Tindirin Wilds Changes

[ueveotadeo]

Hi all, Id like to express my thoughts on this new Mob size/placement on Wilds.

First of all, it's nice to see that u guys are working hard on improving all lag issues on game. Nonetheless I have a concern on how those mobs are scatered through map. As we all might know, Warriors and Mages are quite neglected on good end game pts. Good rogues usualy run onl on rogue pts, no real need for warrs and mages on elite maps nowadays (dunno if it has been always like this or if its just my bad luck on not geting pts). With reduced mobs u basicaly killed the need to have a warr holding aggro and with them being so scatered around there is realy no need for a mage to spread damage around.

I might be very wrong here, and I realy hope I am, but looks to me that if this new arrangement is the way to go with the game you are just killing the need of warrs and mages. If this is the way to go at least make the mobs attack faster and harder so you make the need of have someone constantly stunning them and holding aggro.

Have any more experienced player tried this map?
What you guys think about this new mob placement?

[Remiem]

Interesting analysis. I would also be interested to hear what other warriors and mages think. :)

[Zylx]

I had the same concern on the original thread by Carapace. Mages are good for crowd control, and warriors are the damage-absorbing tanks. With all these changes going into effect (mob size, leash, etc), the purposes of those two classes would be diminished and it will be even harder for those players to find parties.

Rogues are ideal for dealing large damage to small groups of mobs/bosses. My concern, is that everyone is going to want to go with a full party of rogues (as it would be more efficient), rather than the usual 1warr + 2rogues + 1mage.

[Carapace]

Thanks for the feedback on this, I will talk it over with Null_Void and see if we can devise a middle ground moving forward into other levels of relevance in the future. We do want to preserve as much of the original feel as we can, and we felt that The Wilds was a good middle ground map to begin the process and get player feedback on on top of our potential maximum bandwidth gains.

There is no doubt a middle ground somewhere, but network performance moving forward is very important as well.

[Cray]

I'm not very experienced but ill share my view lol
I play as rogue, and ran this map with 2 other rogues today (2 mythic weaps and one legendary)
We cud just ran to boss spamming arrows and the boss wud appear, runs were rly fast and we only need to stop to kill a group of mobs one time in the map now.
I don't mind the changes(cuz I'm rogue prolly lol) but I see ur point in it making wars and mages more unwanted for runs

[ueveotadeo]

Yes, for normal maps you dont need warrs and mages, I was refering to Elite runs...

And I agree network improvements should be a concern since the game population is growing. But if we are making mobs small and more spreaded, make then hit stronger and faster, that way we could bring some use for warrs and mages (i think)

[GoodSyntax]

I think it is time for Warriors to evolve a bit. Sure, there is always a need for a good tank, but there should also be an alternative build where they can be more of an offensive threat. Yeah, I know, you can use a Maul and Assault (or Potency) set, but even still, the damage output is low, and I don't care what STS says, having tanks in your party DOES make runs more difficult in that bosses hit harder.

If Warrior's in party were massively debuffing mobs while dealing fair damage, then I think people would be more willing to run with them. Unfortunately, for the high-end parties, the age of the pure tank is over - especially with Ankh around.

Suppose there were an upgrade to Windmill that debuffed mobs (and bosses) armor by 50%. Also, like Enfeebling, there could an upgrade to Skyward Smash that reduced mob (and boss) hit chance by 100% for 2 seconds.

This would then create a new dynamic in game, where Tanks primary role is aggro management and debuffing, Sorcs primary role is crowd control and DoT, and Rogues primary role would be single target damage.

As long as tanks continue to bring little to the party other than serving as a punching bag, tanks will continue to suffer. STS, please consider adding massive debuff capabilities to the tank class, it would make their role in party a critical one for fast runs and survival against the one-hit bosses!

[ueveotadeo]

I think it is time for Warriors to evolve a bit. Sure, there is always a need for a good tank, but there should also be an alternative build where they can be more of an offensive threat. Yeah, I know, you can use a Maul and Assault (or Potency) set, but even still, the damage output is low, and I don't care what STS says, having tanks in your party DOES make runs more difficult in that bosses hit harder.

If Warrior's in party were massively debuffing mobs while dealing fair damage, then I think people would be more willing to run with them. Unfortunately, for the high-end parties, the age of the pure tank is over - especially with Ankh around.

Suppose there were an upgrade to Windmill that debuffed mobs (and bosses) armor by 50%. Also, like Enfeebling, there could an upgrade to Skyward Smash that reduced mob (and boss) hit chance by 100% for 2 seconds.

This would then create a new dynamic in game, where Tanks primary role is aggro management and debuffing, Sorcs primary role is crowd control and DoT, and Rogues primary role would be single target damage.

As long as tanks continue to bring little to the party other than serving as a punching bag, tanks will continue to suffer. STS, please consider adding massive debuff capabilities to the tank class, it would make their role in party a critical one for fast runs and survival against the one-hit bosses!

As always great post!

Giving warriors some debuffs would be great! But then again coming the fact that mobs are so scatered around and so small in size would mean that rogues debuff capabilities with aimed shot could be enough.

What about making mobs faster? Moving faster, attacking faster, it should bring back some need for tank and mages in a short term. Changes in skills might be more tricky, but I agree with you that they are needed.

[Xorrior]

I am an end-game tank, and this layout will make me totally redundant. I agree with the original post and Kalizzaa's first post. Please take a good luck at this, I feel that if maps are to be scattered around like this. You will kill off the tanks for good! Give the tank the ability to heavily debuff mobs and bosses and stop one hit boss kills, with some sort of charge skill.

In the next expansion to make sure rogues don't run riot, you can have a mob mage/genie that negates rogues attacks should there be a party of 3 or more.

[GoodSyntax]

As always great post!

Giving warriors some debuffs would be great! But then again coming the fact that mobs are so scatered around and so small in size would mean that rogues debuff capabilities with aimed shot could be enough.

What about making mobs faster? Moving faster, attacking faster, it should bring back some need for tank and mages in a short term. Changes in skills might be more tricky, but I agree with you that they are needed.

This is true, but the real value of a debuff tank would be at the boss. Imagine being able to kill a boss in half the time because the tank is constantly applying a 50% armor debuff. Also, a great tank would mean that you rarely, if ever get hit by a windup because when the tank sees the red zone, he applies the 100% hit debuff, effectively allowing everyone in the zone to dodge the attack. Either that, or shield you with HoR when the hit debuff is on cool down.

Tanks need to become a strategic class. And, I think crushing debuffs would be the best way to make pro parties WANT to run with tanks again!

[Xorrior]

Yes, make the tank a strategy class, for example... In tomb 3 when Taurus gets ready to do his red dash attack. I run and block him! He bounces off me and I get dazed, better than a rogue or mage dying!

[Zeus]

In PL, tanks had some pretty epic debuffs which made it not as much of a hassle to run with the good ones. On top of that, they had some crowd control skills to help group mobs. AL has none of that and gave that role to sorcerers which, IMO, is why tanks are almost always left out these days.

The real reason people used tanks was not for their ability to take damage/absorb it...but because they were able to herd mobs and apply fantastic debuffs.

[Enterradora]

In the wilds normal map i run solo easy whitt warr, mage or rogue, anyway u can go random and always someone is there.

If u are talking about elite, warr and mage still need to be there, warr to get dmg and heal properly, and mage to crontrol de mobs.

If u do a party whit 4 rogues u cant do a big pull whit an insurance to survive.

just my opinion

[ueveotadeo]

If u are talking about elite, warr and mage still need to be there, warr to get dmg and heal properly, and mage to crontrol de mobs.

If u do a party whit 4 rogues u cant do a big pull whit an insurance to survive.

just my opinion

I understand what you say, on a not so good geared PT it can be helpfull to still have them on PT, which might be most of the cases tbh now that I think on that....

But in a more hardcorea and geared PT there is realy no need for warrs....

[Enterradora]

I understand what you say, on a not so good geared PT it can be helpfull to still have them on PT, which might be most of the cases tbh now that I think on that....

But in a more hardcorea and geared PT there is realy no need for warrs....

rogues whit 5k hp / 700 dmg and 1700 armor no need warrs or mages in any map but they are the 1%

[ueveotadeo]

rogues whit 5k hp / 700 dmg and 1700 armor no need warrs or mages in any map but they are the 1%

Agree, but bear with me on this one, even not so fully geared rogues, with the right skills and tactics, rly dont need warrs...

And as you said, there is a 1% of rogues with that stats, but there also is a 1% of tanks with pretty awesome stats with arc ring, mythic amulet and weapon (which is my case, and I realy hope I dont sound too arrogant by saying this) and I bet those guys would like to see more use for them on PVE elite PTs.

There should be a need, despite of the gear you have, to have all classes on PT. Making each one have a strategic role making runs going faster and smoother, gears would just increase the speed, but tactics should always play a major role!

I dont know if Im right on what Im saying or not, Im just expressing my concerns about the need of warriors and mages on endgame Elite PTs.


All classes should have an equal importance and need on a PT, even though their strategic roles are diferent

[Maarkus]

Interesting analysis. I would also be interested to hear what other warriors and mages think. :)

Good evening,
I havent ran the new tindrin map but even without running it the recent scenario is that tanks are generally unwanted as we slow down parties, as pointed out, a tank's purpose in elite runs is almost obsolete, it would be great if STS can evaluate the warrior skills and from my experience.
Modesty aside i believe that my gear is rather maxed and i have one of the rare crit build warrior set ups which can reach 50crit at 700dmg with 800dps and thats with elix but in no way am i as efficient as a medium geared rogue.
Though i understand giving warriors more crit and dmg wont solve the problem the points mentioned on allowing wars to debuff mons and bosses can be the next way to evolve out class. I may be mistaken but if i remember correctly there was a time when chestsplitter was able to cancell boss special attacks either that or the feeble upgrade was just that effective this is like an option for pve runs.
I sincerely hope that sts looks into this.
Thanks for reading
Maarkus

[Xorrior]

We struggle to be involved in end-game party runs these days. If the current Elite Tindirin Wilds will be the way maps and future expansions are to be layed out then my existence as a tank will be null and void.

If I don't get the party invites or my class becomes totally redundant then tell me DEVs why would I continue to invest and play this game ? I am not here to chat in guild halls or stand around in any outposts/camps or piers for hours on end hoping and wishing for someone to take pity on me and party with this old tank.

I want to play as a tank and would like to be involved in all aspects of capped gameplay.

As I have said make a mob protagonist that would nullify a gang of rogues and as we have said in this post allow our class to debuff heavily mobs and bosses and give us a chance of 100% to stop the boss death blow.

P.S I am constantly called for tomb 3 runs because I stun the boss and also block him from insta-killing a rogue or mage with his dash. Those two feats are my saving grace in the game!

[Veluthe]

I too think wild improvements are awkward. Mobs are too scattered and few now. This issue lies where you take first turn right after first group of mobs and before boss. After first right turn there is a lone mob and before boss the mob group is too near to boss area I think. Its also noticeable mobs have been scaled down and boss buffed which is fine but with new mob placement wilds is super easy now. Before this change wilds could easily be done with all dps now its even easier. And yes this makes tanks obsolete so the debuffing for them would be great. Even in tombs and other elites you dont need tank if good dps especially mage which can control mobs well. Clock+ ethyl ftw!

[Tankbozz]

I'm a tank for pve and my vorm is easy.
When you have entered friends who run with a warrior you haven't luck. All run with rouge many guys quit warrior and do rouge because of it. Rouges are the new tanks that's bad! The worth of mage and warrior get down because it gone useless. rouge with samael or singe don't need a tank who hold aggro anymore. Frost bow make the clock skill from mage useless! I hope you fix that, when not mage and warrior are useless in end game and only rouges go for end game and I think sts don't like it!

best wishes Tankbozz

[Serancha]

Sorry, I have to say this because it's a huge pet peeve - the class is ROGUE. Rouge is a kind of makeup, and / or the color red in French.

In any case, warrior issues in PvE need to be addressed - there's a whole lot of different reasons, but basically runs take way longer with a Fatty, so why would anyone want to take one?

[Xorrior]

In any case, warrior issues in PvE need to be addressed - there's a whole lot of different reasons, but basically runs take way longer with a Fatty, so why would anyone want to take one?

^^ Agrees.

I love this game, I love playing it, but don't force me and others out based on unreasonable game mechanics.

[karrdath]

Also with the decreased pull radius it really messes things up in the last map of nord. When you get flung a ridiculous amount aways from the mobs. You go outside the area and mobs reset.

[Ravager]

Good evening,
I havent ran the new tindrin map but even without running it the recent scenario is that tanks are generally unwanted as we slow down parties, as pointed out, a tank's purpose in elite runs is almost obsolete, it would be great if STS can evaluate the warrior skills and from my experience.
Modesty aside i believe that my gear is rather maxed and i have one of the rare crit build warrior set ups which can reach 50crit at 700dmg with 800dps and thats with elix but in no way am i as efficient as a medium geared rogue.
Though i understand giving warriors more crit and dmg wont solve the problem the points mentioned on allowing wars to debuff mons and bosses can be the next way to evolve out class. I may be mistaken but if i remember correctly there was a time when chestsplitter was able to cancell boss special attacks either that or the feeble upgrade was just that effective this is like an option for pve runs.
I sincerely hope that sts looks into this.
Thanks for reading
Maarkus

Agreed. I have what's to be a considered max/near max warrior too but my friends and guildmates always tell me to switch to my rogue. My rogue is not fully geared, yet preferred.

[Jazzi]

Just did elite wilds. It had been a long time I did this with tombs, events and everything. The pull zone of mobs is really funny (not in the good way). If this is implemented for all maps it could make some of them pretty bad (due to inability to park). Anyways About the tanks: at max gear I could imagine that they are not needed. At low to mid gear they are very useful actually, especially in tombs and arena (no protection lix, which changes things a lot). I have the feeling that mobs scale differently when there is a tank present though. They just take longer to kill, but maybe this is just wrong perception.

Anyway I think that the main problem is in the skills of the warriors. I have a lvl 31 tank (experience gain stopped), which has pretty much maxed gear for his lvl, except arcane maul and I find him unbearably slow to play. Dude takes forever (perceived as compared to my lvl 41 rogue and mage) the bosses in the story quests?!? Dude has over 300 damage. Dunno what is wrong with him.

[ueveotadeo]

Thank you guys for sharig my concern.

I realy hope devs take this in consideration and give us some utility in end game again :)

[ilhanna]

I'm a rogue and I hate the new mob arrangement as well. It makes Tindirin looks like Brackenridge. With the previous arrangement I could use the mobs to show guildmates of every class how to coordinate and rotate skills and it was fun even on the normal map. Now it's meh, no challenge.

[mlb2005]

Maybe rogues have to much armor? When something starts hitting them it should send them running. The most powerful attackers should drop like flies without protection from the tanks and mages. Just my opinion.

[Jazzi]

Maybe rogues have to much armor? When something starts hitting them it should send them running. The most powerful attackers should drop like flies without protection from the tanks and mages. Just my opinion.

Oh believe me rogues with legendary and semi-mythic gear are running, as they get one or to hit by most of the mobs in elite tindirin. It is just those with truly maxed gear (1% of the population)that are not and the problem there, If u can call it a problem, is that they have 5 k health, relatively high armour and in many of the instances protection lix is used.

[Xorrior]

Bumped just for the Devs :)

[utpal]

I really dnt know y even warrior exist here LOL.
to heal party? XD there's cheap potion.
and being a warrior and getting one shot in elites or tombs like rogue and mage sucks.

in PL and SL, tanks are so usefull.
Bears are OP tank in PL.
then SL Commando

AL warriors comes no close. to above. and
here Rogues are beast.

now tthese Tindirin Wilds. Always favouring rogue.....EVERYTIME.

[Xorrior]

I really dnt know y even warrior exist here LOL.


This is the question I've been asking myself a lot lately. Do I invest further in a useless character, do I go rogue (which I really don't want to) or do I just give up after completing the new expansion.

Imma see what the new expansion brings and any changes that are positive for the warrior class, if any.

[Rx8]

I understand what you say, on a not so good geared PT it can be helpfull to still have them on PT, which might be most of the cases tbh now that I think on that....

But in a more hardcorea and geared PT there is realy no need for warrs....

I love warriors and my braggadocio warrior bRo. Also tanks are the best class for elites and i dont get it why ppl dont value them, they allow more survival of mages and rogues with HoR. They have amazing capabilities to park which a mage can do but for a very short period. Tanks are known to survive longer than any other class. Their high hp and armor helps them to survive. I personally have seen u skippleggaday but i have no idea about how u play as tank i heard that u are a great tank to have! tanks are fierce wars who can panic. can sts buff their chances of panicing their enemies in pvp? I feel that 1/4 CS isnt so good for elites.

As for mages, we can literally blow the heck out of mobs in a normal dungeon in solo and multiple ppl. I personally stun lock my target through gale and fireball allowing me to kill them fAster. I have tried other classes and was impressed with all of them. Mages need more stuns in elites. I dont think we can stun much.

[extrapayah]

yeah, and increase rally cry AoE range, add more party buffs to mage's skill

[Hadec]

Good evening,
I havent ran the new tindrin map but even without running it the recent scenario is that tanks are generally unwanted as we slow down parties, as pointed out, a tank's purpose in elite runs is almost obsolete, it would be great if STS can evaluate the warrior skills and from my experience.
Modesty aside i believe that my gear is rather maxed and i have one of the rare crit build warrior set ups which can reach 50crit at 700dmg with 800dps and thats with elix but in no way am i as efficient as a medium geared rogue.
Though i understand giving warriors more crit and dmg wont solve the problem the points mentioned on allowing wars to debuff mons and bosses can be the next way to evolve out class. I may be mistaken but if i remember correctly there was a time when chestsplitter was able to cancell boss special attacks either that or the feeble upgrade was just that effective this is like an option for pve runs.
I sincerely hope that sts looks into this.
Thanks for reading
Maarkus

good points bro..

[Madnex]

1. Make Axe Throw pull all bosses without exceptions.
2. Make the aggro snatching skills' effect ABSOLUTE throughout skill's duration.
3. Include stronger party buffs.

[GoodSyntax]

1. Make Axe Throw pull all bosses without exceptions.
2. Make the aggro snatching skills' effect ABSOLUTE throughout skill's duration.
3. Include stronger party buffs.

Sorry, but that's not enough to convince me to run with tanks all the time. Give me debuffs....and lots of them.

The issue isn't so much that we need tanks to hold aggro all the time (which even average tanks are capable of doing), rather, having tanks in party isn't as helpful as it was back in Kraken and Nordr. Now, having a tank in party means the run will take longer.

Most DPS classes are looking for farming efficiency (since we all know it is exceedingly difficult to make any positive cashflow from farming alone). If having a tank means you get in one or two less runs during a reroll elixir, then, most would agree that it isn't a worthwhile tradeoff.

Having a tank shouldn't slow you down, it should just open up different strategies.

[Kingofninjas]

I totally agree with everything said here. Somebody suggested giving tanks the ability of 1 if their skills to apply a 50% armor debuff on boss. I think it is a great idea.

This sort of idea has already been implemented in the maul, which even today has the best proc of any weapon in the game. Recently I ran arena with 3 rogues including myself and a maul tank. 1 of the rogues was maxed out, with ring and amulet but both of the other rogues were lacking ring and 1 was lacking amulet too (me). We had a mauler with us and guess what? Our runs took about 5 minutes on average, depending in arena effect. I don't think a fourth rogue wudve im proved the time taken. He/she may not worsen but it definitely would not have been improved. The only difference would be the number of ankh and pots spent per run. Anyways, as I was saying with a mauler the runs were sufficiently fast for me to actually want a tank in our party. Thing is, not all tanks can afford a maul and the tank in our party at the time was pretty much standing in 1 spot spamming auto attack, throwing out a horn to keep aggro and a ss to move to where the boss was, but that's about it. Instead of making tanks pay 9-10m for this skill, add it to windmill as an upgrade.

[Madnex]

50% armor debuff is too much of a game changer. Half the time that takes to kill a boss? Then we complain about useless hordes of pinks and nothing to farm? Not even going to mention PvP (assuming this is purely a PvE discussion).

Maybe a restriction like no more than two of each class members per run.

[aquascaper]

1. Make Axe Throw pull all bosses without exceptions.


*Pulls Rendtail* xD

[Serancha]

50% armor debuff is too much of a game changer. Half the time that takes to kill a boss? Then we complain about useless hordes of pinks and nothing to farm? Not even going to mention PvP (assuming this is purely a PvE discussion).

Maybe a restriction like no more than two of each class members per run.

Erm...why no more than 2 of each class per run? Debuffs don't stack. Since the most logical skill to put this on would be axe throw, the c/d is 7 seconds (if memory serves), so 2 warriors wouldn't make any difference over 1.

[Madnex]

*Pulls Rendtail* xD
There was actually a bug where he could be pulled using Whim or Frosteye AA at the expansion's launch. Silent patch but you bet we had some fun with that!

Erm...why no more than 2 of each class per run? Debuffs don't stack. Since the most logical skill to put this on would be axe throw, the c/d is 7 seconds (if memory serves), so 2 warriors wouldn't make any difference over 1.
The point is to be forced to make the run class-diverse and not four rogues or three rogues one mage. Two rogues two mages would probably be preferred but enforcing one of each class necessary would limit the runs quite a bit.

[Serancha]

There was actually a bug where he could be pulled using Whim or Frosteye AA at the expansion's launch. Silent patch but you bet we had some fun with that!

The point is to be forced to make the run class-diverse and not four rogues or three rogues one mage. Two rogues two mages would probably be preferred but enforcing one of each class necessary would limit the runs quite a bit.

Ah I see what you did there. Would be kind of hard to code that, and it might really suck for pugs, having to wait till the appropriate classes showed up

[Xpolosion]

Ya this will absolutely kill the need for mages in timed runs zzzz

[Rx8]

*Pulls Rendtail* xD

Rendaitl will get alot of fractures....*runs and axes rend

Hmm..he ...broke horns...anyone willing to arc ring and SnS xD

[Carapace]

thanks for all the feedback guys, it's all very important stuff. The notion of converting warriors into a hybrid of debuff/tank is certainly interesting and could provide a new dynamic that shy's away from the typical "tank" stereotype.

Good thoughts, in the meantime we'll try and make any zone improvements moving forward a bit more interesting. Certainly newer content could have the smaller pulls with more strategy involved that required the different classes for example, compared to the previous zones of typically a "more dudes" mentality. the thread has not fallen on deaf ears, thanks again!

[Ardbeg]

thanks for all the feedback guys, it's all very important stuff. The notion of converting warriors into a hybrid of debuff/tank is certainly interesting and could provide a new dynamic that shy's away from the typical "tank" stereotype.

Good thoughts, in the meantime we'll try and make any zone improvements moving forward a bit more interesting. Certainly newer content could have the smaller pulls with more strategy involved that required the different classes for example, compared to the previous zones of typically a "more dudes" mentality. the thread has not fallen on deaf ears, thanks again!

thank you for listening. the implications of this are a lot bigger then just map design. for example the lb runs during events: all classes have separate leaderboards. but the tanks with the most dps friends win, as lb running rogues can t be bothered with tanks. this brings tons of drama in all guilds. it surely can t be resolved by map design alone, but has to be kept in mind by all design decisions, especially skill system revision.

[ueveotadeo]

thanks for all the feedback guys, it's all very important stuff. The notion of converting warriors into a hybrid of debuff/tank is certainly interesting and could provide a new dynamic that shy's away from the typical "tank" stereotype.

Good thoughts, in the meantime we'll try and make any zone improvements moving forward a bit more interesting. Certainly newer content could have the smaller pulls with more strategy involved that required the different classes for example, compared to the previous zones of typically a "more dudes" mentality. the thread has not fallen on deaf ears, thanks again!

Thank you for listening!

[Xorrior]

thanks for all the feedback guys, it's all very important stuff. The notion of converting warriors into a hybrid of debuff/tank is certainly interesting and could provide a new dynamic that shy's away from the typical "tank" stereotype.

Good thoughts, in the meantime we'll try and make any zone improvements moving forward a bit more interesting. Certainly newer content could have the smaller pulls with more strategy involved that required the different classes for example, compared to the previous zones of typically a "more dudes" mentality. the thread has not fallen on deaf ears, thanks again!

I am happy to read that you're thinking in the lines of a debuff tank. Thank you Carapace. Perhaps also a little thought on how you can prevent rogue gangs running amok in future content and elite. Make the rogues require mages and tanks. If I was creating elite content for next expansion, I would add something that would nullify the OP of 3-4 rogue gang.

It isn't a secret that OP rogue owners will rant/whinge to have content nerfed until 4 of them can run it easy, and then all of a sudden they will stop the ranting and whinging - and then milk the content for all it's worth!

[Carapace]

the things in discussion here are beginning to run deeper than the scope of what is being addressed at the moment, however we will keep the ideas in mind for suture development where applicable.

[Zeus]

thanks for all the feedback guys, it's all very important stuff. The notion of converting warriors into a hybrid of debuff/tank is certainly interesting and could provide a new dynamic that shy's away from the typical "tank" stereotype.

Good thoughts, in the meantime we'll try and make any zone improvements moving forward a bit more interesting. Certainly newer content could have the smaller pulls with more strategy involved that required the different classes for example, compared to the previous zones of typically a "more dudes" mentality. the thread has not fallen on deaf ears, thanks again!


I have a simpler solution that wouldn't require much too many complex changes. Remember Overlord or Trash Heap?

In PL, the way class relevance was determined was through bosses. Often times, there would be a shield or some sort of barrier that a boss would put up that could only be removed by using a skill of a specific class. Moving forward and perhaps incorporating this into planar tombs, do exactly that. Perhaps an enrage feature and only applying CS keeps that feature at bay. Of course, there can be other tactics or skills required to take down a boss.

Thoughts?

[Kakashis]

This is the first MMO I've ever played where the sorc isn't allowed to use heal in elites because it gets you killed.

My suggestion is to remove a rogue's +250% crit damage. They can still do it, but only by the following:

Give sorcs a buffing skill that grants warriors a magical power to debuff enemies, and if and only if these enemies have been debuffed by this way, can the rogue actually achieve back their +250% crit damage.

This way, you encourage mixed class teams and the runs are the fastest when doing so. Yes it's kind of like taking away your candy, but if warriors can't mana Regen or so HOR anymore, I think this would be a positive thing.

[Zeus]

This is the first MMO I've ever played where the sorc isn't allowed to use heal in elites because it gets you killed. My suggestion is give sorcs a buffing skill that allows warriors magical powers to debuff, if and only when enemies are warrior specifically debuffed would the boss/enemy be subject to the +250% crit bonus damage.

This way, you encourage mixed class teams and the runs are the fastest when doing so. Yes it's kind of like taking away your candy, but if warriors can't mana Regen or so HOR anymore, I think this would be a positive thing.

That's a great idea but that would involve changing the way classes work. Personally, I like it, however, I think a solution they're going for is something that adds warriors being a requirement to run but do not take away from the way classes currently function, no?

[Leambow]

I have got to see this new map layout

[Leambow]

Wow literally a second after I started running I see how spread out they are, I agree with the others wars this is killing the need for tanks

[Kakashis]

That's a great idea but that would involve changing the way classes work. Personally, I like it, however, I think a solution they're going for is something that adds warriors being a requirement to run but do not take away from the way classes currently function, no?

I was revising my post as you quoted Hehe, in essence all 3 classes would play the same as they do now. The only thing it would change is that a team of 4 rogues probably won't be as fast as a mixed 3 class team. In essence, it would encourage the way the game was meant to be played. Imagine a team of 4 rogues that just aren't doing the crit damage!

It makes sense too, warrior is able to open a weak spot on enemies with help of mage boost, and the rogue can actually hit the weak spot!

[GoodSyntax]

Nooooo......my solos!

[Kriticality]

I was revising my post as you quoted Hehe, in essence all 3 classes would play the same as they do now. The only thing it would change is that a team of 4 rogues probably won't be as fast as a mixed 3 class team. In essence, it would encourage the way the game was meant to be played. Imagine a team of 4 rogues that just aren't doing the crit damage!

It makes sense too, warrior is able to open a weak spot on enemies with help of mage boost, and the rogue can actually hit the weak spot!

Take away all crit damage? Of just the bonus crit damage? Even regular crit damage with 4 rogues would be faster than mixed party no?

[Kakashis]

Nooooo......my solos!

Hehe, you can still solo it'll just take you an hour and a half!


Take away all crit damage? Of just the bonus crit damage? Even regular crit damage with 4 rogues would be faster than mixed party no?

Well, the 250% bonus AS should never happen in a party of 4 rogues anymore and is the most lethal, but if that's not enough, keep removing bonuses!

[Jirikjurasek]

All of this "force to all class in party" are bad idea in the end. I like to run with friends and what should we do when Madnex "maximum of 2 per class" will be implemented and I want to go with 3 the same class?

Only maul users with 50% armor debuf are usefull in elites now, in the end I find myself that the most usefull thing what I can do in elites is pray for proc. Get that debuff into skill and allow Vengefull Blood and Juggernaut to be party buff in PvE

[ueveotadeo]

Well, the 250% bonus AS should never happen in a party of 4 rogues anymore and is the most lethal, but if that's not enough, keep removing bonuses!

I hope that with the so long announced and promised new Skill System STS will be able to balance things out....

[Wevaxa]

I still think tanks and mages are needed in elite wilds plus It will be useful for boss later on