My modified opinion of "the rush" (long overdue)

[Snakespeare]

To be honest, I was among the anti-rush or nerf-the-rush crowd back before the devs decided to implement spawned bosses. My opinions at that time were based on some different conditions in the game, conditions that have changed, and I find it necessary to state now, for the record, how my opinion has changed over time.

The first different condition was public portals. You see, before the nerf the only games you could join were hosted, and every single one of them was a rush. If you need to unlock the levels, you had no chance. People simply played one level over and over, rushing the bosses and saturating the market with pinks. If you were not a bear, you would get booted from these games.

I still feel it is uncool to rush in a public instance. I feel it is downright evil for a high level player to enter a public instance and run ahead of the low level players to kill the boss and leave.

But I feel strongly that, given that there are now public instances, a private instance is the maker's personal space (within the limits of the TOS) and any rushing, or skipping of mini-bosses, or other corridors, or to only clear mobs and leave the boss, is the right of the maker of that instance.

The second change is the re-spawning maps. If you are level 4 in FH IV, you can't possibly clear it because they re-spawn too fast. So, in a case like that I don't bother including the first room on the right. In fact, it makes more sense to lead a death train into the treasure room and kite them until they are all dead, then coax Meathead into there for another round of kiting. That's, in fact, the only way a level 4 can survive there.

So that's it. In a nutshell, I have come to feel that it's OK to rush, within the constraints of the nerf, when you are in your own instance or when you are in a re-spawning map. But it's still not sporting to rush in a public instance, and it's bad sportsmanship to rush ahead and kill the boss when all the noobs are trying to clear the mobs.

[Arterra]

You have not really played until you see clusterstorm run ahead and make a swill pits game into a cast skills and KEEP RUNNING game. We stop maybe 3 times in total. Someone said brb... He barely got to boss in time for a drop.

You can rush and kill at the same time, all is possible.

[RedRyder]

You have not really played until you see clusterstorm run ahead and make a swill pits game into a cast skills and KEEP RUNNING game. We stop maybe 3 times in total. Someone said brb... He barely got to boss in time for a drop.

You can rush and kill at the same time, all is possible.

after attaining a certain level of 1337'ness. i agree snake

[Lesrider]

Even though I swore I would never speak with you again, I just can't hold it in.


Are you f'ing KIDDING me????
After all the hell you gave everyone who liked rushing?
And when were there no public games? There were ALWAYS public games and most people who rushed did so in private games, as PUG rushing didn't usually go too well.

Good god.

[Snakespeare]

Welllll.... I don't want to argue. I just need to set the record straight.

[Kalielle]

*Jaw drops* *rubbing eyes* Am I dreaming?? Someone pinch me please. Is that Snakespeare really saying that a rush can sometimes be okay??

Ohhh, that I should live to see this day. Quick, pop the champagne - this is bigger than the upcoming PL anniversary! ;)


You have not really played until you see clusterstorm run ahead and make a swill pits game into a cast skills and KEEP RUNNING game.


Hmm, wonder who that might be. ^^

[noobmigo]

*Jaw drops* *rubbing eyes* Am I dreaming?? Someone pinch me please. Is that Snakespeare really saying that a rush can sometimes be okay??

Ohhh, that I should live to see this day. Quick, pop the champagne - this is bigger than the upcoming PL anniversary! ;)



Hmm, wonder who that might be. ^^

Clusterstorm?
Pshh, he merely leads the fastest games ever.

[Snakespeare]

*Jaw drops* *rubbing eyes* Am I dreaming?? Someone pinch me please. Is that Snakespeare really saying that a rush can sometimes be okay??

Ohhh, that I should live to see this day. Quick, pop the champagne - this is bigger than the upcoming PL anniversary! ;)


LOL! Times change, people change... not saying I was wrong, mind you. That was then, this is now. Pre-nerf it was a nightmare if you weren't a bear and were not a member of a clique. And I think the nerf is fair. Everybody has to clear most of the bad guys. Having won that much of a concession, it is long overdue for me to concede that the nerf is enough and get off my high horse.

[Arterra]

Hmm, wonder who that might be. ^^


oh

...

doubly impressed to know its a forumite

please, PLEASE let me in all your games xD

and as to snake, yea a lot of games had a strict no mage rule, and that was quite the downer. those all bear parties are now gone with the rush (and some updates like stats and item)

[Lesrider]

Clusterstorm?
Pshh, he merely leads the fastest games ever.

She ;)




.

[Arterra]

She ;)




.

the female PL community strikes again!

[StompArtist]

the female PL community strikes again!

Do we have to wash the dishes again?

(Bad sexist joke I know...)

[noneo]

I'm a new player and I hear about the nerf all the time. What exactly happened? I have heard that it has to do with Shadow caves becoming way harder, and I have heard it has to do with the Alien Oasis Update. I am just very lost with all of this discussion.

Please inform me :)

[Pimpslide]

ZOMG! Clusterstorm is Kalielle?!
In the words of TehNoobShow: *Bow to the great one*

[Chant]

You have not really played until you see clusterstorm run ahead and make a swill pits game into a cast skills and KEEP RUNNING game.

You need to see Kalielle/Clusterstorm play her favorite map (Catacombs). She rocks. Join her game, hold your breath, and stop at the boss.

[Snakespeare]

I'm a new player and I hear about the nerf all the time. What exactly happened? I have heard that it has to do with Shadow caves becoming way harder, and I have heard it has to do with the Alien Oasis Update. I am just very lost with all of this discussion.

Please inform me :)

There were several different nerfs over time. I am referring to the one in which they modified every basic map from Swamp upward so that the boss doesn't spawn until you clear enough mobs. This was in response to the anti-rush campaign for which I will gladly take all the heat even though it was not my idea and I was only one of many players who wanted it. I have come to the position where I accept that this solution is the best solution, so that is why I have adjusted my official stance.

The other nerfs were:

1.) AO1 had the drop rate of pinks squeezed down so far that it hardly ever happens in that campaign any more. This was the first reaction to the rush causing a surfeit of pinks. The map that was used for rushing was AO1:V, and that was removed from the game until it changed.

2.) Swamps (before Lake Louis and the Scalefield/McCroc addition) were nerfed to make the crocs easier to beat. This was because people were skipping Swamps to go directly to AO1 and AO2 since the mobs in AO2:III were very easy to grind XP on (the Mynas Generation).

3.) AO2:III was nerfed by adding Lesser D'Jinn mini-bosses at many intersections. This was done after much pleading by older players to stop the Mynas gen from power leveling there.

4.) The nerf I refer to: bosses didn't spawn until after a certain number of mobs were killed. This was in response to much pleading by many people (I was only one of them). I am still the fall guy for it, somehow, but I don't mind. If I were the only one who mattered, it's a compliment, even though it's not true.

5.) The one you refer to, Shadow Caves: On the first day (and a half) that Shadow Caves came out, the pink drop rate was insane. I do not know this for a fact since the only group playing it was full, but they said that pinks were dropping at 100%. Some players went nuts accusing the devs of sabotaging the economy because these players had Void, Rift, or Cosmos gear in the CS that was now dropping in value. They called Cinco a "ruiner" and that has become a running joke. Turns out, it was an error in the code. But when they fixed it, they made it so that nobody will ever play Caves again. Cinco has hinted at a level 50 Vyxnaar helm in there, appealing to the greed, but people won't do it even though it would fetch a gazillion smackers.

There may have been other nerfs, but I only started in June, so I wouldn't know about them. They did kinda nerf FH:I-IV when they made them open-world content, but that's never been called a nerf, that I know of.

[StompArtist]

The one you refer to, Shadow Caves: On the first day (and a half) that Shadow Caves came out, the pink drop rate was insane. I do not know this for a fact since the only group playing it was full, but they said that pinks were dropping at 100%. Some players went nuts accusing the devs of sabotaging the economy because these players had Void, Rift, or Cosmos gear in the CS that was now dropping in value. They called Cinco a "ruiner" and that has become a running joke. Turns out, it was an error in the code. But when they fixed it, they made it so that nobody will ever play Caves again. Cinco has hinted at a level 50 Vyxnaar helm in there, appealing to the greed, but people won't do it even though it would fetch a gazillion smackers.

This state of affairs with the shadow caves is the only sad nerf to ever occur. :(

[Survivorfan]

If you were not a bear, you would get booted from these games.
My first character was actually Bergamonster. Because of this, I made Survivorfan and he is my main character

[Arterra]

the caves where a complete chaosfest lol. at first, the most expensive item where the glowsticks i think, at around 60k... bagged mine for 5k, i dont know how lol. then, 2 hours after nerf, i go on to see the rpices have gone up and up. if i remember right, that is when the purists stepped in and started their claim that rift/void/butnotcosmos was still better overall in any argument and prices have been random to me ever since. maybe cooled down recently... after the set update, idk.

[MoarPewPew]

Well here is what I have to say. Balefort sewers is a interesting campaign. I think that it is a very restricted campaign in terms on how you want to run each level. (the routes you pull mobs)

Also the drop rate of the balefort sewers is so low that it feels like you end up puting in more effort for getting pinks than there really worth.

Since the balefort sewers takes longer to get to a boss, and it has lower drop rates I can see why people may want "a bit of rushing back."

The campaign does not feel very smooth, so this causes an in balance.

That my input.

[Arterra]

Well here is what I have to say. Balefort sewers is a interesting campaign. I think that it is a very restricted campaign in terms on how you want to run each level. (the routes you pull mobs)


bring back the open plains of ao1 and the swamps?

[noneo]

There were several different nerfs over time. I am referring to the one in which they modified every basic map from Swamp upward so that the boss doesn't spawn until you clear enough mobs. This was in response to the anti-rush campaign for which I will gladly take all the heat even though it was not my idea and I was only one of many players who wanted it. I have come to the position where I accept that this solution is the best solution, so that is why I have adjusted my official stance.

The other nerfs were:

1.) AO1 had the drop rate of pinks squeezed down so far that it hardly ever happens in that campaign any more. This was the first reaction to the rush causing a surfeit of pinks. The map that was used for rushing was AO1:V, and that was removed from the game until it changed.

2.) Swamps (before Lake Louis and the Scalefield/McCroc addition) were nerfed to make the crocs easier to beat. This was because people were skipping Swamps to go directly to AO1 and AO2 since the mobs in AO2:III were very easy to grind XP on (the Mynas Generation).

3.) AO2:III was nerfed by adding Lesser D'Jinn mini-bosses at many intersections. This was done after much pleading by older players to stop the Mynas gen from power leveling there.

4.) The nerf I refer to: bosses didn't spawn until after a certain number of mobs were killed. This was in response to much pleading by many people (I was only one of them). I am still the fall guy for it, somehow, but I don't mind. If I were the only one who mattered, it's a compliment, even though it's not true.

5.) The one you refer to, Shadow Caves: On the first day (and a half) that Shadow Caves came out, the pink drop rate was insane. I do not know this for a fact since the only group playing it was full, but they said that pinks were dropping at 100%. Some players went nuts accusing the devs of sabotaging the economy because these players had Void, Rift, or Cosmos gear in the CS that was now dropping in value. They called Cinco a "ruiner" and that has become a running joke. Turns out, it was an error in the code. But when they fixed it, they made it so that nobody will ever play Caves again. Cinco has hinted at a level 50 Vyxnaar helm in there, appealing to the greed, but people won't do it even though it would fetch a gazillion smackers.

There may have been other nerfs, but I only started in June, so I wouldn't know about them. They did kinda nerf FH:I-IV when they made them open-world content, but that's never been called a nerf, that I know of.

Wow, that is a lot of nerfing.

So you were against people rushing to the boss? So the devs changed the game so that you had to kill a certain amount of mobs before you spawn boss? Similar to how the sewers are correct?

Were you against it because of the kicking everyone besides bear situation?

[Snakespeare]

Well here is what I have to say. Balefort sewers is a interesting campaign. I think that it is a very restricted campaign in terms on how you want to run each level. (the routes you pull mobs)

Also the drop rate of the balefort sewers is so low that it feels like you end up puting in more effort for getting pinks than there really worth.

Since the balefort sewers takes longer to get to a boss, and it has lower drop rates I can see why people may want "a bit of rushing back."

The campaign does not feel very smooth, so this causes an in balance.

That my input.

It's funny how there is no "boss crawl" for BS. I wonder why not. I sure hope it isn't all this politicking around drop rates and rushing that made them decide not to give us a boss crawl.

Cinco did say he wasn't in favor of the crawl for Swamps, and the crawl for AO1 was made useless by the drop rate nerf, and the crawl for AO2 is the main reason why people got pink-happy, and the crawl for AO3 is where the worst rushing was happening. So, maybe that really is why we don't have a boss crawl in BS.

JustG said yesterday that 1.7.1 will have new content. I am curious what they will add. But it would be too much to hope for a boss crawl for BS.

I have to say one thing about BS that is good, and that is, everyone can play. Nobody gets excluded any more because they aren't a bear or they don't have top gear.

I'm afraid the trolls have soured the devs. I am worried that this is why Cinco doesn't come to chat any more.

[Lesrider]

So when YOU complain about something (like rushing -- and before even putting proper thought into it, apparently), it's considered constructive feedback.

But when others complain about 100% drop rate, we're trolls?

Ugh I really wish you would have left this topic alone, as I really didn't want to get pulled back into an argument with you.

[Physiologic]

I'm missing the point I think but which high-leveled campaign map really allows for "rushing" to the boss, besides AOIII: Victory Lap?

[Lesrider]

I'm missing the point I think but which high-leveled campaign map really allows for "rushing" to the boss, besides AOIII: Victory Lap?

Phys, you may have joined after they nerfed the rush?
For instance, you didn't always have to kill all but 14 aliens in Captive Audience to get to the boss. You could rush through them to get to Tpaxx. It was more dangerous, but faster and took more skill not to die all over the place. The enemies were tougher then, as well.

[Kalielle]

I'm missing the point I think but which high-leveled campaign map really allows for "rushing" to the boss, besides AOIII: Victory Lap?

All AO2 maps used to be rushed in 5-bear or 4 bear 1 paladin teams back when 45 was the cap. Maps 4, 5 and Plasma Pyramid were particularly popular. Imagine skipping all djins in Chariots and trailing them behind you all the way to the boss and having 6 djins pounding on you while you were killing boss. And this was before the rebalance so we all had half the health we have now (although it's true that level 45 gear also had dodge comparable to current 55 pinks). And no, we didn't use any elixirs. :)

Regarding the boss level, I'm kind of glad there isn't one in BS. Each BS map is interesting in its own way and this way people do them all. What's the point of having several maps that nobody plays except once to unlock the final map, like it used to be with AO3 (and the only reason people also played map 3 there was because of what was probably an error in the VL Tpaxx loot table). At least in AO2 Plasma Pyramid didn't give rares, so people played/rushed all maps.

[Zeus]

Lesrider, Snake didn't exactly flame you in your previous posts. Keep it civil please.

[Physiologic]

Oh I got that part - but I'm asking Snake what map(s) is this thread in reference to, because it seems like he is saying it is now acceptable to "rush" a map when no maps in the Shadow Caves/Balefort Sewers are rushable.

Hmm...it's kinda like Snake was an opposer of Wendy's bacon burger by saying "it's very unhealthy!", but then he changed his mind and said "Wendy's bacon burger is very delicious and awesome!" but only AFTER Wendy's discontinued the item. Therefore I think I missed the entire point of this thread.

[Snakespeare]

Many of us, myself included, said that a 100% pink drop rate didn't seem right. Nobody argued in favor of it. Nobody was called a troll simply for pointing it out. They were called trolls because they went ballistic and were very harsh to everyone, especially the devs. They were called trolls by the devs, and the thread got locked. I don't know why you think I am talking about you.

Our argument is over something else completely, when I asked you why you kept coming here when you had quit the game a month before and all you wanted to do was take the players away from this game to play a different one. And I was uncool in my handling of that, so I am sorry. But that was long ago. Enough. If you don't forgive me, it doesn't change the fact that I'm sorry.

[Lesrider]

Oh I got that part - but I'm asking Snake what map(s) is this thread in reference to, because it seems like he is saying it is now acceptable to "rush" a map when no maps in the Shadow Caves/Balefort Sewers are rushable.

Hmm...it's kinda like Snake was an opposer of Wendy's bacon burger by saying "it's very unhealthy!", but then he changed his mind and said "Wendy's bacon burger is very delicious and awesome!" but only AFTER Wendy's discontinued the item. Therefore I think missed the entire point of this thread.

Bingo!

And Range, Snake's called me a troll before for my opinion on the whole caves matter, and since he's talking about the same thing here, and blaming it all on said "trolls," I just put two and two together.

[Zeus]

Bingo!

And Range, Snake's called me a troll before for my opinion on the whole caves matter, and since he's talking about the same thing here, and blaming it all on said "trolls," I just put two and two together.

Ok, I'm staying out of this. You two are adults anyway. I'm sure you can handle it much more maturely then I can.

[Snakespeare]

I used to have a hardliner stance that all should be cleared completely, and that it was cheating to rush. So now when we skip Oil Slick, for instance, I'm OK with it. It doesn't make sense to me, but I accept it.

But I wasn't 100% opposed before, either. I used to say it's impolite not to lock if you are going to rush. And I have always said it is unsportsmanlike to rush in a public instance.

So all I'm saying is, the Adrian Monk in me just has to put up with skipping Oil Slick, for instance. I have come to accept the current solution as the most fair for everyone.

[Snakespeare]

I only called Les a troll once, and that was a long time ago, and I apologized. I didn't even know he was a she at the time, or I would have used the kid gloves. I'm sorry about that.

[Lesrider]

Many of us, myself included, said that a 100% pink drop rate didn't seem right. Nobody argued in favor of it. Nobody was called a troll simply for pointing it out. They were called trolls because they went ballistic and were very harsh to everyone, especially the devs. They were called trolls by the devs, and the thread got locked. I don't know why you think I am talking about you.

Our argument is over something else completely, when I asked you why you kept coming here when you had quit the game a month before and all you wanted to do was take the players away from this game to play a different one. And I was uncool in my handling of that, so I am sorry. But that was long ago. Enough. If you don't forgive me, it doesn't change the fact that I'm sorry.

For the record, I never quit.

And you also accused me of being greedy, wanting to rip people off with high prices, that I wanted to gouge prices. All because I didn't agree with the 100% drop rates. So don't pretend now that you were against the 100%.

[Physiologic]

I used to have a hardliner stance that all should be cleared completely, and that it was cheating to rush. So now when we skip Oil Slick, for instance, I'm OK with it. It doesn't make sense to me, but I accept it.

But I wasn't 100% opposed before, either. I used to say it's impolite not to lock if you are going to rush. And I have always said it is unsportsmanlike to rush in a public instance.

So all I'm saying is, the Adrian Monk in me just has to put up with skipping Oil Slick, for instance. I have come to accept the current solution as the most fair for everyone.

Ah...I see now, skipping the "miniboss room" in BS maps because those minibosses no longer give any useful drops. I'm guessing skipping the toxic archers as well in Roach Motel and the totems that spawn more goblins in Swill Pitz? I think the discrepancy is really the degree of the rush now, because I don't really consider skipping those enemies as "rushing" a map as opposed to rushing huge amounts of mobs in Alien Oasis pre-nerf.

[Lesrider]

I used to have a hardliner stance that all should be cleared completely, and that it was cheating to rush. So now when we skip Oil Slick, for instance, I'm OK with it. It doesn't make sense to me, but I accept it.

But I wasn't 100% opposed before, either. I used to say it's impolite not to lock if you are going to rush. And I have always said it is unsportsmanlike to rush in a public instance.

So all I'm saying is, the Adrian Monk in me just has to put up with skipping Oil Slick, for instance. I have come to accept the current solution as the most fair for everyone.

We had way too many arguments where I pointed out that people should be allowed to rush in their own private games, since people can create non-rushing games if you so please. You still insisted rushing was unfair in any form. You also claimed it was unfair to the devs to rush through the game they created instead of savoring it.

It's all nice and dandy you changed your mind now, after the fact. Just don't pretend that anything changed other than your own mind. Bc the game itself did not change enough to affect an opinion on the matter.

[Snakespeare]

Thanks for keeping me as honest as possible and prodding me to be more specific.

I do believe the game did change significantly since I held those opinions. I accept the nerf that happened. It wasn't 100%, as you can see from people still skipping things. So now I will rush where I can, and skip bosses. I think PL is really a fairer game, now. When birds (note that my main is a bird) were not wanted because of the rush, I hated it. If you had a bird, you might know what that feels like.

Les, do you want me to publicly apologize for every word I wrote that fateful morning? I don't remember them all. But I believe you. In fact, I did call you greedy. I also took it back about 20 minutes later. Sorry.*

I made this thread in the hope of mending fences. People change their minds. I have changed mine. I hope everything can be cool now.

* I more than regret that, as it is not for me to judge others on these matters. I don't have ESP. I can't possibly know such motives. So, I was in the wrong.

[Lesrider]

That's the thing, though. I'm not really sure what you were trying to achieve with this thread. Saying you're ok with it now doesn't mean anything. All it does is get you attention.

To work with Phys's analogy -- you can't protest a Wendy's and then say "oops I really liked that place" after the wrecking ball hits it and it's turned into a Jamba Juice (that's for you, Pharcyde). What did you intend to achieve with this thread? You think now that you approve of the rush, months after you were part of the movement to get rid of it, now the devs will bring it back bc you say it's ok?

And no, I don't need you to apologize for every word you said, because it won't make any difference to me. Try not saying things like that in the first place, like you preach to everyone else.

[Physiologic]

Hmm..I don't think he wants the devs to bring back "rushable" maps, I think he just wants to state that his stance in the past was too extreme, admits it was a mistake, and apologizes for being a hard-*ss about it in the first place, especially to you Les. No one's perfect and he was man enough to admit it, and a lot of men don't like to admit mistakes, or admit that they are lost when they are driving. At least, before GPS devices for cars were created.

[Moogerfooger]

You two should just hug it out :D

(ducking for cover)

[Lesrider]

Hmm..I don't think he wants the devs to bring back "rushable" maps, I think he just wants to state that his stance in the past was too extreme, admits it was a mistake, and apologizes for being a hard-*ss about it in the first place, especially to you Les. No one's perfect and he was man enough to admit it, and a lot of men don't like to admit mistakes, or admit that they are lost when they are driving. At least, before GPS devices for cars were created.

That's my point, though. This isn't going to bring the rush back. His apology or change of opinion doesn't make anything better. What might have made a difference was if he had actually learned a bit more about the rush before dam*ing it to hell. We argued about this so much my head was was spinning. He fought a holy war against the rush, and now says "oops it's not so bad after all."

The reason this is bothering me so much is because ao3 was the campaign that really sucked me into PL to the point I'd be up all night playing. It was the first campaign I bothered to actually make friends, discovered the forums, really learned how to play the game. The rushing actually forced me to learn how to play my characters well and Ricci and I were farming hours on end. We really became pros at it. Then a bunch of people complained about the rush. They didn't like it, so everyone had to suffer. Snake was one of the loudest speakers against it.

Anyway, for whatever reason, the devs finally nerfed the rush (and ao3 along with it). I gradually lost interest in the game, as did several of my farming buddies. I've not been able to get all that excited about the game since (and yes, that's part of the reason I ended up playing other games and praising them). So to hear now from the biggest naysayer, "oh sorry now I'm ok with the rush," just falls flat. It doesn't hold any water in my eyes.

[Physiologic]

I can see where killing the rush and introducing a grind really pushes people away from the game, and the devs are probably aware of that as well and it was probably talked over for countless hours on their end. Sorry to hear ya lose interest because of that reason :( I know it's a bitter feeling to have.

[Snakespeare]

So, should i get on my high horse again, LOL! and insist on clearing all maps? I admit that my OCD-like inclinations would like that. But I can't. I think it's so much better now. It's fair for everyone this way.

[Lesrider]

So, should i get on my high horse again, LOL! and insist on clearing all maps? I admit that my OCD-like inclinations would like that. But I can't. I think it's so much better now. It's fair for everyone this way.

Snake, no one asked your opinion on the matter months after the rush is gone, and likely never coming back. You decided to post a thread about it for who-knows-what reason. The more you write, the more I think you just like to hear (see) yourself talk.
Again, what were you trying to achieve with this? (I don't need an answer, it's a hypothetical question. I don't really expect you to have one since you haven't given one after all this. I'm tired of hearing you repeat yourself.)

Now it sounds like you still can't make up your mind because of your "OCD-like inclination." So how about not giving such strong opinions on something you can't even make up your own mind about? To give another example, you admittedly didn't even step into the Shadow Caves before taking a strong stand on whether or not they should stay the way they were. And making assumptions about people who HAD spent time in there and had valid feedback.

Those of us who were arguing so strongly and passionately FOR the rush were doing so because we thoroughly enjoyed playing the game that way. We weren't taking anything away from others by arguing for it. But you, who obviously didn't even take the time to understand it, fought back just as hard. And for what, to change your mind later? Well I didn't change my mind -- I still miss the old ao3.

LEARN MORE ABOUT SOMETHING BEFORE TAKING IT ON AS YOUR HOLY MISSION!!!!

[Snakespeare]

So, anyway... I argued this topic with many, many people here, not just Les, and I consider it my responsibily to the truth to say that I am now OK with things the way we play, even though in my opinion we still rush too much. I do want to be included in games, even though I am historically on the books for saying that rushing is cheating. I hope my motive is clear. I don't want to be excluded. It's as simple as that.

[FluffNStuff]

So finally read the entire thread, and there seems to be some miss-communication going on here. There are three types of games, and lets look at AO3.3 Captive Audience as an example:
1) Full Clear - This equates to killing every mob on the board, including the jailers and the aliens off to the left of when you come in. (Except Prisoners)
2) Partial Clear - This is killing the mobs in your way, and those needed to spawn the boss. This is typically done by skipping the mobs to the left and the Jailers room.
3) True Rush - This involves ignoring ALL mobs and heading straight to T'Pax, killing him then remaking, and T'Pax and perhaps one or two Yellow aliens that got caught in the cross fire are the only ones killed.

Now correct me if I am wrong here Snakes, but it does not sound like you are saying that you agree with the True Rush, but that you have come to accept the partial clear over the full clear. You are not saying that you think it should go BACK to the way it was, but you accept the way it CURRENTLY is and that it should not become MORE restrictive. Is this correct?

[drewcapu]

You two should just hug it out :D

(ducking for cover)

I've tried that. I just end up walking right through people.

[Moogerfooger]

I've tried that. I just end up walking right through people.

Apparently the devs are anti-hug. This must change for the good of PL humanity :p

[Nightarcher]

The main thing that I will address is how Snake mentioned things have changed.

The devs nerfed "the rush" because it was all that people ever did, and it was the best thing to do. Note, I loved rushing, and tanking in the "AO2 Bear Golden Age."

Now, there are so many birds and mages who are inexperienced, as well as bears who can't tank, that it isn't the easiest thing to do for most people. However, I think the reason rushing could be re-implemented now is because it's not the best option for most people.

Most people are still in the process of leveling, either to 55 or 56. There's a very small percentage of the total 51-56 population that has the experience and setup to be able to tank a whole level, with those demonic firsthand as well. The thing is, you can't rush with many birds, and without many the boss takes a while. So in the sewers, a "true rush" would be a truly heroic and elite task.

I'm mainly an archer and I'm fine with the "kill-until-boss-spawns" games because it's still super fast with a damage elixir. But now that rushes would be super hard, I would like to see them put back into place. It would keep people interested and bring more ways to play back. :)

[Slush]

no point talking about the rush.it's long gone.

[Nightarcher]

no point talking about the rush.it's long gone.

We know... sigh. :(

He was pointing out that the way the game has shifted could allow for a shift in opinion and practicality as well.

[Ellyidol]

I can't wait to read this thread when I get home. Anythin started by Snake is always interesting.

I've only read through a bit on phone, and what I can say is,

Clusterstorm makes my bear look like a leech :)

[Necrobane]

I like the current way its been done. You can still rush recipes and atm the game is in no-way slow paced. The mobs have the perfect amount of hp and boss's are fun. If the rush was brought back, too many people would be attempting it and that would ruin games, as the game in it's current state is too hard to rush unless your all str classs. Thus bringing back that era Of booting everything but a pally and bears. Not cool IMO.

[Slush]

I like the current way its been done. You can still rush recipes and atm the game is in no-way slow paced. The mobs have the perfect amount of hp and boss's are fun. If the rush was brought back, too many people would be attempting it and that would ruin games, as the game in it's current state is too hard to rush unless your all str classs. Thus bringing back that era Of booting everything but a pally and bears. Not cool IMO.

you cant rush minibosses for recipes, they patched it so minibosses dont drop them anymore

[Lesrider]

So finally read the entire thread, and there seems to be some miss-communication going on here. There are three types of games, and lets look at AO3.3 Captive Audience as an example:
1) Full Clear - This equates to killing every mob on the board, including the jailers and the aliens off to the left of when you come in. (Except Prisoners)
2) Partial Clear - This is killing the mobs in your way, and those needed to spawn the boss. This is typically done by skipping the mobs to the left and the Jailers room.
3) True Rush - This involves ignoring ALL mobs and heading straight to T'Pax, killing him then remaking, and T'Pax and perhaps one or two Yellow aliens that got caught in the cross fire are the only ones killed.

Now correct me if I am wrong here Snakes, but it does not sound like you are saying that you agree with the True Rush, but that you have come to accept the partial clear over the full clear. You are not saying that you think it should go BACK to the way it was, but you accept the way it CURRENTLY is and that it should not become MORE restrictive. Is this correct?

Fluff, most of his post is about how it's ok to do it in your own private game. That was our biggest argument waaaaaay back when -- people should be allowed to play as they wish in their own hosted games. It's those who felt otherwise that fought the rush. So I don't see how that can be his big excuse for changing his mind.

[Kalielle]

Clusterstorm makes my bear look like a leech :)

Lol Elly - you're just being nice. :) I'm always glad to have you in my groups.

But it's funny, I actually started asking bears I don't know to leave when I'm running Catacombs. Snakespeare will be really pleased to hear this, I'm sure - payback time for all those AO2 bears only groups. ;) You should see their reactions when they join and I say, "Sorry no bears."

[Ellyidol]

Lol Elly - you're just being nice. :) I'm always glad to have you in my groups.

But it's funny, I actually started asking bears I don't know to leave when I'm running Catacombs. Snakespeare will be really pleased to hear this, I'm sure - payback time for all those AO2 bears only groups. ;) You should see their reactions when they join and I say, "Sorry no bears."

Nope, I remember the runs with you. I just wanted to get my bird since my bear wasn't doing anything :P

The MOST I could do was Beckon every other bunch of mobs. :P

[Snakespeare]

There were several different nerfs over time. I am referring to the one in which they modified every basic map from Swamp upward so that the boss doesn't spawn until you clear enough mobs. This was in response to the anti-rush campaign for which I will gladly take all the heat even though it was not my idea and I was only one of many players who wanted it. I have come to the position where I accept that this solution is the best solution, so that is why I have adjusted my official stance.

The other nerfs were:

1.) AO1 had the drop rate of pinks squeezed down so far that it hardly ever happens in that campaign any more. This was the first reaction to the rush causing a surfeit of pinks. The map that was used for rushing was AO1:V, and that was removed from the game until it changed.

2.) Swamps (before Lake Louis and the Scalefield/McCroc addition) were nerfed to make the crocs easier to beat. This was because people were skipping Swamps to go directly to AO1 and AO2 since the mobs in AO2:III were very easy to grind XP on (the Mynas Generation).

3.) AO2:III was nerfed by adding Lesser D'Jinn mini-bosses at many intersections. This was done after much pleading by older players to stop the Mynas gen from power leveling there.

4.) The nerf I refer to: bosses didn't spawn until after a certain number of mobs were killed. This was in response to much pleading by many people (I was only one of them). I am still the fall guy for it, somehow, but I don't mind. If I were the only one who mattered, it's a compliment, even though it's not true.

5.) The one you refer to, Shadow Caves: On the first day (and a half) that Shadow Caves came out, the pink drop rate was insane. I do not know this for a fact since the only group playing it was full, but they said that pinks were dropping at 100%. Some players went nuts accusing the devs of sabotaging the economy because these players had Void, Rift, or Cosmos gear in the CS that was now dropping in value. They called Cinco a "ruiner" and that has become a running joke. Turns out, it was an error in the code. But when they fixed it, they made it so that nobody will ever play Caves again. Cinco has hinted at a level 50 Vyxnaar helm in there, appealing to the greed, but people won't do it even though it would fetch a gazillion smackers.

There may have been other nerfs, but I only started in June, so I wouldn't know about them. They did kinda nerf FH:I-IV when they made them open-world content, but that's never been called a nerf, that I know of.

Oh that's right:

6.) Mini-bosses in BS stopped dropping recipes. Reason? People were rushing mini-bosses for recipes. I was unaware of this since I was doing semi-afk farming in FH for recipes, and lost the first two weeks of time in BS.

So it's pretty clear that most of the nerfing is to close loopholes that people find to shortcut the drop system by rushing. And I'm sure it has very little to do with any single person's opinions.

[Snakespeare]

Kalielle, I hope I do get to run with Clusterstorm someday. That sounds like fun! :)

[MoarPewPew]

Yeah snake it's all your fault.... I'm kidding.

Guys, yes snake did make a strong point about rushing awhile back, but the devs ultimately made the choice to modify there game.

For those giving him a hard time, just stop. Whats done is done.