Why are Archers So Necessary for Bosses in Sewers???

[Duped]

Before you say the obvious, I know they are single target damage dealers, etc.

Why aren't dex bears better? They out deal dps, and I noticed my bird debuffs aren't better than my bear.

[Sky../]

Archer- blast shot, blinding shot, concentrate, break armor, thorn wall/root

Bear - rage, slashes, stomp

[Echelong]

Birds debuff are to deal damage to the target and bear debuffs are so the target doesn't deal damage to the group. Mages have both.

Birds debuff include reduce dodge, armor for the target and they stack. Plus they can take out shields on some bosses.

[Ellyidol]

Because of the archer's ability to reduce armour.

Based on Physiologic's guide :

Break Armor:
Lv 6: 15 mana, 5 sec. cool-down, 12m range
10 sec. debuff reduces armor 26 pts.

Shattering Scream:
Lv 6: 20 mana, 5.5 sec. cool-dow, 8m range
Reduce DMG -16, ARMOR -16

Thats 42 armour gone.

Following the impression that actual damage = player damage - enemy armour, -42 armour on a mob would mean +42 damage to each attack to every player in that group.

Bear's alone can't compare because of the armour debuff, but they can compare/beat birds in damage if there was a bird in the group.

[MITSUISUN]

And we bring higher pink drop rate when dying 3 times on fire :p

[FluffNStuff]

I have been pondering this, and it seems to do with ranged skill damage. Pure weapon wise, a dex bear will always do more damage then a bird because of rage, but a bird skills put its single target DPS extremely high. Take a look at skills and cool-down:
-note, this was done on level 51 with bagmans:
[307,331,6], Blast Shot + [190,225] for combo
[201,265,8], Avian Scream (since removed)
[190,225,6.25], Thorn Root
[220,260,5], Break Armor
[190,225,5],Shattering Scream
[231,250,7.5], Repulse Shot
[208,271,7], Blinding Shot
[220,260,11], Thorn Wall

I might go ahead and update these now for 55 with RR, but as you can see, birds are just pumping out a TON of damage.
[190,225,6],$

[Jinlac]

And we bring higher pink drop rate when dying 3 times on fire :p

No generalisation please! :D From your sig i suppose u actually do die a lot to crates^^

btt: Basically what elly said, birds debuffs do help a lot & stack. Oh, and they r cool ^.^

[Ellyidol]

Have to agree with Fluff too, they have crazy damage on EACH of their skills.

[KingFu]

Let's see....

Thorn root (debuff dodge and HS)
thorn wall (when used with thorn root debuffs 50 dodge and 48 HS)
blinding shot (debuffs hit%)
break armor (debuffs armor)
Shattering scream (debuffs armor and damage, and sets up cruel blast combo)
Blast shot (completes cruel blast combo for AMAZING damage)


Massive crit
Massive hit

Procs from bows like bleed proc, blinding proc, etc.



So.....better question is....why not??

[Moogerfooger]

Don't see it mentioned yet, so...

Thorn Root and Wall = setting up mages for Nature Strike, one of the most powerful mob-clearing and boss-whacking combos in the game.

Case closed.

[TofuGuy]

Don't see it mentioned yet, so...

Thorn Root and Wall = setting up mages for Nature Strike, one of the most powerful mob-clearing and boss-whacking combos in the game.

Case closed.

Heck Yeah!

[Arterra]

Why has no one said this???

Armor break STACKS. I don't think nightmare or hellscream stack. THAT IS WHY bird groups are so GOOD at bosses.

[Echelong]

Birds debuff include reduce dodge, armor for the target and they stack.


Why has no one said this???

Armor break STACKS. I don't think nightmare or hellscream stack. THAT IS WHY bird groups are so GOOD at bosses.

I did but I generalized. so maybe it doesn't count, although I am still learning the ways of the bird and still feel like a mage inside.

[FluffNStuff]

Bears can do 30 Points of armor reduction, 10 on Supa Mega Slash, 10 on Crushing Blow and 10 on Hell Scream, so i still believe the rapid firing of multiple high damage skills is what is giving the bird the boss killing ability. So will this change in 1.7.1? Guess we will find out.

[Ellyidol]

Bears can do 30 Points of armor reduction, 10 on Supa Mega Slash, 10 on Crushing Blow and 10 on Hell Scream, so i still believe the rapid firing of multiple high damage skills is what is giving the bird the boss killing ability. So will this change in 1.7.1? Guess we will find out.

I learn something new everyday, never knew that.

[Physiologic]

Combination of all things:
1. Insanely high damage of each maxed out archer skill
2. Ability of archer debuffs to stack with debuffs
3. Ability to create combo chains; Thorn Root + Lightning -> Shat Scream + Blast Shot -> Thorn Wall + Lightning (from another mage) is 3 combos that can be accomplished in one sweep

[Arterra]

May e it's more than armor reducing skills... Pure Dex bird = max power skills damage, max weapon damage, max crit and hit % possible.

The fact that they can spam armor reducing combos and skills doesn't hurt.

[braluk]

I've played with only Bear groups and we still clear maps like no other's businesses. Having said that, it's impossible to play Shadow caves without a bird.

[Duped]

Why has no one said this???

Armor break STACKS. I don't think nightmare or hellscream stack. THAT IS WHY bird groups are so GOOD at bosses.

I think that's a great argument, although with crushing blow, we reduce damage by 65 and hell scream debuff's dodge by 30%, I'm just trying to say bears aren't an obsolete!

The stacking armor break does add up much more. I just looked without the stack and thought it didn't look all that crazy.

Also, my question was an actual question. I'm no bird hater, so keep the comments civil please :)

[WhoIsThis]

Why has no one said this???

Armor break STACKS. I don't think nightmare or hellscream stack. THAT IS WHY bird groups are so GOOD at bosses.

Exactly. A target can only have one nightmare spell and perhaps one nightmare proc (only from darkbolt staffs) at a time. Break armor on the other hand ... when you consider the number of hits a target receives x the difference from break armors - it is huge.

[FluffNStuff]

I like turtles

[red]

i don't think its "live if u have a bird, die without" like some AO3 bosses, but i do think it goes alot faster, not as fast as some may say tho...

[Moogerfooger]

i don't think its "live if u have a bird, die without" like some AO3 bosses, but i do think it goes alot faster, not as fast as some may say tho...

Oh, it goes plenty fast as some may say, if the birds know what they are doing :p

But you're right...bosses can be done without a bird, just takes a little longer...Roach may be the only problem child, but I'm sure it can be done.

[Nightarcher]

Yeah, the big killer with archers is our debuffs.

With both roots, that's -50 dodge for just one bird. And we have extremely high hit%. So firstly we almost never miss.

As everyone has pointed out, our break armor stacks. That means almost all of our high damage gets through. So, we always hit and we do most of our full damage potential. Aka, death... portable version.

[Luchta]

our break armor stacks.

I know they don't. Any proof with this claim?

[shmoo]

Proof about stacking would be nice indeed. :)

I would still like it to be 1 bear, 2 pure dex birds, 1 pure int mage, 1 str/int mage as a good party mix.
You have a main tank (str/dex bear), an off-tank/semi-healer (str/int mage), 2 dps, 1 semi-healer/dps (the nuke mage).

Also the combos are really good against bosses especially Nature Strike. :D