Dodge

[Survivorfan]

If you could get your dodge to 100%, wouldn't you be invincible? Is it possible?
Just a question that popped into my head...Share your thoughts!

[Arterra]

pretty sure somehow that hit% over 100% counts against dodge...

[Zeus]

pretty sure somehow that hit% over 100% counts against dodge...

So I can't be like Neo then? :(

[Survivorfan]

Whoever said anything about hit? If your invincible, it won't matter how high your hit % is

[JaytB]

Even of you would somehow manage to get a dodge of 100%, that would only be as long as your buffs are active. If it would be possible, and it would make you invincible, I think the devs would tweak it down soon enough ;)

[Ellyidol]

Technically, if dodge was a %, then you'd be invincible with 100 dodge.

Question is though, how Hit/Crit works vs Dodge, and how dodge actually works.

My impression is, let's say you have 100 hit vs 50 dodge. You actually hit 100% of the time, but because of the 50 dodge, he dodges 50% of the hits, but, if you have high crit, they could replace the normal hits and dodge not working.

100 hit and 40 crit vs 50 dodge.

10 normal attacks, with 10 made, the moment the attack lands, it first goes through the chance to crit. Once it crits, it can't be dodged. If the attack doesn't crit, it goes through the dodge factor of 50/50.

Again just an impression, I dont have any proof of how it works other than speculation.

[KingFu]

Technically, if dodge was a %, then you'd be invincible with 100 dodge.

Question is though, how Hit/Crit works vs Dodge, and how dodge actually works.

My impression is, let's say you have 100 hit vs 50 dodge. You actually hit 100% of the time, but because of the 50 dodge, he dodges 50% of the hits, but, if you have high crit, they could replace the normal hits and dodge not working.

100 hit and 40 crit vs 50 dodge.

10 normal attacks, with 10 made, the moment the attack lands, it first goes through the chance to crit. Once it crits, it can't be dodged. If the attack doesn't crit, it goes through the dodge factor of 50/50.

Again just an impression, I dont have any proof of how it works other than speculation.

Dodge is a percentage I take it since that's what you see on the stats of a weapon that has dodge. IE "5% Dodge". I don't thimk crit has anything to do with dodge, question is, does hit? Physio explained it as you take the percentage, and basically roll to see if you dodge the attack, if you don't, then it rolls for crit. But I don't know if hit has anything to do with it. It's hard to test since virtually with 50% dodge, you'd dodge half the attacks, but it doesn't always play out that way.

[Ellyidol]

Dodge is a percentage I take it since that's what you see on the stats of a weapon that has dodge. IE "5% Dodge". I don't thimk crit has anything to do with dodge, question is, does hit? Physio explained it as you take the percentage, and basically roll to see if you dodge the attack, if you don't, then it rolls for crit. But I don't know if hit has anything to do with it. It's hard to test since virtually with 50% dodge, you'd dodge half the attacks, but it doesn't always play out that way.

So attacks roll for dodge first before crit? That's new. I was always under the impression that crit had it's own roll chance even, regardless of hit. Must be from the impression of other games.

I remember when Fury was still 8 dodge and a fully buffed pure str bear would get to about 71-72 dodge I think. Literally invincible 90% of the time. I could just stand there and dodge the entire mage/bird combo, and when they do hit, the high armour kicks in.

[Physiologic]

This is my understanding of how PL's roll system works. A roll system is how one action is affected by several variables, and once one roll is completed, the second part of the system kicks in, and so on. The roll system is applied in many types of games (not just limited to MMOs) that have variable stats/attributes that affect the system in some way or another.

When you attack an enemy, the game follows a specific algorithm that determines the outcome of the attack:
1. You will MISS the attack
2. The enemy will DODGE the attack
3. You will damage the enemy
4. You will critically damage the enemy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

Hit% roll is based off of your hit%. There is a probable cap to this value (<100% despite your hit% value).
Enemy dodge % roll is an unknown variable for each enemy.
Crit% roll is based off of your crit. There is no cap for crit atm.
Critical damage = effective damage x2
Effective damage = damage - enemy armor

I did not include weapon proc in this, as they activate at a low random occurrence. The proc most likely adds at the very end, after damage/critical damage is calculated.

This is my current basic understanding of the roll system. I think each given attribute (hit%, dodge, crit%) is independent in each part of the system.

Bringing back the old crit chart up:

Void set, with Focus (+25% hit, +25% Crit): Hit% 165, Crit 46, Damage 180-225

146 146 151 dodge 119 141 109 235C dodge 119
122 273C 269C 114 241C 257C dodge 122 dodge 114
dodge 132 141 141 147 149 254C miss 308C 135
273C 271C 203C 279C 270C 273C 302C 114 142 138
256C 132 262C dodge 139 296C 253C 151 225C 133
116 110 253C 223C 118 282C 122 142 miss 116
127 133 283C 307C 116 134 miss 146 129 142
miss 153 141 279C 226C 297C dodge 310C 265C miss
201C dodge 130 238C 135 dodge 295C 119 223C dodge
252C 264C 149 203C 262C 118 152 142 118 300C

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 15
Successful hits: 85

Non-criticals landed: 47 (55.29%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-153
Total non-critical damage: 6205
Average non-critical damage: 132.0

Criticals landed: 38 (44.7%)
Critical damage range: 201-310
Total critical damage: 9963
Average critical damage: 262.2

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 16,168

Crits landed was 44.7%, very close to the crit value of 46. We know hit% is capped. There were 10 dodges.

When crit and hit is lowered in the next example:

Void set, Without Focus: Hit% 140, Crit 21, Damage 180-225

132 230C 122 151 141 123 118 145 308C 112
251C dodge 145 119 117 124 129 dodge 121 116
116 118 131 133 120 123 147 142 dodge 130
144 dodge 119 149 miss 124 miss 134 128 dodge
dodge 112 142 136 134 112 206C 119 117 128
151 279C 128 115 287C 221C 143 miss 128 300C
133 147 198C 121 291C 141 255C dodge 131 115
dodge miss 274C 153 116 133 109 126 129 132
154 129 113 131 dodge dodge 113 121 dodge 125
144 127 131 dodge 130 224C 111 130 257C 126

Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 100
Dodge/miss: 16
Successful hits: 84

Non-criticals landed: 70 (83.33%)
Non-critical damage range: 109-154
Total non-critical damage: 9009
Average non-critical damage: 128.7

Criticals landed: 14 (16.67%)
Critical damage range: 198-300
Total critical damage: 3581
Average critical damage: 255.8

Total damage (non-crit and crit): 12,590

You get 12 dodges, which is a pretty insignificant change from 10 dodges.

Thus why I believe this is the current system at work. If there's more complex things at work I would love to know!

[Survivorfan]

Lol, Physiologic to the rescue with his infinite knowledge of Pocket Legends

[KingFu]

Leave it to Physio to answer your question, and give you a headache:p

[Ellyidol]

Makes sense Phys, much better understanding :)

Now I wonder if there's a dodge cap too, since with 50 dodge, that's already 50% dodged, but doesn't seem to be that way in pvp.

Also, I don't know if I'm seeing it right, but in your flow chart, when you ask "Dodge successful?" the no points to the dodge while the yes points to the roll for crit. :D

[Physiologic]

I'm not saying its right :) It could be that dodge comes before hit but even then, it won't matter.

Hit roll first then dodge roll: If you're attacking someone and hit% succeeds and enemy's dodge% succeeds, you didn't hit them.

Dodge roll first then hit roll: If you're attacking someone and enemy's dodge% succeeds, you didn't hit them (since it's unncessary to go to the hit% roll).

And oops, gotta fix that about the chart :D

Also note that PvP has some 10% damage nerf thing implemented in January, and it could possibly be that other stats might be nerfed as well.



PvP damage has been reduced by 10 percent


Just damage, asommers??

[noobmigo]

Gawd, where did Royce Go?

[KingFu]

Makes sense Phys, much better understanding :)

Now I wonder if there's a dodge cap too, since with 50 dodge, that's already 50% dodged, but doesn't seem to be that way in pvp.

Also, I don't know if I'm seeing it right, but in your flow chart, when you ask "Dodge successful?" the no points to the dodge while the yes points to the roll for crit. :D

Maybe it doesn't seem that way in pvp because yup get debuffed?

[Ellyidol]

Maybe it doesn't seem that way in pvp because yup get debuffed?

Possible, but after debuffs, let's say from a bird, usually only single target root hits, that's -30 dodge is it?

Even at 25ish dodge, I almost dont dodge any. Either I'm really really unlucky with 25% odds (quite good IMO) or I'm missing something important here -pvp noob D:

[Nightarcher]

Yeah I've always thought of it similar to how Physio explained it. But one question kinda brought up by Elly:

We assume crit is a % of the total hits. So with 100 hit%, and 100/100 hits done, 20 crit would crit somewhere around 20 times. But if you have, say, 70 hit%, will 20 crit be 20% chance out of 100/100 hits or 70/100 hits? (basically, is crit before or separate from hit?)

[KingFu]

Possible, but after debuffs, let's say from a bird, usually only single target root hits, that's -30 dodge is it?

Even at 25ish dodge, I almost dont dodge any. Either I'm really really unlucky with 25% odds (quite good IMO) or I'm missing something important here -pvp noob D:

Thorn root debuffs 30 dodge I believe. But if both roots hit you, you get a debuff of 50 dodge and 48 HS. Not to mention nightmare.

[Rhuagh]

i agree with myst... im getting a headache;) i cant compete in the brain cell category with you guys... =0

[Ellyidol]

Thorn root debuffs 30 dodge I believe. But if both roots hit you, you get a debuff of 50 dodge and 48 HS. Not to mention nightmare.

Yeah, and only both used at once can actually stop me in place right? (Most annoying). Hopefully GCD will improve that.

[aloysiuslau]

Wow! Physiologic you are great!

[Fyrce]

Ahhhhhhhh!

Headache!

[noneo]

This is my understanding of how PL's roll system works. A roll system is how one action is affected by several variables, and once one roll is completed, the second part of the system kicks in, and so on. The roll system is applied in many types of games (not just limited to MMOs) that have variable stats/attributes that affect the system in some way or another.

When you attack an enemy, the game follows a specific algorithm that determines the outcome of the attack:
1. You will MISS the attack
2. The enemy will DODGE the attack
3. You will damage the enemy
4. You will critically damage the enemy

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

Hit% roll is based off of your hit%. There is a probable cap to this value (<100% despite your hit% value).
Enemy dodge % roll is an unknown variable for each enemy.
Crit% roll is based off of your crit. There is no cap for crit atm.
Critical damage = effective damage x2
Effective damage = damage - enemy armor

I did not include weapon proc in this, as they activate at a low random occurrence. The proc most likely adds at the very end, after damage/critical damage is calculated.

This is my current basic understanding of the roll system. I think each given attribute (hit%, dodge, crit%) is independent in each part of the system.

Bringing back the old crit chart up:


Crits landed was 44.7%, very close to the crit value of 46. We know hit% is capped. There were 10 dodges.

When crit and hit is lowered in the next example:


You get 12 dodges, which is a pretty insignificant change from 10 dodges.

Thus why I believe this is the current system at work. If there's more complex things at work I would love to know!

I understand that Hit% is capped at 85%, so out of 100 attempts, you will hit an enemy 85 times. But if that enemy has 100% dodge (assuming it is not capped), then no matter how high your hit% is, you will still be unable to hit the enemy.

Looking at your roll chart:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/d1nonlik/algorithm.jpg

Lets say:
I am attacking a mob with 100% dodge.
I have 200% hit (more than enough to keep me at the 85% cap)

Then first, I roll for a hit (vs. Miss). My hit then goes to the next roll 85% of the time. (missing 15% of the time)

After that, my roll continues for hit again (vs. Dodge). This is where it gets shady for me.

Now, this factor is solely based off of the enemy DODGE. (since you already "landed" the hit, you just have to see if the mob dodges it). If the enemy has 100% DODGE (that is uncapped) then the mob will dodge every hit. This makes me think 100% DODGE does in fact lead to an invincible character.

Wouldn't 100% DODGE (assuming that there is no cap) actually make one invincible?

[HorizonSon]

Just throwing this into the mix.... Just an unsupported thought is all...

What if your hit chance and the target's dodge chance are calculated together? Meaning; let's say I have a 125% hit chance and my target has a 50% dodge chance. Could it be calculated together as 125 - 50 = 75% chance to hit?... Just a random thought.

What say ye? ;-)

[Physiologic]

As there is currently no way to reach 100% dodge that I can think of but no way of knowing if there is a dodge cap, we can't make any conclusions yet :p

And I don't think dodge and hit are mixed together because of the distinction between a MISS that occurs on top of your head (meaning your own hit% failed) and a DODGE that occurs on top of the enemy's head (meaning that its dodge% succeeded).

[davidis57]

Don't your knees shake just standing next to him in game...lol joking

[Zeus]

As there is currently no way to reach 100% dodge that I can think of but no way of knowing if there is a dodge cap, we can't make any conclusions yet :p

And I don't think dodge and hit are mixed together because of the distinction between a MISS that occurs on top of your head (meaning your own hit% failed) and a DODGE that occurs on top of the enemy's head (meaning that its dodge% succeeded).

I wonder of the jeweled bow of evasion gives a dodge buff ;)