Archer and aggro

[adwin]

I recall reading an interesting breakdown of aggro, but can't find the post atm.

What's the deal with bosses aggro'ing birds in AO3?
I've been spamming speed runs to lvl these last few days in Crush the Keeper, and noticed that regardless of the player the "boss" aggroes first (be it bear or mage), he shifts to bird almost instantaneously (regardless of taunting).

My build is a pure dex bird, lvl 50 atm. I have noticed this tendency regardless of the bird's level.
I also don't know if that would also happen with a dex bear or mage (anyone interesting in testing that hypothesis?).

Here's the probabilities of boss aggro'ing me:
Keeper (ALWAYS) > Mynas > Lore


Any insight?

[Ellyidol]

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?19742-Aggro-Taunt-theories.

That thread?

We think it mostly boils down to highest DPS, and to actually keep aggro on yourself is kinda weird, especially with taunt.

[KingFu]

I think keeper gets deep into aggro quickly. I rarely see her switching aggro, same with GF.

[Moogerfooger]

A lot of it (I think) has to do with who hits the boss with a skill first, in the absence of a taunting bear especially. I noticed when I would run over that little walkway in Keeper, that if I nailed him with Break Armor or whatever before the mage/bear in front of me hit him with a skill, he would lock on me at first. Like Ellyidol's post said, Cruel Blast from a high DPS archer will definitely do it as well, as Goldfever loves that one especially....he will latch onto you like a fat kid on a cupcake.

[adwin]

@Ellyidol: yes, that thread. ;]
@Moogerfooger: Hmm, I have tested quite a few times, with different parties this theory.
I even stayed on the far side, near the entrance, while my party started attacking, and joined them after ~5-10 seconds. His aggro shifted to me nethertheless, almost at once.
As I mentioned earlier, this tendency occured since my early 40s and with different equipment (pure dex anyway).

Who knows, my character might be cursed. lol
Seriously, I'd like to get to the bottom of this, just out of pure curiosity.
Will have to test with dex bear, dex mage (both instances with, and without an archer, as well as an archer which isn't dex).
I only have 1 character, and I'll leave it to you guys to test that out.
;]

[Physiologic]

At first I wondered if aggro values were possible but then I thought about this -

Let's say 4 party members start damaging Gold Fever for 300, 250, 375, 150 damage and the like. One player hits him hard for that 375 damage, and Gold Fever aggros him. Gold Fever continues to target him as all the party members keep attacking for damage, but none of them can do close to 375 damage anymore. You step in, and you do 390 damage. He automatically switches aggro to you and the new aggro number is 390. All 5 party members now keep doing damage but your party members can't top 390, so Gold Fever continues to aggro you.

Taunt will trick the boss into thinking it did that new aggro number of 390, and will target the bear until Taunt runs out (in that point, aggro might be reset).

All hypothetical, of course.

[KingFu]

That sounds about right. Aggro values fit but sounded odd.

[Physiologic]

I didn't test that out entirely (copying down the aggro damage number and trying to get other people to top it off to see if it switches aggro). Sounds like a good thing to test?

[Ellyidol]

At first I wondered if aggro values were possible but then I thought about this -

Let's say 4 party members start damaging Gold Fever for 300, 250, 375, 150 damage and the like. One player hits him hard for that 375 damage, and Gold Fever aggros him. Gold Fever continues to target him as all the party members keep attacking for damage, but none of them can do close to 375 damage anymore. You step in, and you do 390 damage. He automatically switches aggro to you and the new aggro number is 390. All 5 party members now keep doing damage but your party members can't top 390, so Gold Fever continues to aggro you.

Taunt will trick the boss into thinking it did that new aggro number of 390, and will target the bear until Taunt runs out (in that point, aggro might be reset).

All hypothetical, of course.

Makes TONS of sense. Very possible, IMO.

[Physiologic]

That model fits in situations you get aggro and you stop attacking, and your party members attack but Gold Fever is still aggroed onto you. You guys can test it out, I was on for a little bit but I kept getting texts and yeah, it really screws up my ping.

[EpuYue]

If this is a curse, you are definitely not the only cursed one. Every time I play the keeper, and I mean EVERY time, my bird gets aggro'd by keeper. And it's not because I got the 1st hit since I tried to hold back and let others hit it 1st while I clear the other aliens, but once I start hitting the boss, after a few secs I'll start getting the repel and this goes on until he dies or my bird dies. :( I'm also really interested to know the mechanics behind this.:confused:

[adwin]

@EpuYue + @Physiologic:
I've made a few runs with a sentinel-set archer (lvl 51) along with mine (lvl 50 half-sunblessed) and surely enough, aggro switched to the lvl 51.
Your "damage" hypothesis stands ground.

[LordEspe]

My question for you is, How do you play? If you are hitting the boss, any boss, with your damage skills, in a row, yOu don't allow anyone else to take back aggro! Meaning if you hit Blast shot, blinding shot, root, break armor and so on, quickly, Yo deal so mch damage that he boss only sees you!

[wvhills]

I noticed this last night while playing AO Part 2. I'm a lvl 42 pure dex bird who's lvling up in the maps your supposed to (so I haven't been past AO part 2 yet). It seemed every party I was in the boss always aggroed on me. The first time I thought it was because I was the highest level in the party but then I joined another group and the same thing happened. There was a higher level bird, a mage, a bear and lower lvl bird or mage. I can't remember the name of it but we got to the map where the boss was a lizard looking thing with a pitchfork and he has two lesser djinn in there with him. I usually rush in first and thorn wall so the mages can get the nature strike combo off with their lightening but this time I went in last on purpose so they wouldn't aggro me. The bear was nice enough to go down to the lower part and pull all the enemies up. I was surviving well unto I thorned and got my cruel blast off then I was running in circles being chased by the boss and two lesser djinn while screaming "taunt! taunt!" and potting like crazy. The higher lvl bird must not have known he had a combo because he never used it. I wished he would so they would've attacked him instead of me. Lol.

[Kindread]

Well I don't mind taking aggro most of the time. In fact during Gold Fever fights it's my intention to take all the aggro and the bomb infections. That way at least I know to get the heck away from the group and not cause a total wipe. Also, I think it's fun getting chased around by batboy while everyone is wailing on him.

[Arcanahasabumrash]

I noticed the same.

[Moogerfooger]

Meaning if you hit Blast shot, blinding shot, root, break armor and so on, quickly, Yo deal so mch damage that he boss only sees you!

Probably...but at the same time, this is the entire point of being an archer....deal massive damage, not try to avoid aggro.

Just something the archers gotta deal with :cool:

[wvhills]

I see that. I also play a bear (lvl 37, pure str) who I like to tank with. Are you saying that if an archer is doing his job correctly then it's impossible for me to pull Aggro? Because if it is I'm going to delete the bear and start a mage!

[Moogerfooger]

I see that. I also play a bear (lvl 37, pure str) who I like to tank with. Are you saying that if an archer is doing his job correctly then it's impossible for me to pull Aggro? Because if it is I'm going to delete the bear and start a mage!

Good tanks are always needed :D if you read Phys/Elly's thoughts earlier on, they think that Taunt with some skill points into it actually 'fakes' having high DPS....maybe. If that is the case, then by using Taunt you could 'fake' having high DPS to get the boss to notice you and pull aggro from the archers.

Hopefully one of them who understand it better than I will see this and explain it better than I can ;)

[adwin]

@LordEspe: Moogerfooger replied to that question, although I noticed being aggrod sometime without doing anything

@Morawk: I do 1 thing only in GF
- DPS the boss until a chest appears with an orb, which I make my priority to crash, and/or get GF, then go away, die a painful death and get resurrected. ;]

[LordEspe]

Playing as a bear I've also noticed if I beckon/ stomp (combo) then taunt I gain aggro back, at least it seems to work for me. I know this is not the topic but just saying aggro can be taken away from archers.

[Doubletime]

Well I agree with everyone here that aggro seems to shift based on the threat of a particular player. Meaning those characters with the highest dps seem to naturally pull aggro. However, when tanking with my bear I can tend to keep aggro with a boss as long as I spam taunt and rage (at least for half the boss fight), since rage adds so much dps and general damage to a bear attack. It is just about impossible to keep aggro the entire time with a bear, but more than anything if you can keep it some of the time it gives a break to allow for healing and health pots.

What really is frustrating is when party members intentionally dial back attacks to avoid getting aggro only to leave your bird to get pounded or constantly spamming health pots.

[LordEspe]

Very true! It all comes down to teamwork. If everyone plays there roles right, it all works out IMO!

[EpuYue]

It definitely helps alot if there's a good tank, there're some bear friends in my list that I usually like to play with. But if using my skills will result my getting aggro'd then I guess seeing mobs running around behind me can be sort of a thrill too.:p

[Conradin]

I think thedevs should make taunt stronger. I tank well, can hold aggro most of the time, but it is embarrossing when tuant doesnt work, or my aoe dps is too low on mobs so they get attacked instead of me. also if a bird or elf deals a huge hit combo on a boss, it makes bears look like fools as we try to chase around the boss, beckoning it off our mages/birds and spamming taunt to no affect

[Kindread]

@LordEspe: Moogerfooger replied to that question, although I noticed being aggrod sometime without doing anything

@Morawk: I do 1 thing only in GF
- DPS the boss until a chest appears with an orb, which I make my priority to crash, and/or get GF, then go away, die a painful death and get resurrected. ;]

If you get infected with gold fever and run away from the group, it should only hit you for about half to 2/3rds of your life. You normally don't die from it unless you're near someone.

[Gluttony]

Playing as a bear I've also noticed if I beckon/ stomp (combo) then taunt I gain aggro back, at least it seems to work for me. I know this is not the topic but just saying aggro can be taken away from archers.

So what I understand from this thread is that pure dex bird usually has the highest DPS in a party, so the highest level bird will take usually take aggro. The only proven way to take aggro away from bird is for a bear to purposefully take aggro away (which most are not willing to do). So birds who have the lowest survivability out of the three classes (mages have mana shield, bears have HP and dodge) are also the class that is most likely to take all of the damage from bosses? Does this sound correct to you?!

[Ellyidol]

So what I understand from this thread is that pure dex bird usually has the highest DPS in a party, so the highest level bird will take usually take aggro. The only proven way to take aggro away from bird is for a bear to purposefully take aggro away (which most are not willing to do). So birds who have the lowest survivability out of the three classes (mages have mana shield, bears have HP and dodge) are also the class that is most likely to take all of the damage from bosses? Does this sound correct to you?!

Yeah sadly, if the bear doesn't want to tank in the first place, aggro should always go to the highest DPS.

Thats where the problem lies though, even if a bear wants to take aggro, it doesn't always mean he gets it. Which leads to your point, how can the softest class be expected to get aggro if aggro skills don't even fully work on bears.

[WhoIsThis]

Thoughts:

- If the bear doesn't want to take aggro, well, you're going to get aggro. That's a bear who isn't doing their job properly (sadly there are lots of bears like this), but regardless, you are stuck with aggro.

- As was pointed out, the problem lies in when the bear wants to take aggro but is unable to do so. I have seen situations where bears, despite having rage on, then casting taunt, crippling blow, and super mega, plus a bunch of other moves, unable to take aggro away from either of the two other classes. In that case, the only way for a bear to gain aggro would be for all 4 members of the team to cease firing until the bear gains aggro (unacceptable in many cases).

- Going on that, one very alarming thing I see sometimes in PvE is what I call boss leeching - people who simply do not try to output maximum DPS for fear of gaining aggro.




Fundamentally, the problem is that a bird has the highest DPS. Pure int mages also have similar problems - low armor and very high DPS; I have often been aggroed after casting a combo. The bosses are going to identify you as the top threat that needs to be taken out. The reason is because of how players choose to build their characters - more dakka. You chose pure dex bird, not dex/str dual spec (warbird). Mages chose to be pure int and not pally. Otherwise, bears would have less trouble doing so.

I think that you are going to have to accept that you will have aggro and figure out how to improve survivability, along with how to kill bosses the fastest.

[Moogerfooger]

I think that you are going to have to accept that you will have aggro and figure out how to improve survivability, along with how to kill bosses the fastest.

+1.

Another thing I thought of....sometimes when running in our Train parties, it seemed that when I was running my higher Crit setup, man I would get aggro and keep it even moreso than normal. It is just a thought, but maybe crit has something directly/indirectly to do with it...although it ties into damage per fit/DPS, so not an entirely original thought.

[adwin]

@Mooger: higher crit makes you deal more damage over time, which fits with the +damage -> aggro hypothesis.

I have found this to be true (tested with switching among higher crit, dps and armor setups)

[Moogerfooger]

That is what I meant, adwin. What I should have said was that when I go with sets that have a little less DPS but higher Crit, I hold aggro more than lower Crit/higher dmg setups with roughly the same damage output.

[WhoIsThis]

That is what I meant, adwin. What I should have said was that when I go with sets that have a little less DPS but higher Crit, I hold aggro more than lower Crit/higher dmg setups with roughly the same damage output.

I wonder if the frequency that a person holds aggro relative to the rest of their team is an accurate way to measure their damage output to a single target. The real question is - what matters more to aggro: burst damage or sustained damage? Birds have very high both. Release everything you've got break armor, cruel blast, thorn root, blinding shot, repulse, and you've got a formidable burst damage, especially with focus. What I found interesting is that a significant amount of time (and you've seen this first hand mooger), is that I end up holding aggro despite the presence of birds releasing everything they've got. First, that implies that pure int mages are probably in the same ballpark (not a surprise - our drain life and frostbite attacks are quite damaging to single targets, as are our area spells) or that there is some other factor at work. Debuffs do not seem to attract aggro. What other factors are there?

Another point worth making is that when properly supported (ex: constant heals), archers are pretty good at aggro. They can use repulse to push their targets away and their weapons have the longest range of the three classes (especially blasters). Although they can't hold ground like bears, they are still very good at getting bosses to play cat and mouse. Mages, not so much - no repulse. The only saving grace is that they can heal. Mana shield, while useful is not as effective as it seems in that a boss could quickly put a mage in a position where their mana has been depleted.

[adwin]

That's what I usually do: when hacking at harder bosses and when I KNOW I'm bound to get aggro, I unleash my finger dance combo and leave repulse when I start getting aggro'd.
Great survivability rate. This also allows you to solo *most* bosses.

[Moogerfooger]

What I found interesting is that a significant amount of time (and you've seen this first hand mooger), is that I end up holding aggro despite the presence of birds releasing everything they've got. First, that implies that pure int mages are probably in the same ballpark (not a surprise - our drain life and frostbite attacks are quite damaging to single targets, as are our area spells) or that there is some other factor at work. .

Yes, I have seen you completely hold aggro with Phys and I and Mitsu just unleashing everything. I wonder if the game, in the background, takes a time period like...5 seconds...figures out who dealt it the most damage during that 5 secs, and aggros there. Not necessarily at first, the one to nail with a high damage skill seems to get it initially....but maybe afterward? Just a wild-a$$ guess.

Yes, repulse shot works wonders when you have aggro, as long as you don't blast the boss past the reset point. And having Evasion on as much as possible, ofc.

[adwin]

when you have aggro, as long as you don't blast the boss past the reset point. And having Evasion on as much as possible, ofc.

Oh no no. I always try to pin him to a wall thanks to repulse.
Add that to strategy. ;]

On a side note, I HATE it when ppl repulse or bears push outside of reset, especially with GF and goblin king.

[Moogerfooger]

Oh that is just a given :p the old-skool skewer-with-repulse-against-a-wall move. I meant when with certain bosses where it is easy to inadvertently knock them past the reset point, like the King/Queen when you have one in the outer hall. I have also seen both bears and archers (myself once) inadvertently blow GF out the door down the hall, lol.

[WhoIsThis]

I will often hold back my spells until multiple spells are recharged. I then unload everything at once for the reason that it does do more net damage over time. Different abilities have different recharge times (most archer abilities are within 1 second of each other). My first shot is always armor debuff (nightmare, which is that purple thing you see under me). Archers to some extent should as well. Break armor is the first thing that the archer should always fire at a boss before anything else as well, to maximize the damaging effects of everything else.

In your example, despite yourself and the rest of the birds unloading everything, in many cases, I still held aggro, in many cases until either I or the boss died. That implies that the boss (in our case Gold Fever) still considers me to be a bigger threat. It's entirely possible that you would have to do a significantly higher amount of damage than I was in order to gain aggro. However, the fact that I gained aggro initially at all suggests that whatever the enemy's criteria, I ranked near the top, if not the top.





Another interesting point is the proportion of damage coming from weapons versus spells. Birds are heavily "weapon-centric", that is their abilities are an extension of their main weapon. The main damage inflicter is the bow or blaster or wing/talon itself. Among the abilities, blast shot/cruel is the main damage dealer. Bears are like that too, with just super mega slash being a significant damage dealer (not to mention chance of rooting the target). The other attacks emphasize debuffing or having an effect rather than direct damage. For mages, things are different. We are "spell-centric", that is our wands and staffs don't do nearly as much damage, but our spells are much more potent. We have lightning, fire blast, ice storm (combine for combo with fire blast), frost bite, and drain life. These are all dedicated towards inflicting damage. Spells like break armor aren't designed to inflict damage as much as they are designed to debuff.

Implications? For mages, mana regen is critical. This is a serious problem for dex mages. Mage equipment in general has high mana regen. Contrast these two pictures (dex mage (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TTpW5fSWQqI/AAAAAAAAAFI/WjpNoNLxXFk/Dexchantress1.png) vs. int mage (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TUSIfmvvrHI/AAAAAAAAAGA/Ozeojd_4sqQ/Pure%20Int.png)). Note the mana regen rates on both. If you are a bird or bear, compare the mana regen to your own. You'll notice that we mages burn through mana because we need it not just for things like heal, but because we need it to inflict damage. For you guys, the weapon is the center. Whether this has any impact on aggro is unknown.

[adwin]

This sums it up, but whilst facing a boss, you ARE supposed to unload everything (speaking from a bird's view point, of course), which DOES NOT mean that it has to be chaotic (button mashing).
I DO unload everything, save for repulse (in case I need it, should I keep aggro for too long) and I alternate between the 2 rooting techniques.

I will have to disagree with you regarding the opening shot for a bird (although it might just be subjective):
the first thing I nearly ALWAYS do, it root. Once the target's dodge goes down (hopefully), I fire away the rest of my debuffs.
Since the root should have decreased his dodged, the rest has a better probability of connecting.
THEN come the real damage dealers -> combos.

[KaotiicxDream]

I always try to take as much aggro i can with My Tank bear ... But sometimes i cant take aggro even if i use Evade and Taunt which should take a lot of the aggro..

[MITSUISUN]

another thing like other MMORPG that i played, is the amount of "hate" or aggravation.

Meaning, the more # of skills unload on boss, the more he/she hates you more and come after you. so, in the case of our "pink train choo choo" 4 birds unload all skills same time within 5 secs, then it's who damaged more and missed less on top holds agro. (perhaps)

red orb helps too, although Attackelf just noticed while both of us 56 and Moog had red orb, I took agro on GF, but I did enter room earlier while Moog grab orb.

So Attackelf's higher level theory might have some valid points. When Moog reach 56 in an hour or so we will test more for show

[WhoIsThis]

I just came out of a fight with Mooger. He was 56. We both fought the Gold Fever together and we both had a red orb. What's interesting is that the Gold Fever choose me, despite me being the last person in (because I went to get the last orb).

[Moogerfooger]

Don't forget that when you/a mage throws the Nature Strike combo, according to Phys the damage "credit" goes to the mage. So although an archer using all skills may be doing a lot of heavy hits, that Nature Strike is well over 1000 damage sometimes in our runs....might feed into that total-damage-per-time-period idea.

[WhoIsThis]

I don't remember seeing a second "combo" - just one from the hot flash. It is possible though. We may have to test this in the future.

[Moogerfooger]

Sorry , I meant when an archer throws Thorn Root (single tgt) or Thorn Wall (AoE) and a mage subsequently throws Lightning, you trigger the Nature Strike combo; if bossed already heavily debuffed it causes *major* damage, which gets 'credited' to the mage supposedly. I see it repeatedly when running with you :D

[WhoIsThis]

At time of this writing, my nature strike does 246 - 378 base damage, plus a 3 - 11 second armor debuff. It recharges once every 3 seconds, so I cast it fairly frequently. The fact that I cast the blessings likely doubles that (+60% crit), plus perhaps a second doubling (?) maybe with the nature strike, and perhaps buffed even more by the fact that I had a red orb.

If I am under the blessings buff, I have a crit currently of 78%, so there is a 78% that my buff will double. (The reason why I wanted the dex helm - a bit off topic, was because of the +10% crit btw; when I get the newer mega mage equipment, my crit will decline to 70%, but with dex crown it will be 80%). This means that there is a 78% chance that the hit will be in excess of that amount, which will later drop to 70%. (Off topic again, but with the Raid Roach, birds lost mana regen. We mages lost our critical hit bonuses with the new Mage equipment.).

Blessings of might buffs crit by 60% for 20 seconds and I believe has a 30 second recharge. It buffs the party's armor by 1 and strength by 6; it's that yellow sparkly thing you see mages often cast before battles. Blessings of vitality is the magenta thing you see.