curious. I've always felt that rogue/sorc parties seemed to complete faster; albeit at far greater risk to the party members.

I will do some testing on Monday.

Grats! This is terrific research!

Now, does this apply to solo rogues? So if I equip magma, mythic, tarlok, conq and a perhaps architect sets I should see the mobs have progressively lower HP? I'm just trying to determine what the premise is for testing purposes.

[Serancha]

Curious. I've always felt that rogue/sorc parties seemed to complete faster; albeit at far greater risk to the party members.

I will do some testing on Monday.

Grats! This is terrific research!

Now, does this apply to solo rogues? So if I equip magma, mythus, tarlok, conq and a perhaps architect sets I should see the mobs have progressively lower HP? I'm just trying to determine what the premise is for testing purposes.

Thanks Kali,

That's the part I am not sure of. Whether they have lower armor, lower health, or what the deal is. The single mob tests were inconclusive, mostly due to the amount of time they take, but the overall effect whether solo or in a party is noticable. I was hoping you'd jump in on this and help fill in some of the things I was unable to work out. Give me a shout on Monday. I can toss you my testing gear if you want, since I structured it to eliminate as many variables as possible.

[Anyona]

I don't think your tests are accurate enough. You should have tested different weapons. It seems like the less damage the whole party has, the less health the mobs do.

Since buying my Orbital i've noticed how i'm still being hit the same, snakes are still doing 2k without shield just like using my expedition gun. My armor has increased by 20ish points and my armor by only 41. It seems like damage is what is making mobs hit harder and have more health, not armor.

By testing the weapons used you'll be able to get better results. Try testing and expedition brutality vs potency, you'll be able to see if damage is something which makes mobs harder.

As well, if only one player is running high armor they are less likely to aggro the mobs if they are a rogue/mage so this is why you may seem to be taking more damage than running with a full mythic party.

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

[Raregem]

You cant base numbers off hauntlet because hauntlet times are more about skill and timing and luckthan gear. You can have a bad run in hauntlet and do 55s or a good run and do 51s. Huge diff

I was on that hauntlet run with Sera, and we did not do anything different in regards to strategy or change out our team. We made several attempts to get the ap and were consistent with the end time within 1-2 seconds. The very first run that we had the warrior switch out to hellish we were able to complete almost 15 seconds faster using the same party and the same strategy we had the whole time.

[uriraran]

This is so far the best post in AL history, if it is proved to be true by STS. You deserve a free crane ring.

[Ishtmeet]

Ok here is my detailed verification after you posted thread. First of all, if someone is opposing your thread, it doesn't mean that I'm trolling. Different people have different thinkings. And what I was thinking was absolutely right. As you said, mobs hp/armour is proportional to the armour we are wearing. And I think, mobs have the same hp/armour and is independent of the armour values of party members.
So as you said, I tried 2 tests on a simple elite brackenridge forest mob. First, wearing mythic set with 2000+ armour and damage is about 301. Using damage kit in both the cases. So with 301 damage and 2k armour I hit mob with charged primary attack 8 times and noted down values. There are screen shots:
940849408594086940879408894089940909409194092
So this was with 2k armour.
Then I tested it without armour. And tried to reach the same damage what I had with myth gear. Used goblin glaive of potency and the closest damage I made was 295. Its quite close. And tested again, with charged goblin glaives for 8 times. Here are the results:
9409394094940959409694097940989409994100
These were the damage output done by me with 295 damage. Skill damage varies a lot, that's why charging primary weapon is the most efficient and accurate way to test it.
Ok the results are as listed below.
With 2000+ armour, and 301 damage, Damage output was:
1) 518
2)517
3)525
4)551
5)540
6)511
7)502
8)522
Total damage done with 2k+ armour is 4186 and the average damage done is 523.25.
With 40 armour and 296 damage, the damage output was as given below:
1)505
2)509
3)584
4)559
5)555
6)496
7)587
8)579
Total damage done with 40+ armour is 4374 and the average damage is 546.75.
According to these observation, difference of 20 is not much at all. Hence. I can end up saying that the mobs have fixed hp and armour and it doesn't matter what armour value you have.
Correct me if I'm wrong somewhere.

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Serancha]

Low level maps don't scale.

[Ardbeg]

a brief summary for all new readers:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/29/uduhypyr.jpg

[Ishtmeet]

Low level maps don't scale.

Lol why?
I am in my holidays, no worries. I'll be doing this in elite tindrin and provide you with the results. :)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Avaree]

a brief summary for all new readers:

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/29/uduhypyr.jpg


Well said lol

[Serancha]

I don't think your tests are accurate enough. You should have tested different weapons. It seems like the less damage the whole party has, the less health the mobs do.

Since buying my Orbital i've noticed how i'm still being hit the same, snakes are still doing 2k without shield just like using my expedition gun. My armor has increased by 20ish points and my armor by only 41. It seems like damage is what is making mobs hit harder and have more health, not armor.

By testing the weapons used you'll be able to get better results. Try testing and expedition brutality vs potency, you'll be able to see if damage is something which makes mobs harder.

As well, if only one player is running high armor they are less likely to aggro the mobs if they are a rogue/mage so this is why you may seem to be taking more damage than running with a full mythic party.

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

There is so much data involved that it is impossible for one person to gather it all. It would take years. The reason I posted at this time was because of the new armour-based gear coming out. If there is an issue with scaling, it need looking at. There is enough data to show a pattern that doesn't match logic. By posting what I have found to date with the help of my guild, I am opening this up to the other players who are good at testing game mechanics.

I wasn't going to waste people's time by posting it before I had a decent data set. I also am not making this a full time job. I do not have ALL the data possible, which means now others can participate and we can get a more conclusive picture of the situation.

I do not claim everything I posted is 100% correct, I am stating that these are things showing in an ongoing, game-wide pattern seen by numerous players. If there is a bug involved, the devs need to look at it. If there is no bug, we need to rethink the way we structure our gear loadouts. Either way we need more data, and I don't have the time or patience to do it all myself.

[Avaree]

There is so much data involved that it is impossible for one person to gather it all. It would take years. The reason I posted at this time was because of the new armour-based gear coming out. If there is an issue with scaling, it need looking at. There is enough data to show a pattern that doesn't match logic. By posting what I have found to date with the help of my guild, I am opening this up to the other players who are good at testing game mechanics.

I wasn't going to waste people's time by posting it before I had a decent data set. I also am not making this a full time job. I do not have ALL the data possible, which means now others can participate and we can get a more conclusive picture of the situation.

I do not claim everything I posted is 100% correct, I am stating that these are things showing in an ongoing, game-wide pattern seen by numerous players. If there is a bug involved, the devs need to look at it. If there is no bug, we need to rethink the way we structure our gear loadouts. Either way we need more data, and I don't have the time or patience to do it all myself.


Sera, your first post sparked interest from devs, obviously you have something worthy of being checked out :) thanks again !

[Crowsfoot]

What you have to prove is that either:

A: Armor doesn't correlate directly to damage intake.

Or

B: Damage/DPS doesn't correlate directly to damage output.

The latter is harder to test since it has two variables and will likely take me 5+ hours to do both the testing and analysis of (assuming I do 8 trials, which I will). Time is not a valid dependent variable for your claim since it has hundreds of variables. I have a sneaking suspicion that the result will be that skill is more important than gear (shocker) and that you were more focused with weaker gear due to the game being more demanding.

PS: such notes as "over months" and "30+ people" are not helping your cause in my opinion since that makes your testing impossible to replicate.

[Serancha]

As I said, it's impossible for one person to test everything. I work 70 hours a week. A lot of my guild members participated in this, as we have an entire forum section dedicated to proper research techniques and information gathering.

I don't have a "cause" to help. There is something unusual so I am putting it out there for other people to look at, including the devs. I did not post this to get into some sort of war with you, nor did I post it to antagonize speed runners. I posted it in hopes of getting more information on a topic that has been of interest to many people for a long time.

[Crowsfoot]

Lol, take it easy. >_>

I'm just unsure how verifying the armor increases retracting from damage taken as warrior is related to what the OP is pointing at. We'll need to take a look from the rest of the party members' perspective, if anything.
If armor effects damage intake as well as output, then either armor or damage/DPS will not correlate directly to their intended purpose.

Again, time is not a valid dependent varianpble sine there are hundreds of variables that effect a run.

[Ardbeg]

The later is harder to test since it has two variables and will likely take me 5+ hours to do both the testing and analysis of (assuming I do 8 trials, which I will). Time is not a valid dependent variable for your claim since it has hundreds of variables. I have a sneaking suspicion that the result will be that skill is more important than gear (shocker) and that you were more focused with weaker gear due to the game being more demanding.




Since Sam already stated Devs will look into this, why not just enjoy the Weekend and wait what they come up with? We have Summer, Soccer WM, and the Big Event is near, let s all take a Rest!

[Anyona]

There is so much data involved that it is impossible for one person to gather it all. It would take years. The reason I posted at this time was because of the new armour-based gear coming out. If there is an issue with scaling, it need looking at. There is enough data to show a pattern that doesn't match logic. By posting what I have found to date with the help of my guild, I am opening this up to the other players who are good at testing game mechanics.

I wasn't going to waste people's time by posting it before I had a decent data set. I also am not making this a full time job. I do not have ALL the data possible, which means now others can participate and we can get a more conclusive picture of the situation.

I do not claim everything I posted is 100% correct, I am stating that these are things showing in an ongoing, game-wide pattern seen by numerous players. If there is a bug involved, the devs need to look at it. If there is no bug, we need to rethink the way we structure our gear loadouts. Either way we need more data, and I don't have the time or patience to do it all myself.

I believe that damage has something to do with mob damage and hp. Try using different weapons and go into a tindirin map and see if you are being hit harder. If my theory is correct a mage with an expedidtion gun will be hit less than a mage with an arcane staff.

All gears should be the same and no pet used. I think armor has nothing to do with it, you have proved that tarlok in tindirin is about the same time as mythics bit you haven't thought that the large damage increase may have something to do with mobs hp/damage.

Think about it, less damage = less mob damage but the same damage when using mythics. 450 dmg 1100 armor vs 520 dmg 1363 armor, try gettting somewhere around 450 dmg whilst having mythics equipped and you should be able to determine if damage is the most important factor which decides the mobs hp and dmg dealt.

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

[Avaree]

Since Sam already stated Devs will look into this, why not just enjoy the Weekend and wait what they come up with? We have Summer, Soccer WM, and the Big Event is near, let s all take a Rest!

Cheers!

[Corrupt]

crowsfeet why so mad? You act as if Sera insulted you directly. The devs noticed/ commented and are investigating, therefore Sera was successful in her mission. You mad?

[Ishtmeet]

Sera,
Low lv elites don't scale up. Okay agreed. Now tested it with 12 observations each and this time the result is even more close!
Elite jagged trail, best place to find a solo mob to test something on.
First try:360 damage 775 armour.
Screen shots:
94116

94104941059410694107941089410994110941119411294113 94114
2nd try :355 dmg 2005 armour.
Screen shots.
94129
94117941189411994120941219412294122941239412494125 9412694128
These were the screen shots.
Mathematical analysis.
Damage done by 775armour and 360damage
282
282
299
326
320
281
293
283
326
277
278
299
overall damage done= 3556
Average damage done= 296.33

Damage done by 2005 armour and 355 damage
305
278
299
311
289
286
300
314
276
287
296
278
Total damage done = 3518
Average damage done= 293.16

So, just 3 average damage difference is not a big deal at all. Now I'm pretty sure, the damage done is how much damage you have instead of what gear or armour value you have. If, I am again wrong correct me.
Gave you proof again. Let's wait for devs reply. :)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Serancha]

Any input provided can be helpful. In the interest of keeping things from turning into a contest or battle of data, I will leave any further info for the developers to handle when they investigate this issue.

Thank you all for participating in this very interesting conversation, and thank you to STS for your continued excellence in all matters technical.

[Crowsfoot]

I don't understand the "Battle of data" portion. Although he used small sample size and didnt account for error, Ish's data should show a much larger difference in damage output than shown based on the OP's claim. His screen shots cover any disputes over him fudging the data with buffs. I have no plans to do my testing unless someone has a hard issue with his.

Thanks for saving me time Ish!

[Crowsfoot]

crowsfeet why so mad? You act as if Sera insulted you directly. The devs noticed/ commented and are investigating, therefore Sera was successful in her mission. You mad?
I was frustrated with myself for losing my already recorded results (along with hundred of notes on things more important to me than AL which I am very concerned with the location of). Beyond that, within 5 minutes of posting the data I worked very hard to gather and translate into something useful, I was shot down as "misunderstanding the point" event though I noted that testing was only half way (if that) complete.

I was also annoyed that my critique of time being the dependent variable was entirely ignored (still hasn't been adressed) instead of disputed while my hard numbers "missed the point." I hit some breaks and chilled out. All good here.

Edit: it was some what addressed. However, testing with 30+ people over multiple months instead of a controlled group under defined circumstances just exemplifies why I think time is an unfit dependent variable for testing a causation between armor and damage output et prevae vice versa.

[Ardbeg]

I don't understand the "Battle of data" portion. Although he used small sample size and didnt account for error, Ish's data should show a much larger difference in damage output than shown based on the OP's claim. His screen shots cover any disputes over him fudging the data with buffs. I have no plans to do my testing unless someone has a hard issue with his.

Thanks for saving me time Ish!

but but but shouldn t this have been tested in a party, according to seranchas original hypothesis/observation? how are these results related to her findings and statements? she observed and investigated the scaling for *parties*. timed runs may or may not be the best tool, but the provided data from ish are from a *single player* test.
i m with serancha here, just let the data flood end and the devs have look at it!

[Ishtmeet]

I don't understand the "Battle of data" portion. Although he used small sample size and didnt account for error, Ish's data should show a much larger difference in damage output than shown based on the OP's claim. His screen shots cover any disputes over him fudging the data with buffs. I have no plans to do my testing unless someone has a hard issue with his.

Thanks for saving me time Ish!

Np at all. I used a non-buff build. Used juggernaut sometimes, because that mob was hitting me hard without armour. Juggernaut increases the hp, not str! So no extra damage was there and I even had damage elix all the time for keeping things fair. ;)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Crowsfoot]

but but but shouldn t this have been tested in a party, according to seranchas original hypothesis/observation? how are these results related to her findings and statements? she observed and investigated the scaling for *parties*. timed runs may or may not be the best tool, but the provided data from ish are from a *single player* test.
i m with serancha here, just let the data flood end and the devs have look at it!
What figures has she provided?

Faster, better, less. There are no numbers.

Am I suppose to fill a party of four and a party of three and repeat my testing? Fine, party me up. There should be no difference whether the entire party has higher or lower armor. Give me one variable to test.

Speed is an impractical dependent variable. Beyond that, not a single time has been provided. I will take Ish' over hers simply because his is defined, uses a distinct methid, and is replicable.

Sera's is a deja vu of Nikola Tesla's earthquake machine. We here there was a test and that the results are huge, spectacular, earth shattering. But, we can't test it, observe the testing, or have any figures from it.

PS: his "earthquake machine" was finally rebuilt by his specifications with less than spectacular results. It was likely a publicity stunt by him to gain funds for his floundering wireless electrical transmission studies (I am not saying that Serancha was doing a publicity stunt. The only point in cluding this is to show that an experiment without hard numbers is rarely accurate).

[Bigboyblue]

Did you re enter the map with your different gear sets Ish? I believe that mobs scale to whatever stats your toon has upon entrance.

Also, Sera has stated that she isn't sure what causes runs to take longer. If damage remains constant it is possible that hp increases on mobs. This will slow down your run the same as it would with the same hp and less damage.

Very interesting thread. I always felt in my mind that running with mythic gear never really helped me. Legendary gear worked just as well.

[Milan Lame Man]

Ok so I did some testing on my own, sadly it's somewhat hard to find a partner for tests, so most tests are solo only.
ENEMY HEALTH


toon
elite jarl's mob
elite jarl
reg overgrowth


half myth rogue (1363 armor+lepre)
9003-9006

27-30k


legend rogue (1095 armor+lepre)
8840-9071
33364-33597
27-29k


half myth sorc (1022 armor+lepre)
8871-9157
32777-34000



legend sorc (all gear lv36, 856 armor)
8812-9096
33227-33500
~27k


Conclusion: enemy health probably does not scale with gear.
Note: I have measured Overgrowth with a party of 2, resulting in the same health, but the test may be invalid because the other player joined late and Overgrowth does not seem to reset properly.

ENEMY DAMAGE


toon
reg Tindirin archer
dmg/(1-armor/41)


half myth rogue (armor 1363)
267-400
400-600


legend rogue (armor 1095)
284-438
387-597


myth sorc+lepre (armor 1022)
291-447
387-595


legend sorc, no lep (armor 856)
306-475
387-600


2 myth rogues (armor 1363)
291-439
436-659


Conclusions:
- Enemy damage does not scale with armor rarity.
- Enemy damage is consistent with damage_dealt=damage_base*(1-armor/level) for maps that scale
- Enemy damage slightly increases for a party of 2 over solo.

About testing:
- Mobs and jarl's health was measured twice by adding flying numbers, without pet.
- Overgrowth was only measured once with each toon, with added estimate of damage dealt by pet.
- Mobs damage is measured using min-max as it seems to give more consistent results than average (thanks go to Fluff for inventing this method).
- When testing legendary gear, mythics were moved to another toon on the same account.
Thanks to Serancha and Amazonina for help.


Disclaimer:
However hard I tried, there may be errors.

The obvious question is, why would the run times be the same? I agree with Madnex and Rare: If you don't die, health+armor does not matter for run's time. The important stat is damage. Since damage is mostly dependent on the weapon, the difference in time caused by armor may be low.
For the Hauntlet example, maybe as the warrior switched to legendary, he got the aggro 100% time, which leads to better mob clustering & less time spent potting by DPS.

And it would not be me without a fun story, right.
During testing, I ran Overgrowth with legendaries first, and got killed by mobs quite a bit.
So I got the myths, swept through the map like a boss... and then realized that I unstashed the mythics but didn't equip them.
Which makes me believe that psychology and many other things have a big impact on run times.

What should be tested next (by someone else :-/)
- Measure dependence of mob's armor (real damage dealt vs. damage listed on Inventory page) on toon armor
- Measure crit+dodge rate for both attack and defence
- Measure mob health and damage with party of 2, 3, 4
- Repeat tests with warrior
- Find what makes mobs to focus on a specific toon. I ran Mount Spyr with a friend (rogue+sorcerer) and depending on the pets we equipped, all mobs went after me or her.

[Ishtmeet]

Did you re enter the map with your different gear sets Ish? I believe that mobs scale to whatever stats your toon has upon entrance.

Also, Sera has stated that she isn't sure what causes runs to take longer. If damage remains constant it is possible that hp increases on mobs. This will slow down your run the same as it would with the same hp and less damage.

Very interesting thread. I always felt in my mind that running with mythic gear never really helped me. Legendary gear worked just as well.

Why would I? All pics were took in one run.

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Waheedski]

I really hope high armour is better because im geared that way. I personally would've thought high armour is better and that mobs only become harder depending on your level not your armour. If Serancha has given data to suggest otherwise and at least make the devs look into it then its all good. I can see what Serancha is trying to say by stating high armour creates stronger mobs and thus makes it harder for the party especially the squishes and intensifies the battle.

Both Crow and Ish have posted opposing views with data also, I hope devs look into this and give feedback immediately on the issue.

Out of curiosity - arent runs slow anyway with a tank in party ? I dont mind a slow run if deaths are none or very minimal :) I must be the only one that doesn't care about speed runs LOL, you should see my crew in elites we're like the keystone cops :)

[Ishtmeet]

Out of curiosity - arent runs slow anyway with a tank in party?
This!^^^
Ofc when you run with a tank in pt, the runs will be slow, and you would have less deaths and use less potions.





Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Raregem]

What figures has she provided?

Faster, better, less. There are no numbers.

Am I suppose to fill a party of four and a party of three and repeat my testing? Fine, party me up. There should be no difference whether the entire party has higher or lower armor. Give me one variable to test.

Speed is an impractical dependent variable. Beyond that, not a single time has been provided. I will take Ish' over hers simply because his is defined, uses a distinct methid, and is replicable.

Sera's is a deja vu of Nikola Tesla's earthquake machine. We here there was a test and that the results are huge, spectacular, earth shattering. But, we can't test it, observe the testing, or have any figures from it.

PS: his "earthquake machine" was finally rebuilt by his specifications with less than spectacular results. It was likely a publicity stunt by him to gain funds for his floundering wireless electrical transmission studies (I am not saying that Serancha was doing a publicity stunt. The only point in cluding this is to show that an experiment without hard numbers is rarely accurate).

Post two does provide numbers and time.

[Ardbeg]

What figures has she provided?

Faster, better, less. There are no numbers.

Am I suppose to fill a party of four and a party of three and repeat my testing? Fine, party me up. There should be no difference whether the entire party has higher or lower armor. Give me one variable to test.

Speed is an impractical dependent variable. Beyond that, not a single time has been provided. I will take Ish' over hers simply because his is defined, uses a distinct methid, and is replicable.

Sera's is a deja vu of Nikola Tesla's earthquake machine. We here there was a test and that the results are huge, spectacular, earth shattering. But, we can't test it, observe the testing, or have any figures from it.

PS: his "earthquake machine" was finally rebuilt by his specifications with less than spectacular results. It was likely a publicity stunt by him to gain funds for his floundering wireless electrical transmission studies (I am not saying that Serancha was doing a publicity stunt. The only point in cluding this is to show that an experiment without hard numbers is rarely accurate).


you can t verify or falsify a observation made about the levelling for a party by inserting data for a single toon.
it s answering a question no one asked. if the time isn t a valid indicator for you, that something might be not in balance with the leveling of elite runs for *this obviously can t be stressed enough party runs*, it s a good idea to come up with a party test setup. or let the devs look at the code. i don t see how inserting single player test data helps to explain or debunk seranchas observations.

for mored tesla humor, please look here :) :

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla

[Crowsfoot]

Did you re enter the map with your different gear sets Ish? I believe that mobs scale to whatever stats your toon has upon entrance.

Also, Sera has stated that she isn't sure what causes runs to take longer. If damage remains constant it is possible that hp increases on mobs. This will slow down your run the same as it would with the same hp and less damage.

Very interesting thread. I always felt in my mind that running with mythic gear never really helped me. Legendary gear worked just as well.
Okay, let's stop playing shoot the fish in the barrel and define what the issue is.

Do you want to test damage output, damage reduction, mob HP, what? Pick a variable. Time simply isn't a reliant dependent variable.

Also decide whether you want tests done solo or in a party.

Furthermore, do you want us to reenter the map for each test? I didn't, it doesn't make sense to since mobs scale real time. We should all remember mobs becoming harder after a high level person enters the map. Or we can leave it up to Dev's right when an indisputable claim against the damage output claim was made.

PS: if "Sera has stated that she isn't sure what causes the runs to take longer," why on Earth would she make a thread on it? This thread makes it very clear that their are ways to test any hypothesis one may think of. There was ample time to test these as well since this testing had a 30+ man team working on it for months.

PPS: Milan tested the HP theory.

[Mihu]

I think this might be true, my warrior friend says that his elite runs take longer with maul which makes no sense but just happens. Also in km3 i can do 1min30sec runs easily with skilled legendary players but when i hav full myth team it usually takes almost 2mins.

[Ishtmeet]

Also in km3 i can do 1min30sec runs easily with skilled legendary players but when i hav full myth team it usually takes almost 2mins.
I would love to see this. :banana:



Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Mihu]

I was also suprised and thought why and now i might know the reason:) i see why u wars hate:p u love stacking that armor

[Waheedski]

This!^^^
Ofc when you run with a tank in pt, the runs will be slow, and you would have less deaths and use less potions.
Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

This is what I believe or lead to believe, that purpose of a tank is less deaths and less potion guzzling for mages and rogues. If my gear allows it then its all good right ? I try my best to keep the pace up, but then my concentration drops and I get sucker punched to respawnsville.

Here's the thing.... if the party is slow, why does the warrior get the blame first, you know my damage is lame but I'm keeping aggro so shouldn't the mages or rogues be guilty for not taking down the mobs fast enough, maybe they don't have the firepower to do so, then gear up and stop blaming me *glares at pesky rogue* LOL

I would be really sad if the findings are that higher armour does not benefit and rather is a risk! I would just have to go all out Health, I was actually gonna try to increase my armour further but I'll wait now for devs response.

[Crowsfoot]

you can t verify or falsify a observation made about the levelling for a party by inserting data for a single toon.
it s answering a question no one asked. if the time isn t a valid indicator for you, that something might be not in balance with the leveling of elite runs for *this obviously can t be stressed enough party runs*, it s a good idea to come up with a party test setup. or let the devs look at the code. i don t see how inserting single player test data helps to explain or debunk seranchas observations.

for mored tesla humor, please look here :) :

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tesla
Fine, party me in game. Better yet, I'd like Sera to party me (or any of the 30 involved in testing) so that I can k ow both the procedures and verify my own. It should only take 30-60 minutes to collect all the data I could need and then I will run all the numbers.

There shouldn't be a reason for mobs to only scale when in a party. Otherwise, a level 2 soloing a map would have the same mobs as a level 41 soloing the same map.

PS: typically the opposing view point is required to provide evidence to prove their conclusion. Not the defense disproving it.

Examples:
-Newton's laws of gravity. (Easier to prove so probably a poor example. But, granite and ivory balls. The apple was first but didn't solidify his claim)
-Tesla's study of voltage versus hertz and their relativity to amperage. (Tesla coils at world fair demonstration)
-Einstein's law relativity. (Bending if light around the sun. Proven when comparing star location during a solar eclipse)
-The Manhattan Project. (This one is self explanatory)
-Feynman's Tachyons. (Still unproven, but if the Chinese could make Feynmion without faking the results they would be proven)

[Crowsfoot]

I think this might be true, my warrior friend says that his elite runs take longer with maul which makes no sense but just happens. Also in km3 i can do 1min30sec runs easily with skilled legendary players but when i hav full myth team it usually takes almost 2mins.
This would contradict the OP since the Maul has zero armor.

PS: maul takes longer because you waste time spamming pots and dying. Great in boss fights for the proc.

[Mihu]

He runs faster with goblin glaive so maybe its the rarity

[utpal]

I have read somewhere that rarity affects the difficulty level. one need to wear atleast 2 same rarity items. but I read it like a year ago.
that's y I nvr bought mythics.(bought only pavise)

anyway great observations.

[Crowsfoot]

I have read somewhere that rarity affects the difficulty level. one need to wear atleast 2 same rarity items. but I read it like a year ago.
that's y I nvr bought mythics.(bought only pavise)

anyway great observations.
Doesn't effect damage intake. Check my numbers. Direct correlation between armor stat and damage intake has been proven.

[Ishtmeet]

Wow these comments,
If tank is good, the runs are faster. Why not to take a good tank in pt? He takes all the damage, wastes potions and all u have to do is spam skills. And some one mentioned here, maul runs are slower than normal runs. Our guild runs normal elite caves at 13-15 mins. If there is mauler, runs are definitely faster if he tanks properly with time to time procs. ;) If there's warrior in party, the time of your runs depends on: How good tank is in keeping aggro, and how good dps'es are good in killing mobs faster. There's no one who cares about mobs difficulty.

P.S: An elite farmer(Non tank) who wants smooth runs, will always look for a tank with high armour or hp for sure instead of entering elite jagged with full dps party. :banana:

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[utpal]

Wow these comments,
If tank is good, the runs are faster. Why not to take a good tank in pt? He takes all the damage, wastes potions and all u have to do is spam skills. And some one mentioned here, maul runs are slower than normal runs. Our guild runs normal elite caves at 13-15 mins. If there is mauler, runs are definitely faster. If there's warrior in party, the time of your runs depends on: How good tank is in keeping aggro, and how good dps'es are good in killing mobs faster. There's no one who cares about mobs difficulty.

P.S: An elite farmer(Non tank) who wants smooth runs, will always look for a tank with high armour or hp for sure. :banana:

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

lol no. it depends on how much lucky was he to proc maul.
it's fast when maul proc frequently throughout the run . :D.

[utpal]

@crows

yep. it makes alot harder to kill mobs. almost forever. that's y I used to run with architect sword or entombed past in farming easy elites. or soloing.

[Ishtmeet]

Fine, party me in game. Better yet, I'd like Sera to party me (or any of the 30 involved in testing) so that I can k ow both the procedures and verify my own. It should only take 30-60 minutes to collect all the data I could need and then I will run all the numbers.

There shouldn't be a reason for mobs to only scale when in a party. Otherwise, a level 2 soloing a map would have the same mobs as a level 41 soloing the same map.

PS: typically the opposing view point is required to provide evidence to prove their conclusion. Not the defense disproving it.

Examples:
-Newton's laws of gravity. (Easier to prove so probably a poor example. But, granite and ivory balls. The apple was first but didn't solidify his claim)
-Tesla's study of voltage versus hertz and their relativity to amperage. (Tesla coils at world fair demonstration)
-Einstein's law relativity. (Bending if light around the sun. Proven when comparing star location during a solar eclipse)
-The Manhattan Project. (This one is self explanatory)
-Feynman's Tachyons. (Still unproven, but if the Chinese could make Feynmion without faking the results they would be proven)

Lol looks like you're a brilliant physics student? ;)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Ishtmeet]

lol no. it depends on how much lucky was he to proc maul.
it's fast when maul proc frequently throughout the run . :D.

Haha,
Haan jo bhi ho maul toh maul hi hai ;)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Anyona]

I am confused as to why Sera isn't replying? If you're 100% sure you are right you'll be able to counter everyones arguments. After page 6 you haven't replied which is a bit stupid since you should be explaining as to why you're right and how you know you're right.

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

[Ishtmeet]

I am confused as to why Sera isn't replying? If you're 100% sure you are right you'll be able to counter everyones arguments. After page 6 you haven't replied which is a bit stupid since you should be explaining as to why you're right and how you know you're right.

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

Maybe she's sleeping. :)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[nelson131]

actually where"s the dmg stacking thread? couldnt find it.

[freakoutt]

I say get 2 parties of 4, 3 people same in both parties, 4th person is a mage on one pt and tank in other. Fourth player merely sits in the room doing nothing. Average time out of 20 runs on both pts see what happens

[Serancha]

I am confused as to why Sera isn't replying? If you're 100% sure you are right you'll be able to counter everyones arguments. After page 6 you haven't replied which is a bit stupid since you should be explaining as to why you're right and how you know you're right.

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk


I have explained all I need to, and nothing I say will make a difference at this point, since people will decide what they want about the info. The devs are going to look into it, which means there will be information when they do that.

As for the trolling, flaming and accusations, I will say this: I have a job and a life, which does not include sitting on a forum round the clock trying to prove somethig to a bunch of people who think I would actually make up something like this. I have never posted anything without purpose and a firm grounding behind it. I have no reason to lie, fabricate or make something up. I also do not believe in wasting people's time, including my own. So you can all get off your high horses and read my 1000+ posts and clue in that I am not an idiot and may possibly have a valid point.

I have nothing further to say to any trolls, and if the developers would like the rest of the data including test points, group run data, and the info from ALL the zones we tested on, they are welcome to request it from me by pm. I will finish by reminding everyone that flaming and trolling violates sts tos, as does calling me stupid.

Moderators feel free to lock this up if needed, I think we can wait for null_void

Thank you.

[tharidom]

I have explained all I need to, and nothing I say will make a difference at this point, since people will decide what they want about the info. The devs are going to look into it, which means there will be information when they do that.

As for the trolling, flaming and accusations, I will say this: I have a job and a life, which does not include sitting on a forum round the clock trying to prove somethig to a bunch of people who think I would actually make up something like this. I have never posted anything without purpose and a firm grounding behind it. I have no reason to lie, fabricate or make something up. I also do not believe in wasting people's time, including my own. So you can all get off your high horses and read my 1000+ posts and clue in that I am not an idiot and may possibly have a valid point.

I have nothing further to say to any trolls, and if the developers would like the rest of the data including test points, group run data, and the info from ALL the zones we tested on, they are welcome to request it from me by pm. I will finish by reminding everyone that flaming and trolling violates sts tos, as does calling me stupid.

Moderators feel free to lock this up if needed, I think we can wait for null_void

Thank you.

Just ignore them sera:).

[Rare]

Why all the tests with damage output?? Didn't have anything to do with "damage" according to Sera's op.

Better test, solo a mob with legendary gear then with mythic and check the time it takes (make sure the legendary had lower armor). This is a simple test. Need more to isolate variables.

[Anyona]

I am cofused as to how you think i'm trolling and flaming your thread? Could you care to explain as all i'm trying to give you is constructive feedback and a way to make your tests more accurate.

Also you can't be 100% sure because this is most likely all based of your damage. Think about it, less damage = less mob health/damage dealt. Makes sense huh? You've found something worth looking into but I don't think it's right.

Also blocking me on the forums is quite immature, all i've given you is constructive feedback and i've made several valid points. There is no point in making a thread where you know people will disagree and blocking them.

I don't know if you can see this but I don't care, just making my point. :smile:

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

[Ishtmeet]

Why all the tests with damage output?? Didn't have anything to do with "damage" according to Sera's op.

Better test, solo a mob with legendary gear then with mythic and check the time it takes (make sure the legendary had lower armor). This is a simple test. Need more to isolate variables.

Did it already.

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Ishtmeet]

I have explained all I need to, and nothing I say will make a difference at this point, since people will decide what they want about the info. The devs are going to look into it, which means there will be information when they do that.

As for the trolling, flaming and accusations, I will say this: I have a job and a life, which does not include sitting on a forum round the clock trying to prove somethig to a bunch of people who think I would actually make up something like this. I have never posted anything without purpose and a firm grounding behind it. I have no reason to lie, fabricate or make something up. I also do not believe in wasting people's time, including my own. So you can all get off your high horses and read my 1000+ posts and clue in that I am not an idiot and may possibly have a valid point.

I have nothing further to say to any trolls, and if the developers would like the rest of the data including test points, group run data, and the info from ALL the zones we tested on, they are welcome to request it from me by pm. I will finish by reminding everyone that flaming and trolling violates sts tos, as does calling me stupid.

Moderators feel free to lock this up if needed, I think we can wait for null_void

Thank you.

Whose trolling? Me crow anyona? If you create a thread like this saying " Warriors with high armour slow down the run, its totally not acceptable. How can it be possible, it has no point behind it. Like your hauntled example, With the same party , sometimes my runs are 1.45m + and sometimes its like, 1.25mins. So difference of few secs by changing gear has nothing to with time. Warriors with legend or mystic gear do almost same damage. Where in elites, everyone knows, 4 dps party is faster than a party having tank. This is not coz of armour value, it because warrior does negligible damage and hence increases the time of the run. Well, we run elites for farm and we don't like to run hard elites without any tank. Me as a tank- Reduce the potion usage of my party members by keeping aggro all the time and they just have to concentrate on killing. If there's no tank, they should concentrate on spanning potions as well as skills. Well, not everyone has plat for revives, so they prefer tank.

And please , Explain me how are we trolling? I'd love to hear that.
When someone said, earth is round, there were many who opposed him and called him an idiot. Likewise, your thread is almost the same like proving earth round, even if you're right we are just posting our views on it. Everyone has real life too.
Last reply on his thread. Thanks for the respect and now from your posts I learnt how to behave with someone who says - You're incorrect, and don't troll.

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[ClumsyCactus]

My head hurts, too much data.

[gumball3000]

Stats are fakeee

[Rare]

Did it already.

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

Link? Sorry. On mobile and can't find it. I just see a bunch of posts taking about damage dealt

[gumball3000]

I fully agree with this thread, i always felt the stats are fake. Sts wants to make the game playable for all but at the same time it doest make it too easy for fully geared people.

[basketholic209]

Whose trolling? Me crow anyona? If you create a thread like this saying " Warriors with high armour slow down the run, its totally not acceptable. How can it be possible, it has no point behind it. Like your hauntled example, With the same party , sometimes my runs are 1.45m + and sometimes its like, 1.25mins. So difference of few secs by changing gear has nothing to with time. Warriors with legend or mystic gear do almost same damage. Where in elites, everyone knows, 4 dps party is faster than a party having tank. This is not coz of armour value, it because warrior does negligible damage and hence increases the time of the run. Well, we run elites for farm and we don't like to run hard elites without any tank. Me as a tank- Reduce the potion usage of my party members by keeping aggro all the time and they just have to concentrate on killing. If there's no tank, they should concentrate on spanning potions as well as skills. Well, not everyone has plat for revives, so they prefer tank.

And please , Explain me how are we trolling? I'd love to hear that.
When someone said, earth is round, there were many who opposed him and called him an idiot. Likewise, your thread is almost the same like proving earth round, even if you're right we are just posting our views on it. Everyone has real life too.
Last reply on his thread. Thanks for the respect and now from your posts I learnt how to behave with someone who says - You're incorrect, and don't troll.

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk
Sera has his/her view. You have yours. You guys agree to disagree. Sam, on the other hand, already said that he'll pass it to the devs.

I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, but to call Sera stupid for not replying when there is clearly a disagreement between both parties is totally unacceptable.

[Otahaanak]

If she had said ROGUE armor scaled the mobs difficulty, my guess is neither you Ish, nor Crow, would have tried to debunk the findings.

It should be enough for you that Sam replied quickly saying they would look into it.

No doubt in my mind this is happening at some level. As a mage I've experienced changes in mob difficulty doing PUG tooth runs repeatedly in the Wilds. The point of Sera's post was to open the discussion about a game mechanic involving party runs.

As far as hauntlet runs go, I have been in dozens of haunted AP runs and can tell you that never does a 15 second gap happen - few sec here and there, but never during a complete run with that much discrepancy with the same party composition. So ya, time can be used as a measure of game mechanic IMO.

My .02

[Crowsfoot]

I have explained all I need to, You havent provided the times from a single test fpr comparison and nothing I say will make a difference at this point, Actual data will change my mind very quickly since people will decide what they want about the info. Yes, I am basing all conclusions off information and data The devs are going to look into it, which means there will be information when they do that. Sam also mentioned that the OP shouldn't be correct. I would also like to have my own data since the Dev's will likely not share their own findings[ /b]

As for the trolling, flaming and accusations, [b]So anyone who disputes your claim is a troll? So what you are implying is you are 100% right and we are either too ignorant or proud to admit it? Don't flatter yourself. I'm open to any data you have. I haven't seen a single recorded time from a run. Not one. I will say this: I have a job and a life, which does not include sitting on a forum round the clock trying to prove somethig to a bunch of people who think I would actually make up something like that. I never said yoi made it up. People, myself included, did, however, offer several scenarios that explain the results while you close yourself to any differing information. At the no life comment. You spent a few months on this, don't try and be high and mighty because some of us spent a few hours. I have never posted anything without purpose and a firm grounding behind it. We all mistakes. I have, and I was able to chalk up to it. Thankfully, Kali was able to provide data to counter my falsity which immediately changed my position. You can't dispute numbers. You can, however, sit their and insult everyone who doesn't trust informatiin that lacks any quantitative information. I have no reason to lie, Doesnt mean you cant be wrong. Again, we all make mistakes, no one is mad at you. fabricate or make something up. I also do nSot believe in wasting people's time, including my own. So you can all get off your high horses and read my 1000+ posts and clue in that I am not an idiot and may possibly have a valid point.So because you were right on your other posts you are never wrong? Whose on the high horse again? We all make mistakes.

I have nothing further to say to any trolls, I like how the trolls are the ones with measurable data. But you insulting them is constructive. It is very hard to lose my respect after gaining it. Congradulations. I didn't realize you were perfect. All you have to do to prove your findings is to provide quantitative data that can be replicated. You haven't, but I'm patient enough to look at it once you get it; even if it is months from now Soand if the developers would like the rest of the data including test points, group run data, and the info from ALL the zones we tested on, they are welcome to request it from me by pm.great! You have data. If you could, please post it. I would be interested in them and the procedures of testing I will finish by reminding everyone that flaming and trolling violates sts tos, as does calling me stupid.It is pretty evident that you aren't stupid. Stubborn seems fitting though since you just insult everyone who disagrees with you. I try not to insult anyone. I was harsh in a few posts because I was flustered and apologize for them (the ones following my first data post). I think it would be nice of you to counter any of the provided data with your own instead of throwing mud. Feel free to call me a troll for no reason. You seem to get 5+ thanks every time you do

Moderators feel free to lock this up if needed, I think we can wait for null_void

Thank you.
Response in bold.

Personal note:
Please stop insulting people who post on this thread. I have owned up and apologized for my sharp remarks yesterday. It was inappropriate for me to get flustered over people disagreeing with me. Everyone here is just trying to find the truth. We can make mistakes and I don't think it is fair of you to assume you are right without proving it to us. Any data from testing would be helpful.

If you are open to additional testing you can forum PM me and we may able to do some testing tomorrow. I have prior obligations for today and will be unavailable both in game and likely on the forums after 2.

[Crowsfoot]

If she had said ROGUE armor scaled the mobs difficulty, my guess is neither you Ish, nor Crow, would have tried to debunk the findings.

It should be enough for you that Sam replied quickly saying they would look into it.

No doubt in my mind this is happening at some level. As a mage I've experienced changes in mob difficulty doing PUG tooth runs repeatedly in the Wilds. The point of Sera's post was to open the discussion about a game mechanic involving party runs.

As far as hauntlet runs go, I have been in dozens of haunted AP runs and can tell you that never does a 15 second gap happen - few sec here and there, but never during a complete run with that much discrepancy with the same party composition. So ya, time can be used as a measure of game mechanic IMO.

My .02
Her comment was that the finding apply to all classes. If it only scales rogue damage I am open to testing rogue damage output while I change my armor stat since warrior armor was claimed a factor.

[Raregem]

The times and numbers gathered from the test runs are provided in post #2 on this thread.

[Anyona]

Just to clarify, I didn't call Serancha stupid. I said that the fact she hasn't replied to us and gave us clear evidence that she is 100% right is stupid. Stop trying to twist my words, thanks!

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk

[basketholic209]

Just to clarify, I didn't call Serancha stupid. I said that the fact she hasn't replied to us and gave us clear evidence that she is 100% right is stupid. Stop trying to twist my words, thanks!

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk
Could you quote Sera's post where he/she said that he/she was 100% right? Or did you just try to twist Sera's words?

Btw, the fact that we're still arguing in a middle of a World Cup match is stupid. I'm not calling Anyone stupid (pun intended). Don't twist my words. Cheers everyone! :)

[Crowsfoot]

The times and numbers gathered from the test runs are provided in post #2 on this thread.
Only the averages. I would like to see the hard data, not the applied.

Something like the spoiler in my post on my tests.

[Ishtmeet]

Sera has his/her view. You have yours. You guys agree to disagree. Sam, on the other hand, already said that he'll pass it to the devs.

I'm not saying who is right and who is wrong, but to call Sera stupid for not replying when there is clearly a disagreement between both parties is totally unacceptable.

Any post where I mentioned her stupid? Was giving an example of Christopher columbus. If you read it carefully. :)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Ishtmeet]

I believe that damage has something to do with mob damage and hp. Try using different weapons and go into a tindirin map and see if you are being hit harder. If my theory is correct a mage with an expedidtion gun will be hit less than a mage with an arcane staff.

All gears should be the same and no pet used. I think armor has nothing to do with it, you have proved that tarlok in tindirin is about the same time as mythics bit you haven't thought that the large damage increase may have something to do with mobs hp/damage.

Think about it, less damage = less mob damage but the same damage when using mythics. 450 dmg 1100 armor vs 520 dmg 1363 armor, try gettting somewhere around 450 dmg whilst having mythics equipped and you should be able to determine if damage is the most important factor which decides the mobs hp and dmg dealt.

Sent from my ST26i using Tapatalk


Link? Sorry. On mobile and can't find it. I just see a bunch of posts taking about damage dealt

See post no. 63on this thread.
Ty

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk

[Ishtmeet]

@Rare
You wanna see how much fast we kill in both cases? Ok I'll post the observation in few mins.

Sent from my Gpad_G1 in ENRAGED MODE.

[basketholic209]

Any post where I mentioned her stupid? Was giving an example of Christopher columbus. If you read it carefully. :)

Sent from my Gpad_G1 using Tapatalk
On that part, I was not referring to you, mate :)

[Hectororius]

Well,

Aside from the negative posts there is a lot of info here. One thing crow or ish can do though is run their tests with a full party, as that is what is being discussed here. Doing a test solo doesn't really test anything as there is no party scale involved.

Thanks to everyone that has posted info though.

As for the hauntlet run, serancha never specified if they continued to make runs with the under geared warrior with same results, or just stopped once the AP was achieved.

[Seoratrek]

This thread has run its course. Closing this one down :)