Elite dungeon No fun with pots

[baktus]

Sad you allow potions in Elite dungeon.

Not because it gets less hard, but because there is no more NEED to play your class as it's meant; Tank, DPS & Heal.

With pots 5 tanks can do it, none of them actually learning to keep aggro on you, 5 mages can do it etc.

To put is short; You took the ELITE out of it :(

[regie831]

Sad you allow potions in Elite dungeon.

Not because it gets less hard, but because there is no more NEED to play your class as it's meant; Tank, DPS & Heal.

With pots 5 tanks can do it, none of them actually learning to keep aggro on you, 5 mages can do it etc.

To put is short; You took the ELITE out of it :(

fine remove the pot. option and I'd like to see how you'll deal with the bosses.

EDIT: well I've logged back in last night and noticed pots can be use in Frozen nightmare now -_-, so are you referring that map or the shadow caves? Well Frozen nightmare is pretty easy without pots specially with a good team but shadow caves, it's a different story considering the bosses can nearly KO you even with elixers, and btw my post was about the shadow cave dungeon and if it's Frozen nightmare you referring to then yes I do agree.

[baktus]

Its not a matter of me, but forcing all to play clever.

I have cleared all elite bosses in parties with only level 30'ish players - who knew how to play - because we made sure the party was well balanced (and yes, we all played wow/other mmorpgs before).

Now with pots, I can't get anywhere because people play without caution and brain.

So the elite part is gone = no fun

[Inching]

u do have the choice to not pot right? freedom of choice is a great thing.

[Norbert]

The pots were added since I started I think. I remember when I was on my first char and in my 30s or lower 40s joining a friend against Fridge and I'm pretty sure pots weren't available (can you say wipe? sure you can). Man, it was hard.

[Bigsleazy]

You always could use pots against fridge, he isn't part of an elite campaign

[Fyrce]

Um, the pots are due to the shadow caves elite campaign. Do that one w/o pots and then come on here and say you need to remove pots from elite campaigns. Please? It should be quick, so hurry and come post.

[Tsarra]

The pots don't seem to help much. Honestly, I still can't solo it. :P

[baktus]

if it's Frozen nightmare you referring to then yes I do agree.

It is Frozen Nightmare i am talking about

[Royce]

I agree about it being a shame they added pots to FN, and I posted my thoughts in another thread. Sadly I don't think we'll see the dungeon returned to being "elite", so IMO they should just remove that title from it...

[Ava]

hey you wanna do some real challenging stuff ? Go Forest Haven and run through the dungeons without using potions nor elixirs. UNequip all your armors and weapons. Use only your SKILLS and normal attack.
If you can survive it without dying ONCE .. guess what... you are TRULY an elite class player. OK ?

[Tsarra]

hey you wanna do some real challenging stuff ? Go Forest Haven and run through the dungeons without using potions nor elixirs. UNequip all your armors and weapons. Use only your SKILLS and normal attack.
If you can survive it without dying ONCE .. guess what... you are TRULY an elite class player. OK ?

This actually sounds like fun. Ima try it now. :P

Edit: Okay...that wasn't at all fun. Why would anyone want to do that on a phone?!

[giayuan]

Umm guys, try looking at this through a lvl30s point of view. Im sure us 50s have died at least once in FN due to accidental aggro or what not, but to a lvl30, FN is their shadow caves...lvl50s playin a lvl30 dungeon and complaining about it being too easy? HAH!

[Ava]

This actually sounds like fun. Ima try it now. :P

Edit: Okay...that wasn't at all fun. Why would anyone want to do that on a phone?!

Not feeling elite anymore ? Hey, go ask your elite friends run through it with ya again "naked". If ya can all survive, you guys are truly elite.

[Lesrider]

Not feeling elite anymore ? Hey, go ask your elite friends run through it with ya again "naked". If ya can all survive, you guys are truly elite.

Wow, what crawled up your....?

[Royce]

Umm guys, try looking at this through a lvl30s point of view. Im sure us 50s have died at least once in FN due to accidental aggro or what not, but to a lvl30, FN is their shadow caves...lvl50s playin a lvl30 dungeon and complaining about it being too easy? HAH!

I made a level 30 with frozen XP gain just for FN, and logged many hours there with my 30 when it was actually elite. It was some of the best PvE fun I've had in this game with a good group. Why would you just assume people would be approaching it from that slanted perspective?

[Ava]

Wow, what crawled up your....?

U did..........?

[Tsarra]

I enjoy playing a game on my phone with a community and having fun. I do not enjoy shredding all of the skin off of my fingers, spending countless hours looking for groups that actually know what they are doing and generally beating a dead horse like trying to solo some of these areas definitely is. Let's remember, I may enjoy playing with you all, but that doesn't mean that I'm particularly adept at approaching any of you for a group. Nor should I have to be. I'm all for scaling difficulty based on number of players in the instance on these levels, but I doubt anyone would agree with that, so I've kept it off the suggestion board. It's bad enough I have to use an MMO wiki to translate a third of what's said on the forums into readable English, but now I have to be friendly with people who think that your level of skill on a phone game dictates your worth as a person if I want to get anything done???

So anyway, my Lost Expedition still says 14/16. It probably will for a while. I like it like that. I also die a lot when I solo Plasma Pyramid. And I like that too. :)

[Dizzy]

This actually sounds like fun. Ima try it now. :P

Edit: Okay...that wasn't at all fun. Why would anyone want to do that on a phone?!

hehehe... had a good hearty giggle at this. *grin*

I agree with your other post as well. Some people take gaming far too seriously. My guild leader in another online game cursed me out and said I was a coward because I sacrificed myself for our guild. First of all, I sacrificed myself. Secondly, as online games have not become the barometer of bravery we had all hoped they would become, lay off the character assassinations, bud. Thirdly, I sacrificed myself. I do find it sort of hilarious that in this thread's case, someone is taking serious gaming too seriously. Ha.

Anyway, if you ever feel like teaming up for those last two quests, add my mage. No one should die alone! ;)

[Tsarra]

For the next elite area, I heard we won't be allowed to touch the screen...

[Royce]

Guys if real elite maps aren't for you (and they shouldn't be for everybody, hence the title elite), then play Lost Expedition. Frozen Noghtmares was put there for people who want that extra challenge, who want to play maps where actual teamwork and strategy is required for success. Some people, believe it or not, enjoy the feeling of accomplishment from rising to a challenge. It's really too bad the the mindless hack and slash whiners got what they wanted here again, leaving us without any challenging team content in the game once again. It not about wanting to be elite or anything like that, it's just that some people find actual challenging gameplay a lot more fun than mindless button mashing ;)

[Tsarra]

My only supposition is that I shouldn't die every time I round that first corner in FN, pots or no. Every time. I'd say 100 of the roughly 600 deaths I've enjoyed this past month were on that corner. Only once, with an enormous Level 50 group, did I ever see any other part of that area. Feel free to make fun if you like...there are probably some fundamental issues with trying to solo a pure mage build through elite areas, but the fights are so one-sided that I feel like I wasted my money. Not that I care, or really feel that way; every penny I've spent on this game has been worth it, as will all the ones I will spend going forward.

As an aside, if I COULD solo this area with my mage (and I haven't been in there since I hit 50 and picked up a full Keeper set), I imagine I'd feel pretty elite. :)

Edit: Ima try it.

[Tsarra]

The area is extremely difficult...but doable at Level 50 solo with a pure int mage. I'll shut up now. :p

Edit: As the whole point of this was about the potions, I will say that I didn't need them until the blue frost demon. With a group, I wouldn't need them at all.

[drewcapu]

I agree about it being a shame they added pots to FN, and I posted my thoughts in another thread. Sadly I don't think we'll see the dungeon returned to being "elite", so IMO they should just remove that title from it...

No need to to remove the whole title. Just one letter so that, instead of "Elite", it's just "Lite"

[Tsarra]

How about the game runs a check and enables pots if you're in there by yourself, but turns them off if you're grouped? Would that put the 'E' back in it for you guys?

[Ava]

Guys if real elite maps aren't for you (and they shouldn't be for everybody, hence the title elite), then play Lost Expedition. Frozen Noghtmares was put there for people who want that extra challenge, who want to play maps where actual teamwork and strategy is required for success. Some people, believe it or not, enjoy the feeling of accomplishment from rising to a challenge. It's really too bad the the mindless hack and slash whiners got what they wanted here again, leaving us without any challenging team content in the game once again. It not about wanting to be elite or anything like that, it's just that some people find actual challenging gameplay a lot more fun than mindless button mashing ;)

Uhh, well, you have the choice of NOT using pots if you so desire the "challenge". There are other players who prefer to use it whenever they wish.

It's all a matter of CHOICE. Don't be such a bah humbug ya ?

[Royce]

Uhh, well, you have the choice of NOT using pots if you so desire the "challenge". There are other players who prefer to use it whenever they wish.

It's all a matter of CHOICE. Don't be such a bah humbug ya ?

I'm not being a "bah humbug", I'm just saying it's a shame the whiny button mashers get their way. Why are you even posting here, just enjoy trolling? There are people who don't think it's fun to breeze through a game without effort, obviously you are not one of them, but we are entitled to our opinions. The same argument you make could be turned right back against the whiners, if FN was too hawd for your wittle beaws and ewvs, the just go to LE, you don't have to play elite content if you find the challenge too much ;)

[StompArtist]

I personally do not like using pots but the reason is that something is wrong with me brain. If I do pot up I die in 2 seconds sharp doing something utterly stupid... Dunno why but it happens every time.

[Fyrce]

I think for the average level 30s group, Nightmares IS elite. I wish it hadn't been nerfed and other things, but really, I've seen some average L30 groups in there and it's a really hard dungeon for them. They tell each other it's because it's for level 50s :) And then you see a group with a level 50 or two that also finds the dungeon hard and dies periodically.

Difficult, not super hard, but difficult.

[Ava]

I'm not being a "bah humbug", I'm just saying it's a shame the whiny button mashers get their way. Why are you even posting here, just enjoy trolling? There are people who don't think it's fun to breeze through a game without effort, obviously you are not one of them, but we are entitled to our opinions. The same argument you make could be turned right back against the whiners, if FN was too hawd for your wittle beaws and ewvs, the just go to LE, you don't have to play elite content if you find the challenge too much ;)

Ahh, I see, you want the the dungeons to be "Exclusive", not just elite. Only the rich and strong plays here aye ? Well then too bad, I paid for it anyway, wasn't an "exclusive" choice for me.
So yes, i shall play however I wish.

Wanna some cheese to go with the whine ?

When I feel like it, I'd go take my level 10 into that "elite" dungeon, OR I can take my level 50 toon and go raid that low level "elite" map just to feel all powerful, not.

So you see, you have the choice of how you wanna play, why are you so insistent in restricting how others can play ?

[Lesrider]

Lol I'm having fun reading this troll fest. The problem is that this game starts one way, stays that way for months, and then suddenly the devs change it drastically. If they would make the changes early on, people could decide whether or not it's for them, etc. But these changes (usually nerfs) come after people have already been enjoying it one way.
It happens to each campaign. Just wish the devs would make up their minds earlier.

Personally, I don't own FN, but I can see where Royce and others are coming from. Drastic changes like this should not come such a long time after it's already been released.

[Royce]

Ahh, I see, you want the the dungeons to be "Exclusive", not just elite. Only the rich and strong plays here aye ? Well then too bad, I paid for it anyway, wasn't an "exclusive" choice for me.
So yes, i shall play however I wish.

Wanna some cheese to go with the whine ?

When I feel like it, I'd go take my level 10 into that "elite" dungeon, OR I can take my level 50 toon and go raid that low level "elite" map just to feel all powerful, not.

So you see, you have the choice of how you wanna play, why are you so insistent in restricting how others can play ?

You are totally missing the point. I played some great games with groups of all 30s, and we did just fine and had a good time. Yes I think truly elite content should not be for everyone, only good players, who want to use strategy and teamwork. That was the whole intent of this campaign, to give something challenging to the players who crave it. I shouldn't have to make up my own rules to have fun and be challenged. Anyway, gratz troll, you are truly an accomplishe troll. Even the great trolls of all time would be impressed by your ignorance and ability to annoy. As a prize you are only the third person in nearly a year to make my forum ignore list. Have a nice trollish life.

[Ava]

You are totally missing the point. I played some great games with groups of all 30s, and we did just fine and had a good time. Yes I think truly elite content should not be for everyone, only good players, who want to use strategy and teamwork. That was the whole intent of this campaign, to give something challenging to the players who crave it. I shouldn't have to make up my own rules to have fun and be challenged. Anyway, gratz troll, youare truly an accomplishe troll. Even the great trolls of all time would be impressed by your ignorance and ability to annoy. As a prize you are only the third person in nearly a year to make my forum ignore list. Have a nice trollish life.

Tsk tsk, all the name calling during a disagreement. How sad the world has become.

[StompArtist]

Ahh, I see, you want the the dungeons to be "Exclusive", not just elite. Only the rich and strong plays here aye ? Well then too bad, I paid for it anyway, wasn't an "exclusive" choice for me.
So yes, i shall play however I wish.

Wanna some cheese to go with the whine ?

When I feel like it, I'd go take my level 10 into that "elite" dungeon, OR I can take my level 50 toon and go raid that low level "elite" map just to feel all powerful, not.

So you see, you have the choice of how you wanna play, why are you so insistent in restricting how others can play ?

Everyone can play as they wish within the confine and framework of the game. This includes potions, booting, running around the dungeon spamming "look at me I am nekkid" or whatever else you may feel like doing. The game is also designed for the person who has started the dungeon to boot other people out FOR WHATEVER reason they may have. This includes "just because they can". This is how the game was designed. So yep you can play your way but expect other players to do the same and this may include not playing with you. No big deal I am sure there is plenty of players that do not like playing with me. Doesn't bother me one bit.

[Ava]

Lol I'm having fun reading this troll fest. The problem is that this game starts one way, stays that way for months, and then suddenly the devs change it drastically. If they would make the changes early on, people could decide whether or not it's for them, etc. But these changes (usually nerfs) come after people have already been enjoying it one way.
It happens to each campaign. Just wish the devs would make up their minds earlier.

Personally, I don't own FN, but I can see where Royce and others are coming from. Drastic changes like this should not come such a long time after it's already been released.

Always the Devs fault aye ? Not really.

They did what they need to do , to keep as many players happy as possible. Not just the fanatics you see.

In the beginning, PL fanatics had their run, now let the casuals play. Whats wrong with that ?

[Ava]

Everyone can play as they wish within the confine and framework of the game. This includes potions, booting, running around the dungeon spamming "look at me I am nekkid" or whatever else you may feel like doing. The game is also designed for the person who has started the dungeon to boot other people out FOR WHATEVER reason they may have. This includes "just because they can". This is how the game was designed. So yep you can play your way but expect other players to do the same and this may include not playing with you. No big deal I am sure there is plenty of players that do not like playing with me. Doesn't bother me one bit.

U got it right dude.

[Lesrider]

Always the Devs fault aye ? Not really.

They did what they need to do , to keep as many players happy as possible. Not just the fanatics you see.

In the beginning, PL fanatics had their run, now let the casuals play. Whats wrong with that ?

Um, yes. Everything is the devs' fault. Both the good and the bad. Last time I checked, they're the only ones with the ability to change the game in any way. The players can suggest, give feedback, whine, praise. But in the end it's all up to the devs what happens. So who else would you blame/congratulate for these things?

As for Letting casuals play -- the entire game is for casual players!!! They nerf every map to make it for casuL players! People who prefer a bigger challenge should be allowed to keep the one map that offers that challenge.

And people should not have tocreate their own hallenges in the game -- that's just dumb. In any game, no matter how hard or easy, people are always going to try to find the easiest and fastest way to succeed in it. Why would you make it harder for yourself for no reason? If the rewards were better for playing naked or without pots, that would be one thing. But if potters and non-potters get the same rewards, why would you make it herder onyourself so it takes you longer to get the reward than others.

It's like saying -- "I want to make this game more challenging, so I'm going to stay at lvl 1 and play all the maps that way." It makes no sense. Why would anyone do it?

[StompArtist]

Ok I don't even understand why there is a debate here... No one can force anyone else to pot up!

[Royce]

Ok I don't even understand why there is a debate here... No one can force anyone else to pot up!

The discussion is about health and mana pots not elixers. Originally health and mana pots could not be used on elite maps, though there were health and mana orb pickups. Unfortunately, like everything truly challenging in this game, it was nerfed and now they are allowed there.

[Ava]

Um, yes. Everything is the devs' fault. Both the good and the bad. Last time I checked, they're the only ones with the ability to change the game in any way. The players can suggest, give feedback, whine, praise. But in the end it's all up to the devs what happens. So who else would you blame/congratulate for these things?

As for Letting casuals play -- the entire game is for casual players!!! They nerf every map to make it for casuL players! People who prefer a bigger challenge should be allowed to keep the one map that offers that challenge.

And people should not have tocreate their own hallenges in the game -- that's just dumb. In any game, no matter how hard or easy, people are always going to try to find the easiest and fastest way to succeed in it. Why would you make it harder for yourself for no reason? If the rewards were better for playing naked or without pots, that would be one thing. But if potters and non-potters get the same rewards, why would you make it herder onyourself so it takes you longer to get the reward than others.

It's like saying -- "I want to make this game more challenging, so I'm going to stay at lvl 1 and play all the maps that way." It makes no sense. Why would anyone do it?

Poor Devs, I'd give them a hug. It's damn if you do, and damn if you don't.

First, it's about rewards (devs) , then it's about the challenge (player)..... So, it's really about the reward ain't it ? Is it worth it ? Is it better than what others get ? The competition !!!!

Why couldn't players create their own challenges in the game ? Who's stopping you ? Yourself. Did the devs says " NO running around naked". " Mandatory POT usage in this map". " Mandatory cyber armor ONLY". " Enter at your OWN risk". No they didn't.

Now the rewards.. that's what truly defines this game isn't it ? Heck those AO quests are causing my thumb blisters. That's plenty of torture for some good stuff. Yes ?

[StompArtist]

The discussion is about health and mana pots not elixers. Originally health and mana pots could not be used on elite maps, though there were health and mana orb pickups. Unfortunately, like everything truly challenging in this game, it was nerfed and now they are allowed there.

Ya I just read back and it seemed to have changed towards pots early on. My apologies.

[Dizzy]

Speaking as someone who can solo most maps but still can't solo FN without pots, why must every map appeal to every type of player? If more casual players want to play, almost every map allows that. What's wrong with have a map or two for people who find the other maps too easy and want something challenging.

And throwing around the word "Elite" like it's an insult is to misunderstand what that word means. "Elite" doesn't mean "I think I'm better than you, huzzah ELITE!!" It's a label for a map for those players who have played longer and have put more into the game than a casual player and who want something a little more skill-appropriate. I mean, you do understand the presence of elite maps is not a personal insult to you, right?

It's like going skiing once every couple of years and expecting every slope to be a bunny.

Play the game anyway you want. Play casually, play hardcore. One isn't any better than the other. But if you're casual, stop whining about maps that are too hard that aren't meant for casual players. You enjoy your style of play. Don't begrudge others how they want to play just because some maps don't cater to your play style.

And now I'm done feeding the troll

[Ava]

The discussion is about health and mana pots not elixers. Originally health and mana pots could not be used on elite maps, though there were health and mana orb pickups. Unfortunately, like everything truly challenging in this game, it was nerfed and now they are allowed there.

Frankly I don't quite care for the orbs. I think those are dumb ideas, because there's too many dumb players. I leave them orbs for players who really need it, so they can save a pot or two.
I played with several, just to quote an example, a str bear with full health bar running for the orb, when those are meant for squishy toons almost dying.

So, yeah.. good job devs. Orbs are stupid except for Gurgox the big fart.

[Ava]

Speaking as someone who can solo most maps but still can't solo FN without pots, why must every map appeal to every type of player? If more casual players want to play, almost every map allows that. What's wrong with have a map or two for people who find the other maps too easy and want something challenging.

And throwing around the word "Elite" like it's an insult is to misunderstand what that word means. "Elite" doesn't mean "I think I'm better than you, huzzah ELITE!!" It's a label for a map for those players who have played longer and have put more into the game than a casual player and who want something a little more skill-appropriate. I mean, you do understand the presence of elite maps is not a personal insult to you, right?

It's like going skiing once every couple of years and expecting every slope to be a bunny.

Play the game anyway you want. Play casually, play hardcore. One isn't any better than the other. But if you're casual, stop whining about maps that are too hard that aren't meant for casual players. You enjoy your style of play. Don't begrudge others how they want to play just because some maps don't cater to your play style.

And now I'm done feeding the troll

Sure, call someone a troll, when they don't agree. How nice.

That just means you've ran out of intelligent things to say and have to resort to name callings and trashing. That's kinda pathetic.

[StompArtist]

Frankly I don't quite care for the orbs. I think those are dumb ideas, because there's too many dumb players. I leave them orbs for players who really need it, so they can save a pot or two.
I played with several, just to quote an example, a str bear with full health bar running for the orb, when those are meant for squishy toons almost dying.

So, yeah.. good job devs. Orbs are stupid except for Gurgox the big fart.

Ok. Now I am confused. You are saying "no potions" and "no orbs"?

[Ava]

Ok. Now I am confused. You are saying "no potions" and "no orbs"?

Frankly I don't care, they wanna have the orbs there with or pots or whatever, I ain't the one complaining. I just choose not to use em whenever/whichever..

[StompArtist]

Frankly I don't care, they wanna have the orbs there with or pots or whatever, I ain't the one complaining. I just choose not to use em whenever/whichever..

Well then unless someone has issues with your ability not to use pots there is really nothing to debate is there?

[Ava]

Speaking as someone who can solo most maps but still can't solo FN without pots, why must every map appeal to every type of player? If more casual players want to play, almost every map allows that. What's wrong with have a map or two for people who find the other maps too easy and want something challenging.

And throwing around the word "Elite" like it's an insult is to misunderstand what that word means. "Elite" doesn't mean "I think I'm better than you, huzzah ELITE!!" It's a label for a map for those players who have played longer and have put more into the game than a casual player and who want something a little more skill-appropriate. I mean, you do understand the presence of elite maps is not a personal insult to you, right?

It's like going skiing once every couple of years and expecting every slope to be a bunny.

Play the game anyway you want. Play casually, play hardcore. One isn't any better than the other. But if you're casual, stop whining about maps that are too hard that aren't meant for casual players. You enjoy your style of play. Don't begrudge others how they want to play just because some maps don't cater to your play style.

And now I'm done feeding the troll

If you want more challenging homework, you go seek out more challenging subjects/topics in the library or take your older brother's MBA books to challenge yourself. Ya don't whine and wait for your teacher to hand you some senior students workbook, or complain your teacher ain't challenging you enough. Grow up , ok ?

The ski slopes are ALL bunny hills for me, if I want some challenge, I go roll down one in a wooden barrel. Hows that for a challenge ?

[Dizzy]

Sure, call someone a troll, when they don't agree. How nice.

That just means you've ran out of intelligent things to say and have to resort to name callings and trashing. That's kinda pathetic.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. You're needlessly defensive and confrontational even when people try to discuss things rationally with you, and this isn't the first thread you've derailed with your ranting style of posting. Also, I'm capable of calling names and still having plenty of intelligent things to say. One thing does not preclude the other. But nice strawman argument there.

I made plenty of valid points which you chose to ignore. That just means you've got no response and you concede to me. Ah I see how it works...

*added to ignore list* life's too short...

[Ava]

Well then unless someone has issues with your ability not to use pots there is really nothing to debate is there?

Finally, someone who actually thinks!

[Ava]

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. You're needlessly defensive and confrontational even when people try to discuss things rationally with you, and this isn't the first thread you've derailed with your ranting style of posting. Also, I'm capable of calling names and still having plenty of intelligent things to say. One thing does not preclude the other. But nice strawman argument there.

I made plenty of valid points which you chose to ignore. That just means you've got no response and you concede to me. Ah I see how it works...

*added to ignore list* life's too short...

Ahh yes, life is too short indeed. I didn't ignore you, I just don't like to repeat myself to people who are too lazy to read.

Besides, too bad for you, intellects don't do name calling. Name callings are for dumb people. OK ? Good.

[baktus]

Focus!

Allowing pots makes it easier. = not elite anymore.

As I said; I cleared all Nightmare bosses in only 30'ish groups - but all players were experiences WoW/MMORPG'ers.

"You can just avoid taking your pots" is missing my point. Since I can't control if other players use pots, lesser skilled players will enter and use critical time on pot'ing (saving themselves from bad playing) instead of playing their role in the team (tanking/healing/DPS'ing).

Devs: Give us something TRULY ELITE to beat before we are 50....

[Pharcyde]

I decided to finish frozen nightmares after they added pots. I didn't feel like buying pots so I got 320 snowballs yesterday with zero potions. The dungeons not even hard without potions. If you want a real challenge beyond potion guzzling in the shadow elite, make a level 30 group and run frozen nightmares with no potions. Its the only real challenge left in the game that isn't "Use 4000 potions a day or your screwed".