Mythic Weapons Comparison

[Madnex]

Starting off, I want to make clear that this topic is focused primarily on the Elondrian Warfare Bow of Potency and Elondrian Gnarled Rifle of Brutality. I have not used the mythic Bulwark so I will not be making any comments on it yet - besides, there are plenty of topics about it already.

Note: Some of the proc descriptions in the pictures are outdated.


http://www.spacetimestudios.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89419&d=1400797227

First, let's take a look at the Elondrian Warfare Bow of Potency procs:


On each attack performed, be it skill or normal attack, the bow holder receives 1% HP return. This is the only proc that is somewhat noticeable -- because of the mini green shield effect. Making that 2% (from the original 10% promised) would be a very nice step into being able to actually rely on this interesting new proc and not just admire how flashy the player looks under its effect.



On each normal attack performed, be it charged or uncharged, the bow holder has a chance to spawn an elondrian bush. This particular bush has a heal-over-time effect which is currently potent enough (good job here) BUT the remaining two aspects of it, the damage-over-time on mobs crossing it and primarily the movement-impairing effects invulnerability certainly need some tweaking.




http://www.spacetimestudios.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89423&d=1400797442

Now let's look at the Elondrian Gnarled Rifle of Brutality procs:


On each normal attack performed, be it charged or uncharged, the gun holder receives a temporary five-second armor boost (up to 150 extra armor). This works brilliantly, the five consecutive shots needed are not hard to achieve so while fighting, the 15% (!) armor increase (comparing to default armor of mythic set) comes naturally and is not hard at all to be kept as a permanent armor buff throughout the fight.



On each normal attack performed, be it charged or uncharged, the gun holder has a chance to spawn Elondrian Wrath. Aka, roots. This is perhaps the best proc that any weapon has been given -- after Maul of course -- since it offers, a four second root while removing 25% of the whole mobs' rooted armor.

[Madnex]

Conclusion: While both weapons provide a very high damage increase from their L36 predecessors -- with the rifle leading --, there are two substantial inequalities.

-First of all, for the technical part, the rifle offers robust, well-working procs that not only can be safely relied upon for constant support (15% armor buff!) but are also tild-changing in any fight (root that overrides anything with 25% armor debuff on top); the bow on the other hand has various issues that overall make both of its procs unnoticeable, not in appearance but in effectiveness.

-Secondly, comparing the primary procs, they both occur for the exact same time (four seconds) BUT the rifle proc offers instant results (target mob rooted in place) while the bow user has to spend half the proc time trying to position himself in order to take advantage of the miniscule damage-over-time and heal-over-time effects. The bush proc is this bad that most users consider the 1% HP per hit return as the primary proc instead of the bush!

All in all, it is logical to expect some tweaking done to the mythic bow procs in order for them to be functional and not plain decorational.




Suggestions-Fixes:

[Bow]:
-Fix the movement-impairing effects immunity that was promised! Aside from the mythic gun root proc which seems to override any and all stun/root immunities just because, the bushes currently provide zero protection from simple stuns like the charged fireball one.

-Increase the size or duration and the proximity of the bush spawns. Currently, there is barely enough time to notice them and then be disappointed since we only get one or maximum two seconds actually on the bush, provided that there are no distractions or obstacles in the way, of course.

-Increase healing tick from 1% to 3% in order to make the HP return something that the player can potentially rely on, even a little. Currently, it is useless in PvE since the miniscule amount of healing, even when stacking damage-over-time skills, does not prevent death from one-two hits death on elite maps. In PvP both HP-return and bush proc hold little to zero value since -- aside from most battles being too short (less than 10s) -- the rogue must prioritize grabbing the scattered medic packs which obviously hold more healing value than the bush proc.

[Rifle]:
-Replace the 100% dodge debuff with something meaningful or remove it altogether. Mobs and bosses in PvE cannot dodge under any case and in PvP only rogues have half of that dodge to be reduced which only leads to two-three normal shots having 100% chance to hit - bit too much fuss for something so small.
Proposed replacements: 80% hit% debuff (PvE).

[matanofx]

All i can say is youre right about the bush proc not being noticeable but for current season in an overall perspective the bow seems awesome

Rogues do so much dmg kill elite bosses super fast and a rogue with elondrian bow in pvp is on the top of the food chain right now

Maybe for next season the procs should be fixed but for now i think rogues are very OP with this bow as it is, just my 2cents

[Madnex]

Conclusions and suggestions added. I've used both weapons a lot so this is the best I could come up with but if anyone has a different opinion, do speak up.

Thanks.

[Visiting]

102161

[GoodSyntax]

I agree! The primary bush proc of the bow is completely useless and is really just there for the bling effect. I greatly prefer the HP return from attacks so, as far as I am concerned, this is the Proc. Plus, considering I rarely use auto attacks in elite maps, I can go several runs without the bush Proc. If this proc also applied to skill attacks, or better get, was guaranteed on any charged attack (skill or auto) then the bush would have more value. As it stands, with the randomness of when and where this bush appears, it is hard to take advantage of it when you see it and half the time it is nowhere near you or your target, so your choice is to reposition to take advantage of the second or two remaining on the proc (by the time you notice it and can move to where it spawned) or just ignore it altogether.

Both Procs from the gun are brutally effective, and the shielding Proc in particular, is extremely consistent and reliable. The root from the gun is also beneficial every time because it roots the enemies you are attacking, not just applying something random in the middle of nowhere that no one can take advantage of.

I think only some minor changes are needed for the bow, because Procs aside, it is a great weapon!

[obee]

102173

[Madnex]

I agree! The primary bush proc of the bow is completely useless and is really just there for the bling effect. I greatly prefer the HP return from attacks so, as far as I am concerned, this is the Proc. Plus, considering I rarely use auto attacks in elite maps, I can go several runs without the bush Proc. If this proc also applied to skill attacks, or better get, was guaranteed on any charged attack (skill or auto) then the bush would have more value. As it stands, with the randomness of when and where this bush appears, it is hard to take advantage of it when you see it and half the time it is nowhere near you or your target, so your choice is to reposition to take advantage of the second or two remaining on the proc (by the time you notice it and can move to where it spawned) or just ignore it altogether.

Both Procs from the gun are brutally effective, and the shielding Proc in particular, is extremely consistent and reliable. The root from the gun is also beneficial every time because it roots the enemies you are attacking, not just applying something random in the middle of nowhere that no one can take advantage of.

I think only some minor changes are needed for the bow, because Procs aside, it is a great weapon!

Exactly my point! The bush proc is of no use at the moment. At all.

[Haligali]

Why noone did last season a comparison between the twin razorbacks and the orbital staff :(

[Gorecaster]

Rarely do I even see anyone, especially the rogue who dished it out standing in the bush. I try to make my way there but most of the time it's gone by the time I get myself safely near it. Tried the bow once on my rogue and no deathed caves on my 2nd try in elites. Definitely an amazing weapon IMO.

[Alhuntrazeck]

Well, the rogue's mythic bow offers a gigantic damage increase over the expedition recurve. Buffing it too much would severely skew the class balance (using the term in the broadest possible sense).

The bow gives back 1% on all attacks. Coupled with samael's HoT &/or SNS's huge HoT &/or pack's HoT - this could (on paper) mean a lot of HP back. Since rogues have miniscule GCD, buffing the HP gain to 3% would mean almost 10% hp in a typical rogue combo - overpowered, no?

I'd suggest slightly increasing the bow proc rate (the bush) and increasing its HoT to something nearer to the mage's regen on heal. For the mage's gun, swapping the -100% dodge for a damage debuff sounds good to me; say, -10%?

[Madnex]

Why noone did last season a comparison between the twin razorbacks and the orbital staff :(
Orbital was really OP before the nerf but even afterwards, it packed quite a punch - of course, top weapon was undebatably kershal then though. I'd probably have made a comparison if I was playing anything else but mage back then.

I'd suggest slightly increasing the bow proc rate (the bush) and increasing its HoT to something nearer to the mage's regen on heal. For the mage's gun, swapping the -100% dodge for a damage debuff sounds good to me; say, -10%?
There is no issue with the HoT. The issue is the proc duration, bush size, insignificance of the damage-over-time and nonfunctional root/stun immunity effects.

But the 10% damage debuff would be overpowered, considering that would mean 20%+ damage debuff on a possible four-five people group because of the way the buff system works at the moment. It needs something less potent in PvP and more in PvE -- it's already certain death for rogue or opposite mage if it procs --, which is why I suggested the hit% debuff.

This is not a buff we're requesting, this is a fix. As said above, both mythic weapons offer a huge damage bonus comparing to their legendary counterparts, with the rifle leading (offering more).

The HP-return issue can wait or just get 2%, the main problem is the useless bush proc. Duration and size increase would maybe make this a bit more useful than a distraction to the enemy. And primarily, fixing the missing stun/root immunity while standing in it; just today I was stunned in Arena while I had my back on the wall and right after bush proc -- the bush spawned *right* below me -- and yet once more I sighed on its ineffectiveness.

[GoodSyntax]

A better compromise of the bush proc would be a much higher proc rate on charged attack that ALWAYS lands on the mob that you attacked. Also, increasing the size and duration of the bush would help as well, because as it currently works, the bush pops up in the middle of nowhere, and mobs usually walk around the bush (the same way they walk around sprung traps).

Spawning the bush on top of the target would really increase the usefulness of the proc, since it would benefit tanks and rogues that like to fight in the pack, and, even though the damage from the bush is minuscule, could actually do some good in dealing a little bit of AoE style damage on grouped pulls.

Personally, I would really like this proc to happen on skill based attacks as well, since the bulk of Rogue's attacks are skill based.

[Madnex]

I believe the random spawn was meant to act as a sniping spot outside of the close-range battle, which fits the rogue's role in a fight. So I think the following is a reasonal and expected fix:

(1)Give the bush procs the size of charged shadow veil - we're expected to stand on it, right?
(2)Increase duration to enable the time needed in order to travel to bush - add three seconds minimum (7-secs total).
(3)Fix the stun/root immunity which is currently missing - no justification needed here.

Congratulations, you've turned something decorational to something functional!

[Haligali]

Orbital was really OP before the nerf but even afterwards, it packed quite a punch - of course, top weapon was undebatably kershal then though. I'd probably have made a comparison if I was playing anything else but mage back then.

Yea until the always viligant *cough* forum police reported.. *cough*

[Benworushi]

how about bulwark ,very strong weapon !!plz sts nerf it !bcoz of bulwark too power ,nobody can hold it !!

[Madnex]

how about bulwark ,very strong weapon !!plz sts nerf it !bcoz of bulwark too power ,nobody can hold it !!

I have not used the mythic Bulwark so I will not be making any comments on it yet - besides, there are plenty of topics about it already.
If I ever try Bulwark I'll be sure to add it to comparison. Besides, Bulwark is already getting buffed in the new Arena skin patch and has plenty of Buff-Bulwark threads out there. :)

[GoodSyntax]

I believe the random spawn was meant to act as a sniping spot outside of the close-range battle, which fits the rogue's role in a fight. So I think the following is a reasonal and expected fix:

(1)Give the bush procs the size of charged shadow veil - we're expected to stand on it, right?
(2)Increase duration to enable the time needed in order to travel to bush - add three seconds minimum (7-secs total).
(3)Fix the stun/root immunity which is currently missing - no justification needed here.

Congratulations, you've turned something decorational to something functional!

Yes, but where would the greater benefit of the bush be felt, applied on the mobs you are attacking (and thus lending a hand to your tank while doing some added DMG as well), or out in the periphery in some randomized location?

Sniping class or not, if you are on the periphery, then the DMG and Heal of the bush doesn't do much for you - especially if you have to reposition to get to it. If you are fighting on the outskirts of a pull, then you really don't need the heal, since other players have all the aggro anyway, and the DMG effect is being squandered.

The way I play, I am right in the middle of the mob cluster with my tank pounding out as much DMG as I can. I don't reposition (except to avoid Shaman/Troll/Scorn windups, and to find the next high priority target), I don't try to straife mobs, making the tanks job more difficult - I kill things one at a time, as fast as I can. To do this most effectively means I have to be in the cluster, so for me, I would prefer the bush to always show up on the mob(s) I am attacking and no where else.

[Madnex]

I'm sure that if the bush proc gets the size of charged Veil and the extra two seconds duration that we waste running to it, everyone will be satisfied here. :)

[Raregem]

It would be nice not have to run for it... we already have to chase packs.

[Remiem]

Thank you so much for your analysis, Mad. I'll pass this along to the devs. They are working very hard on new stuff at the moment, so I can't guarantee that these will be revisited, but it is very good feedback for them to have for these and future weapons.