Elite Leveling Group to 55

[Yahway]

Hey, it may be late but I just joined the forums. I'm looking at starting a hardcore leveling group that is dedicated to trying to become the first to 55. I'd like to meet you in game beforehand and do a few runs. I'm not positive what sort of group we need, but I'm thinking 3 birds and 2 mages, or visa versa would be optimal. All in death gear with shield and talons. I think that would be the quickest group. I can play any class if needed.

The spots in the group are open to any class so if you're a bear feel free to reply as well. ABSOLUTELY NO PALADINS. Please respond to this thread, with the time you play and/or pm me in game. I'll more than likely be one Lvlone.

[Survivorfan]

I guess I'll join. Survivorfan is a full Strength bear

[Royce]

First of all, the fastest group will have a bear to beckon mobs into tight packs so that Mage AOE can take them down more efficiently. Also, you want all 3 classes debuffs going together to take down mobs fastest. Beyond that if you just want speed, 1 archer and 3 Int mages would be best (though with keepers cosmos sets, not the more defensive death wand sets). And why on earth have your bird(s) use talons? Again that's a defensive setup, and you would clear much faster if they had sunblessed bows/megablasters.

[Zipponator]

Why no paladins?

[Lesrider]

Might as well say no dual spec mages, right Royce? ;)

[Royce]

Might as well say no dual spec mages, right Royce? ;)

Well yeah. I mean if you want an optimal speed clearing team, you don't want a wiffle mage ;)

[Lesrider]

Well yeah. I mean if you want an optimal speed clearing team, you don't want a wiffle mage ;)

Lol I'm actually glad people are starting these threads -- maybe the xp farmers will stick to themselves and leave those of us who just want to enjoy the game to do so.

[Yahway]

The talon death birds would have enough defense to get healed by the mages and enough dps to move quickly. A tank is nice, but I don't think the most efficient.3 birds and 2 mages with that setup are by far the quickest keeper run, hands down. As for why no paladins, because they have nothing to offer to the group. They at least a tank can taunt. Pallys sacrifice dps and mana regeneration for more armor. Anybody that has the slightest clue how to play there char can use health pots and not need to sacrifice damage and mana.regeneration. plus they have a mana shield. Pallys are useless. Hybrid mages dex/int are the best imo but pretty much any build for a mag with no strength in it is acceptable. Pally build just screams I'm a noob and.don't understand how to use potions or how character builds should be. Pallys are great for pvp, but beyond terrible for pve

[Yahway]

Plus, for death gear, the dps difference for talon vs gun is minimal. It is by far worth the survivability to sacrifice the small amount of dps.

[Royce]

Lol you really think talons will get you moving faster than bow/blaster/shotgun. Sorry but that's just crazy. How is that damage sacrifice for armor any different from a Mage in Str gear? Both are simply added armor for less damage...
And the main advantage of a bear is that they can beckon mobs into tight packs, amplifying the effect of Mage AOE.
Edit: Sorry I also have to mention that Int/Dex Mage is terrible, more damage than Int/Str, but still much weaker than pure Int.

[Echelong]

You are thinking of only DPS and you are forgetting the skills. A bird with a talon will have more dps than a bow or blaster but his skills give a lot less damage. Also with a full hate gear and using the Limbchopper a paladin can have a lot of dps and damage on skills you will lose a lot of mana regen but thats what pots are for. I don't care using pots since I have more than 4k of each and growing and I don't have more because of giving a lot to my friends.

Don't forget a tank they help a lot using beackon and rooting them for lighting combo and use your frost/fire combo then they stomp. This works great if you can time it. Also you should add that the group uses xp and damage pots.

[RedRyder]

Royce knows his stuff. It's best not to quarrel with him to avoid looking like a baffling noob.
That's a pretty bad way to start out just sayin

[Formora]

You contradicted yourself there...

You said no pallies because they sacrifice dps for armor yet you are asking birds to do exactly the same thing and use talon/ wing, to trade dps for more armor.

I mean, anyone who has the slightest clue on how to play their char can use health pots right? :P

[Arterra]

Anybody that has the slightest clue how to play there char can use health pots and not need to sacrifice damage and mana.regeneration. plus they have a mana shield. Pallys are useless. Hybrid mages dex/int are the best imo but pretty much any build for a mag with no strength in it is acceptable. Pally build just screams I'm a noob and.don't understand how to use potions or how character builds should be. Pallys are great for pvp, but beyond terrible for pve

first i was like :/ but then, i loled!

anyways. whatever you do, dont have a dual megablaster/keeper mage. not. worth. it. if you are going to split your int at all might as well get armor to stay alive thru crits and mass aggro while spamming aoes... you where not here for pre ao3 nerf i take it. if this is anything like it, you will beg mages to be pallys.

[Lesrider]

first i was like :/ but then, i loled!

anyways. whatever you do, dont have a dual megablaster/keeper mage. not. worth. it. if you are going to split your int at all might as well get armor to stay alive thru crits and mass aggro while spamming aoes... you where not here for pre ao3 nerf i take it. if this is anything like it, you will beg mages to be pallys.

I think he's planning to do crush runs till lvl 53 or whatever. I wouldn't make that decision so quickly. Ugh, I don't want to make that decision at all. Between the farming and the totem runs, I've had enough of ao3. I'm ready for the new content right away, even if the xp is slower going than Crush.

[Pharcyde]

This thread made me http://comedyjuice.com/upload/2008/10/lol-jesus-tattoo-294a110907.jpg

DPS means nothing. So what if you have a insane DPS? Do you have the base damage to back it up? Base damage is what makes you actually hit, without it, you'll be hitting constant dodges and misses on enemies.

Royce is like a Dexter; Hes knows everything about anything.

[Formora]

Plus dexchantresses are so ugly! Looks > Dps :)

[TwinkTastical]

Ok, so now that you guys have totally destroyed his self esteem..... which one of you wants to level to 56 with me?

[Pharcyde]

Well, STS saw what happened last time they made a dungeon way too easy, so we can assume the balefort sewers will be hard. So the setups were making right now might not be effective.

Anyways what I see as a perfect setup would be:

1 Paladin, 2 Mages, 2 birds. Paladin tanks, mages take down mobs, birds take down bosses and mob support. This IS a setup for if the dungeon is easy. All using two handed weapons to maximize damage of course.

If the dungeon is hard, I would consider 1-2 bears, 2 mages, 1-2 birds. I would put survival before speed, I am gonna cry when I pass 1.7k deaths.

Edit:
Ok, so now, whos gonna level to 56 with me?

I will!

[MoonYeol]

Well, if the mobs are easy and the bosses don't give more xp than regular mobs. The team would be 1 bear, 2 pure dex birds with blaster/shotgun, 2 pure int enchantresses with keeper sets. Period. Let's hope that's not the case.

[Lesrider]

Royce is like a Dexter; Hes knows everything about anything.

I assume you mean the one with a laboratory and not the serial killer?

[MoonYeol]

Well, STS saw what happened last time they made a dungeon way too easy, so we can assume the balefort sewers will be hard. So the setups were making right now might not be effective.

Anyways what I see as a perfect setup would be:

1 Paladin, 2 Mages, 2 birds. Paladin tanks, mages take down mobs, birds take down bosses and mob support. This IS a setup for if the dungeon is easy. All using two handed weapons to maximize damage of course.

If the dungeon is hard, I would consider 1-2 bears, 2 mages, 1-2 birds. I would put survival before speed, I am gonna cry when I pass 1.7k deaths.

Edit:

I will!

I don't see how a paladin can be an effective tank. Pallys lose aggro as soon as a bird or int mage starts attacking. Hell, a pure dex bird only has to LOOK at a boss to get aggro. And a bear would provide debuffs and beckon.

[Pharcyde]

I assume you mean the one with a laboratory and not the serial killer?

The Dex Book Dexter.
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/academic_programs/courses/phys290M/cosmology/DEXTER.gif
http://seerpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/DexKnows.png

[Pharcyde]

I don't see how a paladin can be an effective tank. Pallys lose aggro as soon as a bird or int mage starts attacking. Hell, a pure dex bird only has to LOOK at a boss to get aggro. And a bear would provide debuffs and beckon.

I used to be a Paladin and I was very successful at holding aggro. It's all about the skill of the Pally.

P.S. Taunt is crap. Beckon works a little bit, but most times the mob gets blasted away before beckon has a chance to pull them in.

[MoonYeol]

I used to be a Paladin and I was very successful at holding aggro. It's all about the skill of the Pally.

P.S. Taunt is crap. Beckon works a little bit, but most times the mob gets blasted away before beckon has a chance to pull them in.

That's just because you're one of the most experienced enchantresses in the game. ;) Most of the pallys I've played with couldn't keep the aggro, at least not on bosses.

[Formora]

Lol Pharcyde you just got sigged.

[Arterra]

That's just because you're one of the most experienced enchantresses in the game. ;) Most of the pallys I've played with couldn't keep the aggro, at least not on bosses.

lol... i agree that pally is not as good as holding aggro as int... which is annoying... but it can be done. i LOl when i got both lorekeepers spamming me at OL. i guess they are just good at passive aggro, considering aoe damage to people others arnt even touching.

[Pharcyde]

That's just because you're one of the most experienced enchantresses in the game. ;) Most of the pallys I've played with couldn't keep the aggro, at least not on bosses.

Bosses are tricky. I like to equip gurgux hammer on certain bosses, based on how hard they hit. A PvP and PvE spell layout mix is required, in order to keep aggro on mobs and bosses. PvE layout is maxing pretty much all damage spells that are AoE. PvP is laying out a mix of spells that will Debuff and provoke as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time. So PvP helps hold aggo, because you can see in PvP how effective your spell casting is. The better you get at all of these, the more likely you will out aggro even int mages or birds on bosses. (I notice skilled birds often take aggro on bosses because they are already 1v1 orientated as it is).


Lol Pharcyde you just got sigged.

Heheh I did?

[Yahway]

Ok, I'll admit I did not know about star driven skills. Thank you royce for filling me in. However, I still believe pallys are not going to help a group. Yes bear taunts need to be boosted but they can still hold agro better than pallys if done right. Also I bought all the death gear and with the shotgun, you lose dps along with health and mana regen, dex, armor, crit and hit% when compared to the talon shield combination. I could still be mistaken, but with star driven skills, the talon wing set would be the highest dps in the game. They only downside I see is that it is melee. I'm not flaming or trying to prove people wrong. Just opening it up to discussion.

[Pharcyde]

Were not trying to prove you wrong either, just stating the facts. When I first started, I thought DPS was over damage always. So I always used a talon and a wing. But I soon discovered that DPS doesn't break armor, its just the potential of it to. Think about it this way:

During Roman times, Roman soldiers invade a small city, a civilian attempts to kill the roman soldier with a old dagger. Yeah it has the potential to inflict some serious damage, but will it? If you were faced with very heavy plate mail and large square shields, what weapon would you want more? A fast dagger or a giagantic sledge hammer that will bust that armor and shield strait open?

Thats whats going on, think about DPS like a dagger and base damage/min and max damage as the sledge hammer. In order to inflict the most damage on armor, you need the higher base and max damage. Also DPS does not increase your spell/skill damage. Base damage increases the spell/skill damage of spells.

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=543801489619&id=905e700c0f123e1538fcf1786b0a9926&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.myarmoury.com%2ftalk%2fdownlo ad.php%3fid%3d29716

+
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/testudo.jpg

= Win?

[Wbto-Angeluscustos]

Ill join in.. i got a lvl 50 pure birdie (Angeluscustos) and i have a lvl 50 pally (Wbto) im not sure why you dont want pallys..

[Royce]

The DPS vs damage issue is pretty simple really. DPS is a highly misleading stat because it doesn't take armor into account. Armor is subtracted from the damage of each strike, so the effective DPS of high speed, low damage (generally high DPS) weapons is lowered much more by target armor, while high damage, slow weapons are affected less by armoring. Also, since weapon damage (not DPS) affects skill damage, high damage weapons lead to greater skill damage. If BS is anything at all like AO3 was when it first came out, talons, daggers, swords, and other high speed, low damage (high DPS) weapons will be nearly useless there ;)

[Zipponator]

If a person knows how to correctly use a pally then they are great! My build - 126int 171 str, i still do alot of dmg with my pally and with the extra armor will keep me alive so i can rev and heal. Whats the point of having a mage every second that dies , who will be revived??? You need one pally in group so you can have someone to rev and heal and not to die after a hit.

[Yahway]

Question then. let's say you have a group of 5 pallys doing a keeper run on victory gate. with the str ax from caves. keepers shield will easily go up 2 or three times. where as 4 birds with shield and talon and an enchantress(spec doesn't matter) will more than likely down it.before the shield, and.continue to inflict damage if the shield does go up. based on doing the cyber quests on three chars, a lot of keeper runs, dps is a big deal. So bosses may be more difficult (maybe impossible) but for xp purposes, trash may go down faster.

[Royce]

I'm not comparing paladins to birds. All I'm saying is that X number of birds using bows will take down a high armor opponent much faster than X number of birds with talons. And in a new campaign, where we will be using underlevel gear at first, it is not out of the question that we will see bosses that will barely be scratched by talons. DPS is meaningful, but you have to look at it for what it is, and remember the importance of damage as well, particularly when you expect high armor foes (like leveling up in a new dungeon), and for skill damage (why you never see a good bird in PvP with a talon). Edit: I will add that in a truly excellent group, DPS is more meaningful especially if you have all three classes debuffing (stripping away armor), but even considering that, I would still recommend a bow for the new campaign ;)

[Pharcyde]

Royce, you continue to astound me with how well you can explain topics...

[Physiologic]

DPS is misleading...only when the enemy isn't armor-debuffed at all. DPS is useless only in the hands of an incompetent team that doesn't use skills/combos to debuff armor. Yes, there's a certain cap to armor debuffs but we have to take into consideration the extent of how much armor we can actually strip away from an enemy/boss. Then, DPS can matter.

[Pharcyde]

If your team gets all debuffs and all of the combos for debuffs down, then thats the only time I would say DPS is really useful. But on the other hand, base damage will also come into play with all of this.

[Lesrider]

Isn't damage damage and Dps more like shots per second (well not second, but basically how many shots within a certain period of time)? Maybe they just need to rename "Dps" so people don't get confused.

[Physiologic]

Isn't damage damage and Dps more like shots per second (well not second, but basically how many shots within a certain period of time)? Maybe they just need to rename "Dps" so people don't get confused.

DPS is a function of damage and weapon speed (in seconds) and is what's shown on screen, but effective DPS counts enemy armor as well:

Effective damage = avg damage - enemy armor
DPS = effective damage / weapon speed


If your team gets all debuffs and all of the combos for debuffs down, then thats the only time I would say DPS is really useful. But on the other hand, base damage will also come into play with all of this.

I would imagine a set w/ high DPS being much better for boss battles (or any long, extended battles), provided your party is constantly armor debuffing.

[BigNick]

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16817-Guide-to-Advanced-Mechanics-in-PL-DPS-Crits-etc.


dps is good on bosses and meh on mobs. most mobs die before dps really matters because of skills. Dps matters against bosses while damage is more important for mobs, assuming you can break the bosses armor.

The argument can be made that more damage is more important against bosses because of skill spamming. I disagree, when facing bosses it is more important to strategically use skills and pots than it is to spam as much damage skills as you can, especially with the new themed boss battles.

[Royce]

DPS is misleading...only when the enemy isn't armor-debuffed at all. DPS is useless only in the hands of an incompetent team that doesn't use skills/combos to debuff armor. Yes, there's a certain cap to armor debuffs but we have to take into consideration the extent of how much armor we can actually strip away from an enemy/boss. Then, DPS can matter.

Still just going on experience I wouldn't plan to use a talon in BS. When AO3 came out, every Dex bird I knew who used a talon went to a scarab bow. There just seemed to be a sort of threshold where boss armor, even in good groups, seemed able to overcome most quick weapon damage.

[Physiologic]

Still just going on experience I wouldn't plan to use a talon in BF. When AO3 came out, every Dex bird I knew who used a talon went to a scarab bow. There just seemed to be a sort of threshold where boss armor, even in good groups, seemed able to overcome most quick weapon damage.

I wasn't there to witness it, but it just looks like they extrapolated enemy armor (and damage?) terribly for AO3's release and that's what caused them to nerf AO3. If they extrapolate enemy armor perfectly for BF, then I wouldn't really just throw away my Talon/Wing just yet. With a good party, Talon/Wing works just as well as a gun and still improves survivability in AO3, esp against bosses like Pl'Othozz and Galactic Overlord. Just my two pennies though - we'll see how enemy armor and damage plays out.

[Fyrce]

Too often I've seen lots of other types of groups be just as good as what is believed to be the optimal type of group. I believe BS will do the same. It all depends on the players. It's good to see at least 2 classes and as high damage as possible from a few of those members. Other than that I can't say. I've seen lots of groups succeed that would not have been considered optimal groups.

[Royce]

Well I think the contribution of skill damage to overall DPS is not something to overlook as well, especially considering the significant impact of blast shot's AOE combo to clearing maps, but I suppose we'll see ;)

[Lesrider]

Just going by common sense -- a 2h weapon SHOULD do more damage than a 1h weapon. You're sacrificing the armor for more damage. And if you're going 1h, you're sacrificing damage for armor. Just common sense. If a 1h weapon were as effective as a 2h weapon, no one would ever use 2h weapons.
Of course, 2h weapons also sacrifice speed.

[Physiologic]

Well I think the contribution of skill damage to overall DPS is not something to overlook as well, especially considering the significant impact of blast shot's AOE combo to clearing maps, but I suppose we'll see ;)

Oh definitely w mobs ill choose a gun over a talon, no doubt about that. With bosses I may lean towards talon/wing. I guess too many bad experiences in the past always getting boss aggro and dying w a gun in hand..

[Lesrider]

Oh definitely w mobs ill choose a gun over a talon, no doubt about that. With bosses I may lean towards talon/wing. I guess too many bad experiences in the past always getting boss aggro and dying w a gun in hand..

But when you choose that, it's for the extra defense, not the Dps.

The whole point of this discussion was that a bird with a talon/wing is not going to be as effective damage-wise as one with a bow/shotgun. Bc the topic creator said that you should be able to spam pots anyway, and therefore not need extra armor. Basically contradicted themselves by wanting people to use the 1h weapons instead of 2h.

[Physiologic]

But when you choose that, it's for the extra defense, not the Dps.

The whole point of this discussion was that a bird with a talon/wing is not going to be as effective damage-wise as one with a bow/shotgun. Bc the topic creator said that you should be able to spam pots anyway, and therefore not need extra armor. Basically contradicted themselves by wanting people to use the 1h weapons instead of 2h.

I would use it for defense and dps, and the argument I was trying to prove was that with full armor debuffs on a boss, its possible to completely remove the boss's armor. With no armor, DPS can be better than damage range.

[Yahway]

I'm saying the minimal (which for trash you're actually doing more damage) difference in dps for the other stats you get is well worth it. Especially if you aren't going to have a tank. I don't think there is much of a contradiction. My whole goal is speed. With trash mobs, I believe (I have not been here for a new content update so I'm not positive what to expect) but for trash, I believe the talon wing combo will be the fastest.

[Royce]

I disagree simply because AOE is huge while clearing trash (which is why for speed clearing, mages rule ;) ). Look at the damage difference of blast shot when using the bow or blaster set vs the talon, then consider that BS is the bird's most important tool for clearing trash, and of course don't forget that the damage increase is multiplied when used to Cruel Blast (Edit: In addition to being multiplied since it's AOE) ;)

[Pharcyde]

Agreed, AoE should always be top priority when mob clearing. DPS, crit, armor, m/s, h/s, all of it! Doesn't matter, just how fast the mob goes bye bye.

[Physiologic]

Ah this is how general discussion should be. I am happy

[Survivorfan]

Lol I'm actually glad people are starting these threads -- maybe the xp farmers will stick to themselves and leave those of us who just want to enjoy the game to do so.
(WAAAA) I just want the crown! Lol