After One Year, Enough is Enough

[Niixed]

I'd like to start this thread by thanking the staff at STS. You really don't get enough thanks for all the........, um........ personalities(!) you must deal with on a daily basis. With thousands of player egos being constantly bruised and battered in PvP... Well, I'm guessing you draw straws to see who must read and respond to the PvP support emails. Lol.

I don't claim to always be a rational or reasonable player all of the time. Anyone who claims to be above the fray while in the fray has a 100% chance of being a liar. When I PvP I do endeavor to temper my emotions because they will kill my kdr faster than an arcane rogue ever could. I play an endgame sorcerer somewhat famous for using gale force to escape the battle before it ends badly, which helps mightily with reducing the number of deaths.

I have been playing Arcane Legends for a year now, I started playing heavily during the Halloween event last year. I waited until I capped to engage in PvP with my mage and, of course, it was a rude awakening. I'm extraordinarily stubborn so I tried many combinations of mage skills and inexpensive pets/gear hoping to find an edge, but there simply wasn't any. Eventually I upgraded to mythic gear and pets (minus the weapon) and the results were better, but PvP is still a struggle.

I have invested a lot of time, effort and money into my character, so I feel protective of 'him.' When you play a mage in PvP it's difficult not to notice the other two classes target you first because they know you are likely to be an easy/quick kill. Each class has (or is supposed to have) tradeoffs. The mage gets higher damage for lower health and armor.

After one year in PvP in Arcane Legends I can say with near-absolute certainty that the sorcerer class is unfairly underpowered.

The tradeoff is not at all worth it. It's a joke and I'm just a bit upset about it.

Rogues do far, far, FAR (did I mention far?!?) more damage than a mage yet have much better armor, health and skills than a mage. This makes no sense to me. Are rogues inherently worth more than mages? Right now the answer is an emphatic 'yes.' Mages get diddly squat in comparison.

Warriors do much less damage, but their heavy armor and super awesome skill buffs mean a mage must last a very, very long time vs a warrior in order to kill him. This means that most mages will lose most of the time against an equally geared warrior. I do have a solution - how about a cool new mage skill called aimed lightning? It could have a 5 sec crit bonus upgrade! And, it could even have a long-standing uncorrected glitch that makes it crit like crazy. :)

I understand the tradeoff scheme it way more complex than just damage vs health and armor. Skills and gear are supposed to make up the difference. But the mage doesn't get enough, not by an long (aimed) shot.

Each class should be treated equally, but for one reason or another that hasn't happened. Think about the mage green santa suit from the winter event last year... would STS have allowed such a hideous, mocking vanity to be released for rogue or warrior? Maybe there's nothing to that, but the optics look as terrible as that vanity.

Who at STS is watching out for the short little blue guy with bat ears and no feet???

Finally, I have two questions that continue to perplex me.

1) As previously implied, the Rogue skill Aimed Shot is severely, ludicrously overpowered. An arcane rogue should not be able to one-shot an equally geared mage or two-shot a warrior 100% of the time. STS, WHY ARE ON EARTH ARE YOU OK WITH THIS??? It is definitely not ok! If a mage is caught by surprise or the shield is on cooldown (or even fully active!), the battle is over before it even starts EVERY SINGLE TIME. I'm ok with taking 75% or even 90% of health. I'm OK with a one-shot death maybe 10-20% of the time. But, a one-shot every time is not ok. Also, a two second cooldown for such a op skill is just plain disrespectful to everyone, including other Rogues.

2) It's an open secret the Rogues claim 23/25 spots on the Overall leaderboard for both CTF Kills and TDM Kills.

About midday Friday I added up the total kills of the top 25 for each class:



CTF 25
Kills


Total
2,894,945


Rogue
1,310,911


Sorcerer
792,144


Warrior
791,890





TDM 25
Kills


Total
1,813,042


Rogue
875,816


Sorcerer
514,204


Warrior
423,022



Please explain to me how this is class balance?

Lol. That's kind of a trick question. I would like to explain to you what I think class balance should be, but that will be in my next post tomorrow about this subject.

[uunknownn]

Class balance cant be prove by number of kills man;p

[Anarchist]

The classes are balanced with mage slighty weaker than the other two classes but it gains being Al pve killamachine.

[Bless]

Pvp isn't about 1v1. Get over it. Team deathmatch and CTF are both team games.

Mages >= rogues in clash.

[UndeadJudge]

Pvp isn't about 1v1. Get over it. Team deathmatch and CTF are both team games.

Mages >= rogues in clash.

You should play a Mage knowing you will always die in 1 shot no matter what happens. Either way, mages curse isn't even effective anymore especially with bulwark buff. It's extremely hard to play a Mage in clash since with shield on cd, you can die in seconds to a group of warriors or in an instant if a rogue hits you.


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[Bless]

Pvp isn't about 1v1. Get over it. Team deathmatch and CTF are both team games.

Mages >= rogues in clash.

You should play a Mage knowing you will always die in 1 shot no matter what happens. Either way, mages curse isn't even effective anymore especially with bulwark buff. It's extremely hard to play a Mage in clash since with shield on cd, you can die in seconds to a group of warriors or in an instant if a rogue hits you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk A lot of the mages I play with seem to do fine in equally geared clashes. Teamwork is of course a big deal here.

The only time there is a problem is when gear/pets are not equal.

[Anarchist]

You should play a Mage knowing you will always die in 1 shot no matter what happens. Either way, mages curse isn't even effective anymore especially with bulwark buff. It's extremely hard to play a Mage in clash since with shield on cd, you can die in seconds to a group of warriors or in an instant if a rogue hits you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Same for rogues.
No wait, rogues don't even have a sheild at all!! See you lucky? :)

[UndeadJudge]

Same for rogues.
No wait, rogues don't even have a sheild at all!! See you lucky? :)

Rogues can live combos..mages die even if they don't crit.


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[Anarchist]

Rogues can live combos..mages die even if they don't crit.


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Catching a mage without is sheild up is exactly like a mage catching a rogue without razor up.
In the first situation you get comboed(if the rogue crits)
In the second situation the rogue get stunned and finished(if the mage crits).

In clashes a rogue has to drop packs then in the confusion try picking them(taken he even sees where they drop) and fingers crossed you don't get stunned/panicked/rooted.
Mana most of times run out before you can say "mana" and if there are no mages in your team GG.
So mages are strong and important in some cases just like every other class and not just the weaklings they wanna pass themselves for. :)

[Bless]

Same for rogues.
No wait, rogues don't even have a sheild at all!! See you lucky? :)

Rogues can live combos..mages die even if they don't crit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Lol? Mages have 10x more armor with arcane shield. What level do you even play that mages are do Under powered in clash?

[UndeadJudge]

Lol? Mages have 10x more armor with arcane shield. What level do you even play that mages are do Under powered in clash?

27, 41. But I was talking about with shield off (and yes my 27 can get 1 comboed with shield).


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[Niixed]

Class balance cant be prove by number of kills man;p

You're right that the overall number of kills leaderboards should be discontinued immediately.

[Niixed]

The classes are balanced with mage slighty weaker than the other two classes but it gains being Al pve killamachine.

When I'm being farmed because I'm a mage I just think about my PvE kills and I feel sooo much better. Oh, wait... NO I DON'T.

Mages are much weaker (not slightly). Tell me you don't seek out mages first in PvP and I'll probably laugh out loud. Even other mages do! There is a true imbalance and I will be proving it.

[uunknownn]

Pvp isn't about 1v1. Get over it. Team deathmatch and CTF are both team games.

Mages >= rogues in clash. 100% i agree on this.

[Anarchist]

When I'm being farmed because I'm a mage I just think about my PvE kills and I feel sooo much better. Oh, wait... NO I DON'T.

Mages are much weaker (not slightly). Tell me you don't seek out mages first in PvP and I'll probably laugh out loud. Even other mages do! There is a true imbalance and I will be proving it.
When i pvped i use to prefer killing in this order:
1)Rogues
2)Mages
.
.
.
.
.
Wars if i really really had to and i saw they were undergeared. :P

Mages are really good in a team of two and upwards.

[Raregem]

P.S. why not try a vs game of 5 rogues vs 5 sorcs? You'd be surprised which side gets farmed. Then perhaps you may see which class truly sucks XD

This!

Though I do think that they should reduce the CD on shield.

[Niixed]

Pvp isn't about 1v1. Get over it. Team deathmatch and CTF are both team games.

Mages >= rogues in clash.

Here's me not getting over it.

Not about 1v1? That's hysterical coming from you. No, I don't accept the clash/support role you would love to impose on mages for your own benefit. Rogues take the majority of kills in clashes, but you already knew that. lol

[Zeus]

1v1 is not the way to judge balance. Why? A skilled rogue will absolutely murder anything and everything in a 1v1. Developers designed balance from a team point of view. So, in that sense, they are balanced.

However, I do agree that a little buff on the shield, like, granting stun immunity during duration would be a nice buff for sorcerers.

[Soundlesskill]

The classes are balanced. The gear is what makes the difference. Alone a mythic bow bumps my dmg with 100.

Mages aren't SUPPOSED to do the same amount of DMG as a rouge

Mage > Rouge -> Warr -> Mage

[Soundlesskill]

P.S. why not try a vs game of 5 rogues vs 5 sorcs? You'd be surprised which side gets farmed. Then perhaps you may see which class truly sucks XD

This

[Niixed]

1v1 is not the way to judge balance. Why? A skilled rogue will absolutely murder anything and everything in a 1v1. Developers designed balance from a team point of view. So, in that sense, they are balanced.

However, I do agree that a little buff on the shield, like, granting stun immunity during duration would be a nice buff for sorcerers.

With my current spec, my mage can take out nearly every rogue without an arcane ring in 1v1. However, I cannot take out most warriors who are equally (or even a little less) geared at my level.

To clarify, I was saying that PvP is primarily about 1v1, but ofc it is also about team combinations like 1v2, 3v4, etc. The acronym means Player versus Player, not Players vs Players. Most players don't enter CTF thinking about how great it would be for their team to capture 5 flags and win the game. That would actually be fun, but it has never happened even once in a year of PvP in AL. Lol. TDM does lend itself to teamplay more (and mages do do slightly better there).

As you've inferred with you shield/stun immunity suggestion, the imbalance is that mages are too easy to kill. Warriors supposedly sacrifice damage for great health and armor, but if I'm up against a similarly geared/skilled warrior the battle isn't even close.

[Bless]

With my current spec, my mage can take out nearly every rogue without an arcane ring in 1v1. Vs me

Ign bless

[Jdogxtreme]

I agree that mages should be buffed in some way. I do not know how, I do not use a Mage. But I have played endgame, and I have twinked. At almost any level, no one even ATTEMPTS to try Mage. And the ones who do, are very brave and extremely skilled. It's just too hard, and they're just too weak. Mages don't even start to get balanced until level 31, that's when they start to even out. But even then, it's not like they're superheroes. They could definitely use some kind of buff to make them a little more OP. And I know they can be beasts in clash, but so are the other classes. So rogues can be pro vs and pro clash. Tanks can be pro vs and pro clash, and mages can't even touch them. Mages can be pro clash, and only the extremely skilled ones can vs? I don't see the balance there.

[Bless]

1v1 is not the way to judge balance. Why? A skilled rogue will absolutely murder anything and everything in a 1v1. Developers designed balance from a team point of view. So, in that sense, they are balanced.

However, I do agree that a little buff on the shield, like, granting stun immunity during duration would be a nice buff for sorcerers. Agreed, 1v1s are mostly for the single target damage specialists.

[SacredKnight]

Honestly, I really wish people would fight together in TDM and CTF rather than go "Oh, what's your guid" or wait there and do nothing. Possibly even say "Don't gang!" when the clash started with 3v3 and the other two of their team mates died. These days PvP is becoming too much like "Guild wars" or for personal gain and in fear of not doing the proper "educate" even though everything they're doing is what no one would have expected anyone to do when PvP first came out.

All I have to say is.. PvP is kinda ridiculous right now, honestly.

[Tehh]

Rogues will probably aslo have the most deaths

[forumspammer]

I play at twinks (because end game is so expensive). Today while playing my average-geared level 16 rogue with dova and farmed a level 16 sorc with nekro. after the game it turns out that his damage is 172 (a hell of a damage for a nott in this level). My rogue is average 135 damage. i'm happy that I didn't have to max-out my rogue just to farm a maxed-out sorc (he had a nekro for crying out load).

but in this thread, I totaly agree that sorcerer class is severly outclassed in PVP by others.

[conradev]

The problem (as I see it) is the same it's always been. Too many people crying for changes and too many changes/buffs/nerfs granted by the development team.

The best way to level a playing ground is time...time for sorcerers to evolve tactics based on what little we feel like we have. Part of that was killed in skills switching removal, right before it was mistakenly and blunderously removed was a time that you would see all classes Vsing each other in exciting matches with varying outcomes.

Change was made, now there are barely any of us still killing wars.

The new mythic weapons were purely a testement to the things less-skilled players cried about... I.e. not enough armor (mage)...in comes terrible buff rendering kershal useless to 99% of mages (myself not included).

And I'm sorry, I don't know what planet you are all living on, but tanks to not always suck at damage...on the contrary, most of the tanks I target in CTF have damage listed which is higher than mine and they actually DO more damage as well.

And for the record, I have used gun for maybe 2, 3 weeks...I've seen proc in that time in total about half of what I see any Warrior weapon proc in a single vs.

Finally, NO class should have stun immunity for any amount of time, or all should have it. I know, despite what some have tried to force others to believe, that the original intention of Razor Shields spinning freedom was to remove movement impairing effects after they have occurred, "movement impairing" is a class of debuff which is not stun. It is slow, root, snare, charm...etc. These are debuffs which do not remove use of your own skills. Stuns remove use of skills. And if the devs want to change that fact it needs to be listed as such, because stun is more important to note than mkvement impairing effect (which is not the same thing as stuns in other MMOs). And if they do decide to list spinning freedom as a stun remover, you should also know that I cant kill a few rogues 50/50 or better who are Arcane, decent, and have Arcane pets....That is an issue, not for me idc about dying anyone will say, but if I am unable to do it, there is high probability other mages wont either. Rogues running around unstunned throwing single attacks for literally more health than I even have (4 and 5k damage), while my shield is weakened from aimed shot and I am stunlocked for 2 to 5 seconds is ludacris.

And ftr, aimed shot still lowers our shield even if tapped during our 2sec so-called "invulnerability"...is that right?

[conradev]

Lets be real ppl...not all of us are in the only 2 true clashing guilds (Karma, Magnum) the nature of CTF and TDM for most of us is 99% free for all killing, which almost always ends up as people whoare not a member of the 2 clash guilds being ganged out of the room via their spawn...if an chance entrance in a room during a clash for most players not in karma or magnum or not literally of the best gear or highest skillset or combination of the 2 usually ends in the team they joined begging them to "out" "need spot" "leave now" ... and if then an agreeance between both sides to farm them out of the room until they leave. How often do you think clashes of averave geared L41s occurs?I would not be at all surprised to find out it has never occurred...even once.

So plz dont use "meant for team" as an argument, because it is near insanely invalid...PVP is a solo sport in this game almost always and everyone hear knows it...I don't care what your "in a perfect world" match ideas are, bc if we were in a perfect arlor, there wouldnt be so much cruelty and exploitation.

[Anarchist]

Preach.
Ctf is 95% of the times gang and street fight while tdm that should be less cooperative and more street fight is 95% of the time team worked (lol)

Pvp definately needs :
Guild vs Guild. (Where mages can shine)
One vs One.

First 1vs1 room.

[Niixed]

Rogues will probably aslo have the most deaths

You've hit on possibly the most important point in the class balance debate. If the cost of having op damage is highest number of class deaths, I would be ok with that. Since Rogue defense (armor/health/defense skills/etc) is far better than mage defense I doubt rogues have the highest number of deaths. I would bet real money mages are the ones paying the price.

[Tehh]

You've hit on possibly the most important point in the class balance debate. If the cost of having op damage is highest number of class deaths, I would be ok with that. Since Rogue defense (armor/health/defense skills/etc) is far better than mage defense I doubt rogues have the highest number of deaths. I would bet real money mages are the ones paying the price.

Mages defiantly have the most deaths, but rogues die really easy to other rogues and mages. All it takes is a stun. Crawly is my worst nightmare lol

[Bless]

Endgame rogues easily are the squishiest class in *normal* combat, therefore we have significantly higher death ratio.

The arcane shield gives mage the armor that a buffed tank has. And us? We are the same at all times - Veil being the only buff (which is useless in pvp still)

[conradev]

The arcane shield gives mage the armor that a buffed tank has. And us? We are the same at all times - Veil being the only buff (which is useless in pvp still)

The Arcane shield is weakened and armor reduced by attacks. The same amount of armor does significantly higher damage reduction for Warrior and Rogue than it does for mage. I play with 1089 armor and sometimes more than 2600 during full gun armor bonus gale armor bonus and wearing legendary armor and archon ring of fitness and I cant tell you there is barely a difference between the 1089 and 2600+ when I am being hit during tank vs. And with both numbers I still am one-hit by rogues.

[aquascaper]

the only major handicap in a sorceror is the significant inability to take down wars of equivalent skill and gear

This is 100% true imo

[aquascaper]

When I'm being farmed because I'm a mage I just think about my PvE kills and I feel sooo much better. Oh, wait... NO I DON'T.

Mages are much weaker (not slightly). Tell me you don't seek out mages first in PvP and I'll probably laugh out loud. Even other mages do! There is a true imbalance and I will be proving it.

I'm a mage and I seek out rogues 1st. :P I use shield, curse, then fireball/pet aa, followed by lightning. When 2 mages fight, gear matters so much - the same with mage/warrior. I only go for mages if I have equal or better gear than them (this is unusual because I have expedition rifle lol). Curse/Shield does a significant amount of damage when hit with aimed shot. My new kdr is around 1:1.5 (I got farmed by twinks when I did pvp while still leveling, so my actual kdr isn't 1:1.5).

+1 on mages being "much weaker" though

[conradev]

I'm a mage and I seek out rogues 1st. :P I use shield, curse, then fireball/pet aa, followed by lightning. When 2 mages fight, gear matters so much - the same with mage/warrior. I only go for mages if I have equal or better gear than them (this is unusual because I have expedition rifle lol). Curse/Shield does a significant amount of damage when hit with aimed shot. My new kdr is around 1:1.5 (I got farmed by twinks when I did pvp while still leveling, so my actual kdr isn't 1:1.5).

+1 on mages being "much weaker" though
Curse is effective against DoT skills like ice, fire, nox bolt, time shift. Curse is rarely effective against most rogues anymore, curse is almost exclusively a Mage vs (barely) and clash skill.

[UndeadJudge]

Curse is effective against DoT skills like ice, fire, nox bolt, time shift. Curse is rarely effective against most rogues anymore, curse is almost exclusively a Mage vs (barely) and clash skill.

^ this! getting hit by an aimed hurts the sorcerer way more than the rogues.

However, in TDM, it's quite nice to have a curse on enemy rogues - their damage gets nerfed to ctf damage.


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[Aslanx]

Class balance cant be prove by number of kills man;p
look whos talking, *points at sig(lvl23 rogue) -.-

[Aslanx]

Looking at this thread, looks like a shield buff is coming soon ..hopefully

[Nesox]

Looking at this thread, looks like a shield buff is coming soon ..hopefully

Mage HP/Health/Dmg mechanics are the real issue. The mechanics need to be improved so that shield is a choice rather than a requirement. This would make it a compromise skill like every other. Our shield being too weak is not the issue; programming mechanics being weak is the issue. When I can one shot kill rogues on a regular basis and/or actually survive an opening volly without shield active I will be more content. Buffing shield to make mages almost invincible for 15 seconds to make up for the following 15 seconds of insta-death is not a 'fix' that will make anyone happy.

[Zeus]

Mage HP/Health/Dmg mechanics are the real issue. The mechanics need to be improved so that shield is a choice rather than a requirement. This would make it a compromise skill like every other. Our shield being too weak is not the issue; programming mechanics being weak is the issue. When I can one shot kill rogues on a regular basis and/or actually survive an opening volly without shield active I will be more content. Buffing shield to make mages almost invincible for 15 seconds to make up for the following 15 seconds of insta-death is not a 'fix' that will make anyone happy.

All classes have some sort of requirement in PvP. For rogues, it's packs & aimed shot. For warriors, it's feeble, heal, and juggernaut. Mages have the most versatility in the sense that they only really need one skill: shield.

Should mages be buffed? Yes. However, it should be through their skills - not through their intended weaknesses.

[ketoh]

:eagerness:

[RIP]

Rogues are like assassins , a rogue's goal is to eliminate a target at it's weaker state , thats why rogues actually do the biggest amount of damage , and thats why rogues are fast and obviously provided with an anti-stun skill such as the " razor shield " , warriors AKA tanks are meant to cover and to tank , mages are meant to support , the game is designed for 5 vs 5 AKA clash AKA guildwars , thus rogues are meant to have the most amount of kills , if you would like to eliminate targets quickly be a rogue , if you would like to cover your team and heal them be a warrior , if you would like to deal a great amount of damage and stun your enemies leaving them defenseless before your assassins be a mage .

[Aslanx]

Rogues are like assassins , a rogue's goal is to eliminate a target at it's weaker state , thats why rogues actually do the biggest amount of damage , and thats why rogues are fast and obviously provided with an anti-stun skill such as the " razor shield " , warriors AKA tanks are meant to cover and to tank , mages are meant to support , the game is designed for 5 vs 5 AKA clash AKA guildwars , thus rogues are meant to have the most amount of kills , if you would like to eliminate targets quickly be a rogue , if you would like to cover your team and heal them be a warrior , if you would like to deal a great amount of damage and stun your enemies leaving them defenseless before your assassins be a mage .

Who said 5v5 has to be a guildwar, but I guess karma sees everything as one anyways ..... "JOIN NOW" "JOIIIIIIIN" "jjjjjjjjj its 4v1 we need another maul for the smurf!"...
I think u get the message.. :p

[Aslanx]

Mage HP/Health/Dmg mechanics are the real issue. The mechanics need to be improved so that shield is a choice rather than a requirement. This would make it a compromise skill like every other. Our shield being too weak is not the issue; programming mechanics being weak is the issue. When I can one shot kill rogues on a regular basis and/or actually survive an opening volly without shield active I will be more content. Buffing shield to make mages almost invincible for 15 seconds to make up for the following 15 seconds of insta-death is not a 'fix' that will make anyone happy.

Yes!, so we need less cd time on mage shield, exactly ty! That's all mages need, even 3 more seconds could make a huge difference !

[Quickrr]

I'm really starting to get irritated because mods actually follow through with this if a lot are complaining if rogues get nerfed even more it won't be fun mages are fine... They are the most depended on classes In the game for gw's and every class was made different for a reason u can't expect every class to be even you gotta find ways to separate yourself from the rest by complaining about rogue damage youre just like every other mage. If i were a mage id i want to figure out a way to be unstoppable rather complain to the devs and make if easier also a mage is normally known for low armor and HP high mana etc in all games also you end gamers gotta start thinking about the lower levels because we're suffering here from the damage Nerf constant endless fights. :'(

[phillyr]

If 90% of mages attack skills are nerffed to be useless...why arent the other 2 classes artack skills nerffed? We dont root freeze or hardly stun...why should aimed shot take armor add crit and add dmg everytime they fire it? Why should rogue and war skills work as intended when ours are basically worthless?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[Bless]

If 90% of mages attack skills are nerffed to be useless...why arent the other 2 classes artack skills nerffed? We dont root freeze or hardly stun...why should aimed shot take armor add crit and add dmg everytime they fire it? Why should rogue and war skills work as intended when ours are basically worthless?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer �� Why is rogue 10% damage nerfed in pvp? Why is warrior heal weakened in pvp?

Because they'd be fricken OP; just like some mage skills.

The nerfs apply to all classes, therefore that argument is invalid.

[Serancha]

2) It's an open secret the Rogues claim 23/25 spots on the Overall leaderboard for both CTF Kills and TDM Kills.

About midday Friday I added up the total kills of the top 25 for each class:



CTF 25
Kills


Total
2,894,945


Rogue
1,310,911


Sorcerer
792,144


Warrior
791,890





TDM 25
Kills


Total
1,813,042


Rogue
875,816


Sorcerer
514,204


Warrior
423,022



Please explain to me how this is class balance?

Lol. That's kind of a trick question. I would like to explain to you what I think class balance should be, but that will be in my next post tomorrow about this subject.

All this shows is that more people use rogues to dummy farm. Everyone knows the pvp leaderboards are 80% dummy farmers. Rogues can move faster to their dummies by using shadow pierce, so this makes total sense. This has nothing to do with real pvp.

[phillyr]

Why is rogue 10% damage nerfed in pvp? Why is warrior heal weakened in pvp?

Because they'd be fricken OP; just like some mage skills.

The nerfs apply to all classes, therefore that argument is invalid.
The 10% nerf they gain back from the first AS?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[phillyr]

I'm really starting to get irritated because mods actually follow through with this if a lot are complaining if rogues get nerfed even more it won't be fun mages are fine... They are the most depended on classes In the game for gw's and every class was made different for a reason u can't expect every class to be even you gotta find ways to separate yourself from the rest by complaining about rogue damage youre just like every other mage. If i were a mage id i want to figure out a way to be unstoppable rather complain to the devs and make if easier also a mage is normally known for low armor and HP high mana etc in all games also you end gamers gotta start thinking about the lower levels because we're suffering here from the damage Nerf constant endless fights. :'(
I for one dont want to see any nerfs of any class, I WOULD however like our armor values compensate for the insane dmg we are doing at top endgame gear

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[Quickrr]

If 90% of mages attack skills are nerffed to be useless...why arent the other 2 classes artack skills nerffed? We dont root freeze or hardly stun...why should aimed shot take armor add crit and add dmg everytime they fire it? Why should rogue and war skills work as intended when ours are basically worthless?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆
You still don't get it mages aren't made to be over powered and have damage if you want that create a rogue if u want to tank everyone create a warrior every class has a purpose stop trying to make every class the same that's not how the devs wanted it, and if u have a problem with it you'll live because you're playing their game they don't have to change every spec of the game just for something so small such as damage.x

[phillyr]

You still don't get it mages aren't made to be over powered and have damage if you want that create a rogue if u want to tank everyone create a warrior every class has a purpose stop trying to make every class the same that's not how the devs wanted it, and if u have a problem with it you'll live because you're playing their game they don't have to change every spec of the game just for something so small such as damage.x
If you actually read the post....I was talking about the usefulness of our skills [emoji6] not dmg

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[Caabatric]

the entire mage > rogue thing needs to stop.
Why? Because rogues have higher stats in everything except mana (which a good rogue shouldn't have trouble with when fighting 1v1.)
Sure we have a shield but really rogue can destroy shields in what 3-4 aim shots (or was it less) and the mage will have about 40% life left. No shield = game over

[Hartholzwurm]

Balanced classes???

Neither in PVP nor in PVE.....look at ALL leaderboardtables......TDM, CTF, Timeruns, Arena and so on.....u always need at least 2 rogues.

Why can we jump on LB with 2 tanks or 2 mages in a Party and only ONE rogue??????

AND THIS IS BALANCED???????

Dream on :chuncky:

[Zeus]

The 10% nerf they gain back from the first AS?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer ��

It doesn't work that way, phillyr.

[Hail]

Why is rogue 10% damage nerfed in pvp? Why is warrior heal weakened in pvp?

Because they'd be fricken OP; just like some mage skills.

The nerfs apply to all classes, therefore that argument is invalid.

You forgot the fact rogues dont get %dmg from pets :'(

[Bless]

It doesn't work that way, phillyr.
Doesn't all damage % buffs (i.e. veil, and aimed shot damage addition) get affected by the nerf?

[Zeus]

Doesn't all damage % buffs (i.e. veil, and aimed shot damage addition) get affected by the nerf?

Aimed Shot damage addition does not because it applies to your target & not to yourself - everything else does.

[phillyr]

Yea, so the biggest damaging skill adds the missing 10% on the single target along with armor reduction and added crit which is all factored in before the damage to the target is factored in correct?

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[MoloToha]

Rogue shouldn't receive any damage nerf in PvP, they just need to have their enormous crit multipliers fixed. Damage nerfing is bad, it's just a quick fix that is applied until better solution is found (like fixing crit mjultipliers). Ideally, if crit multipliers are fixed, rogue's aimed and pierce crit should be even lower than lightning crit (which crit multiplier is correct).

[Zeus]

Yea, so the biggest damaging skill adds the missing 10% on the single target along with armor reduction and added crit which is all factored in before the damage to the target is factored in correct?

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer ��

No, it does not. If the 10% nerf + the pet damage nerf did not exist, the aimed would hit much higher. So, it does not add the missing 10% damage. If we weren't nerfed, we'd hit even harder.

[Zeus]

Rogue shouldn't receive any damage nerf in PvP, they just need to have their enormous crit multipliers fixed. Damage nerfing is bad, it's just a quick fix that is applied until better solution is found (like fixing crit mjultipliers). Ideally, if crit multipliers are fixed, rogue's aimed and pierce crit should be even lower than lightning crit (which crit multiplier is correct).

Err...what? So sorcerers would have stun, aimed shot (essentially), and AOE/DoT? The critical multiplier is working correctly. The entire reason why Aimed Shot hits so hard is because of the 10% damage upgrade + 15% armor reducing upgrade. Try using Aimed Shot without the 10% damage upgrade and you should notice that the aimed shot hits around the same as a lightning critical hit.

The thing is, first the 10% damage upgrade is calculated because logically, it did hit first. After that, the 250x multiplier is applied which is why Aimed Shot always hits harder on the second shot. If the 250x multiplier is the only one in effect, then the first hit is not nearly as bad as the rest.

The only thing wrong with Aimed Shot is:

- Armor reduction is applied before the damage calculation on the intial hit making Aimed Shot stronger than it should be for the initial hit and initial hit only. However, the second hit is normal and intended.

[phillyr]

No, it does not. If the 10% nerf + the pet damage nerf did not exist, the aimed would hit much higher. So, it does not add the missing 10% damage. If we weren't nerfed, we'd hit even harder.
Didnt u say what I just said in your last post? U just explained why...but thats exactly what I was saying.

The problem I see isnt dmg that rogues have, its the dmg that aimed shot does. And to be fair if all mages attack skills are nerffed (stun immunity=fb nerf, no skill roots, ice doesnt freeze) why isnt aimed shot nerffed? Those skills mages have would make them near immortal in pvp, AS is making rogues near godly killing machines. Thats the only skill destroying all 3 classes. And with the shortest cooldown of any class on top of that.

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[Zeus]

No, what you are saying is that the damage boost from aimed shot renders the nerf on rogues useless.

It does not. In fact, the current buff systems in place reduce damage by 1000-2000damage depending on pet choice.

So, if they granted back the damage nerfs and pet percent buffs - rogues would be doing 1-2k more damage.

Aimed Shot is supposed to do a lot of damage, just like lightning. The only thing that's different is that sorcerer's crit less and lightning does not have the armor reduction or damage boost upgrade. However, that does not stop lightning from cutting 2.8-3k.

Our overall damage is nerfed & that should be enough.

Stun immunity mechanics are not working as they should be which is why you do not see a sorcerer stunning other than the initial hit.

The solution is not nerfing rogues because then we are back at stage 1, where rogues were an entirely useless class. The solution is to pick out the flaws of each class and fix them.

Playing the blame game does not fix the obvious flaws in game mechanics. It does not fix the flaws in class mechanics either.

Stun immunity should be reduced. Stun immunity rules need a revision because right now, every skill or auto attack will reset immunity timer.

Sorcerer's need a way to avoid stuns by incorporating stun immunity in the shield & perhaps grant the shield a percent armor boost (20-30%).


Of course, there's also the other issue of user flaws in utilizing a class & the gear difference.

[Killfreeak]

We all know 99% of the time it isnt clash, so truely, class balance should be that all classes are capable of handling themselves even without a team to support them. I do think mages need some sort of stun immunity, however an equally geared mage can usually beat a mage. Mage does take a little more skill and timing in order to beat a rogue though. Rogues just start with stun, drop packs, aimed, packs, combo. Gg. But if you are equally geared to the rogue and they arent using razor usually they are easy enough :)

[phillyr]

No, what you are saying is that the damage boost from aimed shot renders the nerf on rogues useless.

It does not. In fact, the current buff systems in place reduce damage by 1000-2000damage depending on pet choice.

So, if they granted back the damage nerfs and pet percent buffs - rogues would be doing 1-2k more damage.

Aimed Shot is supposed to do a lot of damage, just like lightning. The only thing that's different is that sorcerer's crit less and lightning does not have the armor reduction or damage boost upgrade. However, that does not stop lightning from cutting 2.8-3k.

Our overall damage is nerfed & that should be enough.

Stun immunity mechanics are not working as they should be which is why you do not see a sorcerer stunning other than the initial hit.

The solution is not nerfing rogues because then we are back at stage 1, where rogues were an entirely useless class. The solution is to pick out the flaws of each class and fix them.

Playing the blame game does not fix the obvious flaws in game mechanics. It does not fix the flaws in class mechanics either.

Stun immunity should be reduced. Stun immunity rules need a revision because right now, every skill or auto attack will reset immunity timer.

Sorcerer's need a way to avoid stuns by incorporating stun immunity in the shield & perhaps grant the shield a percent armor boost (20-30%).


Of course, there's also the other issue of user flaws in utilizing a class & the gear difference.
I dunno why u got in this back and forth with me. I never asked for a damage nerf on rogues or said mage cannot in anyway shape or form beat a rougue. Nor did I state the nerf hasnt helped tanks survive just a bit longer in pvp.

U lost 10% in a pvp nerf correct? U gain 10% when u use aim shot correct? Ok. What I was saying earlier was the way mages are built makes us great at running pve. But also makes us op at pvp. Same with rogue. All the factors that make aimed shot a fantastic skill in pve also make your class seriously op in pvp. Ours were nerffed to take away all the unfair advantages of our class.

With the insane base damage of the classes with these new mythics( and for some the new ring) without having proper armor values to defend against them, that skill is an unfair advantage in pvp. Just as the mages skills would be if they werent nerffed.

just another upbeat positive comment from your friendly neighborhood forumer 😆

[Zeus]

Hello Phillyr,

To clarify:

- Rogues face a 10% loss of damage when entering PvP
- Rogues also face a loss of their damage buffs from pets when entering PvP

In total, this can amount to up to a 25% loss in damage. That is quite a substantial amount and actually really helps keep the balance.


Now, let us talk about class balance:

A rogue versus a warrior is pretty balanced. Either can beat the other. So, this shows to reason that there's nothing wrong with a rogue's aimed shot other than what I previously mentioned. Developers specifically incorporated aimed shot because prior to this, rogues were a useless class.

So, since a rogue versus a warrior is balanced, the only logical thing left to do is give sorcerers a buff in the ways that I suggested. It simply does not make sense to nerf a rogue's skills when balance already exists between two classes. I play all 3 classes so please trust me when I am trying to balance all three classes collectively.


Thank you for your thoughts and opinions,

Zeus

[Niixed]

All this shows is that more people use rogues to dummy farm. Everyone knows the pvp leaderboards are 80% dummy farmers. Rogues can move faster to their dummies by using shadow pierce, so this makes total sense. This has nothing to do with real pvp.

It has a lot to do with real pvp. I am very well aware of that many, if not most, of these kills are merely dummy farmed, but these are the only numbers we have to go on. "Everyone knows," but what can be proven? Not much. If STS based their decisions on these numbers then the dummy farmers would have ended up hurting all rogues who pvp.

I think STS should disable both PvP leaderboards until they have a way to weed out the farmers. I would suggest adding a kills/deaths frequency monitoring system. Then, reset the leaderboards (+ seasonally!!) and let the real pros shine through.

[Niixed]

Hello Phillyr,

To clarify:

- Rogues face a 10% loss of damage when entering PvP
- Rogues also face a loss of their damage buffs from pets when entering PvP

In total, this can amount to up to a 25% loss in damage. That is quite a substantial amount and actually really helps keep the balance.


Now, let us talk about class balance:

A rogue versus a warrior is pretty balanced. Either can beat the other. So, this shows to reason that there's nothing wrong with a rogue's aimed shot other than what I previously mentioned. Developers specifically incorporated aimed shot because prior to this, rogues were a useless class.

So, since a rogue versus a warrior is balanced, the only logical thing left to do is give sorcerers a buff in the ways that I suggested. It simply does not make sense to nerf a rogue's skills when balance already exists between two classes. I play all 3 classes so please trust me when I am trying to balance all three classes collectively.


Thank you for your thoughts and opinions,

Zeus

After careful consideration my suggestion to correct the imbalance is to remodel Arcane Shield:

1) Lower cooldown to 25 sec
2) Replace Displacement Wave upgrade with projectile reflection that reflects 15% of incoming projectile damage. That would include aimed shot, storm, nox, bows, ice bolt, guns, thrown axe and anything similar.
3) Ensure shield mechanics are operating correctly
4) Review/tweak absorbable damage formula

This helps mages in both pve and pvp. PvE deaths are probably also too high for mages. Developers don't have to do anything special for pvp.

[Zeus]

The curse on shield is a nice play, I like it!

However, it favors a mage to do traditional damage reflect instead of what you suggested. A 2.5k critical hit is still roughly only 300 damage reflected which is a meager amount.

Perhaps...allow damage reflect on shield the way curse works but also include stun immunity, reduce cool down of shield & increased damage absorption amount of shield.

Note: I took out the increased armor of shield because it would negate the damage reflect.


Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk

[Niixed]

The curse on shield is a nice play, I like it!

However, it favors a mage to do traditional damage reflect instead of what you suggested. A 2.5k critical hit is still roughly only 300 damage reflected which is a meager amount.

Perhaps...allow damage reflect on shield the way curse works but also include stun immunity, reduce cool down of shield & increased damage absorption amount of shield.

Note: I took out the increased armor of shield because it would negate the damage reflect.


Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus using Tapatalk

I suppose it is a form of curse, but I grabbed the idea from the alpha wolf reflective shield. I did say reflect projectile damage only, but I think you're right because it is less messy to just reflect all. Devs could just copy/paste alpha wolf shield code onto mage shield with a few modifications.

At first I thought 25% reflect, but I try to think like a STS developer. Knowing the pattern of their previous decisions regarding damage, 25% seemed too high. 15% sounded more like something Sam's team might swallow, especially if you add mage curse on top of the shield reflection damage. A 2.5k crit hit would reflect 375 damage. 20% is 500. 25% is 625. It's hard to know what the best amount would be, but I'd be willing to push for 20%

Arcane Shield Buff Proposal:


Add 5 second stun immunity to Arcane Shield (+2.5 sec stun immunity with Extended Shield upgrade)
Increase total damage absorbable by 10%
Reduce cooldown from 30 to 25 sec
Replace Displacement Wave with Reflective Shield (on charged)

Reflects 20% Of Incoming Damage


Thoughts?