A big request from an old player. (Read this one, devs.)

[D-:]

Sections
I. Introduction
II. Regarding Low Level PvP as a Whole
III. ALL Forg Items
IV. ALL Halloween items
V. Bringing Back the Old Days
VI. Summary and Speculations
VII. What Could Be the Outcome (Pro & Con)



Introduction
Why I'm writing this is because of one reason and one reason only. Low Level and the Pre forg days. All of these points may SEEM like a lot, at first glance. But, these are just a minor issue of the big problem at hand. This "big problem" is Low Level. (45 and below is my idea of low level. Some DO say twink is anything below 75-77, and I highly disagree. Will get more to this later.)

Low level is, simply put, unbalanced. That's just to say the least. The problem I have is the constant use of forgotten items. All the newer people (or new gens, no offense) actually think they have some skill with these items. These items include; Forgotten Bows (Pink or Purples, doesn't matter), Halloween Items (Mostly Paws and Reapers) and Plat Packs (STR Only, there is no issue with dex or int packs.)
What my request is... To make all forgotten items and Halloween Items OBSOLETE.
Let's get into this more in depth.

Low Level PvP as a Whole
When you think of these low levels, most people (who pvp 56+ normally) will say it is full of arrogant kids with no skill, or you only have 14 skill points, (15 bear) and everyone uses the same build, making it boring and non energetic like their fast paced 56+ levels. Now, as I agree 56+ can be more fast paced and energetic as a whole, I 100% believe low level can be just as fast paced if you play with other good players. Well, not as fast paced, that's impossible due to the gear. If what happens in this thread DOES come true, it will be even more slow paced due to nuking capabilities going out the window for mages and bears (25-27 Forg mages and bears, specifically.) What I am trying to get at here is people 56+ who try any level at low level complains it is slow paced, because there is not a lot of FFA and very scarcely are there ever any CTF games (22-30.) If you meet the right people, you will let it be fast paced. People often don't FFA or CTF because of KDR, which is absurd in my opinion. If people could get past this mind set, like how if they lose and call excuses, they would be an overall better player. Don't find excuses for your loss, figure out what you did wrong, and improve it.

"The lower the level, the lower the maturity." was a quote I got from a 77. While he shall remained unnamed, I will say this is completely false. I've met some of my best friends in low level. Some of which I'm still in touch with today. I met Call (19 Bird), Sit (15 Mage, one of my best friends from 2011.), Wrathfulbeast (one of my good friends at 26, very helpful to everyone who is in need of help.) and Gundamsone (17 bear.) These are just naming a few. My name used to be "Lost" an 18 bird. People often disregard low level as a no skill place for kids who don't know what they are doing. If you were to truly get rid of all items such as forgotten items and Halloween Items, I believe it would make a better community overall.

ALL Forgotten Items
Now, as almost all of you know, forgotten items are overpowered. But some of you may NOT know they used to be even more overpowered. This was when they first came out. They had to be nerfed because you could auto attack 150+. This caused an absolute outrage across ALL low level brackets. Entertaining's 17 bear guide (which was SUPER immersive for the time period) went from amazing to him saying a few sentences that went like this. "Buy fbow, rage, stomp, spam slashes, win." As a personal friend of Entertaining, he told me it took him around 3 1/2 - 4 hours to make his immersive and in depth guide for bear, and he decided to sacrifice all that time and effort to put just a few words. There is obviously something flawed with forgotten bows if this is what he did.

What I (and many other close friends of mine) propose is: Not to take forgotten items totally out of the game, but make their damage SO LOW that it cannot be used in PvP. This will keep collectors happy since it won't be totally removed out of the game, and it will make the lower level PvP brackets cause an uproar, both good and bad uproars. This decision obviously has pros and cons, which I'll get into in my VII. Pros And Cons section.

ALL Halloween Items
ALL Halloween items are highly sought after in low level. While these Halloween items don't make much of a change in the higher brackets, they most certainly do in the lower ones. "If you don't wear Halloween armor and helmet, you're doing it wrong." is what a low level once told me. This makes me in particular upset because you don't need a Halloween set to do well, in my opinion.

My proposition for this is similar to the forgotten items: Nerf all to be unusable in PvP.
Pros and cons will be in VII. Pros and Cons section as well.

Bringing Back the Old Days
Let bears, birds, and mages play Pre nerf if 49-. This would truly bring joy to my heart. Now, let me just say, (entirely opinion) you screwed up. On all 3 classes, not just bird.
For bird, you destroyed us. Making a bear have more dodge than a bird at almost all levels... Really? You killed birds ENTIRELY in the 35- brackets. No question about it.
For Mage, oh man. I can't be the only one that misses the good old 35 voodoo nukes. You made it less fun, and made all mages have less variety in builds.
For Bear, can't even remember. I never did bear before nerf. THAT BEING SAID, Pre nerf bear was probably a lot more fun than nerf bear.

Let us play Pre nerf if our level is below 50. You obviously won't do this though.
Summary
I want an answer, devs. Not just your usual "Sorry, not updating PL anymore" simple copy and paste answer. I want a real one. Why this can't happen. I'm almost POSITIVE you have a backup file prepared for pre nerf. This would not only benefit the entire low level community, but bring a hell of a lot more fun. This is not only regarding my point of view of "fun" but many others as well.

My speculation: This would bring nothing but more fun times, more people buying plat packs to be the best instead of Forgotten Items or Halloween. (Means more money in your pocket.) Since you obviously aren't updating the game, you should at least take this into consideration due to the simple fact all your updates (since 66 cap) have been nothing but benefiting high level players. Not a benefit for low level, if I recall correctly.

Pros and Cons
Forgotten Items
This is a big pro little con list. Let's get into it.

Pro: PvP will be like the old days.
Pro: You will definitely not get many egotistical people at the lower levels anymore due to there not being forgotten items to nuke others.
Pro: Almost the ENTIRE low level pvp community would thank you.
Con: Some collectors may be mad it doesn't do damage anymore, which why they would care, I have no idea. At least it wouldn't be removing forgotten items entirely.
Con: Newer players would complain due to the fact they can't play well anymore.

Halloween Items
Similar to forgotten items, this has a very similar pro and con list.

Pro: Drastically change PvP for the better.
*Rest of pros are with forgotten items*
Con: people who spent high amounts of money purchasing these items would have a problem. It would obviously be just a collector item.

This is all for now. Will be adding to this list later.
Let me know what you guys think. Do you disagree or agree? Why or why not? Would love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks.

[D-:]

Reserved.

[bosstinytitan]

Interesting, but there is no one class that can't be killed by another. In any level

[D-:]

Interesting, but there is no one class that can't be killed by another. In any level

Well, if you've done bird at 30 now, you'd see what I'm saying. Or 26. Or 35. Or 18.

The point is, the 3 main classes at brackets 49- are unbalanced. What I personally thought was it was totally fine the way it was Pre nerf.

[Befs]

Please!!!!!!! Listen to what he said about the pre-nerf for 49 and under. I miss the voodoo nukes :grey: it made pvp much faster paced and intense as it should be. PLEASE give us a real answer if you can't implement this change.

[iamtony]

These ideas are very good. I've been a pvper since the very day pvp was implemented into pocket legends. I can even tell you what what I was doing when it went down for the update. This has always been a great game and I don't get the joy of 26 pvp anymore as I did pre nerf. Onyx warbirds were super fun and bears were fun too. One of my first characters ever made was wrathfulbeast. I didn't have the same name back then but I had that same character since before pvp was even implemented on this game. Not bragging here im just simply showing Im not some kind of random person saying stuff. I know sts said they wouldn't update anymore but this literally wouldn't take that much work. If they just took like an hour of their day to stop on AL and fix PL they'd still be fine with AL and PL at the same time. We're not asking for much here, one minor pvp update has been most of the community's wishes since fbows were nerfed. This would make everyone's day that still plays pl. Since you devs say how much PL means to you please put some serious thought into this devs. You guys stated you loved it so much you even had some of your kids names as the NPC's. If you loved it that much you'd rethink this idea.

-Tony

[johnny6880]

Good luck they only care aboutAL

[synfullmagic_23110]

The dev is here

[Charmstrange]

Fbows are great for pve, and I have a great collection of them for farming and leveling new toons. To call for *another* nerf of fbows is just pvp-centric and selfish. IMO, pvp had a huge negative impact on the game, and already sucked up too much focus.

Please post pvp balance issues in the pvp section, as you are clearly not valuing the position of pve players, merchants, etc. in your narrowly focused post.

Btw, there won't be any more updates.

[Groaning]

hurry guys sell all your hallo and forgotten junk before they get nerfed >.<

[iamtony]

Fbows are great for pve, and I have a great collection of them for farming and leveling new toons. To call for *another* nerf of fbows is just pvp-centric and selfish. IMO, pvp had a huge negative impact on the game, and already sucked up too much focus.

Please post pvp balance issues in the pvp section, as you are clearly not valuing the position of pve players, merchants, etc. in your narrowly focused post.

Btw, there won't be any more updates.

pvp section is dead

[AppleNoob]

I was here before the "Great Nerf" and after. One of the things I learned was that prenerf was the best times of PvP. Back then, it seemed that all the oldies/pros kept the egos back and now nobody is left because of a simple nerf.

That being said, this idea should not go into effect because many more people (the sole survivors of PL) will leave because suddenly their 1m paw is crap and they can no longer PvP.

I don't pretend to know everything however if this idea is implemented, you will kill this game.

[Groaning]

Fbows are great for pve, and I have a great collection of them for farming and leveling new toons. To call for *another* nerf of fbows is just pvp-centric and selfish. IMO, pvp had a huge negative impact on the game, and already sucked up too much focus.

Please post pvp balance issues in the pvp section, as you are clearly not valuing the position of pve players, merchants, etc. in your narrowly focused post.

Btw, there won't be any more updates.

for most of us pvp is one of the few reasons we still play so he is speaking to most of the population

[Burstnuke]

It's not just low levels anymore (never was) IMO, at lvl 50 all are from lvl 40 with plat packs. They all have huge egos. 56 egos aren't common anymore, 50-51 though......Lol.

[Burstnuke]

I was here before the "Great Nerf" and after. One of the things I learned was that prenerf was the best times of PvP. Back then, it seemed that all the oldies/pros kept the egos back and now nobody is left because of a simple nerf.

That being said, this idea should not go into effect because many more people (the sole survivors of PL) will leave because suddenly their 1m paw is crap and they can no longer PvP.

I don't pretend to know everything however if this idea is implemented, you will kill this game.

Lol, you obviously weren't here when a bigger thing happened. When forgs were released it killed low level pvp, and from there it went downhill.

-There was no Variety between weapons just forgs.

-Halloween came out and it had op stats for some dumb reason which made lower lvl pvp worser.

-Egos started rising as all thought they were good with these op weapons which even brought more luck to lower lvls.

-Before forgs there was variety of builds as well.

Before forgs lower levels were so fun, if forgs never happened i think i would have still pvped down there.. Before forgs everyone tried varietes of Toys and SSC sets. Toys weren't overpowered vs SSC sets and both faired well against each other.
Back then you could choose from nuke, tank, or mixed build. All builds were viable if they focused on their liking (tank, nuke, mixed). This was lvl 26 for me before forgs. I miss it so much IMO, and if this idea were implemented it would bring joy back to lower lvls.

And, before the great nerf lower lvl pvp was still bad, there were a lot of egos lol.

[DivineMoustache]

edit: read two posts below

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing their usefulness to PvP, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The further nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail on the head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

[iamtony]

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing them, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail as a head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

He never said remove them. He said make them so they have no damage.

[DivineMoustache]

He never said remove them. He said make them so they have no damage.

Yes please replace the word remove with "remove any usefulness in PvP"

[iamtony]

Yes please replace the word remove with "remove any usefulness in PvP"

Fbows/hallow stuff just make pvp have no skill. People who barely know their ranges jut spam skills and win.

[iamtony]

Also WF stuff is completely balanced with other gear.

[DivineMoustache]

Fbows/hallow stuff just make pvp have no skill. People who barely know their ranges jut spam skills and win.

That's as far from the truth as I'd ever hope to see from someone who is a premier low leveler. I doubt you have ever been crushed by anybody who has spammed skills against you. First of all, there's not that many skills to spam at low level anyway. Second of all, you can't win by spamming skills in a random order at low level.

Except HS bear, where the first HS matters but if you don't kill them fast enough, they can get lucky and HS you, while you miss your second HS.

[iamtony]

That's as far from the truth as I'd ever hope to see from someone who is a premier low leveler. I doubt you have ever been crushed by anybody who has spammed skills against you. First of all, there's not that many skills to spam at low level anyway. Second of all, you can't win by spamming skills in a random order at low level.

Except HS bear, where the first HS matters but if you don't kill them fast enough, they can get lucky and HS you, while you miss your second HS.

Use a demon claw and go against an fbow bear and you'll know what I mean. By spamming skills that's obviously exaggerated, which you know that.

[DivineMoustache]

Use a demon claw and go against an fbow bear and you'll know what I mean. By spamming skills that's obviously exaggerated, which you know that.

Use an fbow against them then lol. If you're judging fbows by the fact that you try to use worse weapons against people who use fbows, that's a pretty huge fallacy. It's like complaining that a voodoo pin is OP because you can't beat them with your shivering talon.

I haven't played much of 25 bear to be honest, I do L22 bow bear and L20 talon/fbow bear. At Level 20 you can easily beat an bow bear using a talon. Im guessing at L25 the smash combo neutralizes high HS to start with though. If you use an f bow against another f bow, more than likely that you/the more skill person will win against someone else.

[iamtony]

Use an fbow against them then lol. If you're judging fbows by the fact that you try to use worse weapons against people who use fbows, that's a pretty huge fallacy. It's like complaining that a voodoo pin is OP because you can't beat them with your shivering talon.

I haven't played much of 25 bear to be honest, I do L22 bow bear and L20 talon/fbow bear. At Level 20 you can easily beat an bow bear using a talon. Im guessing at L25 the smash combo neutralizes high HS to start with though. If you use an f bow against another f bow, more than likely that you/the more skill person will win against someone else.

Talon and fbows are the same level while voodoo pins and shivering are not.

[D-:]

edit: read two posts below

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing their usefulness to PvP, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The further nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail on the head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

I honestly wish I could agree with your post.

By a change of culture I meant an entirely new culture of no fbow and Halloween.
Thanks for the reply though, i enjoyed how in depth you went with it.

[DivineMoustache]

Talon and fbows are the same level while voodoo pins and shivering are not.

fbow is decidedly better than demon claw just like a voodoo pin is to a shivering. The fact of the matter is, you're using an item that's pretty much worse than an fbow in order to say that a noob with an fbow can beat a pro. Obviously there is a chance of that happening when the pro is using an item with 30 less damage per hit.


I honestly wish I could agree with your post.

By a change of culture I meant an entirely new culture of no fbow and Halloween.
Thanks for the reply though, i enjoyed how in depth you went with it.

Yeah, low level is something I'm pretty passionate about in game.

Not sure how getting rid of items will make people FFA more.

[iamtony]

fbow is decidedly better than demon claw just like a voodoo pin is to a shivering. The fact of the matter is, you're using an item that's pretty much worse than an fbow in order to say that a noob with an fbow can beat a pro. Obviously there is a chance of that happening when the pro is using an item with 30 less damage per hit.



Yeah, low level is something I'm pretty passionate about in game.

Not sure how getting rid of items will make people FFA more.

Alrigh lets just say we're both right. Going nowhere :/.

[Jig]

Asking for a lot after devs saying no more updates lol but worth a shot

[Xyzther]

Lol, you obviously weren't here when a bigger thing happened. When forgs were released it killed low level pvp, and from there it went downhill.

-There was no Variety between weapons just forgs.

-Halloween came out and it had op stats for some dumb reason which made lower lvl pvp worser.

-Egos started rising as all thought they were good with these op weapons which even brought more luck to lower lvls.

-Before forgs there was variety of builds as well.

Before forgs lower levels were so fun, if forgs never happened i think i would have still pvped down there.. Before forgs everyone tried varietes of Toys and SSC sets. Toys weren't overpowered vs SSC sets and both faired well against each other.
Back then you could choose from nuke, tank, or mixed build. All builds were viable if they focused on their liking (tank, nuke, mixed). This was lvl 26 for me before forgs. I miss it so much IMO, and if this idea were implemented it would bring joy back to lower lvls.

And, before the great nerf lower lvl pvp was still bad, there were a lot of egos lol.

love your sig

[iRandom]

edit: read two posts below

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing their usefulness to PvP, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The further nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail on the head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

Dont blame the fbows! Make a level 15 bear with no vanities with expert and hallo using a purp forg! then rush the opest looking bear in the room!!!! yayy

[XghostzX]

I don't play twinks normally, so I can't give much input. I do know, however, that I miss playing my 35 voodoo mage. Those pesky items they implemented really ruined the gameplay and class-balance... plus, the voodoo mage community was closely-knit. I think it would kindle a genuinely better community without some of these insane stats.

[ToastyLord]

I agree with divine moustache.

1, this would make PL a lot more 'pay to win'
2, no more updates
3, really? Can you just "spam skills and win" with hallo/forg? Remember, if they're really OP, everyone will be able to get it. That means the pros as well as the nubs will be able to get hallo/forg, so generally the pros will win either way
4, like divine said, forg/hallo doesn't grant stomp range knowledge or timing.
5, why would you wanna go back to the "old days"? Do you really wanna move backwards ?! I don't wanna know why.
6, no more updates, stop dreaming

And as a big low level pvper, I would definitely not be happy with this update, but that's just my opionin

[yousocrazy]

you are all exercising your fingers for no reason. there will be no balance or rebalance or even any thought from the development team about this thread. sadly these are all just pipe dreams and my friends, it's time to wake up.

[Jig]

you are all exercising your fingers for no reason. there will be no balance or rebalance or even any thought from the development team about this thread. sadly these are all just pipe dreams and my friends, it's time to wake up.

The thread created can do what he wants, if Sts wants to keep PL DL SL forums online, then why not try anyways...

Yes it most likely seems they won't listen anymore they said no more updates, things can change, not saying it will, it's just a good thing to think like this.

[D-:]

fbow is decidedly better than demon claw just like a voodoo pin is to a shivering. The fact of the matter is, you're using an item that's pretty much worse than an fbow in order to say that a noob with an fbow can beat a pro. Obviously there is a chance of that happening when the pro is using an item with 30 less damage per hit.


Yeah, low level is something I'm pretty passionate about in game.

Not sure how getting rid of items will make people FFA more.


Never said people should FFA more after nerf, but most people in high level pvp complain about the lack of it. I was just saying as a general idea for people to get out of just "go" fights and never doing FFA.


I don't play twinks normally, so I can't give much input. I do know, however, that I miss playing my 35 voodoo mage. Those pesky items they implemented really ruined the gameplay and class-balance... plus, the voodoo mage community was closely-knit. I think it would kindle a genuinely better community without some of these insane stats.

Thanks, this is how I saw it as well.




I agree with divine moustache.

1, this would make PL a lot more 'pay to win'
2, no more updates
3, really? Can you just "spam skills and win" with hallo/forg? Remember, if they're really OP, everyone will be able to get it. That means the pros as well as the nubs will be able to get hallo/forg, so generally the pros will win either way
4, like divine said, forg/hallo doesn't grant stomp range knowledge or timing.
5, why would you wanna go back to the "old days"? Do you really wanna move backwards ?! I don't wanna know why.
6, no more updates, stop dreaming

And as a big low level pvper, I would definitely not be happy with this update, but that's just my opionin

1.) It may be, but before forgotten items came out, people had no problem with others using a dex plat pack at 10-20 from my experience.
2.) Things can change, simply put.
3.) Both pros and noobs with a bit of gold can grab a purple forgotten item. These forgotten items simply can outclass WF items, (Toymans in particular.)
4) Well, either way, it helps you have a LOT more chance of winning by using the items.
5.) LMAO. You're obviously a newer player. You know nothing about the old days.
6.) You already said this, why say it again? To emphasize it? Yeah, ok. We get it.

[GiveMeWings]

I agree with all, except maybe with fbows:yeh they are op in almost all level to 30, but I won´t nerf them so they could be useless, maybe I would nerf some of them,but keeping other levels like 15 or 20, (idk which levels) some levels which fbow are still good. Like in all pvp levels, there are some gear which is the best, so fbows could be one maybe a specific pvp level.

[bearuang]

1. well alot of ppl spent times to afford those items with worth gold now because irs a good tdm weapon, so if its happen alot of ppl will be bankrupt
2. whats make it diffrent now? everyone could afford fbow, if you say a nub with fbow spam skills could easy kill, how about old player with fbow?
3. see from the pov where 18 bear could kill 22 bear because fbow (both got fbow) its also balance pvp, imagine if there are no fbow they will farm lower level so hard
4. this is something more complicated than endgamers want 2pc to be craftable or asking for 3pc, so i think they will not do any act to this
5. why its so hard to make ppl understand that they will give no more update..


@divine vodoo its 35 and shivering its 30, but demon its 25 and also there is a lv 25fbow

[iamtony]

1. well alot of ppl spent times to afford those items with worth gold now because irs a good tdm weapon, so if its happen alot of ppl will be bankrupt
2. whats make it diffrent now? everyone could afford fbow, if you say a nub with fbow spam skills could easy kill, how about old player with fbow?
3. see from the pov where 18 bear could kill 22 bear because fbow (both got fbow) its also balance pvp, imagine if there are no fbow they will farm lower level so hard
4. this is something more complicated than endgamers want 2pc to be craftable or asking for 3pc, so i think they will not do any act to this
5. why its so hard to make ppl understand that they will give no more update..


@divine vodoo its 35 and shivering its 30, but demon its 25 and also there is a lv 25fbow

When I use Fbow against other FBOW Bears it's just no fun because I win 49/50 fights with it. Demon claw makes it not as luck based. By spamming skills I didn't mean that literally. I mean people can just use beckon hs cb stomp sms and one or the other was usually dead by then. Fights that quick aren't based off of skill.

[iamtony]

That's another reason I dislike Levels above like 50 because the insane dodges make it luck based.

[D-:]

1. well alot of ppl spent times to afford those items with worth gold now because irs a good tdm weapon, so if its happen alot of ppl will be bankrupt
2. whats make it diffrent now? everyone could afford fbow, if you say a nub with fbow spam skills could easy kill, how about old player with fbow?
3. see from the pov where 18 bear could kill 22 bear because fbow (both got fbow) its also balance pvp, imagine if there are no fbow they will farm lower level so hard
4. this is something more complicated than endgamers want 2pc to be craftable or asking for 3pc, so i think they will not do any act to this
5. why its so hard to make ppl understand that they will give no more update..


@divine vodoo its 35 and shivering its 30, but demon its 25 and also there is a lv 25fbow

Listen to iamtony.

[DivineMoustache]

When I use Fbow against other FBOW Bears it's just no fun because I win 49/50 fights with it. Demon claw makes it not as luck based. By spamming skills I didn't mean that literally. I mean people can just use beckon hs cb stomp sms and one or the other was usually dead by then. Fights that quick aren't based off of skill.

So...one in fifty of your fights are ruined by bow? That's a 2% chance of a lucky fight occurring. Not sure what you're saying with this.

edit: also regarding your point about quick fights -

if you think fbows make fights quick now, prefbow fights were just as quick. You're forgetting that before fbows were introduced and nerfed, skill damage and buffs as a whole were higher. Also, quickness doesn't mean no skill at all. I think quick fights make HS bear even more skill based, because it allows the other bear less time to get lucky with a random HS to hit you and then somehow your HS misses. The only problem I had with the fbows prenerf were that fights were quick to the point where they lasted 2 seconds. Everyone had to have extreme knowledge of range (skill), but a win after a drain frost fire didn't leave me that satisfied. These days, I think fights are the perfect pace.

[Rescind]

This is my perspective on things:
1. You stated that 56+ was high paced. Imo fbows and paws help low level ranges get a little high high paced action. Fights definitely end faster with the use of fbows and paws.
2. You said we should make fbows,paws,etc obsolete. From what i experience, these items are mostly OP due to their procs. At low levels, we have very little hit and armor. With that being said, the fbow proc stacking -15hit twice can be devastating. With our low armor, the paw proc of -25 armor can definitely take a toll on your hp. As for me, I think taking away their procs will do us more justice than making them obsolete as a whole. Also, fbows aren't only used for pvp. I use some odd leveled fbows to lvl up my toons/farm with at the lower lvls. Making paws,fbow, etcc obsolete will have a negative effect at lower lvls with the rich being able to afford the better WF items. Not everyone can afford the l15 sbls and toys.as you know, minor stat boosts can determine a fight at lower lvls.

[ToastyLord]

1.) It may be, but before forgotten items came out, people had no problem with others using a dex plat pack at 10-20 from my experience.
2.) Things can change, simply put.
3.) Both pros and noobs with a bit of gold can grab a purple forgotten item. These forgotten items simply can outclass WF items, (Toymans in particular.)
4) Well, either way, it helps you have a LOT more chance of winning by using the items.
5.) LMAO. You're obviously a newer player. You know nothing about the old days.
6.) You already said this, why say it again? To emphasize it? Yeah, ok. We get it.

I can see where you're going, but really, think about it..

Everyone uses forg/hallo, is it really OP now that everyone is using it? They're cheap enough so EVERYONE to be able to buy it. Say hallo/forg were insanely nerfed to where they're no longer useful in PvP. This would make people who are insanely rich (and can afford toys and such) or those who can spend money on the game to get plat packs at the top of the food chain! IMO, this would make things worse.

Also, forg (mainly purp) can easily be beaten with certain strategies and items.

Btw, is it bad to be a new player? You say that like it is. And yes, I have played low lvl pvp before forg.

My main point is, would this really fix anything?! Just think, after this, WF items would be the main OP items, except for the fact that they'd be too expensive for the people with lower amounts of gold, so instead of everyone having a chance at getting good gear, only the rich would.

[MercherofPL]

Intresting topic

[iamtony]

So...one in fifty of your fights are ruined by bow? That's a 2% chance of a lucky fight occurring. Not sure what you're saying with this.

edit: also regarding your point about quick fights -

if you think fbows make fights quick now, prefbow fights were just as quick. You're forgetting that before fbows were introduced and nerfed, skill damage and buffs as a whole were higher. Also, quickness doesn't mean no skill at all. I think quick fights make HS bear even more skill based, because it allows the other bear less time to get lucky with a random HS to hit you and then somehow your HS misses. The only problem I had with the fbows prenerf were that fights were quick to the point where they lasted 2 seconds. Everyone had to have extreme knowledge of range (skill), but a win after a drain frost fire didn't leave me that satisfied. These days, I think fights are the perfect pace.

I believe I've already stated that some of my words were exaggerated, so is the 49/50 fights. Also take a look here.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exaggeration

[iamtony]

So...one in fifty of your fights are ruined by bow? That's a 2% chance of a lucky fight occurring. Not sure what you're saying with this.

edit: also regarding your point about quick fights -

if you think fbows make fights quick now, prefbow fights were just as quick. You're forgetting that before fbows were introduced and nerfed, skill damage and buffs as a whole were higher. Also, quickness doesn't mean no skill at all. I think quick fights make HS bear even more skill based, because it allows the other bear less time to get lucky with a random HS to hit you and then somehow your HS misses. The only problem I had with the fbows prenerf were that fights were quick to the point where they lasted 2 seconds. Everyone had to have extreme knowledge of range (skill), but a win after a drain frost fire didn't leave me that satisfied. These days, I think fights are the perfect pace.

Fbow fights were quick pre nerf and they still are. Just not as quick as they used to be. Fbow fights are based off of luck usually. That's why I prefer using weapons that take skill. I can't even be sure if you played pre forgotten because you don't seem to understand that it was almost 100 percent balanced then. You tried saying WF stuff would rule pvp if these got taken out, people pre forg used WF a lot and ssc/plat pack sets a lot and they were all balanced. It didn't rule pvp back then when there wasn't even a such thing as an fbow or halloween armor/helm. Also don't get me weong, i like quicker fights but the fbow fights as of now are luck a lot of times, but there is a little more skill than luck involved.

[iamtony]

I can see where you're going, but really, think about it..

Everyone uses forg/hallo, is it really OP now that everyone is using it? They're cheap enough so EVERYONE to be able to buy it. Say hallo/forg were insanely nerfed to where they're no longer useful in PvP. This would make people who are insanely rich (and can afford toys and such) or those who can spend money on the game to get plat packs at the top of the food chain! IMO, this would make things worse.

Also, forg (mainly purp) can easily be beaten with certain strategies and items.

Btw, is it bad to be a new player? You say that like it is. And yes, I have played low lvl pvp before forg.

My main point is, would this really fix anything?! Just think, after this, WF items would be the main OP items, except for the fact that they'd be too expensive for the people with lower amounts of gold, so instead of everyone having a chance at getting good gear, only the rich would.

WF items are just as balanced as platpacks/ssc items. Why do you think there aren't any threads complaining about WF items after 2010 WF event?

[Rescind]

WF items are just as balanced as platpacks/ssc items. Why do you think there aren't any threads complaining about WF items after 2010 WF event?

There were complaints of how there weren't l15 versions of candles back then. Does that count?

[iamtony]

There were complaints of how there weren't l15 versions of candles back then. Does that count?

lol

[AppleNoob]

Fbow fights were quick pre nerf and they still are. Just not as quick as they used to be. Fbow fights are based off of luck usually. That's why I prefer using weapons that take skill. I can't even be sure if you played pre forgotten because you don't seem to understand that it was almost 100 percent balanced then. You tried saying WF stuff would rule pvp if these got taken out, people pre forg used WF a lot and ssc/plat pack sets a lot and they were all balanced. It didn't rule pvp back then when there wasn't even a such thing as an fbow or halloween armor/helm. Also don't get me weong, i like quicker fights but the fbow fights as of now are luck a lot of times, but there is a little more skill than luck involved.
Divine is a founder and I know he was here pre-nerf and pre-forgotten.

Also, fbow takes skill to use effectively. Yes, people often times use it in the way of spamming, spamming, spamming. However, it takes some skill to press the auto button and to know when to actually use it and what range it is.

[DivineMoustache]

Fbow fights were quick pre nerf and they still are. Just not as quick as they used to be. Fbow fights are based off of luck usually. That's why I prefer using weapons that take skill. I can't even be sure if you played pre forgotten because you don't seem to understand that it was almost 100 percent balanced then. You tried saying WF stuff would rule pvp if these got taken out, people pre forg used WF a lot and ssc/plat pack sets a lot and they were all balanced. It didn't rule pvp back then when there wasn't even a such thing as an fbow or halloween armor/helm. Also don't get me weong, i like quicker fights but the fbow fights as of now are luck a lot of times, but there is a little more skill than luck involved.

Yes, WF stuff used to also cost around 1-3M maximum back then, now the best stuff is 30M. There's a difference between affordable and exclusivity.

I also can't be sure if you played pre forgotten because you don't seem to understand that it was not remotely close to 100% balanced back then. Bears ruled low level PvP at level 15 back then, now there's tons of competition from L15 mages who can tank the lower damage from nerf, from L17 Rhinos who are given the ability to do some auto damage output and do insane combo damage, from L17 Nuke birds (although Xbow is easy to kill them with.) L27 was ruled by mages pre-nerf, any good kiter could kill a bear in one or two go arounds. These days, mages are still on top there, but bears have a chance. Foxes have a chance. Rhinos and birds don't though.
You also seem to believe the removal of forgotten bows usefulness would remake PvP back to the nostalgic glory days. It won't. That would only reduce damage across the board, and reduce any balance that low level PvP actually has right now.


edits to all quotes coming:


I believe I've already stated that some of my words were exaggerated, so is the 49/50 fights. Also take a look here.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exaggeration

Dear Iamtony,

today I hope you learn that exaggeration should not be used in a conversation that involves people attempting to use facts and logic rather than outlandish claims derived from "exaggerations."


WF items are just as balanced as platpacks/ssc items. Why do you think there aren't any threads complaining about WF items after 2010 WF event?

You seem to like Entertaining and his friend Yich. Please be directed to this quote from Yich, a credible source for low level twinking as they come:

"The previous "special" weapon. The Snowball Launcher (SBL), is very much overpowered in low level PvP. This was also a commonly used weapon before the forgotten bows, the 15 purple SBL. It ranged from 350-500k. The proc freezes your opponent if you're lucky, giving you the chance to stomp them for a COMBO, dealing extra damage and looking pretty sweet." --Yich in his thread specifically talking about the OPness of Forgotten Bows before the nerf.


Insulting a founder, especially one who didn't buy it..


Apple, I appreciate the support, but let's not start any side drama. I like this topic and I'd like to keep it on the rails.

[iamtony]

Yes, WF stuff used to also cost around 1-3M maximum back then, now the best stuff is 30M. There's a difference between affordable and exclusivity.

I also can't be sure if you played pre forgotten because you don't seem to understand that it was not remotely close to 100% balanced back then. Bears ruled low level PvP at level 15 back then, now there's tons of competition from L15 mages who can tank the lower damage from nerf, from L17 Rhinos who are given the ability to do some auto damage output and do insane combo damage, from L17 Nuke birds (although Xbow is easy to kill them with.) L27 was ruled by mages pre-nerf, any good kiter could kill a bear in one or two go arounds. These days, mages are still on top there, but bears have a chance. Foxes have a chance. Rhinos and birds don't though.
You also seem to believe the removal of forgotten bows usefulness would remake PvP back to the nostalgic glory days. It won't. That would only reduce damage across the board, and reduce any balance that low level PvP actually has right now.


edits to all quotes coming:



Dear Iamtony,

today I hope you learn that exaggeration should not be used in a conversation that involves people attempting to use facts and logic rather than outlandish claims derived from "exaggerations."

I've been playing bear since before there even was a pvp. I also understand fbows were completely unbalanced pre nerf, nowhere in this thread did i show I didn't understand that. But if the devs made buffs have more crit and dodge like they used to it would be like pre forg all over again.

[DivineMoustache]

I've been playing bear since before there even was a pvp. I also understand fbows were completely unbalanced pre nerf, nowhere in this thread did i show I didn't understand that. But if the devs made buffs have more crit and dodge like they used to it would be like pre forg all over again.

What your first sentence shows me is that you're reading slightly wrong. The thing you quoted was about pre FORGOTTEN, not pre nerf. I was answering to your statement that pre forg was balanced.

[iamtony]

What your first sentence shows me is that you're reading slightly wrong. The thing you quoted was about pre FORGOTTEN, not pre nerf. I was answering to your statement that pre forg was balanced.

This thread is about going back to pre forgotten not nerf.

[iamtony]

Yes, WF stuff used to also cost around 1-3M maximum back then, now the best stuff is 30M. There's a difference between affordable and exclusivity.

I also can't be sure if you played pre forgotten because you don't seem to understand that it was not remotely close to 100% balanced back then. Bears ruled low level PvP at level 15 back then, now there's tons of competition from L15 mages who can tank the lower damage from nerf, from L17 Rhinos who are given the ability to do some auto damage output and do insane combo damage, from L17 Nuke birds (although Xbow is easy to kill them with.) L27 was ruled by mages pre-nerf, any good kiter could kill a bear in one or two go arounds. These days, mages are still on top there, but bears have a chance. Foxes have a chance. Rhinos and birds don't though.
You also seem to believe the removal of forgotten bows usefulness would remake PvP back to the nostalgic glory days. It won't. That would only reduce damage across the board, and reduce any balance that low level PvP actually has right now.


edits to all quotes coming:



Dear Iamtony,

today I hope you learn that exaggeration should not be used in a conversation that involves people attempting to use facts and logic rather than outlandish claims derived from "exaggerations."



You seem to like Entertaining and his friend Yich. Please be directed to this quote from Yich, a credible source for low level twinking as they come:

"The previous "special" weapon. The Snowball Launcher (SBL), is very much overpowered in low level PvP. This was also a commonly used weapon before the forgotten bows, the 15 purple SBL. It ranged from 350-500k. The proc freezes your opponent if you're lucky, giving you the chance to stomp them for a COMBO, dealing extra damage and looking pretty sweet." --Yich in his thread specifically talking about the OPness of Forgotten Bows before the nerf.



Apple, I appreciate the support, but let's not start any side drama. I like this topic and I'd like to keep it on the rails.

Read what i bolded.

[iamtony]

Divine is a founder and I know he was here pre-nerf and pre-forgotten.

Also, fbow takes skill to use effectively. Yes, people often times use it in the way of spamming, spamming, spamming. However, it takes some skill to press the auto button and to know when to actually use it and what range it is.

If someone is a founder that doesn't mean they were active back then. I have a founders account and i only have logged on it probably around 3-4 times. I didn't really like my old founders account because the founders helm and veteran stuff are the only vanities on them. My neighbor plays PL and I gave it to him while we were on the bus and I thought he'd like it but he got banned like a year ago. Lol.

[Electrophiles]

I don't think devs will do anything...
Ppl like doloway and attackmage have made very detailed thoughout threads but still nothing happened from devs...

Also, I doubt more than 1% of the current pl community actually played before 50 cap

I myself started sewers and I still consider myself a rarity among the current endgame populace...

TBH I'm not even sure you played before 50 cap lol

[DivineMoustache]

This thread is about going back to pre forgotten not nerf.



The thing you quoted was about pre forgotten, not about pre nerf. lmao.

Let me break this down for you man.

1) I responded to your claim about Pre Forgotten era PvP.
2) You answered in terms of Pre - NERF PvP.
3) I told you to re-read because your answer wasn't even relevant to mine. Pre Nerf does not = Pre Forgotten.
4) You bolded me saying Pre Forgotten, then let me know that the thread is talking about Pre Forgotten era PvP. Thanks. I think I already knew that, given that the whole paragraph I just typed was about pre forgotten. You bolded it yourself. Are you having trouble with reading what I write or what?

[Rescind]

You might as well get rid of the lvl15/25/35 counterparts of WF items as well if you're trying to get rid of paws and fbows entirely. That way it'll be truly balanced as everyone will be using the same items. No need for sbls, toys, and tinsels

[iamtony]

The thing you quoted was about pre forgotten, not about pre nerf. lmao.

Let me break this down for you man.

1) I responded to your claim about Pre Forgotten era PvP.
2) You answered in terms of Pre - NERF PvP.
3) I told you to re-read because your answer wasn't even relevant to mine. Pre Nerf does not = Pre Forgotten.
4) You bolded me saying Pre Forgotten, then let me know that the thread is talking about Pre Forgotten era PvP. Thanks. I think I already knew that, given that the whole paragraph I just typed was about pre forgotten. You bolded it yourself. Are you having trouble with reading what I write or what?

I know what the difference between pre forgotten and pre nerf is.

[DivineMoustache]

I know what the difference between pre forgotten and pre nerf is.

Good, that way maybe you can understand that the series of double posts that you just posted made no sense.

[ToastyLord]

I don't know why some are still debating about this. I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Forg/hallo are OP most would say, but they're relatively cheap. That means everyone can get it, right? When something is unbalanced, it means that only a select few can get it, and it gives a big boost. Founders on a lv15 mage would be a good example. If an item everyone owns is really good, you can't say it's unbalanced because everyone owns it, giving everyone (even the poor players) a good fighting chance.

As for the subject that Fbow/hallo requires no skill, one could argue that they're all luck. To a certain degree, everything about PL involves luck, and like DivineMoustache said, forg/hallo doesn't grant range knowledge or stomp timing. Also, seeing as WF items involve procs as well, forg/hallo requires just as much skill.

Removing forg/hallo from PvP would only make it so WF items would be the OP stuff. Only, just the rich would be able to get it, making PvP truly unbalanced.

Hopefully ^ this was simple enough.

[iamtony]

I don't think devs will do anything...
Ppl like doloway and attackmage have made very detailed thoughout threads but still nothing happened from devs...

Also, I doubt more than 1% of the current pl community actually played before 50 cap

I myself started sewers and I still consider myself a rarity among the current endgame populace...

TBH I'm not even sure you played before 50 cap lol

Actually I've been playing since April 8th 2010, 5 days after PL was made.

[iamtony]

Good, that way maybe you can understand that the series of double posts that you just posted made no sense.

I don't have time to re-read everything. This is all opinion based so we both are right I guess. Let's just forget about our recent posts because this is just gonna go back and forth. I don't want this thread being closed because of arguing. I hope you understand where I am coming from. Thanks.

[Electrophiles]

You might as well get rid of the lvl15/25/35 counterparts of WF items as well if you're trying to get rid of paws and fbows entirely. That way it'll be truly balanced as everyone will be using the same items. No need for sbls, toys, and tinsels

pre-forg halloween sucked. everyone used wf twink items; for example tinsel talon+ornament or sbl was super common...not many mage/bird compared to bears as today tho
if you remove wf op items, then it won't even be pre-forg

tbh i think most people twink at low levels just for the feeling of being op. if everyone used those regular pink bows then itwould be quit eboring to pvp

[Burstnuke]

edit: read two posts below

I agree with most of your points except the most important one: Fbows/Paws/Str Packs don't automatically grant noobs skill. An f bow doesn't grant stomp range knowledge. A paw doesn't grant MS timing. The procs of the new generation weapons are often complained about, but they don't really affect more than 1/5 of fights. 4/5 of the time, the person who has more skill will win.

Another thing I have against further nerf of fbows/whatever/etc. is that by removing their usefulness to PvP, you're forcing low level PvP into using either:
a) Platinum exclusive items - when the best items are achievable via in game currency, it becomes something known as Pay to win.
b) Extremely expensive gold items- Fbows/paws cost around 3M, and are considered the best items at low level, and there's a decent enough supply to where pretty much anyone with the gold can find one. This is decently affordable. In comparison, the best items at the levels 10-30 (which is pretty much what an bow nerf would affect) would be narrowed down to Winter Fest SBLs (L15 Bear) and Toys (L15/25 Mage) which cost around 30M and allow people with insane amounts of gold to bottleneck the arena.

The further nerf of these items would also deal a devastating impact to the "balance" and variety that low level actually has. Low level is surprisingly balanced contrary to what many believe, there's just a stigma against it due to the immaturity of some members of the community (which is also silly, every level has immature people.) I'm just going to do a run down of what all would be pretty much eliminated from usefulness in low level PvP if these items are nerfed even more.
Fbows/paws/str packs have granted incredible variety and viability almost all the different classes in low level twinking, for example, L17 Rhinos with fbows can beat many L15 bow bears, and absolute demolish mages. Without an f bow, rhinos would be pretty much eliminated from the equation.

However, I think the true value of your post comes in the Low Level as a Whole section. You hit the nail on the head right there. You don't need to nerf fbows to bring back a sense of fun. Change the culture. Do some FFA in Low Level, as it can get just as exciting as any FFA in high level. If anything, you could remove everything else in your post besides this, and your message would stay the same to me. Want to make low level more appealing? don't blame the fbows. Change the culture.

Low level variety? Don't make me laugh imo. Everyone uses forgs, plat packs, and halloween crap. FFA was almost never happening in lower lvls not even before forgs. And pink 25 toys have 2 more damage 2 more hit then purp, Lol. You were obviously not here before in 26. Actually before forgs, SSC sets that used tank/nuke builds could easily beat toy, yes even lvl 25 toy. people would use the lvl 15 armors and diffrent wings shield and all. And we do need to nerf fbows, Lol. Don't blame the fbows not the culture? Lol. Once fbows came egos started rising as i said, and ffa games were never apparent even before forgs came out. And did you say nerfing these items would make it less balanced? Lol.

Fbows do grant skill to noobs, one can easily proc blind hit which is way overpowred down there and plat packs are plain op same with halloween poop. Oh and low level as a whole is not only lvl 15, sir.

[Burstnuke]

pre-forg halloween sucked. everyone used wf twink items; for example tinsel talon+ornament or sbl was super common...not many mage/bird compared to bears as today tho
if you remove wf op items, then it won't even be pre-forg

tbh i think most people twink at low levels just for the feeling of being op. if everyone used those regular pink bows then itwould be quit eboring to pvp

Id rather have WF items common more then forg trash.

[Burstnuke]

I don't know why some are still debating about this. I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

Forg/hallo are OP most would say, but they're relatively cheap. That means everyone can get it, right? When something is unbalanced, it means that only a select few can get it, and it gives a big boost. Founders on a lv15 mage would be a good example. If an item everyone owns is really good, you can't say it's unbalanced because everyone owns it, giving everyone (even the poor players) a good fighting chance.

As for the subject that Fbow/hallo requires no skill, one could argue that they're all luck. To a certain degree, everything about PL involves luck, and like DivineMoustache said, forg/hallo doesn't grant range knowledge or stomp timing. Also, seeing as WF items involve procs as well, forg/hallo requires just as much skill.

Removing forg/hallo from PvP would only make it so WF items would be the OP stuff. Only, just the rich would be able to get it, making PvP truly unbalanced.

Hopefully ^ this was simple enough.

I hope you do know that lvl 15 isnt in general low lvl pvp. At lvl 10 people can just use candles and duckfoots which are so much more cheaper then Forg trash and halloween. This is what divine and most of you are talking about lvl 15 Lol. Lvl 15 is probably the worst lvl in my opinon, since most egos lie there and most bought there founders there. Lvl 15 is not low levels in general. IMO if forgs, halloween, and plat pack were nerfed, lvl 10, 20-26, 30, 35, and 40 would be 100% better.

[DivineMoustache]

Low level variety? Don't make me laugh imo. Everyone uses forgs, plat packs, and halloween crap. FFA was almost never happening in lower lvls not even before forgs. And pink 25 toys have 2 more damage 2 more hit then purp, Lol. You were obviously not here before in 26. Actually before forgs, SSC sets that used tank/nuke builds could easily beat toy, yes even lvl 25 toy. people would use the lvl 15 armors and diffrent wings shield and all. And we do need to nerf fbows, Lol. Don't blame the fbows not the culture? Lol. Once fbows came egos started rising as i said, and ffa games were never apparent even before forgs came out. And did you say nerfing these items would make it less balanced? Lol.

Fbows do grant skill to noobs, one can easily proc blind hit which is way overpowred down there and plat packs are plain op same with halloween poop.

Lmao, I was waiting for you to use the argument about how everyone only uses the same items such as forgs, plat packs, and halloween packs. What did people use back then? All mages used candle/toy/SSC. All bears used talon/xbow. All birds used toy/2h str weapon. The variety in terms of items hasn't changed. However, the different amount builds that are viable now due to the already nerfed forg bows/paws is a lot higher. You can have str pack paw mages (super tanky at 22 and 15). You can have paw rhinos. You can have paw birds. You can have Fbow birds, and so on and so forth.

You think variety in items is a problem in low levels, yet let me show you the double standards you set for low level in almost every post. Variety in weapons is an issue? That's weird, level 56 is limited to pretty much glyph weapons. Bears use maces. Mages use charming wand. Birds use Xbow. Some mages use mace too. You act as if being limited to fbows/paws/xbows is a bad thing while you sit in your proclaimed "favorite level" and fail to realize that you, too, are limited to pretty much 3 weapons.

Regarding FFA in low level, yes it doesn't happen much, that's why a culture change is required if those who want to FFA, want to come to low level. A nerf in fbows won't achieve anything but bring forth closed-minded people like you who think fbow and ego are huge enough problems in low level.

Regarding balance, I'm not sure what your idea of balance is, but yes removing fbows would decrease the current amount of balance that exists in low level today. Fbows/paws/str packs give multiple classes a chance to compete at every 10-25 level, not just the traditional domination of bear at 10-20 and mage at 22-27. (with the brief exception of birds prenerf bow)

Also, these days, forgotten bows only affect levels 10-25 PvP, out of which L15 is one of the largest PvP levels in the group. Obviously you haven't read many of my posts regarding hell scream bears either , which comes after level 15 (18). Something that seriously annoys me is that after you proceed to tell us not to exclusively make l15 arguments, you proceed to exclusively use L25 examples. You're being quite a hypocrite, given that you discount all of our opinions merely because we used examples from one of the only levels affected by fbows/paws and then you counter that with examples exclusively from only one other level.

At least give low level PvP an honest chance before you go around bashing the community. I'm doing the same to level 56, starting with bear though. You don't see me going around bashing modern L56, because I haven't actually put forth any time into it. I'd ask for you to do the same with low level.

[Assault]

my opinion is... wtf why were plat packs invented? 50 and 40 are ruined becuz of it. All these plat pack bears think their"pro". and pre nerf was so much better... tbh bear str fights are boring. bird and mages are the most fun cuz it takes skill not dodge and crits

[Prosecuted]

Fbows/hallow stuff just make pvp have no skill. People who barely know their ranges jut spam skills and win.

If it were that simple no one would lose

[Burstnuke]

Lmao, I was waiting for you to use the argument about how everyone only uses the same items such as forgs, plat packs, and halloween packs. What did people use back then? All mages used candle/toy/SSC. All bears used talon/xbow. All birds used toy/2h str weapon. The variety in terms of items hasn't changed. However, the different amount builds that are viable now due to the already nerfed forg bows/paws is a lot higher. You can have str pack paw mages (super tanky at 22 and 15). You can have paw rhinos. You can have paw birds. You can have Fbow birds, and so on and so forth.

You think variety in items is a problem in low levels, yet let me show you the double standards you set for low level in almost every post. Variety in weapons is an issue? That's weird, level 56 is limited to pretty much glyph weapons. Bears use maces. Mages use charming wand. Birds use Xbow. Some mages use mace too. You act as if being limited to fbows/paws/xbows is a bad thing while you sit in your proclaimed "favorite level" and fail to realize that you, too, are limited to pretty much 3 weapons.

Regarding FFA in low level, yes it doesn't happen much, that's why a culture change is required if those who want to FFA, want to come to low level. A nerf in fbows won't achieve anything but bring forth closed-minded people like you who think fbow and ego are huge enough problems in low level.

Regarding balance, I'm not sure what your idea of balance is, but yes removing fbows would decrease the current amount of balance that exists in low level today. Fbows/paws/str packs give multiple classes a chance to compete at every 10-25 level, not just the traditional domination of bear at 10-20 and mage at 22-27. (with the brief exception of birds prenerf bow)

Also, these days, forgotten bows only affect levels 10-25 PvP, out of which L15 is one of the largest PvP levels in the group. Obviously you haven't read many of my posts regarding hell scream bears either , which comes after level 15 (18). Something that seriously annoys me is that after you proceed to tell us not to exclusively make l15 arguments, you proceed to exclusively use L25 examples. You're being quite a hypocrite, given that you discount all of our opinions merely because we used examples from one of the only levels affected by fbows/paws and then you counter that with examples exclusively from only one other level.


At least give low level PvP an honest chance before you go around bashing the community. I'm doing the same to level 56, starting with bear though. You don't see me going around bashing modern L56, because I haven't actually put forth any time into it. I'd ask for you to do the same with low level.

Idc about 56, because my main lvl is 61 so bash it all you want IMO. The reason i loved lower levels and didn't do high pvls was variety and now there isn't any. All mages did not use toy, candle, and SSC LMFAO. You obviously know nothing about 26 since you seem to know so well don't you? And it wouldn't remove your so called *balance* we have today Lmfao. Forg has a lot of luck and doesn't take much skill at all. And 10-25 forgs only work? I was talking about halloween, forgs, and plat packs not just forgs hun. Nerfing forgs, halloween, and plat packs would help the levels i said in my last post. All your post are dedicated to lvl 15 and only lvl 15 and you even said it was low level pvp as a whole, Lmao.

And lvl 15 is big because it doesn't take much skill with all the forg trash and founders being bought lol. Just like you said my *favorite* level was 26 but i talked about lower lvl pvp as a whole while you only taked about lvl 15 which is one of the worst levels in my opinon lol. And i thought we were talking about lower lvls not higher lvls, sure it doesn't have variety because theres a thing called *SETS*. Low level pvp did not make more variety in builds lmfao, cannot believe you said that, all mages use tank builds and nuke and mixed builds no longer work at all. AGAIN, lvl 15 isn't the only lower lvl, OK?

Oh! And how much do lvl 10,20,30 winter stuff cost compared to Halloween? Candles? Mint cutters? Oh they cost millions obviously! The only level this would effect is lvl 15 which was always expensive even back then with all the expert and artisan armors. Oh and before you bring up lvl 25 toys, tinsel talons. Demon claw beats tinsel talon, and SSC tanks can beat Toys easily. So whats your counter against nerfing these items? Hm. Il also counter you saying bears only used talons/xbows as they used mint cutters. There was even a special lvl 25 str build that used that lvl 25 axe (forgot what it was called) and it granted a lot of damage and it was viable.

[DivineMoustache]

Idc about 56, because my main lvl is 61 so bash it all you want IMO. The reason i loved lower levels and didn't do high pvls was variety and now there isn't any. All mages did not use toy, candle, and SSC LMFAO. You obviously know nothing about 26 since you seem to know so well don't you? And it wouldn't remove your so called *balance* we have today Lmfao. Forg has a lot of luck and doesn't take much skill at all. And 10-25 forgs only work? I was talking about halloween, forgs, and plat packs not just forgs hun. Nerfing forgs, halloween, and plat packs would help the levels i said in my last post. All your post are dedicated to lvl 15 and only lvl 15 and you even said it was low level pvp as a whole, Lmao.

And lvl 15 is big because it doesn't take much skill with all the forg trash and founders being bought lol. Just like you said my *favorite* level was 26 but i talked about lower lvl pvp as a whole while you only taked about lvl 15 which is one of the worst levels in my opinon lol. And i thought we were talking about lower lvls not higher lvls, sure it doesn't have variety because theres a thing called *SETS*. Low level pvp did not make more variety in builds lmfao, cannot believe you said that, all mages use tank builds and nuke and mixed builds no longer work at all. AGAIN, lvl 15 isn't the only lower lvl, OK?

You obviously contribute nothing to a debate because you don't provide any facts whatsoever to back up your opinion.

All/most mages didn't use toy, candle and SSC as weapons? Explain to me then what they used.

I said Level 15 was the whole of low level? Explain to me where that was stated.

I didn't talk about low level PvP as a whole? My whole paragraph was about low level. I was just using the examples of L15 as actual evidence for my argument, while it appears you don't like to use this thing called evidence.

Also, you have previously stated 56-61 as your favorite levels. Don't be backtracking now.

Also, I accepted that L15 wasn't the only lower level. L10-25 are the only levels affected by fbows now though. You're grasping at straws here. Clear your mind before you engage in any logical debate.

Not once did I say it was low level PvP as a whole. If you think that I said that because i bolded "Low level PvP as a whole" feel free to read the original post, where a section is titled "low level pvp as whole" and I was simply citing that section and accrediting it's truth.

If you think *SETS* justify the fact that there's no weapon variety at high level, feel free to apply that same principle to fbow *SETS*, paw *SETS*. Why do high levels have no "variety" in weapons? Because the *SET* gives a stat advantage. Why do low levels have no "variety" in weapons? Because the fbows give a stat advantage.

[Burstnuke]

You obviously contribute nothing to a debate because you don't provide any facts whatsoever to back up your opinion. All/most mages didn't use toy, candle and SSC as weapons. Explain to me then what they used.

I didn't talk about low level PvP as a whole? My whole paragraph was about low level. I was just using the examples of L15 as actual evidence for my argument, while it appears you don't like to use this thing called evidence.

Also, you have previously stated 56-61 as your favorite levels. Don't be backtracking now.

Also, I accepted that L15 wasn't the only lower level. L10-25 are the only levels affected by fbows now though. You're grasping at straws here. Clear your mind before you engage in any logical debate.

Not once did I say it was low level PvP as a whole. If you think that I said that because i bolded "Low level PvP as a whole" feel free to read the original post, where a section is titled "low level pvp as whole" and I was simply citing that resection and accrediting it's truth.

26 was my favorite pvp level BEFORE pre-forg don't assume you know everything. Don't be backtracking now :).
And you didn't respond to me saying that it would SO MUCH cheaper to have those items nerfed, i wonder why. And mages used varities of artisan, socceress, the other i forgot it was called. There was so much variety from crit to regen... now theres trash hallo armors which add no variety. GG tho, unless you can counter the cheaper and more variety, good argument.

Oh and i didn't back up any of my information? Read my post again please, read all my responds to you saying bears using only talon blah blah. And you made no sense called forgs *SETS* as you know what im saying when i say there are sets up there lol. You also called me a hypocrite for using 26 examples yet again, i said before that nerfing plat packs, halloween, and forgs would effect the levels 10,20,25-26,30,35, and 40 a lot, while you base everything on lvl 15 and only lvl 15 lol.

[AppleNoob]

Low level variety? Don't make me laugh imo. Everyone uses forgs, plat packs, and halloween crap. FFA was almost never happening in lower lvls not even before forgs. And pink 25 toys have 2 more damage 2 more hit then purp, Lol. You were obviously not here before in 26. Actually before forgs, SSC sets that used tank/nuke builds could easily beat toy, yes even lvl 25 toy. people would use the lvl 15 armors and diffrent wings shield and all. And we do need to nerf fbows, Lol. Don't blame the fbows not the culture? Lol. Once fbows came egos started rising as i said, and ffa games were never apparent even before forgs came out. And did you say nerfing these items would make it less balanced? Lol.

Fbows do grant skill to noobs, one can easily proc blind hit which is way overpowred down there and plat packs are plain op same with halloween poop. Oh and low level as a whole is not only lvl 15, sir.

Explain to me what 27 has that makes it less dependent on fbows and paws in a detailed list so I can counter you with a list of items for 15 that are not WF or halloween.

[Burstnuke]

Explain to me what 27 has that makes it less dependent on fbows and paws in a detailed list so I can counter you with a list of items for 15 that are not WF or halloween.

What? Im talking about pre-forg i hate *27*'s variety right now, read again before questioning something, hun.

[DivineMoustache]

Good, now that you're using actual evidence for your posts, allow me dissect this junk.




Oh! And how much do lvl 10,20,30 winter stuff cost compared to Halloween? Candles? Mint cutters? Oh they cost millions obviously! The only level this would effect is lvl 15 which was always expensive even back then with all the expert and artisan armors.

I'll accept this as a valid point. The levels 10 and 20 do exist. However, the main issue I have with this is that the majority of low levelers affected by fbows are concentrated at 15, and 25. In this case, the majority should be concerned more than the minority, especially since there's not really any raging problems against fbows at level 10/20.


Oh and before you bring up lvl 25 toys, tinsel talons. Demon claw beats tinsel talon, and SSC tanks can beat Toys easily. So whats your counter against nerfing these items?

That argument has nothing to do with L25 toys. That's like saying forgotten bows aren't overpowered because an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff. Pretty sure even you can agree that argument is ridiculous.
Secondly, an SSC tank cannot beat a toy user when both users are under the same conditions. Hell, I barely played L26, and if you make an SSC tank and I fight you with a toy man wand, I'm pretty sure that you'd get beaten by a purple toy.


Hm. Il also counter you saying bears only used talons/xbows as they used mint cutters. There was even a special lvl 25 str build that used that lvl 25 axe (forgot what it was called) and it granted a lot of damage and it was viable.

Yeah, bears these days can also use mint cutters, str plat packs, fbows, paws, talons, xbows, forg staffs, etc. But there's no denying that good bear with a talon/xbow would have beaten a good bear with a mint cutter. Variety at the top of the chain is what's the issue.

[Burstnuke]

Good, now that you're using actual evidence for your posts, allow me dissect this junk.



I'll accept this as a valid point. The levels 10 and 20 do exist. However, the main issue I have with this is that the majority of low levelers affected by fbows are concentrated at 15, and 25. In this case, the majority should be concerned more than the minority, especially since there's not really any raging problems against fbows at level 10/20.



That argument has nothing to do with L25 toys. That's like saying forgotten bows aren't overpowered because an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff. Pretty sure even you can agree that argument is ridiculous.
Secondly, an SSC tank cannot beat a toy user when both users are under the same conditions. Hell, I barely played L26, and if you make an SSC tank and I fight you with a toy man wand, I'm pretty sure that you'd get beaten by a purple toy.



Yeah, bears these days can also use mint cutters, str plat packs, fbows, paws, talons, xbows, forg staffs, etc. But there's no denying that good bear with a talon/xbow would have beaten a good bear with a mint cutter. Variety at the top of the chain is what's the issue.

So allow me dissect this as well.

Lol, so now its what weapons can be used to beat other weapons now? Bears these days cannot use mint cutters, trust me ive tried it, they cannot use xbows since forg beats it right away, forg staffs lol, paws again no variety, fbows poop, str plat packs again no variety. Oh and that middle part i said in case you had anything to say. So you had no counter against mages variety i got that, gf, and none vs my answer to you about it being WAY cheaper then forgs, halloween poop. So the only thing you can do now is say that my middle point had nothing to do with this at all lol. And did you say you could beat me with lvl 25 purp wand while i use SSC Tank? Good luck man, oh and you have no evidence versus this as well, so you aren't backing up your information as well so i could call you a hypocrite as well, right? You said you barely played 26 so you don't have the information.

Welp, gg. Oh and about levels 30-40 if there were no halloween we would be sticking with the awesome original stuff which costs how much at lvl 30, 35?, 40??? Lol. So much more cheaper with them being all nerfed, just face it.

[DivineMoustache]

I respond too slowly to figure out wtf you mean in your next edits.


26 was my favorite pvp level BEFORE pre-forg don't assume you know everything. Don't be backtracking now :).

In it's current state, L56-61 is your favorite levels. Your argument has nothing to do with the context I used your "favorite" level in.



And you didn't respond to me saying that it would SO MUCH cheaper to have those items nerfed, i wonder why. And mages used varities of artisan, socceress, the other i forgot it was called. There was so much variety from crit to regen... now theres trash hallo armors which add no variety. GG tho, unless you can counter the cheaper and more variety, good argument.

Mages still use artisan/SSC/alch for regen. Also, It wouldn't be much cheaper at all. L15/25 would be bottlenecked. Also, I don't really understand wtf your last sentence means. Clarify please.



Oh and i didn't back up any of my information? Read my post again please, read all my responds to you saying bears using only talon blah blah. And you made no sense called forgs *SETS* as you know what im saying when i say there are sets up there lol. You also called me a hypocrite for using 26 examples yet again, i said before that nerfing plat packs, halloween, and forgs would effect the levels 10,20,25-26,30,35, and 40 a lot, while you base everything on lvl 15 and only lvl 15 lol.

Yeah, you edited your evidence after I posted. I responded to that already.

And no, calling a forgotten bow a set is pretty valid. Think about it. What exactly is the point of people using sets up there? Because each popularly used set gives a "set bonus" -- a stat advantage, if you will. Saying that the stat advantage of Fbows is limiting the variety of item choices at twinking is equivalent of me comparing the stat advantages of sets limiting the variety of item choices at...levels that have sets.




Lol, so now its what weapons can be used to beat other weapons now? Bears these days cannot use mint cutters, trust me ive tried it, they cannot use xbows since forg beats it right away, forg staffs lol, paws again no variety, fbows poop, str plat packs again no variety. Oh and that middle part i said in case you had anything to say. So you had no counter against mages variety i got that, gf, and none vs my answer to you about it being WAY cheaper then forgs, halloween poop. So the only thing you can do now is say that my middle point had nothing to do with this at all lol. And did you say you could beat me with lvl 25 purp wand while i use SSC Tank? Good luck man, oh and you have no evidence versus this as well, so you aren't backing up your information as well so i could call you a hypocrite as well, right?

Welp, gg. Oh and about levels 30-40 if there were no halloween we would be sticking with the awesome original stuff which costs how much at lvl 30, 35?, 40??? Lol. So much more cheaper with them being all nerfed, just face it.

Actually, mint cutters are pretty viable at level 30-40. But viability isn't variety. Anybody can USE items. But can they work against the best? That's variety.

And no, I was pretty much challenging you to a 27 SSC Tank vs Toy fight. I'm willing to search for the evidence regarding that argument.

As to the rest of that post, it's giving me a headache. I'd request that you format it better and clarify your thoughts. You're just typing your thoughts randomly without any organization and it's pretty hard to dissect what you mean from that.

And yeah, your middle post had nothing to do with anything at all, lol. Toy would become the most expensive , and strongest weapon at level 25 for the best class at level 25. Just because a demon claw can beat a tinsel talon holds as much relevance to that argument as the fact that an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff user.

You also seem to forget that those original items are so cheap because there is no longer a demand for them. A basic fact of economics is that supply and demand governs prices (unless in the case of regulation/price fixing.)



Anyway, I'm about to go to bed.

[iRandom]

Good, now that you're using actual evidence for your posts, allow me dissect this junk.



1. I'll accept this as a valid point. The levels 10 and 20 do exist. However, the main issue I have with this is that the majority of low levelers affected by fbows are concentrated at 15, and 25. In this case, the majority should be concerned more than the minority, especially since there's not really any raging problems against fbows at level 10/20.



2. That argument has nothing to do with L25 toys. That's like saying forgotten bows aren't overpowered because an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff. Pretty sure even you can agree that argument is ridiculous.
Secondly, an SSC tank cannot beat a toy user when both users are under the same conditions. Hell, I barely played L26, and if you make an SSC tank and I fight you with a toy man wand, I'm pretty sure that you'd get beaten by a purple toy.



3. Yeah, bears these days can also use mint cutters, str plat packs, fbows, paws, talons, xbows, forg staffs, etc. But there's no denying that good bear with a talon/xbow would have beaten a good bear with a mint cutter. Variety at the top of the chain is what's the issue.


Lol, so now its what weapons can be used to beat other weapons now? Bears these days cannot use mint cutters, trust me ive tried it, they cannot use xbows since forg beats it right away, forg staffs lol, paws again no variety, fbows poop, str plat packs again no variety. Oh and that middle part i said in case you had anything to say. So you had no counter against mages variety i got that, gf, and none vs my answer to you about it being WAY cheaper then forgs, halloween poop. So the only thing you can do now is say that my middle point had nothing to do with this at all lol. And did you say you could beat me with lvl 25 purp wand while i use SSC Tank? Good luck man, oh and you have no evidence versus this as well, so you aren't backing up your information as well so i could call you a hypocrite as well, right?

Welp, gg. Oh and about levels 30-40 if there were no halloween we would be sticking with the awesome original stuff which costs how much at lvl 30, 35?, 40??? Lol. So much more cheaper with them being all nerfed, just face it.

1. Agreed.

2. True.

3. [Duh]

[(*1*)] Bears these days can use Mint Cutters. Trust me I've done (just avoid other bears!).

[(*2*)] They can use x-bows. Read Kite & Tree.

[(*3*)] Legendary awesome original stuff (voodoo yay!) would be more expensive with hallo and forg being nerfed. It does not make any sense to nerf the Legendary Awesome Original Stuff (LAOS).

hi

[Burstnuke]

Stop editing your posts, I respond too slowly to figure out wtf you mean in your next edits.



In it's current state, L56-61 is your favorite levels. Your argument has nothing to do with the context I used your "favorite" level in.



Mages still use artisan/SSC/alch for regen. Also, It wouldn't be much cheaper at all. L15/25 would be bottlenecked. Also, I don't really understand wtf your last sentence means. Clarify please.



Yeah, you edited your evidence after I posted. I responded to that already.

And no, calling a forgotten bow a set is pretty valid. Think about it. What exactly is the point of people using sets up there? Because each popularly used set gives a "set bonus" -- a stat advantage, if you will. Saying that the stat advantage of Fbows is limiting the variety of item choices at twinking is equivalent of me comparing the stat advantages of sets limiting the variety of item choices at...levels that have sets.





Actually, mint cutters are pretty viable at level 30-40. But viability isn't variety. Anybody can USE items. But can they work against the best? That's variety.

And no, I was pretty much challenging you to a 27 SSC Tank vs Toy fight. I'm willing to search for the evidence regarding that argument.

As to the rest of that post, it's giving me a headache. I'd request that you format it better and clarify your thoughts. You're just typing your thoughts randomly without any organization and it's pretty hard to dissect what you mean from that.

And yeah, your middle post had nothing to do with anything at all, lol. Toy would become the most expensive , and strongest weapon at level 25 for the best class at level 25. Just because a demon claw can beat a tinsel talon holds as much relevance to that argument as the fact that an SSC tank can beat a forgotten staff user.

You also seem to forget that those original items are so cheap because there is no longer a demand for them. A basic fact of economics is that supply and demand governs prices (unless in the case of regulation/price fixing.)



Anyway, I'm about to go to bed.

Excatly, the original items are cheap because they are no longer demanded, and back before forg how much did a voodoo set cost? 300k? How much did copper set cost? 100k? How much did iceberg items back then cost? Your *supply and demand* response is invalid, gf. You just explained why it would be better to nerf the items lol.

Did you just say mint cutters are viable 30-40. Lol. Oh provide me the evidence of Toy beating SSC tank, because i knew a old mage named Silentdestiny that beat Ayepro's toy mage with SSC tank countless of times, gf, atleast i have evidence and you don't, hypocrite. By your logic of forgotten bows being sets i should be able to use Nuri wand with Charmin set right? Dumb.

Mages only use Alch for regen AFTER fights now a days, still no variety. And i didn't edit my evidence, i fixed things up, your just denying that i did, while you didnt even back up SSC tank vs Toy.

Your post gave me a bigger headache, pls go to sleep. Im done, i proved that it would be cheaper with forgs, halloween, and plat packs nerfed, im good!

[Burstnuke]

1. Agreed.

2. True.

3. [Duh]

[(*1*)] Bears these days can use Mint Cutters. Trust me I've done (just avoid other bears!).

[(*2*)] They can use x-bows. Read Kite & Tree.

[(*3*)] Legendary awesome original stuff (voodoo yay!) would be more expensive with hallo and forg being nerfed. It does not make any sense to nerf the Legendary Awesome Original Stuff (LAOS).

hi

LAOS (lol) would still be pretty much the same price, back then voodoo was like 300k, copper was like 100-150k, and Iceberg sets, Lol.

[DivineMoustache]

Nvm, I lied, this was the silliest thing I've ever seen


Excatly, the original items are cheap because they are no longer demanded, and back before forg how much did a voodoo set cost? 300k? How much did copper set cost? 100k? How much did iceberg items back then cost? Your *supply and demand* response is invalid, gf. You just explained why it would be better to nerf the items lol.

Back before the nerf, I think a voodoo robe alone cost 200k. Not to mention people had less gold back then. Inflation is a key factor here as well.



Did you just say mint cutters are viable 30-40. Lol.

Yeah, 35 bears use them occasionally to nuke, as do 30 bears and 40 foxes.



Oh provide me the evidence of Toy beating SSC tank, because i knew a old mage named Silentdestiny that beat Ayepro's toy mage with SSC tank countless of times, gf, atleast i have evidence and you don't, hypocrite.

I was implying that I was willing to fight you Toy vs SSC tank. Whether you accept this challenge is up to you.


By your logic of forgotten bows being sets i should be able to use Nuri wand with Charmin set right? Dumb.
Did you read anything? Charmin' set is better than Nuri's because it gives a stat advantage over any combination with a Nuri piece, just like how Fbow gives an advantage over any combination with a talon, etc. The fact that you called me dumb and also complain about ego problems shows me that you need to take a huge look in the mirror.



Mages only use Alch for regen AFTER fights now a days, still no variety. And i didn't edit my evidence, i fixed things up, your just denying that i did, while you didnt even back up SSC tank vs Toy.

This just shows how much you haven't involved yourself in low level. I find myself turning to regen midfights at l15/20/22/25 mage. If you pop an MS and get into a mana fight, chances are a good regen switch can swing the fight. L15 mage is primarily mana fights these days too. Switching to alchemist l5 is actually an essential part of PvP there.

I know you didn't edit your evidence, but you did edit it in after I posted. See: original post at 9:22 PM for me, I responded to your post which didn't contain the edit at 9:25 PM.



Your post gave me a bigger headache, pls go to sleep. Im done, i proved that it would be cheaper with forgs, halloween, and plat packs nerfed, im good!
See ego above.

[Burstnuke]

Nvm, I lied, this was the silliest thing I've ever seen



Back before the nerf, I think a voodoo robe alone cost 200k. Not to mention people had less gold back then. Inflation is a key factor here as well.



Yeah, 35 bears use them occasionally to nuke, as do 30 bears and 40 foxes.



I was implying that I was willing to fight you Toy vs SSC tank. Whether you accept this challenge is up to you.


Did you read anything? Charmin' set is better than Nuri's because it gives a stat advantage over any combination with a Nuri piece, just like how Fbow gives an advantage over any combination with a talon, etc. The fact that you called me dumb and also complain about ego problems shows me that you need to take a huge look in the mirror.



This just shows how much you haven't involved yourself in low level. I find myself turning to regen midfights at l15/20/22/25 mage. If you pop an MS and get into a mana fight, chances are a good regen switch can swing the fight. L15 mage is primarily mana fights these days too. Switching to alchemist l5 is actually an essential part of PvP there.

I know you didn't edit your evidence, but you did edit it in after I posted. See: original post at 9:22 PM for me, I responded to your post which didn't contain the edit at 9:25 PM.


See ego above.

You didn't say it was a challenge before, so idc if you say it is now, you can't admit it you didn't back any evidence because your just as a hypocrite yourself. 35 bears do not use mint cutter as banjo and iceberg swords are superior by so much.

Oh and if you want to call me *ego* i can look at all your other posts and your just a arrogant calling me a hypocrite when you are one yourself and saying let me dissect this **** so you're even a bigger hypocrite then i am, so goodbye. And voodoo robes were 150k back then not 300k. And inflation? People were buying 56 glyph sets for over 10mil bud, GG.

You assume everything and you said i didn't play lower lvls and i know nothing yet you barely played 26 and assumed you knew everything, yep. And popping out alch mid fights doesn't count IMO. Welp, this is really my last one gf tho!

[Befs]

And voodoo robes were 150k back then not 300k.

Not trying to get involved in this headache provoking argument but I'm pretty sure voodoo robes went for 200-220k. So nearly split between you two. Can you two please just stop arguing and let this thread serve it's purpose of a dev response.

[AppleNoob]

What? Im talking about pre-forg i hate *27*'s variety right now, read again before questioning something, hun.

Read and think before you post.

You say that all low level pvp is is forgotten bows, paws, and plat packs.

And you use level 25 as a example of variety with its SSC and winterfest toyman wands.

So I asked for your list of non-halloween or forgotten items as I would counter with something along the lines of "Artisan, Expert, Alchemist, stormstrike wand, l15-17 talons, and much more.

So your opinion that all pvp is is fbows paws and halloween crap is just that - an opinion (not to mention it's a wrong one too)

[DivineMoustache]

You didn't say it was a challenge before, so idc if you say it is now, you can't admit it you didn't back any evidence because your just as a hypocrite yourself.

Ahahaha:

And no, I was pretty much challenging you to a 27 SSC Tank vs Toy fight. I'm willing to search for the evidence regarding that argument.




35 bears do not use mint cutter as banjo and iceberg swords are superior by so much.
You fail to take into the account the lower Str requirements of mint cutter. It allows dex bears to be a kind of hybrid 2h nuke.



Oh and if you want to call me *ego* i can look at all your other posts and your just a arrogant calling me a hypocrite when you are one yourself and saying let me dissect this **** so you're even a bigger hypocrite then i am, so goodbye.

Someday if you ever look back on this one sentence, you're gonna grimace and say .. "wtf did I just write"




And voodoo robes were 150k back then not 300k.

Not only is it reading comprehension, you have trouble with numbers as well:
Back before the nerf, I think a voodoo robe alone cost 200k.




And inflation? People were buying 56 glyph sets for over 10mil bud, GG.
First of all, the drop rate got insanely heightened, since you are such a veteran I'm sure you can remember multiple glyph hoarders quitting because the value of their items had dropped so much.

Secondly, this also supports my supply and demand evidence. If you can remember correctly, 56 used to be much more active, and the combination of more players + incredibly low drop rate = super high glyph sets.



You assume everything and you said i didn't play lower lvls and i know nothing yet you barely played 26 and assumed you knew everything, yep. And popping out alch mid fights doesn't count IMO. Welp, this is really my last one gf tho!

And the evidence is more against you for not playing lower levels these days.

Also, I'd like to test my 27 ability by playing against such an old pro. Accept my challenge for Toy vs. SSC tank (well I got to find a toy first actually, I sold mine). If I lose, so be it.

Popping alchemists mid fights does count, especially when responding to an argument about how alchemist is only used for after fight regen.

[Prosecuted]

You didn't say it was a challenge before, so idc if you say it is now, you can't admit it you didn't back any evidence because your just as a hypocrite yourself. 35 bears do not use mint cutter as banjo and iceberg swords are superior by so much.

Oh and if you want to call me *ego* i can look at all your other posts and your just a arrogant calling me a hypocrite when you are one yourself and saying let me dissect this **** so you're even a bigger hypocrite then i am, so goodbye. And voodoo robes were 150k back then not 300k. And inflation? People were buying 56 glyph sets for over 10mil bud, GG.

You assume everything and you said i didn't play lower lvls and i know nothing yet you barely played 26 and assumed you knew everything, yep. And popping out alch mid fights doesn't count IMO. Welp, this is really my last one gf tho!

126301

[Burstnuke]

Read and think before you post.

You say that all low level pvp is is forgotten bows, paws, and plat packs.

And you use level 25 as a example of variety with its SSC and winterfest toyman wands.

So I asked for your list of non-halloween or forgotten items as I would counter with something along the lines of "Artisan, Expert, Alchemist, stormstrike wand, l15-17 talons, and much more.

So your opinion that all pvp is is fbows paws and halloween crap is just that - an opinion (not to mention it's a wrong one too)

A opinion cannot be wrong, its an opinon lol. And lvl 25 has more then SSC and winter fest. And stormstrike wand? What da. Oh and divine you said that after you said that you would beat me with toy vs SSC, so ahahah to you, sir!

Low requirements of mint cutter? Lol. Banjo has 75 str requirement so it poops on mint cutter as bears need dex with half str. And now your going to mention all of my typos which have NO information about the topic, Good job! The drop rate got raised AFTER forg bows were released or near it, im pretty sure it was 2012 when the new nuri dungeon was released, gg there as well...

And toy vs SSC tank wouldn't be the same due to nerf, so no, i won't do the match, besides i don't have a 26 mage lol. And popping in mid-fight is basicly the same thing as popping it on after-fight as you just switch back to halloween armor, dtill no variety.

Stop making me reply pls, besides, i thought you were going to sleep because of the headaches i gave you?

[ToastyLord]

Ahahahaha....this thread is going...hmmm...nowhere?
Also,

Dear burstnuke, you seem to like to use the words "poop" and "trash" a lot. I hope one day you will realize you don't have to fill up your sentences with those words. Also, mind the intense insults. Don't call others arrogant hypocrits as you're acting arrogant (making you a hypocrite)

(NOTE: Don't bother wasting finger energy, because I'm off this thread. It has clearly devolved to pointless bickering, useless arguement, and unhelpful complaining.)

[XghostzX]

126302

[ToastyLord]

Everyone uses forgs, plat packs, and halloween crap.

plain op same with halloween poop.

...

[ToastyLord]

Id rather have WF items common more then forg trash.

...

[ToastyLord]

And lvl 15 is big because it doesn't take much skill with all the forg trash

I would go on...

But here's just a few samples.

[Oculus]

Lol people still play pocket legends

[Jig]

Lol people still play pocket legends

I'm also very shocked they do.. addiction hits hard a fair bit :P

[Oculus]

Tell me about it


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jig]

What have you been playing lately Oc?

[iamtony]

Funny how people don't realize that burst is trolling... Like come on guys, it's burst! Lol

[Burstnuke]

I'm also very shocked they do.. addiction hits hard a fair bit :P

Heck, i don't even play that much, i go on for 30 minutes rushing everyone with molten...its fun. Otherwise then il be playing Vainglory.

[Burstnuke]

Funny how people don't realize that burst is trolling... Like come on guys, it's burst! Lol

126309

On a serious note i still proved that it would be cheaper with WF items, since candles cost so cheap and so do mint cutters. Duckfoots can be used to replace SBL's at most lvls. Inflation was not a thing back then, as people had loads of money to spend on overpriced Glyph that was super rare until the new nuri dungeon released (funhouse) which was near or after forgs released. Voodoo sets went for 300k, copper went for about 100-200k, and birds could use green ice sword or banjo. Would be so much more cheaper.

Forgs also bring its hit proc which is a bit overpowered since most don't have huge hit at lower lvls. Halloween and plat packs also bring less diversity in builds. Now all 26 mages use tank builds since Nuke build is destroyed. Same with 30 as well with all the plat packs. Lvls 10,20,30,35,40 actually got more expensive due to halloween, so why shouldn't we nerf plat packs, halloween, and forgs some more?

[iamtony]

126309

On a serious note i still proved that it would be cheaper with WF items, since candles cost so cheap and so do mint cutters. Duckfoots can be used to replace SBL's at most lvls. Inflation was not a thing back then, as people had loads of money to spend on overpriced Glyph that was super rare until the new nuri dungeon released (funhouse) which was near or after forgs released. Voodoo sets went for 300k, copper went for about 100-200k, and birds could use green ice sword or banjo. Would be so much more cheaper.

Forgs also bring its hit proc which is a bit overpowered since most don't have huge hit at lower lvls. Halloween and plat packs also bring less diversity in builds. Now all 26 mages use tank builds since Nuke build is destroyed. Same with 30 as well with all the plat packs. Lvls 10,20,30,35,40 actually got more expensive due to halloween, so why shouldn't we nerf plat packs, halloween, and forgs some more?

I completely agree. I don't use any hallow/forg/plat packs. Well I do use the hallow helm/expert verse Mages and snipers helm/artisan/crystalline wing verse bears. But seriously it's still fun down here even if not using any of that stuff. I only use fbow verse Fbow Bears cause you kinda have to. You should try it for about a week I actually think you'd like it.

[iamtony]

Also I have 116 hit with my verse bear setup ;).

[Rescind]

But the thing is l30s hardly use fbows and at lvl 30 birds have a better chance winning using iceberg longsword rather than a fbow

[DivineMoustache]

126309

On a serious note i still proved that it would be cheaper with WF items, since candles cost so cheap and so do mint cutters. Duckfoots can be used to replace SBL's at most lvls. Inflation was not a thing back then, as people had loads of money to spend on overpriced Glyph that was super rare until the new nuri dungeon released (funhouse) which was near or after forgs released. Voodoo sets went for 300k, copper went for about 100-200k, and birds could use green ice sword or banjo. Would be so much more cheaper.

Forgs also bring its hit proc which is a bit overpowered since most don't have huge hit at lower lvls. Halloween and plat packs also bring less diversity in builds. Now all 26 mages use tank builds since Nuke build is destroyed. Same with 30 as well with all the plat packs. Lvls 10,20,30,35,40 actually got more expensive due to halloween, so why shouldn't we nerf plat packs, halloween, and forgs some more?

Congrats, you successfully "trolled" us. Great way to pull out after you realize most of your points are ludicrous.

I'll concede some points about the prices. Duck foot can definitely replace SBL at levels 10/20. However, L15/25 (which make up 70% of low level, if not more) will still be ruled by the rich. Also, the main reason why I'm conceding this point is because the side effect of affordable gear, is allowing more noobs compete by buying them. You seem to agree that more inclusivity to noobs is a good thing. Oh wait, no you don't. You correlate the arrival of noobs coming to low level PvP due to affordability of fbows back then with the rise in the egos of low level PvP. (Which it doesn't, I welcome noobs who make an honest attempt into low level PvP, another reason why I think this is the only decent argument you have.)

The forgotten bow hit proc has a 10-15% hit rate, and as previously stated, swings around 1/5 of fights. Higher level PvP(anything past 45) has around 50-60% dodge, or 50-60% crit, and are a larger luck factor, yet the best PvPer there probably still manages to beat people worse than him. Bow hit proc is no longer an issue.

Halloween and plat packs also don't bring less diversity in builds. This is the kind of logic you're using, to think that the addition of items with MORE damage (also a devastating armor proc, for goodness sakes) and only slightly more armor (around 10 give or take) than the previous items would lead to the downfall of a nuke (aka DAMAGE) build.

No, the nerf of damage across the board led to less "diversity" in builds (but more variety in classes), not halloween/forg items. Nuke build at level 27 is actually not obsolete either. You can easily nuke as before, drain frost fire, but it can be countered with a good MS. Gone are the days where you can blow through an opponent's MS in the same combo. That was a skillful addition caused by the nerf. You also seem to forget that there was already a rise in tank builds even before the release of forgotten. Nuke builds were primarily utilized at the beginning of 27 PvP and at the prenerf forgotten era of 27 PvP. My source for that is somewhere in Zapoke's guide, where he notes that the trend of Tank mages is rendering his previous nuke build ineffective.

EDIT: Oops haha, I was trolling too. Sorry guys. Gotcha!!!! /s

[Justg]

You guys know how much we loooove trolling...