Let's Talk About Class Balance!

[Remiem]

I've been seeing a lot of talk lately about class balance in Arcane Legends. Mostly about our favorite little blue dudes, the Sorcerers, but I'd love to gauge everyone's response to class balance in general so that I have clear suggestions to send back to the devs.

So! Let's discuss.

Please comment below with your feedback and suggestions on how we might improve class balance. And, let's keep in mind that BALANCE is the key word here. I know that everyone wants to be able to just own everyone in PvP, but that's not what balance is about. Each class should have their own strengths and weaknesses, and not feel either over or under powered.

Also, I know this is a hot topic and people can get fired up over something they are so passionate about. Please keep this discussion friendly, constructive and straight forward. This isn't the place to bash the game, other players or STS. This is the place for discussion about how we can make the game more fun for everyone.

Ready, set go!

[Niixed]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.


How do we measure PvP class balance?
What is the ideal PvP class balance?
What is the current PvP class balance?
If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%




Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
Equivalent exchange occurs:

Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
Sorcerers stay average
Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills


No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
A better than average KDR actually means something!
Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.


Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:



PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills



Total
Percent


All
2,979,151
100.00%


Rogue
1,397,172
46.90%


Sorcerer
783,541
26.30%


Warrior
798,438
26.80%





PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills



Total
Percent


All
1,843,232
100.00%


Rogue
898,673
48.76%


Sorcerer
519,434
28.18%


Warrior
425,125
23.06%





PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills



Total
Percent


All
4,822,383
100.00%


Rogue
2,295,845
47.61%


Sorcerer
1,302,975
27.02%


Warrior
1,223,563
25.37%



The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:



Current Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent*




100.00%

100.00%


Rogue
Highest
47.61%
Higher
37.00%


Sorcerer
Lower
27.02%
Highest
40.00%


Warrior
Lowest
25.37%
Lowest
23.00%


*guestimate

And again:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%



The Kicker



Class Imbalance



Kills
%Error
Deaths
%Error


Rogue
inflated
9.27%
deflated
1.33%


Sorcerer
deflated
6.31%
inflated
6.67%


Warrior
deflated
2.96%
deflated
5.33%


Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:


Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

[raw]

Okay so class balance...

I think there are 2/3 issues that are really adding to this, but aren't necessary class specific.

1- Damage. If we look at how damage has progressed compared to armor and health, it becomes obvious that it's not the same. Just as an example:

L26 Rogue:
Armor - 900
Health - 2700
Damage - 300

L41 Rogie:
Armor - 1400
Health - 3500
Damage - 600

Double the damage should mean that armor, and health double...
Hopefully with the introduction of new amulets this will help bridge the gap between armor/health and damage.

2- Skills. For the past few months we've been expecting an update to the skill system, but that still hasn't come. I'm not here to put STG down, but rather to point out and suggest some improvements. My first room for improvement would be to add a 5th skill slot. Here are the implications of that with respect to each class:

Warriors with a 5th slot would be sort of OP because they'd be able to use 2 attacks, vb, jugg, and heal, however this is necessary in a situation such as pvp for the warrior to survive (jugg), and provide mana to his team (vb).
Mages with a 5th slot would be more adaptable. Currently mages specs vary tremendously depending on the situation (clash, rogue 1v1, tank 1v1, etc), requiring mages to have to spec 6 skills, and swap between them constantly.
Rogues with a 5th slot would be able to spec razor, sss, traps, veil or whatever they choose.

As far as a 5th slot goes, rogues would benefit the least, but overall i think it would make pvp better IF the damage to health/armor ratio is improved. Else, this 5th slot would make the damage problem worse.

3- Skill CD. As we all know there are many skills that have nearly no CD (ie. lightening, aimed shot). In an effort to balance this damage rogues and mages need to have more cooldowns on skills.

Rogues - Aimed shot is the highest damage skill in the entire game and the cooldown is what 3 seconds? A rogue should have to choose wisely when he/she wants to use this OP skill-- making it sort of a rogue's "special attack."
Mages - I'm not 100% about this but if I'm not mistaken mage attacks (fire, ice, light) have nearly no CD and can be fired almost simultaneously. This needs to be fixed IMO
Warriors - I think your skills are quite balanced in terms of CD.

(I will add more on class balance later. Feel free to comment)!

[Arcane Maniac]

I think rogues are underpowered in ctf since warriors can stun lock,elondrian gun mages easily kill us with stunning pet,so I think u should increase rogue dodge chance in ctf,and get their dmg back to normal,thanks!

[Dex Scene]

Rogues and warriors are just fine. Buff mage's armor though.

Warriors can chase/race with SKYWARD SMASH
Rogues can do it with PIERCE.
Both are good skills to use.
Mages have Gale force to do that which is basically no dmg dealer in PVP and hense occupied a useless skill slot.

Curse should be buffed.

I play both warrior and rogue twinks. Its been ages I stopped playing mages in pvp to actually dominate an arena!

Nb: rogue's medic is too op

[Im back dudes]

you want balance?
take away that stupid bulwark curse. there was no tension of adding it there anyways. its a pve weopon for a reason now its a pvp god weopon.
and add armor to mages.
idc what a warrior or rogue say. play a mage and you'll feel the pain.

[Sir Lubo Penev]

Rogues - Aimed shot is the highest damage skill in the entire game and the cooldown is what 3 seconds? A rogue should have to choose wisely when he/she wants to use this OP skill-- making it sort of a rogue's "special attack."

Increase aimed shoot cooldown and congratulations - you've created a brand new junk class for both pvp AND pve.

Overall, I think balance will be just fine, if and when new armor/rings are implemented. Right now I am more concerned with the ridiculous disbalance (and therefore frustration and lack of fun) certain gear and pets create, than I am with skills, cooldowns and stuff like that.

Regards.

[Zeus]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

[FluffNStuff]

How to balance the classes in 1v1 PvP with the current code: Not well.
Why?
The current classes are built with different focuses then each other, for example, Rogue/Sorc:
Rogue is designed for 1v1 damage. Sorc is designed for 1vMany damage. In the current code, improving a Sorc enough to give it the power of a Rogue in 1v1 would make it insanely OP 1vMany in PvE.
How can this be balanced?
Currently, it appears the code can only adjust a few variables when a player enters the PvP arena, specifically Armor/Damage/Health.
What is needed is for the code to be able to adjust ... well ... everything. An example could be the Sorc Fireball. Sorc enters PvP the damage on the fireball goes UP, but, the AOE radius drops to zero. That is just an example, there are many others that could be discussed, but that is step two. Step one is the ability for the game to dynamically change the behavior/damage on skills in a PvP environment.

[Instanthumor]

For mage:

Lifegiver should heal set percentage of hp/mana. It heals ~70% on mages, and ~15% on warriors and I lol
Shield - take out pushback upgrade. Not even newbs use that. Insert something in for example reflect dmg
Give mages +25-30% str bonus in pvp, increase armor value on gear such as mythic set, druids, magma, etc.
Buff mage's shield. It is not right for a rogue to use ONE combo and automatically break shield. Make it absorb more dmg or last the whole 15 seconds it's supposed to.

[aarrgggggg]

You wanna balance pvp

Lower the shield cooldown for mages so the cooldown is shorter and remove the knockback upgrade on shield.....
replace knockback upgrade with either an armor boost, a stun immunity or a reflecting damage upgrade instead, maybe a combination of those.

Also buff mages heal skill because it is currently too weak. making adjustments to these two skills, shield and heal should balance
the little blue smurfs much better.


Also a nerf to slag and samael is needed.....those pets terrify should not stack and should grant some kind of immunity similar to stun immunity, currently they dont so its possible to be completely stunlocked indefinitely.

You cannot even twink anymore without running into loads of samaels to indefinitely stun you.

The gap between legendary and myth/ arcane users is too big especially when it comes to pets, making pvp at all levels not just end game enjoyable for only the most wealthy individuals.

make a 1v1 room

Would it be possible to make a pvp filter so that arcane users enter pvp rooms with other arcane users and legendary users enter rooms with other legendary users....... this will balance pvp out for sure.

mages....more than any other class need a fifth skill slot

will add more later

[Stoba]

I would suggest decreasing shield cd.

[Bless]

Right now its

Damage > Armor and hp

It should be -

HP & ARMOR >= DAMAGE whilst still maintaining adaquately high damage of critical hits.

For all classes. Yall need to buff our gear/new gear. Or the stats somehow.

[Idly]

Mages,
Pvp only +20%-30% health buff
Reduced shield cd
Stun immunity
Buff either curse or make light crits stack

Tank,
Only the bulwark is an issue imo. Let them keep the curse so its still a viable pvp weapon but reduce the proc rate drastically to maybe 15%

Rogue,

No comments

5th skill slot would be awesome for all classes, maybe make it a player choice to have 5 skills OR 4 skills and normal attack so a five skill pvp'er would lose his/her weapons procurement.

[aquascaper]

Thanks!

[will0]

Mage shield with lower CD increase invulnerability duration as many mages have suggested this also increase damage absorption so it wont break so easily with rogues high damage one-shot / mage shield knockback should be remove and give reflect damage as per instanthumor suggestion above.

Charge heals gives castor 100% heal and maybe 50% to allies, heals should also come in some sort of armor boost or protection to caster or allies like warrior's horn.

un-nerf ice root in PVP, warrior can pull mage with a skill and they jugg we are dead. Rouges shoot mage 1 hit combo in a distance range we are dead. Why our ice skill can't root in pvp ? Please increase the DOT damage on ice too.

lightning skill - please change the critical % and AOE % (AOE doesnt work on normal map since most mobs have big health point ie, shuyal / tindrin maps) so lightning AOE is useless skill for PVE.

Give Elon Gun charge skill 100% root with longer duration with poison or bleed, Bulwark get 100% curse on charge (why the discrepancy?)

Kershal - overall is not a good weapon anyway just user a nice stats too many flaws doesn't stun and slow dont work. Charge damage does nothing.

[Kakashis]

Warriors need to deal way more damage when they crit. Right now, they're sitting ducks and can't damage faster than a rogue can drop packs to heal. In essence rogues are still the deadliest class

[Instanthumor]

How to balance the classes in 1v1 PvP with the current code: Not well.
Why?
The current classes are built with different focuses then each other, for example, Rogue/Sorc:
Rogue is designed for 1v1 damage. Sorc is designed for 1vMany damage. In the current code, improving a Sorc enough to give it the power of a Rogue in 1v1 would make it insanely OP 1vMany in PvE.
How can this be balanced?
Currently, it appears the code can only adjust a few variables when a player enters the PvP arena, specifically Armor/Damage/Health.
What is needed is for the code to be able to adjust ... well ... everything. An example could be the Sorc Fireball. Sorc enters PvP the damage on the fireball goes UP, but, the AOE radius drops to zero. That is just an example, there are many others that could be discussed, but that is step two. Step one is the ability for the game to dynamically change the behavior/damage on skills in a PvP environment.

I disagree, I think all classes should be somewhat balanced in terms of 1v1.

Bulwark's Curse should be replaced with something OTHER than a mage's skill.

[inkredible]

also. fix rogue buff in tdm .

[inkredible]

Okay so class balance...

I think there are 2/3 issues that are really adding to this, but aren't necessary class specific.

1- Damage. If we look at how damage has progressed compared to armor and health, it becomes obvious that it's not the same. Just as an example:

L26 Rogue:
Armor - 900
Health - 2700
Damage - 300

L41 Rogie:
Armor - 1400
Health - 3500
Damage - 600

Double the damage should mean that armor, and health double...
Hopefully with the introduction of new amulets this will help bridge the gap between armor/health and damage.



no because damage get multiplied.. so i wouldnt look at it that way.. if u double the damage then it will be too much for all classes to handle

[uunknownn]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.
Best idea please sts take a look at this.classes are not meant to be balance at 1vs1 but i do agree mages need buff and here it is as what zeus said and sts pls fix our dmg nerf in dmg % pets we spent lots of golds for arcane pets like hj,sam etc.just be useless their dmg % boost??;(

[FluffNStuff]

I disagree, I think all classes should be somewhat balanced in terms of 1v1.

Bulwark's Curse should be replaced with something OTHER than a mage's skill.

Curse (Damage Reflect) is a Paladin skill. A Paladin is a warrior that can also cast self buff spells. Not exactly sure how it ended up on Sorcs in the first place.

[Spellcheck]

Warriors need to deal way more damage when they crit. Right now, they're sitting ducks and can't damage faster than a rogue can drop packs to heal. In essence rogues are still the deadliest class

With this, the Warriors can now 1 hit Mages and 1 combo rogues xD.

[Spellcheck]

Also take twink Mages in consideration, they are getting destroyed in lvl 1-30 pvp.

Need a better heal, Reflect damage on shield instead of the useless push back skill.

Shield reduced cd by 6 seconds

Curse increased cd by 3 seconds

Aimed shot cd increased by 6 seconds

Give Mages 10% damage and armor boost in pvp

Increase fireball cd by 2 seconds

Buff armor on Mages and Warriors

Love, a Smurf

[Excuses]

Mage
Personally think armor is the problem of this class.
- Increased heal and new upgrade in stead of +10 mana/Hp heal upgrade. It's too small amount comparing the level now. Maybe be 5% for 6-8 sec would be better.
- Higher damage absorbtion in shield and new upgrade in stead of pushing in shield like stun immune.
- Higher damage on main target, which means, for example, not dealing all 5 targets 300 dmg each, but one target gets 400 and other 4 get 250. This might help 1vs1 of this class.
- Higher crit dmg on thunder would help too. Somehow as and thunder has same 250% crit but so much different output.

Warrior
If you don't want to give Hp, give dmg. Or more armor and Hp. Not lower both.
- Even the origin of curse is from warrior, since our mage already have this skill, this class shouldn't have curse Imo. This will kill a class. If bulwark has to have curse, lower it's proc rate. It curses more than mage class atm. Its rate should be as low as maul proc.
- skills are OK, but if you want this class to be a tank, you should give enough armor and hp to survive from one rogue's attack, not getting 2 shots by them. Maybe it requires better gears(armor and helm) or stats(1str for 1.1 maybe.)

Rogue
- skills and stat are good atm. Just need to be fixed all glitches.


And ctf should have pet dmg for all class, tdm should have class balance too. Keeping rogue's dmg high enough for pve and reduce it in pvp as ctf is. This would be fair way for both pve and pvp.
Adding some suggestions.

[Raselph]

I've been seeing a lot of talk lately about class balance in Arcane Legends. Mostly about our favorite little blue dudes, the Sorcerers, but I'd love to gauge everyone's response to class balance in general so that I have clear suggestions to send back to the devs.

So! Let's discuss.



Please comment below with your feedback and suggestions on how we might improve class balance. And, let's keep in mind that BALANCE is the key word here. I know that everyone wants to be able to just own everyone in PvP, but that's not what balance is about. Each class should have their own strengths and weaknesses, and not feel either over or under powered.

Also, I know this is a hot topic and people can get fired up over something they are so passionate about. Please keep this discussion friendly, constructive and straight forward. This isn't the place to bash the game, other players or STS. This is the place for discussion about how we can make the game more fun for everyone.

Ready, set go!

I'm 24x7 to pvP ,
Talking doesn't matter if u say it's done , u know that ur the only one who can do editing since ur the ADMIN .l.
If u were a "blue dude" u probably meant sorcs but if u get a sorc with my type of gears u can kill rogues on 1 vs 1 , but u won't survive on 4x4 , plus u can get any items u want , why is it that mages aren't supposed to get buffed ...


AGREED ON THE FACT THAT ALL CLASSES HAVE THEIR OWN WEAKNESSES AND STRENGTHS BUT WHY IS IT THAT SORCS ARE SO EASSSSYYYYYY TO BE KILLED IN PVP AND MASSIVE IN PVE???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Madnex]

-Make the Arcane Shield stay up until it's broken.
-Double the H/s after charged Lifegiver is casted.
-Increase HP returned from Juggernaut (500 -> 750).
-Increase Feeble duration from Chest Splitter and Axe Throw to three seconds(3).
-Include panic/terrify in the stun immunity.

[Killfreeak]

Mages are perfectly fine when they have a shield, tne problem is rogues break it so easily and without a shield, even a tank can one combo a mage.... A class shouldnt have to rely on a singe skill in order to be balanced in pvp... Either incresse the damage a mages shield can absorb, make it so it cant be broken, or tanken is poor class up...

I also think they require movement impairment invulnerability... They are the only class that doesn't have this. Shield knockback is quite useless so changing this ability to a movement impairment invulnerability would helpvbalance this class extremely. I know alot of people say this game is designed for 5v5 scenarios, but quite frankly, tanks with curse, SnS, arcane shield proc on razorbacks... All other classes are being given mage skills which is destroying the purpose of mages in PVP... Where is mage juggernaut? Lol
Paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper right? I thought class balance worked similarly? Tank beats mage, mage beats rogue, rogue beats tank. I mean its a good thing if each class is able to challenge their 'arch-enemy' class, but at the end of the day, a good tank cannot repeatively beat a rogue, but a rogue can do that to a mage. And nowadays, a maxed tank (that knows how to play) will not be beaten by mage. Its just impossible. Recurring theme is mage is under powered.
There is some good ideas people have put forward, but you can't nerf mages because rogues cry they cant beat a mage... Its supposed to be like that. So far all updates have only benefitted rogues and tanks, and i think mages deserve a buff, especially before the tournament because mages will play a crucial part.
My other concern is, rogues can break a just casted shield in one combo in TDM quite easily. This puts the mage in a state of pressure until the cd is finished, but a good rogue will kill the mage long before this cd ends. Shield being broken is stupid... Not only do mages have to wait even longer without a shield for their next CD, they are extremely vulnerable.

[Arpluvial]

Hey guys, I went ahead and I cleaned up the thread.

We want to hear your feedback, on class balance, but let's please remember to keep things constructive, friendly, and on track. Thank you! :)

[Killfreeak]

Warriors need to deal way more damage when they crit. Right now, they're sitting ducks and can't damage faster than a rogue can drop packs to heal. In essence rogues are still the deadliest class

Totally inaccurate, with a decent damage weapon (maul, glaive, claymore) and not bulwark, a tank is capable of critting 1k... The problem isnt how big they crit, but how often. A tank is capable of 20%+ crit depending on how they gear up... It may cost alot but tanks have vb skill which grants crit anyway. If a rogue has 4k hp (max) and i crit 1k on axe and 1k on skyward, i do 2k dmg... Not including damage done by primary and pet, ehich will probably reach almost 3k damage. Rogue>tank is the way it is supposed to be, if a tank can beat a rogue they are very skilled. As a tank i have managed to take a rogue down very quickly.

[Dex Scene]

Curse (Damage Reflect) is a Paladin skill. A Paladin is a warrior that can also cast self buff spells. Not exactly sure how it ended up on Sorcs in the first place.
In Arcane legends Curse is a mage skill. Warriors are head choopin mele king they don't go by cursing people, that's a sorcerer's job! Just my opinion.

[Arachnophobik]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.


How do we measure PvP class balance?
What is the ideal PvP class balance?
What is the current PvP class balance?
If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%




Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
Equivalent exchange occurs:

Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
Sorcerers stay average
Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills


No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
A better than average KDR actually means something!
Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.


Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:



PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills



Total
Percent


All
2,979,151
100.00%


Rogue
1,397,172
46.90%


Sorcerer
783,541
26.30%


Warrior
798,438
26.80%





PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills



Total
Percent


All
1,843,232
100.00%


Rogue
898,673
48.76%


Sorcerer
519,434
28.18%


Warrior
425,125
23.06%





PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills



Total
Percent


All
4,822,383
100.00%


Rogue
2,295,845
47.61%


Sorcerer
1,302,975
27.02%


Warrior
1,223,563
25.37%



The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:



Current Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent*




100.00%

100.00%


Rogue
Highest
47.61%
Higher
37.00%


Sorcerer
Lower
27.02%
Highest
40.00%


Warrior
Lowest
25.37%
Lowest
23.00%


*guestimate

And again:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%



The Kicker



Class Imbalance



Kills
%Error
Deaths
%Error


Rogue
inflated
9.27%
deflated
1.33%


Sorcerer
deflated
6.31%
inflated
6.67%


Warrior
deflated
2.96%
deflated
5.33%


Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:


Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.


this!

[siddhant]

end game pvp for me as mage just sucks against those op rogues getting killed one or two shot hopefully u do sumthing and improve ty....

[DMminion]

Right now its pretty close to perfect imo! Just a minor fix of shield cooldown or dmg absorbable would balance things out pretty good! I'll just say that I know a lvl.15 mage in the best legendary gear available vs a lvl.15 warrior in the best legendary gear available "both using dovabear" the match favors the warrior cuz their heal is better than mages (so, maybe a buff on mages heal would help as well). And for that same lvl.15 mage to vs a lvl.15 rogue if that mage doesnt use shield consider them dead "fast". Even w/ shield active the rogue has a pretty good shot at taking mage out cuz he/she can 2shot kill mages as long as they have packs to heal from mages most op skill "lightning". Since mage is easiest to kill maybe they should have strongest attack/critical Chance. Rogue balanced in middle and warrior strongest defense. Like I stated in the beginning it is pretty close to being balanced atm and I feel like if a couple if these suggestions were tested that would make things more fair and balanced. In higher lvls if u dont have mythics and arcanes you have "very low" chance at winning pvp. All classes should be able to 1vs and win (even if they dont have arcane). "Just this persons opinion". I look forward to hearing if these are good or bad ideas.

[Raregem]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.


How do we measure PvP class balance?
What is the ideal PvP class balance?
What is the current PvP class balance?
If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%




Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
Equivalent exchange occurs:

Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
Sorcerers stay average
Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills


No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
A better than average KDR actually means something!
Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.


Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:



PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills



Total
Percent


All
2,979,151
100.00%


Rogue
1,397,172
46.90%


Sorcerer
783,541
26.30%


Warrior
798,438
26.80%





PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills



Total
Percent


All
1,843,232
100.00%


Rogue
898,673
48.76%


Sorcerer
519,434
28.18%


Warrior
425,125
23.06%





PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills



Total
Percent


All
4,822,383
100.00%


Rogue
2,295,845
47.61%


Sorcerer
1,302,975
27.02%


Warrior
1,223,563
25.37%



The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:



Current Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent*




100.00%

100.00%


Rogue
Highest
47.61%
Higher
37.00%


Sorcerer
Lower
27.02%
Highest
40.00%


Warrior
Lowest
25.37%
Lowest
23.00%


*guestimate

And again:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%



The Kicker



Class Imbalance



Kills
%Error
Deaths
%Error


Rogue
inflated
9.27%
deflated
1.33%


Sorcerer
deflated
6.31%
inflated
6.67%


Warrior
deflated
2.96%
deflated
5.33%


Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:


Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

I think you did an awesome job here! I don't know how accurate the lb is for this though. With people dummy farming and getting thousands of kills this way the current lb is not a good judge of what each class can do IMO. Your ideal class balance chart is amazing though. Great work!

Your logic is sound, and even if the lbs weren't tampered with it would probably be a close match to your current numbers. It would just take the devs really diving in to figure it out.

[Instanthumor]

Curse (Damage Reflect) is a Paladin skill. A Paladin is a warrior that can also cast self buff spells. Not exactly sure how it ended up on Sorcs in the first place.

Hm. I don't know what game you play, but this is AL. Warriors shouldn't have that kind of power.

[Sundar Moorthi]

Mage shield with lower CD increase invulnerability duration as many mages have suggested this also increase damage absorption so it wont break so easily with rogues high damage one-shot / mage shield knockback should be remove and give reflect damage as per instanthumor suggestion above.

Charge heals gives castor 100% heal and maybe 50% to allies, heals should also come in some sort of armor boost or protection to caster or allies like warrior's horn.

un-nerf ice root in PVP, warrior can pull mage with a skill and they jugg we are dead. Rouges shoot mage 1 hit combo in a distance range we are dead. Why our ice skill can't root in pvp ? Please increase the DOT damage on ice too.

lightning skill - please change the critical % and AOE % (AOE doesnt work on normal map since most mobs have big health point ie, shuyal / tindrin maps) so lightning AOE is useless skill for PVE.

Give Elon Gun charge skill 100% root with longer duration with poison or bleed, Bulwark get 100% curse on charge (why the discrepancy?)

Kershal - overall is not a good weapon anyway just user a nice stats too many flaws doesn't stun and slow dont work. Charge damage does nothing.

damage reflect lik nordr wolf? lamo mage wil b more op :-) keep going i would like to read all class suggestions and ppls have different thoughts,ideas,etc i luv the game, i like the players but hate the sts :-) hahahaaha

[Dex Scene]

I like playing low level twink pvp is because of the damage and HEALTH ARMOR ratio.
Unlike endgame or higher level of twinks, lower twinks (below 17) is more fun to me as vs and clashes stays longer. One hit don't KO one good geared toon.
If my rogue is being hit my other rogues, i can get back heal and fight back and actually win which is very unlikely in endgame. If a rogue hits another rogue in endgame ( non arcane ring) he will die in 2nd combo before acting up.
Fights are meant to enjoy. ,2-4 secs fights are not enjoyable..

After buffing little blue mages, my suggestion would be buff the health and armor of all class so the damage hp armor ratio stands in a way which can't cause one-two hit KOs in higher level.

[baklolz]

Class Balance is needed because mages shudnt have to spend 20m on a weapon to beat a warrior wid a normal claymore and a rogue wid an expedition bow.. :disturbed:

Suggestions for mage class are:

*SHIELD (The only hope for mages)
- Replace the displacement wave wid an armor buff 25-30%
- Decrease the cooldown period
- Duration of the shield can be increased by 5 seconds instead of 2 seconds

(Out of the ones listed above 2 out of 3 Should be Implemented )

*Mythic gun (41) root chances can be implemented to 25% on normal attack and 40% on charged attack

*The expedition rifle lightning proc can be made to decrease hp of opponent by 20%
In the legendary category this is the only weapon for mages tht is widely used in PvP and this buff can help mages wid a low budget a great opportunity :)

*Heal skill can be made to have 50% chance of giving armor buff to the mage of 10%

:)
Implementing these suggestions WILL NOT make mages better than rogues and warriors in PvP but will give us blue smurfs a fighting chance

[Fiayalia]

I will just straight up say that mostly the mage class is not AS useful as it could be, without spending an obscene amount of gold....

[Bigboyblue]

Mages :

-add stun immunity to shield instead of knockback
-increase damage done to warriors(only warriors) by 15%(do people think this is a good amount?)

Rogues

-apply 20% damage reduction in TDM
-apply pet damage % increase in CTF

Warriors
-no changes needed


I don't think any other changes are required. We could tweak the skills of all classes but it just opens the door for more issues. As we have seen in the past adding anything to any item or skill can have serious implications(Bulwark anyone?). Mages shield could be something that if changed could help but would it upset the current balance between rogues and mages?

I saw Zeus recommend some changes, and I know he is a strong proponent of buffing mages which I am glad to see. I also see quite a bit of support for his comment but I can't agree to any survivability buff to warriors. His other recommendations are solid but mages will still have a hard time killing warriors, give them any buff(even minor) and it's impossible. Also without some sort of increase to our damage against warriors we are in the same boat. We don't want to create any situations where the mage and warrior fight doesn't end or it required one of the toons to be OOM for the other to win.

If there is a current unbalance between rogues and warriors maybe make jugg prevent the crit stacking effect of aimed? I thought this match up was currently fairly equal but I am not totally sure on this. If you give any sort of improvement to warriors or rogues that affects the match up vs mages then we are in the same boat we are currently.


There is also a bit of an issue with clashes. The team with the most warriors on it usually wins(given equal skill and gear). HoR is a life saver and with 2 or 3 warriors blasting this off you almost can't die(even as a mage). Maybe something similar to stun immunity needs to be added to the effect of HoR? A 4 second duration from the end of HoR until you can receive the buff again? Not sure how long it should be but this could help clashes.

[Higuani]

There is also a bit of an issue with clashes. The team with the most warriors on it usually wins(given equal skill and gear). HoR is a life saver and with 2 or 3 warriors blasting this off you almost can't die(even as a mage). Maybe something similar to stun immunity needs to be added to the effect of HoR? A 4 second duration from the end of HoR until you can receive the buff again? Not sure how long it should be but this could help clashes.

Not true! I beated a whole 5 warrior team with 4 rogues & 1 warrior.

1 warrior cant absorb all the dmg done by 4 rogues. 1 by 1 they fall to the ground. I'm playin 17 twink.

[freakoutt]

Ok so i have experienced mage using max gear (apart from pet) and can still say that mages absolutely suck! The extra 70 dmg i gain from arcane ring doesn't increase my dmg by that much at all?? One thing i noticed is that apparently. lightning does 1300-1600 dmg or something but i dont do that to any class apart from mage? And also on crit (250%) would mean i hit 3.2k to 4k crit but i cant even hit that on anyone apart from mage?

Heres my theory: dmg on skills is based on your armor compared to oppositions armor. This makes sense but im pretty sure it shouldnt be lie that? This alone would fix alot of problems.

Another issue is mages shield dropping almost as soon as invulnerability wears off... making mages squishy 97.5% of the time. i would sugget reassessing the upgrades etc.

Final problem is some of the actual skills that are useless BASED ON STS NERFS!! Ice no longer roots, fire no longer stuns often, and other skills like lightning with its useless AoE that happens once every 20000 times.. Mages need to be completely restructured from the base. This includes our actual dmg output, skill upgrades, nerfs, buffs etc. I dare you guys to come pvp anonymously and see how hard it is being everyone's target "just because". And I'm a lucky mage too.. i have friends that come and assist me in 5v5 while i watch as me and the other mages in the rooms are 100% stunlocked and are live bait for a rogue. ah well i doubt sts will actually buff mages. Hey STS next debuff suggestion for mages... oh wait you've already debuffed them to absolutely nothing...

[Khicho]

There has been a lot of great feedback! I a very simple change that pretty much balance all classes. Add a 5th skill.

[Niixed]

I think you did an awesome job here! I don't know how accurate the lb is for this though. With people dummy farming and getting thousands of kills this way the current lb is not a good judge of what each class can do IMO. Your ideal class balance chart is amazing though. Great work!

Your logic is sound, and even if the lbs weren't tampered with it would probably be a close match to your current numbers. It would just take the devs really diving in to figure it out.

You're exactly right that the lb numbers are not necessarily a great representation of what each class can do. But, what each class is doing says a lot as well. I think this is a winner-take-all situation. Rogues became dominant because players learned over time that for Rogues the kills were quicker/easier and the deaths were manageable. They learned mages were ok on kills but we're awful for deaths and warriors were decent on both. There are noticeably fewer mages in PvP because it's a miserable experience. Mage numbers are probably depressed because it sucks to play a mage. Many skilled pros don't bother spending the time/effort when there are better options.

[conradev]

I only skimmed through page 1 but I agree with some of what Zeus said and some of what Instanthumor said.

Quick fix answers: Remove the Bulwark curse, Remove Razor Shield Stun immunity. Both are absolutey BLUNDEROUS decisions.

Like I've been wailing on and on about...everytime a change is made it seems like the tables turn on a class and sometimes topple over. It's up to us players to re-evolve our game based on game changes...and I tell you, it gets harder every time. We were at most balance before you added cooldowns to skills, why? Because mage could utilitze his shield then switch it to heal, thus being able to fight 3 damage skills with a tank and be able to heal himself so he didn't die in literally 2 seconds on a bs stun combo with damage coming from the tank at ROGUE levels.

When there was no skill cooldowns before you could switch, clashes didnt revolve around mages running from spawn back to clash center dying immediately and repeating. Now either remove all updates since end of season 5 or....


Summarized Answer: LEAVE S***ALONE!!!

[Zeus]

Razor Shield stun immunity is a given skill since S1. I would recommend that instead of wasting your stun immunity, gather distance between the Razor & save your fireball for the second the Razor shield ends.

Other sorcerers have used that and for me, it is quite effective.

[conradev]

Like seriously...when I saw you say that you wete going to see about getting some of the current glitches and buffs addressed before the tournament I knew it was going to be like, LMAO bad. Please stop updating so frequently, stop making changes to the game mechanics based on what ppl say on the forum..THEREIN is the real problem---listening TOO much to players. A very nice business but it's a rabbit hole it appears likr for this game.

[conradev]

Zeus, I have already been doing that with a measure of success. And I have to believe that not even you think that adding that extra time to your stun immunity is at all fair in PVP...which is what this discussion is about, not PVE.

[octavos]

Alrighty ill post, might not be as straight forward..but it will say my point of view. After all its your game..so ill just go with the flow.

1. Mages die to much, and need something to counter that..in Elite and arena..and the new arena...and unlike PL..where mages have revives..mages in AL...are a bitter sweet class.

2. rouges are the class for pvp and elite, they can 1 hit kill and deal nice dmg in elite... and thats all pvp/elite is about now a days. When do you see a mage or a tank "warrior" doing a 1 shot kill in pvp?!?! or able to solo elite?!?! you wont..but if you do, give that person brownie points if they can do it on warrior or mage..because of how much time it takes.

3. warriors are supposed to be an agro machine..but since there health is high and dmg is low...why do you want to spend so much on pots for elite..since there dmg is compared to a mosquito bite...thats why many want to see a male rouge, because high dmg..and same amount of pots. Mages cant even compare to the dmg the rouges can do..even for normal taradin levels. Mages might be a AOE class but against important stuff like bosses in arena or elite, but wait they die to much....so tell me how thats a advantage..because I dont see it.

4. make an in-game study to find out..which class is preferred...whats the best for arena, whats the best timed runs, whats the best for boss runs in elite, I can guarantee you "rouges" will be the best suited..so if you want to balance?!?! make classes closer to rouge...just change out there skin..and boom..you have an even balance. But on a serious note..why is it that PL DL and SL are all balanced? and AL always is the unbalanced game....in all my time I have never seen so many balance changes to a game. even forums you won't see arguments of classes because many have been resolved.

[conradev]

Moving on...who here believes that reducing the cd time of shield and fireball incrementally would provide a moderate amount of balance for mages as well as what other alluded to, adding stun immunity to Arcane Shield and an armor buff?

Can we get the top 3 or 4 ideas and make a poll thread please?...this discussion is getting lengthy and further away from a clear resolution. We need a consensus thread with options.

[lethaljade]

MAGES SUCK. They are too squishy, its kinder boring that without a shield we just splat and die , vsing rouges is faily matched if you know what your doing, but this is on a fair 1v1 term, mages need more armour, we r a class that depends on one skill ..... shield , which is boring give us the same armour as rouges, so we have survivability otherwise gg mages , especially with this new bulwark, it was very difficult to kill a tank before now its just impossible, 700more armour plox. How fun would it be to vs a tank and actually have a fair chance at winning.

Its simple really those little blue smurfs need some sort of buff , preferably armour, and a shorter cool down on shield, we r way to squishy.

[conradev]

MAGES SUCK. They are too squishy, its kinder boring that without a shield we just splat and die , vsing rouges is faily matched if you know what your doing, but this is on a fair 1v1 term, mages need more armour, we r a class that depends on one skill ..... shield , which is boring give us the same armour as rouges, so we have survivability otherwise gg mages , especially with this new bulwark, it was very difficult to kill a tank before now its just impossible, 700more armour plox. How fun would it be to vs a tank and actually have a fair chance at winning.
Mages don't suck and I don't even like having a "fair" vs...I like playing David (id est David/Goliath) but in a world where new buffs arr granted and weapons are forged based entirely off of forum complaints like the Bulwark giving curse, the Elondrian rifle giving armor on fire, it seems futile to even keep up anymore. Nerf the gun and renerf the Bulwark.

[lethaljade]

Mages don't suck and I don't even like having a "fair" vs...I like playing David (id est David/Goliath) but in a world where new buffs arr granted and weapons are forged based entirely off of forum complaints like the Bulwark giving curse, the Elondrian rifle giving armor on fire, it seems futile to even keep up anymore. Nerf the gun and renerf the Bulwark.
I get what your saying con, but most people would like an equal chance at killing a tank which we have never had yes people like me u and id say 15 others enjoyed the challenge of vsing a tank b4 this bulwark, but it has never been fair, its always been a challenge on the mages part, which it shouldnt be , if were talking about class balance, weve never had any, we was at out closest before bulwark, but it still wasn't balanced, killing a tank shouldnt be something only "pro mages" can do id like to see it possible for every mage out there. And by that I mean it should be just as hard for the tank.

[Imthebeast]

To be completely honest i think stun and panic should happen less often and rogues shouldnt have razor. I use razor on my geared rogue and slaughter mages lol

[Thrindal]

This is a tough one because it's more than class it's gear too. My mythic rogue with legendary bows worst pvp nightmare are mages. That shield is near impenetrable for me. I'd rather see another Rogue or a warrior any day.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that class isn't the only part of the discussion.

[Imthebeast]

This is a tough one because it's more than class it's gear too. My mythic rogue with legendary bows worst pvp nightmare are mages. That shield is near impenetrable for me. I'd rather see another Rogue or a warrior any day.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that class isn't the only part of the discussion.
Well if ur using an expe bow the mage would equally use an expe gun. I personally on my rogue can kill any expe gun mage with expe bow and razor active.

[Higuani]

Mages Shield

- Reduce CD time shield
- When we have our shield up. I like my shield to protect me and not get destroyed after x amount of dmg.
- Grant stun immunity

Mages Heal

- Add an sort of HEAL barrier for x amount of seconds on us. Like HOR but then only for mages and not entire team. BUT make it penetrated only by crits.

My 2 cents.

[chorba69]

People were suggesting a lot past seasons, and nothing has really changed.
99% of the people on forums say mages are just underpowered and so were they always in PvP and nothing was done about that. They have almost no chances to kill an equally geared warrior, and cant survive more than 3secs without a shield vs a rogue.
STS, c'mon do something already. People are complaining and only thing you guys do is, sadly, nothing. Or even better, you continue to buff the already op warriors.
Idk do you guys play warriors only or you like the class or what? Spend a day with a mage in pvp and you will what I and community is talking about.
Cheers

[LibertyBells (Jasper)]

Everyone's basically said what needed to be said:

Sorcerer - Sorcerer's main problem in the battle field comes from dying to easily if not prepared from any class. This doesn't apply with other sorcerers. My question is, why has our armor been reduced so low? Why can't we have the same armor as rouges? Or a little bit under. And the skill in Lifegiver, giving it the ability to receive low amounts of hp every second. I believe boosting this up would make our heal move a little bit better. The only skill i believe needs a look over would be Arcane Shield and Curse. Sorcerers shield last for .27 seconds against an ever relentless crit rouge. In my eyes, if our skills had a pvp/pve aspect written into each and every skill in the game, possibly with a little difference here and there, would solve a lot of problem.

*Example - Ice - Pve: Jagged Ice - Enemies that are either slowed or stunned by Frost Bolt also receive low amounts of additional damage over time, for the duration of the effect. Pvp: Enemies who receive damage over time also have a chance to decrease critical chance by 5%. Stackable up to 3 times.

Rouges - The idea of rouges having more crit and dodge was a good idea, but makes them a terminator in pvp. The only way i can kill them is if they aren't using healing packs or my slag gets one of its 1 out of 100 panics. *Everyone says slags panic is awesome but i rarely get it. What am i missing here? No rouge player wants to see rouges get nerfed for the simple fact that they wont be able to 1 combo anyone. Having a longer cool-down for Aimed shot wouldn't make the class boring to use, it would make it a challenge. Rouges can tap skill buttons with their toes and still be able to kill. I find that to be a problem.

Warriors - I've noticed that warriors are starting to hit me for crazy numbers. I don't know if its the Bulwark's curse or I just down right suck, but the stun i get from the Sky Smash(I think), last for eons! I don't know what can be done with warriors.. Possibly nothing? And just make it to where warriors and sorcerers can have a balanced match without me having to use 3 attack skills, then switch over to another skills.


*Sorcerers are probably the hardest character to use unless you either have the best skills in the universe, or you have the whole mythic gun/Kershal, arcane ring, Sns/Samael/Singe set up.

[Robhawk]

How many years you want to discuss this over and over... A good start would be nerfing the elondrian gun -> HAHAHA !!!

[chorba69]

Yeah lol. Whats the point of these threads when you change nothing?

[Spellcheck]

Yeah lol. Whats the point of these threads when you change nothing?

Lol Ikr, so much for all these suggestions -_-. And the Mods or Devs will comment on this thread saying they will do it but in a month or two... Nothing has changed.

[Alhuntrazeck]

Yes, let's talk about class balance...

-Warriors' bulwark shouldn't have a mage's skill as a 100% occurrence on charging. That's just dumb. Warriors with bulwark now have 5 skills...To balance this, either remove the freaking curse proc, or drastically reduce its occurrence to, say, 10%? Or change the proc to an armor debuff to make up for the bulwark's lower damage...say, -15%.
I literally 3 hit myself using fire ice light vs a bulwarker. He didn't do anything - and didn't have a pet on to boot. Is that class balance?

-Fix mages. I'm sure most of us PvP mages are not looking forward to more damage to be like rogues. Instead, a decent HP and armor boost should be good. What I don't get is, why do rogues have more damage than mages, as well as more HP and armor? Tradeoffs, anyone?

For this, I'd suggest a 20% armor boost for all allies on heal. This would ensure mages don't get 1 hit immediately after healing which sort of defeats the purpose of healing, no?

Another useful buff would be a slight increase in base armor for mages.

-Make rogues have their pet dmg% added in CTF. I shudder to think of their damage with a pet damage % also being factored in - but what's fair's fair.

-Give mages a stun immunity skill like the other classes do. If it was made as an upgrade to shield, but lasts about, say 10s, it would be fine - considering the fact that warriors have stun immunity for 15s and rogues 5s (8s actually, but its glitched). The immunity should begin once shield is cast and should last even till after shield is broken if it should work well imo.

Something not many people understand is, CTF is a team game and the class balance was designed with that in mind. So, with these 4 changes, the classes should be pretty much balanced. Mages and warriors shouldn't aim to be rogues; support, healing etc are equally important.

[Alhuntrazeck]

In a class balance discussion, there are a number of questions that, imo, get to the heart of the matter.


How do we measure PvP class balance?
What is the ideal PvP class balance?
What is the current PvP class balance?
If there is an imbalance what is the best way to achieve the right balance?

Equivalent Exchange

Interwoven in every game, and in reality itself, is the concept of equivalent exchange. It's easy enough to understand. You don't get something for nothing, you gotta pay for it in some way. You have to give something to get something in return, etc. Arcane Legends is no exception. If you want a particular pet for your character you have to pay for it, either through plat, gold, opening locked crates, farming, spending time begging, etc. Getting from level 40 to 41 means working through 10 levels worth of experience.

When considering the ideal PvP class balance it's important to apply equivalent exchange because if you don't you automatically create a situation where one class reaps the benefits that another class should receive. Iow, one class ends up paying for another class' benefits. Balance is a synonym for equivalent exchange.

Measure of Success

PvP is a zero sum game, making it easy to measure overall balance by comparing the kill per death ratio (KDR) of each class. The total number of all kills is always equal to the total number of all deaths. There are other ways to measure PvP success like peer recognition, flags, games won, assisted kills, etc, but that's not where the 'real money' is.

Ideal Balance

If Arcane Legends had only one class it would take 100% of kills and 100% of deaths. If arcane legends had only two classes and they were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 50% of kills and 50% of deaths. Arcane Legends has three classes. If the three classes were exactly equal except in name, each class would take 33.33% of kills and 33.33% of deaths.

Thankfully, the three classes are not equal since that would be boring and pointless. Each class has a strength which it (supposedly) pays for by its weakness.

IMHO, this is what class balance should look like with three classes:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%




Class KDR should ALWAYS be 1:1.
Equivalent exchange occurs:

Rogues pay for 5% more kills with 5% more deaths
Sorcerers stay average
Warriors pay for 5% fewer deaths with 5% fewer kills


No more than 10% variance between highest and lowest total number of kills and deaths. Too much variance means PvP becomes boring, unnatural, and prone to excessive dramazzzzz.
A better than average KDR actually means something!
Individual players are more challenged. They must now use skill, superior gear, better team coordination, etc, rather than rely on inequity.


Not Pretty

Now that we know what class balance should be, what is it actually like right now?

I looked at the CTF and TDM leaderboards earlier today and did ye olde manual data entry into a spreadsheet. First, the raw number of kills:



PvP Leaderboard CTF Kills



Total
Percent


All
2,979,151
100.00%


Rogue
1,397,172
46.90%


Sorcerer
783,541
26.30%


Warrior
798,438
26.80%





PvP Leaderboard TDM Kills



Total
Percent


All
1,843,232
100.00%


Rogue
898,673
48.76%


Sorcerer
519,434
28.18%


Warrior
425,125
23.06%





PvP Leaderboard Combined Kills



Total
Percent


All
4,822,383
100.00%


Rogue
2,295,845
47.61%


Sorcerer
1,302,975
27.02%


Warrior
1,223,563
25.37%



The most remarkable stat is that the top 25 CTF sorcerers actually have fewer kills than the top 25 CTF warriors. o.0
The second most noteworthy stat is Rogues basically take half of all kills in PvP.

So what IS the the class balance right now?? WELLLL... We don't know the number of deaths for each of the leaderboard players (Hey Devs, how about a quick SQL script and u can post the results here? Plssssss!). I could painstakingly poll in game each player on the leaderboard.... uh, on second thought, no.

However, we can make an educated guess because we know a few facts:

The deaths distribution will somewhat reflect the the kills distribution, i.e. because the kills are not balanced deaths are unlikely to be balanced.
There is almost uniform agreement from every PvP player that mages receive the most number of deaths.

I think this is the most likely scenario:



Current Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent*




100.00%

100.00%


Rogue
Highest
47.61%
Higher
37.00%


Sorcerer
Lower
27.02%
Highest
40.00%


Warrior
Lowest
25.37%
Lowest
23.00%


*guestimate

And again:



Ideal Class Balance



Kills
Percent
Deaths
Percent


Rogue
Highest
38.33%
Highest
38.33%


Sorcerer
Average
33.33%
Average
33.33%


Warrior
Lowest
28.33%
Lowest
28.33%



The Kicker



Class Imbalance



Kills
%Error
Deaths
%Error


Rogue
inflated
9.27%
deflated
1.33%


Sorcerer
deflated
6.31%
inflated
6.67%


Warrior
deflated
2.96%
deflated
5.33%


Assuming assumptions are correct, we now know:


Rogue kills are inflated by 9.27%
Rogue deaths are deflated by 1.33%
Sorcerer kills are deflated by 6.31%
Sorcerer deaths are inflated by 6.67%
Warrior kills are deflated by 2.96%
Warrior deaths are deflated by 5.33%

The Road Somewhat Less Traveled

It's really up to STS to investigate this matter further. They have all the information that could truly shed light on the current state of class balance. Individual class KDR should be 1:1 and if it isn't there's an imbalance problem. I'm 99.9% confident that there is a clear anti-mage/pro-rogue/pro-warrior bias in the current class balance scheme.

Everyone has their opinion on how to fix the imbalance, but as Remiem pointed out in chatbox, developers rightly fear the bane of unintended consequences. Looking at the current imbalance scheme it's difficult to tease out exactly which button(s) to press to correct the imbalance. Even if the developers find the right button, pushing it might cause an uproar. Best intentions and all that lol. That being said...

REMEMBER PvP started being awful for Sorcerers when stun immunity was introduced. Pets made it even worse for sorcerers. Then it became clear Rogues did too much damage and Warriors did too little so they were nerfed/buffed. It feels like developers thought the matter had been laid to rest, but now that is much less certain.

My suggestion on how to fix the imbalance? From a PR perspective it's better to buff than to nerf so a sorcerer buff of some kind seems the best option, all things considered.

The leaderboards are pretty fine IMO. The rogues are meant to be the damage dealing class, so its only natural they get the most amount of kills.

They also die a fair bit, btw. One of the best rogues I know has ~20k deaths (if I remember right) and is #1 on the LB, so...

[Kingofninjas]

Warriors
No changes required, except maybe adjust (reduce) the curse rate on bulwark.

Mages
Personally, I think this talk about about being 1 combo breaking their shield and killing them is not true, except maybe if a ring rouge attacks. But then if we are going to compare a ring rogue, we should compare to a ring mage. In this scenario, I am pretty sure the ring rogue would not be able to 1 hit through the shield. That being said, mages are still definately too fragile. Once the shield drops, it is rare for a mage to survive if there is still a rouge alive. My solution would be to increase armour AND strength by 20%, and maybe provide a 1.5 second damage immunity once shield drops, giving them time to charge a counter attack and protecting them from being killed by an uncharged combo.

Rogues
No complaints here.

All in all, I think the HP and armour really need to be balanced with the damage so end game clashes do not remain a race to which rouge can 1 hit the other first or an endless spamming of samaels and praying that you do not get stunned yourself.

[Gensin]

I literally can 1v1 a mage and win easily a mage with samael or singe, I just wait and stun while his on his shield, then when its off eat his heart out, mages need alot of nerfing by alot i mean more than this forums can carry threads.

[Hue]

I've been seeing a lot of talk lately about class balance in Arcane Legends. Mostly about our favorite little blue dudes, the Sorcerers, but I'd love to gauge everyone's response to class balance in general so that I have clear suggestions to send back to the devs.

So! Let's discuss.

Please comment below with your feedback and suggestions on how we might improve class balance. And, let's keep in mind that BALANCE is the key word here. I know that everyone wants to be able to just own everyone in PvP, but that's not what balance is about. Each class should have their own strengths and weaknesses, and not feel either over or under powered.

Also, I know this is a hot topic and people can get fired up over something they are so passionate about. Please keep this discussion friendly, constructive and straight forward. This isn't the place to bash the game, other players or STS. This is the place for discussion about how we can make the game more fun for everyone.

Ready, set go!

If your going to attempt balance, then you need to consider the rich and the poor. Big plat spenders are obviously going to get their hands on rarest of gear, and of course with that come best of stats. Where the non-plat spenders are left high and dry.

If you want to balance PvP, everyone needs be of equal gear & pets. It can be a point system dedicated to PvP gear which you can buy in turn everyone can obtain through some sort of farming activity, or w/e the case may be, and everyone has a fair shot.

The stats given from said PvP, need to be balanced along with damage done, we already know rogues are able to crit quite high amounts, through juggernaut and armor some reaching 2.5k-3k+ which is half of most warriors health. In balancing the damage done by all classes this then focuses more on actual roles in PvP, Tanks being meat shields, rogues being dps, and mages for the stun/aoe.

A good example to look at is World of Warcraft at around the 60 level bracket, health isn't OP neither is the damage dealt, DPS doing 200's -500, and the crits coming in at 800-1k MAX, just food for thought.

[Instanthumor]

I disagree with everyone asking to buff armor value by a percentage. That'll make durable passive worthless and Gale upgrade less effective. Instead, should add 33% STR buff. As a mage now, I have 150 STR. After the buff, I would have 200 STR. Not a HUGE increase, but something that will help balance classes more (in this case, survivability for mages).

[Hue]

I disagree with everyone asking to buff armor value by a percentage. That'll make durable passive worthless and Gale upgrade less effective. Instead, should add 33% STR buff. As a mage now, I have 150 STR. After the buff, I would have 200 STR. Not a HUGE increase, but something that will help balance classes more (in this case, survivability for mages).

As I said, its a waste of time buffing/nerfing skills. PvP will never be balanced unless you address gear & pets, followed by damage reduction, then skill tweaks.

[MoloToha]

I think that the easiest way to achieve balance in PvP is to fix aimed shot crit damage calculation bug and make mages more durable by buffing arcane shield or just buffing their str and/or armor. Also either reduce bulwark curse effect or make this curse happen with not 100% probability. At least, it should solve major class balance problems.

[kinzmet]

@ Wyldstorm
You forgot one of the variables in leaderboard for it to be the basis of balance. And that is population, There are only a handful of pvp sorcs in all levels compare to vast numbers of rogues and warriors which causes the very unbalanced leaderboard your discussing.

To the balancing problem:
The only under-balanced class here is the sorcerers.


I've been seeing a lot of talk lately about class balance in Arcane Legends. Mostly about our favorite little blue dudes, the Sorcerers, but I'd love to gauge everyone's response to class balance in general so that I have clear suggestions to send back to the devs.



Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal<<<<<< This alone will tip the scale for just a bit, we will need the other buffs as stated below
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.


May I add, since sorcerers in general is given the lowest health and armor what do they get in return? Nothing!
-I would suggest to buff the sorcerers health and/or armor.
-Make the heal-over-time of the Re-growth be like the Ticks on warrior's Horn of Renew or rogues' Combat Medic packs Good Medicine.

[Bomm]

Warriors: WARRIORS NEED TO GET FASTER!
The cooldown is to slow, it must get faster and the health skill must get faster too becouse sometimes when i am low on health ( in pvp or pve) and i start too use the health skill i get killed ( for example in pvp while i start too use health skill get killed by rouges arrows becouse the skill is to slow.!!!

- New skill for pvp like axt throw
- And a little bit more Hp / armor

MAGES:
- A bit more hp and armor

ROUGES: ARE TO OP!!!
-lower armor / hp
- And lower dmg


The real problem is that warriors are to slow ! They have more hp and armor then rouges but the more hps are usles when rouges and mages are more faster and have mutch more dmg. Warriors need long too kill someone in 1 vs1 becouse of the low dmg and slow cooldowns. So they get first killed bevor they can kill.

[Spellcheck]

Warriors: WARRIORS NEED TO GET FASTER!
The cooldown is to slow, it must get faster and the health skill must get faster too becouse sometimes when i am low on health ( in pvp or pve) and i start too use the health skill i get killed ( for example in pvp while i start too use health skill get killed by rouges arrows becouse the skill is to slow.!!!

- New skill for pvp like axt throw

- And a little bit more Hp / armor

MAGES:
- A bit more hp and armor

ROUGES: ARE TO OP!!!
-lower armor / hp
- And lower dmg


The real problem is that warriors are to slow ! They have more hp and armor then rouges but the more hps are usles when rouges and mages are more faster and have mutch more dmg. Warriors need long too kill someone in 1 vs1 becouse of the low dmg and slow cooldowns. So they get first killed bevor they can kill.

In twink levels 1-21, the Warriors do more damage than the Mages. Mages don't have much more damage and warriors are faster than the Mages because they have Skyward Smash. And Mages have Gale but who uses that in pvp besides flagging?

It takes a decent war not too long to kill mages but some time to kill rogues.

IMO warriors need to get nerfed and mages need to get buffed a LOT!

[chorba69]

A question to the devs.
A lot has been suggested. Not only in this thread, but also in threads in General Discussion etc.
What I, and I'm sure the rest of community would like to know, is: Are you guys going to change something this time to balance the classes in PvP, or everything will stay on words like every time?
I'm sorry but, I dont really see a point of these threads where you ask for people's opinions. There was a similar thread last season too, but what has changed? Nothing really. Mages still dont have any chances in PvP.
Tbh, yes I play a mage, but, I did not enter any pvp room for a long time. Why? Just because there's no chance. Legendary warrior can kill a mythic mage without problems. And a mage? Guess what, mage cant kill a myth warrior. Expecially now when you nerfed the gun and when Bulwark.. Yes you know about the curse..
I dont see a point. Mage has a Curse >SKILL< and a warrior's weapon procs Curse 10x stronger than mages skill, and has shorter cooldown.
C'mon tell me, where is logic?
In this game people should have fun. Yes pvp and pve. Mages dont have fun in pvp. Sorry, they dont.

Once again, long story short. Devs, are gonna change anything or not? And yeah, if you change your mind and listen to the player's opinions this time, when are those changes going to happen? Hopefully not 2016.
Thanks

[Bomm]

In twink levels 1-21, the Warriors do more damage than the Mages. Mages don't have much more damage and warriors are faster than the Mages because they have Skyward Smash. And Mages have Gale but who uses that in pvp besides flagging?

It takes a decent war not too long to kill mages but some time to kill rogues.

IMO warriors need to get nerfed and mages need to get buffed a LOT!

I talk about Endgame pvp ..
At Endgame warrs sucks!

But you're right twink warrs are hard

[Kreasadriii]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

What I bold is I really really like it.
Yes, what must mage do when use shield than get a long stunt -_-
And the shield? is was 2 secs invulnerable, after 2 secs. 1 aimed critical could break the shield or bosses like abomination will hit mage easily.

I hope this supposed mean as competitive that warrior can also participate on timed run too. Give them space. ;)

[Energizeric]

Honestly, class balance is the main reason I got bored and decided to stop playing. From seasons 2-4, sorcerers were very competitive and I was able to compete if I had decent gear. Starting in season 5, unless you are insanely rich and can afford items that cost 50m+, you have no chance if you are a sorcerer. And even if you have all the top gear, you cannot compete against warriors or rogues that also have top gear. Yet warriors with legendary gear and no mythic or arcane items can still compete just fine.

I realize STS has tried to adjust class balance through gear by releasing this very good Elondrian Rifle. And yes, it does help a ton and makes me MORE competitive, but it's just not enough, and it only helps those few players who happen to own one.

For a true sense of class balance, you have to go to lower twink levels. Play at level 10 and try to be a sorcerer and then you will really understand. I have the best possible gear at level 10. All 5 items are the best discontinued items that exist for a sorcerer, and all of them have full grand gems. Yet I struggle to maintain a 1:1 KDR in PvP. Top geared level 10 warriors and rogues can beat me easily without much effort. In fact, even with all my top gear, I cannot take down a top geared warrior even if he just stands there and heals and doesn't fight back.

So the solution is not to buff certain gear. The solution has to involve buffing either our damage in PvP, or perhaps buffing one or more of our attack skills. But DON'T go overboard here or else the balance will tip too far the other way. I'd try testing such a buff at lower levels like level 8 or 10 with toons that have all top gear and see if you can create good balance between classes there. Then if it works, I'd try the same settings at level 20, 30, and then at end game. Any issues that exist at higher levels can be solved by adjustments in weapon stats. That is my suggestion. If sorcerers were able to compete, I may even start playing again.

One more suggestion.... It's too late for this season, but I suggest that the level 45/46 helms & armor give large increases in armor and health compared to level 40/41 helms and armor, and the level 45/46 weapons should only give a very small increase in damage compared to level 40/41 weapons. PvP at end game has become a sequence of being one-hit over and over. Only warriors can survive more than 1-2 hits, so whoever lands the first hit wins and there is little strategy there. Please do something to lengthen the battles next season. The PvE dungeons for level 45/46 could also be balanced towards this sort of change as well by having the level 45/46 elite bosses and mobs hit much harder, but only have slightly more health and armor than level 40/41 elite bosses and mobs.

[Markus Reynaldus]

Wow! alot of complains regarding the bulwark proc that, according to some, made the pvp climate unbalanced for sorcerers. Let me take you guys back to the Elondrian Event that made this weapon appear in the hands of warriors. During this time the proc rate is also 100% successful isnt it??? but no one dared to use this weapon as much in pvp because we all know that the stats isnt at par and the skill charging time took weeks when it first came out.

No one complained about the proc....

Then here comes the Test server to try out the planar update and the upcoming bulwark changes, no complains regarding the bulwark proc in there too.. ( i guess everyone is busy asking for arcane rings to devs that they didnt even notice the changes made in bulwark ) Some folks even call it Bulweak for crying out loud.

Now here comes the final changes for Bulwark, this somehow made the odds for the warrior on pvp on equal footing as rogues and mages that can easily kite warriors before in pvp. For the love of whoever is up in the heavens, stop complaining already, Play your classess even better and wiser to face the current changes that the Devs put in the table for us. Bulwark proc may have 100% success but it takes a long time to charge, usually for a second proc a warrior is sitting right in the middle waiting to chargem while getting bombarded on all sides and " Its hard to aim ". All bulwark user will attest to that.

[ColdBlahd]

For Rogue: Shadow Storm Shot should instant kill a player in PvP.

[SacredKnight]

Very simple post:

Warriors aren't strong enough.
Rogues are killing machines in PvP
Mages are too squishy.

:banana:

[Zynzyn]

Please just fix the pet dmg boost bug for rogues in pvp, we are still awaiting a fix that was promised several months ago.

Skills dont need buff/nerf for tanks and rogues. Speaking from a perspective of all levels and not just endgame, skill-wise these classes are fine.

Gear-wise it is alright at the moment but with the recent gear releases, we have seen tanks getting almost at par with rogues' damage plus the hefty armor and mana that tanks get from gear and vengeblood buff. Hoping sts does not let the scales slide to one side and maintains balance.

Mages heal should be buffed in some way and their gear does need some armor buff.

[Robhawk]

Everything is said a thousand times, STS IT STILL IS YOUR TURN TO IMPROVE SOMETHING !!!

[Bigboyblue]

So what is it mages think they need to be competitive? Arcane shield offering stun immunity, and absorbing greater amount of damage? Improve our heal skill, mainly the amount of health recovered over time? Would this two improvements be enough to get us back into the game?

[Ubernewber]

i was thinking maybe 2% automatic bonus damage added every level (not including putting in points) then .5%-1% past level 30 for Mages, this would help them at not just endgame but also at lower levels

[twoxc]

the way I see it as of right now. 1on1 rogue vs tank, the outcome can be either or. all base on timing the use of skill and pet. same goes for rogue vs mage. but if you put a tank vs mage. i'm sorry but mage has no chance period. the damage mage does isn't solid and faster enough like rogue to take out a tank due to it healing and also stun smash. either that bulwark curse is over power or mage just weak weak weak as hell.

[Ardbeg]

the way I see it as of right now. 1on1 rogue vs tank, the outcome can be either or. all base on timing the use of skill and pet. same goes for rogue vs mage. but if you put a tank vs mage. i'm sorry but mage has no chance period. the damage mage does isn't solid and faster enough like rogue to take out a tank due to it healing and also stun smash. either that bulwark curse is over power or mage just weak weak weak as hell.

even as awarrior i have to agree. mages need better options to get out of reach of the curse or need a serious armor/shield buff. while i agree the curse brings things out of balance i think it s a brilliant idea for a defensive weapon. and instead of just nerfing the proc i vote for making it harder to succeed with it, by giving especially the mages better evade and armor options.

[Serancha]

Most of this seems to be about pvp, but I, personally would like to see things balanced in pve so warriors have a chance too. Right now 80% of elite runs are done with just dps classes, because although we have not yet been able to nail down the mechancs, the fact is that runs are almost always much more difficult AND much slower when a warrior is taken along. This means that class is pretty much a joke for 2/3 of the game.

Look at the leaderboards for elite runs for the entire history of the game. I bet you can count the number of warriors on one hand for elite banners.

[Ardbeg]

Most of this seems to be about pvp, but I, personally would like to see things balanced in pve so warriors have a chance too. Right now 80% of elite runs are done with just dps classes, because although we have not yet been able to nail down the mechancs, the fact is that runs are almost always much more difficult AND much slower when a warrior is taken along. This means that class is pretty much a joke for 2/3 of the game.

Look at the leaderboards for elite runs for the entire history of the game. I bet you can count the number of warriors on one hand for elite banners.

warriors have no business in timed elite runs. sad truth, and i wish stg would find a way to add some options for warrs. i agree with you for the top tier of dps players (meaning skill and/or gear). but especially this season i m happy i am a tank, since running elite tindirin (compared to the dps checks of shuyal) with a tank, really makes pve interesting for tanks again, and i am in much higher demand than last season :)

[Serancha]

warriors have no business in timed elite runs. sad truth, and i wish stg would find a way to add some options for warrs. i agree with you for the top tier of dps players (meaning skill and/or gear). but especially this season i m happy i am a tank, since running elite tindirin (compared to the dps checks of shuyal) with a tank, really makes pve interesting for tanks again, and i am in much higher demand than last season :)

You're still limited, and your chances of a lb spot are just about none. I want to see warriors as an equal team member, not someone we take along for charity. There's a few exceptions like yourself, Markus, Rav who we take because of awesomeness, but it still means a harder run, for the most part, than it would be with a 4dps team.

This season is an improvement, but not nearly enough to call it balanced.

[Xpolosion]

Sorcerers:
- Vastly Increased Heal
- Shield should grant stun immunity & a slight armor buff. I would suggest a 25% armor bonus when utilizing shield.
- If not willing to grant shield an armor buff, increase the damage that shield can take by 1-2k more damage. Sometimes, all a sorcerer needs is 1-2 more seconds to kill a class. This can provide that easily!
Warriors:
- Their skills are fine, they do not need a greater buff.
- In light of new buffs to rogues or sorcerers, some sort of enhanced survivability buff should be given. I am not suggesting anything TOO powerful, but just enough to keep them competitive.

Rogues:
- Their skills are also fine, they do not need a buff or a nerf.
- Pet damage boost should be fixed for this class. It is not granting the damage boost of any pet, making a lot of pet happiness features unable to be used.

These suggestions are suggested under the assumption that most of them will be implemented. Otherwise, the logic ladder falls apart.

I agree 100 with zeus here. I think armor buff and stun immunity would be perfect. I also think making Bulwarks curse a rare proc would be great as well.

[Schnitzel]

Firstly, I don't PvP, but, when i read the stats on a rogue, warrior, mage (with ONLY mythic helm and armor equipt) I see:

Health:
Warrior > Rogue > Mage

Armor:
Warrior > Rogue > Mage

Damage:
Rogue > Mage > Warrior



Skills (mage) :
I would like if it is possible that our Arcane Shields can take a bit more damage, or increase our invincibility for a bit more than 2 seconds

Normal Stats (mage) :
I would like if our armor and/or health could be increased a bit

thanks

[Otaweoha]

Try any lvl mage without that green name or red name....then u'll know

[Nesox]

1. Gear is not the solution, nor the problem, of class imbalance. Don't even bother tweaking a few mythic weapons used by the 1%ers and think this this is the root of imbalance. Since it has been identified that the classes are uneven right up up through the levels whatever "fix" is imposed must provide the same result at all levels. Do not focus on endame and think this is a fair representaion of all levels.

2. Wyldstorm has made some worthwhile points on stats. Each class should be 1:1 average KDR overall (throughout all levels, not just endgame). Ideally I would like to see an equal chance between any two classes as well. The Warr>Rogue>Mage>Warr assertion seems to be propogated by those who benefit from the unevenness. Being told mages were only meant to be viable when hiding in the back during a clash is hogwash. Most games break down into a series of 1v1 anyway so having all classes complement each other in a team rarely happens as designed.

3. Mages need only one required skill. Personally I would like to see Lifegiver improved significantly and then the Mage Health/Armor stats modified so that shield is not a requirement (just like the other classes). Not being able to survive a single hit or combo is rediculous. If shield is to be buffed, with no significant changes made to survivability without it, then we had better be mini juggernaughts for the duration of the shield to compensate for being easy pickings for the following cooldown. Hiding from combat while shield cools off is not an effective or viable tactic. If shield is to be the requirement then we really shouldn't need to quick Heal between skirmishes as there is often not enough time to swap/cooldown/swap Lifegiver. Shield should be a defensive compromise as it is in pve or it should be viable enough to keep one alive for an extended period.

[Bigboyblue]

If the arcane shield calculation was [(2*intelligence)+strength]x3 this would be a good increase in the shield durability. With the increase damage absorption upgrade which makes the shield modifier 3.5 instead of 3 that would mean an increase of 1,568 damage being absorbed for my toon. Pretty easy fix to our shield. As previously mentioned remove knockback upgrade and add movement impairing affect immunity. These two changes would make our shield great.

I really believe STS should make these changes. They aren't extreme, and probably aren't even enough to even out the classes. However, it is a good first step, and after it's implemented we can re evaluate the class balance. STS, please don't take 6 months to make these types of adjustments.

[Soundlesskill]

Lower the difference between the best gear and dropable pinks.

[eternaldarkns]

mages need a buff.. with the previous bulwark all warrs now do is just use normal attack and that curse..oh come onnnn seriously i went straight to 27% with 1 fire bolt
its wayy better than even what mages have....either buff mages or nerf bulwarks i would suggest both
even mythic mages die against PINK WARSS. PLEASEEE consider tyy
after all its supposed to be based on ability right? not just on sheer dmg.....

[Remiem]

Hey all. Thank you so much for all of your feedback! I'm going to close this one up while I compile all of the data to send along to the devs. As you know, class balance is a delicate process. We do want to take the time that's necessary to make sure that everything turns out the way it should. Also, that being said, we also have a very full road map with changes and new content through the end of the year. While I can't promise that you will see changes tomorrow, I can promise that the devs are hearing each and every one of your suggestions and we are working very hard to keep the game fair, balance, and fun to play.