Guide to Advanced Mechanics in PL: DPS, Crits, etc. [Archive]

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Physiologic

01-15-2011, 04:25 AM

Guide to Advanced Mechanics in PL: DPS, Crits, etc.
by Physiologic

Check out my other Pocket Legends guides:
How Drop Rates Work (Simplified) and the Factor of Luck Elixirs (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30059-How-Drop-Rates-Work-%28Simplified%29-and-the-Factor-of-Luck-Elixirs)
Post-Global Cooldown (GCD) Video Runs at Balefort Sewers (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?23726-Post-Global-Cooldown-%28GCD%29-Video-Runs-at-Balefort-Sewers)
In-Depth Guide to Farming Balefort Sewers (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?22587-In-Depth-Guide-to-Farming-Balefort-Sewers)
Comprehensive Archer Skills and Equipment Guide (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16244-Comprehensive-Archer-Skills-and-Equipment-Guide)
Complete Lv 55 Archer Gear List (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?19819-Complete-Lv-55-Archer-Gear-List)
Pocket Legends Enemy, Boss, and NPC Compendium (http://tinyurl.com/4tmz87x)
How to Craft Lv 55 Gear (http://tinyurl.com/4lcxe23)
How to calculate your attributes using STR, DEX, and INT (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?20606-How-to-calculate-your-attributes-using-STR-DEX-and-INT)
Ring List (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?18941-Ring-List)
Guide to Advanced Mechanics in PL: DPS, Crits, etc. (http://tinyurl.com/4u6bkuj)
Void Set versus Sentinel equips: An Unbiased Analysis (http://tinyurl.com/4g72okf)
In-Depth Guide to Farming Alien Oasis 3: Victory Lap (http://tinyurl.com/4u62hxt)

Check out my other Star Legends guides:
Star Legends General Attributes (STR, DEX, INT) Guide (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30467-Star-Legends-General-Attributes-%28STR-DEX-INT%29-Guide)
Prefix/Suffix Compendium for Weapons and Armors (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30417-Prefix-Suffix-Compendium-for-Weapons-and-Armors)
Lv 20-21 Operative Weapons and Equips (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30545-Lv-20-21-Operative-Weapons-and-Equips)

Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. How to Calculate Your Attributes using STR/DEX/INT
III. How DPS Works
IV. How Crits Work
V. Enemy Armor and Affected Damage
VI. The Effect and Extent of Damage Multipliers (Combos)
VII. "I have a hit% of 135, why do I miss?"
VIII. The Search for a Crit Cap
IX. The Difference Between Damage and DPS, and Which To Choose
X. Hidden Weapon Skills aka Procs
XI. "My skill has a range of 8m...what does this mean, and how far exactly is 8m (8 meters) in this game?"
XII. Algorithm for a Successful or Failed Attack
XIII. Thx and Revision History

I. Introduction

Here's a long, boring guide of how certain mechanics work such as DPS, critical damage, and damage multipliers (or combos).

Word of Caution: This guide is not for the casual player. I created this guide for those interested in specific game mechanics. Thus, there are a lot of calculations and methodology involved. Many of these things may already be known but I like to test and prove theories through exact methods. If there are more things I can add, or if there's something you wish to know, do not hesitate to ask.

II. How to Calculate Your Attributes Using STR/DEX/INT

A very underused but awesome guide in this forum is Eleanor's Enchantress Attributes Guide. The spreadsheet located in that guide shows how much each point of STR, DEX, or INT does to your attribute values, namely hit%, crit, dodge, health, h/s, mana, m/s, damage, DPS, and armor.

These formulas are the accumulation of Eleanor's work and should be precise with an occasional deviating value of -1/+1 (especially in damage and DPS). Basically, just plug in STR, DEX, and INT numbers as well as the other attributes your armor/weapon gives to determine what your stats will look like.

Decimal values are not rounded. For example, 6.88 = 6

STR = STR from attributes + total STR from equips
DEX = DEX from attributes + total DEX from equips
INT = INT from attributes + total INT from equips

Hit% = 66.49 + ((DEX-1) x 0.16) + ((INT-6) x 0.1) + Hit% from equips

Crit = 1.73 + (STR x 0.03) + ((DEX-1) x 0.032) + ((INT-6) x 0.02) + Crit from equips

Dodge = 1.575 + (STR x 0.025) + ((DEX-1) x 0.0125) + ((INT-6) x 0.005) + Dodge from equips

H/s = 0.76 + (STR x 0.02) + ((DEX-1) x 0.01) + ((INT-6) x 0.005) + H/s from equips

M/s = 0.78 + (INT x 0.02) + M/s from equips

Damage = 8.35-14.35 + (STR x 0.02) + ((DEX-1) x 0.15) + ((INT-6) x 0.08) + Damage from equips

DPS = 9.55 + (STR x 0.0167) + ((DEX-1) x 0.125) + ((INT-6) x 0.067) + (Damage from equips / weapon speed)

Notes:
1. Health pool, Mana pool, and Armor have been excluded.
2. The first number in each calculation is derived from a Mage with beginning stats of 1 STR, 2 DEX, and 7 INT. 1 DEX and 6 INT are subtracted whenever those stats are presented in each calculation to achieve a more precise scale.

III. How DPS Works

Here's a simple calculation to figure out how DPS is derived using only 2 factors, damage and weapon speed, and to confirm what weapon speed really means.

Here's a comparative table listing the current end-game equipment for archers, which I will use in my DPS calculation example. My assumption is that weapon speed is measured in units of seconds.

http://i53.tinypic.com/ehltgx.jpg

VOID (Mega Blaster + Wraith + Jacob's Void)
damage: 180-225, dps: 202, speed: 1.0
(180+225) / 2 = 202.5 average per hit
speed of 1.0 means you will hit every 1 second
for 60 seconds, you will do 60 hits
total of average 60x202.5 or 12,150 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 12,150/60 = 202.5

Calculated DPS matches DPS shown on screen. Now let's do several calculations with 0.6 speed weapons.

SENT SLICE (Sentinel Helmet + Sentinel Armor + Shadow Slicers)
damage: 154-172, dps: 272, speed: 0.6
(154+172) / 2 = 163 average damage per hit
speed of 0.6 means you will hit every 0.6 seconds
for 60 seconds you will do 60/0.6 or 100 hits
total of average 100x163 or 16,300 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 16,300/60 = 271.67

SENT TAL (Sentinel Helmet + Sentinel Armor + Sentinel Talon + Sentinel Wing)
damage: 134-141, dps: 229, speed: 0.6
(134+141) / 2 = 137.5 average damage per hit
speed of 0.6 means you will hit every 0.6 seconds
for 60 seconds you will do 60/0.6 for 100 hits
total of average 100x137.5 or 13,750 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 13,740/60 = 229.167

Once again, DPS matches. This confirms that weapon speed does indeed carry the unit of "seconds."

When we calculate the Sunblessed set, the speed of 0.9 is actually rounded up. In actuality the bow speed is 0.85.

SUNBLESS (Overlord's Void + Wraith + Sunblessed Bow)
damage: 195-240, dps: 256, speed: 0.85
(195+240) / 2 = 217.5 average damage per hit
speed of 0.85 means you will hit every 0.85 seconds
for 60 seconds, you will do 60/0.85 or 70.59 hits
total of average 70.59x217.5 or 15,325.941 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 15,352.941/60 = 255.88

IV. How Crits Work

In this section we will explore what "critically" hitting means. What does the "crit" stat stand for? Is it a set percentage? How much more damage do you do if you critically hit an enemy?

To find out, we will attempt to hit enemies 100 times total and record the outcome of per attempted hit (skip down to conclusion if you don't want to see numeration) - first without the archer skill Focus, then with it.

Void set, Without Focus: Hit% 140, Crit 21, Damage 180-225

132 230C 122 151 141 123 118 145 308C 112
251C dodge 145 119 117 124 129 dodge 121 116
116 118 131 133 120 123 147 142 dodge 130
144 dodge 119 149 miss 124 miss 134 128 dodge
dodge 112 142 136 134 112 206C 119 117 128
151 279C 128 115 287C 221C 143 miss 128 300C
133 147 198C 121 291C 141 255C dodge 131 115
dodge miss 274C 153 116 133 109 126 129 132
154 129 113 131 dodge dodge 113 121 dodge 125
144 127 131 dodge 130 224C 111 130 257C 126

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 16
Successful hits: 84

Non-criticals landed: 70 (83.33%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 9009
Average non-critical damage: 128.7

Criticals landed: 14 (16.67%)
Critical damage range: 198-300
Total critical damage: 3581
Average critical damage: 255.8

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 12,590

Conclusion:
- Critical hits effectively double your damage (both range and average damage). 255.8 is roughly double 128.7.
- "Crit" means a set percentage of how often you critically hit an enemy. Crit rate for 84 successful hits was 16.67%, close to 21%.

We didn't have the Focus buff on, which gives birds an extra 25% hit and 25% crit chance. What happens when we attempt this with Focus?

Void set, with Focus (+25% hit, +25% Crit): Hit% 165, Crit 46, Damage 180-225

146 146 151 dodge 119 141 109 235C dodge 119
122 273C 269C 114 241C 257C dodge 122 dodge 114
dodge 132 141 141 147 149 254C miss 308C 135
273C 271C 203C 279C 270C 273C 302C 114 142 138
256C 132 262C dodge 139 296C 253C 151 225C 133
116 110 253C 223C 118 282C 122 142 miss 116
127 133 283C 307C 116 134 miss 146 129 142
miss 153 141 279C 226C 297C dodge 310C 265C miss
201C dodge 130 238C 135 dodge 295C 119 223C dodge
252C 264C 149 203C 262C 118 152 142 118 300C

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 15
Successful hits: 85

Non-criticals landed: 47 (55.29%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-153
Total non-critical damage: 6205
Average non-critical damage: 132.0

Criticals landed: 38 (44.7%)
Critical damage range: 201-310
Total critical damage: 9963
Average critical damage: 262.2

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 16,168

Conclusion:
- These results reinforce my previous results in that crit damages are double your normal. Critical hits landed was 44.7%, close to the expected value of 46.
- Also note the frequency of criticals: 44.7% with Focus compared to 16.67% without Focus. What does this mean for damage?
- With focus constantly on, I did a total of 16,168 damage compared to my 12,590 without it. Critical hits DO make a huge difference in damage. This simply means keep your buffs up all the time to do more damage over time.

Here's another caveat: My normal damage range in close encounters for the first run was 109-154, and for the second run was 109-153. Why is this range so low when it says my damage is 180-225 with the Void set? This is where enemy armor comes into play.

V. Enemy Armor and Affected Damage

It's quite possible that with different campaigns, a mob's armor changes. With the Void set equipped in Forest Haven, you would be doing constant non-critical damages from 180 to 225. Enemy armor increases with increasing campaign difficult, thus why in Shadow Caves you do a measly 30 non-critical damage.

Here's how much damage is reduced in Close Encounters, using figures from above.
Void set (damage range: 180-225, average damage 202.5)
Non-criticals landed: 117
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 15,214
Average non-critical damage: 130.0

Damage reduction at lower end: 180-109 = 71 armor
Damage reduction at higher end: 225-154 = 71 armor
Damage reduction on average damage: 202.5 - 130 = 72.5 armor

% damage reduction on lower range (or 1-109/180): 39.44%
% damage reduction on upper range (or 1-154/225): 31.55%
% damage reduction on average damage (or 130/202.5): 35.8%

As you can see, Close Encounter enemies have 71-72.5 armor, and you will consistently have reduced damage anywhere from 30% up to 40% with this particular mob. (Thanks Ellyidol for the numeric armor suggestion)

When I have more time I will figure out damage reduction in other campaigns.

VI. The Effect and Extent of Damage Multipliers (Combos)

So you're a great PL player and you already know that combos kill enemies faster than individual skills and attacks.

How vastly does the damage difference between weapons and criticals change when combos are introduced? This question was presented in one of my earlier threads regarding the debate between the new Sentinel set and the Void set. Hopefully you'll see results more clearly in the field than on paper.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/originalvoid.pnghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/sent1.png

What we know so far:
Void set gives a damage range of 180-225 and DPS of 202. Hit% is 140 and Crit% is 21.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 188-233 and DPS of 211. Hit% is 126 and Crit% is 22.

Your damage difference between the two sets is currently 8. A difference of 8 damage doesn't seem too much, does it? Let's add in a skill.

When Blast Shot is used:
Void set gives a damage range of 277-301.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 286-310.

Now you're looking at a damage difference range of 8-10. Now add the possibility of crits with Blast Shot. Remember from my previous example above that critically hitting an enemy doubles your damage.

When Blast Shot is used and you critically hit:
Void set gives a damage range of 554-602.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 572-620.

Your damage difference range is now a difference of 18.

I tested the Sentinel set in Close Encounters and recorded only my critical hits with Blast Shot: 456 474 455 477 453 468
Since there is a damage reduction of 30-40% (avg 35%) in Close Encounters, you would really be doing this: 616 640 614 644 612 632

Matches the damage range right? So these numerations are so far accurate.

Now, what about using the Cruel Blast combo? This does massive damage to a target, but what's the damage difference between Void and Sentinel when you critically hit while using Cruel Blast? From what I understand, Cruel Blast adds an extra attack similar to Blast Shot's damage when used, so you're effectively doubling your damage once more.

When Cruel Blast is used and you critically hit both attacks:
Void set gives a damage range of 554-602, twice for a total of 1108-1204 damage.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 572-620, twice for a total of 1144-1240 damage.

The difference in damage, if you're lucky enough to pull off crits on both hits, is 32 to 36.

An advantage of 8 on paper to up to 32-36 seems extremely favorable to the Sentinel set, but if we think about it objectively, it's really not that much difference in damage - Enemies in Alien Oasis 3 have hundreds of HP, and enemies in the Shadow Caves heal thousands. Perusing my prior analysis guide (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16639-Void-Set-vs.-Sentinel-Equipment-An-Unbiased-Analysis) will also show you that there is no significant difference between either sets.

Either way, the point of this exercise was to show how damage multipliers worked. I would still imagine the debate between Void and Sentinel raging on and on :)

VII. "I have a hit% of 135, why do I miss?"

This question was presented by Ravenous. Here I will try to reason out the reason why we miss or why enemies dodge our attacks, even though we have a hit% of greater than 100. We will also find out what the difference between a MISS and a DODGE is. Let's assume enemies, like us, have a DODGE stat. My hypothesis is that DODGE is a given % and that 1 dodge = -1 hit%.

Equipment used was the full Sunblessed Archer set in the AO3 map, Close Encounters. Sample size will be n = 500, or 500 recorded attempted hits.

Sunblessed Set, no Focus, Hit% 135
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total attempted hits: 500
'd' (dodge) total: 55
'm' (miss) total: 36
'a' (hit) total: 409 (82%, rounded up)

Probably enemy 'DODGE' calculation in Close Encounters = 135% - 82% = 53.
Therefore, if enemy DODGE is 53 and your hit% is 135, you go down to an 82% chance to hit an enemy.

Here's an attempt to confirm this finding of enemy DODGE.

This time, I will use the Sunblessed set with Focus, which increases my hit% up to 25%. Hit% should be 160 so if there really is a factor of enemy DODGE of 53, then my hit % should be 107%. This means that I should have no misses or dodges, right?

Sunblessed Set, with Focus, Hit% 160
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total attempted hits: 500
'd' (dodge) total: 50 (9.1% decrease compared to 55)
'm' (miss) total: 25 (30.5% decrease compared to 36)
'a' (hit) total: 425 (85%, rounded up)

These results are very confusing. My initial hypothesis of Dodge calcuation was incorrect because I failed to hit enemies almost as frequently as before. Enemy rates of DODGEing didn't decrease, and my total successful hit percentage was similar to previous results (82% versus 85%).

Westpsy suggested that it may be possible that there is a Hit% cap, or a point where it doesn't matter how much Hit% you have, you will still miss an enemy; I am inclined to believe this as well. Your true Hit% may be 82-85% in Close Encounters, and won't be able to increase beyond that.

It's interesting to note that I MISSed 30.5% less, which is very close to the 25% increased chance to hit that the archer skill Focus gives. Perhaps Focus causes you to MISS enemies less as opposed to increasing your overall chance to hit them.

So in short, the results with the Sunblessed Set are as follows (n=500):
- With a Hit% of 135, there was an 82% chance of successful hits.
- With a Hit% of 160 (Focus), there was an 85% chance of successful hits.
- There doesn't seem to be a numeric enemy DODGE factor, but a hit% cap of 82-85%.
- Focus may serve to decrease the amount of times you MISS an enemy.

These results closely match the Void set results from my Critical Hits section (n=100):
- With a Hit% of 140, there was an 84% chance of successful hits.
- With a Hit% of 165 (Focus), there was an 85% chance of successful hits.

I will now try my results with the Sentinel of Death set, which has a generally lower hit% than both Void and Sunblessed Sets.

Sentinel, without Focus, Hit% 126
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total attempted hits: 500
'd' (dodge) total: 54
'm' (miss) total: 18
'a' (hit) total: 428 (85.6%)

Even when Sentinel was used without Focus, it produced a result that was equal or no better than the Void set. This confirms that there does seem to be a Hit% cap when Hit% reaches 100...which pretty much means that the value of Hit% is useless beyond 100!

It's interesting to also note that the Sentinel set had a much lower MISS total compared to the Void and Sunblessed despite a lower Hit%, which I can't explain at all, and I'm tired from recording 1500 sets of values :)

http://i55.tinypic.com/2r3ck77.jpg

So from the data suggested, here's my conclusion:
> Sentinel, Void, and Sunblessed Sets all have very similar hit rates on the field, despite what their numbers suggest.
> There may be a hit% cap that causes players with Hit% > 100 to miss enemies.
> Rates of enemy DODGEing does not seem affected by different weapon set, or Hit%. However, the rate of MISSing enemies between sets is variable.

VIII. The Search for a Crit Cap

Much thanks to WhoIsThis for testing this with me.

In this section, we try to establish if a possible cap to crit exists; our main reason to test this out is simply because a hit% cap exists. At the moment, the highest possible crit value can only be achieved by a mage due to their powerful +60% crit buff. As such, we used WhoIsThis' pure INT mage to test this out. This was tested in Alien Oasis III: Close Encounters. Attacks were ONLY recorded while the mage was buffed for 94% crit.

Pure INT mage stats: Lv 56, 1/2/330 stat distribution
Pure INT mage equips: Mastermind Wand/Bracer combo
Crit: 34% unbuffed, 94% buffed

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Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 107
Dodge: 14
Successful hits: 93

Non-criticals landed: 3 (3.2%)
Criticals landed: 90 (96.8%)

So far, no evidence of a crit cap less than 94% crit exists. If a crit cap does exist, it will be much higher than the hit% cap.

Since the sample number was small compared to the hit% data sample numbers, we will probably have to record more values down in the future.

X. The Difference Between Damage and DPS, and Which To Choose

This question was frequently in the back of my mind when I first started playing PL. The devs decided to put the value of DPS there for a reason. If you've been following my guide from the beginning, we know how damage, weapon speed, and DPS are related (please look back at section II for this example).

Often times during gameplay I have been presented with the choice of choosing one of the following weapons - choosing between higher damage, or higher DPS (but never both). For our sake of example, we will apply values to them:
1. Weapon with low damage range (50-60), high DPS (70)
2. Weapon with high damage range (65-75), low DPS (50)

Which weapon is best to kill bosses with? Look at DPS first.

Let's say a boss fight drags on for 30 seconds. The boss has a lot of health and doesn't go down easily. Choosing the first weapon yields you a total of (70x30) damage, or 2,100 damage. Choosing the second weapon yields you a total of (50x30) damage, or 1,500 damage. Seems clear you'd want to choose the first weapon right?

It doesn't really matter what the damage is - it's very easy to see in an extended boss fight (bosses with a lot of health) that DPS is much better. This finding is more muddled when it comes to attacking normal enemies with much less health.

Attacking an enemy with 200 health takes roughly 2.85 seconds with the first weapon and 4 seconds with the second weapon, but if you have a chance to crit with the second weapon for 150 damage, you've ripped a nice chunk of the enemy's health already.

Case in point, weapons with higher damage ranges when used with damage multipliers will help eliminate normal enemies faster than weapons with higher DPS.

Edit (1/19/11):
I did not mention that the factor of enemy armor does in fact cause a favorable shift towards damage as opposed to DPS (Thanks to Kalielle, Xymorg, and FluffNStuff for pointing this out).

I will quote and use FluffNStuff and Xymorg's examples (respectively):

That section completely ignores the armor part, and what you want to take into account is effective dps.
Consider two weapons:
First has 50 damage and a speed of .5
Second has 85 damage and a speed of 1
So, basic dps is 100 on first, 85 on second.
But now consider an enemy with 30 Armor:
First is now (50 - 30) * 2 = 20
Second is 85 - 30 = 55
So the effective dps of the first is 20 and the second is 55.
This does not even take into account the effect of damage on skills, but that gets extremely complicated because of the two hand skill add nerf.

Unless the mob has armor.

The dps only counts if the hit causes damage. For mobs with armor greater than what dmg you rolled, you get the big goose egg, so its like a miss.

Vs armor of 100 (I guessed at the speeds to approximate your example of 100dps slow v 140 dps fast):

140-165 speed 1.5 is 40 to 65 realized per hit so avg 52.5 x 21.4 hits in 30 secs = 1123.5 dmg in encounter

100-125 speed 0.8 is 0 to 25 realized per hit so avg 12.5 x 37.5 hits in 30 secs= 468.75 dmg in encounter

Ya, its extreme example, but as the armor becomes a larger percent of the per hit damage, dps becomes more & more misleading since it's calculated against armor zero & thus favors the speed.

To recap their point, when an enemy has a large amount of armor, both damage and DPS will be reduced, but DPS will be affected much more. I think it's easier to see it using this equation:

Avg damage = unaffected by enemy armor (what you see on your stats window)
Effective damage = avg damage - enemy armor
DPS = effective damage / weapon speed

If enemy armor is LARGE:
↓Effective damage = avg damage - ↑enemy armor
↓ DPS = ↓ effective damage / weapon speed

If the factor of enemy armor is applied, DPS will be affected, but NOT the damage range you see in your stats window. Thus, DPS can be misleading at times.

However, it's important to note that although enemy armor does play a role in reducing your damage and DPS, your character is equipped with skills that debuffs armor on enemies to a certain percentage. Combined with other party members' skills, it may be possible to completely strip an enemy's armor, so that the factor of enemy armor is no longer of any significance to neither damage nor DPS. Keep in mind that the rate of debuffing an enemy's armor can vary from party to party based on individual player skill.

XI. Hidden Weapon Skills aka Procs

There are few weapon types that carry a "proc" or basically a hidden weapon skill that debuffs an enemy, or adds an elemental attack. BeardedBear has a useful index that describes each proc and its respective weapon types, so I'll just link you to his thread (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?9730-Weapon-proc-index.).

Not every weapon has a hidden proc, and some pinks may have hidden procs as well, but such weapons can be useful because they allow you to debuff enemies without using skills at all - each proc is activated at a random set percentage while you are attacking normally.

XII. "My skill has a range of 8m...what does this mean, and how far exactly is 8m (8 meters) in this game?"

Many skills have a range or an area of effect described in "m" which stands for meters, but this is unfortunately a very abstract way to describe the distance your skill actually reaches.

Here's a way to measure an approximate distance of how far your skill can reach.

This is Thorn Wall at level 6, which carries a range of 10m. As reference points, I am in-between the chest and a bush, and Thorn Wall was able to hit the chest at this furthest distance:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/thornwall.png

This is a xbow used that carries with it a range of 12m. Note that the xbow was able to hit the chest right where the bush is, a little farther than Thorn Wall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/xbow.png

Here's the first picture again but with range denoted. Keep into account that depth perception is a factor here, and as you go further away from the center (my character), range is longer than it appears:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/revised.png

XI. Algorithm for a Successful or Failed Attack

When you attack an enemy, the game follows a specific algorithm that determines the outcome of the attack:
1. You will MISS the attack
2. The enemy will DODGE the attack
3. You will damage the enemy
4. You will critically damage the enemy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

Hit% roll is based off of your hit%. There is a probable cap to this value (<100% despite your hit% value).
Enemy dodge % roll is an unknown variable for each enemy.
Crit% roll is based off of your crit. Unsure of a cap existence at the moment.
Critical damage = effective damage x2
Effective damage = damage - enemy armor

I did not include weapon proc in this, as they activate at a low random occurrence. The proc most likely adds at the very end, after damage/critical damage is calculated.

Thanks MoonYeol for giving his insight in this!

XIII. Thx and Revision History

As always, thank you readers for your positive comments and criticism. I will continue to make guides until I move on from PL.

1/15/11: Guide created
Hit%/Miss/Dodge section added
1/19/11: Edited Damage/DPS section
2/14/11: Proc and range sections added
2/16/11: Algorithm for successful/failed attack added
3/4/11: Attribute calculation added

Beanmachine

01-15-2011, 04:31 AM

first!!! nice job

Ellyidol

01-15-2011, 04:37 AM

Bravo! VERY well explained and true.

Regarding the Enemy Armor, I couldn't really tell if your numbers show 1 armor = 1 damage reduction? I've always just thought about it that way, I don't know if that will help.

But very well done!

Physiologic

01-15-2011, 04:56 AM

Elly - I am not sure what you mean by 1 armor = 1 damage reduction. Is there a source on actual values regarding enemy armor?

Ellyidol

01-15-2011, 05:07 AM

Ellyidol

01-15-2011, 05:16 AM

I think there's only one way to find out. In PVP. Get attacker to use same weapon throughout the tests and defender to switch armors with armor value of 1-10. Then repeat the same way as you did. Land 100 hits on the defender for each different armor equipped. Need to take into consideration the base armor ( defender ) and damage ( attacker ) even without any items equipped.

True, but it raises the question if PvP is the same as PvE. Numbers there would only be valid for PvP, until a dev confirms that PvE numbers = PvP numbers.

This is just coming from past experiences in games where they add certain reductions in PvP based from PvE numbers.

Physiologic

01-15-2011, 05:22 AM

I don't have any numbers to show either, I've just constantly read and based from that assumption ever since I started.

I believe TT did some tests in PvP and showed that armour does 5/7 or 5/8 reduction or something, have to dig up the thread as it was awhile back.

I just found it easier to think of 1 armour = 1 damage reduction since mob damages don't really tend to multiply by huge amounts when you also have no armor on.

Then again it'd bring up how much minimum damage mobs do. X_X I have no certainty whatsoever, just if its useful. I could be dead wrong, and wouldn't be surprised if I am. Lol

Oh I see what you mean, I just attributed the damage reduction through a percentage since I calculated it that way, and its easier to see as a reference to damage you do. You meant placing a set numeric range of reduced damage instead:

Void set (damage range: 180-225, average damage 202.5)
Non-criticals landed: 117
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 15,214
Average non-critical damage: 130.0

Damage reduction at lower end: 180-109 = 71 armor
Damage reduction at higher end: 225-154 = 71 armor
Damage reduction on average damage: 202.5 - 130 = 72.5 armor

Either way works, but thanks for pointing that out. Close Encounter enemies have 71-72.5 armor, which causes an overall damage reduction from 31.55% to 39.44%.

The 5/7 and 5/8 reduction may seems way too high...maybe armor values differ between PvE and PvP?

Also, I hope I somehow answered your question in my other thread

I'm guessing with higher DPS/base damage, along with other debuffs from other classes, along with that "Super debuff + buff" combo, if that extra 11 DPS and 8 damage would go through a lot of multipliers? Even more when a crit happens with/without the group buffs/debuffs.

I didn't apply the Break Armor debuff as well as buffs/debuffs from other classes. Not entirely sure which cancels out the other, or if these buffs/debuffs stack...
Break Armor 20 pt. armor reduction
Nightmare 25 pt. armor reduction
etc.

Is Nightmare 25 pt = 25% or 25 points?

I think there's only one way to find out. In PVP. Get attacker to use same weapon throughout the tests and defender to switch armors with armor value of 1-10. Then repeat the same way as you did. Land 100 hits on the defender for each different armor equipped. Need to take into consideration the base armor ( defender ) and damage ( attacker ) even without any items equipped.

I'll probably set something like this up to confirm this whole armor business since I am unsure myself. Thanks for the suggestion!

xuz

01-15-2011, 06:01 AM

interesting i read the whole thing did all the mathes...
also amazing thread.. helps alot

icantgetkills

01-15-2011, 06:02 AM

interesting i read the whole thing did all the mathes...
also amazing thread.. helps alot

fail post gtfo

Relytekal

01-15-2011, 06:15 AM

Very nice work! So does this mean as you get to the harder map areas the bow set is alot better due to the mobs armor? This is how I am reading it.....

Ellyidol

01-15-2011, 07:31 AM

Yup, thats what I meant.

I actually prefer it in your calculations, as % reductions rather than actual figures. Sadly, PL doesn't use the 100% def type of reduction. (the amount of def you have from 1-100 is the % of damage reduction).

This system has its advantages too, I think. I like how I can easily tell the difference in armour from a cosmos to a rift set. Rather be seeing high def numbers than small % ones :P Just a self-fulfilment thing. Lol

Ravenous

01-15-2011, 09:17 AM

Excellent work. Now explain to us what hit % means and how it can be above 100%. :)

-Rav

Physiologic

01-15-2011, 03:03 PM

I wish the devs didn't put percentages over 100 like that. I'll try to decipher what that means, and how it's related to an enemy's innate DODGE/MISS capability.

Westpsy

01-15-2011, 03:31 PM

Nice! In regards to the hit percentage, I found it interesting that without focus you hit the mobs 84% of the time and with focus you only hit the mobs 85% of the time.

Void set, Without Focus: Hit% 140, Crit 21, Damage 180-225
Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 16
Successful hits: 84

Void set, with Focus (+25% hit, +25% Crit): Hit% 165, Crit 46, Damage 180-225
Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 15
Successful hits: 85

Though the sample size is small, I believe this suggests there is a cap to how often you can hit the mob. This has been my experience in other mmo's, and if there is a hit% cap, then it would greatly diminish the value of overloading on hit%, especially in pve. In pratical terms(but not counting weapon range), these findings seem to give an advantage to sunblessed and death over the megablaster. Seeing you do all this work makes me want to help out, so when I have some time away from class I'll sit down and run some numbers to get a larger sample. Great job Physiologic!

Sky../

01-15-2011, 03:35 PM

Interesting. I always thought critical hits means enemy armor was ignored for that hit.

Physiologic

01-15-2011, 04:26 PM

Nice! In regards to the hit percentage, I found it interesting that without focus you hit the mobs 84% of the time and with focus you only hit the mobs 85% of the time.

Though the sample size is small, I believe this suggests there is a cap to how often you can hit the mob. This has been my experience in other mmo's, and if there is a hit% cap, then it would greatly diminish the value of overloading on hit%, especially in pve. In pratical terms(but not counting weapon range), these findings seem to give an advantage to sunblessed and death over the megablaster. Seeing you do all this work makes me want to help out, so when I have some time away from class I'll sit down and run some numbers to get a larger sample. Great job Physiologic!

Thanks for your input! I am currently running a sample size n = 500 now with the Sunblessed set, and I will attempt again using the Death set to see if hit% matters. From the data I'm seeing it looks like you're right, there seems to be a hit% cap.

kobebean

01-15-2011, 08:32 PM

Physiologic

01-15-2011, 08:53 PM

"In reality, the Sunblessed Bow should have a DPS of 242, not 256. Either I am missing some other factor here, or the devs may need to change this small problem. Perhaps it has something to do with the Blinding Shot proc that the bow has."

-maybe set bonus that we don't quite know about?

The current sunblessed set stated is:

+3 h/s, +10 DMG, +7 Armor. Requires: Overlord's Helmet of the Void, Wraith Armor of the Void, Sunblessed Bow of the Void

When you're wearing only Overlord's Helmet of the Void + Wraith Armor of the Void, stats look like this:
2 274 1 125 14 10 501 5 500 4 49-55 44 70
Highlighting bow (but not equipping gives us):
2 285 1 133 16 13 501 6 500 6 183-228 242 76
Equipping bow (and thus completing the set) actually gives us:
2 285 1 135 16 14 501 9 500 6 195-240 256 83

So instead of +3 h/s, +10 DMG, +7 Armor, it really gives us
+2 %Hit, +1 Dodge, +3 h/s, +12 Damage, +7 Armor

Thanks for bringing that up, the set bonuses for Sunblessed is not what it seems. But it still doesn't account for the problem in DPS...

drewcapu

01-16-2011, 02:02 AM

Physiologic

01-16-2011, 02:55 AM

It'd be interesting to try to track dodges and misses in PvP. Mainly to possibly confirm that there is some kind of hit % cap (in Close Encounters etc.). Perhaps such a cap wouldn't exist in PvP and the Hit% vs Dodge% would become truer?

For clarification: as far as I can tell, Dodge (and Crit) are supposed to be percentages, right?
I know on the left side stats it doesn't show as such, but they do show up as percentages in Dex Armor and increase the stats accordingly.

If anyone is willing to provide results with the sample size n = 200 that would be nice. I only twink PvP and do not wish to ruin my main char's PvP ratio.

And yes, Crits are tested to be set percentages. I never tested Dodge out, but I would lean towards percentages as well. May test it out in the near future.

TOASTYTorpedo

01-16-2011, 04:47 AM

kobebean

01-16-2011, 12:05 PM

The current sunblessed set stated is:

When you're wearing only Overlord's Helmet of the Void + Wraith Armor of the Void, stats look like this:
2 274 1 125 14 10 501 5 500 4 49-55 44 70
Highlighting bow (but not equipping gives us):
2 285 1 133 16 13 501 6 500 6 183-228 242 76
Equipping bow (and thus completing the set) actually gives us:
2 285 1 135 16 14 501 9 500 6 195-240 256 83

So instead of +3 h/s, +10 DMG, +7 Armor, it really gives us
+2 %Hit, +1 Dodge, +3 h/s, +12 Damage, +7 Armor

Thanks for bringing that up, the set bonuses for Sunblessed is not what it seems. But it still doesn't account for the problem in DPS...

I see what you mean. Maybe additional (+2 dmg and + some factor of 2% hit rate)x 1/shot speed brings it closer?

Physiologic

01-16-2011, 10:47 PM

when you tested the hit% and dodge rate of the close encounters mobs, did you notice any differences in crit that could've had a direction correlation to the hit/dodge. what i mean is, rather than a hit% cap, the focus spell (increasing crit) could've caused you to miss / be dodged more due to more potential chances to crit.

I unfortunately didn't record the crit rates when I was testing Hit%/Dodge/Miss on enemies, I just decided to record successful hits (as opposed to identifying them as non-crit and crit). I believe Focus serves two functions when your hit% is less than the cap: it increases your crit rate and your hit rate. When your hit% is above the cap, then Focus only serves one function: increasing your crit rate (since hit rate doesn't matter anymore since you reached cap).

I see what you mean. Maybe additional (+2 dmg and + some factor of 2% hit rate)x 1/shot speed brings it closer?

I could calculate the exact damage the Sunblessed Set is supposed to give to give us a DPS of 256, but for now I will assume the devs made a mistake.

Zerious

01-17-2011, 12:12 AM

Yet another well-made guide to explain. Now a lot of PL players might not understand this stuff at first, but they've played the game, and maybe experimented with different builds (dex affected) then they'll be back here and say "Oh s**t, I get it now XD"....... Like me >.> +1 :D

Zeus

01-17-2011, 12:35 AM

I believe Cinco stated earlier the DODGE has no effect on hit percent. You are guaranteed to hit if you have above 100 percent hit, provided you are not debuffed, but this is when dodge comes into play. In reality you were supposed to hit but outside actions allowed your target to dodge it, thus negating your hit percent for that hit. This also makes me perplexed onto why we still miss when hit percent is above 100 percent even when buffed up over 100 percent with no negative effects on our character. Perhaps it may be a glitch or bug that the dev's never noticed? I didn't see it happening until after the developers nerfed the dex attribute point so we didn't have crazy high hit percentage like 200 percent.

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 12:55 AM

So from the data suggested, here's my conclusion:
> Sentinel, Void, and Sunblessed Sets all have very similar hit rates on the field, despite what their numbers suggest.
> There may be a hit% cap that causes players with Hit% > 100 to miss enemies.
> Rates of enemy DODGEing does not seem affected by different weapon set, or Hit%. However, the rate of MISSing enemies between sets is variable.

My findings reinforce what Cinco said about DODGE (which were very similar on the large sample size of n=500 on all three sets), but what intrigues me are the variations in MISS.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2r3ck77.jpg

Dodge rates are nearly the same (this may be a standard, independent and fixed variable) but MISS rates are all over the place, and does not correlate with Hit%.

IMO, they should change Hit% into a more useful number, because after a certain point the stat becomes quite useless to have around due to the 82-85% Hit% cap in Alien Oasis 3: Close Encounters.

Zerious

01-17-2011, 02:59 AM

to put in simpler terms, dodge is your character's own little negative hit rate for enemies? Like the difference? idk because these are all statistics, which mean nothing when actually fighting; the outcomes are only EXPECTED to be what we see through the stats. Example: We only EXPECT with an 80% hit rate (vs 0 dodge) that our char will hit 4/5 times (80% of the time), but in reality, it doesn't work that way. Say you missed one of those 5 shots right off the bat, does that mean you're guaranteed to make the next 4? No. EACH SHOT has an 80% chance of hitting. They're independent "trials of events" that are not affected by the last occurrence. Same thing with Critical hits; 50% does not mean every other hit is guaranteed to be a crit, it just gives you an idea of how likely it is to happen. heads or tails, no amount of heads will affect the next coin toss, nor were the previous tosses affected by the tosses made. Same with these here mechanics :) *bows* lol jkkkkkk

Seratonin

01-17-2011, 03:34 AM

The current sunblessed set stated is:

When you're wearing only Overlord's Helmet of the Void + Wraith Armor of the Void, stats look like this:
2 274 1 125 14 10 501 5 500 4 49-55 44 70
Highlighting bow (but not equipping gives us):
2 285 1 133 16 13 501 6 500 6 183-228 242 76
Equipping bow (and thus completing the set) actually gives us:
2 285 1 135 16 14 501 9 500 6 195-240 256 83

So instead of +3 h/s, +10 DMG, +7 Armor, it really gives us
+2 %Hit, +1 Dodge, +3 h/s, +10+2 Damage, +7 Armor

Thanks for bringing that up, the set bonuses for Sunblessed is not what it seems. But it still doesn't account for the problem in DPS...

The 11 added into DEX gives you the rest of the mysterious set increase.

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 04:13 AM

The 11 added into DEX gives you the rest of the mysterious set increase.

I believe the Dex addition is already factored into the equation and that the "mysterious set increase" is due to extra bonuses. I'm more inclined to believe this because DEX doesn't affect dodge, STR does.

Look at this example of the Void Set:

Wearing Wraith Void + Jacob's Void only:
2 274 1 125 14 10 501 5 500 4 49-55 44 71
Highlighting Mega Blaster Void (not equipping):
2 285 1 133 16 13 501 6 500 6 168-213 191 77
Equipping Mega Blaster Void (completing the set):
2 285 1 140 21 14 501 8 500 9 180-225 202 82

Void Bonus expected: +5% Hit, +5% Crit, +2 H/s, +2 M/s, +10 Damage, +5 Armor according to Yanis' thread (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?8939-Pinks-with-Stats-and-Pictures-Alien-Oasis-Part-III)
Void Bonus given: +7% Hit, +5% Crit, +1 Dodge, +2 H/S, +3 M/s, +12 Damage, +5 Armor

Dodge is increased, and M/s (which is affected by INT, and INT wasn't raised at all) increased, but these aren't affected by increases in DEX at all.

Example of the Cyber set:

Wearing Cyber Skull Void + Cyber Armor Void only:
2 274 1 125 14 10 501 5 500 4 49-55 44 75
Highlighting Cyber Blaster Void (but not equipping):
2 285 1 133 16 13 501 6 500 6 174-219 197 81
Equipping Cyber Blaster Void (completing the set):
2 285 1 135 16 14 501 7 500 6 183-228 205 84

Cyber Bonus expected: +2% Hit, +1% Dodge, +1 H/s, +9 Damage, +3 Armor (source (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?8939-Pinks-with-Stats-and-Pictures-Alien-Oasis-Part-III))
Cyber Bonus given: +2% Hit, +1% Dodge, +1 H/s, +9 damage, +3 armor

Here, Cyber checks out with its expected value (had nothing to do with 11 dex increase).

Conclusion:
> Sunblessed Archer set is inaccurate
> Void set bonuses were updated at some point

Echelong

01-17-2011, 09:38 AM

Great guide hope the devs sticky your guides.

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 02:49 PM

Great guide hope the devs sticky your guides.

I'm satisfied as long as someone learns something new :) Or if this helps facilitate discussion on how game mechanics work (which I am interested in).

Echelong

01-17-2011, 03:20 PM

I'm satisfied as long as someone learns something new :) Or if this helps facilitate discussion on how game mechanics work (which I am interested in).

I still remember about damage and dps from WoW but here weapon speed and damage also affects everyone's skills. I have to try slower vs faster weapons and how much the damage of skills is affected and if this affects healing too. If you have checked this let me know.

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 03:32 PM

I still remember about damage and dps from WoW but here weapon speed and damage also affects everyone's skills. I have to try slower vs faster weapons and how much the damage of skills is affected and if this affects healing too. If you have checked this let me know.

To my knowledge, damage seen on your skills list is directly adjusted and correlated to the current set of equips you have on.

I had briefly thought about how weapon speed would affect skill speed but since skills are currently spammable without any delay, I don't think skills currently has any dependence on weapon speed. Since the factor of weapon speed activates after you use the skill and all skills have a cool-down time, weapon speed is more or less negated. I just spammed all my skills on my 0.6 weapon speed talon and my 1.0 weapon speed blaster and there was no difference in execution time.

I'm unsure how WoW works, but if weapon speed's definition changed in PL - let's say weapon speed was the actual speed that your skill/attack travels (and not the time in-between attacks, which it currently is), then weapon speed would be a huge determinant on overall damage/DPS. But all skills/attacks between all 3 characters travel at the same rate at this time.

Echelong

01-17-2011, 03:37 PM

Not the time but the damage itself. If you test out a weapon with similar DPS but different speed the slower (or faster not really sure right now) weapon tends to give you more damage on your skills. The weapon damage also affects how much damage your skills do. You can check part of this by equipping a weapon then go to the skills section and check the damage done then change to another weapon and see the difference. I want to test this on the field though to see if it is as the damage on skills says.

Edit: This is why a lower dps weapon but that improves your skills damage might be better in a boss fight than a lower dps one. This is my opinion since I haven't tested this as thoroughly as you have.

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 03:42 PM

Not the time but the damage itself. If you test out a weapon with similar DPS but different speed the slower (or faster not really sure right now) weapon tends to give you more damage on your skills. The weapon damage also affects how much damage your skills do. You can check part of this by equipping a weapon then go to the skills section and check the damage done then change to another weapon and see the difference. I want to test this on the field though to see if it is as the damage on skills says.

I'm aware of the weapon damage = skill damage correlation. You can test it on the field regarding damage, just remember enemies at higher leveled campaigns have an innate damage reduction.

I'm not sure about the first part of what you said...can you show me figures? I currently can't go on PL because I'm texting :(

Echelong

01-17-2011, 03:44 PM

drewcapu

01-17-2011, 03:47 PM

Similar DPS, but the base damage will be different betweeen slower and faster weapons.

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 04:26 PM

Yep almost the same here but I am working so this is a kind of sneaky forum thingy I have here. Ill add you and let you know.

Here is part of it the stats are from Drain Life Enchantress skill

Shadow Hax of Hate (0.8 Speed)
222-316

Limbchopper of Destiny (0.9 Speed)
245-339

Harpoon of destiny (1.0 Speed) This has the weakest dps and damage.
235-329

I am told the Zuraz Schock lance gives better damage due to the speed which is 1.5 speed I believe. This are the most comparable weapons I have at the moment also have to test this with 2H weapons. But my mind is on taxes atm so hard to get calculations at home when all I want is to relax -_-

Is it possible if you could give me the damage range and DPS as you see on your avatar screen?

Edit:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/untitled.jpg

Nothing else except the weapons are equipped. So yeah...this seems like it will take quite a long time to figure out.

drewcapu

01-17-2011, 04:58 PM

Too lazy to go to a hotspot. Here's the damage from Yanis' helpful threads:
Hax 85-94, 0.8 speed
Limbchopper 115-135, 0.9 speed
Harpoon 110-150, 1.0 speed
Zuraz 130-162, 1.3 speed

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 05:01 PM

Too lazy to go to a hotspot. Here's the damage from Yanis' helpful threads:
Hax 85-94, 0.8 speed
Limbchopper 115-135, 0.9 speed
Harpoon 110-150, 1.0 speed
Zuraz 130-162, 1.3 speed

I'd need these damages to correspond to Shemrom's stat window exactly, and not everyone's build is the same, unless you can take those and equip it yourself and give me the figures you have?

drewcapu

01-17-2011, 05:40 PM

Physiologic

01-17-2011, 05:49 PM

Looking at your numbers I would guess that speed (or dps) doesn't necessarily affect the skill damage as much as the base damage of the equipped weapon, both high and low damage, does. Otherwise, there would be a much bigger increase when Sunblessed Bow is equipped in comparison to SentGun, but instead they're almost identical.

That's the one thing that sticks out right away.

I'll try to help look at the numbers a little bit more.

Thanks for your table :)

I'm really stumped at how weapon speed and damage affect skill damage, because the increase in damage is so different on all weapons. I'll probably play around with these numbers more later after dinner. Not sure if anyone's figured them out yet; too lazy to dig up old posts.

drewcapu

01-17-2011, 06:00 PM

Best bet is probably to try to figure it out based on void/cyber/sentgun since they all have the same speed. At least that'll take out speed from the equation (for the time being).

What's messing with me is how Sunblessed Bow can give Blast a high of 293 while SentGun gives Blast a high of 294. Perhaps here's a case where speed plays a part? It almost looks like there's some kind of cap to how much a skill can be increased, in terms of damage, regardless of future possible weapons? Ugh. I hope not.

Maybe the extra Dex and Crit from SentGun plays a role?

Physiologic

01-18-2011, 01:22 AM

TwinkTastical

01-18-2011, 01:47 AM

Props for.... Having this much time on your hands ^.^

Echelong

01-18-2011, 09:35 AM

I'd need these damages to correspond to Shemrom's stat window exactly, and not everyone's build is the same, unless you can take those and equip it yourself and give me the figures you have?

The damage I put where not from the weapon itself but from my drain life skill. What I am talking is that depending on the weapon and weapon speed you dish out more damage with the skills. I am not talking about weapon base damage.

Arterra

01-18-2011, 09:47 AM

awesome... if you do in fact make a list of campaign armor values, it would need to be its own thread. very important facts there everyone wants to know.
though you summed up the armor values of the campaign into a single value... i cant remember the mob types there, but is it only mummies or something? going to plasma pyramid it is clear to see that the three different colored djin mobs have different armor values, even more pronounced in shadow caves.

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

01-18-2011, 09:59 AM

Excellent work. Now explain to us what hit % means and how it can be above 100%. :)

-Rav
hit% can be above 100% because the enemys have a dodge rate like us. you subtract the enemys dodge by your hit%...or at leastsomething like that i can assume. but we cant know for sure because the dodge is not a percentage like the hit rate. i just know its so we can have 100% hit on enemys that have a high dodge rate.

Arterra

01-18-2011, 10:00 AM

hit% can be above 100% because the enemys have a dodge rate like us. you subtract the enemys dodge by your hit%...or at leastsomething like that i can assume. but we cant know for sure because the dodge is not a percentage like the hit rate. i just know its so we can have 100% hit on enemys that have a high dodge rate.

didnt he JUST put doubt into this??

Echelong

01-18-2011, 10:18 AM

Kalielle

01-18-2011, 11:18 AM

Wow! Nice work!!! One rarely gets to see something this thorough and comprehensive. Thank you for all the testing, this is amazing!

Kalielle

01-18-2011, 11:29 AM

One thing I'd be curious to know is whether the conclusion in the last part of the analysis, about dps vs damage, changes once you factor in reduction in damage from armor. In theory a higher damage weapon is better than a lower damage one of equal dps against mobs with high armor. That's because the armor reduction is applied for every hit, so for the higher speed weapon the reduction is applied more times than for the lower speed one (since there are more hits). So my guess is that against mobs with high armor like in AO3, at some point a gun/bow may be better than a talon even against bosses.

Physiologic

01-18-2011, 12:06 PM

The damage I put where not from the weapon itself but from my drain life skill. What I am talking is that depending on the weapon and weapon speed you dish out more damage with the skills. I am not talking about weapon base damage.

Not weapon base damage - I ask for the damage seen in the left-hand side of your character as such:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/snap20110111_221703.png
This is to compare the change in damage on normal damage range versus skill damage range.

awesome... if you do in fact make a list of campaign armor values, it would need to be its own thread. very important facts there everyone wants to know.
though you summed up the armor values of the campaign into a single value... i cant remember the mob types there, but is it only mummies or something? going to plasma pyramid it is clear to see that the three different colored djin mobs have different armor values, even more pronounced in shadow caves.

The armor values are just for the mummies and desert nomads in Close Encounters, I apologize for not specifying. I can develop armor values, percentage of damage reduction values, and possibly even health values as well per campaign, though this may take quite some time to publish.

One thing I'd be curious to know is whether the conclusion in the last part of the analysis, about dps vs damage, changes once you factor in reduction in damage from armor. In theory a higher damage weapon is better than a lower damage one of equal dps against mobs with high armor. That's because the armor reduction is applied for every hit, so for the higher speed weapon the reduction is applied more times than for the lower speed one (since there are more hits). So my guess is that against mobs with high armor like in AO3, at some point a gun/bow may be better than a talon even against bosses.

Xymorg was helpful in pointing this out in this thread (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16244-Comprehensive-Archer-Skills-Guide)and I do agree that at some critical armor value, a weapon with high damage/low DPS and a weapon with low damage/high DPS will be equal, and above that armor value the high damage/low DPS weapon will win out. But keep in mind that value is assumed without debuffs; it may be quite possible to strip an enemy from its armor to a large enough percentage as to make the high DPS weapon more efficient than the low DPS weapon against a high armor enemy. The extent of "armor stripping" an enemy is currently an unknown value range, so that would have to be calculated as well to render my statement true or false :)

FluffNStuff

01-18-2011, 12:14 PM

Physiologic

01-18-2011, 12:22 PM

Have not gotten a chance to read through all the comments yet, but wanted to point a couple things out:
1) Dodge / Hit.
I posed this question to Cinco in the chat and the answer was that there is a roll for hit/miss and a separate roll for for dodge, but hit dodge can effect the first roll and hit percentage can effect the second. As to the full effect, he was not giving that information up, as the actual equations are 'proprietary'.
Also, Enemies DO debuff.

2) DPS / Damage
That section completely ignores the armor part, and what you want to take into account is effective dps.
Consider two weapons:
First has 50 damage and a speed of .5
Second has 85 damage and a speed of 1
So, basic dps is 100 on first, 85 on second.
But now consider an enemy with 30 Armor:
First is now (50 - 30) * 2 = 20
Second is 85 - 30 = 55
So the effective dps of the first is 20 and the second is 55.
This does not even take into account the effect of damage on skills, but that gets extremely complicated because of the two hand skill add nerf.

It appears the dodge roll as Cinco stated is some set value unaffected by any other user factor, as it is nearly consistent in all three weapon sets in a huge sample size (n=500, n=500, n=500). The miss roll however is extremely variable in at instances where hit% is above 100, but does not correlate with hit% itself. Perhaps I haven't had a larger sample size to detect a change yet. And my work is to figure out such proprietary equations :)

Edit: Unless you meant he said DODGE in our stat window means it's a factor that influences enemy dodge, not our dodge? o.o

And the damage/DPS with enemy armor I will edit. I did not consider that a factor as I was editing the guide (see my previous comment on this thread) but thank you for providing more proof that armor does change things around!

roszondas3

01-29-2011, 10:35 PM

Have noti. Read the entire post to see if this idea was made... but. What if it uses a system similar to dungeons and dragons. I.e. a dice roll of some sort. In d&d a 20 is always a hit. And a 1. Is a miss. Maybe there is a similar system?

Physiologic

01-29-2011, 11:06 PM

The reported hit% was too consistent beyond a fixed 50/50 rate, so unless it was a dice that favors one side over the other sides...

In addition, I firmly believe that if you do indeed have a lower hit%, let's say around 50% (as opposed to 135% that I had), the number of either MISS or DODGE will be larger.

Addicted

02-09-2011, 03:02 PM

Wow! Amazing work... takes me back to research methods and stats classes in college.

-Addicted

WhoIsThis

02-10-2011, 12:46 AM

Physiologic

02-10-2011, 03:23 AM

For maximum effective damage, it seems the ideal would be a long range, slow firing weapon, but with very high damage per hit. Furthermore, a significant critical hit percentage is more important than hit %.

Hypothetical question - what if crit were say, 125% - would each shot land a critical?

Im 100% positive the answer is no, it'll make the game way too easy. There is most likely a fixed cap like the hit%, and with the new gear having loads of crit %, we may be able to determine this specific value.

Ravenous

02-10-2011, 07:53 AM

Physiologic, I saw you in game and you are using new gear. Any chances that we could get the new gear added to your original spreadsheet? :)

Physiologic

02-10-2011, 02:12 PM

Physiologic, I saw you in game and you are using new gear. Any chances that we could get the new gear added to your original spreadsheet? :)

I only have a mixture of lv 51/53 pinks that I am currently wearing. If I make a comparison of the new pinks I'll most likely end up doing lv 55s only, since that is what's considered end-game (the lv 51 and 53 armor have the same stats but the weapon damage is different between levels).

Expect to see all this here: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16244-Comprehensive-Archer-Skills-Guide

noobmigo

02-10-2011, 02:14 PM

I wonder if armor affects crit chance as well.

Physiologic

02-10-2011, 02:57 PM

I wonder if armor affects crit chance as well.

I believe armor only affects damage dealt; you can see what Royce has to say about that since he knows more than me regarding mechanics :p

WhoIsThis

02-10-2011, 09:28 PM

I think that I once heard someone officially say that armor and critical damage probability are independent in the game. The person sounded very knowledgeable, although I really do wish that I had something more solid to cite with. It's entirely possible that a patch may have changed that. Still, I think that unless a dev says otherwise or someone else has some solid information to the contrary, we can safely assume that they are independent.

Perhaps there is an upper limit to crit. What we know for sure is that the upper limit can't be more than 100% - ex: every shot lands a crit, which effectively doubles your damage.

Also, are special abilities affected by crit the same way that weapons damage is? It could be that special abilities like blast shot described earlier are less likely to hit a crit. I suppose though again, we should assume until proven otherwise that critical hits work the same way. If that is the case, focus is the ability to cast first for birds as is blessings of might for mages.

Physiologic

02-10-2011, 10:14 PM

I'm relatively new to the game compared to other players - I'm unsure if Cinco announces changes to certain mechanics or formulas or if he changes them without notice.

And unless the skill description states "+5 crit" in blast shot, I'll assume that special abilities don't have any other procs to them.

WhoIsThis

02-11-2011, 10:06 PM

Physiologic

02-11-2011, 10:28 PM

I did some of my own testing and although you have probably realized this - armor is twice as effective against crit:

Regular Hit = Weapon Damage - Armor
Critical Hit = 2 x Weapon Damage - 2x Armor

What's interesting is that it is not:

Critical Hit = 2 x Weapon Damage - Armor

Critical hits still do 2 times the effective damage, but it's interesting that it's not a bit more than that. Perhaps that should be noted in your guide.

I also did a bit of testing and I think that the probability for spells (at least fire blast for my mage anyways - I don't really know if each ability is different, but I don't think so) hitting critically is the same as for weapons.

Void set, Without Focus: Hit% 140, Crit 21, Damage 180-225

132 230C 122 151 141 123 118 145 308C 112
251C dodge 145 119 117 124 129 dodge 121 116
116 118 131 133 120 123 147 142 dodge 130
144 dodge 119 149 miss 124 miss 134 128 dodge
dodge 112 142 136 134 112 206C 119 117 128
151 279C 128 115 287C 221C 143 miss 128 300C
133 147 198C 121 291C 141 255C dodge 131 115
dodge miss 274C 153 116 133 109 126 129 132
154 129 113 131 dodge dodge 113 121 dodge 125
144 127 131 dodge 130 224C 111 130 257C 126

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 16
Successful hits: 84

Non-criticals landed: 70 (83.33%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 9009
Average non-critical damage: 128.7

Criticals landed: 14 (16.67%)
Critical damage range: 198-300
Total critical damage: 3581
Average critical damage: 255.8

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 12,590

Since those damages I've listed in my trial runs were already considered 'effective damage' (damage - enemy armor) and not just 'damage', the critical damage seen takes into account effective damage.

So yes, in terms of regular weapon damage range, your formula is correct; another way to write it is crit hit = 2 x (effective damage), where effective damage is weapon damage - enemy armor.

MoonYeol

02-13-2011, 02:54 AM

The only way for the hit/crit/armor/dodge to make any sense is if;

1) Your hit% caps at 100% (Maybe lower or armor of mobs somehow affect the incoming attack's hit %)

2) Your hit% is lowered by debuffs. That's the reason why you want >100% hit. When you're debuffed your hit will go down to <100% (especially in PvP)

3) Dodge overrules hit% I.e you have a certain chance to hit, first you roll if you're going to hit. Then the enemy rolls if he will dodge the attack. Dodge works independently of hit, therefore it doesn't seem like dodge is simply a -hit% stat. Dodge debuffs will only decrease dodge to ≥0 %, if you debuff a mob with 5% dodge with a -25% dodge debuff. It will still be 0%, dodge does not count as a -hit%.

4) Damage is (damage-armor), Pocket Legends seems to be constructed of a pure point system rather than % increase, regarding damage and armor.

5) A critical hit is calculated after the hit damage. I.e. if you have 200 avg dmg, the mob has 75 armor. Your hit will be 125 avg dmg. The critical is 2(dmg-armor) instead of 2(dmg)-armor. So a critical is calculated after the armor damage reduction, which is purely based on numerical values instead of a percentage decrease.

----------------------------------------------------------------

This means that the chain of calculations is;

1) What is your chance to hit? Hit% - debuffs
2) What is the enemy's chance to dodge? Actual chance to hit (≤100%) - dodge%
3) What will your effective dmg be? Dmg roll (min-max dmg) - (armor)
4) Will you crit? (crit% ≤100%) Yes?
5) What will your critical dmg be? (effective dmg x 2)

These aren't facts, they are just my postulated hypothesis based on logic and experience. If anybody wants to prove/disprove, feel free to do so and I'd be happy to get a PM about the outcome. :)

Physiologic

02-13-2011, 03:51 AM

DontNerfMeBro

02-16-2011, 12:22 AM

MoonYeol

02-16-2011, 12:26 AM

Pretty much agree with everything you've got there, the only questionable thing in my data was in the first roll (hit%) where MISS values (shown above your head) were really all over the place while DODGE values (shown above enemy's head) stayed around the same. An enemy's effective dodge (your hit% - enemy dodge%) should somewhat correlate with the MISS's but they haven't. I may need to do another run eventually to straighten this out.

That is the intriguing part. Somehow I don't understand where the hit cap is. Maybe there is a lower hit% cap if you're unbuffed. Say, maybe 90% or something. Then, when you buff up your hit% you can reach the 100% cap. Seems to me we (you, I won't feel the need to do it) have to run another series of tests to check different hit% when the base hit% is already >100 with and w/o buffing up hit.

MoonYeol

02-16-2011, 12:29 AM

Physiologic

02-16-2011, 12:34 AM

Wonderfully extensive post...much appreciated.

To be dead honest, I didn't read the entire thread from top to bottom so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

It seems logical that DODGE and HIT% are not actually related in the attack equation. Almost as if the HIT potential is calculated first and if it misses, that's the end of it. If the attack is successful, then a separate DODGE equation is calculated to see if damage is dealt. Could the same thing be said for CRIT?

Could this make sense?

DODGE : Defense :: CRIT : Offense

MoonYeol has an accurate "roll" succession from the beginning of an attack to the end of the attack (2 posts above yours).

This means that the chain of calculations is;

1) What is your chance to hit? Hit% - debuffs
2) What is the enemy's chance to dodge? Actual chance to hit (≤100%) - dodge%
3) What will your effective dmg be? Dmg roll (min-max dmg) - (armor)
4) Will you crit? (crit% ≤100%) Yes?
5) What will your critical dmg be? (effective dmg x 2)

So yes, all enemy defensive measures are calculated first (hit%->dodge->armor) and then your offensive capabilities are seen (effective damage or crit).

That is the intriguing part. Somehow I don't understand where the hit cap is. Maybe there is a lower hit% cap if you're unbuffed. Say, maybe 90% or something. Then, when you buff up your hit% you can reach the 100% cap. Seems to me we (you, I won't feel the need to do it) have to run another series of tests to check different hit% when the base hit% is already >100 with and w/o buffing up hit.

I think there's only one cap to everything including hit%, just like the maximum armor cap before the enemy starts to do minimum damage on you. But I can probably run this again just to make sure (I've neglected this guide somewhat because I was working on my Crafting/Archer/Compendium guides and leveling to 56 but I'll try to update it more after I get to 56).

DontNerfMeBro

02-16-2011, 01:06 AM

Yeah.. Stop neglecting your duties for making my life easier. <whip CRACK!> Back to work with you!

Physiologic

02-16-2011, 01:16 AM

Don't taze me bro :(

Suntv

02-16-2011, 07:45 AM

MoonYeol

02-16-2011, 12:27 PM

Wow, one of the best articles yet. Very interesting to see someone had actually investigated the things I always think about. I especially like part "VII. The Difference Between Damage and DPS, and Which To Choose". I never understood why the Blizzard Stick had an ultra high DPS (for an INT weapon), but somehow it never really affacted the Alien bosses. At first I though they had some sort of armor agains ice. But now I understand that each time you hit an enemy, the full armor has to be concluded in the calculations (which is strange). With a DPS of 294 (147 x 2 (speed 0.5)) it's still very hard to kill an AO1-3 boss. Other weapons with a DPS of 190 (190 x 1 (speed 1.0)) finish him/her off much faster.

Keep up the good work!

Combined with rage/blessing of might, a high dps weapon can be really effective. Given that you use your debuffs properly. A lowered armor + increased dmg and a heck of an attack speed is a deadly combo. At least against a single target. For skills and spells, you want the highest base dmg you can possibly achieve.

Against a well armored opponent, every point in base dmg can be of essence. As well as each point in armor.

Let's do some easy math; You're farming a low lvl dungeon, you're a mage with 75 armor. The mobs have an average dmg of 95. So each hit will, on average, do 20 dmg to you. If there are 20 enemies attacking you, you will get 400 dmg with each round of attacks. That's pretty much what you can take as a pure int mage.

Let's increase your armor to 85 instead. The mobs will now do 20 x (95-85) = 200 dmg. Just by adding 10 armor, you've extended your stay in the line of fire.

It gets even more obvious how important armor is if you're farming somewhere where the mobs do even less dmg.

cnneooo

02-16-2011, 09:34 PM

that's what i am looking for .thx alot

Generators

02-18-2011, 09:45 AM

Physiologic

02-18-2011, 01:55 PM

Thank you very much for sharing! I translated your post into Chinese and introduced it to my friends who also play this game and we all appreciate your essay!Hope you will not charge me for copyright, lol.
I have a question, physiologic. Your post is about a bird. Can you tell me your experiences as a mega if there is any. About weapon chosing, for a mega, it seems the fast speed weason is of no use. Because all my attacking skill will have 3-6 secs cool down and the normal attack is merely nothing.Does that mean I should pick up a weapon with low speed and high damage?
Thank you.

Wow, didn't know my threads would actually get translated for non-English speaking players, that's amazing :)! No worries about copyright infringement.

By mega do you mean the Mega Blaster of the Void? Weapon speed does matter, to some extent. When you're auto-attacking an enemy with normal attacks you can use a skill without interrupting your auto-attack - you can fire both skills and normal attacks at almost the same time.

If you're using a Mega Blaster (weapon speed 1.0), you fire 60 shots in 1 minute. During this time you can use all your skills but still fire 60 shots nearly uninterrupted. Even when you use skills you still do an average of 12,150 damage. Of course this is excluding enemy armor, and therefore isn't effective damage.
If you're using a Sunblessed Bow (weapon speed 0.85), you fire 70.59 shots in 1 minute. You can still use all your skills and fire 70.59 shots. With skills + normal attacks you do an average of 15,325 damage, excluding the factor of enemy armor.

Point is, skills do matter and normal attacks do matter when they add up over time. But in the end, a weapon with high damage counts the most and is primarily what you should be looking for. There's a lot of other factors too such as firing distance (you can hit enemies farther away with Void than Sunblessed). Crit values are also extremely important.

In my opinion, look for weapons with good stats in the following order:
1. Damage
2. Crit
3. Armor/Dodge
4. Everything else

Yvonnel

03-02-2011, 11:35 AM

Physiologic

03-02-2011, 01:33 PM

I think they meant did you have any data like this for a mage.

On to my question. Do you know how the crits are added up from base stats + helm + weapon + armor + shield? I always seem to be off by 1 or 2.

Based off of this enchantress guide (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?hl=en&key=0AmL7wfFYRN97dEs5Umd5ZzU0a3NtSWwweWJjemhoN2c&hl=en&gid=0)

(Since this is a mage only chart, the first number in each equation will be slightly different but I'm sure the multiplier values are the same)

Crit for birds = 1.729 + 0.032(total DEX-1) + total crit from equips
Crit for mages = 1.72 + 0.02(total INT-6) + total crit from equips
Crit for bears = 1.73 + 0.03(total STR) + total crit from equips

All data was based off of my lv 50 bird, which is the only type of character I have.

Yvonnel

03-03-2011, 07:02 AM

Thanks. I am just looking to get real close. I am thinking of building a calculator into my excel pink list that allows me to quickly configure different loadouts.

Physiologic

03-03-2011, 01:21 PM

Thanks. I am just looking to get real close. I am thinking of building a calculator into my excel pink list that allows me to quickly configure different loadouts.

I've corrected my previous equations slightly, so these should be most accurate for your calculator if you're still building one. My apologies.

Yvonnel

03-03-2011, 01:46 PM

Thanks again. Your guides have been extremely helpful along the way. Would love to do some runs with you sometime.

Frenzyn

04-10-2011, 12:46 AM

Dang... Physiologic i'm not going to lie, you treat PL like it is it's own math subject. You study, take notions and annotations as you work, you simple AMAZE me.

CNN_BCC

04-11-2011, 10:27 PM

good job ,nice work!

giayuan

04-11-2011, 10:36 PM

Omfg.. this is amazing! You are DA best yo!! :D

innovateer

05-03-2011, 06:01 AM

Amazing work Physiologic (as always!). I experimented at using your calculations on the pocket legends wiki. I hope I can show the effects of each weapon on a number of standard character builds. Here's one example: http://pocketlegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sunblessed_Bow_of_the_Void

Vivi

05-12-2011, 01:32 PM

I just wanna point out some of my observations. The accuracy cap is 95% but having let's say 125% helps. How? When u get debuff in pvp let's say hellscream (-30% accuracy) u still have ur max 95% so it not all that impractical. Anything above 125% is useless, for pve 95% is just about right.
Dodge is another story. what I noticed is that when I have like 50 dodge, half the hits from monsters get dodged let's say monster has max accuracy of 95 and u have 40 dodge. How often will he hit u? Let's do the math 95 x [1 - (40/100)] = 57%
which means that only 57 out 100 hits will damage u. It is better to think of dodge as a chance of absorbing the damage completely rather than avoiding it which might easily be confussed with a "miss." Miss basically means that ur attack didn't hit the point in space it was aimed for, which is so much different in case of a dodge, the targeted victim was no longer there when the attack reached the intended 'destination' or point in space we aimed for. I believe Accuracy is taken first. if ur hit does not miss, you still have a chance to avoid the attack based on your dodge. Btw I got the 95% hit cap from ur test; ~50 dodges, ~50 misses combined with my theory gives 400 successful hits plus 50 lucky dodges divided by total amount of performed attacks gives us typical rpg cap of .95 or 95% if u like.

Hope that it helps, feel free to adopt it to ur guide.

05-12-2011, 06:18 PM

when you said you used the master mind wand along with the bracer combo....what do you mean
is armor, shield, and a shield or just a shield or...what?

Thanks,
Registered Platycow

Colin Healey

07-09-2011, 06:27 PM

[FONT="Lucida Console"]
Guide to Advanced Mechanics in PL: DPS, Crits, etc.
by Physiologic

Damage = 8.35-14.35 + (STR x 0.02) + ((DEX-1) x 0.15) + ((INT-6) x 0.08) + Damage from equips

DPS = 9.55 + (STR x 0.0167) + ((DEX-1) x 0.125) + ((INT-6) x 0.067) + (Damage from equips / weapon speed)

now i found this thread in the bug area for Star Legends, and i wanted to add that the formula's are not interchangeable. it seems that dex is the major for damage and crit. i'll get back when i got the numbers.

Physiologic

07-09-2011, 08:38 PM

The formulas are indeed completely different, but DEX remains to be the frontrunner for damage and crit for both games.

Silentarrow

07-12-2011, 09:58 AM

Thanks for the guide! This makes me want to play on my again.

Twinklaser

01-26-2012, 08:35 PM

Bump

Cool4ever100

02-20-2012, 12:03 AM

Ty! I have been selling more and more of my merchant lately ever since I checked this thread out! Great job on it

Livemau

06-16-2012, 10:00 AM

it burns it burns make it stop
oh the math of this world and the people who understand it

Kixxler

06-16-2012, 01:40 PM

I do not have enough intellect to understand any of this.

awesome4132

07-27-2012, 10:50 AM

Guide to Advanced Mechanics in PL: DPS, Crits, etc.
by Physiologic

Check out my other Pocket Legends guides:
How Drop Rates Work (Simplified) and the Factor of Luck Elixirs (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30059-How-Drop-Rates-Work-%28Simplified%29-and-the-Factor-of-Luck-Elixirs)
Post-Global Cooldown (GCD) Video Runs at Balefort Sewers (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?23726-Post-Global-Cooldown-%28GCD%29-Video-Runs-at-Balefort-Sewers)
In-Depth Guide to Farming Balefort Sewers (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?22587-In-Depth-Guide-to-Farming-Balefort-Sewers)
Comprehensive Archer Skills and Equipment Guide (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16244-Comprehensive-Archer-Skills-and-Equipment-Guide)
Complete Lv 55 Archer Gear List (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?19819-Complete-Lv-55-Archer-Gear-List)
Pocket Legends Enemy, Boss, and NPC Compendium (http://tinyurl.com/4tmz87x)
How to Craft Lv 55 Gear (http://tinyurl.com/4lcxe23)
How to calculate your attributes using STR, DEX, and INT (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?20606-How-to-calculate-your-attributes-using-STR-DEX-and-INT)
Ring List (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?18941-Ring-List)
Guide to Advanced Mechanics in PL: DPS, Crits, etc. (http://tinyurl.com/4u6bkuj)
Void Set versus Sentinel equips: An Unbiased Analysis (http://tinyurl.com/4g72okf)
In-Depth Guide to Farming Alien Oasis 3: Victory Lap (http://tinyurl.com/4u62hxt)

Check out my other Star Legends guides:
Star Legends General Attributes (STR, DEX, INT) Guide (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30467-Star-Legends-General-Attributes-%28STR-DEX-INT%29-Guide)
Prefix/Suffix Compendium for Weapons and Armors (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30417-Prefix-Suffix-Compendium-for-Weapons-and-Armors)
Lv 20-21 Operative Weapons and Equips (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?30545-Lv-20-21-Operative-Weapons-and-Equips)

Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. How to Calculate Your Attributes using STR/DEX/INT
III. How DPS Works
IV. How Crits Work
V. Enemy Armor and Affected Damage
VI. The Effect and Extent of Damage Multipliers (Combos)
VII. "I have a hit% of 135, why do I miss?"
VIII. The Search for a Crit Cap
IX. The Difference Between Damage and DPS, and Which To Choose
X. Hidden Weapon Skills aka Procs
XI. "My skill has a range of 8m...what does this mean, and how far exactly is 8m (8 meters) in this game?"
XII. Algorithm for a Successful or Failed Attack
XIII. Thx and Revision History

I. Introduction

Here's a long, boring guide of how certain mechanics work such as DPS, critical damage, and damage multipliers (or combos).

Word of Caution: This guide is not for the casual player. I created this guide for those interested in specific game mechanics. Thus, there are a lot of calculations and methodology involved. Many of these things may already be known but I like to test and prove theories through exact methods. If there are more things I can add, or if there's something you wish to know, do not hesitate to ask.

II. How to Calculate Your Attributes Using STR/DEX/INT

A very underused but awesome guide in this forum is Eleanor's Enchantress Attributes Guide. The spreadsheet located in that guide shows how much each point of STR, DEX, or INT does to your attribute values, namely hit%, crit, dodge, health, h/s, mana, m/s, damage, DPS, and armor.

These formulas are the accumulation of Eleanor's work and should be precise with an occasional deviating value of -1/+1 (especially in damage and DPS). Basically, just plug in STR, DEX, and INT numbers as well as the other attributes your armor/weapon gives to determine what your stats will look like.

Decimal values are not rounded. For example, 6.88 = 6

STR = STR from attributes + total STR from equips
DEX = DEX from attributes + total DEX from equips
INT = INT from attributes + total INT from equips

Hit% = 66.49 + ((DEX-1) x 0.16) + ((INT-6) x 0.1) + Hit% from equips

Crit = 1.73 + (STR x 0.03) + ((DEX-1) x 0.032) + ((INT-6) x 0.02) + Crit from equips

Dodge = 1.575 + (STR x 0.025) + ((DEX-1) x 0.0125) + ((INT-6) x 0.005) + Dodge from equips

H/s = 0.76 + (STR x 0.02) + ((DEX-1) x 0.01) + ((INT-6) x 0.005) + H/s from equips

M/s = 0.78 + (INT x 0.02) + M/s from equips

Damage = 8.35-14.35 + (STR x 0.02) + ((DEX-1) x 0.15) + ((INT-6) x 0.08) + Damage from equips

DPS = 9.55 + (STR x 0.0167) + ((DEX-1) x 0.125) + ((INT-6) x 0.067) + (Damage from equips / weapon speed)

Notes:
1. Health pool, Mana pool, and Armor have been excluded.
2. The first number in each calculation is derived from a Mage with beginning stats of 1 STR, 2 DEX, and 7 INT. 1 DEX and 6 INT are subtracted whenever those stats are presented in each calculation to achieve a more precise scale.

III. How DPS Works

Here's a simple calculation to figure out how DPS is derived using only 2 factors, damage and weapon speed, and to confirm what weapon speed really means.

Here's a comparative table listing the current end-game equipment for archers, which I will use in my DPS calculation example. My assumption is that weapon speed is measured in units of seconds.

http://i53.tinypic.com/ehltgx.jpg

VOID (Mega Blaster + Wraith + Jacob's Void)
damage: 180-225, dps: 202, speed: 1.0
(180+225) / 2 = 202.5 average per hit
speed of 1.0 means you will hit every 1 second
for 60 seconds, you will do 60 hits
total of average 60x202.5 or 12,150 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 12,150/60 = 202.5

Calculated DPS matches DPS shown on screen. Now let's do several calculations with 0.6 speed weapons.

SENT SLICE (Sentinel Helmet + Sentinel Armor + Shadow Slicers)
damage: 154-172, dps: 272, speed: 0.6
(154+172) / 2 = 163 average damage per hit
speed of 0.6 means you will hit every 0.6 seconds
for 60 seconds you will do 60/0.6 or 100 hits
total of average 100x163 or 16,300 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 16,300/60 = 271.67

SENT TAL (Sentinel Helmet + Sentinel Armor + Sentinel Talon + Sentinel Wing)
damage: 134-141, dps: 229, speed: 0.6
(134+141) / 2 = 137.5 average damage per hit
speed of 0.6 means you will hit every 0.6 seconds
for 60 seconds you will do 60/0.6 for 100 hits
total of average 100x137.5 or 13,750 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 13,740/60 = 229.167

Once again, DPS matches. This confirms that weapon speed does indeed carry the unit of "seconds."

When we calculate the Sunblessed set, the speed of 0.9 is actually rounded up. In actuality the bow speed is 0.85.

SUNBLESS (Overlord's Void + Wraith + Sunblessed Bow)
damage: 195-240, dps: 256, speed: 0.85
(195+240) / 2 = 217.5 average damage per hit
speed of 0.85 means you will hit every 0.85 seconds
for 60 seconds, you will do 60/0.85 or 70.59 hits
total of average 70.59x217.5 or 15,325.941 damage will be dealt in 60 seconds
DPS = 15,352.941/60 = 255.88

IV. How Crits Work

In this section we will explore what "critically" hitting means. What does the "crit" stat stand for? Is it a set percentage? How much more damage do you do if you critically hit an enemy?

To find out, we will attempt to hit enemies 100 times total and record the outcome of per attempted hit (skip down to conclusion if you don't want to see numeration) - first without the archer skill Focus, then with it.

Void set, Without Focus: Hit% 140, Crit 21, Damage 180-225

132 230C 122 151 141 123 118 145 308C 112
251C dodge 145 119 117 124 129 dodge 121 116
116 118 131 133 120 123 147 142 dodge 130
144 dodge 119 149 miss 124 miss 134 128 dodge
dodge 112 142 136 134 112 206C 119 117 128
151 279C 128 115 287C 221C 143 miss 128 300C
133 147 198C 121 291C 141 255C dodge 131 115
dodge miss 274C 153 116 133 109 126 129 132
154 129 113 131 dodge dodge 113 121 dodge 125
144 127 131 dodge 130 224C 111 130 257C 126

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 16
Successful hits: 84

Non-criticals landed: 70 (83.33%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 9009
Average non-critical damage: 128.7

Criticals landed: 14 (16.67%)
Critical damage range: 198-300
Total critical damage: 3581
Average critical damage: 255.8

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 12,590

Conclusion:
- Critical hits effectively double your damage (both range and average damage). 255.8 is roughly double 128.7.
- "Crit" means a set percentage of how often you critically hit an enemy. Crit rate for 84 successful hits was 16.67%, close to 21%.

We didn't have the Focus buff on, which gives birds an extra 25% hit and 25% crit chance. What happens when we attempt this with Focus?

Void set, with Focus (+25% hit, +25% Crit): Hit% 165, Crit 46, Damage 180-225

146 146 151 dodge 119 141 109 235C dodge 119
122 273C 269C 114 241C 257C dodge 122 dodge 114
dodge 132 141 141 147 149 254C miss 308C 135
273C 271C 203C 279C 270C 273C 302C 114 142 138
256C 132 262C dodge 139 296C 253C 151 225C 133
116 110 253C 223C 118 282C 122 142 miss 116
127 133 283C 307C 116 134 miss 146 129 142
miss 153 141 279C 226C 297C dodge 310C 265C miss
201C dodge 130 238C 135 dodge 295C 119 223C dodge
252C 264C 149 203C 262C 118 152 142 118 300C

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 15
Successful hits: 85

Non-criticals landed: 47 (55.29%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-153
Total non-critical damage: 6205
Average non-critical damage: 132.0

Criticals landed: 38 (44.7%)
Critical damage range: 201-310
Total critical damage: 9963
Average critical damage: 262.2

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 16,168

Conclusion:
- These results reinforce my previous results in that crit damages are double your normal. Critical hits landed was 44.7%, close to the expected value of 46.
- Also note the frequency of criticals: 44.7% with Focus compared to 16.67% without Focus. What does this mean for damage?
- With focus constantly on, I did a total of 16,168 damage compared to my 12,590 without it. Critical hits DO make a huge difference in damage. This simply means keep your buffs up all the time to do more damage over time.

Here's another caveat: My normal damage range in close encounters for the first run was 109-154, and for the second run was 109-153. Why is this range so low when it says my damage is 180-225 with the Void set? This is where enemy armor comes into play.

V. Enemy Armor and Affected Damage

It's quite possible that with different campaigns, a mob's armor changes. With the Void set equipped in Forest Haven, you would be doing constant non-critical damages from 180 to 225. Enemy armor increases with increasing campaign difficult, thus why in Shadow Caves you do a measly 30 non-critical damage.

Here's how much damage is reduced in Close Encounters, using figures from above.
Void set (damage range: 180-225, average damage 202.5)
Non-criticals landed: 117
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 15,214
Average non-critical damage: 130.0

Damage reduction at lower end: 180-109 = 71 armor
Damage reduction at higher end: 225-154 = 71 armor
Damage reduction on average damage: 202.5 - 130 = 72.5 armor

% damage reduction on lower range (or 1-109/180): 39.44%
% damage reduction on upper range (or 1-154/225): 31.55%
% damage reduction on average damage (or 130/202.5): 35.8%

As you can see, Close Encounter enemies have 71-72.5 armor, and you will consistently have reduced damage anywhere from 30% up to 40% with this particular mob. (Thanks Ellyidol for the numeric armor suggestion)

When I have more time I will figure out damage reduction in other campaigns.

VI. The Effect and Extent of Damage Multipliers (Combos)

So you're a great PL player and you already know that combos kill enemies faster than individual skills and attacks.

How vastly does the damage difference between weapons and criticals change when combos are introduced? This question was presented in one of my earlier threads regarding the debate between the new Sentinel set and the Void set. Hopefully you'll see results more clearly in the field than on paper.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/originalvoid.pnghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/sent1.png

What we know so far:
Void set gives a damage range of 180-225 and DPS of 202. Hit% is 140 and Crit% is 21.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 188-233 and DPS of 211. Hit% is 126 and Crit% is 22.

Your damage difference between the two sets is currently 8. A difference of 8 damage doesn't seem too much, does it? Let's add in a skill.

When Blast Shot is used:
Void set gives a damage range of 277-301.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 286-310.

Now you're looking at a damage difference range of 8-10. Now add the possibility of crits with Blast Shot. Remember from my previous example above that critically hitting an enemy doubles your damage.

When Blast Shot is used and you critically hit:
Void set gives a damage range of 554-602.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 572-620.

Your damage difference range is now a difference of 18.

I tested the Sentinel set in Close Encounters and recorded only my critical hits with Blast Shot: 456 474 455 477 453 468
Since there is a damage reduction of 30-40% (avg 35%) in Close Encounters, you would really be doing this: 616 640 614 644 612 632

Matches the damage range right? So these numerations are so far accurate.

Now, what about using the Cruel Blast combo? This does massive damage to a target, but what's the damage difference between Void and Sentinel when you critically hit while using Cruel Blast? From what I understand, Cruel Blast adds an extra attack similar to Blast Shot's damage when used, so you're effectively doubling your damage once more.

When Cruel Blast is used and you critically hit both attacks:
Void set gives a damage range of 554-602, twice for a total of 1108-1204 damage.
Sentinel set gives a damage range of 572-620, twice for a total of 1144-1240 damage.

The difference in damage, if you're lucky enough to pull off crits on both hits, is 32 to 36.

An advantage of 8 on paper to up to 32-36 seems extremely favorable to the Sentinel set, but if we think about it objectively, it's really not that much difference in damage - Enemies in Alien Oasis 3 have hundreds of HP, and enemies in the Shadow Caves heal thousands. Perusing my prior analysis guide (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16639-Void-Set-vs.-Sentinel-Equipment-An-Unbiased-Analysis) will also show you that there is no significant difference between either sets.

Either way, the point of this exercise was to show how damage multipliers worked. I would still imagine the debate between Void and Sentinel raging on and on :)

VII. "I have a hit% of 135, why do I miss?"

This question was presented by Ravenous. Here I will try to reason out the reason why we miss or why enemies dodge our attacks, even though we have a hit% of greater than 100. We will also find out what the difference between a MISS and a DODGE is. Let's assume enemies, like us, have a DODGE stat. My hypothesis is that DODGE is a given % and that 1 dodge = -1 hit%.

Equipment used was the full Sunblessed Archer set in the AO3 map, Close Encounters. Sample size will be n = 500, or 500 recorded attempted hits.

Sunblessed Set, no Focus, Hit% 135
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total attempted hits: 500
'd' (dodge) total: 55
'm' (miss) total: 36
'a' (hit) total: 409 (82%, rounded up)

Probably enemy 'DODGE' calculation in Close Encounters = 135% - 82% = 53.
Therefore, if enemy DODGE is 53 and your hit% is 135, you go down to an 82% chance to hit an enemy.

Here's an attempt to confirm this finding of enemy DODGE.

This time, I will use the Sunblessed set with Focus, which increases my hit% up to 25%. Hit% should be 160 so if there really is a factor of enemy DODGE of 53, then my hit % should be 107%. This means that I should have no misses or dodges, right?

Sunblessed Set, with Focus, Hit% 160
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total attempted hits: 500
'd' (dodge) total: 50 (9.1% decrease compared to 55)
'm' (miss) total: 25 (30.5% decrease compared to 36)
'a' (hit) total: 425 (85%, rounded up)

These results are very confusing. My initial hypothesis of Dodge calcuation was incorrect because I failed to hit enemies almost as frequently as before. Enemy rates of DODGEing didn't decrease, and my total successful hit percentage was similar to previous results (82% versus 85%).

Westpsy suggested that it may be possible that there is a Hit% cap, or a point where it doesn't matter how much Hit% you have, you will still miss an enemy; I am inclined to believe this as well. Your true Hit% may be 82-85% in Close Encounters, and won't be able to increase beyond that.

It's interesting to note that I MISSed 30.5% less, which is very close to the 25% increased chance to hit that the archer skill Focus gives. Perhaps Focus causes you to MISS enemies less as opposed to increasing your overall chance to hit them.

So in short, the results with the Sunblessed Set are as follows (n=500):
- With a Hit% of 135, there was an 82% chance of successful hits.
- With a Hit% of 160 (Focus), there was an 85% chance of successful hits.
- There doesn't seem to be a numeric enemy DODGE factor, but a hit% cap of 82-85%.
- Focus may serve to decrease the amount of times you MISS an enemy.

These results closely match the Void set results from my Critical Hits section (n=100):
- With a Hit% of 140, there was an 84% chance of successful hits.
- With a Hit% of 165 (Focus), there was an 85% chance of successful hits.

I will now try my results with the Sentinel of Death set, which has a generally lower hit% than both Void and Sunblessed Sets.

Sentinel, without Focus, Hit% 126
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total attempted hits: 500
'd' (dodge) total: 54
'm' (miss) total: 18
'a' (hit) total: 428 (85.6%)

Even when Sentinel was used without Focus, it produced a result that was equal or no better than the Void set. This confirms that there does seem to be a Hit% cap when Hit% reaches 100...which pretty much means that the value of Hit% is useless beyond 100!

It's interesting to also note that the Sentinel set had a much lower MISS total compared to the Void and Sunblessed despite a lower Hit%, which I can't explain at all, and I'm tired from recording 1500 sets of values :)

http://i55.tinypic.com/2r3ck77.jpg

So from the data suggested, here's my conclusion:
> Sentinel, Void, and Sunblessed Sets all have very similar hit rates on the field, despite what their numbers suggest.
> There may be a hit% cap that causes players with Hit% > 100 to miss enemies.
> Rates of enemy DODGEing does not seem affected by different weapon set, or Hit%. However, the rate of MISSing enemies between sets is variable.

VIII. The Search for a Crit Cap

Much thanks to WhoIsThis for testing this with me.

In this section, we try to establish if a possible cap to crit exists; our main reason to test this out is simply because a hit% cap exists. At the moment, the highest possible crit value can only be achieved by a mage due to their powerful +60% crit buff. As such, we used WhoIsThis' pure INT mage to test this out. This was tested in Alien Oasis III: Close Encounters. Attacks were ONLY recorded while the mage was buffed for 94% crit.

Pure INT mage stats: Lv 56, 1/2/330 stat distribution
Pure INT mage equips: Mastermind Wand/Bracer combo
Crit: 34% unbuffed, 94% buffed

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Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 107
Dodge: 14
Successful hits: 93

Non-criticals landed: 3 (3.2%)
Criticals landed: 90 (96.8%)

So far, no evidence of a crit cap less than 94% crit exists. If a crit cap does exist, it will be much higher than the hit% cap.

Since the sample number was small compared to the hit% data sample numbers, we will probably have to record more values down in the future.

X. The Difference Between Damage and DPS, and Which To Choose

This question was frequently in the back of my mind when I first started playing PL. The devs decided to put the value of DPS there for a reason. If you've been following my guide from the beginning, we know how damage, weapon speed, and DPS are related (please look back at section II for this example).

Often times during gameplay I have been presented with the choice of choosing one of the following weapons - choosing between higher damage, or higher DPS (but never both). For our sake of example, we will apply values to them:
1. Weapon with low damage range (50-60), high DPS (70)
2. Weapon with high damage range (65-75), low DPS (50)

Which weapon is best to kill bosses with? Look at DPS first.

Let's say a boss fight drags on for 30 seconds. The boss has a lot of health and doesn't go down easily. Choosing the first weapon yields you a total of (70x30) damage, or 2,100 damage. Choosing the second weapon yields you a total of (50x30) damage, or 1,500 damage. Seems clear you'd want to choose the first weapon right?

It doesn't really matter what the damage is - it's very easy to see in an extended boss fight (bosses with a lot of health) that DPS is much better. This finding is more muddled when it comes to attacking normal enemies with much less health.

Attacking an enemy with 200 health takes roughly 2.85 seconds with the first weapon and 4 seconds with the second weapon, but if you have a chance to crit with the second weapon for 150 damage, you've ripped a nice chunk of the enemy's health already.

Case in point, weapons with higher damage ranges when used with damage multipliers will help eliminate normal enemies faster than weapons with higher DPS.

Edit (1/19/11):
I did not mention that the factor of enemy armor does in fact cause a favorable shift towards damage as opposed to DPS (Thanks to Kalielle, Xymorg, and FluffNStuff for pointing this out).

I will quote and use FluffNStuff and Xymorg's examples (respectively):

To recap their point, when an enemy has a large amount of armor, both damage and DPS will be reduced, but DPS will be affected much more. I think it's easier to see it using this equation:

Avg damage = unaffected by enemy armor (what you see on your stats window)
Effective damage = avg damage - enemy armor
DPS = effective damage / weapon speed

If enemy armor is LARGE:
↓Effective damage = avg damage - ↑enemy armor
↓ DPS = ↓ effective damage / weapon speed

If the factor of enemy armor is applied, DPS will be affected, but NOT the damage range you see in your stats window. Thus, DPS can be misleading at times.

However, it's important to note that although enemy armor does play a role in reducing your damage and DPS, your character is equipped with skills that debuffs armor on enemies to a certain percentage. Combined with other party members' skills, it may be possible to completely strip an enemy's armor, so that the factor of enemy armor is no longer of any significance to neither damage nor DPS. Keep in mind that the rate of debuffing an enemy's armor can vary from party to party based on individual player skill.

XI. Hidden Weapon Skills aka Procs

There are few weapon types that carry a "proc" or basically a hidden weapon skill that debuffs an enemy, or adds an elemental attack. BeardedBear has a useful index that describes each proc and its respective weapon types, so I'll just link you to his thread (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?9730-Weapon-proc-index.).

Not every weapon has a hidden proc, and some pinks may have hidden procs as well, but such weapons can be useful because they allow you to debuff enemies without using skills at all - each proc is activated at a random set percentage while you are attacking normally.

XII. "My skill has a range of 8m...what does this mean, and how far exactly is 8m (8 meters) in this game?"

Many skills have a range or an area of effect described in "m" which stands for meters, but this is unfortunately a very abstract way to describe the distance your skill actually reaches.

Here's a way to measure an approximate distance of how far your skill can reach.

This is Thorn Wall at level 6, which carries a range of 10m. As reference points, I am in-between the chest and a bush, and Thorn Wall was able to hit the chest at this furthest distance:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/thornwall.png

This is a xbow used that carries with it a range of 12m. Note that the xbow was able to hit the chest right where the bush is, a little farther than Thorn Wall:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/xbow.png

Here's the first picture again but with range denoted. Keep into account that depth perception is a factor here, and as you go further away from the center (my character), range is longer than it appears:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/revised.png

XI. Algorithm for a Successful or Failed Attack

When you attack an enemy, the game follows a specific algorithm that determines the outcome of the attack:
1. You will MISS the attack
2. The enemy will DODGE the attack
3. You will damage the enemy
4. You will critically damage the enemy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

Hit% roll is based off of your hit%. There is a probable cap to this value (<100% despite your hit% value).
Enemy dodge % roll is an unknown variable for each enemy.
Crit% roll is based off of your crit. Unsure of a cap existence at the moment.
Critical damage = effective damage x2
Effective damage = damage - enemy armor

I did not include weapon proc in this, as they activate at a low random occurrence. The proc most likely adds at the very end, after damage/critical damage is calculated.

Thanks MoonYeol for giving his insight in this!

XIII. Thx and Revision History

As always, thank you readers for your positive comments and criticism. I will continue to make guides until I move on from PL.

1/15/11: Guide created
Hit%/Miss/Dodge section added
1/19/11: Edited Damage/DPS section
2/14/11: Proc and range sections added
2/16/11: Algorithm for successful/failed attack added
3/4/11: Attribute calculation added

Now say what??????:hororr:i never cease to be amazed by your guides. nice job

DoD's Essence

12-04-2012, 04:59 PM

[FONT="Lucida Console"]
VII. "I have a hit% of 135, why do I miss?"

<snipe>

So from the data suggested, here's my conclusion:
> Sentinel, Void, and Sunblessed Sets all have very similar hit rates on the field, despite what their numbers suggest.
> There may be a hit% cap that causes players with Hit% > 100 to miss enemies.
> Rates of enemy DODGEing does not seem affected by different weapon set, or Hit%. However, the rate of MISSing enemies between sets is variable.

<snip>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

Hit% roll is based off of your hit%. There is a probable cap to this value (<100% despite your hit% value).

Just a random note here: all of your tables in your "hit cap" question indicate pretty clearly that you "miss" rather than "are dodged" about 5% of the time in all circumstances. This means your actual "hit cap" is pretty clearly 95%. Then you have an enemy that dodges some percentage of the time such that Dodge% * 95% = your actual result of about 85%. That puts the dodge score of the enemy at around 10%.

So don't bother raising your hit% above 95%, I guess is the point. :)

ArtofWar

12-04-2012, 07:44 PM

Necro much, huh?

gison

12-04-2012, 11:53 PM

Can't blame em. It's a bad a** guide :)

Extreme

12-06-2012, 06:47 AM

Wow for u

Itoopeo

09-30-2014, 10:26 AM

This is one of most helpful guides on forums why isnt it sticky?

MercherofPL

01-22-2015, 11:38 PM

execllent

AppleNoob

01-23-2015, 08:10 PM

execllent

Why are you necroing?

nun

01-23-2015, 08:50 PM

vary halpful!