Gem wand question? [Archive] - Spacetime Studios

Vanced

02-10-2011, 09:51 AM

Gem Shard is a fire wand with a burn proc
Gemstone is a dark wand with a weakness proc
Gem Star is a lightning wand with the highest damage but no proc

Thanks Royce,

Are any of the procs AOE, are the skill bonuses the same, any crafting implications for one vs other or three diff 55 recipes?

And just what I am sure is another meaningless compliment, but this may be my first post but I have been a lurker here for a long time so my thanks for the answers to countless questions you didn't know I was even asking...

~Vanced

Royce

02-10-2011, 10:00 AM

Skill damage is the same for the Star and Stone wands and only a bit lower with the shard. All three can be crafted into enchanted wands, so it's really just a matter of which type you prefer ;)

Vanced

02-10-2011, 10:26 AM

Thanks again Royce,

This is your world and I am just living in it..

Royce

02-10-2011, 10:34 AM

Thanks again Royce,

This is your world and I am just living in it..

Lmao ;)
Also I just looked at these again and apparently the star and stone wands have the same average damage (stone has higher max but lower min). Coulda sworn the star had higher damage when they first came out, but not currently.

Vanced

02-10-2011, 10:43 AM

Lmao ;)
Also I just looked at these again and apparently the star and stone wands have the same average damage (stone has higher max but lower min). Coulda sworn the star had higher damage when they first came out, but not currently.

Yeah, I had just noticed that as well but was looking at 53's... for some reason I thought your original comment was correct as well but maybe about the 51's when I first looked at them... *shrugs* I will probably end up with a couple anyway for different situations... either the suicide bomber build or the mother theresa...

Vanced

02-11-2011, 08:36 AM

I don't know why it didn't dawn on me to ask this but does the weakness proc stack?

Thanks...

Royce

02-11-2011, 10:01 AM

I don't know why it didn't dawn on me to ask this but does the weakness proc stack?

Thanks...

Yes, up to a point.

WhoIsThis

02-13-2011, 08:54 PM

Royce - do you think that any of the wands are worth getting over shadow glow stick (Yanis's pic (http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb387/YanisW/IMG_0985.png))? Right now, I'm looking at the Mega Mage Level 55 Gemstone Wand, but am very reluctant to buy because its very expensive (400k+) and prices are still falling. Currently, I'm all shadow with a ring (here (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TVcLHd42moI/AAAAAAAAAGk/KIRoDptqk3k/Drop.png)).

Stats for gemstone (from Yanis):
Req: Level 55, 173 Int 112-158 Damage, 1.0 Speed, 12 Int, 8 M/s, 10 Armor

Glow Stick of Shadows
Req: Level 50, 157 Int 97-142 Damage, 1.0 Speed, 12 Int, 5% Hit, 4% Crit, 5 H/s, 5 M/s, 7 Armor

My other fear is that the devs could release some uber level 56 only weapon. In one month, most people who are level 55 right now are going to be level 56.

Benefits I can see:
- Better actual damage
- Better spell damage
- Slightly better armor
- Weakness proc

Drawbacks:
- Loss of critical hits and hit percentage
- No health regen

Also, how potent is the weakness effect? Thanks in advance.

Royce

02-13-2011, 09:04 PM

IMO the gemstone wand is a pretty big upgrade from the glow stick. You lose a bit of Crit (the hit% hardly matters since as a pure int mage you will still be around or over 100%). You gain mana regen (health regen is the absolute last stat a mage should look at), and you get better damage and significantly higher skill damage. The gemstone wand also carries a weakness proc. The gem star wand carries all the same advantages except, being a lightning wand like the glow stick, lacks the weakness proc (and seems to have a speedier projectile which could actually help your DPS a bit). Whether the upgrade is worth the current prices is up to the individual, but prices will certainly decrease over time.

WhoIsThis

02-13-2011, 09:14 PM

Thanks again. If I find a good price, part of me is tempted to buy.

I'm still worried though that it is inevitable that there will be a new set of weapons. When I first joined, void, rift, and cosmos were the sets to have. Then new sets came out with the Shadow Caves. I assume that you've been here for a long time now - how long do you think before the devs will release something based on historical precedent? Every month?

Some of the more senior players talk of when they had to make compromises between gear like thoth, isis, osiris, and horus when the level cap was 45.

Royce

02-13-2011, 09:28 PM

Well I'm not sure we'll see elite gear any time soon, though there could very well be more gear added. I suspect it will more likely just offer alternative types of stats and not necessarily be "better". In fact it's kind of hard to think of a gear bonus better than what mega mage has, max damage, M/s and armor. Anyway, I think the current gear will likely be the top stuff for a while, but there's no way to really know anymore. It used to be that you could predict this stuff better but with the last couple campaigns the devs have has a tendency to break from their previous patterns, so it's just hard to say for sure.

WhoIsThis

02-13-2011, 09:58 PM

All right - illuminating insights. I guess I will be buying then.

If you're interested, a level 55 gemshard wand can be had for 140k, a level 55 gem star wand for 400k, and a level 55 gemstone wand for 450k. It's not that accumulating cash is hard or anything, it's just that levelling to 56 is a bigger priority. I suppose the big disparity in price right now is due to the rarity of the items.

Part of me is tempted to just buy the gemshard, eat a gold loss (when the price inevitably falls - 140k isn't an unreasonable price) and then just buy the gemstone when it is cheaper.

Edit: Someone has just posted a gem star for 390k. Lol.

I also don't think that it's worth crafting any of the mage equipment right now.

Royce

02-13-2011, 10:14 PM

I started off with a level 51 mega mage gem shard and it was a nice wand, lower weapon damage than the stone or star, but with a burn proc for a bit of additional damage. I moved to the level 43 Star wand when I got the drop, and definitely noticed the increased damage from it, but the shard is definitely a better deal right now. And yes do not craft your mega mage gear unless you have an Int bear ;)

WhoIsThis

02-13-2011, 11:15 PM

Bought the gem shard wand for 140k. Spell damage-wise, it's only slightly better than the glow stick; +7 on average. Still, every bit counts. I assume you mean the 53 star wand.

I guess the only thing to do at this point is to wait for the gemstone wand to be a more reasonable price.

Edit: It was the 55 shard I bought and I'm waiting for a 55 gemstone wand.

Royce

02-14-2011, 12:18 AM

Yeah the star wand and stone wand have identical damage and give identical skill damage. The shard wand is lower but still a bit better than the glow stick. Don't forget you do have the burn proc though, so it's a nice ranged combo with frostbite if you use it.

Otukura

02-14-2011, 01:10 AM

temporarily redirecting this topic.. lighting from the spell lowers your armor but the wand does not? Just checking...

Royce

02-14-2011, 01:13 AM

temporarily redirecting this topic.. lighting from the spell lowers your armor but the wand does not? Just checking...

Yeah lightning the skill has a small armor and damage debuff actually, but no lightning weapons I have ever tested have had any proc at all.

Vanced

02-14-2011, 11:36 AM

I agree with Royce,

I have played a good bit with the four wands in question... hands down the gems are better than glowstick for skill bonus alone...

IMHO... The shard is the better deal... dmg decrease is more than made up with the proc to the point I think I was out dps the star... the stone seems to be the cadillac right now due partly to the rarity combined with marginally better numbers and the proc...

I have settled on the stone wand and just go to the blast staff if I need a little more boom... common knowledge the aoe is nice for street sweeping and even higher skill bonus to boot...

And that is just my worthless virtual 2 gold on the matter....

WhoIsThis

02-14-2011, 08:58 PM

@ Vanced:

Have you compared the shard and the stone? Which one do you think is better? I'd say that the net damage ought to better with the stone due to the higher damage and armor debuff.

I haven't tested the staff yet; I prefer wands. Still, I'd like to know if the stone staff or the blast one is better.

Xymorg

02-14-2011, 09:26 PM

I tried asking on one of the combo threads but it got buried. The gemstone's darkness combos with mages debuff skill for "drained" with the same visual effect as the mage/bear " terror!" combo. Is this item combo unique to this particular darkness weapon? Does this factor into the proc choice at all?

WhoIsThis

02-14-2011, 09:48 PM

I think that the gemstone staff also has the effect.

Precisely how much armor is debuffed though and whether the same level staff debuffs more is a mystery to me.

Royce

02-14-2011, 10:13 PM

There's some misinformation going on here.
Gemstone wand procs partial weakness, reducing target damage and can combo with hellscream for terror (just like the Mage skill weakness can)
Gem Star wand has identical damage to the Gemstone wand but no proc (lightning weapons have no proc)
Gem Shard wand has the lowest damage but a burn proc that does additional damage and can combo with frostbite or icestorm
Gem Blast staff is a fireblaster with AOE damage and a burn proc (like the keeper staff)
Gemstone staff as a lightning staff (like the mirage staff) has no proc and no AOE but (unlike the mirage staff) has good single target damage

WhoIsThis

02-14-2011, 10:35 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Royce.

- Gemstone has the weakness proc (So bring Gemstone Wand with bear) - hopefully there will be a good price for one soon.
- Gemshard and gem blast are both fireblasters with burn procs, but only the staff has AOE
- Gem star is probably the least attractive, as it only does as much as gemstone, but no procs

For the burn and weakness procs though, any idea how strong they are?

Royce

02-14-2011, 10:53 PM

The damage of burn proc is underwhelming on it's own, but when used on a frozen target it causes very nice damage on top of the wands damage. The gemstone wand drops target damage by 10 and stacks.

Xymorg

02-14-2011, 11:43 PM

I solo quite a bit and get the " Drained" combo without any bear around so I don't think it's a "Terror" combo. Though it has the same animation.

I was just using my flusher's gemstone wand to see and I believe the drain is actually a mana drain since it makes blue numbers over my head.

If you look for the words, it definitely says "Drained". Royce might just kill the target too quickly to let the buffer roll to the combo name :)

Royce

02-14-2011, 11:48 PM

Huh, I'll have to test that out in PvP. Mana draining might be hard to spot though. Anyway, it does proc weakness, so if it also drains mana that's in addition :)

WhoIsThis

02-15-2011, 12:15 AM

All the more reason it seems to buy the gemstone.

I suppose that you'll have to get a volunteer (someone that trusts you), promise not to kill them, set up a private game, and test. Fire a few shots at them and see if they report mana drain. I could volunteer if you'd like.

Xymorg

02-15-2011, 12:39 AM

Yeah, I'll volunteer too, I mostly play Xymian anymore. The Part of the drain that I see is the positive transfer of between 0 & 6 mana to my character for BS trash mobs. It's repeatable and easy to spot, unless theres another reason for non negative blue numbers over my head. So its like a combo proc the raises effective m/s.

Royce

02-15-2011, 12:46 AM

Ok I just tested buy definitely need to test more. This is the first dark wand ever to not proc weakness, but does have a Drained combo with the weakness skill (and presumably other dark procs if working with another mage in tandem). I tested it out for a while in PvP, but my target dummy saw nothing over the usual weakness effects. He also had 0 M/s and did not see his mana decrease. All my more reliable dummys were busy though and I'm not 100% confident about the findings. Definitely needs more testing.

Xymorg

02-15-2011, 12:57 AM

Ok this is interesting, I'm specifically talking about a Flusher's Gemstone Wand that I use for this combo (I always thought Drained was a pun for flushing) & I only see Scapers & Scubbers in CS. Gonna go buy the other ones to see if they combo, too.

Royce

02-15-2011, 12:58 AM

Yeah I tested with Mega Mage and it definitely combos, we just could detect any actual effect :/

Xymorg

02-15-2011, 01:26 AM

Yeah they all do. It is hard to tell what the combo does, though. The mana gain I see is strange in that it can be multiple hits for a while after the combo, so like for a while after a Drained combo, the wand procs a mana drain on some hits in addition to (or instead of? ) armor debuff. You do see the blue numbers for the wand user, right?

Vanced

02-15-2011, 09:09 AM

Hummm... interesting development on procs... I have also noticed the blue mana regen numbers during play and to sound like an idiot it didn't dawn on me what was going on... since the most part I have been using the shard due to grinding and quick max single target dmg needed for some of the bs boss mobs like chests for goldie and totem for gobo king ... I am going to have to play more with the stone as well... mine were the mega mage wands btw so it is not just the flushers..

Keep us in the loop for what ya find Royce...

And to answer "WhoIsThis"... there isn't a clear winner between the stone and the shard in my opinion right now... may change my opinion if proc stuff gets more interesting...

My advice is be true to your build or what you are tryin to do or need... the wands are so close...

The shard is a better deal right now if price is a concern for you.... the burn dmg is significant so without heavy testing imho that is your highest dps wand... so if you are " I blow stuff up" build and need to pile on dmg as fast as possible go with it... for quantity mob killing grinding the debuff wouldn't really matter...

If you are more of a cleric build with buff and debuff being your bread and butter go with the stone... long boss battles or high dmg bosses the debuff procs really matter... or when we get the proc sorted out and if ya are a retro int bear with crafted robes any extra m/s would be nice...

Royce

02-15-2011, 11:25 AM

I'm not sure about that vanced. The burn proc only seems to go off about one out of ten attacks, so you basically get like a 10% increase over the weapon's listed damage. In addition it seems like goblins in the sewers may have some sort of fire immunity so it may not even work on them (they as hard to Hot Flash as ice restistant LE mobs, and wouldn't make sense for them to have ice immunity so I' guessing fire resistance). The Stone and Star wands also give you higher skill damage than the shard, so I would say they are more for the blow stuff up type of mage. What the fire wand gives you more than anything is a ranged combo with frostbite (Steam), so I'd say the Shard is really more for the support type since your lower weapon and skill damage draws less aggro and you can combo from afar.

King Richie

02-15-2011, 11:30 AM

All procs imo need to be looked at and made a bit beefyer and better visuals for the procs as of now in the middle of a pve fight you would never know if your wand was proc'ing or if a mage beside you was hitting debuffs .... ( i love visuals ) =)

Vanced

02-15-2011, 11:51 AM

Royce...
I will be the first to admit and think I did that I haven't done any hard core number crunching testing... (That is your job, I am Engineer for a living and know the value and difference.. That is why I started thread...lol) and when I was doing my quick gut feel tests I was doing solo keeper runs... my proc rate cetainly seemed higher than that and wasn't comparing dmg on mummy and shadows vs gobos or slime but seemed signifficant enough in AO3 to overide the skill bonus difference... so i just ran with it, but mob resistance may and would change that, and to King's point.. when in a full blown run in sewers hard to tell... hard to see with all the normal casting and fire traps going off... and I wasn't really paying close attention at that point...

So as usual, Royce you are probably right... lol

Royce

02-15-2011, 11:57 AM

Well all this stuff needs more testing (particularly that drained combo), and thanks for starting this thread, it has been a kickstart to get this stuff figured out. Now please start one about the staffs too :D

Vanced

02-15-2011, 12:05 PM

Agreed drained combo has my interest as well... got my stone equiped right now...lol just need some time...

Staffs... lol... is that really a question... IF ya already made the call to go staff... there is only one question, and to butcher Shakespeare ... "To AOE or not to AOE, that is the question"

Royce

02-15-2011, 12:10 PM

Staffs... lol... is that really a question... IF ya already made the call to go staff... there is only one question, and to butcher Shakespeare ... "To AOE or not to AOE, that is the question"

Right but it's a more interesting question this time around. In AO3 the keeper was the clear staff choice because in addition to having AOE, it had the highest damage and skill damage of any staff. In BS, there are many new factors. The non-AOE staff has better damage (same skill damage though) and armor, an in BS AOE can be a bad idea in many situations. Anyway, don't want to go off topic (well apparently I do ;) but I'll stop now).

Vanced

02-15-2011, 01:26 PM

... Anyway, don't want to go off topic (well apparently I do ;) but I'll stop now).

Ask and ye shall receive ...

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?19378-Gem-staff-question

Figured out that drain proc yet? ;)

Kalielle

02-15-2011, 11:25 PM

Xom and I were testing the Drained combo in pvp yesterday night (weakness plus stone wand damage) and just like Royce found, we also couldn't for the world see that it does anything beyond the effect from Weakness. We were careful and tested many times and Xom was watching his stats the whole time but it just doesn't seem to do anything even though the animation with the shadow face showed up. Really strange. Would love to hear if anyone figures this one out.

WhoIsThis

02-16-2011, 05:47 PM

I don't think that the shadow is for anything but looks at this point.

Royce

02-16-2011, 06:45 PM

I don't think that the shadow is for anything but looks at this point.

I'm sure the Drained combo does something. Exactly what is a mystery, but it took weeks for the community to figure out all the new procs from AO3 when it came out (actually execute took months to properly define). I'm sure we can figure this one out too ;)

Xymorg

02-16-2011, 07:46 PM

Has the hypothesis that a "Drained" combo puts a mob in a temporary state where subsequent hits can proc a mana gain to the hitter been disproven? It fits all the observations I've seen.

I saw where the target mp doesn't decrease in testing, but it doesn't have to work like that. It could just be a straight mana gain proc without a drain on the target. The asymmetry may just have been something like a late balance adjustment for pvp concerns.

Royce

02-16-2011, 07:55 PM

I considered that and will try to test. The problem is that, even using a gemstone wand with no regen and no regen gear, you will still have some mana regen from the Int you need to equip it. IOW if it's a big gain, it should be easy to spot but if not, it might prove difficult. I also want to test if it might just be an M/s buff for the caster, and will test that shortly.

WhoIsThis

02-16-2011, 09:19 PM

Could it be possibly a second proc? Like the wand having both a weakness proc and maybe, say, a nightmare proc?

Until we can prove something and establish that it is potent enough to make a real difference, I think that I will assume for now that it is just for looks. Still, the gemstone is still my top choice for a wand.

Royce

02-16-2011, 09:22 PM

Could it be possibly a second proc? Like the wand having both a weakness proc and maybe, say, a nightmare proc?

No I tested and it actually has neither effect (almost all dark wands proc weakness and dark staffs proc weakness and nightmare, so this is a definite oddball). I'm starting to think it is simply mana added to hour pool when it procs ( on a weakened mob). Unfortunately that's not super easy to test but it seems like the most likely answer at this point.

WhoIsThis

02-16-2011, 09:24 PM

Another possibility that I suggested to the mages was area damage - ex: the wand has an area weakness proc.

Yet another suggested by another mage is that the shadow is some sort of damage over time on top of the main weapon damage. That one should be easier to test, but I don't think that it is true. I haven't heard anyone describe in PvP being hit by damage over time after engaging high level mages.

As I said earlier, I doubt right now that the shadow is much but for looks. Of course, it's entirely possible that future patches could change this.

Xymorg

02-16-2011, 09:37 PM

Regular m/s doesn't show above your head so I don't see why it will be a hard calculation. Mana pots & getting hit with mana shield are the regular blue numbers. The small positive blues are likely the mana gain proc effect.

I can just imagine if a dev is following this thread they are getting a good chuckle at us runnin in circles ;)

I went back & checked & all the gem wands have this mana gain proc effect:

Gem star with nightmare
Gem shard with nightmare
Gemstone with weakness

The gemstone is just the only one that has the animation for the combo.

Once you get into the mana gaining status with the appropriate debuff fr the wand, all debuffs and buffs (including heal) seem to cause you to roll for a small <10 mana gain.
That explains the multiple small mana gains you sometimes see back to back.

I kept switching back to other weapons to see if it was just always there & I just never noticed, but it seems to be only the gem wands with this effect.

WhoIsThis

02-16-2011, 09:39 PM

I should probably buy a gemstone myself. I'm relying on observing other people right now for tests. Lol.

Any idea why the gemstone is the only animation? Maybe it's effect is more powerful than the other two?

Xymorg

02-16-2011, 11:45 PM

Royce

02-17-2011, 01:27 AM

Extra fun :
When mobs are in this gem wand/debuff affected state, other mages in party who don't even have a gem wand seem to also proc a mana gain (or at least get a small blue non-negative number rising out of their head) with buff or debuff skills.

The effect makes mobs give out mana like little pez dispensers.

This is very strange. The other wands do indeed show the same mana gain effect, except with nightmare. However, there is no combo text, visual or sound effect, or drained text. I'm wondering, if this is supposed to be an effect of all gem wands, if the fact the gemstone doesn't proc weakness might be a bug, or if possibly the proc happening with the other wands could be a bug...

Vanced

02-17-2011, 01:40 PM

This is very strange. The other wands do indeed show the same mana gain effect, except with nightmare. However, there is no combo text, visual or sound effect, or drained text. I'm wondering, if this is supposed to be an effect of all gem wands, if the fact the gemstone doesn't proc weakness might be a bug, or if possibly the proc happening with the other wands could be a bug...

... * looks for his wand programming decoder ring * ...

Royce

02-17-2011, 01:43 PM

... * looks for his wand programming decoder ring * ...

* PM's Cinco instead * ;)

Vanced

02-17-2011, 01:48 PM

* PM's Cinco instead * ;)

Same thing right? You and all your silly semantics... ;)

CosmoxKramer

02-25-2011, 09:15 PM

I have a question. I am still having a hard time giving up my Blizzard stick. when i solo tested some of the highest dps wands (weapon dps) against some bosses with just pure wanding, the Blizzard stick always seems to kill quicker. I do tend to pull a lot of aggro on bosses as well in the Sewers.
Here are some screenshots. I have 55 MM helm, 55 MM chest, 55 Lowman's gemstone bracer, and 1% crit 11 damage ring.

Would you recommend getting an MM want.

<edit> updating pictures
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/johnsbar/PL/IMG_0575-1.png
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/johnsbar/PL/IMG_0574-1.png
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/johnsbar/PL/IMG_0573-1.png

Vanced

02-25-2011, 09:24 PM

Hummm... do I want to save Royce the trouble here or not... knowing he is probably typing right now...

But I will rehash the short answer... it is a lesson we all need to learn... tons of threads already about total dps vs weapon dps... and benfits of high dmg weapons.. but in this case... bottom line look athe dmg of lightning then equip any gemstone wand lowmans for example then look at your skill damage... should be enough to prove it to ya... add the extra dmg of a mega mage wand bonus then... bOOm....

FluffNStuff

02-26-2011, 12:54 AM

Drained is a simple damage combo, not a debuff or 'mana stealer'. Posted full details here:
http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?20176-Drained-Mage-Execute

CosmoxKramer

02-27-2011, 09:05 PM

Well, i was intrigued by the difference of Blizzard Stick and MM gemstone wand. I built a little emulator in excel to run through dps tests for each. I factored in the following
-Was Blessing of Might active
-Was Weakness active
-MM Gemstone wand proc at about 33% (after testing on some Djinn's it was <50% but probably better than 25%)
-Using the following forum post i derived the following as well - Advanced Mechanics in PL (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16817-Guide-to-Advanced-Mechanics-in-PL-DPS-Crits-etc.&highlight=advanced)
-Enemy armor seems to reduce damage by 35%
-Crits are 2x damage of weapon/skill
-Hit has a cap that is ~85% even if you are well over 100 Hit

I also assumed the following
-You have no outside debuffs - if there was outside debuffs it would effect both weapons used so this may not cause too much of a swing either direction
-I built a macro that will fill in the Skills used to where you can use a skill every 1/2 second. I figured this because i was able to cause about 6 spells between each Lightning. This macro fills out the full column based on a skill priority (that you can set) as well as Firestorm ALWAYS follows Ice Storm.
-My priority was the following (This also doesn't not use Blessing of Vit, magic Shield, Resurrect, or heal so it is max dps)
1 Blessing of Might
2 Nightmare
3 Weakness
4 Ice Storm
5 Firestorm
6 Drain Life
7 Lightning
8 Frostbite

-I also have Firestorm Combo's if frozen and the base Firestorm spell hit/crit

Here are some screenshots and results with 1000xtests of 500 second tests for each Wand

If you'd like me to email you a copy of the document please PM your email address to me. It only has Blizzard Stick and MM Gemstone wand in it, but if you know a thing or two about excel you could change it.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/johnsbar/PL/Untitle2.png
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/johnsbar/PL/Untitle1.png

CosmoxKramer

02-27-2011, 09:08 PM

Oh I am wearing
55 MM helm
55 MM chest
55 Lowman's Gemstone Bracer
Fine Platinum Band of Bracery

Royce

02-27-2011, 09:19 PM

That's interesting, but I have a couple of quick thing to note. You can't set armor reduction as a percentage. Armor mitigates damage in a point to point fashion, so if your target has 25 armor, you must subtract 25 points of damage from every strike of every weapon. This is why high DPS weapons that have low damage but high speed (like the blizzard stick) are more greatly affected by target armor than slower, higher damage weapons (like the gem wands). Also did you factor in the skill damage difference? Your skills when using the gem wand do a ton more damage than with the blizzard stick (about 40 points for lightning for example).

CosmoxKramer

02-27-2011, 11:49 PM

hi Royce,

Ok, i updated the formulas quite a bit and caught a few errors in the calculation. After fixing it all i found the following results
Enemy with 60 armor (Nightmare maxed at 6) and no Archer hurts Blizzard stick
-Blizzard stick 537.7 dps
-MM Gemstone 519.0 dps
Enemy with 80 armor
-Blizzard stick 466.2 dps
-MM Gemstone 466.9 dps
Enemy with 100 armor
-Blizzard stick 394.9 dps
MM Gemstone 415.0

With a hunter, i think the 80 armor causing equal dps would be shifted closer to 110 armor.
The program may still need tweaking, but i could really use a hand from some other 'theorycrafter'

Royce

02-28-2011, 12:35 AM

I'm not sure what formula you are using, but it shouldn't even be close with a target having 80 armor. Using that amount, just calculate the effective DPS of each weapon:

Blizzard Stick (with all other gear Mega Mage) 122-146 damage, average damage 133.5, speed 0.5 (twice per second)

Gemstone Wand (with all MM) 179-224 damage, 201.5 average damage, 1.0 speed

Effective DPS against 80 armor:
Blizzard stick does 133.5 - 80 = 53.5 damage twice a second, effective DPS of 107
Gemstone wand does 201.5 - 80 = 121.5 damage once per second, effective DPS of 121.5

And that's just the weapon damage alone. When you consider that skill damage is also much higher with the gemstone wand, overall DPS (weapon and skills combined) really shouldn't be close at all. Sure for a short period of time when nightmare is active, the BS will have higher DPS, but for the same period of time, when weakness is active, the gemstone will give you the drained combo damage on 1/3 of its hits.

Edit: The damage numbers I listed are with a +5 damage ring equipped that I didn't think to remove, but that only serves to help the blizzard stick. Without the ring, BS effective DPS would drop by 10 (so 97 in the example) while GW effective DPS would only drop by 5 (so 116.5 in the example).

Xymorg

02-28-2011, 01:09 AM

The idea is fine and thought provoking, but I suspect we'll find that the best PL emulator is PL itself. I remember Physiologic going down this line of reasoning & I think he ended up with avg speed-to-clear-the-same-board-solo as the key performance indicator that encompassed all these factors you are looking to account for in your macro.

Even that approach is flawed in the sense that all it really shows is the best gear for a certain mode of play: killing stuff you can solo as fast as you can. If you like your Blizzard Stick and feel you get good results with it, don't let anyone talk you out of it, not even your own simulator. PL is sufficiently deep that we can disagree and both be partially right about choices like this.

My opinion based on the posts of Phys, Royce & others & informed by what I see in game is that when it matters most(i.e. Killing the goblin king's totem with an underpowered group) top line dmg >> dps based on weapon speed.

CosmoxKramer

02-28-2011, 08:52 AM

Hi Royce, I tried to reply last night on my phone but after typing out a long reply the box popped up saying i wasn't signed in (but i was) and then i lost everything i had typed.
A couple things, first, yes i didn improve skill damage based on the weapons. I initially unequipped my weapons completely to get a based damage with armor equipped, then i equipped them one at a time and found that the Blizzard stick give about 51 dam and MM Gemstone gives 96. Thought i just checked it this morning and somehow that modifier was removed from the damage calculation (had it in originally). so i fixed it. And you are right that in probably most cases MM is better. The place Blizz stick is better is when Armor is <about 30
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/johnsbar/PL/Untitled.png
For every 20 Armor decreased on the enemy the Blizz stick went up about 71 dps, and MM went up about 52 dps. I think most mobs are around 60-70 in the sewers right now before any debuffs. If you don't have an archer in the group you can most definitely use MM, but with a good archer that debuffs armor, Blizz stick may be better.
Xymorg- i know playing is the best emulator. I just wasn't sure why the hate for the wand because i've been using it for so long and still was pulling aggro on bosses with all 55's

CosmoxKramer

02-28-2011, 09:52 AM

If i turn off the Gemstone/Weakness combo it kills the MM wand dps too making blizz stick better. I'm not sure i would use the other wand, i think Gem Star, with the same dps but no proc over Blizzard stick

Royce

02-28-2011, 10:22 AM

Definitely if you think your weapon is working for you, feel free to go with it. I'll just make one final point. There are two primary types of combat situations you find yourself in in PvE, fighting hordes of weak mobs and fighting bosses. Against the hordes your skill damage is far more important than your weapon damage since your AOE skills can hit many targets at once, and really do most of the work of clearing for you. Against bosses, weapon DPS plays a much more significant role, but you have to remember that bosses also tend to have much higher armor.