Are we over thinking the balancing of the skill system?

[Khicho]

Are we over thinking the balancing of the skill system? I think yes, and these are the reasons why. First, let me offer the obvious solution which in my opinion would solve the issue immediately. Simply add one additional skill slot. Why would this take care of the issue? First let’s look at the Rogue class as their class is without the most balanced in its current state.

Rogues are so dominate because they are the masters of single target damage and because they’re able to balance this out with two very effective defensive abilities (health packs and razors). They are designed to accomplish both an ultimate attack style coupled with enough defensive ability to make the extremely durable, and all with only 4 skills. With a 5th skill slot this would even make them that much more dynamic. They would be able to include even more attack or defensive abilities to their already over powered arsenal.

As for the Warrior and Mage classes this is not the same.

Warriors are forced to choose either a defensive build or an offensive build. It not possible for them to accomplish a balanced hybrid build with only 4 skills. With addition of a 5th skill slot it would then be an option for tanks to pick a pure damage build (berserker), pure tank, or a hybrid build. This would ultimately make them more useful in both pve and pvp.

Mages are faced with a different set of challenges. With only 4 skills they are forced to either go the route durability with shield and heal which ultimately hinders their ability to maximize their stuns and damage. Or they can choose to go pure damage which makes them very susceptible to attack (squishy). By adding a 5th skill slot for them they could then choose pure damage, hybrid, or even be a viable tank type build making them an alternative if a warrior is not available.

The bottom line is this isn't meant to make anyone class more powerful than the other. It would simply sift the scales in a way that each classes could legitimately be able to compete with the other in every way.

What are you thoughts?

[Wutzgood]

My Mage would love to run fire, ice, lightning, gale and clock. Right now I switch gale and clock for bosses or mobs.

[Candylicks]

First of all they need to address skills that are broken. They don't even KNOW they are broken which is one of the most mind boggling things ever. There was a dev in the chat box and I asked if they had any intentions of fixing serrated arrow in nox for rogues. The entire community knows that this upgrade does not give 15% dmg but it actually reduces your dmg by 15%. He didn't even know this skill was broken!!!! I mean, it's been 2 years and it's not worked correctly. The other classes also have skills like this that are flat out broken and do not work as intended.

Second, they should revamp passive skills. We all know about the single damage multiplier rule and if you use a dmg pet, and hey rogues and mages do so the dmg passive is totally wasteful. They should take all of those passives like DMG and SPEED which don't stack and remove them. Give us passives that will actually improve our classes.

Third, I don't think that adding a skill on the UI will change anything. Yes it could be cool for everyone to not have to remap your skills at bosses especially mages w/ swapping out clock and light. But really fix what's broke first StS. Fine tune your stuff at the very least if you have no intention of altering the skills.

[epicrrr]

First of all they need to address skills that are broken. They don't even KNOW they are broken which is one of the most mind boggling things ever. There was a dev in the chat box and I asked if they had any intentions of fixing serrated arrow in nox for rogues. The entire community knows that this upgrade does not give 15% dmg but it actually reduces your dmg by 15%. He didn't even know this skill was broken!!!! I mean, it's been 2 years and it's not worked correctly. The other classes also have skills like this that are flat out broken and do not work as intended.

Second, they should revamp passive skills. We all know about the single damage multiplier rule and if you use a dmg pet, and hey rogues and mages do so the dmg passive is totally wasteful. They should take all of those passives like DMG and SPEED which don't stack and remove them. Give us passives that will actually improve our classes.

Third, I don't think that adding a skill on the UI will change anything. Yes it could be cool for everyone to not have to remap your skills at bosses especially mages w/ swapping out clock and light. But really fix what's broke first StS. Fine tune your stuff at the very least if you have no intention of altering the skills.

Its not broken per se, but some factors are, maybe - and the way they synergize with gameplay and other skills.

IMO having 5 slot for skills is way too many buttons to click + pet AA that will be 6. Now i find juggling 3 skills + aa hard, 4 skills + AA is sometimes i panic and is dumbfounded as to where i am on my chain combo so i kinda look at my skills for 2-3 secs longer lol make that 6 over all skills to click and i might as well button bash :banana:

[Sorcerie]

First of all they need to address skills that are broken. They don't even KNOW they are broken which is one of the most mind boggling things ever. There was a dev in the chat box and I asked if they had any intentions of fixing serrated arrow in nox for rogues. The entire community knows that this upgrade does not give 15% dmg but it actually reduces your dmg by 15%. He didn't even know this skill was broken!!!! I mean, it's been 2 years and it's not worked correctly. The other classes also have skills like this that are flat out broken and do not work as intended.

Second, they should revamp passive skills. We all know about the single damage multiplier rule and if you use a dmg pet, and hey rogues and mages do so the dmg passive is totally wasteful. They should take all of those passives like DMG and SPEED which don't stack and remove them. Give us passives that will actually improve our classes.

Third, I don't think that adding a skill on the UI will change anything. Yes it could be cool for everyone to not have to remap your skills at bosses especially mages w/ swapping out clock and light. But really fix what's broke first StS. Fine tune your stuff at the very least if you have no intention of altering the skills.I have never played an RPG in my life where a passive skill doesn't stack, except AL.

Imo, all the passives should stack, that's why they're passives.

Crit stacks. Int, Dex, and Str stacks.

Armor, Damage, and Speed? No.

STS, Y u do dis?

[Candylicks]

Its not broken per se, but some factors are, maybe - and the way they synergize with gameplay and other skills.


No it's broken. Tested and broken. The serrated arrow reduces damage by 15-20% if you select that upgrade in Nox.

[Dex Scene]

No it's broken. Tested and broken. The serrated arrow reduces damage by 15-20% if you select that upgrade in Nox.
Also the razor shield.

[Khicho]

I think all of the feedback here is great but it seems to be coming from mostly rogues. 8 )

The point of balancing the skill system isn't to make Rogues even stronger. I completely agree that there are skill and passive abilities that frankly make no sense because they are really pointless. The dev's should definitely address those but even if they did the classes would still be out of whack. Why because the rogue class is the most complete in its ability to both deliver an amazing amount of damage and defend itself against incoming attacks.

This is simply not true for Warriors and Mages.

I agree that 5 skills might be over kill so why not offer a toggle ability? Similar to what is available in OaC?

[Noobx]

Some suggestions
Add 5th skill slot to war and mage ONLY. Rogues can still fly thru maps with 4 skills.
War suggestions-
1) extend vb buffs to whole pt(like in oac)
2) all aggro skills cause enemy to focus on tank for duration of skill
3) make jugg -50% instead -25%, in OaC you will not die as a tank, tanks shouldn't be getting 1hit by bosses.
Mage suggestions-
Boost armour to almost on par with rogues
+crit % and crit DMG buff type of skill, this way rogues will want mages in pt
All in all:fix the bugs first.. And make each class necessary. Don't try to bs intelligent minds like you did to the weak minds with the crap crates.

[epicrrr]

Some suggestions
Add 5th skill slot to war and mage ONLY. Rogues can still fly thru maps with 4 skills.


Thats gonna be a bad start for an update, they have to include all class for everyone to be happy else we rog will rampage across Arlor. :banana:

[Litheus]

warrior with 5 skills in pvp lv41 will he hard to beat lol

[acewasabi]

yes i think at first fix the existing skills that don't work like the 15% dmg upgrade for nox and the bug on razor shield, we all know about this why don't STS know about this?

[Noobx]

Thats gonna be a bad start for an update, they have to include all class for everyone to be happy else we rog will rampage across Arlor. :banana:

For a rogue aim nox pierce and traps is the ideal build. Add razor in there and a party of 4 rogues will be dodging 60-70% of the hits they get. Idk about you but to me dodging 6-7/10 hits is pretty close to being immortal.

[Khicho]

Again all great feedback but the point of this thread to discuss how to balance the skills so that all 3 classes are equal. Most of this feedback is to fix skills and passives that would really only benefit rogues. The end result of balancing skills should not be to make rogues even more powerful. Lets just keep in mind that rogues left alone simply dominate the other 2 classes.

Also, it should be said that another obvious fix would be to drastically nerf rogues. I personally don't think this is the solution. I would like to see is the other 2 classes reworked in one way or another so that they can compete at the same level as rogues.

Of course I am speaking to end game characters of equal equipment, and equal skill.

[Candylicks]

Lets just keep in mind that rogues left alone simply dominate the other 2 classes.



No.

[Khicho]

Yes.

I play a tank and rogue both with max gear and I consider my self to be an above average player on both. The simple truth is my rogue we beat equally geared and skilled tanks and mages 75% of the time.

The only players that would event think to argue that there isn't a clear imbalance would be rogues. This isn't a new topic.

[Kriticality]

Beat them in pve or Pvp? If a maxed geared, single target killing machine beats other two in a Pvp vs match, that probably should happen.

Tanks def need something in pve. Fix their existing skills and add more group buffs, enemy debuffs. Let them hold aggro better. I think Mages aoe attacks need to do a little more damage. Stun immunity and more consistent stuns in pve.

I've said before that I actually think in Pvp, at max gear level, the classes are very balanced. The issue in disparity starts below that and gets wider as the gear makes it way down to legendary with Mages suffering the most.

A fifth skill slot could be cool for pve but seems like it would destroy Pvp.

[Tatman]

Maxed endgame rogues might be overpowered. All other rogues in this game are not.

[ClumsyCactus]

Again all great feedback but the point of this thread to discuss how to balance the skills so that all 3 classes are equal. Most of this feedback is to fix skills and passives that would really only benefit rogues. The end result of balancing skills should not be to make rogues even more powerful.

Excuse me i removed a bit of the original quote, but if this means what i think it means i will count all your future opinions in this thread as invalid, because of how just weird this idea is...
So you are saying that rogues skills that are broken should not be fixed? You are suggesting that fixing our skills is a bad move? OFCOURSE they should fix our skills, leave them broken is like the DUMBEST thing to do considering all new rogues that use that upgrade without knowing, and cant respec for Ages bcuz lack of gold or plat.

So in conclusion:
Fix all broken skills and passives
Then just add a new upgrade for every skill with the new LEVELCAP, and GG you have your revamp.

[Jazzi]

Excuse me i removed a bit of the original quote, but if this means what i think it means i will count all your future opinions in this thread as invalid, because of how just weird this idea is...
So you are saying that rogues skills that are broken should not be fixed? You are suggesting that fixing our skills is a bad move? OFCOURSE they should fix our skills, leave them broken is like the DUMBEST thing to do considering all new rogues that use that upgrade without knowing, and cant respec for Ages bcuz lack of gold or plat.

So in conclusion:
Fix all broken skills and passives
Then just add a new upgrade for every skill with the new LEVELCAP, and GG you have your revamp.

I have to say that I had exactly the same problem with the bugged/not working skills on my rogue and mage when I was new and did not use the forum. I firstly upgraded the damage passive, then had the 15% damage "increase" on nox, etc. I learned about those one by one and used plat (no respec scrolls back then) to respec each time. There were times when I actually did not believe the random people who tried to help me, because I thought that they were trolling. THe reason for that being, that it was totally illogical for me the the % damage passive was not stacking, as I had played many other RPGs and passives did always stack. I also refused to remove the 15% damage "increase" form nox because I assumed that such a simple thing would be fixed with next patch. Strangely enough it did not.

Back to topic. Some people here imply that rogues are op at all levels of gear. This is definitely not true. This applies only to the highest lvls of gear (100 m+). However tanks do need tweaking, as mage's ability to freeze/stun the mobs does too. There have been many reasonable suggestions, some of which require minor changes only. I just hope that sts is quick at implementing those.

[Arachnophobik]

Maxed endgame rogues might be overpowered. All other rogues in this game are not.

And the thing is most people on maxed gear go max not just to show off looks but usually for pvp. Lets say 10% of rogues are maxed. Probably 80-90% of those rogues occupy pvp all the time and spam skills till they ruin the game for everyone. 85% of the time i enter ctf there has to be a ringed rogue running around farming kills. Having a more balanced battle system wud be best for everyone. I dont think five skills slots wud fix the issue, endgame warriors with vb,jugg and horn+ two offense skills might leave the mages as underdogs again.

[GoodSyntax]

If we focus on the primary roles of the three classes for elite PvE, then I think we can get a better sense of what SHOULD be happening.

Tanks:
Role: Aggro control, Debuffs
Obviously, our tanks need 4 REAL taunts. Taunts that control aggro 100%. High Damage Rogues/Sorcs should not be able to steal aggro so easily. Second, our tanks, as a matter of their own survival, should be able to hit mobs with strong debuffs to armor, hit and damage. The reason why tanks have such a difficult time in getting parties is because they really aren't adding much to the survivability of the party in the form of aggro control, and they aren't debuffing mobs. So, with their limited damage, runs take 30% longer than with a full DPS party.
Solution: The way to fix this is to add strong debuffs to their primary attack skills, and to extend support skills to the entire party. Next, fix the taunt upgrades. There is no reason why Windmill or HoR should taunt, then a couple of seconds later, mobs turn to the DPS classes due to the high DMG output. If these upgrades were added, then tanks wouldn't be a liability in strong parties, since they would ultimately mean faster runs and lower chance of death. I would also like to see an AoE style Whim-like pull ability added to Axe Throw. Unfortunately, in it's current construct, AT is widely viewed as a PvP skill, but the Feebling is useful in PvE. Another problem with AT which causes no one to use it is because it is single target skill. If AT could pull groups of mobs together, it would result in better, more controllable runs IMHO.


Sorcerers:
Role: Mob control, AoE Damage
Our Sorcs are generally squishy, which in and of itself is fine if you have tanks that are better equipped to handle aggro. Obviously, armor is the major concern for Sorcs, but really, the source of the concern is because mobs are quick to turn to the DPS classes, even after taunts.
Solution: I don't see a need to add more armor to the Sorc class. I would like to see a little bit more HP added to the class, but really, I think Sorcs need a few enhancements which increase their ability to control mobs and deal damage. Clock, for instance roots mobs, but they still attack at the same speed, so while it is mob control in a sense, you're not controlling mob damage output. My opinion is that Clock should slow attack speed by 50%, not just root or slow movement. Also, I don't think any mobs should be immune to the effects of Clock, Ice or Gale. This specifically is in regards to Scorns and Snakes in Tindirin. Beyond that, I would like to see the same armor reduction upgrades to Lightning that Aimed Shot has. I would also like to see Fireball reducing armor by 10-15% and knockdowns from Gale to last a little bit longer, or a stun applied after mobs get up from the knockdown. A Fireball, followed by Clock should yield more damage (with the armor debuff from FB), so this results in slightly faster runs, if the skills are rotated properly.



Rogues:
Role: Single target killers
Rogues kill one thing fast. That's their job. It is their duty to find the highest threat target and kill it, then move down the chain while the Tank and Sorc manage the other mobs. In their current state, Rogues are very well equipped to do their job effectively, which is why it seems as though they are the OP class.
Solution: It really isn't a matter of nerfing Rogues, but rather making the other classes better at their role. Rogue skills and mid-range armor makes them really, really good at single target kills, but (other than Traps) very bad at crowd control and (other than Nox) very bad at AoE damage. The role of the Rogue is performed exceedingly well right now, which in comparison to the other classes not having the same proficiency makes it seem that there is a gross imbalance.

[will0]

rogues max gear with "reinforce gem" they are way too OP, their AS combo needs to be tune down and of course with reinforce gem their armor + health is way high ..
i.e hallii (ex-mage convert) / etc.....

From Sorcerer skills point of view (which were raised many times by others in another mage buffing thread) ...
1.Lower CD for for charging FB and stun should last longer and more effectively. DOT damage should increase on FB.
2.Return mage freeze skill on ice ~ about 15% chance to freeze in PVP / slowing should be more significant.
3.Life giver should be granted stun/freeze immunity when cast to player (similar to Neckro buff)
4. Light skills should have more stun without needing to charge it and of course as above armor debuff like AS.
5.Mage shield invulnerability should last longer than 2 sec and give health regeneration back to caster.

[Remarked]

Bring Skill switching back ;)