Mega Mage vs. Shadow - Worth It? Advice?

[noneo]

EDIT: Since I created this post, I have come much more aware of the MM set, and honestly, just more experience with an enchantress. I can assure you that MM is in fact better suited than the Shadow Set. Feel free to read through the posts as they are very informative though.

I am in a bit of a dilemma. I have a set of Shadow currently, and am going to buy the shadow glow stick to complete the set and get the set bonus. I am level 53 at the moment, and and am trying to plan out my gear for when I get to 55. I have spec'd out Mega Mage for a comparison (By looking at the specs, it seems Mega is the only realistic option for a pure Int Mage to upgrade to). And have a few concerns.

First, the price. I know right now I could get a set for 2 - 2.5 mil ish. I know this price will come down as more people get the set and want to sell. I am content with paying for this if it is worth it. Which brings me to my next concern.

Is it worth it?

Here are stats for my build (pure int) wearing a champions Fine Champion's Fine Crystal Ring. I have two options, shadow (using a glow stick of shadows) and Mega mage (using Mega Mage's Gemstone Wand), the following are the results.

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/3626/shadowvsmega.png

The differences:
Mega deals 39 MORE points of Damage (I used the max achievable damage from the weapon's range)
Mega offers 21% LESS Hit%
Mega offers 17 LESS crit
Mega offer 18 LESS H/s (which I am not totally concerned about)
Mega offers 18 MORE M/s (definite positive)
Mega offers 20 MORE Armor (definite positive)

When checking out Physiologic's advanced mechanics thread, he concluded that crit doubled damage approximately crit% of the time. So, when looking at the Shadow set with 17% more crit, I have a 17% better chance of hitting double damage.

Shadow Base Damage: 186
186*2 = 372 damage dealt 25% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-25=75 regular hits and 25 crits.
(75*186)+(25*372)= 23250 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Mega Mage Base Damage:225
225*2 = 450 damage dealt 8% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-8=92 regular hits and 8 crits.
(92*225)+(8*450)= 24300 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Now I will take into consideration my hit percentage.

With the Shadow Set and my attributes, I receive a 112% hit rate. This is 21% greater than that of the Mega Mage set.

For calculations sake, lets assume our opponent has 12% dodge. (this allows us to assume Shadow Set gives us 100% hit rate, and Mega gives 79%, and leaves out all of the messy calculations.)

I take the crit calculated damage of both sets, 23250 for shadow, and 24300 for Mega, and multiply by their hit%.

Shadow = 23250(100%) = 23250 landed damage points
Mega = 24300(79%) = 19197 landed damage points

We have just concluded that the full Shadow set actually does more damage per 100 hits than Mega Mage (the 2.5 million gold set) by a whopping 4053 damage points! (that is 17.4% less than a lvl 50 set)

So, damage is a definite negative about the set. lets look at the rest.

The Mega Mage gives you 20 more Armor (which is a very large amount). the base armor of the Shadow set is 109 (for my build), so these 20 points calculate to be an 18.35% increase in Armor. (When you think about the armor, for arguments sake, we will pretend you were just standing there getting damage dealt to you). You would last 18.35% longer by wearing the Mega Mage set as opposed to the Shadow. However, when you look back at the damage calculations, you will be in a fight for 17.4% longer (due to the fact that you deal less damage) with the Mega Mage set. which means you will only technically see a difference of 0.918% or about a 110 point (only 1 more than Shadow) armor rating. (I know damage and armor aren't directly correlated, especially when facing high level bosses, but when talking about minibosses or packs of mobs where one of their crits won't knock you out in one hit, this idea applies).

The next is M/s. I can't really argue any point about this one since it's pretty cut and dry. The more M/s you have, the faster your mana regenerates. However, at a certain point (unless you are spamming mana shield, which is a very valid point), you won't need it to respawn any faster. I am right on this boundary now. If I use my spells intelligently, I can easily go a whole run without using any mana pots (and I spam my spells for the most part). And if I host a run, I will farm pots while I am using them so it cancels out.

So to end this extremely drawn out post, I would like to hit on the main points.

Shadow Set deals 11.78% more damage
Mega Mage Set provides 0.918% (1 point) more armor
Mega Mage Set provides 18 more M/s (potentially not needed, i.e. mana pots)

What do you guys reccomend?
Spend 2.5 Million for a 1 points of armor, and 18 points of M/s?
Just stick with the Shadow and wait for some new gear?
Wait for improvements on the crafted Mega Mage?

Thanks for reading, look forward to reading your responses.

[Keohike]

hmm interesting, you might have just saved me a couple mil lol. But did u take bonus into considerations. Lvl 55 there are bonus.
Keohike

[noneo]

Yes, I did take into consideration the set bonus for both sets.

Without the bonus stats for Mega Mage, the stats would be:

225 Damage, 1 Speed, 48 Int, 3 Dodge, 91% Hit, 8% Crit, 2 H/s, 39 M/s, 127 Armor

Which would have made it even worse lol.

[WhoIsThis]

Here is a level 56 build with mega mage. I was planning on doing some similar calculations, but you beat me to the punch:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TXbKHODa1eI/AAAAAAAAAL8/AzZe_wnJb5I/Wand%20and%20Bracer%20Build%2056.png

Give me a day or so - I will see if I can get the shadow (wand) set pic for posting. I have both; I just lended shadow to a buddy.

Here it is with gem blast and gemstone staff:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TXbKQJRLheI/AAAAAAAAAME/aAzhLjuzBAg/Gem%20Blast%20Build%2056.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TXrXm4ugBxI/AAAAAAAAAOA/Wqh78_5beg4/Gemstone%20Build%2056.png

[noneo]

What does your vanity item add?

[WhoIsThis]

1 Armor for antlers.

I should mention that I am wearing a ring:

Fine Champion's Fine Crystal Ring Req: Lv 20, 67 Int; 2% Crit, 2 M/s, 4 Damage (from Physiologic's list)

Edit:

It if it helps, this is before patch 1.7 of me in shadow. Add 30 int, the new set bonus, and the ring and you have the answer.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TUSIfmvvrHI/AAAAAAAAAGA/Ozeojd_4sqQ/Pure%20Int.png

[Royce]

Whatever the numbers may say, there is no comparison in practice. MM outperforms shadow by a very large degree. The damage increase and skill damage increase is significant and the added armor is also very nice. I recommend even BS greens and oranges over shadow gear.

[noneo]

Whatever the numbers may say, there is no comparison in practice. MM outperforms shadow by a very large degree. The damage increase and skill damage increase is significant and the added armor is also very nice. I recommend even BS greens and oranges over shadow gear.

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

[Sky../]

You read about physiologics advanced mechanics thread, i assume you read about his other topic regarding hit% being capped at 85%? (or at least, from his tests, it seemed to be capped at 85%)

Also, the armor increase of 18.35% does not equate to lasting 18.35% longer.

[Physiologic]

I'm only good at archer stuff but here's some input:

Hit% MAY be negligible considering that this value is capped to some degree (I've only tested this in AO3: Close Encounters, so it MAY variable across campaigns as well), as having 100 hit% does not mean you'll hit 100% of the time - you will still MISS (DODGE is completely different, as this is dependent on enemy's DODGE value).

I've been looking at the mage stuff and it looks like its not as clear cut as Archer's lv 50 vs Balefort Sewers equips (in that certain BS gear totally outdoes lv 50 gear). Royce pointed out skill damage is important (something you forgot to mention) but crit IS valuable as well to skill damage (something Royce forgot to mention). 8% crit on MM vs 25% crit on Shadows, while 225 damage on MM and 186 damage on Shadows is quite a hard thing to weigh the pros and cons against. Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets.

Of course, this is all on paper as Royce said. When I tested out lv 50 archer sets, they differed in stats but all performed similarly on the field :p And I've played with too many mages that sucked with MM gear and mages that were awesome with Shadow gear, and vice versa. But for pure discussion's sake we'll just leave player skill out of it.

[Keohike]

So for every 100 hit you do more damage, but if you had more armor you would take less damage, and you can heal more with the added h/M. So im guessing even if you do more dmg per 100 hit you need to take into consideration of the dmg ur taking. So another words while you do more dmg per 100hits you will be dead before you can do 100 hits. I think that why ppl say mega mage is better.

Keohike

[Physiologic]

Regarding whether or not you need dodge/armor: that is completely up to you.

Do you generally have trouble surviving campaign to campaign? Then make dodge/armor values something of importance to you.

Are you awesome at healing and potting fast from campaign to campaign? Then forget dodge/armor, look at damage/crit values.

Don't judge 2 sets based off of their "overall" scores, judge them by looking at values that you feel are relevant to your playing style :p

[WhoIsThis]

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

Mega mage adds more skill damage of course - so the base skill damage is higher. When MM crits, it hits even harder than full shadow critical hits, although shadow will crit more often.

Edit: The truth is for mage - skill damage matters more than DPS. For bird, that's different. If such a Mega Mage set existed, I'd willingly trade zero DPS for very high skill damage. Why? Because most damage from int mages comes from your spells. High DPS is more useful against bosses than anything else. I'd probably switch weapons right before a boss fight to maybe staff in most instances (except trash heap where the extra armor is useful).

Another thing - if you can't get mega mage, consider using lowmans or mixing and matching the level 55 sets. Each has it's strengths and weaknesses. For full sets, lowmans is the best of them - even better than the purples.

[noneo]

Also, the armor increase of 18.35% does not equate to lasting 18.35% longer.

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.


I'm only good at archer stuff but here's some input:

Hit% MAY be negligible considering that this value is capped to some degree (I've only tested this in AO3: Close Encounters, so it MAY variable across campaigns as well), as having 100 hit% does not mean you'll hit 100% of the time - you will still MISS (DODGE is completely different, as this is dependent on enemy's DODGE value).

I've been looking at the mage stuff and it looks like its not as clear cut as Archer's lv 50 vs Balefort Sewers equips (in that certain BS gear totally outdoes lv 50 gear). Royce pointed out skill damage is important (something you forgot to mention) but crit IS valuable as well to skill damage (something Royce forgot to mention). 8% crit on MM vs 25% crit on Shadows, while 225 damage on MM and 186 damage on Shadows is quite a hard thing to weigh the pros and cons against. Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets.

Of course, this is all on paper as Royce said. When I tested out lv 50 archer sets, they differed in stats but all performed similarly on the field :p And I've played with too many mages that sucked with MM gear and mages that were awesome with Shadow gear, and vice versa. But for pure discussion's sake we'll just leave player skill out of it.

When you talk about DODGE and MISS, DODGE varies on the enemies dodge %, but MISS depends on your hit rate? if so, this does change my calculations quite a bit.

Next, what do you mean by this? "Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets."

Also, leaving player skill out (I know that is the main factor of better playing) was exactly my point. I just wanted to see which set (on paper) would perform better, and I just can't conceptualize (unless my calculations are incorrect) how the MM would be much better besides for better armor, and M/s.

Unless the devs are lying to us, and labeling the gear with false stats!

And I am not trying to prove Royce or anyone wrong, I am simply seeking information on a large purchase, and want to know the mechanics behind said purchase.

[WhoIsThis]

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.

In practice, having that extra armor leads to significantly more survivability than you may think. First, you will take 20 damage less per hit. That is big news for int mages that don't have a lot of hp. Considering how hard enemies hit, that scales dramatically. Furthermore, as mega mage has a higher base spell damage, your heal is stronger when you are hit - good for not just you, but the entire team.

I don't expect you to trust me entirely, but let me say this. I own both sets. I worked long and hard to get my build to 56, then to get full mega mage. I bought every piece except the helm (lucky drop). I use mega mage as my main and for good reason over shadow.

[noneo]

Mega mage adds more skill damage of course - so the base skill damage is higher. When MM crits, it hits even harder than full shadow critical hits, although shadow will crit more often.

Edit: The truth is for mage - skill damage matters more than DPS. For bird, that's different. If such a Mega Mage set existed, I'd willingly trade zero DPS for very high skill damage. Why? Because most damage from int mages comes from your spells.

This actually makes a lot of sense (I think it is what Royce was trying to say as well). I understand that the higher base damage is an integral part of hitting higher with skills.

Can anyone explain to me the exact correlation between base damage and skill damage? That would be greatly appreciated.

[Physiologic]

I understand it may not a direct correlation, but having better armor does increase your survival duration. If you have 18.35% better armor, then you can withstand 18.35% more damage points. if the dps of the mobs remain the same this does lead to a correlated survival rate, and in my opinion (which could very easily be wrong) this leads to a 18.35% longer survival time. I'm not sure if this is a 1:1 ratio, but would be intrigued to find out more.



When you talk about DODGE and MISS, DODGE varies on the enemies dodge %, but MISS depends on your hit rate? if so, this does change my calculations quite a bit.

Next, what do you mean by this? "Maybe you can calculate skill damage accumulation WITH crit for both sets."

Also, leaving player skill out (I know that is the main factor of better playing) was exactly my point. I just wanted to see which set (on paper) would perform better, and I just can't conceptualize (unless my calculations are incorrect) how the MM would be much better besides for better armor, and M/s.

Unless the devs are lying to us, and labeling the gear with false stats!

And I am not trying to prove Royce or anyone wrong, I am simply seeking information on a large purchase, and want to know the mechanics behind said purchase.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

MISS and DODGE work on 2 separate rolls. When you MISS an enemy, that's because your hit% fails (MISS appears on top of your head). If you succeed, then enemy's DODGE roll comes into play. If enemy dodges, the DODGE appears on top of the enemy's head.

And I meant you can calculate skill damage with crit (you've done calculations using normal damage and crit) between sets.


This actually makes a lot of sense (I think it is what Royce was trying to say as well). I understand that the higher base damage is an integral part of hitting higher with skills.

Can anyone explain to me the exact correlation between base damage and skill damage? That would be greatly appreciated.

This varies depending on weapon types and probably weapon speed as well. I have one correlation table for archers only. I believe Royce is doing one for mages.

[noneo]

Furthermore, as mega mage has a higher base spell damage..."

How can I find out what this "base spell damage" is? It seems to be the key to unlocking the hidden aspects of the MM set..


I don't expect you to trust me entirely, but let me say this. I own both sets. I worked long and hard to get my build to 56, then to get full mega mage. I bought every piece except the helm (lucky drop). I use mega mage as my main and for good reason over shadow.

I do trust you all, as most of you have probably been playing longer than I. It seems to be the general view that MM is far superior to Shadow (which is what I had expected prior to performing the calculations). I just wanted to mathematically come to a sound conclusion that agrees with how it performs on the field. But, that task may be more difficult than expected.

[WhoIsThis]

Skill damage is affected by:

1. The rank of your skills (a 6 will do a lot more than 1 and may have secondary effects, such as a bear's beckon - 6 is very nice)
2. Your int score (dex for birds and str for bears)
3. Your equipment (different equipment will add different amounts to your skill damage)

The truth is, you need to test on the field before making a final decision. "Paper" builds often look good and on the field, you discover things (variables if you will) that did not enter into your calculations.

[noneo]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

I have one correlation table for archers only. I believe Royce is doing one for mages.

Shoot. I remember looking at this table a week or two ago. I can't believe I forgot about this. I'll recalculate to match this table. Thanks!


And I meant you can calculate skill damage with crit (you've done calculations using normal damage and crit) between sets.

How can I go about doing this? I don't know how to determine the value for skill damage.

EDIT: Are you just talking about the damage that your skill says when you highlight over it? i.e. Level 5 Firestorm gives you 67-117 base points of damage?

If so, wouldn't that further prove that the shadow set, with higher crit, would deal more damage?

[Physiologic]

Shoot. I remember looking at this table a week or two ago. I can't believe I forgot about this. I'll recalculate to match this table. Thanks!



How can I go about doing this? I don't know how to determine the value for skill damage.

This is the work you've done:

When checking out Physiologic's advanced mechanics thread, he concluded that crit doubled damage approximately crit% of the time. So, when looking at the Shadow set with 17% more crit, I have a 17% better chance of hitting double damage.

Shadow Base Damage: 186
186*2 = 372 damage dealt 25% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-25=75 regular hits and 25 crits.
(75*186)+(25*372)= 23250 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Mega Mage Base Damage:225
225*2 = 450 damage dealt 8% of the time
So, for 100 hits I will hit 100-8=92 regular hits and 8 crits.
(92*225)+(8*450)= 24300 damage dealt (per 100 hits).

Instead of looking at base damage, go to your skills menu and look at each individual skill and see how much damage they do. Then do the same exact calculations :p

[WhoIsThis]

Instead of looking at base damage, go to your skills menu and look at each individual skill and see how much damage they do. Then do the same exact calculations :p

The OP does not have full mega mage around to do a comparison. In any event, I will be writing a guide on the matter like the one that Mooger, yourself, and Parth have done for birds at some point.

[noneo]

That's a lot of number crunching :p I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: is anyone a pure int lvl 55 with both a MM set and Shadow set? I would like to see the comparisons to make sure my values are right.

[Physiologic]

The OP does not have full mega mage around to do a comparison. In any event, I will be writing a guide on the matter like the one that Mooger, yourself, and Parth have done for birds at some point.

Oh that's right :p

I suppose noneo, you can borrow a friend's MM outfit or get this data from anyone else.

[noneo]

If only I had friends that had full MM lol

[WhoIsThis]

One more thing that the OP needs to consider: Procs.

The shadow glow stick doesn't have one. The gemstone wand does. So does the gem blast staff. It shouldn't be a deciding factor, but it should weigh into any decision about effective damage. I'll leave the OP to do their research on what procs the different weapons have.

[noneo]

One more thing that the OP needs to consider: Procs.

The shadow glow stick doesn't have one. The gemstone wand does. So does the gem blast staff.

Thanks, I was looking for proc info and couldn't find any. I'll check Mystic's thread real quick and see if it's there.

[Pharcyde]

Like always, Royce hit it point on.

Higher skill damage
Splash damage from the MM staff
Higher armor

I forgot to look at hit percent and crit though. Only factors that will effect which set to choose before all the listed things above.

After tons of testing, theoretically, mega mage is better then the Keeper set. But my tests show that the keeper set out preforms the mega mage set when it comes into damage. REMEMBER!! I am not saying that Keeper is better, I only took performance in mob clearing into account. Mega still has keeper on its insane armor and higher regeneration. There also seems to be a hidden factor for Keeper. I have no real way to test this, but the keeper set definitely feels like it has a higher range and splash damage effect then the mega mage set.

So I would choose MM, UNLESS Shadow set has a drastically higher hit percent and critical.

[Royce]

Skill damage is affected by:

1. The rank of your skills (a 6 will do a lot more than 1 and may have secondary effects, such as a bear's beckon - 6 is very nice)
2. Your int score (dex for birds and str for bears)
3. Your equipment (different equipment will add different amounts to your skill damage)

The truth is, you need to test on the field before making a final decision. "Paper" builds often look good and on the field, you discover things (variables if you will) that did not enter into your calculations.

Don't forget base damage ;) Here's a post from Abother thread where I explained all the factors that are involved in skill damage.

No, basically here's where skill damage comes from, four factors:

1. Skill rank (1-6)

2. Stat driven skills (Int raises skill damage directly for elves, Str for bears, Dex for birds)

3. Base damage - this is the damage that does not include weapon damage. It comes from attributes, and from gear bonuses other than weapon damage (items like armor or helms that boost damage, set bonus damage increases, etc). 100% if base damage is added to skill damage.

4. Weapon damage - this is the confusing one. A portion of your weapon damage us added to skill damage. Exactly how large that portion is seems to depend on many factors that would seem to include, but not be limited to: Type of weapon (axe, wand, sword, bow, staff, dagger etc.), campaign if origin for the weapon and/or level, 1 vs 2-handedness of the weapon, the weapon's damage itself, and perhaps something random ;)

Edit: and I should note, you can't always tell simple weapon damage from looking at weapon stats. Some weapons seem to provide both a base damage increase and weapon damage and both are just combined in the weapon's stats. All mega Mage items, for instance provide 10 base damage, including weapons, so when you look at the stats of a MM weapon the damage shown is the weapon damage plus 10 base damage .

As for damage and Crit, I believe your original calculations were flawed in a couple of ways. You use max damage instead of average damage, and didn't take armor into account. If you do that, the DPS of the higher damage weapon will fare much better. Also while Crit is nice and adds up to more damage over time just like added base damage does, it isn't always a clear cut choice over damage. For clearing maps for instance, with lower damage but high Crit, you will tend to overkill a fraction of the time, doing more damage than necessary, and then have weaker attacks and skills the majority of the time, reducing your overall efficiency and effectiveness. The skill damage difference between MM and shadows is pretty huge since the MM wand set includes 46 points of base damage which is added directly to your skill damage. I can get some exact figures when I log on shortly if you want.

[Physiologic]

EDIT: Are you just talking about the damage that your skill says when you highlight over it? i.e. Level 5 Firestorm gives you 67-117 base points of damage?

If so, wouldn't that further prove that the shadow set, with higher crit, would deal more damage?

Yes, and when you equip gear those skill damages increase accordingly.

And that's up to you to prove :p

[Moogerfooger]

What does it add to skill damage?

I agree that the added Armor is a plus, however I don't see how the MM could deal more damage. I know the theoretical world does not act exactly as the real world, but with such a drastic reduction in damage compared to the Shadow (when taking into consideration Crit and hit%), I don't see how it could be better to any degree of damage.

Sorry to jump in sorta here, and this may have been mentioned already but I don't see it in a quick scan...but if I recall MM has a far higher base damage by about 40ish over Shadow, which will mean it does as much effective damage, and probably more in the long run, than Shadow....when you take enemy armor into account. Can't just multiply hit%*time*base damage and say "Shadow does way more damage than MM". I tried once on an Archer comparison, and was smacked with the Holy Mackerel of Knowledge because it doesn't take enemy armor values into effect.


I am making up an example (and very simplified not taking crit at all into consideration)

100 hits, MM 79% hit, Shadow 100% (again, making up)

Enemy armor = 50.

MM base damage 220 = (79 successful hits)*(220-50) = 13,430 effective damage.
Shadow base damage 180 = (100 successful hits)*(180-50) = 13,000 effective damage.

Tie, in my over-simplified, no buff/debuff/crit example. Adding Crit in would certainly be a factor in Shadow's favor, but I woul dbet that if one sat down with the numbers, simplified weapon damage numbers would be closer than intially posted. The weapon speeds also play a role to some extent in figuring true damage from weapons, I think Royce or Phys has the real equation for it.

Again, my apologies of this has already been accounted for, just hadn't seen this addressed in the thread yet, and I will take a solid lashing with a wet spaghetti noodle if it has been discussed :p just something to maybe consider in your considerations on which gear you end up with.

[noneo]

Like always, Royce hit it point on.

Higher skill damage
Splash damage from the MM staff
Higher armor

I forgot to look at hit percent and crit though. Only factors that will effect which set to choose before all the listed things above.

After tons of testing, theoretically, mega mage is better then the Keeper set. But my tests show that the keeper set out preforms the mega mage set when it comes into damage. REMEMBER!! I am not saying that Keeper is better, I only took performance in mob clearing into account. Mega still has keeper on its insane armor and higher regeneration. There also seems to be a hidden factor for Keeper. I have no real way to test this, but the keeper set definitely feels like it has a higher range and splash damage effect then the mega mage set.

So I would choose MM, UNLESS Shadow set has a drastically higher hit percent and critical.

Isn't 21% less hit%, and 17 less crit a drastic amount? (this is how much less the MM has than Shadow)

[Moogerfooger]

Isn't 21% less hit%, and 17 less crit a drastic amount? (this is how much less the MM has than Shadow)

MM = much higher base damage, which would offset those lesser numbers to some degree ^^

[Royce]

Also note that a pure Int Mage with the MM set will have over 90% Hit which is effectively identical to the higher Hit of shadow gear in PvE (you miss with similar frequency in either set).

[Pharcyde]

Isn't 21% less hit%, and 17 less crit a drastic amount? (this is how much less the MM has than Shadow)

I still haven't seen the crit and hit percent on shadow compared to mega, that is why I am asking. Yeah that is a pretty big difference. So there are so many factors playing into this, that you should decide on these two things.

1.) Survivability - MM is way better for surviving. Its really high skill damage, but at the expense of crit and hit, which lower its mob clearing abilities so much, that keeper outperforms it still.
2.) Overall damage and mob clearing - Shadow will be way better at mob clearing, considering how high the crit and hit is compared to MM. My keeper and MM tests on ability to clear mobs prove that a much higher crit and hit will outperform a higher skill and base damage.


Also note that a pure Int Mage with the MM set will have over 90% Hit which is effectively identical to the higher Hit of shadow gear in PvE (you miss with similar frequency in either set).

Wait, so the hit percents are the same on the two?

[Adapts]

While crit is nice, its icing for mages, we are not birds. Mages don't attack as fast as birds to make most use of crit, and have other responsiblities to the party than full out dmg. At least, only the pro mages realize that. MM is ultimate mage gear right now, the trade off of 17 crit vs. the extra skill dmg and armor is in PVE sewers anway. Prob not worth 2 mil though lol, can get by with greens

[Royce]

I still haven't seen the crit and hit percent on shadow compared to mega, that is why I am asking. Yeah that is a pretty big difference. So there are so many factors playing into this, that you should decide on these two things.

1.) Survivability - MM is way better for surviving. Its really high skill damage, but at the expense of crit and hit, which lower its mob clearing abilities so much, that keeper outperforms it still.
2.) Overall damage and mob clearing - Shadow will be way better at mob clearing, considering how high the crit and hit is compared to MM. My keeper and MM tests on ability to clear mobs prove that a much higher crit and hit will outperform a higher skill and base damage.

Not at all. MM ends up being way better for clearing. As I explained above, clearing is about high sustained damage output over time, so damage not Crit, and the Hit% difference can essentially be ignored for PvE, since without being debuffed, the 90-some percent Hit of MM hits just as often as the shadow set.

[Pharcyde]

While crit is nice, its icing for mages, we are not birds. Mages don't attack as fast as birds to make most use of crit, and have other responsiblities to the party than full out dmg. At least, only the pro mages realize that. MM is ultimate mage gear right now, the trade off of 17 crit vs. the extra skill dmg and armor is in PVE sewers anway. Prob not worth 2 mil though lol, can get by with greens

Crit is actually really important. that 17 difference is a lot of extra damage that will be gone.

[Physiologic]

"Getting by with greens" is an understatement! - non-pinks work just as well as pinks. Hell, I remember a Hideout run in which Moogerfooger and I used FULL CYBER EQUIPS and we STILL finished Hideout in less than 4 minutes. I used to believe in "ultimate equips"...now I only believe in "ultimate skill" and "ultimate party." :)

[noneo]

Don't forget base damage ;) Here's a post from Abother thread where I explained all the factors that are involved in skill damage.


As for damage and Crit, I believe your original calculations were flawed in a couple of ways. You use max damage instead of average damage, and didn't take armor into account. If you do that, the DPS of the higher damage weapon will fare much better. Also while Crit is nice and adds up to more damage over time just like added base damage does, it isn't always a clear cut choice over damage. For clearing maps for instance, with lower damage but high Crit, you will tend to overkill a fraction of the time, doing more damage than necessary, and then have weaker attacks and skills the majority of the time, reducing your overall efficiency and effectiveness. The skill damage difference between MM and shadows is pretty huge since the MM wand set includes 46 points of base damage which is added directly to your skill damage. I can get some exact figures when I log on shortly if you want.

Wish I had that post to reference before I made my thread :p

Also, with my calculations, I did take into consideration the added damage from armor. I incorporated that into my final numbers. Also, like i said earlier, I know my calculations can not be entirely used in the real world. There will be no instance that you will be constantly hit for an infinite amount of time and not die (unless you are in FH with a zombie or something). And I know that what dungeon you are in, the types of mobs, and which boss all have a integral role in determining the type of gear to use (the same variables go into choosing a wand over a staff or vise versa). I was just trying to get a grasp on something that didn't make sense.


Yes, and when you equip gear those skill damages increase accordingly.

And that's up to you to prove :p

Oh gee, thanks :p


Sorry to jump in sorta here, and this may have been mentioned already but I don't see it in a quick scan...but if I recall MM has a far higher base damage by about 40ish over Shadow, which will mean it does as much effective damage, and probably more in the long run, than Shadow....when you take enemy armor into account. Can't just multiply hit%*time*base damage and say "Shadow does way more damage than MM". I tried once on an Archer comparison, and was smacked with the Holy Mackerel of Knowledge because it doesn't take enemy armor values into effect.


I am making up an example (and very simplified not taking crit at all into consideration)

100 hits, MM 79% hit, Shadow 100% (again, making up)

Enemy armor = 50.

MM base damage 220 = (79 successful hits)*(220-50) = 13,430 effective damage.
Shadow base damage 180 = (100 successful hits)*(180-50) = 13,000 effective damage.

Tie, in my over-simplified, no buff/debuff/crit example. Adding Crit in would certainly be a factor in Shadow's favor, but I woul dbet that if one sat down with the numbers, simplified weapon damage numbers would be closer than intially posted. The weapon speeds also play a role to some extent in figuring true damage from weapons, I think Royce or Phys has the real equation for it.

Again, my apologies of this has already been accounted for, just hadn't seen this addressed in the thread yet, and I will take a solid lashing with a wet spaghetti noodle if it has been discussed :p just something to maybe consider in your considerations on which gear you end up with.

I see what you are saying about the armor of mobs, but even when you take that into consideration (forgetting about skill damage) the added crit from Shadow would outperform the MM's crit (if the numbers/odds were 100% accurate).

Also, the speed of both weapons is 1, so that made it a lot easier to calculate.

I love the discussion from everyone! I'm learning a ton, keep it up :)

[Pharcyde]

Not at all. MM ends up being way better for clearing. As I explained above, clearing is about high sustained damage output over time, so damage not Crit, and the Hit% difference can essentially be ignored for PvE, since without being debuffed, the 90-some percent Hit of MM hits just as often as the shadow set.

Have you ran any tests? Like I said, theoretically, MM is way better. But somehow lvl 50 sets are still outpreforming it in time taken to clear a map solo with several constants in place to ensure validity. The only thing I can come to on why it is being outperformed is how much of a gap there is in hit and crit.

But again, like I said, I am testing only one component of MM, its ability to clear maps. I would still use MM over shadow and the keeper set any day for its other attributes.

[noneo]

Also note that a pure Int Mage with the MM set will have over 90% Hit which is effectively identical to the higher Hit of shadow gear in PvE (you miss with similar frequency in either set).

Good point, I would love to have the exact numbers if you can get them.

[Royce]

I think somehow you're overvaluing Crit. If damage you do (damage - target armor is 100, then 1 damage is the same as 1% Crit for long term damage output, if it equals 200, then 1% Crit is twice as good, etc.). MM loses some Crit, but the damage increase more than makes up or it, and for clearing maps, as I said above, damage winds up being more efficient anyway since less of your output is wasted in overkill.

[WhoIsThis]

Crit is actually really important. that 17 difference is a lot of extra damage that will be gone.

It's an effective 17% loss in damage.

Example: I do 100 damage each hit, after armor is considered on an enemy. (Let's keep the numbers simple here.) I have a 10% crit. If I have 100 hits, I will do 11,000 damage.

90 shots x 100 damage = 9000.
10 shots x 200 damage = 1000.

Total - 11,000.

Versus zero crit, where I would do 10,000 (100 hits x 100 damage).

[noneo]

While crit is nice, its icing for mages, we are not birds. Mages don't attack as fast as birds to make most use of crit, and have other responsiblities to the party than full out dmg. At least, only the pro mages realize that. MM is ultimate mage gear right now, the trade off of 17 crit vs. the extra skill dmg and armor is in PVE sewers anway. Prob not worth 2 mil though lol, can get by with greens

I agree and disagree. I am not a typical int mage. I generally lead the pack and deal large amounts of damage to mobs, while people behind me clean up the scraps :p I still res and give health to everyone, but I also deal copious amounts of damage :) So, hit% and crit are pretty important to me (this may be why I am having such a hard time deciding between the two).

[Royce]

Have you ran any tests? Like I said, theoretically, MM is way better. But somehow lvl 50 sets are still outpreforming it in time taken to clear a map solo with several constants in place to ensure validity. The only thing I can come to on why it is being outperformed is how much of a gap there is in hit and crit.

But again, like I said, I am testing only one component of MM, its ability to clear maps. I would still use MM over shadow and the keeper set any day for its other attributes.

I played around for a while with my Shadow set even after I got MM, but what I found was that it was dramatically underpowered even compared to a Lowman's green set. I killed much much faster with any BS set I tried than with the Shadow set. So even though it's still wicked cool looking, I quickly eliminated the shadow set from my loadouts.

[Pharcyde]

I think somehow you're overvaluing Crit. If damage you do (damage - target armor is 100, then 1 damage is the same as 1% Crit for long term damage output, if it equals 200, then 1% Crit is twice as good, etc.). MM loses some Crit, but the damage increase more than makes up or it, and for clearing maps, as I said above, damage winds up being more efficient anyway since less of your output is wasted in overkill.

I wouldn't exactly say I am overvalueing crit. My test was 15 runs in plasma pyramid with each set. Cyber, shadow, mystery, mystery with keeper staff, keeper set and then Mega Mage set. I used staffs for all of these, since I don't care for wands and bracers all that much and never use them. I then took the average time for all 15 runs with each gear and ranked them.

1.) Keeper set
2.) MM
3.) Shadow
4.) Mystery with keeper
5.) Cyber
6.) Mystery

Shadow was 1 second over Mega, and keeper was 9 seconds under mega.

[Royce]

I wouldn't exactly say I am overvalueing crit. My test was 15 runs in plasma pyramid with each set. Cyber, shadow, mystery, mystery with keeper staff, keeper set and then Mega Mage set. I used staffs for all of these, since I don't care for wands and bracers all that much and never use them. I then took the average time for all 15 runs with each gear and ranked them.

1.) Keeper set
2.) MM
3.) Shadow
4.) Mystery with keeper
5.) Cyber
6.) Mystery

Shadow was 1 second over Mega, and keeper was 9 seconds over mega.

Ah but the Plasma mobs have much lower armor than BS mobs. I honestly haven't tried comparing the Keeper safe set to the MM staff set because the MM staff set is just dramatically better in paper. I'll check it out though and see what I come up with.

[Adapts]

Crit is actually really important. that 17 difference is a lot of extra damage that will be gone.
Yea i meant crit is nice to have, but for the trade-off of +all the time damage and armor? Me personally would go the latter for sewers.

[noneo]

I think somehow you're overvaluing Crit. If damage you do (damage - target armor is 100, then 1 damage is the same as 1% Crit for long term damage output, if it equals 200, then 1% Crit is twice as good, etc.). MM loses some Crit, but the damage increase more than makes up or it, and for clearing maps, as I said above, damage winds up being more efficient anyway since less of your output is wasted in overkill.

Crit doubles your damage (based off of Physiologic's thread), so if you hit 100 damage every time, a crit would lead 200 damage.

I could definitely see MM being better for group since it consistently hits higher amounts of damage (even without taking into consideration skill damage). But for solo, with mobs that have larger amounts of health, a 17% greater chance of hitting double damage would be a great attribute to have.

[Adapts]

I agree and disagree. I am not a typical int mage. I generally lead the pack and deal large amounts of damage to mobs, while people behind me clean up the scraps :p I still res and give health to everyone, but I also deal copious amounts of damage :) So, hit% and crit are pretty important to me (this may be why I am having such a hard time deciding between the two).

ahh nice, well if its working for you right now, in regards to your original post MM is overpriced right now and if shadow is working out, i would wait lol

[WhoIsThis]

Ah but the Plasma mobs have much lower armor than BS mobs. I honestly haven't tried comparing the Keeper safe set to the MM staff set because the MM staff set is just dramatically better in paper. I'll check it out though and see what I come up with.

If you do, sorry to interrupt, but you will find that the gem blast staff outperforms the keeper's staff. I lended my gem blast to a random that I had some trust in. They said that the gem blast was noticeably better than the keeper's staff. They were wearing an overlord cosmos helmet and the mirage robe. That player immediately decided to try lowmans and promptly bought themselves a gem blast staff.

Pharcyde - I recommend that you do the same. Level 55 gem blast staffs can be had now for as little as 50k. In the end that it doesn't prove that great, you can always sell it and you've haven't spent much money.

[Adapts]

"Getting by with greens" is an understatement! - non-pinks work just as well as pinks. Hell, I remember a Hideout run in which Moogerfooger and I used FULL CYBER EQUIPS and we STILL finished Hideout in less than 4 minutes. I used to believe in "ultimate equips"...now I only believe in "ultimate skill" and "ultimate party." :)

Ya i remember that too, i was in it :P

[noneo]

Ah but the Plasma mobs have much lower armor than BS mobs. I honestly haven't tried comparing the Keeper safe set to the MM staff set because the MM staff set is just dramatically better in paper. I'll check it out though and see what I come up with.

True, by having lower armor, you can blow through most of the mobs in 1 hit. Whereas in BS you would have to multi-hit some/most of them, and if your luck is bad that night and you aren't landing your supposed crit% it would def be better to have higher base damage.

[Pharcyde]

Crit doubles your damage (based off of Physiologic's thread), so if you hit 100 damage every time, a crit would lead 200 damage.

I could definitely see MM being better for group since it consistently hits higher amounts of damage (even without taking into consideration skill damage). But for solo, with mobs that have larger amounts of health, a 17% greater chance of hitting double damage would be a great attribute to have.

Not only does it double, it also has a chance to go higher then double damage at times.

[Pharcyde]

Ah but the Plasma mobs have much lower armor than BS mobs. I honestly haven't tried comparing the Keeper safe set to the MM staff set because the MM staff set is just dramatically better in paper. I'll check it out though and see what I come up with.

Yeah I noticed that too, but when it comes to gold farming in plasma or any sort of farming at low dungeons, keeper is more effective.

I will do the same test in alien oasis (BS is too hard to solo and get valid results) with all sets and tell you what I come up with.

I don't think the results will be much different, that critical hit is a chance of a higher hit happening. Do you or Phy know if crit is directly effected by armor? Considering it is just a % chance of hitting high.

Then last thing, since MM has higher base and skill damage then keeper, doesn't that mean MM would preform better in plasma? Seeing as armor is much lower on mobs? Thats why I think crit and hit are undervalued by mages.

[Physiologic]

Yes, crit is dependent on enemy armor as well.

Values from my data:

Non-criticals landed: 70 (83.33%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 9009
Average non-critical damage: 128.7

Criticals landed: 14 (16.67%)
Critical damage range: 198-300
Total critical damage: 3581
Average critical damage: 255.8
-----------------------------------------
Non-criticals landed: 47 (55.29%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-153
Total non-critical damage: 6205
Average non-critical damage: 132.0

Criticals landed: 38 (44.7%)
Critical damage range: 201-310
Total critical damage: 9963
Average critical damage: 262.2

The damage quoted is all effective damage and effective damage correlates with critical damage. So it's simply crit = 2 x (damage - enemy armor) and NOT crit = (2 x damage ) - enemy armor.

[Moogerfooger]

Ya i remember that too, i was in it :P

+1.

In the end, after several experienced archers ran around countless hours with countless different loadouts that differed wildly on paper and pored over a LOT of numbers and made judgements on what should happen...while field-testing it ultimately came down to probably 80% of it - or more - being individual user skill and party skill as a whole, if with a party. Only drastic differences on paper, such as 43 crit vs 12 crit (which is HUGE in the archer world) are really noticeable. A certain very experienced archer in this thread dares to run around with green Bagman's gear (the horror!) and is one of the best archers in the game and runs rings around almost any other archer (at least in PvE :p)

As someone mentioned earlier, there are MM mages out there with no real clue, and mages with far 'inferior' equips that outperform 90% of said MM mages due to user skill. It all comes down to personal preference for your personal style of play mostly. I have Cyber Rift on my 54 bear, and while in a party with a 55 bear with full Fury he scoffed at me for my Cyber...and I promptly outperformed Furybear in every way bear-possible, noticed and commented on by the others in the party, and he died repeatedly despite me leading the way with my 'inferior' gear.

You can analyze numbers all day long with diminishing returns at some point, but the trick is finding what works best for your style, your skill level, and potentially the people you run in parties with :D

[Shouja]

I thought I'd chime in with some skill damage numbers since I have all the sets discussed on my mage.

This is based on a Level 55 pure int mage with level 6 in lightning and firestorm:

Mega Mage w/ Gemstone Wand and Bracer
Lightning: 257-388
Firestorm: 270-383

Shadow Set
Lightning: 218-349
Firestorm: 231-344

Keeper Set w/ Staff
Lightning: 262-390
Firestorm: 274-385

Mega Mage w/ Gemstone Staff
Lightning: 306-434
Firestorm: 318-429

Mega Mage w/ Gem Blast Staff
Lightning: 306-434
Firestorm: 318-429

[Physiologic]

Shadow Set
Lightning: 218-349
Firestorm: 231-344

Mega Mage w/ Gemstone Staff
Lightning: 306-434
Firestorm: 318-429

Dear good god in heaven, lol. If the skill damage differs between Shadows and Mega Mage by THAT MUCH, then Mega Mage wins, despite its crit value. If the skill damages were closer together, then crit would play a much bigger role - but the differences in skill damage is just enormous.

In 100 hits of Firestorm (Shadows 25% crit, MM 8% crit):
Shadows 75x283 + 25x566 = 35,375
MM 92x370 + 8x740= 39,960

Mega Mage delivers nearly 5,000 more damage for this skill in 100 hits.

[noneo]

I thought I'd chime in with some skill damage numbers since I have all the sets discussed on my mage.

This is based on a Level 55 pure int mage with level 6 in lightning and firestorm:

Mega Mage w/ Gemstone Wand and Bracer
Lightning: 257-388
Firestorm: 270-383

Shadow Set
Lightning: 218-349
Firestorm: 231-344

Keeper Set w/ Staff
Lightning: 262-390
Firestorm: 274-385

Mega Mage w/ Gemstone Staff
Lightning: 306-434
Firestorm: 318-429

Mega Mage w/ Gem Blast Staff
Lightning: 306-434
Firestorm: 318-429

This is great to have. I'm going to run my numbers again with all the information gathered in this thread and post the results.

EDIT: For the shadow set, did you use staff or wand?

Royce, after looking at this. Have you been using a staff or a wand? Because that would change everything. I based all of my calculations and assumptions off of a gemstone wand with bracer

[Shouja]

Well I should point out that the Shadow Set was with the Glow Stick and the Doll.

The values with the Crystal Staff of Shadows:
Lightning: 233-362
Firestorm: 246-357

[Royce]

I was considering the wand set (which I believe is what is shown above. The MM wand set is way better than the shadow wand set), the shadow staff set is not even worth discussing since it's worse than the keeper staff set ;)
As for the skill damage, note that even a Lowman's set is only 6 points less per skill than MM, and most other BS sets are comperable, which is one reason the Shadow stuff can't stack up to BS gear.

Edit: And if you are going to run another calculation, don't forget the gemstone wand's drain proc that does additional damage agains mobs debuffed by weakness.

[noneo]

Dear good god in heaven, lol. If the skill damage differs between Shadows and Mega Mage by THAT MUCH, then Mega Mage wins, despite its crit value. If the skill damages were closer together, then crit would play a much bigger role - but the differences in skill damage is just enormous.

Mega Mage delivers nearly 5,000 more damage for this skill in 100 hits.

He did do numbers using a wand and doll, when comparing wands, stats are as follows:

Mega Mage w/ Gemstone Wand and Bracer
Lightning: 257-388
Firestorm: 270-383

Shadow Set
Lightning: 218-349
Firestorm: 231-344

In 100 hits (Shadows 25% crit, MM 8% crit):
Shadow = 35375 = 75*283+25*566
MM = 34784 = 92*322+8*645


Shadow still wins..

EDIT: just to clear things up, I have ONLY been discussing the use of a wand with both sets. I know the MM Staff is incredi-awesome in damage.

[noneo]

Edit: And if you are going to run another calculation, don't forget the gemstone wand's drain proc that does additional damage agains mobs debuffed by weakness.

it's on my list of "to do" calculations :p

[Royce]

Again you have not figured in armor. You need to subtract armor from damage and 2 X armor from Crit damage. Despite all of this, I would still say sustained hits of 40 more damage, multiplied by the many targets the skill hits, would serve you far better than the occasional blast that overkills and wastes it's own damage accompanied by a majority of much weaker hits. PvP the Crit is more important, but for PvE big sustained damage gets the job done faster.

Edit: Just looking at your numbers, I think any reasonable armor value, even as low as 50, would swing things in favor of MM.

Edit 2: In fact the Drained proc alone would give this one to MM. It's basically like an additional attack whenever weakness is active. Edit 3: okay this is skill damage but still if you add in weapon damage too ;)

[Physiologic]

He did do numbers using a wand and doll, when comparing wands, stats are as follows:

Mega Mage w/ Gemstone Wand and Bracer
Lightning: 257-388
Firestorm: 270-383

Shadow Set
Lightning: 218-349
Firestorm: 231-344

In 100 hits (Shadows 25% crit, MM 8% crit):
Shadow = 35375 = 75*283+25*566
MM = 34784 = 92*322+8*645


Shadow still wins..

EDIT: just to clear things up, I have ONLY been discussing the use of a wand with both sets. I know the MM Staff is incredi-awesome in damage.


Again you have not figured in armor. You need to subtract armor from damage and 2 X armor from Crit damage. Despite all of this, I would still say sustained hits of 40 more damage, multiplied by the many targets the skill hits, would serve you far better than the occasional blast that overkills and wastes it's own damage accompanied by a majority of much weaker hits. PvP the Crit is more important, but for PvE big sustained damage gets the job done faster.

Edit: Just looking at your numbers, I think any reasonable armor value, even as low as 50, would swing things in favor of MM.

Hmm, alright I'll take that into account. Enemies in Alien Oasis 2 have an average armor value of 90. I haven't figured out AO3 and BS yet. But let's say it's around ~120 (my educated guess).

In 100 hits (Shadows 25% crit, MM 8% crit):
Shadow = 35375 = 75*(283-120) + 25*(2x(283-120)) = 20375
MM = 34784 = 92*(322-120)+8*(2x(322-120)) = 21816

~1500 damage difference, MM favored. I'd still consider this damage to be negligible on the battle field.

[Royce]

~1500 damage difference, MM favored. I'd still consider this damage to be negligible on the battle field.

The reason I believe the MM set in practice works so much better is, I believe, what I've been saying all along. Comparing damage over the long term has it's uses, but it doesn't account for overkill and things you only find in practice like the fact you can kill pretty much anything with your full rotation of skills even without a Crit with MM damage, and that maximizing sustained regular damage ends up being better in PvE since you waste less of that calculated damage output in overkill.

[Pharcyde]

Well it seems split 50/50.

Theres the half that think skill and base are more important.
Theres the other half that thinks crit and hit are more important.

So instead of arguing each of the points into the ground, lets be productive and test it! Or else this will turn into a filibuster.

Phys - How did you go about testing it? Did you use any buffs/debuffs or did you isolate the firestorm?
Also, do we know how much percent 1 crit equals? So would 25 crit = 25/100 chance to hit a critical hit?
Also, each skill is different, going about testing each skill twice would be 2,400 recorded hits. Why not just make a simpler experiment that would determine which set actually preforms better out on the field, instead of running tests on each skill individually?

[Physiologic]

The reason I believe the MM set in practice works so much better is, I believe, what I've been saying all along. Comparing damage over the long term has it's uses, but it doesn't account for overkill and things you only find in practice like the fact you can kill pretty much anything with your full rotation of skills even without a Crit with MM damage, and that maximizing sustained regular damage ends up being better in PvE since you waste less of that calculated damage output in overkill.

How often are you overkilling, though? Overkill happens just as well as underkill, and that relatively depends on enemy's health as well. I don't know how often a mage overkills compared to how often they underkill in Sewers, but I'll believe you when you say MM is more effective, since you're the mage and I'm an archer :p



Phys - How did you go about testing it? Did you use any buffs/debuffs or did you isolate the firestorm?


Nope - just simple calculations from the info provided :p

[Pharcyde]

How often are you overkilling, though? Overkill happens just as well as underkill, and that relatively depends on enemy's health as well. I don't know how often a mage overkills compared to how often they underkill in Sewers, but I'll believe you when you say MM is more effective, since you're the mage and I'm an archer :p

I think he is referring to 1v1 overkill. I only get overkill when I am hitting enemies close enough for the gem blast splash damage and then when I cast drain life and frost bite on a single enemy.

[Tiliana]

My question is... say you are lvl 51 int mage like me. Do you keep shadow gear until you reach 55 before you drop the massive amount of gold to purchase MM gear and hope you gets some drops on the way? It would be crazy to upgrade at 51, 53, and then 55. Do you buy pieces and lose the set bonus that came with full shadow set? Do you go with cheaper green/orange gear to get you to lvl 55 and then buy in hopes that the prices drop?

I feel like I am a pretty seasoned player and have held my own in the sewers with my shadow set, but I know my armor is lacking and so is my damage in BS.

[bravemenrun]

I would wait to hit 55 to buy the mega mage set. Only because by then prices will most likely drop. I got to 55 with shadow and xp pots. And I still don't want to spend the money on mega. Using bs greens for damage and shadow set for bs grates. keeps it interesting.

[Fatpigwarrior]

id go for mega mage because slight higher armor but all i can say is new sets arent that great

[Royce]

If you're looking at pure damage output alone, a point that shouldn't be missed is that Shadows is really not in the picture at all past level 50. Personally I think the MM damage works better than the shadow Crit, but if you want Crit, Shadows is still not the answer. Once you get to level 51 Flushers oranges are readily avaialble, cheap, and have the damage of MM (minus set bonus damage) with more Crit than Shadows, and Mastermind purps have lower damage than MM but also higher Crit than Shadows and don't entirely sacrifice regen like Flushers does. So the question really becomes do you value damage output and Crit (Flusher/Mastermind) enough to sacrifice the regen, armor and set bonus of MM for it. Personally I don't ;)

[noneo]

Well, I appreciate all of everyone's input and expertise on this subject. I happen to agree with Phar, and think that a test will be the best way of determining exactly how well the sets perform (I'm sure MM will be better, in fact, I would expect it since it is a lvl 55 gear). If anyone wants to help me out, I will probably be on around 11:00 a.m. to 1:00p.m. ish tomorrow (Central Time), let me know. Add featherliker and pm me that you want to do some studies.

Thanks!

[Pharcyde]

Well we already know MM preforms better in every other category. Were just unsure about mob clearing.

So even if MM isn't the best for mob clearing, it still has all the other sets outnumbered 2 to 1 for advantages. I just stress the crit and hit percent point, since I am literally obsessed with max possible damage.

[Yvonnel]

I have a set of flusher and mastermind (both level 53) that I use depending on what I am doing. I use the mastermind when I am in a group that has a couple of mages. I use the flushers when I am the only mage. I plan of farming and buying the MM set when I get to 55. And remember unless you are using a lvl 55 MM set there is no reason not the mix and match sets to get what you are looking for.

Edit: Although like Pharcyde I like seeing those big damage numbers. It is cool to damage pot and see 1000+ crit hit.

[Ayrilana]

Here is a level 56 build with mega mage. I was planning on doing some similar calculations, but you beat me to the punch:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TXbKHODa1eI/AAAAAAAAAL8/AzZe_wnJb5I/Wand%20and%20Bracer%20Build%2056.png

Give me a day or so - I will see if I can get the shadow (wand) set pic for posting. I have both; I just lended shadow to a buddy.

Here it is with gem blast and gemstone staff:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TXbKQJRLheI/AAAAAAAAAME/aAzhLjuzBAg/Gem%20Blast%20Build%2056.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_qxqUJiD0__c/TXrXm4ugBxI/AAAAAAAAAOA/Wqh78_5beg4/Gemstone%20Build%2056.png

Thanks! I was about to bother someone about this. Do you notice any significant difference between gem blast and gemstone staffs?

[Pharcyde]

Gem blast is area of damage.

Gem stone is single damage.

[WhoIsThis]

Thanks! I was about to bother someone about this. Do you notice any significant difference between gem blast and gemstone staffs?

Gem blast is basically like a more potent version of the Keeper's staff of the Cosmos. Same proc and AOE. Just no crit. I will be releasing a big guide on this at some point. Like the Keeper's staff, you can do additional damage by casting frostbite onto a target and freezing it (in fact, possibly more than the Gemstone).

Gemstone by contrast does slightly higher damage to a single target, slightly better armor, but no AOE.

Both staffs give the same skill damage bonuses. Both staffs will trigger the set bonus as well. I have a PDF comparing the 3 mega mage sets to the shadow sets that I will be releasing. On my to do list are comparisons to the cosmos set and other level 55 sets. Also, please disregard the calculations that the OP has made - as Royce has noted, they are not accurate and not reflective of real game conditions.

[Pharcyde]

I think keeper has higher splash damage. I notice with gem blast, that the enemies need to be a lot closer together to have multiple hits invoked.

[WhoIsThis]

I think keeper has higher splash damage. I notice with gem blast, that the enemies need to be a lot closer together to have multiple hits invoked.

Possibly true - I haven't tested yet. Of course, for splash damage area, nothing beats the older Apep Sunkillers.

[Pharcyde]

I can't think of any valid way to test it, but feel is definitely way different from MM to Keeper.

[MITSUISUN]

. I have a PDF comparing the 3 mega mage sets to the shadow sets that I will be releasing. On my to do list are comparisons to the cosmos set and other level 55 sets. Also, please disregard the calculations that the OP has made - as Royce has noted, they are not accurate and not reflective of real game conditions.

cant wait to read the awesome guide, elf. thumbs up

[anglfyr]

hmm interesting

[CosmoxKramer]

When i plug in the data to my emulator i built i get the following data. Basically MM gemstone wand weapon damage trends slightly higher versus low armor enemies because of the combo, Shadows wand is at about the same trend just slightly less. only slightly less because of the higher crit and being hit capped. As for Skill damage, the MM does more, but trends slower than the Shadows set because of the high crit in the Shadows set. either way, the total DPS from MM is much higher than that of the Shadows set at lvl 55.
http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm315/johnsbar/PL/shadowsvsmm.png

this is for single target dps

[Hullukko]

Well we already know MM preforms better in every other category. Were just unsure about mob clearing.

So even if MM isn't the best for mob clearing, it still has all the other sets outnumbered 2 to 1 for advantages. I just stress the crit and hit percent point, since I am literally obsessed with max possible damage.

Max dmg comes from scrubbers and scrapers, but the cost is in ms and armor. Overall mega wins in some sense though rarely go in all mega since i do want the crits one or two scrubbers give me. You mileage may vary. (talking about wanding here mostly though. When i go for staff i go for max damage and then its mega armor, scrubber staff and scraper hat. A little naked but deadly.)