No djinns, no bosses, no loot, no fun

[Kalielle]

I just wanted to give my thoughts on the update, especially regarding the game play. It seems a lot of people talk about the market and how it made them rich, but very few comment on how the game now plays.

I played through the new shadow caves today and it seemed most of the djinns were no longer there. I know, this probably seems like a strange thing to complain about. But before today's update, I actually really enjoyed how the new maps played. For the first since the rebalance made the game really easy for level 50s, I was again seeing people think and talk about strategy, and it was mainly due to the clever placement of the djinns. Especially where there were 2 djinns in one place, I was hearing people talk about how to pull, saying "nice pull!" or "ouch bad pull" (words which I haven't heard in ages!), or doing things like having one person kite one djinn while the other was being dealt with, or similar neat strategic things.

I guess the djinns must now spawn randomly, because there were much fewer of them. And without them the whole map is just a mindless grind, much like that long corridor in Plasma Pyramid that I recall many players complained about. But at least there after the long grind you had the payoff of fighting several bosses. And I'm not just talking about the loot, but that excitement of "ok, here comes the boss room, everyone ready? here we go".

Which brings me to my next point. I understand why the drop rate had to be nerfed, but why make the bosses spawn only some of the time? It just seems cruel to fight through a very long map of mobs and not even get the chance to fight a boss at the end. A lot of people in the games today were quitting at the end of the level, saying things like this is not worth it, etc. And that's even though open cave games are much harder to find today. Yesterday there were plenty of games and yet I've seen very few people quit at the end of a level.

You've already made the portal a rare spawn, the maps impossible to rush, and pretty hard and grindy, and the drop rate terrible. Do we really need to have no boss at the end? Just because you can make bosses spawn randomly doesn't mean the feature should be used all the time. There's a time and place for it: Mynas and the swamp boss who drops fun hats are good ones. Making the only boss at the end of a long grindy map be a random spawn just makes one feel disappointed at the end of the game.

Finally, there's the loot. I can only hope the new loot tables are temporary, because after fighting through a long grind of a map and facing a hard boss that's not always even there, getting white AO2 loot feels like a slap in the face. I'm not gonna get into the argument about whether the all pink loot system was good (although I have to say, it seemed to get a lot of casual players into those dungeons, and instead of loot envy at the end of the game you would hear things like "yay just what I wanted" "gratz" and "hey can I swap my drop for yours" etc). But even if we don't get all pinks, it would be nice to see some loot, given how long and grindy the maps are. Maybe add some extra pink drops to the djinns if nothing else.

And incidentally, I have been farming the caves for the past 2 days non-stop and have gear for all my alts and plenty of extras. I have everything to gain financially from having the loot tables stay as they are - and still I think they should be changed. I just really, really enjoyed farming the caves, for both the loot and the strategy, and now suddenly I have nothing left to farm. I'm not asking for all pinks, but I think the current update took things too far into the other extreme.

Oh and by the way, thank you for the free extra maps. I really enjoyed playing them these past few days and I think a lot of my friends did too. I regret that I didn't post on forums about it sooner. It seems the people who hated the maps got a lot of the attention, but they don't represent everyone's opinion.

[Pharcyde]

Wow... A lot to read..

I don't think the devs understand that the maps need to be challenging tactically. Not challenging based on how many potions you guzzle and how long you troll your hp. I would certainly enjoy the map more if it was challenging in other ways other then the fact that they pwn.

No Bosses = sad lonely boss fufilment at end of level.

I am in love that they nerfed in all, cuz I got super rich off of it. But the level itself I will most likely never play again.

[supremo502]

too long to read

[supremo502]

Long story short..

LOW DROP RATE = FINE
CLEARING LEVEL ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT THERES NO BOSS = WTFBLIZZ I MEAN WTF SPACETIME

[Pharcyde]

I think it was just a fast sloppy update. I assume there will be a nerf to the nerf. Afterall, bosses are the only decently fun part of the map, and your taking that away from the map.

[Inching]

i read the entire thing... and very well said and I agree totally. a bit long but still to the point. kudos

[giayuan]

I read it all thank you :)
And yes, I sort of "agree" with you. And now here my "counter arguement".
THIS IS AN ELITE DUNGEON! This is supposed to be, "hard" "annnoying" "disappointing" "extremely F'ed up" etc. Without those factors, it WOULDNT BE ELITE! If you seriously are just pissed at the devs for nerfing, go play ao3 regular. They made it so that most of the RVC are worth something, therefore making farming VL worth it now. (no more 5k cosmos helms lol). My idea is that the devs gave us all free pinks in the beginning, than made them almost impossible to get. The elite dungeon pinks dont have set bonus, but they are better than RVC. This makes demand higher, and there are little out there, as we only got 3 days to get the easy pinks. Now, the true aspect of "l33t" is brought out, and players are forced to play hard to get a reward in the end. If you are casual, go play regular ao3! There is plenty of new content for that too!

And of course, this is coming from a biased mouth, as I gained from this update/nerf. But this is my opinion and Im sure many other people approve of this wonderful new content! =)

[Pharcyde]

THIS IS AN ELITE DUNGEON! This is supposed to be, "hard" "annnoying" "disappointing" "extremely F'ed up" etc. Without those factors, it WOULDNT BE ELITE!

I agree with everything but 1.) hard 2.) annoying.

1. Yeah it should be hard, but in other aspects. The only thing hard about it is that the mobs cast tons of damage forcing you to potion guzzle a ton. I want a tactically challenging map that is interesting vs a bland challenging map that requires thousands of potions.

2. How does annoying make it fun? I understand how maybe not getting a drop you want after like 1000 tries gets annoying. But a purposely annoying map? Explain that part to me please :).

[Arterra]

I read it all thank you :)
And yes, I sort of "agree" with you. And now here my "counter arguement".
THIS IS AN ELITE DUNGEON! This is supposed to be, "hard" "annnoying" "disappointing" "extremely F'ed up" etc. Without those factors, it WOULDNT BE ELITE! If you seriously are just pissed at the devs for nerfing, go play ao3 regular.

lol elite doesnt mean you shouldnt want to do it. means you go through a hard MFing place to get to the end and fight the hardest you have ever before, hopefully have a good chance of getting rewarded. here we are just feeding our pot addiction, not even getting drops off mobs to counter gold dump (problem in my opinion) and in the end only have a chance to meet your worst adversary yet... i mean really?? why dont they at least leave a note saying "oh coffee break my bad... problem?"
Hell, Ill even take a witch randomly appearing in the middle of our group as a miniboss, with something worse in the end.

[giayuan]

I like your comment of guzzling pots =) I think the same. A map as a maze, or requires something would be better than just hard mobs. I agree with you there. But,
Pharcyde...I used wrong words. Instead of annoying, I meant frustrating. If it was frustrating, people would be propelled to try harder. Those who quit, well...ITS AN ELITE DUNGEON! (once again...) You arent forced to play it! just play regular ao3... Without elite, it would still be just reg ao3.

[BlueMagma]

Giayuan, you my good sir, are correct

It's Elite for a reason, to make it hard i mean the only challenge we had before was OL and we managed that, asking for more, and this is what we got.
Personally, i'm like Pharcyde, super rich now cuz i own all three sets, so i'm not complaining :P

But the main point is this, before the update, there was 2 days of farming for pink shadows and holy crap, we farmed the eff outta the shadows. This update basically put the stop on the over farming that was going on, i mean i would see like 4 pages in the CS on just one type of armor (obvi at a low price), and i would see the few people with actual rift, void, cosmo or cyber armor. In my mind, i'm thinking, plz put a stop to this or PL is going down. So, what did the devs do? the smart thing, make it really hard to farm but still possible and making new sets for old armor. The result? making all armor affordable and worth having.

Also, i noticed that instead of having just Void, Rift, and Cosmo circulating at like 400k a piece (not cosmo obvi) now there is a bigger range of armor at a reasonable rate of shadows 100 - 200k and oldies 200 - 300k. It was extremely hard to farm for those oldies before even cyber was introduced and now at least its at a fair balance.

[Pharcyde]

I like your comment of guzzling pots =) I think the same. A map as a maze, or requires something would be better than just hard mobs. I agree with you there. But,
Pharcyde...I used wrong words. Instead of annoying, I meant frustrating. If it was frustrating, people would be propelled to try harder. Those who quit, well...ITS AN ELITE DUNGEON! (once again...) You arent forced to play it! just play regular ao3... Without elite, it would still be just reg ao3.

Okay frustrating is a better word :). So we are on the same train of thought. High five!

[Lesrider]

I dint even step into the cave yet tonight, but from what I hear, I won't be. But then again, I didn't like it much the first time. I'm with Pharcyde in that more strategy would be nice. I'm still waiting for more Gurg-like bosses.

[Arterra]

elite dungeon is not, i repeat, not supposed to be a bore. give us consistent bosses. we are not asking for 100% drop rate again people! we are asking for what PL has consistently given us already throughout the game! a final test in the map... if you are going to have final rooms with extra decoration, make it count >.<

[giayuan]

Yup yup~~
I knew there would be people like us; I think we all arent complaining cause we got the sets, but oh well ;)

Oh Yeah! Heres a great idea for a map. So we have to have speakers on. Than it will start asking us questions:
"What is the max level cap now?" "Where does * * drop?" and the like and we tap the answer as rocks jumble themselves up as answer or something. I can tell pharcyde is one of those, old hippies who go to a cafe everyday to play sudoku Ahahaha *snort* lol... jk jk ;)

But yeah, I agree with a more..puzzle..like map.

[Pharcyde]

Heheh someone called me two-faced today because I said I loved the Nerf then said I hate the nerf on two threads.

Love the nerf because I made massive bank on it.
Hate the nerf beccause it too the best part about the maps away. Bosses.

[giayuan]

So if I took all your pinks and profit away, you would become a so called "whiner"? xD

[Kalielle]

THIS IS AN ELITE DUNGEON! This is supposed to be, "hard" "annnoying" "disappointing" "extremely F'ed up" etc. Without those factors, it WOULDNT BE ELITE!

The nerf made the dungeons easier, not more challenging. The bosses and djinns made them hard and they took those out. I do want them to be hard end elite, that's my whole point.

[Pharcyde]

I wouldn't whine. I would C R Y!

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=427816395822&id=7ed9c8f2ef55fbb62e29ef5a3abfee14

[Kujen]

The elite items are too rare now. If you look at the stats, are they really that much better than the other sets? Rare portal, rare boss, rare drop rate. The stats aren't that much better to make it worth all that.

[Ellyidol]

The elite items are too rare now. If you look at the stats, are they really that much better than the other sets? Rare portal, rare boss, rare drop rate. The stats aren't that much better to make it worth all that.

Maybe not yet. There aren't any set bonuses yet and they're already at par with the Ao3 pinks. Not saying there will be, they could just leave them at that.

[Lesrider]

The elite items are too rare now. If you look at the stats, are they really that much better than the other sets? Rare portal, rare boss, rare drop rate. The stats aren't that much better to make it worth all that.

Yeah, the reason rift/void/cosmos was always sonhigh in demand was because there was no other set with stats like them. And ao3 used to destroy anyone who didn't have them. But now, all three sets seem about the same for pve.
For pvp, maybe there's a huge diff, but I don't play so wouldn't know.
Point is, there isn't anything in the game that you can do with one set but not the others. The original, cyber, and elite are all perfectly good for farming ao3, etc.

[Arterra]

Point is, there isn't anything in the game that you can do with one set but not the others. The original, cyber, and elite are all perfectly good for farming ao3, etc.

meh you can farm with hobo green gear if you want. just means its more fun ;D

[Lesrider]

meh you can farm with hobo green gear if you want. just means its more fun ;D

Aww I miss Bal in her Hobo Potato Sack of Indifference!

[spacehamster]

Ah glad I'm not the only anti-pot guzzling/elixer chugger out there!
Props to the devs for the new area and gear, but I tend to agree. My favorite part of Frozen Nightmare was that pots weren't available and we had to work together to survive (now also nerfed!). I was hoping the new Elite areas would have the same challenge aspect but it did turn out to be more of a test of who could spam pots the fastest.

[krazii]

First of all, Thanks for the free dungeons, they have been lot's of fun and the rewards were unbelievable for the first few days, glad your "balancing" it now, or was this the plan all along?

That said, Kali's comments are right on and well put (constructive).

1. Elite dungeon should require strategy (not just burning through pots to live), please put back Djinns (or even more), even if drops still same.
2. Please put a boss at the end of level, keep loot tables as they are now (or adjust to factor in more bosses), just the idea of a boss with the potential of a reward at the end of a long grind of a level helps the game be funnier (ps, put red eyes on them or something).
3. After you put bosses at the end of each level back, please make them tougher (like the witch). It would be great if each required some different strategy other then just attack, heal, occasional skill. The witch requires a good strategy and use of many skills in combination to kill her without pots and she is fun regardless of the loot u get.

Hope this helps, Thanks for the good post Kali,

Kraz

[Kossi]

Words. There be 2 many

This was a great update, restored the fun

[superglut2]

Dsiable pots in frozen nightmare AND shadow cave. Leave drop rate the same. AND extra host features for elite maps and always spawn bosses and EVERYONE is happy. Thats it.

[Riccits]

caves are death no... its easier to farm green ice...
enjoy the last items in shop, they are pretty cheap in confront how hard they are to get, like impossible... there wont be any more...

everyons giving up playing caves now, i dont wanna kill 5 maps for 2h and may dont c any boss...
i have all items and some more, so i dont care.. buts really funny situation...

[Arterra]

Lol all of us have a set (or a chance at one b4) and we don't see how future players are just never going to see them.

[Fyrce]

With rare spawn bosses, I finally understand the 100% pink drop rate. Because bosses are rare. BTW, they were not rare spawn before. As far as I could tell, they weren't even occasional spawn. They were 100% spawn once enough minions were cleared.

I do wonder why taking away the bosses also means the mini-bosses disappeared. They didn't drop elite pinks and they sure were great entertainment for the corridors.

[Ellyidol]

With rare spawn bosses, I finally understand the 100% pink drop rate. Because bosses are rare. BTW, they were not rare spawn before. As far as I could tell, they weren't even occasional spawn. They were 100% spawn once enough minions were cleared.

I do wonder why taking away the bosses also means the mini-bosses disappeared. They didn't drop elite pinks and they sure were great entertainment for the corridors.

I think, they were under the impression rare boss spawns would make people want to do the dungeons more. So they eased up on the mobs so itd get "easier". Lol

[Gavry]

Hey Kalielle, great post. Very well put. From one who doesn't play right now, just watching from the forums, I totally agree with your point about strategy and fun in maps. The lack there of, is one of the main reasons I'm on a break. I'm sad to say each new update and patch seems to take this game one step more in the wrong direction. It's actually getting very disheartening to watch.

I can only hope things turn around soon, not holding my breath.

PS, miss playing with you. :(

[Riccits]

now its to late for changes...everyone has his gear...
from beginnig is should be that way:
- all bosses spawn
- drop rate like ao3 bosses

when i woulb be so, caves would be farmed like hell.. prices adaptes similar to ao3, may a bit higher
end of next week cs will be almost empty of elite gear... ppl who just want lvl 50 gear return to make quests or farm vl...

[Echelong]

I love the idea of rare drops but the rare spawn bosses I don't. I would like to kill them even if they don't drop this would give the group a sense of purpose.

[thugimmortal]

With rare spawn bosses, I finally understand the 100% pink drop rate. Because bosses are rare. BTW, they were not rare spawn before. As far as I could tell, they weren't even occasional spawn. They were 100% spawn once enough minions were cleared.

I do wonder why taking away the bosses also means the mini-bosses disappeared. They didn't drop elite pinks and they sure were great entertainment for the corridors.

I agree rare spawn bosses with 100% drop rate would have been better. the caves are empty now. im not going there anymore wasting gold on pots and elixers for nothing. people have got what they wanted and farmed for hours, stocked up on the new pinks, and then after they had enough of the pinks they wanted to farm whined so so the drop rate lowered to non existant. theyre ok they got rich but whats the point having all this gold when there nothing to buy anyway if u got all the best stuff. its just about bragging rights how rich people are.

[Echelong]

Bosses should be there at least even if drop rates are lower then AO3. But this rare spawn to get in plus rare spawn bosses plus rare drop rare is far to much and not worth the money. If bosses spawned all the time with rare drops its ok and maybe a special rare boss spawn like Vyxnaar would be great. He could spawn in any chapter but rarely and could have a secret weapon or armor or who knows maybe a set.

[screamer]

I am sure they slowed things down for now so they could go back and reevaluate the dungeons. No worries. They will come back with something everyone will be happy with. Just be patient.

[StompArtist]

I just wanted to give my thoughts on the update, especially regarding the game play. It seems a lot of people talk about the market and how it made them rich, but very few comment on how the game now plays.

I played through the new shadow caves today and it seemed most of the djinns were no longer there. I know, this probably seems like a strange thing to complain about. But before today's update, I actually really enjoyed how the new maps played. For the first since the rebalance made the game really easy for level 50s, I was again seeing people think and talk about strategy, and it was mainly due to the clever placement of the djinns. Especially where there were 2 djinns in one place, I was hearing people talk about how to pull, saying "nice pull!" or "ouch bad pull" (words which I haven't heard in ages!), or doing things like having one person kite one djinn while the other was being dealt with, or similar neat strategic things.

I guess the djinns must now spawn randomly, because there were much fewer of them. And without them the whole map is just a mindless grind, much like that long corridor in Plasma Pyramid that I recall many players complained about. But at least there after the long grind you had the payoff of fighting several bosses. And I'm not just talking about the loot, but that excitement of "ok, here comes the boss room, everyone ready? here we go".

Which brings me to my next point. I understand why the drop rate had to be nerfed, but why make the bosses spawn only some of the time? It just seems cruel to fight through a very long map of mobs and not even get the chance to fight a boss at the end. A lot of people in the games today were quitting at the end of the level, saying things like this is not worth it, etc. And that's even though open cave games are much harder to find today. Yesterday there were plenty of games and yet I've seen very few people quit at the end of a level.

You've already made the portal a rare spawn, the maps impossible to rush, and pretty hard and grindy, and the drop rate terrible. Do we really need to have no boss at the end? Just because you can make bosses spawn randomly doesn't mean the feature should be used all the time. There's a time and place for it: Mynas and the swamp boss who drops fun hats are good ones. Making the only boss at the end of a long grindy map be a random spawn just makes one feel disappointed at the end of the game.

Finally, there's the loot. I can only hope the new loot tables are temporary, because after fighting through a long grind of a map and facing a hard boss that's not always even there, getting white AO2 loot feels like a slap in the face. I'm not gonna get into the argument about whether the all pink loot system was good (although I have to say, it seemed to get a lot of casual players into those dungeons, and instead of loot envy at the end of the game you would hear things like "yay just what I wanted" "gratz" and "hey can I swap my drop for yours" etc). But even if we don't get all pinks, it would be nice to see some loot, given how long and grindy the maps are. Maybe add some extra pink drops to the djinns if nothing else.

And incidentally, I have been farming the caves for the past 2 days non-stop and have gear for all my alts and plenty of extras. I have everything to gain financially from having the loot tables stay as they are - and still I think they should be changed. I just really, really enjoyed farming the caves, for both the loot and the strategy, and now suddenly I have nothing left to farm. I'm not asking for all pinks, but I think the current update took things too far into the other extreme.

Oh and by the way, thank you for the free extra maps. I really enjoyed playing them these past few days and I think a lot of my friends did too. I regret that I didn't post on forums about it sooner. It seems the people who hated the maps got a lot of the attention, but they don't represent everyone's opinion.

I agree. Yesterday I did a run and ended up thinking... "not much shadows in the shadow caves should be called the desert cave".

[mrpredalien]

I just want the 100% drop pinks back..
so cheap cuz u dont get anything after wasting 400 potions.

[Lesrider]

I just want the 100% drop pinks back..
so cheap cuz u dont get anything after wasting 400 potions.

Not gonna happen, but read Cinco's post -- the bosses are all back, and chance of even more of them spawning.

[Echelong]

Not gonna happen, but read Cinco's post -- the bosses are all back, and chance of even more of them spawning.

Can you imagine two witches at the same time? Would be fun lol.

[Lesrider]

Can you imagine two witches at the same time? Would be fun lol.

Lol that does sound like a challenge. I predict a lot of screenies in the future coming from those caves...

[Riccits]

Can you imagine two witches at the same time? Would be fun lol.

Wooooooot!!!

[Arterra]

make it a room full of only archers, and suddenly a witch appears. thats brutal.

[Riccits]

make it a room full of only archers, and suddenly a witch appears. thats brutal.

i woudnt say that archers sux now, but having 2 bears in caves really ownz more now..

[Echelong]

make it a room full of only archers, and suddenly a witch appears. thats brutal.

just like a room full of int mages. Both would be quick and painless.

[Arterra]

i woudnt say that archers sux now, but having 2 bears in caves really ownz more now..

nono i mean a room full of those blue djin archers ;) brutal for low armor people, and aoe casting mages

[Kalielle]

Thank you devs!!! I can't wait to play the new caves - and it's not even about the loot now since I already have enough of it. Several bosses at once sounds like fun, and will require teamwork which is what I love about the game.



PS, miss playing with you. :(

I miss playing with you too! :( Any chance you'll come back sooner? With the multiple bosses we're really gonna need a tank who knows what he's doing, and you're one of the best I've ever known.