Diz's PvP spec!

[Diz]

*I'll try and limit this to just hard numbers, no fluff*

Spec 1 - tank mage

BASE STATS:

117 Str
2 Dex
61 Int

BASE GEAR:

Croc's Ursan Helmet
Flaming Sword of Legend
Zombie's Croc Scale Plate
Zombie's Saintly Shield

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1943/vioy.jpg
^ The above stats are not updated post 5/17 Swamp item buff patch. ^

The tank mage build is designed to live. With the other team focus firing on the healer, the healer will attempt to stay alive and simply provide heals and crowd control / utility on the enemy. No sustained DPS, no duels, no alpha striking with a big mana dump. This build is designed for two things - survivability and utility. It is also capable of standing toe-to-toe in a 1 vs 1 situation for a very long period. Chugs potions in PvE but doesn't die.

Spec 2 - battle mage

BASE STATS:

66 Str
Dex 2
Int 112

BASE GEAR:

Croc's Ursan Helmet
Mamboza's Voodoo Fire Pin
Mamboza's Croc Scale Robe
Skull Bracer of Mastery

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/571/vio2.jpg

The battle mage is designed for spam. A no-holds-barred, hit-every-spell-in-the-book frenzy of continuous healing and CC. Sticking and moving around the back edge of your team mates while spamming heals, single target Frostbites and comboing with storm if things get zergy in the middle. Dies a lot in PvE but completely self-sustaining for entire maps - very little downtime.

The following skills are what I've selected for both specs [with focus on PvP] -

5/5 Heal
5/5 Frostbite
5/5 Ice Storm
5/5 Fire Storm
5/5 Drain Life
5/5 Lightning
1/5 Mana Shield
1/5 BoV
1/5 BoM
1/5 Resurrect

I have Heal, Frostbite, Ice Storm, and Fire Storm hotbarred for major CC utility.

If anybody has any questions, recommendations, concerns, or general comments - please feel free to post them!

Also - a BIG thanks to other people who have shared specs and research, listed items, posted tips, helped me kick butt in game, or farmed with me along the way - that includes basically all of you. Woot!

[Rebel]

Love the build, at the moment I am also working on a PvP tanktress currently level 24. I have the 11 intelligence for the plus 1 m/s. Other than that I am not planning on speccing into intelligence any farther. I have about 40 points in dexterity and the rest in strength. Hopefully I can level to 35 before PvP arrives.

[Royce]

First of all, thank you for sharing. This is a cool-looking build.

Can I ask why you decided to go all Str beyond the Int needed for regen? I haven't tried a tank mage yet, but I suspect I would be tempted to get Str to the required level to equip the best warrior gear (112 I think currently), and dump the last few points in dex. The effects of adding to Str, or any of the three, decline dramatically at that level. I don't have numbers to back this up, but I would guess those 10 points would serve you better as Dex.

[Diz]

With the setup, two things are necessary. 112 STR for equipment, and 61 INT for base of 2 m/s. This leaves you with 5 points left over. Raising dex to 7 did not raise dodge a point, nor crit - it only raised hit a percentage [which is already decent] and damage by a single point [min-max]. I decided it wasn't worth it, I'd rather have the extra couple HP. You never know when you're going to survive a crit and have 1 HP for that quick heal and shield, I guess.

PS - Fixed numerical errors in first post, thanks for bringing that to my attention Royce.

[Xanthia]

There is only one MAJOR problem with this build, you only have 3 M/S. You are going to be out of Mana EXTREMELY fast. Yes, you have a large H/S pool but you will not have any other means to supplement your health bar, and you will not be able to do any damage, nor will you be able to Heal yourself or others because you will be out of mana. You got Mana Shield, which in your case is pointless because you only have 3 M/S.

[Diz]

I can run Swamps without using pots except on Frog - it was difficult to get used to initially, as I used to be mostly m/s, but I find that 3 is viable. 2, on the other hand, is pretty rough. 1? Brutal.

It's definitely not for players who want to spam spells or be aggressive, nor is it for being Rambo and trying to handle stuff solo - no damage means long fights without DPS help.

With less mana regen, the build is basically reactive, not proactive. Thus the build still holds true to the core concepts of the enchantress - healing and utility! :D

[Xanthia]

I disagree completely, this build may be good for PvE but will never stand up to PvP. One doesn't have a choice in PvP one can't be reactive, one can only be proactive. I'm sorry, I am not trying to bash your build but you need to think about how PvP works. I mean I guess if you wanna run around a lot and never help the build might be able to work as a running/survival build, but the build will falter when you have to cast a lot of spells in succession which is what will happen in PVP.

But, if you want to make an argument for why I am wrong I'd love to hear it and really think about how it would work.

[Diz]

My argument? My defense? My case?

Well, I've played MMORPGS and online games since 1997. I've won tournaments and ladders in multiple games, from dueling to group vs group to siege vs siege. Almost every time that I've played an online game, I've played reactively because, as you just stated - most people go all-out aggressive. It's just a different way of playing. If you are a better player, then you will be able to force your opponent into making a mistake. PvP in most online games, when based on rock-paper-scissors strategy, skill is negated by gear, level, etc. If the majority of players on an equal playing field, and twitch motor skill is mostly negated in an iPhone game, then drawing your opponent into making a mistake or forcing a long difficult battle upon them usually results in a victory. However, again, this requires you to make less mistakes than your opponent over the course of the fight, because you are playing reactively. Try it out out some time, Xan! I'm sure you could make a tank mage alt and see how it is by the time PvP comes out.

I wouldn't be playing this game if not for the promise of PvP, and I usually dedicate a lot of time and thought to trying to play on a more advanced level than my opponent. If the build isn't successful in the particular style of play I prefer, I will have no choice but to adapt - just like when patches, nerfs, gear, and level caps come and go over time.

Sorry for lengthy reponse, but you asked a question. It's not a simple answer.

[Hraefn]

I was building something exactly like this (except I trained Mana Shield as a measure of last resort -- drain life might make more sense) but I gave up after failing to obtain the gear. The way I envisioned it, this hardened healer would work best in a group with another, more conventional healer. It would help keep the other healer alive while both helped keep the front line alive.

The low M/S is troubling. However, as Diz points out, if it doesn't work, he can adapt. One way of getting a bit more mana regen is to swap out a Croc's weapon for the Flaming Sword of Legend. It's not an attractive option. You lose a lot, including H/S. But it might help.

I suggest we all wait and see how PvP plays out. At this point, we don't even know how much damage we'll be doing against various levels of armor.

Anyway, nice writeup, Diz. I hope this build works out for you.

[Violentsaint]

im gonna be so screwed in pvp, my mana regen is zero >.<

but i dont have any money to respec, or buy the pvp map packs (yes you have to pay) when they come out.

so ill only be able to play pvp on dark forest for free, hope everyone has fun with pvp :(

[Diz]

The low M/S is troubling. However, as Diz points out, if it doesn't work, he can adapt. One way of getting a bit more mana regen is to swap out a Croc's weapon for the Flaming Sword of Legend. It's not an attractive option. You lose a lot, including H/S. But it might help.

I was thinking earlier about whether or not there are any good M/S weapons that are STR req. If there are, it would be the perfect balance because the weapon isn't there for DPS.

[Hraefn]

I was thinking earlier about whether or not there are any good M/S weapons that are STR req. If there are, it would be the perfect balance because the weapon isn't there for DPS.

I wouldn't exactly call them "good." The ones I've come across only give 1 M/S -- but sometimes that can seem like a big difference.

[Royce]

Yeah the croc's weapons are nothing special except that they all have 1 M/s. Switching to Croc's Spike-Axe, for example, from the flaming sword would mean giving up 2 H/s to get 1 M/s. The DPS drop is huge (-19), but my spike axe is level 26, and there may be better ones out there. However, if you really don't care about DPS at all, it might be something to consider. You gain a little armor and sacrifice some strength going to the croc axe. Overall, this doesn't seem like a move I would make for 1 point of regen, but I'm not sure if you have any other options. Switching to a Croc shield would probably be even less desirable since you would lose a good bit of armor. I heard rumors of an armor found in the swamps that has 5 M/s and is for warriors. Does anyone know if that actually exists?

[Hraefn]

Royce,

I've heard mention of M/S armor (strength-based, that is) but have yet to see any. It's a bit like Bigfoot. My suspicion is that the devs intentionally made such armor truly rare at best. Otherwise, INT-based enchantresses would go the way of the dodo.

[Royce]

Otherwise, INT-based enchantresses would go the way of the dodo.

Very good point there. I really think that Int and Mana should be rethought. Why does everyone start with a relatively large mana pool, even with 1 Int? In most rpg's I've played 1 Int would get you a handful of MP or whatever, at best. I think the following could potentially improve the current problem of Mages not really needing Int except to meet a gear req.

~ Make all the skills of all classes cheaper to cast.
~ Have the Mana cost of using a skill increase as more points are alloted to the skill. (This would apply only to the skills which get stronger, not the ones for which skill points function only to reduce cost.
~ Reduce the base mana pool significantly. I'm thinking something like 50.
~ Dramatically increase rate at which adding to Int increases the mana pool.

This way an Str or Dex enchantress who plans to cast spells more than once in a while would still have to invest significant points into Int to get the necessary mana. I have a bit more to say about this, but I'm going to wait to hear if people just think it's crazy before continuing :)

Diz, I'm sorry to have veered off topic here :) Thanks again for sharing your build.

[Xanthia]

I guess if you are playing with a PUG this would be a good build, but if you have a solid team that communicates well and knows how each other plays, then you would need to be more proactive.

[Hraefn]

I guess if you are playing with a PUG this would be a good build, but if you have a solid team that communicates well and knows how each other plays, then you would need to be more proactive.

Actually I think the standard healer spamming spells would be better for a PUG where communication and coordination is minimal. This build might be better suited to a group that uses mana more economically. It would be funny to see a whole group of these enchantresses cycling heals and AOEs while hacking at a priorty target with their swords.

I'm not saying it would work but it would be funny.

[Xanthia]

A organized group would use more mana, they would just be more efficient in using it. In a PUG, as you said communication is minimal, you most of the time need to fend for yourself, where this build is for survivability. In a group, you can specialize because communication is there so you can focus and be proactive especially when everyone you in group with knows how to play, and everyone knows their job, you dont have room for someone who doesnt keep up to speed.

[Diz]

I mean I guess if you wanna run around a lot and never help the build might be able to work as a running/survival build, but the build will falter when you have to cast a lot of spells in succession which is what will happen in PVP.

An organized group would understand when to keep moving, when to keep pillar hugging, when to stay out of range, when to stay out of line of sight, and when to turn around and drop someone as a synchronized unit. Mana regen literally has nothing to do with playing with a PUG or a clan - it has to do with the PACING of the fight, period. Which is why I stated earlier, the build is reactive and not proactive.

Xan, you do realize there are not only PvP MMORPGs that feature combat based around static objects such as a flag or a sieged castle, but ALSO other games that are based upon timing and mobility and pacing. An apples to oranges comparison would be, say, WoW to UO in this context. However, BOTH games have potential for PACING to be used as an upper hand for the players who are using the better strategy during a fight.

There is nothing inefficient about 19 total regen at the time of 1.1... There is nothing about this build that says it's for PUGs or PvE. The only thing limiting a player from viability is proper utilization and practicality - meaning I won't be fighting like a fish out of water by spamming spells, nor would I hope my clan mates are spamming spells willy nilly, either. In my honest opinion, the best group will be the group that stays mobile as a unit and synchronizes attacks lightning-quick over Vent. Stick n move, stick n move...

Not an attack Xan, you just keep pressing me over and over on why you think this build is unpractical - this is called provinciality. I recommend you at least give the tank mage / paladin builds a try before you ostracize the build to "PUG land."

[Xanthia]

I am not bashing the build. I have already tried it, it is a good build. I agree with everything you said. I just believe that this build will not be as sucessful in PvP as it is in PvE, I am not trying to say that it will not work, just clearly stating that my opinion would be for it to thrive in a PUG group or PvE, over a highly structured PvP.

BTW - No Hard Feelings what so ever...No Hate, just opinions.

P.S. I am not narrow minded at all...or unsophisticated...

[Diz]

If it's an consolation, my only other char is a M/S regen mage. So in a holistic sense, I am hedging my bet [this build] in PvP with the status quo backup of the M/S regen build on my other char. If one build is better, I'll prolly run with that for PvP.

My build isn't really focused on H/S, as many assume, it's mostly just about survivability, which I believe will be a key factor for enchantresses in initial focus fire. My main concern for the viability of enchantresses in general, hinges upon their ability to take 2-3 people spamming at them in the initial phase of combat. If this build was to survive that initial focus fire, then my team would surely have the upper hand. This assumption is what the entire build is based upon, and I suspect the same theoretical logic is in place for the other variations of tank mages.

I do plan on switching the weapon for a M/S sword. I even took a look at NPC wands for lower levels, because I might be able to grab one with my 61 INT - lowest wand I could find on an NPC required 88 mana, though. For the current level cap and general maturation of the game, I feel that a base of 12+ H/S, 250+ HPs, and at least 5 M/S would be the most effective setup.

I know you're not bashing, you're just questioning - which is both good for discussion and necessary for thought provoking innovation. When we take the time to brainstorm and talk over untested concepts like viable builds for PvP, it helps all of us and I appreciate your exposure of flaws in the build. All builds have flaws, and learning how to minimize the weaknesses of templates is very important for all players - I mean, at some point, we're all gonna end up fighting pretty much every build a player can think of. :)

[Arjun]

Ummmm . . . .any thoughts on wot us Archers ought to be doing? [Spec/Attribute-wise . . .jst thought I'd add. . get the cover the rest of the team and shoot at the other guy's bit of course].

[Royce]

Ummmm . . . .any thoughts on wot us Archers ought to be doing? [Spec/Attribute-wise . . .jst thought I'd add. . get the cover the rest of the team and shoot at the other guy's bit of course].

:confused:
You are here -> Enchantress Class Discussion :eek:

You want to look here -> Archer Class Discussion (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/forumdisplay.php?9-Archer-Class-Discussion) ;)

[Arjun]

Yep, sure whteva u say holmes. . . thnks for tht. But was asking tha man for some inputs. Diz I mean.

[Diz]

Well, I've thought about archers a little, mostly in a meta-game context. I've played one to lvl 12, and I remember that it was fun to play. Obviously the archer is the DPS archetype with kiting and slight CC utility.

If I was playing an archer in PvP, I am uncertain what spec I would use. However, I would try and keep it ranged. This would probably limit my DPS equipment options to bows, and shield + throwing dagger.

In terms of specs or what stats to use, I'm not sure. I've considered it briefly, and then quickly realize I would be in over my head in speculation because I have not played that class beyond 12. However, seeing as archers are DPS, they could potentially be priorities in PvP for some groups or strategies. In this case, I might supplement my DEX with either M/S for more spammable utility, or more HP/armor if you find yourself being targeted a lot as a high priority.

I've considered using a DEX enabled setup with enchantress - there are several viable options with the variations of Croc gear - but I'm not sure if it is something I'd personally be comfortable playing as.

In terms of actual PvP tactics, I would try and play the archer as slightly defensive while focus firing targets and kiting anyone trying to attack me.

Hope this helps Arj...

[Arjun]

Master . . .

[Royce]

Yep, sure whteva u say holmes. . . thnks for tht. But was asking tha man for some inputs. Diz I mean.

Okay, well it's still quite aways OT, but it's not my thread, so I'm sorry for trying to shoo you away :)

[Arjun]

It's cool man. . .didn't mean to be clever myself. Jst pretty late. . .and u caughts me on the wrong foot.

[Edatx]

All of the below is TheoryCraft, no one is really going to know the dynamics of PVP until we actually get to test it.

When I hit 35 and started thinking about PVP I switched my Ench to a melee build. I was going to focus on survivability: healing and buffing my party while debuffing opponents-- being that "flex" person on the team that doesn't do DPS but is essential to a win. Melee build was awesome for PvE, when I switched to it I instantly felt more survivable running groups-- but one thing stuck out-- I used a TON of mana potions. Also, when I was attacking, if I had to move, I had to hit the auto attack button again before re-casting my spells. Since I was melee I was required to move into much closer range to do damage.

I think PVP fights are going to be about movement and I think the key to Ench surviving a fight wont be Armor, it'll be CCing Melee and LoSing Archers. I'm back to a caster build now and I'm focusing on mana regen. I also think the buff and debuff spells aren't worth a single point and it's better to get 6 second immobilization spells. I could go more into it, if anyone wants to theorycraft let me know-- but I'm sure a lot of my ideas will change after the first few days of 1.2

[Diz]

Yes, the 6 second immobilizations are crucial.

Personally the way I PvE is to just basically Frostbbite and Heal - that's about all I do. I never melee unless soloing.

Yes, this is exactly what I am saying Edatx - mobility and CC and synching on called targets will be key. Whatever group can survive other peoples focus fire target dumps will probably be the best group, no matter what their specs are or what their classes are or items... even though they will probably all be geared.

Our class is all about healing and CC / utility. However, our weakness is survival. The way I prefer to PvP in class based MMOs is defensive, so I attempted to make a build that could nullify some of the lack of survival [ala AR, HP, and H/S]. The other way of playing the character that I see as viable for my playing style is as other end game mages have been stating - a lot of focus on M/S. Both of these templates will be required to heal and CC like mad men, however they differ in that the M/S mage is better built for long drawn out group healing and my build is more focused to decoy as a target while surviving their focus as team mates go down. I really hope both templates are viable, but I wouldn't bet on either... yet.

It's clearly going to be all about the CC and heal spam, while somehow not dying in PvP. Whether or not mages can manage to do that more effectively with less survival or more spam power remains yet to be seen. So early in the game though, it's worth decking two toons out to try both [or more] specs when the time comes for us to battle!

[Diz]

Alright, I've updated the thread with an additional spec along with gear. Thanks for all comments and I hope more specs are developed and more discussion comes... we'll need to start thinking about strategies and dynamic tactics for PvP!

PS - I really mean it - thanks to everybody else for discussing enchantresses on the forums and in game, theres a lot more to this game than you think. Each update changes things and I hope they keep forcing us players to adapt and change and experiment.

[Edatx]

Here is what I'm going to start out with and tweak as I go:

http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad179/edatx/299c7cc6.jpg

http://i933.photobucket.com/albums/ad179/edatx/415b5cc7.jpg

I'm pumping up INT to 112 so I can equip my items and to get a good baseline for mana. The rest I'm throwing into dex for crit and dodge. I didn't want to throw 74 points into strength for ~36 hit points, I'd rather take the extra crit (pew pew).

My skills are a little weird (because they're pvp based). I didn't take any of the debuffs because they only last for 8 seconds; I think Weakness is a good emergency debuff, but only when you drop 5 points. Also, we don't know what kind of damage modifiers are used for PVP: if it's the same as PvE-- fights will be over in seconds because archers are critting well above 50% for 200+ damage. In that case any debuff spells are useless because you'll be dead trying to get in range.

I couldn't bring myself to put a single point into BoM (+5 str +1 Armor?!)-- BoV is a little nicer +25 health +2 regen for all party members. Going forward (assuming level cap is raised soon), I'll keep putting points into Manashield to get to the 12 armor mainly as an oh **** button. Better to be OOM than dead, and regen is pretty fast if I can get to a pillar

I'll probably run 3v3 with two Archers (gonna team with different combos of bears and birds) - I think range will have a significant advantage because you can attack as you move. However if a 2h warrior gets you in range it'll probably be game over unless you pop mana sheild and fireblast.

-edatx

PS - Why does wand damage sux?