Bandit Boy Stronghold

[davidis57]

What is the fixation with groups wanting to pull mobs on this map? It doesn't save deaths or stop you from dying by fire traps. When you have lag there is many deaths. I died six times on one run. With that many deaths and trash drop from the queen it makes the small XP I got not worth it. I am pretty laid back and don't really gripe about stuff but your not in a race. Clearing the map the way it was meant to be cleared you have lot less deaths and more XP. When you die you get less XP if you were not aware of that. I don't care about dieing I have almost 1500 deaths. However deaths that could be avoided upsets me some. I just don't like the pulling mobs in this game too much save the pulling for WOW or L2.

Timbabird lvl 55

[karmakali]

Adrenaline rush :)

[icantgetkills]

i round up mobs we clear it very fast i have never had a wipe out on that map you should get a better team to be honest

[Necrobane]

It's not just the tank that benefits from these pulls, mages and archers love being able to combo large groups as it is satisfying. Don't like it? Request for the group to avoid pulling large mobs, if their remotely civilised then it's problem solved.

[davidis57]

Its pulling during laggy server that really don't care for. We just had a 4 person wipe because of it. I agree I like the damage but most of the time too much lag with too many mobs at just the wrong time. Pings been high for a week.

[noneo]

Its pulling during laggy server that really don't care for. We just had a 4 person wipe because of it. I agree I like the damage but most of the time too much lag with too many mobs at just the wrong time. Pings been high for a week.

I agree.

Depending on how your team is set up, no matter how well the tank pulls the mobs, everyone/most everyone will get wiped. It doesn't really go any faster (the amount faster is negligible), and it lag-kills me nearly everytime. Try being an INT mage and surviving though that. The second you cast a debuff, your done. I prefer just good old fashioned running and killing.

[Subterraneous]

Hmm then don't get in my groups...

[karmakali]

Ultimately it comes down to a matter of preference. I have leveled out and to farm BB Hideout gets boring and repetitious. Avoiding a highly possible team wipeout becomes part of the challenge. There are teams out there to suit all types of players. Find one that works in harmony with your play style and have fun! :)

[Ellyidol]

It's definitely fun to do once in awhile, but basing from practicality, it's just not worth it.

The idea that it's "faster" just comes from the fact that you actually spam less and spend more time waiting than actually killing. The only bit that actually speeds up the run is when you split into two groups from the main huge room to those two corridors and you meet in the middle. After that, it should just be free-for-all killing in that mazed spiral.

Unless of course you've got a tank that just speed pots up and actually makes those huge mobs ready every time ;)

[Kalielle]

I prefer rondups when I play on my mage, because with a good group I'm actually less likely to die from firetraps. I hate seeing mobs scatter all over the place over the firetraps and you have the choice to leave them or die chasing them.

I very rarely see wipes in our groups; there are occasional deaths but not more so than I've seen in groups fighting the regular way. If anything people seem to die more from the firetrap passage where they're all in a row, than from fighting after pulls. If your group is wiping all the time or people are dying 6 times, something's not right. Maybe your tank is not taunting enough or not pulling at the right place. It also helps to have at least 2 mages in the group, since the occasional mage death will inevitably happen.

[Ayrilana]

I don't things many PUGS can pull it off. I've only been in a couple groups that managed to do this and we cleared stronghold in less than 4 min every time. Actually, I think it was with the same people both days. The puller was using a speed pot. I wish I could remember their name and get them to post how they did it. All I remember is that they were Korean and had a habit of "hiding" in the barrel at the beginning of the map while we all got ready.

[WhoIsThis]

I don't things many PUGS can pull it off. I've only been in a couple groups that managed to do this and we cleared stronghold in less than 4 min every time. Actually, I think it was with the same people both days. The puller was using a speed pot. I wish I could remember their name and get them to post how they did it. All I remember is that they were Korean and had a habit of "hiding" in the barrel at the beginning of the map while we all got ready.

It depends on the skill of the puller and the team. With a good team, I find that it can save time, although not as much as the more ardent advocates claim. If there was a dodge pot, well, it would make it easy. Speed pot + dodge pot - lol. Speed pot is much more useful than tank pot for roundup.

Deaths seem to happen when all of the mob concentrates on one player - often an int mage after they've nuked. I'm still debating between staff or wand/bracer for this - staff for raw firepower, but wand because you are likely to live.

I'm guessing that the tank may have been Knightnoi.

[Moogerfooger]

I agree.

Depending on how your team is set up, no matter how well the tank pulls the mobs, everyone/most everyone will get wiped. It doesn't really go any faster (the amount faster is negligible), and it lag-kills me nearly everytime. Try being an INT mage and surviving though that. The second you cast a debuff, your done. I prefer just good old fashioned running and killing.



Deaths seem to happen when all of the mob concentrates on one player - often an int mage after they've nuked. I'm still debating between staff or wand/bracer for this - staff for raw firepower, but wand because you are likely to live.


This is the key point. They are not necessarily faster, because time spent cleaning up stragglers is a factor, waiting time partially offsets the big kill factor, although these are also dependent on the skill of the team, like some have mentioned.

However....what bears (myself included, as I have rounded up on mine for a while) fail to realize is that as soon as a Int mage unleashes a debuff on that mob of 20 you just brought over, or a bird unleashes a heavy-hitting Cruel Blast, guess who now has mad mob aggro? That's right, it's not you the bear or pally (as your skill damage if throwing skills is lower on a pally). It's that Int mage or bird, and speaking from experience 20 mobs drilling a Int mage or a bird is not a good thing once they have inadvertently gotten large mob aggro. I have died more on my bird and mage doing roundups than I ever did NOT doing them, and I have never been accused of sucking.

That said, there are some areas where splitting up like on Stronghold when a tank/pally goes right and the rest go up and meet in the middle where it seems to work well. Or when the roundups are a little smaller, say 5-12ish mobs (just making a number up).

Yes it's fun (for the bear/pally rounding). Yes it's something different. Yes, it is showy. Yes, it also gets people killed due to lag induced by the huge combos going off. Yes it kills people due to playing on slow connections. Yes, it can also easily kill even skilled mages and archers due to massive mob aggro.

Just my opinion, not saying anyone here is "wrong". I just prefer to play as a "team"/group kite method where everyone has a better chance of complimenting each other's skills by being close, unlike Catacomb rushes where everyone can easily get strung out having to clean up stragglers, dodging traps, etc. Sometimes people are going for XP, so leaving them behind and missing out on that XP for the sake of saving 30 seconds is questionable.

[FluffNStuff]

I have found the key to being successful is to not pull too many mobs. If you have more mobs then will get caught in your archers roots, you are going to have a problem, since any that avoid the insta kill from nature strike + blast are gonna swarm your team.

[Blind]

I'm a pure intel mage, and today i was able to pull with mega set, (with the help of speed and tank pots :D)

[Riccits]

i think this will need some time compares to know what method is faster... but imo pulling is faster, bcz u can begin pull even not all mates joined party and u if u dont make crowds all players begin to single kill somewhere in the area wich is very slow and uncoordinated.. the "puller" just needs to run as much foreward as possible to dont let wait much the others..
and yes... some deaths arent avoidable with that system, but its not so tragic..

[davidis57]

Fighting in between fire grates you will find yourself being like a pinball game which will result in death. Its best to kite and keep moving as a group as you clear on your way to the queen.

[Doubletime]

I don't think one method is better than the other per se, but I do prefer the roundup when the party is setup correctly. In most PUGs, I avoid it unless the party is pally and archer heavy.

Last night I farmed Stronghold with Olliwalli, Echelong, Mitsuisun, and Anichelith (I believe he was the 5th). So we had 2 pallys, and pure mage and two dex birds. Olli would round and we could ususally one or two shot kill the mobs with combos as one or two of us was usually running a damage pot. It was very quick to clear and left little chance for a fire pit death. For me, this type of party is perfect for rounding. However, we even still have the occasional death, which none of us really care about.

So for me, the party makeup dictates tactics for stronghold. Roundup can work well, you just have to have the right people to pull it off. If it is a random PUG, the Death Train/Kite method works better it seems.

[Echelong]

I don't think one method is better than the other per se, but I do prefer the roundup when the party is setup correctly. In most PUGs, I avoid it unless the party is pally and archer heavy.

Last night I farmed Stronghold with Olliwalli, Echelong, Mitsuisun, and Anichelith (I believe he was the 5th). So we had 2 pallys, and pure mage and two dex birds. Olli would round and we could ususally one or two shot kill the mobs with combos as one or two of us was usually running a damage pot. It was very quick to clear and left little chance for a fire pit death. For me, this type of party is perfect for rounding. However, we even still have the occasional death, which none of us really care about.

So for me, the party makeup dictates tactics for stronghold. Roundup can work well, you just have to have the right people to pull it off. If it is a random PUG, the Death Train/Kite method works better it seems.

Yeah those where really good roundups, but the thing about that is that the player doing the roundup needs to know when enough enemies is enough. If they do to much of a big pull it could easily wipe the party, but last night we had two pro pallys rounding up and they where very clean runs. The good thing I like about rounding up was the area with the scatter fire traps in strong hold; because it is easier and less deadly as for the others its just about who and how big is the pull.

[MITSUISUN]

I liked the 1-2-3-K&Q stop that we did. Best of all I was nuking as a noob mage and not as noob bird. Played nonstop mage this past weekend and finally understand why people play mage. it's so fun. I might just delete my bird and be a mage rofl.

nah...

Kudos to all the rounders and mages out there that I have grouped. you guys are amazing.

Death Train ftw but once in a while when you just wanna be lazy / holding a drink and play at same time, a round up party would be nice :p

[Moogerfooger]

If it is a random PUG, the Death Train/Kite method works better it seems.

I would be willing to bet a lot of pretzels that a certain Death Train team can clear Stronghold as fast as any roundup party. Video runs may have to commence :p and I may have to eat crow if not.

[Echelong]

I would be willing to bet a lot of pretzels that a certain Death Train team can clear Stronghold as fast as any roundup party. Video runs may have to commence :p and I may have to eat crow if not.

Interesting...

I mean the crow part, I am pretty sure a well done death train will clear just as fast if not faster.

[Ayrilana]

I'm guessing that the tank may have been Knightnoi.

Nope. I think they were a paladin. I believe a round up team would be quicker so long as the tank is constantly pulling and not waiting for everything to be dead first. When I was doing the runs, by the time we finished one group of enemies, the tank had another group coming to us.

[Moogerfooger]

I believe a round up team would be quicker so long as the tank is constantly pulling and not waiting for everything to be dead first.

Then it depends if a team is simply rushing to get to the boss, or trying to kill as many enemies as possible for XP. I disagree that for a max xp run that roundups are faster than death trains if a party is concentrating on killing mobs for xp. I have been in parties that have looped around the main area of stronghold and wiped all mobs completely just as fast as a bear/pally with no speed pot could round up, much less have the mob kill after rounding. You should know, you were there.

Dead horse being kicked (partially by me).

Everyone has their own preferences. Barring timing a lot of runs, there is no right or wrong answer. Both have advanatges and disdavantages, and it is up to opinion/preference.

[Ayrilana]

I don't know. I was getting like 378 per run with 3x pot. Honestly, i doubt it really matters in the end which is faster.

[Plasticuproject]

Lol I die all the time doing this because I equip my highest crit/damage which has low armor. But when I get my combo in before the lag hits.........GLORIOUS......It is incredibly fun.

[Moogerfooger]

Let Olli Walli pick a dream team to go vs the Death Train team. :)

Deal. 10 runs, Stronghold, timed, must kill all mobs, no pots or elixirs. No skipping any mobs.

Phys and/or I will round up (pun intended) a Death Train dream team, time permitting.

[Moogerfooger]

I don't know. I was getting like 378 per run with 3x pot. Honestly, i doubt it really matters in the end which is faster.

Agreed. Doesn't really matter. What DOES bug me is people coming into MY game and telling me how I should run MY game. I don't like booting, and I like a good argument sometimes :p

And I was getting the same XP using the same pot using Phys'/my method :)

[Subterraneous]

It's personal preference really. Usually i get to the boss' with about 1 minute left on an xp elixir. A coordinated group can do the same using death train. I employ the death train method (combined with a little rounding up) in Catacombs so I don't think it's a matter of choosing one method you like versus the other. They are both effective. The key is the group lead and his/her timing to stay ahead of the group and "package up mobs" for killing blows.

[Moogerfooger]

It's personal preference really. Usually i get to the boss' with about 1 minute left on an xp elixir. A coordinated group can do the same using death train. I employ the death train method (combined with a little rounding up) in Catacombs so I don't think it's a matter of choosing one method you like versus the other. They are both effective. The key is the group lead and his/her timing to stay ahead of the group and "package up mobs" for killing blows.

Totally agreed...personal preference. I purposely was running with you last night, even though I generally dislike most roundups, just to hang slightly behind your roundups/aggro pulls and mini-death train with you :D was pretty fun, even I will admit that.

Most problems I have run into are pulls that may be a little too big for an int mage or dex archer to deal with, when they get mob aggro. 5-12 mobs is perfect, but there can be trouble/party wipes even with good players (and there are a lot of great players on this thread on both sides of the debate :)) if over-mobbed.

I over-pulled a couple of times on my bear and the int mages and archers were wiped quickly (and they weren't noobs) and I felt lousy because I wasted everyone's elixirs. The dreaded bear guilt.

[Subterraneous]

I usually try ti do a hideout run first to gauge my group. I then base my pulls based on how many mobs they can handle. Sometimes I do misjudge but we've had some good groups here lately.

[drewcapu]

The roundup at the beginning of stronghold is a good indicator for how well they'll do in the big room.

[aloysiuslau]

I'm a pure intel mage, and today i was able to pull with mega set, (with the help of speed and tank pots :D)

Oh so it was you! Pls respect others and treat others how you want others to treat unto you.

I was in the game with you. Im using my bear(Tank). Im the only bear around. So i ask you guys to wait. I go and pull the mob. Then when im half way, my ping rise to 2000 plus when mostly is around 200-300. I dont know why my ping always rise once in a while. Maybe because im in Singapore? I got stuck in the middle but yet i still success to bring all the mob to you guys. Just a few sec late. And this is what you comments. (Stupid bear, f....ing,...... ) Then after i saw this comments from you i stop and take a look, and guess maybe you are unhappy of me pulling cause you wish to try it out and that is why you pot up potion. And then i leave the game even without thinking of replying to your comments.

Im not the best bear around, but im trying my very best to tank. Alright! Just remember how will you feel if someone say all this to you ONE DAY?
I rather be quiet then to give negative comments, to build and not to tear.

Games are just purely for Enjoyment! Alright best wishes to you!

[davidis57]

In a few weeks we will get to see how this will work with the global cool down. You all might want to purchase ahead your favorite orange, green, and purple lvl 55 set since bonuses will be added unless you already have the million dollar gear. I imagine prices may fluctuate some.

[StompArtist]

Pulling is fun makes a bunch of pretty colors and "combo!"... that makes it worth it to me. I don't care if it's more or less efficient when I play games I want to have fun. This is fun to me so I'll keep doing it. :D

[neko]

Yeah those where really good roundups, but the thing about that is that the player doing the roundup needs to know when enough enemies is enough. If they do to much of a big pull it could easily wipe the party, but last night we had two pro pallys rounding up and they where very clean runs. The good thing I like about rounding up was the area with the scatter fire traps in strong hold; because it is easier and less deadly as for the others its just about who and how big is the pull.

Wow! I'm really flattered, but Olli did most of the pulls. I'm just happy to play along with an awesome group.

I think this topic will continued to be debated, even long after empirical data has proven one over the other. Many of us have played in enough games, with seasoned players and otherwise, to see the pros and cons of either methods. I don't advocate one over the other, other than I'll go with the flow and adapt as necessary if I see the mix and skill level suits that particular playstyle.

For sure, rounding up has its showiness and occasional benefits of saving players from dying while crossing or accidentally AoE'ing near active firepits. Evidentally, unexpected server lag can also wipe out an entire round up group, no matter how elite they are. I also thoroughly love playing Phys/Mooger/et al's death train style, but I find it much harder to assemble together a similarly uber elite group of players at any one time, especially is PUGs.

I think as long as it's stated at the beginning (PUGs) or you're with a group you're familiar with, "rounding up" and "death train" are but methods you can use in your arsenal to enjoy the game.

[RedRyder]

get a better team :p

[Moogerfooger]

get a better team :p

This has already been pointed out, but here is a cookie for playing :) And it's not the point a lot of the time to begin with...we were debating pros and cons of speed between the two methods with an equally skilled team, not with how good the team was :p

[StompArtist]

This has already been pointed out, but here is a cookie for playing. And it's not the point a lot of the time to begin with. We were debating pros and cons of speed between the two methods with an equally skilled team.

I would venture to say that the first round up speeds things up but not really for the subsequent ones.

[Moogerfooger]

I would venture to say that the first round up speeds things up but not really for the subsequent ones.

No. Phys and I and crew can clear the first room just as fast as any roundup, when you factor in waiting time for the roundup. Period.

What DOES work pretty well is a tank/pally splitting right and meeting on that bridge, after the big room is clear. Even I will admit that works pretty damn well :D

Again....personal preference.

[StompArtist]

No. Phys and I and crew can clear the first room just as fast as any roundup, when you factor in waiting time for the roundup. Period.

Again....personal preference.

Completely agree on personal preference. Case closed. lol

[Moogerfooger]

Completely agree on personal preference. Case closed. lol

Dang you are fast like a fat kid when he hears someone yell "free ice cream!" lol....I edited in about a tank splitting right from that main room and meeting the party who goes up, but dang if you didn't post in less than 30 seconds it seemed like :cool:

[jaggedlilpill]

I like the rounding up thing it's fun, I play my pure bird and mage almost equal. Only thing is, some bears get a little "pull happy" and want to pull the whole second room(maze with all the fire pits). That is overkill, for one, it causes huge lag, two there are so many mobs that you can't get them all in one or two combos, and it almost always results in a full group wipe out. On the first room, always do fine, it's not an overkill of mobs.

And the other day, I was in a group where the bear pulled the entire second room, then said we all suck, then left. I joined a new game didn't realize it was again his game, he booted immediately with the reason no way. I replied, not knowing it was the same guy, then he proceeded to call me a noob, etc. I explained that birds and mages pull all the aggro and are squishy and he just proceeded with the noob lol.

[StompArtist]

I like the rounding up thing it's fun, I play my pure bird and mage almost equal. Only thing is, some bears get a little "pull happy" and want to pull the whole second room(maze with all the fire pits). That is overkill, for one, it causes huge lag, two there are so many mobs that you can't get them all in one or two combos, and it almost always results in a full group wipe out. On the first room, always do fine, it's not an overkill of mobs.

And the other day, I was in a group where the bear pulled the entire second room, then said we all suck, then left. I joined a new game didn't realize it was again his game, he booted immediately with the reason no way. I replied, not knowing it was the same guy, then he proceeded to call me a noob, etc. I explained that birds and mages pull all the aggro and are squishy and he just proceeded with the noob lol.

I have seen a bear called Ali...something pull the second room perfectly on more than one occasions. Takes lots of skills to properly do it in my opinion but when done right it is very effective.

[jaggedlilpill]

I have seen a bear called Ali...something pull the second room perfectly on more than one occasions. Takes lots of skills to properly do it in my opinion but when done right it is very effective.

How do you avoid the lag? That's always my problem.

[StompArtist]

How do you avoid the lag? That's always my problem.

Honestly I am not sure... I was just in awe over how smoothly it was done. Been trying to stalk the player since to observe more but no luck. lol

[noneo]

How do you avoid the lag? That's always my problem.

You pretty much can't. That is the main reason I get killed during round-ups, I lag to much for my phone to register my pot-spamming.

I think that is the main reason for the GCD. so everyone can't unleash all of their spells at once and cause massive lag... Which will most likely put the ca-bosh on round-ups.

[Moogerfooger]

And the other day, I was in a group where the bear pulled the entire second room, then said we all suck, then left. I joined a new game didn't realize it was again his game, he booted immediately with the reason no way. I replied, not knowing it was the same guy, then he proceeded to call me a noob, etc. I explained that birds and mages pull all the aggro and are squishy and he just proceeded with the noob lol.

Part of a bear's job, regardless of being a tank, a dex bear, dual spec, whatever...is to help soak up some damage to help keep other squishier party members alive. This guy/gal may be really good, but a total failbear in the way he acted towards you guys.

Most bears, especially ones on this thread/on the forums in general, do an awesome job at this regardless of how they do it....sorry you ran into a bad one.

[drewcapu]

I've pulled the whole room before as a bear and even requested a bear to pull the whole room while on int mage (because it's fun!!!) when I noticed that there were two good int mages in the group. If there's only one int mage in the group, pulling the whole second room is usually asking for trouble ;)