Lowering Dodge Rates For Bears

[Jyuu1205]

Hmm, so recently I have moved up from 31 to 50 and 75? Yeah somewhere there. This post is purely my opinion and I was hoping for a change in PVP. I have played mage for more than four years and the thought of bears having insanely op dodge doesn't seem to go away. Mages after level 50 zone tend to get "nuked" easily after beckon and stomp. Well that's not the case for pally mages up at 56+, but at 50-56, mages suffer with their low M/S rates. Why is M/S rates so important, when bear beckon and stomp, I am pretty sure mages are only left with the option of using Mana shield aka MS. Now if the mage uses MS, bears will most likely rush in and use crushing blow (Hit lowering skill for bears) and Hellstorm (Also a hit lowering skill for bears). If mages are hit by the two bear skills, they will have a seriously low hit percent. The dodge that bears get from (Evade - Increases bear dodge) + (Taunt - Also increases bear dodge) becomes a major problem for mages at this stage. Currently, I am playing level 50 death shotty mage, and when bears dodge off all my skill and yes, I mean all of my skill "Drain, frost, icestorm, lightning, firestorm", I am out of choices. If mages are paying other players to buy these expensive sets off of other players, they should have a certain advantage. However, when I am playing, it's usually the case where mages argue about the bear dodges which is insane at this point. So I am asking Space Time Studios for a certain changes, even though I am afraid that PL is out of business atm.

Thoughts:

-Lower the bear dodge rates
-Alter the cooltime of evade or taunt in a slower phase so that other classes get an opportunity to hit the bears when they are at a lower dodge phase.
-HS / CB, these skills should be limited to one because two of these makes hit percent go negative.
-Change the stats of the bears, especially on the sets. Instead of 6-8 dodges on a single gear of drainers or raid roach / sm / bt sets, maybe lower them to 2-3 dodges.
-Increase the M/S for mages at these levels, so that mages gain another change for a survival. (Well I do know MM sets and other sets have high M/S, they too die easily to bears)
-Increase the range for mage debuffs, if mages hit debuffs at 6-8m? I believe we get hit by hs and a bear coming in can use cb quickly to ruin mage hit rates. So maybe debuffs can be changed to 12m instead of 6m?
-I am pretty sure a lot of people will agree on this last one, lower the damage /dps and dodge rates on plat packs. Plat packs are insane, a single of beckon and stomp combo kills the mages.
-This really is the best solution but, get rid of halloween pinks (Yes I did want to say that). Winterfest pinks /ssc / other sets are enough, i don't really understand why halloween sets were released but they give too much dodge boost.
-If this post doesn't seem convincing, I hope PL devs can test this theory of bears having too much dodge. I wish I really can say get rid of dodge lol but that's too much. Bears are way too overpowered imo, not at 50 under though. Please do something about the plat packs too :)

Again, this is purely my perspective and thoughts, if this offended any of you bears or players in general, I apologize but before saying something, please try mage at levels 50+. I don't know much about endgame but endgame seems to be determined with 2pc / 3 pc rings. Well anyways, thanks for reading and enjoy PL, PL community.

-Artplay GM (Coordinate)-

[Groaning]

Although u say mm has enough m/s but "die easily to Bears" I do believe that mm has the most armor than any other int set, I find that with a combination of sewer King bow and mega Mage helm and robe, is the easiest way to kill bears, with enought m/s to sustain your mana and with the high dps and damage of the bow lets u shoot faster than the staff allowing u to in some way to kill faster. And if your the lucky type of person you could always rely on scrapers insane dodge. I'll end this saying "if u can't beat them, join them"

P.S take away taunt dodge buff, and for pve-ers give them like a guarantee for all the mobs to attack them X amount of second and increase secs per upgrade allowing taunt to still have a use, just not in pvp
Secondly, yes make the mage buff 12m would give us a huge advantage vs bears
Last, make cb lower damage and hs lower heal, or just make cb heal able

[D-:]

All your typing for nothing. STS won't ever change this game lol.

[synfullmagic_23110]

lel .............

[Groaning]

All your typing for nothing. STS won't ever change this game lol.

that's the sad truth

[anahadaz]

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?205168-Regarding-future-development-on-legacy-games

[Jyuu1205]

Heh I mean it's worth the try? Who knows.

[Burningdex]

ATM, i think its kinda balanced, an unbuffed bear gets "nuked" fairly easily by most mages, i mean their dodge is insane but its balanced and tbh i like it the way it is

[Itoopeo]

Its not the Dodge its the crazy strong AoE debuff they have and a skill that gives +70 damage so they do so much damage even with noob bows

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[Motivating]

Ooooh who's your 75?

[anahadaz]

The mace is op at 56, but bears aren't actually too op with forti. Forti, custom and mega mage/enchanted are probably the most balanced sets we have, but glyph ruins it.

[Budapest]

Sorry but a few of those suggestions were just ridiculous. This post is just all about Mages having advantages, not only against Bears, but every other class in general. If this ever happens, all you'll see is Mages in PvP. Then comes the revolution of the "MAGES OP" threads. Take into consideration that players also PvE, and a Bear's role is to Tank. The only way to effectively tank, and not die is through the same skills you hate in PvP: CB, HS, Evade, & Taunt. (Also as a side note: CB only lowers Damage and Dodge, hit is not involved in the skill)

If you honestly hate the M/S of Sentinel Shotgun Mages that much, go pure Int and use a Shadow Set. There's a reason why Mages were given one of the probably most greatest skills in the game: Mana Shield,
to effectively have a chance at beating every character, being the one with the lowest HP out of them all. 6 MS combined with 6 Blessing of Vitality, on top of 6 debuffs? Bears can be easily beat. That 50 dodge can turn into 10-20, if you liked.

-Change the stats of the bears, especially on the sets. Instead of 6-8 dodges on a single gear of drainers or raid roach / sm / bt sets, maybe lower them to 2-3 dodges.

My friend. RR Does not contain dodge in any of the pieces, I believe you mistook it for Royal Sewer.

[Samopwn]

just gonna say changing stuff always messes up other stuff .... low level for instance.... and also pve.

[Itoopeo]

Then buff birds and foxes. More skill damage because they dont have dmg buff. And foxes leap should break roots. OR the fox dodge buff should be spammable and stacking like bears taunt.
Rhinos need 500 base health.

Phoenix bow bird should be able to root-blind-cruel blast kill savage bear. Because bears can beckon stomp kill birds so its fair. After all bird is the damage class and currently intmages do way more damage than birds and its all AoE.

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[Armourslash]

Then buff birds and foxes. More skill damage because they dont have dmg buff. And foxes leap should break roots. OR the fox dodge buff should be spammable and stacking like bears taunt.
Rhinos need 500 base health.

Phoenix bow bird should be able to root-blind-cruel blast kill savage bear. Because bears can beckon stomp kill birds so its fair. After all bird is the damage class and currently intmages do way more damage than birds and its all AoE.

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Yeah 76/77 birds still have chances to kill bears, who said birds were bad? In some levels birds are useless and just get killed all the time but in places like endgame they seem to still be good however i only go to endgame on my bird just for a achievement so...

[Budapest]

Then buff birds and foxes. More skill damage because they dont have dmg buff. And foxes leap should break roots. OR the fox dodge buff should be spammable and stacking like bears taunt.
Rhinos need 500 base health.

Phoenix bow bird should be able to root-blind-cruel blast kill savage bear. Because bears can beckon stomp kill birds so its fair. After all bird is the damage class and currently intmages do way more damage than birds and its all AoE.

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As I said in my previous post above, Bears are Tanks. If they were killed by a measly root cruel blast combo as a Savage Bear, why would they be called Tanks? Giving even more skill damage to the character with the most 12m skills in their arsenal is a tad crazy. If you haven't noticed, Birds are currently the leading class in Arena Kills, and CTF Kills, what they have right now is completely fine. Adding more damage to birds would just add disadvantage to all of the classes.

As for the skill implements, this is an absolute no for me. Foxes have Evade for just that reason, to escape stuns. Fox's Buff is already a Bird's Evade, making it stackable will just turn out in the future to be "Lowering Dodge Rates for Foxes". For Birds, they already have the most 12m skills out of all the characters, they don't require anymore damage, they have crit. The way I see it, crit = x2 damage, so more crit is even better than having damage from a Rage Buff as it amplifies more. As for the Rhino, they can tank as if they had 1,000 HP, giving them more will just make them even harder to kill, and maybe even un-killable.

As for the Phoenix Birds, they can literally Root Break Blast a Swift Bear, it's not the characters that are the problem. It's the OP Str Sets that we have, the ones that everyone uses.

[Budapest]

I would also like to make this quick note. A Savage Bird cannot be Beckon Stomped by a Phoenix Bow Bear, & a Phoenix Bow Bear can die easily to a Cruel Blast combo by itself, so that's even more evidence that it's the Str Sets that are the problem, not the Characters.

[Itoopeo]

Yes but try to fight a bear with fox. Bear perma locks you down with cb HS and cripple. You cant hit him, and he can hit you. No escape.
One solution would be to take off the crit rage buff gives.
So crit becomes more like birds and mages thing.

Mages can be fixed (pallys too) by taking off most of the armor they buff up.
The armor of 77int wand mages is something insane like 380 or so, my blast crits them for like 170 while dex bow birds take 350 or so.
Pallys are just crazy tanky but blind makes them invalid and lack of health causes birds to be eventually be able to 100-0 them

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[Budapest]

Yes but try to fight a bear with fox. Bear perma locks you down with cb HS and cripple. You cant hit him, and he can hit you. No escape.
One solution would be to take off the crit rage buff gives.
So crit becomes more like birds and mages thing.

Mages can be fixed (pallys too) by taking off most of the armor they buff up.
The armor of 77int wand mages is something insane like 380 or so, my blast crits them for like 170 while dex bow birds take 350 or so.
Pallys are just crazy tanky but blind makes them invalid and lack of health causes birds to be eventually be able to 100-0 them

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I was quite sure this thread was about Bears, but nevertheless, that's just the game. It takes skill to overcome disadvantages, if it didn't, why would we play this as other classes with "OP Bears" going around? Foxes can still beat STR Bears, and kill Dex/Int Bears easily. I don't understand where you get, "You cant hit him, and he can hit you. No escape." from... Foxes have a 90% Hit Buff, I repeat, A 90% Hit Buff. That's probably the most OP Buff there is in the game. Foxes can hit anything and everything, and if they hit hamstring, it's impossible to ever miss, even if they're pure STR, not to mention they can run as fast as speed orbs(Yellow) whenever they feel. Lowering Bear's critical rate from rage is somewhat reasonable, however it's completely unfair to those bears(I) who do not use OP STR Sets with quite OP Damage. Taking away crit will also completely change lower levels of PvP, where the Bears aren't quite as "OP".

[Gregjoob]

cb is dmg and dodge debuff not hit% c:

[Budapest]

cb is dmg and dodge debuff not hit% c:

Said that already. :)

[represents]

eh sometimes its bs about the bears dodge when it goes like 10 dodges in a row when i pvped with a talon -_-

[Budapest]

eh sometimes its bs about the bears dodge when it goes like 10 dodges in a row when i pvped with a talon -_-

Bird's dodge at endgame is even worse. Pure Dex Swift Birds dodge more than Savage Bears.

[represents]

Bird's dodge at endgame is even worse. Pure Dex Swift Birds dodge more than Savage Bears.

Yea i have swift set and mine does not dodge as much for a reason

[Itoopeo]

Well I played against 73 str fox with my 73 beastly bird and all i had to do is keep moving and rooot him he couldnt do anything.

He wrecked mages hard tho

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[Jyuu1205]

Lol I am so stuck at 56 pvp, I have no clue on how to beat bears with sm set / bt set or any dodge sets they are using.

[Budapest]

Lol I am so stuck at 56 pvp, I have no clue on how to beat bears with sm set / bt set or any dodge sets they are using.

Check out my guide, and just apply it to Lv.56 Mage with a Charming Set. :playful:

[Ssneakykills]

Lol I am so stuck at 56 pvp, I have no clue on how to beat bears with sm set / bt set or any dodge sets they are using.

As a Mage? Bears aren't that hard for mages imo just kite and keep your distance

[Etarbitrev]

Name a level where bears dont have the potential to be OP when they have all skills.

[Budapest]

Name a level where bears dont have the potential to be OP when they have all skills.

Name four for Mage.

As for your question, I will say Lv.25, Lv.30, Lv.45, & Lv.61.

[Itoopeo]

Name four for Mage.

As for your question, I will say Lv.25, Lv.30, Lv.45, & Lv.61.

No. Your answer is wrong. I have bears at those levels. All are OP

[Budapest]

No. Your answer is wrong. I have bears at those levels. All are OP

So do I. What is your definition of "OP"?

[Etarbitrev]

Over powered is my definition. The point I was getting at is I'd happily nerf all my lower lvls for a general bear nerf to stop lust bear being OP.

[Draoscao]

I was quite sure this thread was about Bears, but nevertheless, that's just the game. It takes skill to overcome disadvantages, if it didn't, why would we play this as other classes with "OP Bears" going around? Foxes can still beat STR Bears, and kill Dex/Int Bears easily. I don't understand where you get, "You cant hit him, and he can hit you. No escape." from... Foxes have a 90% Hit Buff, I repeat, A 90% Hit Buff. That's probably the most OP Buff there is in the game. Foxes can hit anything and everything, and if they hit hamstring, it's impossible to ever miss, even if they're pure STR, not to mention they can run as fast as speed orbs(Yellow) whenever they feel. Lowering Bear's critical rate from rage is somewhat reasonable, however it's completely unfair to those bears(I) who do not use OP STR Sets with quite OP Damage. Taking away crit will also completely change lower levels of PvP, where the Bears aren't quite as "OP".

A bit is true, you said that it's impossible to ever miss but the savage/lust bear usually has their dodge buffs up. And for you to hit that hamstring is very unlikely and even if you do hit that hamstring. You ony debuff -40% dodge i mean that's alot but bears can get 90+ dodge and they would still have a fair 50 dodge and usually dodges 80% of all the hits you deal. I personally tried engame as a full dex fox (76) and savage fox (76). It's true that foxes can kill str bears because i killed them but there were many occasions where i just got beckon stomped and died. I also agree on your point that if you remove the critical hit from bears the whole low-level twinking will change and many people would abandon twinking. And fury has a duration of 10 seconds, you get hs'ed hit drops, you get stomped hit drops and so on. And the problem with foxes is that you cant hit if the enemy is behind you and you've been cripple slashed there is no escape with high dodge from bears, Hell scream, Crushig blow etc. This is a point of view from 76, maybe 77 is another story but I haven't got that far yet

[Budapest]

A bit is true, you said that it's impossible to ever miss but the savage/lust bear usually has their dodge buffs up. And for you to hit that hamstring is very unlikely and even if you do hit that hamstring. You ony debuff -40% dodge i mean that's alot but bears can get 90+ dodge and they would still have a fair 50 dodge and usually dodges 80% of all the hits you deal. I personally tried engame as a full dex fox (76) and savage fox (76). It's true that foxes can kill str bears because i killed them but there were many occasions where i just got beckon stomped and died. I also agree on your point that if you remove the critical hit from bears the whole low-level twinking will change and many people would abandon twinking. And fury has a duration of 10 seconds, you get hs'ed hit drops, you get stomped hit drops and so on. And the problem with foxes is that you cant hit if the enemy is behind you and you've been cripple slashed there is no escape with high dodge from bears, Hell scream, Crushig blow etc. This is a point of view from 76, maybe 77 is another story but I haven't got that far yet

I see what you mean. However it's not the Bear's skills that are the problem, it's due to the fact that STR Gears are so packed up with stats. They have insane dodge, insane damage, insane regen, and to top it all off, insane armor. Instead of nerfing Bears completely, they need to nerf STR sets, or all of the sets in general to have a decent balance in endgame PvP. Give a mage an STR set, and you're left with an almost unkillable CTF beast. A paladin. I've seen so many complaints about paladins which lead me to believe it in fact is the STR sets. Not the characters.

[Itoopeo]

Equip a bird with str set and you see its not about set its the two OP classes.

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[Epw]

When i saw the threads title i was like: what a waste of time.

[Itoopeo]

Well the title is misleading

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[Epw]

Well the title is misleading

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Misleading or not, it doesnt change the fact that we are (all?) already know :)

[Budapest]

Equip a bird with str set and you see its not about set its the two OP classes.

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Hardly. Please think of the situation before just blatantly throwing out assumptions. Also you said "two OP classes", you believe Birds are OP as well...? Anyways, on to topic -
A decently skilled Bird with an STR set can beat Int/Dex characters with ease. A decently skilled Bear with savage would lose to a decently skilled Bird with savage assuming they both hit their hit debuffs, seeing how the bird can obtain 100%+ hit will buffed even with HS applied to them, it's all about who can hit who that determines the fight, leading to STR sets being op, except in one factor: Hit.

[Waug]

str has advantage over non str, but itopeo has a point, pallies r op, not because they just equip a str set, more because it dont suppress their main abilities like high dmg per skill and mana output, their main skill is enough to 2-3 hit kill non strs

Overall I would say it'a really not ez to balance things, that's complicated and messed up not just sets, not just even classes, it's deeper.

Whatever, even just suppressing dodge would do great relief to pvp.

[anahadaz]

Would you rather see str sets get a big dodge nerf, or see pallies and bears lose their damage output?

[Draoscao]

Would you rather see str sets get a big dodge nerf, or see pallies and bears lose their damage output?

Definitely the damage output, If you cant kill you'll move over to int and dex sets almost no one would play pally if their damage output is lowered. And i think the pallies need the damage lowering more than bears because otherwise you will always see those Lustrous Dex set Bears. And vs a bird you only have to hit auto and beckon and the fight is over..

[Itoopeo]

Well as a beastly warbird i fought a 66 tiki bear and he cc'd me around for like 5 minutes before i managed to dodge 2 of his hellscreams in a row and do my full combo.
The bear debuffs and high crit make them op

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[anahadaz]

Definitely the damage output, If you cant kill you'll move over to int and dex sets almost no one would play pally if their damage output is lowered. And i think the pallies need the damage lowering more than bears because otherwise you will always see those Lustrous Dex set Bears. And vs a bird you only have to hit auto and beckon and the fight is over..

Yeah. I remember someone suggesting taking the dodge from all sets and adding dodge to the dodge classes buffs, but can you imagine swift bears running around with 80+ dodge?

[Budapest]

Well as a beastly warbird i fought a 66 tiki bear and he cc'd me around for like 5 minutes before i managed to dodge 2 of his hellscreams in a row and do my full combo.
The bear debuffs and high crit make them op

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You must just be inexperienced as a warbird then. Repulse then both Roots + Blind, then Break + Shat + Blast could have easily beaten that bear in 10 seconds or less. Even if you were hit by HS, while buffed you still have around 90%+ hit.

[Etarbitrev]

True^, but after doing 66 warbird (idk if its any diff but I assume its fairly similar from what I've seen) its a lot easier said than done. What happens if he dodges the roots or blind or repulse or he survives combo due to cb & hs hitting or just not critting etc. MANY reasons why bears are OP all these factors collectively are part of the big reason.

[Budapest]

True^, but after doing 66 warbird (idk if its any diff but I assume its fairly similar from what I've seen) its a lot easier said than done. What happens if he dodges the roots or blind or repulse or he survives combo due to cb & hs hitting or just not critting etc. MANY reasons why bears are OP all these factors collectively are part of the big reason.

However, a 71 Warbird can kill a Dex/Int Bear in 5 seconds or less if those skills hit(Highly likely). It's honestly not Bears that are that OP, it's just the STR Sets that makes any character quite much to whelm with.

[Etarbitrev]

True dat^.
in most levels, but not EVERY level, for example 20 mage + str set gives just enough stats to make pally viable.

[Itoopeo]

Well dexbears tend to hit HS even more often due to high hit% but they are easier to kill yes.
Still harder to kill talon bear than talon bird.

I do warbird because getting killed by just becon stomp made me want to throw my phone to samhaynes head for not fixing it.
Beastly allows me to easily survive full crit beckon stomp sms combo from 77 lust bear with about 15-20% health left.
Mages rarely can nuke me with just ice fire and i actually have time to do something.
In ctf if im getting healed by int mage, im working as a medium tank and still have the damage and range to assassinate all enemy birds and pop enemy mages mana shiel or blind root bear.
Traditional birds die so much more and cant tank anything at all. They die from root blast and are useful only if they can melt down the bear or kite opponent mage down. If they get beckoned - its quaranteed death.

Bears can tank much more and deal crazy amounts of aoe damage and have great cc and op massive 14m aoe debuff. Only thing does something to them is blind and they have like 80% change to dodge it and cooldown is long

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