How Damage Combos actually work.

[FluffNStuff]

I have been doing a number of tests with different classes, including combination of classes to find out exactly what a 'combo' does. A combo adds 1 extra damage roll on the enemy, and that amount of damage is the 'attackers' skill damage modifier. Now to define skill damage modifier (SDM).
All skills get a portion of their damage from the SDM. Previous to 1.6, this was not listed in the skills but it now is. It is a combination of a players base damage (damage without a weapon) plus a scaled portion of the weapon damage. The best way to test your SDM is to attack low level mobs using 'zero damage' skills. Zero damage skills are those that do not list damage, but actually cause damage, which is completely the SDM. For bears, these are beckon and crushing blow. For the bird these are the roots and and shattering scream. Unfortunately for mages there is no Zero damage skill, but you can get an idea of minimum from Ice Storm, as that would be Zero with out it. Note that your SDM is not affected by the level of any of the skills used in a the combo.
Now to clear up some possible questions:
1) When two players are doing a combo, which players SDM will the extra damage come from? A: The player that finishes the combo. So if a Mage freezes and the bear stomps, the bear's SDM will cause the extra damage. Same for the mage's SDM when a mage nature strikes roots.
2) What about for weapon combos? A: Weapon combos work the same way, and add the same SDM.
3) If I am using the Keeper staff, and then use ice to set up a ice blast from my fire storm, will hitting the mob or boss with fire from the keeper staff reduce over all damage? No, the keeper staff hitting the frozen mob will cause ice melt combo, which adds the same SDM as the ice blast from fire storm. Therefore hitting a mob or boss with ice, then keeper staff then firestorm will do the same damage as hitting the boss with ice, firestorm first, then keeper staff.

[Kossi]

Therefor

Therefore*

[Pharcyde]

I knew that melt ice and fire blast were about the same damage, so I changed my pvp combo around for it.

[Physiologic]

Yep - The Cruel Blast combo for birds is in fact 2 attacks together (appears to be a Blast Shot+normal attack or Blast Shot+Blast Shot in terms of damage) as is the Nature Strike combo for birds/mages. "Zero damage" skill seems odd to say though (even though you described it), it's more like "Damage Not Shown" skills.

Btw what do you mean when you said "All skills get a portion of their damage from the SDM. Previous to 1.6, this was not listed in the skills but it now is." I don't understand what was listed in skills?

[FluffNStuff]

I knew that melt ice and fire blast were about the same damage, so I changed my pvp combo around for it.

As long as you are still using firestorm. It just does not necessarily need to be right after ice storm.

[FluffNStuff]

Yep - The Cruel Blast combo for birds is in fact 2 attacks together (appears to be a Blast Shot+normal attack or Blast Shot+Blast Shot in terms of damage) as is the Nature Strike combo for birds/mages. "Zero damage" skill seems odd to say though (even though you described it), it's more like "Damage Not Shown" skills.

It is actually three. Best way to see it is to turn off auto attack. The first is the SDM from the DNS skill shattering scream, then is the blast shot, then another SDM which is the combo's damage.

[Pharcyde]

As long as you are still using firestorm. It just does not necessarily need to be right after ice storm.

yup, but it takes a couple seconds to set up and I usually pop the ice with my keeper staff anyways. Getting mage combo's in PvP is hard, so I set it up to maximize damage in a shorter period of time.

[Physiologic]

It is actually three. Best way to see it is to turn off auto attack. The first is the SDM from the DNS skill shattering scream, then is the blast shot, then another SDM which is the combo's damage.

Yeah, I was just talking about the 2 damage rolls seen in Cruel Blast but in the grand scheme of the entire combo Shattering Scream still does preliminary damage for 3 attacks total :p

And I edited my post and I don't think you saw this but I'll add this here too:

Btw what do you mean when you said "All skills get a portion of their damage from the SDM. Previous to 1.6, this was not listed in the skills but it now is." I don't understand what was listed in skills?

[FluffNStuff]

Yeah, I was just talking about the 2 damage rolls seen in Cruel Blast but in the grand scheme of the entire combo Shattering Scream still does preliminary damage for 3 attacks total :p

And I edited my post and I don't think you saw this but I'll add this here too:

Btw what do you mean when you said "All skills get a portion of their damage from the SDM. Previous to 1.6, this was not listed in the skills but it now is." I don't understand what was listed in skills?

Previous to 1.6, the skills were listed incorrectly, as the just listed the base skill damage, and not the actual damage the skill would do. The actual skill damage is base skill damage + SDM, this is now listed in the skill definition. Essentially the listed damage changed, but the damage the skill does did not change.

[Royce]

Are you sure about the "ice melted" thing. That text will appear after a time even if nothing is done to frozen mob once the freeze wears off. So does that mean you can simply freeze a mob doing damage and then wait for the ice to melt doing more damage? Anyway awesome stuff, thanks for sharing ;)

[FluffNStuff]

yup, but it takes a couple seconds to set up and I usually pop the ice with my keeper staff anyways. Getting mage combo's in PvP is hard, so I set it up to maximize damage in a shorter period of time.

Good point, you can use the ice melt to get the extra damage and save the fire storm for pushing back a pesky bear. Of course this is best in 'one on one', since the AOE part of firestorm is much greater then the keeper staff.

[FluffNStuff]

Are you sure about the "ice melted" thing. That text will appear after a time even if nothing is done to frozen mob once the freeze wears off. So does that mean you can simply freeze a mob doing damage and then wait for the ice to melt doing more damage? Anyway awesome stuff, thanks for sharing ;)

Something to check, and would be curious :). Just know that you get that extra SDM with the 'ice melt' combo.

[Physiologic]

Previous to 1.6, the skills were listed incorrectly, as the just listed the base skill damage, and not the actual damage the skill would do. The actual skill damage is base skill damage + SDM, this is now listed in the skill definition. Essentially the listed damage changed, but the damage the skill does did not change.

For archers too? I completely revised my skill damages in my guide from 1.6 to 1.7 and (taking into account same equips, increase in max skill rank, and increase in DEX for more damage from leveling) and the damages still correlated just the same. Which char did you witness this definition change on?

[FluffNStuff]

For archers too? I completely revised my skill damages in my guide from 1.6 to 1.7 and (taking into account same equips, increase in max skill rank, and increase in DEX for more damage from leveling) and the damages still correlated just the same. Which char did you witness this definition change on?

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?14946-Client-Update-1.6-is-live!

Under bug fixes. This was done with the '1.6' update, so it is the same from 1.6 to 1.7.

[FluffNStuff]

Are you sure about the "ice melted" thing. That text will appear after a time even if nothing is done to frozen mob once the freeze wears off. So does that mean you can simply freeze a mob doing damage and then wait for the ice to melt doing more damage? Anyway awesome stuff, thanks for sharing ;)

OK, checked again, and re-answering this. I can only get the ice melted to appear when I hit them with a fire weapon (Keepers/ Staff of Ra etc). Also, I was hoping you could check something for me. I was trying to test the reverse, by freezing mobs with a staff or wand and then fire blasting, but I could not get any to freeze. Not sure if this is a bug, but neither the ice blast staff, the ice bolt staff, and the ice bolt wand seem to be procing freeze. Let me know if you can get the 'freeze' to climb up the mob / boss with any weapon?

[Physiologic]

So nothing was changed in skill damage definition in 1.7? That's a relief :B

[mycroftxxx]

The combo is Hot Flash, not Ice Melt.

[FluffNStuff]

The combo is Hot Flash, not Ice Melt.

Firestorm + Ice = Hot Flash
Fire weapon + ice = Ice Melt

[Zerious]

OK, checked again, and re-answering this. I can only get the ice melted to appear when I hit them with a fire weapon (Keepers/ Staff of Ra etc). Also, I was hoping you could check something for me. I was trying to test the reverse, by freezing mobs with a staff or wand and then fire blasting, but I could not get any to freeze. Not sure if this is a bug, but neither the ice blast staff, the ice bolt staff, and the ice bolt wand seem to be procing freeze. Let me know if you can get the 'freeze' to climb up the mob / boss with any weapon?

I know snowball launchers do but hey have a 30% freeze rate, whereas the ice/ice-blast wands and staffs MIGHT have freeze but at a much lower rate...or no freeze at all...

as for ice melt SDM, I think the modifier itself is the same, but consider the fire weapon's damage. If the modifier amplifies the damage of the combo-finishing move, then whether it's a skill or weapon doesn't matter. Whatever the damage of the skill or weapon that causes the combo, is the damage to be amplified...

hope that made a bit of sense... paraphrase anyone? lol

[FluffNStuff]

I know snowball launchers do but hey have a 30% freeze rate, whereas the ice/ice-blast wands and staffs MIGHT have freeze but at a much lower rate...or no freeze at all...

as for ice melt SDM, I think the modifier itself is the same, but consider the fire weapon's damage. If the modifier amplifies the damage of the combo-finishing move, then whether it's a skill or weapon doesn't matter. Whatever the damage of the skill or weapon that causes the combo, is the damage to be amplified...

hope that made a bit of sense... paraphrase anyone? lol

The damage on the SDM is unrelated to skill or weapon being used to cause the combo. The SDM part is the same for a fire staff on ice storm, firestorm on ice storm, fire staff on icebolt, fire storm on ice bolt.
Note, the SDM is the 'total' of the combo extra hit. It does not amplify or change for that part.

[Zerious]

so the SDM is the extra damage caused by the combo?

[Physiologic]

so the SDM is the extra damage caused by the combo?

It's a portion of the damage in the total skill damage. I think when he says:


A combo adds 1 extra damage roll on the enemy, and that amount of damage is the 'attackers' skill damage modifier

He meant "that amount of damage UTILIZES the 'attackers' skill damage modifier"

edit: Fluff, I think they removed the "zero damage"/"no damage listed" because I just had the time to check it out and Shattering Scream and Thorn Root did in fact list damages. Not sure about mages/bears.

[FluffNStuff]

It's a portion of the damage in the total skill damage. I think when he says:



He meant "that amount of damage UTILIZES the 'attackers' skill damage modifier"

edit: Fluff, I think they removed the "zero damage"/"no damage listed" because I just had the time to check it out and Shattering Scream and Thorn Root did in fact list damages. Not sure about mages/bears.

Correct, the extra damage from the combo comes from the SDM. Can't check bird right now, but beckon and crushing blow are still not listing any damage on the skills. But as we know, there are a lot of things skills do that are not, or are incorrectly listed. Like super mega slash has a 10 point armor reduction it.