Regarding Class Balance.

[Madnex]

Many threads on it, many inaccuracies repeated over and over, much fuss being made. The cause of this? The "issue" that sorcerers cannot stand on their own as well as the other two classes. Which, as explained below, actually makes sense if you look at the bigger picture:

-The warrior, as tank, is designed to be able to sustain large amounts of damage, meant for the whole party not just himself. So of course, on a 1v1 scenario that amount seems like a lot to go through, especially if the warrior uses his skills efficiently. Plus, he's equipped with a very effective single-target feebling skill.

-The rogue, with the lack of an actual defense skill and invulnerability period like the other two classes, is solely focused on huge amounts of damage dealt through critical hits. Again, it's only natural that if you are going to face off 1v1 with a class whose damage skills are all meant for dealing with one opponent at a time (and yours aren't), you'll be at a disadvantage.

-And then there's the sorcerer, whose majority of damage skills are designed for mass control and thus their efficiency versus a single target is reasonably limited. But instead he performs much better in group fights through the use of his AoE stun, AoE debuff and AoE healing for the whole party. Equipped with a multitude of stun and root effects that if timed, they can completely disable an opponent and kill him without even a scratch (the majority of which is reasonably nerfed in PvP to prevent cheesing other players like PvE mobs). And lastly, a shield which temporarily gives them the survivability of a warrior and a lighting skill that allows for a portion of rogue's high crit damage to be available.


Overall, I do not understand why sorcerer users expect to win in 1v1 situations squaring off against a warrior or rogue, more often and easier than they already do. AL was designed as a multiplayer game in both PvE and PvP aspects so all three classes were made to complement each other and that cannot be achieved if you flatten out all three of them to achieve "balance" - there are situations where each of the three are best and worst at. And it's not even as if it's currently impossible to beat a rogue or warrior 1v1, at least at L41 (since warrior skills' STR amounts for whatever reason did not scale, making twink warriors overpowered and barely sustaining warriors at endgame, but that's another topic).

The point is, PvP not being played in the way that it was meant to be played --TEAM Deathmatch, Capture the Flag(traditionally a TEAM vs TEAM game)-- is not sufficient enough of a reason to demand a buff on the sorcerer class in order to perform better on situations that they were NATURALLY designed to be weak against.

This is not based on an opinion, it's based on facts of the current game design. Constructive comments are welcome but the primary reasoning of making this thread was to make a point. That's all.

[Artoholics]

THANKS !!!! Finally somebody understand it. Mages aren't fast killer with huge damage or tankers...they are supporters. And even without ice mages can support their team enough with fireball, stunning lightning, gale and curse...theyre made for gw. There they are just op.

[Leonut]

The person who post this obviously never played a real mmorpg with real pvp.

[Artoholics]

...

[Appeltjes]

The person who post this obviously never played a real mmorpg with real pvp.

Yes you indeed never did.

[Kriticality]

+1 Been saying this all along. Class balance is the issue of making all classes important in their own ways in PVE and PVP. It's the same reason that tanks asking for rogue damage is silly. I do think some skill revision should be done as it relates to buff/debuff aspects in PVE for tanks. I also think mages shield could use a little tweaking. These changes should occur with a primary focus of mixed class parties working well together and a bit more survivability for mages.

For mages, as I've said before, an increase in invulnerability to 3 secs and replace knock back with stun/movement impairment immunity seems like a subtle but very powerful buff. I'm not quite as familiar with the warrior class. End game, well geared warriors and mages can be VERY good in PVP. Tanks need PVE buff as it relates to the entire party.

I agree 100% with you about what class balance actually means. It does not mean that all classes should be equal in 1 v 1. It means that all classes should be important in their own way for well balanced, mixed party fun.

[ClumsyCactus]

The person who post this obviously never played a real mmorpg with real pvp.


Yes you indeed never did.

OOOOOOOH GET R.E.K.T

Anyway, someone Else that FINALLY agrees with me, It's really more about the classes separate SUPPOSED Uses.
To take an example, is it not logical that rogues, the Class DESIGNED to kill single targets such as bosses, are strong in PVP one against one?
And that the mage class should be useful in clashes instead, and therefore LOGICALLY be Inferior to a rogue at dealing one target damage? The Only thing there that needs to be discussed is how great mages are in clashes, wich might be bad, i dont know,but if it is,the thing that needs to be improved is propably how stuns work and how Easy mages are to kill (wich,for shield users, got a buff YEY)
And as for warriors.
I am not planning to go into a Clash without a warrior anytime soon. Nuff Said

[Candylicks]

With the new imbued mage sets they are pretty freaking OP right now too. Have you tried to kill Shinytoy in PvP before? Dude just won't die.

[Zeus]

The person who post this obviously never played a real mmorpg with real pvp.

Team death match.

Capture the Flag

They are both team games. Until there is a 1v1 room, it's clear the classes weren't designed to be pitted against each other in a 1v1.

I do agree that Mages need some sort of buff for 1v1, but the fact is the game isn't dssigned for it. So, if that's going to happen, their usefulness in clash should be decreased. That's fair, no? A good sorcerer can make or break a team.

[EQT]

Well I had a l17 mage, I could best a max l17 tank but I needed to use 3 damage skills and heal (also in addition a stun pet like breeze), sacrificing of my shield. I wouldn't mind if they decreased damage reduction of the shield and buffed the actual armor instead. It might be a bit of a hassle for them but yeah that's my opinion.

[Ardbeg]

unfortunately the AP system isn t designed for this team effort, which not only ruined ctf as intended, but is also a major source of frustration with the class balance.

[Kingofninjas]

With the new imbued mage sets they are pretty freaking OP right now too. Have you tried to kill Shinytoy in PvP before? Dude just won't die.

Shinynab will die :) Just gotta jump him with his shield down or stall till his shield drops if you dont want to try breaking it and then bam! 1 hit.

[Starkinea]

Many threads on it, many inaccuracies repeated over and over, much fuss being made. The cause of this? The "issue" that sorcerers cannot stand on their own as well as the other two classes. Which, as explained below, actually makes sense if you look at the bigger picture:

-The warrior, as tank, is designed to be able to sustain large amounts of damage, meant for the whole party not just himself. So of course, on a 1v1 scenario that amount seems like a lot to go through, especially if the warrior uses his skills efficiently. Plus, he's equipped with a very effective single-target feebling skill.

-The rogue, with the lack of an actual defense skill and invulnerability period like the other two classes, is solely focused on huge amounts of damage dealt through critical hits. Again, it's only natural that if you are going to face off 1v1 with a class whose damage skills are all meant for dealing with one opponent at a time (and yours aren't), you'll be at a disadvantage.

-And then there's the sorcerer, whose majority of damage skills are designed for mass control and thus their efficiency versus a single target is reasonably limited. But instead he performs much better in group fights through the use of his AoE stun, AoE debuff and AoE healing for the whole party. Equipped with a multitude of stun and root effects that if timed, they can completely disable an opponent and kill him without even a scratch (the majority of which is reasonably nerfed in PvP to prevent cheesing other players like PvE mobs). And lastly, a shield which temporarily gives them the survivability of a warrior and a lighting skill that allows for a portion of rogue's high crit damage to be available.


Overall, I do not understand why sorcerer users expect to win in 1v1 situations squaring off against a warrior or rogue, more often and easier than they already do. AL was designed as a multiplayer game in both PvE and PvP aspects so all three classes were made to complement each other and that cannot be achieved if you flatten out all three of them to achieve "balance" - there are situations where each of the three are best and worst at. And it's not even as if it's currently impossible to beat a rogue or warrior 1v1, at least at L41 (since warrior skills' STR amounts for whatever reason did not scale, making twink warriors overpowered and barely sustaining warriors at endgame, but that's another topic).

The point is, PvP not being played in the way that it was meant to be played --TEAM Deathmatch, Capture the Flag(traditionally a TEAM vs TEAM game)-- is not sufficient enough of a reason to demand a buff on the sorcerer class in order to perform better on situations that they were NATURALLY designed to be weak against.

This is not based on an opinion, it's based on facts of the current game design. Constructive comments are welcome but the primary reasoning of making this thread was to make a point. That's all.
Puts like for the length of the post ;p


Sent from outer space

[Trollish]

Yes you indeed never did.

Again, find something better to do than pick on people.

[PlzNoRush]

Again, find something better to do than pick on people.

thank you for standing up for this community. We need more people like you.

[Trollish]

thank you for standing up for this community. We need more people like you.

Glad to be of service. Lel

[obee]

Spot on. People need to play the actual game, and they won't complain.

[octavos]

so maybe pvp should be class specific (just like leader boards are right now)...but seems to me rouges need to face other rouges..warriors vs warriors..and mags vs mages lol. but in team death match and other aspects of pvp..there has to be a way to combat effectively no matter what character you are. each class has there + and -...so yea..maybe having an arena just dedicated to class fights another to a brawl with any class...then it would be a war on how well geared you are..but atm AL thats the name of the game thanks to arcane rarity items.

but meh...im all talk and no pvp..well not on this game anyway lol.

[Awesomazing]

Many threads on it, many inaccuracies repeated over and over, much fuss being made. The cause of this? The "issue" that sorcerers cannot stand on their own as well as the other two classes. Which, as explained below, actually makes sense if you look at the bigger picture:

-The warrior, as tank, is designed to be able to sustain large amounts of damage, meant for the whole party not just himself. So of course, on a 1v1 scenario that amount seems like a lot to go through, especially if the warrior uses his skills efficiently. Plus, he's equipped with a very effective single-target feebling skill.

-The rogue, with the lack of an actual defense skill and invulnerability period like the other two classes, is solely focused on huge amounts of damage dealt through critical hits. Again, it's only natural that if you are going to face off 1v1 with a class whose damage skills are all meant for dealing with one opponent at a time (and yours aren't), you'll be at a disadvantage.

-And then there's the sorcerer, whose majority of damage skills are designed for mass control and thus their efficiency versus a single target is reasonably limited. But instead he performs much better in group fights through the use of his AoE stun, AoE debuff and AoE healing for the whole party. Equipped with a multitude of stun and root effects that if timed, they can completely disable an opponent and kill him without even a scratch (the majority of which is reasonably nerfed in PvP to prevent cheesing other players like PvE mobs). And lastly, a shield which temporarily gives them the survivability of a warrior and a lighting skill that allows for a portion of rogue's high crit damage to be available.


Overall, I do not understand why sorcerer users expect to win in 1v1 situations squaring off against a warrior or rogue, more often and easier than they already do. AL was designed as a multiplayer game in both PvE and PvP aspects so all three classes were made to complement each other and that cannot be achieved if you flatten out all three of them to achieve "balance" - there are situations where each of the three are best and worst at. And it's not even as if it's currently impossible to beat a rogue or warrior 1v1, at least at L41 (since warrior skills' STR amounts for whatever reason did not scale, making twink warriors overpowered and barely sustaining warriors at endgame, but that's another topic).

The point is, PvP not being played in the way that it was meant to be played --TEAM Deathmatch, Capture the Flag(traditionally a TEAM vs TEAM game)-- is not sufficient enough of a reason to demand a buff on the sorcerer class in order to perform better on situations that they were NATURALLY designed to be weak against.

This is not based on an opinion, it's based on facts of the current game design. Constructive comments are welcome but the primary reasoning of making this thread was to make a point. That's all.

Yes, yes and yes I agree with you. You understand and get the idea many did not, gratz you see what others don't.

[Bellaelda]

I'm sorry, but one class should be evenly balanced with with the others...
We are all designed to have DIFFERENT strengths and weaknesses YES, but having one class over shadow the others is not how mmo games are meant to be played.

Sry but other wise everyone would just play the BEST class
Which has become the case for many here already

[debitmandiri]

Buff mage until they can 1 shot tank pls...

[eonziggys]

If we follow this guy posted no one will play mage anymore and become full of rogue and warrior even on clash mage always getting heart attack coz warrior and rogue keep their target most of the time to sorcerer. Pvp need to balance..so frustrating to play sorcerer now.

[Madnex]

I'm sorry, but one class should be evenly balanced with with the others...
We are all designed to have DIFFERENT strengths and weaknesses YES, but having one class over shadow the others is not how mmo games are meant to be played.

Sry but other wise everyone would just play the BEST class
Which has become the case for many here already
There's no overshadowing here, just inexperience. As previously mentioned, sorcerer requires the most effort to understand and handle since it's the most technical class to play and be effective with. If you're not, you're either lacking gear, skill, build or experience.

Here's an example of the healthy part of the class balance chain:
-Three rogues will most likely lose to 2 rogues, one sorcerer.
-Two rogues, one sorcerer will most likely lose to one warrior, one rogue, one sorcerer.

-Two rogues will most likely lose to one rogue, one sorcerer.
-One rogue, one sorcerer has an equal chance of beating one warrior, one sorcerer.

Here's an example of the unhealthy part of the class balance chain:
-Three warriors will most likely win against any combination of three players.
-Three sorcerers will most likely win against three rogues.

These examples exclude gear and experience differences or the luck-based game changers like maul proc or certain pets' panic/terrify abilities(yet another part of the game based on sheer luck) or terrain advantages.


If we follow this guy posted no one will play mage anymore and become full of rogue and warrior even on clash mage always getting heart attack coz warrior and rogue keep their target most of the time to sorcerer. Pvp need to balance..so frustrating to play sorcerer now.
There are no guidelines to follow or anything of the sort, these are conclusions drawn from facts. Whether you understand that or not.

[obee]

There's no overshadowing here, just inexperience. As previously mentioned, sorcerer requires the most effort to understand and handle since it's the most technical class to play and be effective with. If you're not, you're either lacking gear, skill, build or experience.

Here's an example of the healthy part of the class balance chain:
-Three rogues will most likely lose to 2 rogues, one sorcerer.
-Two rogues, one sorcerer will most likely lose to one warrior, one rogue, one sorcerer.

-Two rogues will most likely lose to one rogue, one sorcerer.
-One rogue, one sorcerer has an equal chance of beating one warrior, one sorcerer.

Here's an example of the unhealthy part of the class balance chain:
-Three warriors will most likely win against any combination of three players.
-Three sorcerers will most likely win against three rogues.

These examples exclude gear and experience differences or the luck-based game changers like maul proc or certain pets' panic/terrify abilities(yet another part of the game based on sheer luck) or terrain advantages.


There are no guidelines to follow or anything of the sort, these are conclusions drawn from facts. Whether you understand that or not.
And the thing is, you rarely see 3 warriors on each time. People usually leave those games. Just like you said, if people played CTF the right way, this whole PVP thing would be fine.

[Energizeric]

Team death match.

Capture the Flag

They are both team games. Until there is a 1v1 room, it's clear the classes weren't designed to be pitted against each other in a 1v1.

I do agree that Mages need some sort of buff for 1v1, but the fact is the game isn't dssigned for it. So, if that's going to happen, their usefulness in clash should be decreased. That's fair, no? A good sorcerer can make or break a team.

The problem is I have yet to see any stats or banners given out for being a good teammate or being a good support class. Last time I checked they only give banners for kills and flags. I have suggested in the past that there be some sort of team based stats, but STS has chosen not go in that direction. So until there is some sort of leaderboard that I can land on by being an excellent support class, then I am going to complain about the items that I am ranked on.

And yes, it is correct that sorcerers in PvE rely on their stuns. So in PvP they have for the most part been nerfed. I think pehaps that needs to be reexamined. Obviously they cannot be as powerful as in PvE, but for example, maybe Frost should not freeze the enemy in PvP, but perhaps the slowing should be slightly more extreme than it is. Maybe even only slightly more extreme, but if they were to make very tiny changes in that direction with a couple of sorcerer skills, I think balance could be achieved.

[obee]

The problem is I have yet to see any stats or banners given out for being a good teammate or being a good support class. Last time I checked they only give banners for kills and flags. I have suggested in the past that there be some sort of team based stats, but STS has chosen not go in that direction. So until there is some sort of leaderboard that I can land on by being an excellent support class, then I am going to complain about the items that I am ranked on.
You can't really give AP's for being a good teammate. Honestly, people would actually play if they weren't blinded by AP's and leaderboard.

[Leonut]

A real pvp system is not a rock paper scissors crap. You idea or understanding of pvp is entirely built on this and sadly limited.

This thread is not meant to pick on your limited knowledge in pvp beyond AL's pvp. Just highlighting to have a broader mind and see something for what it is and not what it is trying to represent. Goes a long way in life. Heck in fact it's what drives you forward in your career and all.

I believe if STG really cared for AL to be a pvp game it would never have been built and left it this way. Thus, I have already pointed out many times that STG just threw in a fake pvp platform to gain completeness in its claim as a full mmo.

[Transfordark]

Let me guess the person who posted this is a rogue...Rogues everywhere!

[sevenpain]

Dont need to buff mage
just nerf rogue problem solve

[nevercan]

Dont need to buff mage
just nerf rogue problem solve
Yea

Wel if rouge can reach olmost the same hp and armor as tank and tank is in pvp only needed for his heal is that clas balance?
In clash a mage his shield is down a rouge get an clear shot and the mage is gone
A tank? Thats not more then 2-3 combos for an rouge.

[Kriticality]

Rogues can on shot rogues too. We don't get a shield. Seems like these claims are misplaced. It's not about armor/damage/hp. It's about skill system and team buff/debuff. Rogues are nerfed. I lose 120 dmg from PVE. I'm almost positive Seven has more health, crit, and damage than me, esp in PVP. I'm imbued set of will and planar pendant, just FYI.

Here's my stats in PVP

121267

[Madnex]

A real pvp system is not a rock paper scissors crap. You idea or understanding of pvp is entirely built on this and sadly limited.

This thread is not meant to pick on your limited knowledge in pvp beyond AL's pvp. Just highlighting to have a broader mind and see something for what it is and not what it is trying to represent. Goes a long way in life. Heck in fact it's what drives you forward in your career and all.

I believe if STG really cared for AL to be a pvp game it would never have been built and left it this way. Thus, I have already pointed out many times that STG just threw in a fake pvp platform to gain completeness in its claim as a full mmo.
Do not confuse your own incompetence and lack of skill/experience as an issue of the whole sorcerer class. My statements and comments are made on facts and examples, you're just aimlessly talking bitterly without bringing up neither. And BTW, that's a post not a thread. Lastly, the STS team has already mentioned their focus is not PvP at the moment anyway, no news there. They've done an adequate job either way; not to say that it could not be improved by a lot with a few small tweaks, though.

Let me guess the person who posted this is a rogue...Rogues everywhere!
As previously mentioned, I've been familiar and kept playing sorcerer for four whole seasons while rogue just one so this argument is really baseless.

Dont need to buff mage
just nerf rogue problem solve
Perhaps you need to review your skill build and timing. It's plain hilarious that as rogue I'm having a harder time beating sorcerers with half your OP gear.


Well if rouge can reach almost the same hp and armor as tank and tank is in pvp only needed for his heal is that clas balance?
In clash a mage his shield is down a rouge get an clear shot and the mage is gone
A tank? Thats not more then 2-3 combos for an rouge.
This is exactly what I said about inaccuracies. With Imbued gear, rogues can barely reach 1.8k armor while warriors in Imbued are well over 2.3k (both with arcane ring and durable passive). Concerning the HP, maxed-out sorcerers are reaching 5.4-5.6k HP which is a little higher than bow rogues can reach. Bring up a specific example if you want to make that argument and make sure it's on the same gear and rarity tier (eg. do not compare mythic with imbued or mythic ring sorc with arcane ring rogue or non-L41-mythic amulet sorc with L41-amulet rogue).

[Sodaisgood]

I want to rip my hair out reading some of these posts.

Yes team death match has the word team in it. Cool observation. it is not setup/played as such so point is moot. Mmo PVP should be balanced and skill based period. look at any real mmorpg. It's not rocket science.
Sorc is not a supporter, it's a class, simple. I personally believe skill should ALWAYS determine outcomes in PVP.

As a customer who has spent a lot. I would truely appreciate if the devs can FOR THEIR SELF look at the balance issue in pvp. It should be pretty clear.

Warriors and rouges will continue to dance around the subject with biased opinions.

[nevercan]

Rogues can on shot rogues too. We don't get a shield. Seems like these claims are misplaced. It's not about armor/damage/hp. It's about skill system and team buff/debuff. Rogues are nerfed. I lose 120 dmg from PVE. I'm almost positive Seven has more health, crit, and damage than me, esp in PVP. I'm imbued set of will and planar pendant, just FYI.

Here's my stats in PVP

121267
Use nekro or 41 mythc daggers theres your shield, wait? Shield is sorcers skil right?


Do not confuse your own incompetence and lack of skill/experience as an issue of the whole sorcerer class. My statements and comments are made on facts and examples, you're just aimlessly talking bitterly without bringing up neither. And BTW, that's a post not a thread. Lastly, the STS team has already mentioned their focus is not PvP at the moment anyway, no news there. They've done an adequate job either way; not to say that it could not be improved by a lot with a few small tweaks, though.

As previously mentioned, I've been familiar and kept playing sorcerer for four whole seasons while rogue just one so this argument is really baseless.

Perhaps you need to review your skill build and timing. It's plain hilarious that as rogue I'm having a harder time beating sorcerers with half your OP gear.

This is exactly what I said about inaccuracies. With Imbued gear, rogues can barely reach 1.8k armor while warriors in Imbued are well over 2.3k (both with arcane ring and durable passive). Concerning the HP, maxed-out sorcerers are reaching 5.4-5.6k HP which is a little higher than bow rogues can reach. Bring up a specific example if you want to make that argument and make sure it's on the same gear and rarity tier (eg. do not compare mythic with imbued or mythic ring sorc with arcane ring rogue or non-L41-mythic amulet sorc with L41-amulet rogue).
parhaps you where dreaming when you saw an mage with 6k hp.

[Kriticality]

Use nekro or 41 mythc daggers theres your shield, wait? Shield is sorcers skil right?

What does that mean? So I can get a shield with nekro and mages can have 2 shields in a row?

[Sodaisgood]

Seriously cmon can people use anything other then a complete maxed mages stats on paper. It means nothing. Minus ring I'm complete yet I have to mash buttons to beat a rouge or warrior rocking 500k gear(yes I hardly pvp in this game) but cmon get real.


Yes there are some great mage pvpers who are skilled in skill/pet/gear switching and timing to just get by. Yet the other classes stand immobile clicking two skill and usually win? Makes sense to me! :D. keep up all the great unbiased suggestions.

[Madnex]

Use nekro or 41 mythc daggers theres your shield, wait? Shield is sorcers skil right?
Irrelevant. Pets provide the very same stat boosts to both sorcerers and rogues. Using daggers is a choice that only offers barely 200 more HP and ~5% crit in exchange of around 65 damage.

If you're going to compare weapons with procs granted then I guess it's OK to assume the 25% armor debuff from elon rifle is always there, right? Well, no, that's not how comparing works.

perhaps you where dreaming when you saw an mage with 6k hp.
It reads 5.4 to 5.6 - I'm not sure where exactly you saw the 6k, unless you don't know what a digit group separator is.


@beer:
Re-read the first post, again. Sorcerers are designed to be at a disadvantage in 1v1.

[Skeokateva]

Sorc is not a supporter, it's a class, simple. I personally believe skill should ALWAYS determine outcomes in PVP.


Thank you

[Limsi]

121268

[Titanfall]

The problem is all you sorcerers and warriors are trying so hard to play like a rogue, YOU'RE NOT A ROGUE! Sorcerers weren't designed to win 1v1s they were designed for team play, have you all forgotten what the word 'team' means? Everyone's been brain washed now that 'Oh I'm a sorc I just lost a 1v1 that clearly means sorcerers need a buff'. Why don't you try playing as a 'Team' playing your individual roles? Instead of trying to act like a rogue in a smurfs body? Your classes weren't designed to win 1v1s.

[Yumisa]

Another thing is that nearlly EVERYONE complains about ''ganging''...This is one of the most stupid dramas i hear about everyday...I think everyone should be meant to work as a team in pvp and gang whoever they can...If everyone is meant to do that, then no one can complain about 1vs1 rogue is OP or 1vs3 omg stop ganging me or i will call my friends and we will gang you.

[Alhuntrazeck]

Warriors often have higher damage than mages with VB active. This helps them tanking how?

[Bellaelda]

Mages need help in pvp and tanks need help in pve.



Kalizza posted some great ideas on tanks for pve which would seriously help them get back in the game in another post here. This would open up end game pve soo much for tanks and would seriously help the problem with end game tanks getting bored and leaving game or changing class...


The source of the issue is why Tanks aren't really welcomed in party. It all comes down to the fact that Warriors don't save much in the way of ankh (which is the real currency for elite, since pots are just the cost of doing business) because many mobs and bosses one-hit, tank or no tank, yet their presence slow down runs tremendously.

The solution in my mind is to have Warriors deal massive debuffs on armor, hit %, damage, etc. AND strong party buffs. If a Warrior can debuff mobs and bosses enough that there is no appreciable difference in overall run times, AND their presence can save you some pots/ankh, then the entire dynamic of tanking changes. If I can save some pots and ankh but still farm at the same rate, then my preference would be to have a tank. But, when I'm paying 30-40k or 12 plat for DMG, DMG Reduction and Reroll kits every 30 minutes, the Warrior penalty means I get in one or two fewer runs than with a full DPS party, so the cost per run increases by as much as 40%!

Here is an idea on skill upgrades:
VB: Extend buff to entire party
RC: Double the buff time
WM: Extend attack range, mobs/bosses hit get a -30% armor debuff for 6 seconds (10 if charged)
SS: 50% Damage reduction to affected mobs/boss for 6 seconds (10 if charged)
HoR: Panic mobs in range
AT: -30% armor debuff for 6 seconds
CS: 100% interruption of windup on bosses! 100% stun!
Jug: Damage taken while skill is active is also reflected back on the attacking mob/boss


Obviously, these added effects would only apply to PvE, but if these were added, why wouldn't DPS players want to run with tanks?



And basically mages need better stuns or our skills to work (as half of them don't work in pvp), stun immunity and some sort of shield extension as right now people just wait the cpl seconds our shield is up and then bam dead. Mage damage output is not high enough to kill anyone basically before our shield goes down and we dead. There's too many good ideas to fix this that I've seen to pick just one, but they've been promising to fix this for years and years now, and the problem is acknowledged, it just keeps getting postponed again and again...
Most end game pvp makes have just given up game or changed class as well.

Apparently other classes just don't matter enough for them to finally get either of these things addressed as the community has been addressing these problems for years.

Gg... Have fun enjoying both pve and pvp rogues of AL

The rest of the population will just sit on the sidelines and be bored

[Rx8]

121268

I just cannot explain how this has made MY WEEKEND GO AL IZZ WELL!

[Schnitzel]

I've been playing BC lately (I know this is AL discussion, but let me explain)

What I've been doing in battles is sending Tanks first (They don't do very much damage, but can take a lot of damage, and can keep enemy defenses attacking them)
behind the Tanks, I send the Spies (not a lot of health/armor, but a lot of damage)
behind the Spies, I send my other troops (Medics, drones, cyborgs, etc.) more than 3/4 of the time, I win battles. (others are because i forgot the enemy anti-air defenses)

Why are you talking about BC?
What if the AL Warriors were like the BC Tanks (Not too much damage, but a lot of health so they could take the damage)
AL Rogues were like the BC Spies (very high damage, but low health/armor)
AL Sorcerers were like the other troops (Medium damage, a little more health/armor than rogues)

So whats the point?
This would mean that Warriors are required to take the damage from enemies, but because of their low damage, Rogues are required in the PT to deal damage, but because Rogues have low health/armor, they require Warriors to keep them alive; all while Sorcerers are helping deal damage as well as supporting warriors and rogues by killing a few enemies and adding health/mana to the warriors and rogues.

Your Thoughts?

[Kriticality]

Right now with max gear characters from high to low

Armor : tank, rogue, mage

Health : tank, mage, rogue

Damage : mage, rogue, tank

[Migzorille]

And the thing is, you rarely see 3 warriors on each time. People usually leave those games. Just like you said, if people played CTF the right way, this whole PVP thing would be fine.

I saw once a game of 5 warriors on one side and 2 warriors,2rougues and 1 mage on other side

[Caabatric]

Right now with max gear characters from high to low

Armor : tank, rogue, mage

Health : tank, mage, rogue

Damage : mage, rogue, tank
Going by stat screen yes, by actual damage output rogues do more damage.

Looking at the new gems caraspace is making and the expectancy of a new skill system, I would say mages don't really need the buff.

[Migzorille]

Right now with max gear characters from high to low

Armor : tank, rogue, mage

Health : tank, mage, rogue

Damage : mage, rogue, tank

In paper mages have higher damage but with crit counted rougues can do bigger damage

[Kriticality]

Lightning has 250% crit damage too. The point of the post was to focus balance in skills. I lose 120 damage from my screen 657 damage to 537 in pvp. I also have 1734 armor and for Mages that think an armor buff will help them, they are wrong. I still get 1 shot sometimes. Again, extend shield invulnerability to 3 secs and give 4-5 secs stun immunity to mage shield and take away knockback. Easy buff, doesn't sound like much but it would be significant for sure. 50% crit Mages can easily fireball lightning me in one combo. I also have 4400 health. Some of the issue is that I think more rogues are max geared than Mages too. They are by no means weak. Mages complaining about being one shot is very prominent in rogue on rogue violence as well. Rogue and mage generally target opposing rogue first. The I get one shot when my shield goes down doesn't hold much weight imo. I can get one shot almost anytime unless I have a tank or hide behind a mage with shield up.

[nevercan]

Right now with max gear characters from high to low

Armor : tank, rogue, mage

Health : tank, mage, rogue

Damage : mage, rogue, tank
Mages have les hp then rouges same as dmg just letting you know.

[Hispie]

Warriors are too op at low levels.

[Hispie]

Also they got more damage than rogues as well as hp and armor.

[Kriticality]

Mages have les hp then rouges same as dmg just letting you know.

As my post says with max geared characters you are incorrect. Rogues sit around 5k hp whereas Mages reach closer to 5.5k hp. Rogues can just break 800 damage with full paragem and 3 eye setup in pve. Mages can reach 900+ in pve AND pvp. Of course if the pets carry 10% dmg bonus then in pvp rogues sit ~20% lower damage in pvp as what you see in town. You have any non elixir pics you can share?

[nevercan]

As my post says with max geared characters you are incorrect. Rogues sit around 5k hp whereas Mages reach closer to 5.5k hp. Rogues can just break 800 damage with full paragem and 3 eye setup in pve. Mages can reach 900+ in pve AND pvp. Of course if the pets carry 10% dmg bonus then in pvp rogues sit ~20% lower damage in pvp as what you see in town. You have any non elixir pics you can share?
Try a max geared rouge 1 aimed at a tank without crit and let the maz geared mage do a lightning, rouge wil definitely do more dmg
And rouges dmg nerf is 15% not 20%

[Kriticality]

My damage nerf is 657 to 537. ~18%. You are talking about skills, not raw damage. If you're saying aimed is better than lightning all things included, I agree.
My mage has 540 dmg. Light is 995-1244
My rogue has 537 in pvp. Aimed is 947-1183.
With armor debuff aimed is better skill.

[nevercan]

My damage nerf is 657 to 537. ~18%. You are talking about skills, not raw damage. If you're saying aimed is better than lightning all things included, I agree.
My mage has 540 dmg. Light is 995-1244
My rogue has 537 in pvp. Aimed is 947-1183.
With armor debuff aimed is better skill.
Even without armor debuf.

[Murveil]

I have played both mage and rogue in pvp. I sometimes find playing as a mage is easier then being a rogue. As a rogue I get oneshoted by other rogues as well as stunned and killed by mages instantly. As a rogue I don't feel as safe as when I play with my mage with the shield. I don't care about OP gears. If you want to kill a better geared player just spend the same amount of time or money the other person spent playing this game. Don't compare op geared player to a normal geared player. Thats just plain stupid and shows how ignorant you are. As a player who played all 3 class at 41 lvl (PvP), and al of them had myth/arcane weap and myth sets \, I think there really is no need for any debuffs or buffs for any class in PvP aspect. As a mage I could kill wars with myth gear and weap as well as win in a 1v1 against rogues.

[Kriticality]

Even without armor debuf.

I'm not sure your point. Rogues are supposed to deal most damage to single targets. Mages have more hp and damage as I said before. You refuted and I see no evidence. Aimed shot is better than light. It's silly that all these numbers are thrown out without proof. Show me a rogue max gear end game that has more hp and damage than arry or voorg or seven. Who are you referring to when you correct me? Mages pvp situation is not nearly as dire as some Mages here would have you believe. Tanks pve situation at end game is a lot worse imo. Geared mages at end game are op. 50% crit on mage? They have more crit, damage, health, and close armor as mythic set/arcane ring rogues. They have more crit, damage, health and less armor than imbued/arcane ring rogues. There are no rogues in pvp that have more in all categories than Mages.
There should be some adjustments to be made in skills I agree, but stats are not the answer. Pics or it didn't happen. I'm happy to retract my opinion if there is proof otherwise. Maybe there is a rogue I haven't seen before.

[Zynzyn]

We dont need one class to do what another class does or get the abilities and stats of other classes. Our skills and stats are designed according to our classic roles and we have our strengths and weaknesses. What we need is a chance to play together and be an effective team. Talking about pvp, we must not forget that tdm and ctf are team oriented games which require the classes to play together. But for the 3 classes to have a will to play together instead of doing class vs class matches and comparing one class with another, we need an incentive to play together.

That being said, I believe sts should give us team wins and losses score for ctf and tdm (since they are obviously team games) instead of a personal kill/death record. And secondly, give us a same class-same level dueling arena and a personal kill death score for that dueling arena so that mage can vs mage and rogue can vs rogue and tank can vs tank only.

[Caabatric]

I'm not sure your point. Rogues are supposed to deal most damage to single targets. Mages have more hp and damage as I said before. You refuted and I see no evidence. Aimed shot is better than light. It's silly that all these numbers are thrown out without proof. Show me a rogue max gear end game that has more hp and damage than arry or voorg or seven. Who are you referring to when you correct me? Mages pvp situation is not nearly as dire as some Mages here would have you believe. Tanks pve situation at end game is a lot worse imo. Geared mages at end game are op. 50% crit on mage? They have more crit, damage, health, and close armor as mythic set/arcane ring rogues. They have more crit, damage, health and less armor than imbued/arcane ring rogues. There are no rogues in pvp that have more in all categories than Mages.
There should be some adjustments to be made in skills I agree, but stats are not the answer. Pics or it didn't happen. I'm happy to retract my opinion if there is proof otherwise. Maybe there is a rogue I haven't seen before.

Your comparing rogues with max gear to mages with max gear.

What you dont understand is that the reason the mage imbued gear mages can compare with rogues is because it has given us a major increase in stats in comparison to mythic in the places we mages need it (health, damage). However, most mages are using the mythic gear or even legendary gear. These gear stats compared to a rogue with equal gear will show you why many mages are complaining or at least better justify it.

Also most tanks seem fine in end game. Most tanks with just legendary gear can compete (not always win) with mythic rogues and mages. IMO.

Next you cant look at damage stats but rather skills. Looking at the stat page damage you could easily say that tanks are the best class which can achieve 600+ damage 7,000+ hp, and 2,300+ armor. Still a mage with equal gear and proper skill can probably beat this tank. Looking at skills you see that rogues have the highest damage output skills. That isn't a problem for me as thats what they are meant to do but look at the gap between aim shot and lightning. Aim shot can ko any mage and some rogues. Light on the same rogues and mages may take 30-50% of the health away. Compare many skills between the 2 classes and you will see often rogues triumph.

As you mentioned top gear mages can compete with top gear rogues and wars which makes me confident that sts is paving the way for better class balance but it may take a while for it to go into effect.

[Kriticality]

Mythic rogues are closer to 3700 hp and 1400 armor iirc. I agree that the road is sometimes hard to reach the potential of each class. I was cursing myself soloing tombs to level as a rogue compared to my mage. The only reason I compare max geared classes is because people throw out numbers way higher than what I noted at the beginning of my post here. When people discuss tank rogues. They are most certainly talking about imbued will and/or ring rogues. 1400 armor is mythic rogue. Mages with 1022 armor are as close to rogues mythics as rogues are to 1800 mythic tank armor. I believe the point of all my posts is the same that you are saying. It's not about stats. 1400 armor Mages can be one shot. 1700 armor rogues can be one shot. It is the skills, not the stats. Level 40 players and legendary players are def stepping into the lions den at end game pvp. Prob worse for Mages but a hurdle for every class. Mythic armor Mages should be able to beat legendary rogues and they were before imbued sets came along.

[Kingofninjas]

I think its only natural that rogues own 1 vs 1. Thats what they are built for. What many mages who complain about squishiness do not realize is that mages are NOT the squishiest class. It's rogues. Maxed out mages, as Madnex stated, have more HP that maxed out rogues. Also, in an evenly geared situation, mages shield allows them to tank 1-2 combos depending on the damage and crit rate of the rogue who is shooting. Rogues on the other hand, will die from a single combo and often from a single aimed shot.

I think the reason mages are complaining is that maxed out rogues can absolutely destroy mages are aren't evenly geared, sometimes even killing them in 1 combo through their shield. I agree with them when they say that this should not be happening, even comparing a ring rogue to a mythic mage, they should be able to survive long enough to do what they do best, stunlock.

[goodjuice]

Sorry rouges are way op. On my full mythic sorc w para and I'm get owned all the time by rouges w exp bows and worse. I use a PvP build and have gotten very good at it on my rouge I know what I'm doing but don't stand a chance on my sorc. People seem to think that because of aoe sorcs are useful in a brawl, but if your first aoe doesn't kill people in a brawl u get killed accidentally by your opponents in it. The auction house alone should be able to tell u which class is best at cap. Rogue gear is most expensive because the most competitive players choose to play them, not because they all choose to play them, but because it allows them to be most the effective. In a game where there was any balance the prices for a mythic item for sorc would be about the same for the equivalent rogue or warrior item.

[Madnex]

People, it's really not that complicated. If your gear, skill build and strategy don't suck, you have a pretty good chance to take down the rogue - even without stunlock with pet. Taking down a warrior is considerably harder since they require more than the 5-6 skills that rogues do, inevitably drawing the fight out and giving the chance to more people to join in while the sorcerer is already at a tough spot due to class disadvantage on 1v1 scenario. Just to clarify, to beat a warrior on the same gear tier you will most likely need five skills, with heal as a backup in case the original stunlock fails.

There is also a certain bug that affects sorcerer's fireball stun, rogue's bow stun and pretty much all pets that have a chance to stun (not panic and terrify, those work as intended). The issue is that after the target is hit by a damage over time skill (eg. Noxious Bolt from rogue, Frost Bolt from sorc) that sets off the stun immunity making any attempts at a stun to fail after the DoT is in effect. Which simply means, using Frost Bolt/Fireball repeatedly or a pet with some sort of DoT is actually a bad idea since it'll prevent your next charged fireball from stunning for the full duration of a stun.

[siddhant]

u say mages are meant for stuns rouges have razor tank have jugg useless most endgame rouges crit in every2 shots draining a lot of life if u dont have ur shield on u gg u say mages are designed for clashes but hte best team for clash according to many ppl opinion is 2tank2rouge1mage hmm and abt our heal dont get me started on that:)

[Nesria]

hmm
they should replace invulnerability with mana shield (which is that when attacked takes mana instead of health), also decrease shield time(time that shields active for) and shield CD {Like 3 or 5 sec shield duration and 15 or 20 sec CD}.

[Madnex]

u say mages are meant for stuns rouges have razor tank have jugg useless most endgame rouges crit in every2 shots draining a lot of life if u dont have ur shield on u gg u say mages are designed for clashes but hte best team for clash according to many ppl opinion is 2tank2rouge1mage hmm and abt our heal dont get me started on that:)
Razor only lasts for five seconds. And you get two of them unscathed from the shield invulnerability so how hard is it to survive three more seconds against a rogue with two damage skills? You can and should tank until the jugg wears off, if the warrior is using that. Just swap it with ice and keep a distance, not so hard.

[Rx8]

I think its only natural that rogues own 1 vs 1. Thats what they are built for. What many mages who complain about squishiness do not realize is that mages are NOT the squishiest class. It's rogues. Maxed out mages, as Madnex stated, have more HP that maxed out rogues. Also, in an evenly geared situation, mages shield allows them to tank 1-2 combos depending on the damage and crit rate of the rogue who is shooting. Rogues on the other hand, will die from a single combo and often from a single aimed shot.

I think the reason mages are complaining is that maxed out rogues can absolutely destroy mages are aren't evenly geared, sometimes even killing them in 1 combo through their shield. I agree with them when they say that this should not be happening, even comparing a ring rogue to a mythic mage, they should be able to survive long enough to do what they do best, stunlock.

It really doesnt matter with equal skills wether the mage has the best gears. The real point here is, the classes are designed with their own strengths and weaknesses. The will function accordingly. Not all classes will be and have to be same, which is the main point here, if u are a rogue, play as a rogue.This may be a post on a hint. Theres alot of gems, especially the variety. The warrior class can literally become a ROGUE with those eyes and paras. Mages can literally crit shot with 90dex (stat point build). Guess what? These gems can actually TRANSFORM your class. Use the right gems and pooooffff done.

The point about being a mage is what i loved, is that you can insta level and control everything in pve. I once accidently in wilds saw a couple of enigmatics or skme elite farming guild ppl. All were rogues and they finished off the zone in no time. All i did was heal to give them mana....i felt really sad that 3 rogues cleared it all off, all they wanted was a supply. It didnt bother much as i know to tank as a mage... (which i usually do) but it somewhat gave me the idea as how the elite crypts are leaded.

And pvp is something like a free time Game. Capture the flag - whats actually wrong here? Yes, ill give a hint. Focus on the word "Capture", one word will answer it. This game mostly to me, looks like an adult(ish) game in parts of CTF and a few more Things. Capture the flag, just team up, capture or sneak theough and kill the opponent flaggers and advance...its that easy. Yes it will take a long time to fix this as in pvp. To be honest i myself will have to slay my ego in the first place!. I would still maintain a friendly environment. To me this game is a chill out game....

[siddhant]

Razor only lasts for five seconds. And you get two of them unscathed from the shield invulnerability so how hard is it to survive three more seconds against a rogue with two damage skills? You can and should tank until the jugg wears off, if the warrior is using that. Just swap it with ice and keep a distance, not so hard.
U know it just takes one aimed shot to kill a mage right?

[Kriticality]

U know it just takes one aimed shot to kill a mage right?

It also takes one aimed shot to kill a lot of rogues.

[siddhant]

It also takes one aimed shot to kill a lot of rogues.
Well that gives both rouges a 50%chance at killing each other whereas a mage vs rouge vs with equal gear(excluding imbued sets)chances of winning
Rouge 70%
Mage 30%
Look the point i am making is not to buff mages just to make them good in 1vs1 but to buff them to make them good in 5vs5 where it is 2rouge 2tank 1mage(lays emphasis on 1)all i am saying is give us some skills like curse which is deadly to use and affects the whole 5players on other team or just allow mages to use 5skills that will atleast balance things up.

[Bellaelda]

I'm sick of the arguments. It's been acknowledged many times that mages are the weak link. You rogues just want to continue your world domination.

[Speetz13]

The issue is the game ha pseudo-roles instead of real ones, AKA tank - healer - DPS - support/buff/CC/nameless random allaroundfourthrole like many MMOs.

Plenty get by with no role system, a totally alternative or minimized one, etc, and still have balanced (or close to/somewhat balanced) PVP but AL tries to use a 2 role/3 class weird minimized system that doesn't have a healer role or any role-dependent systems or anything, yet still requires someone to have huge amounts of armor and someone to heal that person or a guns for their pots. This creates total imbalance.

So the Sorcerer may be the most nerfed out toon in PVP but in PVE it's a dual-pseudo-role class. I know none of this completely makes sense but it's the true issue of a 3 class, pseudo 2.5-role system.

[Remiem]

Really great discussion here, guys. I appreciate the continued feedback and commentary on class balance. As you all know, we are working on a big skill system that will address a lot of the things you mention here. Things like: making each class useful in their own way for pve and pvp, promoting classes working together, etc.

I'm going to close this up before it gets more dramatic. Keep an eye out for most news as we get further down the skill system road.