Why I'm Liking My Bird Less and Less

[Turkster]

I don't even like to play PvE that much on my bird anymore due to the amount of potions I use. My gear has little to no regen on it, and I'm constantly restocking my pots. At first I didn't mind, but now its starting to wear on me. Then I get on my mage and I use practically no potions because I have over 20 M/S and H/S. Now I'm thinking to myself, why play the bird in PvE at all? I save so much more money playing my mage.

Also, in PvP, if I kill 3-4 people in a row with my bird then I'm completely oom (out of mana); and even if I have full hp from regen or heals, I'm a sitting duck with no mana.
With my mage this wouldn't be a problem because of his great health AND mana regen.
From my experience, mages can kill just as well as birds (mages seem much harder to kill now than pre 1.7 but maybe that's just me), but they also have muuch more longevity through regen.

Haven't played my bear in a while so I'm not sure how they play into all
this.

Thoughts? Comments?

[Zeus]

I don't even like to play PvE that much on my bird anymore due to the amount of potions I use. My gear has little to no regen on it, and I'm constantly restocking my pots. At first I didn't mind, but now its starting to wear on me. Then I get on my mage and I use practically no potions because I have over 20 M/S and H/S. Now I'm thinking to myself, why play the bird in PvE at all? I save so much more money playing my mage.

Also, in PvP, if I kill 3-4 people in a row with my bird then I'm completely oom (out of mana); and even if I have full hp from regen or heals, I'm a sitting duck with no mana.
With my mage this wouldn't be a problem because of his great health AND mana regen.
From my experience, mages can kill just as well as birds (mages seem much harder to kill now than pre 1.7 but maybe that's just me), but they also have muuch more longevity through regen.

Haven't played my bear in a while so I'm not sure how they play into all
this.

Thoughts? Comments?


Bears play great, very little pot consumption because most of their skills are stuns, so you are basically just tanking the boss. Not to mention its FUN to play a bear because you get the feeling that you are keeping your entire team alive.

[Echelong]

Yep mana is a problem for birds. But if you are OOM and you have killed 3 or 4 players then you are doing really good. As for mages been harder now? they haven't received any buff only bears with their combo and a few other things.

Devs could help this with cutting down the amount of mana it takes to cast skills on pvp.

[Royce]

Do you use meditation? It's pretty significant mana regen. Restore is terrible, but I really don't see how birds should ever be complaining about gear without mana regen.

[Moogerfooger]

If you play your bird PvE with a Sentinel Talon set, especially if you add the right ring, your pot/defense concerns are vastly minimized. That is why you see a lot of birds in the Sewers with Sentinel Talons/Wings. Still decent DPS, great armor, good regen. Even a mix of the cheaper Henchman's set and Sentinel gear provides for solid defense and some regen and excellent damage if you prefer a bow.

EDIT: As Royce mentioned, Meditation should be maxed to lvl 6 if it is not.

[Kujen]

Yeah I never put a single point in meditation but I'm definitely considering it now. I'm constantly spamming health and mana pots in the sewers and I hate that. My bird feels squishier than my int mage..I'll often switch to talon/shield but I wish I could use my bow more...there's never a taunting bear when you need one.

[Lesrider]

I think meditation needs to do more. I use it and also run out of mana fast.

[Tengotengo]

There's a guide that says to not waste time on med/restore, to which I say B.S. Max meditate and have a few in restore at least. I've got the push attack at 1, and I'm thinking if I respec I'll drop the other attack that isn't the range one to 2 or 3.

For the record, I'm really really wanting to respec to a dual-spec STR bird so I can wear some of that ridiculous h/regen gear, and load out to cyber (or sentinel when I finally complete it) at bosses. A lot of it is cheap in the CS too.

[Kindread]

Is Meditation really worth it? I can't imagine dropping one of my other skills to get Meditation. Granted I haven't tried any PvP yet. I've been loving the PvE content that PvPs gotten placed on the backburner. But seeing as all the new sewers gear lacks mama regen, I might have to respec and try out maxed meditation.

[Turkster]

No I don't use meditation or restore because I like to maximize my offensive skills for PvP. Maybe if they had a dual spec system I'd use med and restore in PvE...but they don't and I'm not gonna spend plat to switch between PvE and PvP skill setups.

And as for wearing lvl 50 gear, that waters down your dps soo much. I don't like seeing lvl 55 birds in lvl 50 gear because they're dps is a good ~60 or more points below mine. That's significant.

[Turkster]

Do you use meditation? It's pretty significant mana regen. Restore is terrible, but I really don't see how birds should ever be complaining about gear without mana regen.

Like I said in the post above, meditation is not a skill you waste
points on for PvP

[Physiologic]

Ok. I already did all the math before but I never published it, so here it is. Meditation is useless.


Meditation (unlocked at lv 10)
Explanation: Increases your inherent mana regeneration rate for 3 seconds.

Lv 1: 10 mana, 45.5 sec. cool-down, self-target
3 sec. buff, +12 mana regen rate
Lv 2: 10 mana, 45.5 sec. cool-down, self-target
3 sec. buff, +16 mana regen rate
Lv 3: 10 mana, 45.5 sec. cool-down, self-target
3 sec. buff, +20 mana regen rate
Lv 4: 10 mana, 45.5 sec. cool-down, self-target
3 sec. buff, +24 mana regen rate
Lv 5: 10 mana, 45.5 sec. cool-down, self-target
3 sec. buff, +28 mana regen rate
Lv 6: 10 mana, 45.5 sec. cool-down, self-target
3 sec. buff, +32 mana regen rate

I never got level 6 meditation so I'm guessing that's the level 6 stats. If it's wrong I'll be more than happy to redo the math.

Ok, so in PvE lv 53-56 runs at some sewer map takes ~5 minutes to complete. If you have max meditation (a total of 96 mana restored in 3 seconds with 45.5 second cool-down) you are able to cast it 6.59 times (6 times rounded down because you can't case it 6.59 times exactly). 6 casts of 96 mana restoration is 576 mana restored in an average 5 minute run in the sewers.

Ellie the Enchantress sells the cheapest potions in bulk, 100 potions for 1500 gold; that's 1 potion for 15 gold. 1 mana potion heals roughly 30% of my archer's mana (500 mana max) which is 150 mana. 576 mana restored from 1 5 minute sewer run is 3.84 potions saved. 3.84 potions saved x 15 gold is 57.6 gold saved per run using max meditation.

Again, you save 57.6 gold per run when you use the most amount of maxed level Meditation you can possible use in a 5-minute sewer run. If you ran sewers for, let's say, 500 times you save a measly 28,800 gold.

Are you seriously going to max meditation - again, a USELESS skill in PvE - for 57.6 gold per run? Or are you going to put those points into something more useful, let's say, something that'll help your entire party out via damage/debuffs?

edit: Oh and don't get me started on how much gold you "save" if you were to waste points on Restore. It's not as bad as Meditation, but it's still pretty bad.

[Moogerfooger]

Lol....I knew you would have a through analysis. It has nothing to do with gold, just find it more useful than putting points into thorn wall or restore, for PvE.

I have all offensive skills except Avian Scream (blah) and blinding shot (lvl 5) maxed...yet still have meditation at 6 along with dodge, thorn root, focus, evasion. 0 in thorn wall (I found it useless) and restore (likewise, as I rarely PvP).

[Physiologic]

Thorn Wall deals roughly 250-300 damage per enemy with good equips (the description is completely wrong, it doesn't do "16 target damage per second") AND stops enemies in their tracks. It's the best AoE (aside from Cruel Shot combo) that a bird has, plus with an enchantress it does double her lightning attack w/ Nature Strike combo (plus debuffs, which I forgot exactly).

[StompArtist]

Lol....I knew you would have a through analysis. It has nothing to do with gold, just find it more useful than putting points into thorn wall or restore, for PvE.

I have all offensive skills except Avian Scream (blah) and blinding shot (lvl 5) maxed...yet still have meditation at 6 along with dodge, thorn root, focus, evasion. 0 in thorn wall (I found it useless) and restore (likewise, as I rarely PvP).

Thorn wall is one of the better skills. You sure you are not referring to thorn root?

[Moogerfooger]

Thorn Wall deals roughly 250-300 damage per enemy with good equips (the description is completely wrong, it doesn't do "16 target damage per second") AND stops enemies in their tracks. It's the best AoE (aside from Cruel Shot combo) that a bird has, plus with an enchantress it does double her lightning attack w/ Nature Strike combo (plus debuffs, which I forgot exactly).

I thought the Nature Strike was with Thorn Root, not wall (oops, shoulda paid more attention)....but I didn't know that in regards to the 'misleading' description.

Looks like time for a skills respec :D

May a rabid beserker squirrel visit your underwear. While you are wearing them.

[Moogerfooger]

Thorn wall is one of the better skills. You sure you are not referring to thorn root?

Well thorn root is a must as well, to pull off the archer combo. Guess I need both and have been blissfully ignorant of an added attack I could be using.

[Turkster]

WOW. its sad that some birds are such noobs. But I guess you'll find that in any game you play.

[StompArtist]

WOW. its sad that some birds are such noobs. But I guess you'll find that in any game you play.

Ok... Well why not explain all there is to know about birds?

[Moogerfooger]

WOW. its sad that some birds are such noobs. But I guess you'll find that in any game you play.

Wow, it's sad that trolls are on the forum. I come here to learn what I could be missing and have learned a ton as I was a casual player for a long time, now run along and go back to your cave.

By the way, the Sentinel 50 sets have excellent crit that makes up for the lack of DPS compared to the 55 gear. Not to mention the Sentinel Talon/Wing set does 250+ DPS, has 120 + armor with the right ring, and excellent regen as a bonus. One could say that the added crit from some of the Sentinel gear makes up for the lower DPS. Just another way to look at it.

[Physiologic]

Nature Strike works with both Thorn Root and Thorn Wall :p But yeah, I don't know when they'll change the description because it makes the skill look really horrible (no one cares about 16 damage per second). Try out max Thorn Wall yourself - you'll see 250-300 damage on every single enemy you successfully hit.


WOW. its sad that some birds are such noobs. But I guess you'll find that in any game you play.

Instead of calling people noobs you can help them out, I've had points in Restore/Meditation before too during my first week of PL playing until someone said that I was better off maxing some other skill to be more damage-efficient (whoever and wherever you are, thank you very much).

[Moogerfooger]

Nature Strike works with both Thorn Root and Thorn Wall :p But yeah, I don't know when they'll change the description because it makes the skill look really horrible (no one cares about 16 damage per second). Try out max Thorn Wall yourself - you'll see 250-300 damage on every single enemy you successfully hit.

Sweet, I will do that as soon as I escape corporate hell for the day. Thanks for the heads up. Death train running tonight?

[Royce]

You can't make the argument that meditation is useless because you can buy pots instead, and then complain about lack of regen on gear. I'm sorry but that's insane. By the same logic, regen on gear is a total waste, so you should complain about gear that has regen. Since you can just spam pots, you'd be better off with those gear stats going to Crit, or damage or anything else.

[Moogerfooger]

You can't make the argument that meditation is useless because you can buy pots instead, and then complain about lack of regen on gear. I'm sorry but that's insane. By the same logic, regen on gear is a total waste, so you should complain about gear that has regen. Since you can just spam pots, you'd be better off with those gear stats going to Crit, or damage or anything else.

Oooh, do I sense a cage match brewing? :P

[Physiologic]

Sweet, I will do that as soon as I escape corporate hell for the day. Thanks for the heads up. Death train running tonight?

Yep most likely :) Need to hit 56 soon.


You can't make the argument that meditation is useless because you can buy pots instead, and then complain about lack of regen on gear. I'm sorry but that's insane. By the same logic, regen on gear is a total waste, so you should complain about gear that has regen. Since you can just spam pots, you'd be better off with those gear stats going to Crit, or damage or anything else.

Huh?? I never complained about lack of regen on gear...and I claimed meditation to be useless in comparison to other skills and inefficient gold saving. And yes, crit/damage is still the number one priority for bird gear stats.

[Turkster]

srry just havin a bad day. immature of me, I know.

[Royce]

Huh?? I never complained about lack of regen on gear...and I claimed meditation to be useless in terms of other skills and inefficient gold saving. And yes, crit/damage is still the number one priority for bird gear stats.

All I'm saying is this thread is a discussion of the lack of regen on BS Dex gear. If you miss regen, there is a simple solution. You have skills you can use for that. Anyone who agrees with your point (which I am not saying is a bad one) would also be logically committed to regen on gear also being a waste ;)

[StompArtist]

srry just havin a bad day. immature of me, I know.

No worries.

[Physiologic]

Oh my post was not directed at the OP at all, it was for the posts that claimed Meditation to be useful, even to the point where sacrificing other skills for it was warranted :p

[Moogerfooger]

Oh my post was not directed at the OP at all, it was for the posts that claimed Meditation to be useful, even to the point where sacrificing other skills for it was warranted :p

That description of thorn wall threw me...I knew about the root angle of it, but not that it also triggered Nature Strike, and especially about the dmage factor. Shame on me.

Anyway...if the Death Train is running and I am on, I would like to test out my new shiny skillz yo.

[Turkster]

http://i1200.photobucket.com/albums/bb332/turkster94355/a07b7389.jpg

Thorn wall can crit too. I hit 3 crits (474, 475 and 459) using only thornwall.

[Aerospacegod]

The should let you switch to Mage for 100 plat or something.

[Physiologic]

Every single archer skill can crit :)

[Royce]

Every single archer skill can crit :)

Not true. Meditation and Restore can't ;)

[Physiologic]

Not true. Meditation and Restore can't ;)

Ah you know what I meant!

[WhoIsThis]

Thorn Wall deals roughly 250-300 damage per enemy with good equips (the description is completely wrong, it doesn't do "16 target damage per second") AND stops enemies in their tracks. It's the best AoE (aside from Cruel Shot combo) that a bird has, plus with an enchantress it does double her lightning attack w/ Nature Strike combo (plus debuffs, which I forgot exactly).

Well, lightning does have a secondary effect - armor debuff. I can't recall, but I suspect that nature strike may make it more potent.

I haven't been playing my bird very much recently, as I'm focusing on getting all quests done and levelling my mage, but having a bird around is still pretty useful. Anejeden - I've seen you play, you're fine with bird; birds can hold their own just fine still.

[Turkster]

Yea they can definitely hold their own and put out tons of damage. I'm just starting to prefer to play my mage over my bird because of all the regen. And I'm not willing to downgrade my bird's equipment (sacrifice dps for regen)

[KingFu]

Yea they can definitely hold their own and put out tons of damage. I'm just starting to prefer to play my mage over my bird because of all the regen. And I'm not willing to downgrade my bird's equipment (sacrifice dps for regen)

Have you considered trying int bird? I hear theyr unimaginably squishy;)

[WhoIsThis]

If you want to, consider buying a ring for mana regen. It won't regen as much and you'll lose out on a DPS ring, but still, it may be worth it if you feel so strongly about this.

[Zeus]

Have you considered trying int bird? I hear theyr unimaginably squishy;)

Actually... I have a sneaking suspicion int bird may actually be LESS squishy now then a pure dex bird considering neither has very much dodge anymore, int bird has slightly less armor (5 points less at most). But... It makes up for it by awesome regen

[KingFu]

Actually... I have a sneaking suspicion int bird may actually be LESS squishy now then a pure dex bird considering neither has very much dodge anymore, int bird has slightly less armor (5 points less at most). But... It makes up for it by awesome regen

Meh, idc, they look stupid with arrows on their back whle carrying a staff:p

[Zeus]

Meh, idc, they look stupid with arrows on their back whle carrying a staff:p

Actually... I believe it's just a quiver :). An empty one at that too.

[Palyna]

Meh, idc, they look stupid with arrows on their back whle carrying a staff:p

hahaha! i saw one before. bird carrying staff is quite cute.

[Royce]

Meh, idc, they look stupid with arrows on their back whle carrying a staff:p

But they need that quiver ;) The shot skills still use an arrow, so we are forced to assume archers always carry a pocket bow of some sort. You can see the arrows fly no matter what weapon they are using, and it's the only way ranged damage skills make sense for a Str bird.

[adwin]

Well, I have a similar problem to the OP.
I'm a lvl 39, 80% dex 20% str bird (have to respec), and it's nearly useless in AO/higher.
I'm wearing the best gear I could get for that level, but it's not really helping. Any tips would be appreciated.
Here's my gear:
Sniper's Scorpion Helm [pink]
Shivering Frozen Bow [pink]
Scorpion Leather of Finesse [purple]

btw, does ATTACK stat influence damage?

Here are my stats:
http://i51.tinypic.com/9aoms3.png

[Physiologic]

Are you having problems with survivability? You may want to switch to a Swamp talon and wing if you are. AO will always be hard to any bird less than lv 45-50 because armor will always be a problem.

Not sure what you mean by ATTACK stat, elaborate?

[adwin]

Are you having problems with survivability? You may want to switch to a Swamp talon and wing if you are. AO will always be hard to any bird less than lv 45-50 because armor will always be a problem.

Not sure what you mean by ATTACK stat, elaborate?

1: I was thinking about switching to a talon, damage or even DPS would go down, but I could equip a shield to boost survivability as well as reduce pot usage.
2: I apologise, I was thinking about 2 things at the same time lol.
What I meant was this: Most ppl are making archers pure-dex, but does upping the STR stat (points from levelling up) also affect overall damage?

[Physiologic]

1: I was thinking about switching to a talon, damage or even DPS would go down, but I could equip a shield to boost survivability as well as reduce pot usage.
2: I apologise, I was thinking about 2 things at the same time lol.
What I meant was this: Most ppl are making archers pure-dex, but does upping the STR stat (points from levelling up) also affect overall damage?

It's perfectly fine switching to a talon/wing at that point; I've done it plenty of times too in the past despite the lower damage.

You can look here (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?16244-Comprehensive-Archer-Skills-and-Equipment-Guide) for a more detailed explanation of how attributes work in PL. With more STR you'll have more armor but you won't do nearly as much skill damage than a full DEX bird will do. STR will increase your base damage but it will be detrimental to your skill damage. I for one am an advocate of being a full DEX bird because you do what you do best as an archer, which is dealing out damage.

[WhoIsThis]

+1

I wouldn't recommend making warbird. You are trading quite a bit of damage for what is a slightly durable character. Best effective damage output is best done with pure dex at this point.

Upping the strength does indeed improve weapon DPS (as does upping int), but not as much as upping dex would.

[adwin]

@Physiologic: I read your FAQs. Excellent work (are you working in any department responsible for documentation?)

I guess I have all the info I need at this point, and I guess it all comes down to personal preference.
Another reason I posted was because quite often, I'm the one who gets aggro'd; everybody is waiting for someone else to make a move (especially for bosses), which should be a bear's job (which is also a problem if you're in a party without a bear in it).
What I also noticed was a lot of ppl playing PL, who are not really familiar with role management.
You're a mage, fulfill your role. Instead of that, most of the time everybody's rushing just to show how much damage they can deal.
This tendency sometimes gets better, but more and more players get powerlevelled and thus don't get the experience to fulfill their role while being at a higher level... Sad but true.

[Physiologic]

There's a lot of players that don't know what they're doing, but there's a lot of players that do - it takes time to figure out which players are the ones that know exactly what to do as a bird/mage/bear and those players usually end up on my friendlist :)

And no, I don't do any of this sort of in my job, but when I was an intern back in college I've had experience in data collecting, critically analyzing, and presenting information to a large group of peers (namely scary physicians, pharmacists, and nurses). So I try to be as meticulous as possible with such results, even beyond the scope of my practice.

[adwin]

And no, I don't do any of this sort of in my job, but when I was an intern back in college I've had experience in data collecting, critically analyzing, and presenting information to a large group of peers (namely scary physicians, pharmacists, and nurses). So I try to be as meticulous as possible with such results, even beyond the scope of my practice.

You're doing an excellent job.
When I was in Uni., my assignments were at least mini-theses and since I'm a science graduate, this had to have a particular structure, presentation etc.
I didn't escape this when I started working, lol.
"it takes one to know one" - I'm always reading a FAQ or tutorial, but your posts showed particular characteristics, which is why I decided to ask.

In any case, sorry guys for the OT. ;]

[jakbat]

why can't they just give us some higher damage weapons for us archers?

[Moogerfooger]

why can't they just give us some higher damage weapons for us archers?

You're joking, right?

[davidis57]

henchman gives high attack but no critical, drainers gives you Dodge and armor, bagman is high critical but low armor, underling gives good critical and m/s regen . Trapps and gutters not sure about those. My point is mix and match and use till you can afford sewer king or get to drop. I mix underling and drainers so I don't have waste pots.

[Frenzyn]

I don't even like to play PvE that much on my bird anymore due to the amount of potions I use. My gear has little to no regen on it, and I'm constantly restocking my pots. At first I didn't mind, but now its starting to wear on me. Then I get on my mage and I use practically no potions because I have over 20 M/S and H/S. Now I'm thinking to myself, why play the bird in PvE at all? I save so much more money playing my mage.

Also, in PvP, if I kill 3-4 people in a row with my bird then I'm completely oom (out of mana); and even if I have full hp from regen or heals, I'm a sitting duck with no mana.
With my mage this wouldn't be a problem because of his great health AND mana regen.
From my experience, mages can kill just as well as birds (mages seem much harder to kill now than pre 1.7 but maybe that's just me), but they also have muuch more longevity through regen.

Haven't played my bear in a while so I'm not sure how they play into all
this.

Thoughts? Comments?
Just wondering - If mana is your big problem, you should probly max out your mana restore to 6.
It gives you +32 m/s for 3 seconds. it takes 30 seconds to respawn tho, but mana isn't a huge concern at lvl 50+ because ive seen body pieces with 8h/s and 8m/s.
Else, you probly button smash and don't know how to use evenly and combo right, so you end up using more mana because you arn't using combos for less mana with more damage. :)
Hope this helped.

[Ciphor]

Or just go warbird. They custom tailored fury set for birds and mages. 30 mana regen baby.