Aggro/Taunt theories.

[Ellyidol]

Since taunt or aggro control doesn't seem to ALWAYS work (it works at times), I've been trying to figure out what actually gives you aggro and how taunt helps.

These are just theories.

Fixed variables in these cases are:

1) I use my bear.
2) I'm on a damage elixir unless stated otherwise.
3) Aggro/taunt test on Gold Fever alone.

Case 1:

Bears : Just me.
Gear : Full Fury/DPS/2H.
Damage Elixir : On

Aggro: Yes, always with me, no matter what kind of gear I'm using.


Case 2:

Bears : 2
Gear : DPS/2H
Damage Elixir : On

Aggro: Yes, even if I DON'T spam taunt while the other bear does. The other bear is usually in a shield set. Even if they use a hammer set, I have my damage elixir over them.

Case 3:

Bears : 2
Gear : Both identical (Both shield set/2H)
Damage Elixir : OFF

Aggro: When we both taunt, it seems to nullify the aggro. When one of us taunts, aggro goes to that person. When neither of us have aggro, it goes to the next highest DPS.


Conclusion:

Taunt seems to act like an additional DPS factor to gain aggro. This was taken from my bear getting aggro on a damage pot and full DPS set from a tanking bear spamming taunt. I.e. my DPS was higher than his DPS+Taunt.

I don't know whats up with the multiple taunts on the target and it being nullified. I have no idea what causes it to do so. Its usually obvious when it happens since GF just jumps around from player to player, and throwing bombs at anyone instead of just the tanks.

I'm also assuming that with GF, these same things happen to any other boss too.

These are just theories based on experience, I have no guarantee whatsoever that they're actually right. :) I wanted to see how its working for you guys, so I can understand it more too.


EDIT and UPDATE:

Physiologic, Mysticaldream, and I were testing aggro and taunt on low level bosses to see how stuff works.

In conclusion, (all are hypothetical btw, none are proven until actual testing and data taken)

Each mob has an aggro value.

Lets say a certain mob has an aggro value of 100. Taunt allows a bear to get aggro by reaching that value straight away, but is reset almost immediately. So the mob is attacking you, but any damage/DPS caused to the mob afterwards will switch aggro to whoever attacked. This is IF the bear isn't doing anything at all, no damage dealt.

Our tests were, my bear taunting a boss, therefore getting aggro.

Cruel Blast Combo took aggro.
Nature Strike Combo took aggro.

Lightning alone took combo.

Normal attack took combo.

And eventually, a punch from a pure int mage took combo.

But on another boss, it took 2 consecutive normal attacks to get enough DPS, therefore aggro.

So in short:

1. Each mob has an aggro value.

2. Taunt only gives you "enough" threat to make mob switch to you.

3. To sustain aggro, you need to be dealing damage/DPS to keep your aggro value high enough to keep mob on you. (Taunt aggro + your dps).

4. Heal/debuffs from mages DO NOT gain aggro.

5. Taunt MAY have different aggro values at each level. ie level 1 taunt gets 10, 2 gives 20, etc.

6. Mobs aggro value's increase with level, and bosses have different aggro values. (Like how one bear can keep aggro on boss even with more DPS from members).


There's no actual way to know these values unless each mob is tested, sorry not going that far :P

Will edit if ever there's new observations or theories.

[Baked-Potato]

I like where this is going. If you need/want another bear with Rift/Hate to help with some research and testing, add me. IGN: Xenile

[Ellyidol]

Thanks! I'll remember :)

I'm just basing these on fixed games for testing and some experiences from random games with random bears.

[KingFu]

The one factor that could prove some of this wrong is that taunt it dodge-able. So it is hard to learn every aspect of it since in pve there isn't a fair way to test it without everyone attacking, and it doesn't act anything more than a buff in pvp.

[Physiologic]

Perfect example was today When you used taunt and there was another bear in the party. I thornwalled, cruel blast comboed and then boom I died from 10 goblins aggroing me. I thought taunt would guarantee 100% aggro when a bear uses it despite me attacking..so confused. Perhaps the second bear thing does indeed mess everything up.

[Ellyidol]

Oh right true. Thats also one of the questions I have,

Does a ! on top of a mob mean that taunt actually got them? (Not dodged). Or does it mean that they're just in range of taunt.

IMO, Taunt should just be straightforward, AoE aggro 100%, no misses, no questions asked who gets aggro.

[Ellyidol]

Perfect example was today When you used taunt and there was another bear in the party. I thornwalled, cruel blast comboed and then boom I died from 10 goblins aggroing me. I thought taunt would guarantee 100% aggro when a bear uses it despite me attacking..so confused. Perhaps the second bear thing does indeed mess everything up.

Yup I remember that. It works on mobs too, it was just easier to test on GF alone since it actually lives long enough to notice.

Whenever I'm the only bear in the group, the aggro actually stays on me and you get to use your combo's too.

[KingFu]

Hmm, not sure on that, I believe it means you successfully got aggro via taunt, but it also just may mean the aggro was switched to another character/player.

Heh, idk, devs have said skills no longer have a hit chance of 100% (given your hit% is over 100 I believe) not sure if I agree with you on that or not:)

[Physiologic]

Hmm, not sure on that, I believe it means you successfully got aggro via taunt, but it also just may mean the aggro was switched to another character/player.

Heh, idk, devs have said skills no longer have a hit chance of 100% (given your hit% is over 100 I believe) not sure if I agree with you on that or not:)

Despite the dodge factor, the strange thing was even when Elly/other bear taunted the enemies and they were aiming at him, as soon as I comboed they switched aggros to me, so this could be a matter beyond dodge. I don't know too much about bear skills but I was under the impression that if taunt worked, it wouldn't matter if other players damaged the taunted enemies, the bear would still have lock on them.

[KingFu]

I know that cruel blast has a high percentage (if not 100%) of chance that it'll draw aggro. I think it works pretty basic without bringing in the numbers. Taunt works like any other skill (outside of buffs) it can miss, or be dodged. The taunt works like the skill name is:p it taunts the enemy and intimidates them into trying to kill you first since you appear as the biggest threat (if that makes sense lol) if another character gives a heavy nuke, then they appear as a bigger threat, and the aggro switches.

Edit:

Just read through that and it is kinda rambling and hard to follow. I gotta stop going on forums before I go to bed:p

[Baked-Potato]

Despite the dodge factor, the strange thing was even when Elly/other bear taunted the enemies and they were aiming at him, as soon as I comboed they switched aggros to me, so this could be a matter beyond dodge. I don't know too much about bear skills but I was under the impression that if taunt worked, it wouldn't matter if other players damaged the taunted enemies, the bear would still have lock on them.

In some cases where Taunt actually gains the Bear aggro, when someone combos/attacks with a very high DPS, the aggro is switched to them. IMO, I believe that if Taunt gains aggro, it should sustain for an X amount of seconds, so even if other party members attack and combo, the aggro is still on the Bear.

[Physiologic]

I know that cruel blast has a high percentage (if not 100%) of chance that it'll draw aggro. I think it works pretty basic without bringing in the numbers. Taunt works like any other skill (outside of buffs) it can miss, or be dodged. The taunt works like the skill name is:p it taunts the enemy and intimidates them into trying to kill you first since you appear as the biggest threat (if that makes sense lol) if another character gives a heavy nuke, then they appear as a bigger threat, and the aggro switches.

Edit:

Just read through that and it is kinda rambling and hard to follow. I gotta stop going on forums before I go to bed:p

Wow that's strange - does this work with other combos as well do you think? Like Nature Strike would draw full aggro to a mage?


In some cases where Taunt actually gains the Bear aggro, when someone combos/attacks with a very high DPS, the aggro is switched to them. IMO, I believe that if Taunt gains aggro, it should sustain for an X amount of seconds, so even if other party members attack and combo, the aggro is still on the Bear.

The thing is, when Elly is the only bear in the party and we're fighting Goldfever, I usually grab a damage orb right before it and I know that I'm dishing out major damage/DPS, but Goldfever is still fixated on him. I'm wondering if another bear were there, would Goldfever target me (I forgot if Gold did that during our 2 bear run)?

[KingFu]

That's what I'm guessing. I don't think it works with debuffs though, only heavy damage bringing combos. I'm not too familiar with nature strike. What does it do exactly?

[Physiologic]

Nature Strike does
Thorn Wall damage + Mage's lightning damage x 2 + some debuff that I forgot

It's extremely damaging, almost if not more damaging than Cruel Blast...

[Ellyidol]

So with the confirmation that high damage combo's actually switch aggro, it seems to make sense that aggro only gives a certain amount of DPS dealt (without actual damage being dealt) which gives us the aggro for the time.

If they can do that with taunt (adding aggro through a no-damage DPS skill), they should be able to add more aggro to the skills of bears so that we can generate more aggro then?

[Physiologic]

We can test this out at Skeller Krunch or something right now (the combo thing). I'm hopping on now.

edit: Happy 800 posts to me :)

[KingFu]

I'll get on too if ya need me:) Heres the thing though. Is it high DPS, high damage, or both that gains aggro?

[Ellyidol]

Alright getting on now :)

[Ellyidol]

Physiologic, Mysticaldream and I did some testing.

Updated and edited first post, the ending part. :)

[jiroununu]

very well explained.
For my experience, bear taunt works similiar as taunt in WOW. It gives u 1-2 second to gain aggro from the highest DAMAGE OUTPUTER onto u. After that, if u don't become the new highest damage outputer in the aggro list, boss will still attack the previous one(normally full dex bird). And taunt does miss too(based on your hit rate). Because normally boss has a higher dodge rate than the mobs, so taunt will miss a lot during boss fight than facing mobs.
I think that's why u feel whenever how i taunt, boss still attacks bird because most tank bear only has 85 hit rate, and most your taunt missed.
Unfortunatley, PL doesn't give bear another skill to increase aggro like WOW(break armor, revenge, etc,etc.), so it is actually very hard for a bear to fully gain aggro from boss without a damage pot. all we can do is just taunt, slash try to stun boss, and beckon boss to another corner and stomp to allow a few more seconds stun and repeating above.

[Ellyidol]

very well explained.
For my experience, bear taunt works similiar as taunt in WOW. It gives u 1-2 second to gain aggro from the highest DAMAGE OUTPUTER onto u. After that, if u don't become the new highest damage outputer in the aggro list, boss will still attack the previous one(normally full dex bird). And taunt does miss too(based on your hit rate). Because normally boss has a higher dodge rate than the mobs, so taunt will miss a lot during boss fight than facing mobs.
I think that's why u feel whenever how i taunt, boss still attacks bird because most tank bear only has 85 hit rate, and most your taunt missed.
Unfortunatley, PL doesn't give bear another skill to increase aggro like WOW(break armor, revenge, etc,etc.), so it is actually very hard for a bear to fully gain aggro from boss without a damage pot. all we can do is just taunt, slash try to stun boss, and beckon boss to another corner and stomp to allow a few more seconds stun and repeating above.

This is true. But 100% of the time, when I'm the only bear, I can tank bosses with aggro on me all the time.

I don't know why, birds with damage orb/elixir don't get aggro taken away from me. But thats just one bear though, when another one comes in, we both lose aggro.

[jiroununu]

in that case, i believe some of the bear skills generate extra aggro. Because we do far less damage than dex bird or int mage, not even half. If aggro calculate with only damage output, there's no way bear can hold aggro for long. And fact is, we can tank boss with aggro on bear only most of the time.
And nice ellyidol, i can't keep aggro on me for long if a dex bird had a damage pot :p

[KingFu]

Here are some similar/other theories I thought of.

1) Aggro will stay with the tank as long as he tanks and delivers damage.

2) Two tanks taunting cancel each other out.

[Ellyidol]

in that case, i believe some of the bear skills generate extra aggro. Because we do far less damage than dex bird or int mage, not even half. If aggro calculate with only damage output, there's no way bear can hold aggro for long. And fact is, we can tank boss with aggro on bear only most of the time.
And nice ellyidol, i can't keep aggro on me for long if a dex bird had a damage pot :p

I think thats true also, especially when you say some bear skills have more generated aggro.

This is proven from when I go 2H and damage pot on a boss, but don't use taunt. I still end up getting aggro vs a tank bear who's taunting and damaging at the same time.

And thanks, but I'm usually on the damage pot too :P

[WhoIsThis]

From experience, hot flash from a pure int mage will also alone draw aggro - often even if the bear casts taunt right after it. It seems to me that the bears need to do substantial DPS on top of their taunting in order to gain aggro.

I've also seen high burst damage gaining aggro. One unintentional test: Myself and a bird decided to fight the trash heap because everyone else decided to leave:

- Bird casts break armor, cruel blast, thorn root, blinding shot, and thorn wall. (Focus and evade were casted, plus a buff from my blessings)
- I cast armor debuff, drain life, lightning, hot flash, and frostbite. (Both blessings were active)

I gained aggro, at which point the bird promptly used repulse to push the target back.

Another time in the Hideout, I cast the same combo, which this time it was with a bear against gold fever. Bear beckoned, I think he cast crushing blow, then casted super mega smash, then crippling strike, then stomped. Finally, after both of our combos were completed the bear casted taunt. I still gained aggro. (Bear was using rage and iron blood, plus my 2 blessings). At that point, 2 other people rushed in after deciding that Gold Fever was worth doing and I can't remember what happened after save that we did managed to kill gold fever (one person left).



I think that taunt just helps boost aggro - it won't work miracles by itself unless a bear does noticeable damage - maybe not to the level that a bird can do to one target, but still a lot.

[Royce]

If heal doesn't affect aggro, then that's a change. It use to pull mobs like crazy. I assumed they just reduced the effect at some point, but it's possible they eliminated it altogether I suppose.

[Ellyidol]

If heal doesn't affect aggro, then that's a change. It use to pull mobs like crazy. I assumed they just reduced the effect at some point, but it's possible they eliminated it altogether I suppose.

Its possible that they only made heal prone to aggro in the higher levels, as the testing was only done in low levels. :)

[krazii]

Thanks guys for testing this. I've always wondered why sometimes I keep aggro rather easily and other times can't get it for the life of me. I agree that it would be nice for it to be a 100% gain aggro effect, but I think this would really mess with the game mechanics (what would a bird or mage really have to fear except a bad tank?).

As for my take on how it works, for me, it's really a matter of timing. I generally save taunt until its needed. A good tank should generally be able to keep a mob or boss pinned against a wall so in effect the tank has got aggro, plus the boss or mob isn't hitting the tank because it's attempting to hit whoever really has aggro but is to far away (unless it has ranged attack (witch, another thread on how to beat her easy)). This also goes for fighting along side another bear, one tank can save taunt until either the other tank get's in trouble or the mob escapes the pin. The party is generally okay as long as one of the bears have aggro. If the mob escapes the pin, immediate taunt and beckon to keep it away from the rest of the team. I find this usually results in me having aggro (wonder if beckon helps with this?).

Kraz

[Ellyidol]

I've been playing with my bird past few games and I've noticed something.

When I just normal attack, and use debuffs/shots once every few seconds, I don't get aggro even when I'm damaged pot and with a tank in front of me.

I do get aggro though if I combo, or do all 3 shots at once, which again confirms that DPS draws aggro more than the ability of the bear.

I do have a suggestion though, I've been thinking it would be good if that ! above the mob when its taunted LAST and LOOK longer/bigger. Seeing this, everyone would be able to let out all the skills and what not while its being taunted. Maybe that ! be above its head while its actually being taunted, to know when or when not to spam?

[evelo2]

Was in Shadow caves today, and I think the aggro model seems pretty straight forward.

If you follow a traditional MMO pattern.

I am an Enchantress, we went in and I was getting spanked. Diving in as I always do.
So I switched to a more traditional, aggro based style.

At the start of each Djinn attack I would switch to a Debuff, Buff and Heal pattern.
No attacks whilst the melee ( Bear and Bird ) built aggro. Around 20% in I would
open up attacks as well ( full on no holds barred ) and presto no aggro.

Anyone else?

[Hullukko]

I concur with the somehow cumulative aspect of it. (i.e. that the time it takes to get aggro seems to be influenced by prior dps or lack thereof)

As a pure int mage if I hold out from the start, say with the bandit king, it's not easy to get aggro afterwards, but if I start staffing from the start it's usually me that the bugger is after.

In crush the keeper I usually stopped damaging the keeper if he made it to the shield. It took a while for the aggro to switch to someone else. And when I unleashed my love at him again it again took a good while to switch back (assuming others kept banging at him).

One thing that could explain that behaviour is that the dps is added to the aggro counter of each player as a moving average, e.g. new aggro dps value = alfa * old + (1-alfa) * current dps, where alfa is 0...1. (that is how from a software engineer point of view I'd probably implement it).

That also would explain why a pure int mage easily picks up the aggro from the start which then after a while switches to a bird with an actual higher average single target dps.

Now, a taunt in that kind of a moving average would have a few options. It would be best implemented to force those counters into getting aggro. There are two ways of doing that, resetting those counters to values that give the aggro yet allowing others to easily obtain it again, or hurling in a bulk in the form fake dps. Or a combination of the two. I haven't played bear enough to be able to assess that.

[Arterra]

I cannot believe heal has no aggro. When rushing at ao2 lv4, if I ever healed a dying party member I would be the target of a million evil fists and fireballs. with rev too but not as much.

Either the developers changed it or something is wrong.

[KingFu]

I cannot believe heal has no aggro. When rushing at ao2 lv4, if I ever healed a dying party member I would be the target of a million evil fists and fireballs. with rev too but not as much.

Either the developers changed it or something is wrong.

We tested this in lower level campaigns, so devs may have changed this. I know it used to as well, so it either only does so in higher level campaigns, or devs changed it.

My guess would be they changed it....

[grenadiers]

so almost everytime i fight gold fever he normaly goes for me(a lvl 51 dexchantress) and i normaly die so if i want him not to always go for me a should slow down on the combos?

[Kraze]

So sounds like the key here is the bear waiting for combo (cruel/nature) to hit on boss fights to use taunt to pull the aggro off of the squishes. Or did I miss something?

[xBearSpiritx]

Imo, parties should be patient enough to not rush the boss encounter and let the tank go in to gain enough threat from using various skills (i.e. debuffs, taunt (stacked), beckon, crushing blow, stomp) to be able to hold threat before the rest or the party start debuffing and attacking.

That would be the ideal situation if we lived in a perfect PL world :-)

[spookytooth]

I have done some tests of my own with friends and have gotten similar results with taunt. It definately is a tricky spell of u try to use it at face worth. Ive found that havin a good lead on ur party and gettin that Taunt/beckon/scream in before the party attacks does the trick for the reguar mobs. As far as bosses the initial aggro with taunt, debuffs, and watever dmg can be done holds aggro for a few but since ppl spam there dps theres no way taunt alone will keep aggro like it does in some games. And your aggro % theory supports that for sure. In those instances well timed beckons and stomps take the place of having full aggro thru taunt. Very nice experimenting guys ive been wondering the mechanics of aggro awhile.

[Kraze]

Imo, parties should be patient enough to not rush the boss encounter and let the tank go in to gain enough threat from using various skills (i.e. debuffs, taunt (stacked), beckon, crushing blow, stomp) to be able to hold threat before the rest or the party start debuffing and attacking.

That would be the ideal situation if we lived in a perfect PL world :-)

What the thread is showing and what I've seen useing my bird no matter how long the bear has to build agro 1 cruel blast and I'm in full on kite mode

[Ellyidol]

Taunt is definitely tricky. After weeks of just playing through without sticking to any of these theories, it seems that :

1. Taunt definitely has a 100% aggro gain IF it hits.

This could be seen when Vyx was farmed in Shadow Caves. No matter how much damage the group is doing, one taunt shifts the aggro to you (bear).


2. Damage and Taunt go hand in hand.

Like #1, I've noticed that after Taunting on a melee equipment (lower damage/DPS), I lose aggro right after the initial Taunt. BUT when I use dex equipment (higher damage/way more DPS), I get to keep aggro after Taunting.


3. Heals and revs don't seem to get aggro anymore.

They definitely did before, I played my mage a lot during Ao3 days and I remember just healing and getting aggro, no attacks at all. But it seems that healing now doesn't get aggro at all, the only damage you take is from the AoE type attacks, if ever. I've played my mage through some levels and only healing, and surviving wasn't a problem aside from grates.

[Physiologic]

It would make sense that heal doesn't aggro at all, since its targeted towards allies only. It was probably unintended when it did aggro. Only instance in which I can see heal aggroing enemies is if the enemies were undead.