Rogue 10% rebuff Nerf? More like 25%

[Theillist1]

I am getting more aggravated by the day about this nerf. I mean what is up with this? The first pic if u click on it is out of PvP. The second pic is in PvP. And the warrior pic is fully veng buffed.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/21/3ce8c147fe60b292b674a020dd386e47.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/21/b8d47c4d7e2a4171f080b79ce4c73b14.jpg

It looks to me like a 25% debuff not 10%. This is a fully geared 2+ para rogue. I add one para gem to a half geared warrior and BOOM he got 122.6 damage. I'm feeling like how am I supposed to have any fun if I'm being screwed out of fairneness.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/21/7ace33c9414b296d5ba72458a65323a1.jpg

Mind this warrior only has one para... And not fully gemmed.

I would love to hear some feedback from someone at STS. (DOUBTFULL). But my guess, lips are sealed until they can figure it out themselves.

[Hail]

Well you see, In town you are not only having your normal damage - but you are also gaining the amazing damage buff granted by Nightshades happiness bonus.
Sadly, in pvp maps not only do we have -10% dmg - it also cancels out nightshades happiness bonus.
Debuffs override buffs remember.
So the large difference of our damage in maps and in pvp are due to the debuff and the lack of our pets % dmg bonuses.
Example with no pet:
132948
132949

[Arrowz]

Nope its still a 10 percent debuff. If it was a 25 percent debuff your dmg would be closer to 65 in pvp

[Appeltjes]

You lose pet dmg in pvp

[Farminer's]

Wait you lose all pet DMG in PvP to o.o

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[GoodSyntax]

All % buffs are lost when a debuff of the same type is in affect (which is the 10% DMG debuff).

So, without the 17% DMG bonus from Nightshade, your damage is probably 87.4 (87.4 * 1.17 = 102.258 [102.3])

Effectively, you are getting a 10% debuff on your base DMG of 87.4, which results in 78.66 [78.7]

[Wazakesy]

the debuff overrides a buff in any case. Be it using the buff after youve been debuffed. So basically the -10% damage nerf in pvp affects your nightshades 17% dmg bonues, so it becomes a -17% dmg debuff. Basically you're loosing 17% of your damage.

[Farminer's]

I think if rogues have this big of a debuff I think warriors need a debuff they have become to strong and having more damage in PvP then us rogue.

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[Earlingstad]

I suggest compensating a rogue's loss of damage bonus from pet with HP and armor in pvp till they figure out how to fix this bug.

[Theillist1]

Let's stop NERFING people. How about we Give Mages a 5%-10% Damage boost or Health Buff in PvP. Or both. Of course this would need some testing =]

[Kriticality]

It should be scaled. I think the debuff is important at end game but for twinks, it's way too much. The biggest difference being the frequency of crits at end game. I have 751 dmg as a rogue in PVE but 588 in pvp, this is with Nekro. My crit is still 48% so 588 raw damage with crit is still very hard hit.

In the photos above, if they had say ~40% crit, the damage nerf would likely not matter as much. At 13% and 5% tho, no pet dmg plus a 10% nerf is too much. Not sure how the numbers would work out but maybe
LVL
1-11- 2.5%
12-21- 5%
22-31- 7.5%
32-41- 10%

It does suck for people in game that aren't on forums. Buy expensive damage pet for PVP. Look at stats in PVP. Rage. Throw phone. GG

[Appeltjes]

Lmao, rogues are weaker than tanks? Lol crit and damage gems have made rogues way better than tanks, the only thing they lack is mana at lower levels...

[Farminer's]

Rogues have lower damage then tanks at lower lvls it sucks we need a small debuff or pet bonus fixed please.

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[Litheus]

Try being a warrior at lv41 and farm elites....then u will know what being feels like

[Farminer's]

I have a 41 warrior.

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[Hail]

41 is not on topic... lower levels are so what is the use in bringing them into the coversation...

[Arrowz]

Rogues have lower damage then tanks at lower lvls it sucks we need a small debuff or pet bonus fixed please.

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Lolol. I play at 17-18 and rogues can crit for 1k plus. Can mages or warriors reach anything even near that? No. So how do rogues have lower damage? And rogues have had this debuff literally for YEARS. Since season 3. And they have been doin more than fine. Rogues are easily the strongest class at this lvl.

[Farminer's]

The debuff has been here for a little while not year's... It was put out after I joined and I just hit my 2 year mark. Also lvl 9 PvP warriors have higher damage yes lower crit ofc. I have done 750 crits on my rogue with maridos.

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[Hail]

The debuff has been here for a little while not year's... It was put out after I joined and I just hit my 2 year mark. Also lvl 9 PvP warriors have higher damage yes lower crit ofc. I have done 750 crits on my rogue with maridos.

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It has always been there, however when %dmg was not shown on the stats page - this was debuff was not visible. There was a bug in which it did not apply to tdm however that was fixed long ago.

[Farminer's]

Hmmm weird I never noticed it then thanks for info I always thought was fairly new.

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[Theillist1]

What I notice here is not many facta being shown. I got the pics at the top of this post. Look at soulcrusher and compare him to Ganku. Gankus is rocking top gear and an amzing pet. Soulcrusher is barely geared with just 1 para gem.. The difference in stats is STAGGERING!!

[Hail]

What I notice here is not many facta being shown. I got the pics at the top of this post. Look at soulcrusher and compare him to Ganku. Gankus is rocking top gear and an amzing pet. Soulcrusher is barely geared with just 1 para gem.. The difference in stats is STAGGERING!!

1) I explained to you in the very first post 2) That warrior is using buffs

[Theillist1]

You still can't den the fact that it isn't just a 10% debuff. Or are you just deflecting?

[Arrowz]

You still can't den the fact that it isn't just a 10% debuff. Or are you just deflecting?

It is a 10% debuff. No more, no less. If you wanna argue i'd be glad to show you the math again even though hail already did

[Theillist1]

Go right ahead. Waist your breathe. Warriors arnt getting any debuff at all. Rogues get 10% from base and their pet... That's more than 10%. I wouldn't argue this if warriors/mages got the 10% pet debuff too.

[Arrowz]

Go right ahead. Waist your breathe. Warriors arnt getting any debuff at all. Rogues get 10% from base and their pet... That's more than 10%. I wouldn't argue this if warriors/mages got the 10% pet debuff too.

They lose more than 10% of their dmg but its still only a 10% debuff. And do you wanna know why warriors and mages dont get debuffed? Cuz rogues still do twice as much dmg. No other class can hit nearly as hard as aimed shor. And guess what? Warriors even get a 5% buff in pvp. Stop conplaining about the most op class in the game

[Theillist1]

Look... Your the one trying to sweep it under the rug. The fact is... I am right. Close thread.

[Farminer's]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/dffd29487926d2665b73549522bf69a8.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/9673b91d9457eb825c1d5768aea02bdd.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/6b9c7a7b573b376a117f53729132cac4.jpg
I see no warrior debuff in PvP e.e...

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[Cray]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/dffd29487926d2665b73549522bf69a8.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/9673b91d9457eb825c1d5768aea02bdd.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/05/26/6b9c7a7b573b376a117f53729132cac4.jpg
I see no warrior debuff in PvP e.e...

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Its cause your pet gives +12% dmg.
Only the highest buff gets applied so the general (5% I guess?) dmg buff is not visible and overridden by the pet boost

[Imjebus]

So uhh....can sorcs get a buff or....? :hopelessness:

[Arrowz]

Look... Your the one trying to sweep it under the rug. The fact is... I am right. Close thread.

Lol no.. The fact is your wrong. Its a 10 percent debuff. No more, no less. Just because you lose more than 10% of ur dmg going from a town to pvp when you have a damage pet equipped doesnt mean the debuff is anymore than 10%. Learn how math works. And all these threads complaining about rogue dmg are absurd. Rogues still do far more damage than any other class even with the debuff applied. YOUR WRONG, rogues dont need debuff removed. Get over it. I played a rogue at lvl 17 for two years, rogues are definitely the strongest class.

[Theillist1]

-10% from pet + -10% for PvP is -20%... No matter how u look at it. Let's forget that Nightshade makes it -27%.

[Arrowz]

-10% from pet + -10% for PvP is -20%... No matter how u look at it. Let's forget that Nightshade makes it -27%.

Wrong lol. With nightshade ur dmg is essentially 117% of your base dmg. With a PVP DEBUFF OF 10 PERCENT your dmg is 90% of your base. (117-90)/117 = 23.07%. Your dmg decreases by 23% BUT ITS STILL ONLY A 10 PERCENT DEBUFF NOT 27 PERCENT. If it was a 27% debuff as you claim it to be then your dmg would decrease by 37.6%. Now stop making a fool out of yourself cuz your wrong. Its a 10% debuff. No more, no less.

[Theillist1]

SMH keep up the RAGE FIT

[Arrowz]

SMH keep up the RAGE FIT

Not raging at all. Pointing out your incompetence about a subject that everyone else on this thread understands except for you amuses me

[Theillist1]

I think you are to ashamed to admit there is more than just 1 debuff on the rogue. Your wordplay doesn't phase me.

[Otahaanak]

This made me laugh out loud. And I needed it. Thank you.

Oh, and it's 10% bud. Let it go. :)


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[Serillia]

Actually I can see a bit of his point. He's raging mainly because he's losing his pet's dmg % too. He doesnt understand that debuffs take precedent over buffs. Even a 1% debuff can override a 100% buff. Its the game mechanics. Its a bit unfair,yes, that we're losing our pet's dmg % too. But rogues are still the highest damage dealers in PvP. And adding pet's dmg % would just let them 1 hit everything in their path. That cannot happen for obvious reasons. So yes, if you're equipping a pet that gives dmg %, it appears you're losing more than 10% dmg but in reality, it is only 10% and since its a debuff the pet's dmg % is nullified.

Hope you understand and keep your posts polite for your own sake.

[Theillist1]

Maybe some people should just put down the game and go get a doctorate in ALanomic's. But finally someone sees my frustration.
Anyway. My philosophy is don't NERF. BUFF. You keep needing everything it destroys game ingenuity. Your taking AWAY from the fun. So, my only point for this whole thread was to point out that rogues are walking around with debuff that takes away from the enjoyment I signed up for.
Instead of NERFing the rogue, buff the other classes. Like mage. Para Gem solved the main issue of rogue vs warrior.

[Serillia]

Bear in mind this is a player who has been playing for a very long time (unless it's now someone else controlling the toon... in which case I have no comment). The damage adjustments were introduced early in the game to compensate for the disparity in damage between the classes. It needs no further repeating that rogues (and thus by extensions the OP) have been kept under this nerf in PvP for a long time. The situation only came to light when STG decided to finally fix the display glitch that had been present since the start of the game- where any damage buffs from pets/weapons/skills were not displayed on our stats page. Only then did our damage suddenly become an issue because people suddenly noticed the difference in damage when in PvP and when standing in towns. Soon after though I recall that Madnex and Kalizzaa (among others) worked out the buff/debuff mechanics of the game and presented it to the entire forum community via a very detailed post of statistics, field tests and number crunching supported by logical and clear explanation.

The work that Kali and Mad have done is the reason why many of the people who replied to this thread are able to explain the mechanics to the OP here without much fuss. And I believe that their explanations were more than clear enough. The posts took on an exasperated tone because it was apparent that the OP simply did not understand the repeated attempts to explain the buff/debuff mechanics and instead brushed them off rather callously.

It is fair to defend his rage at the apparently flawed mechanics of the game. However you should also note that he was less than kind to people who disagreed with his views and offered a contrary (and in my opinion, much more accurate) explanation- and they were initially very polite about it. I would instead advise the OP to more carefully consider the posts made here in response to his and not be too quick to jump to the conclusion that he is always right.

I agree. He is rude and he needs to stop doing that but he is very angry too. Even if the problem has a plausible explanation, still doesnt mean his anger will go away. And not everyone is capable of expressing their anger in a polite civil text message. To the OP, try to be polite and calm in your texts because then people will look at what you're saying carefully. Otherwise, it'll be just a source of amusement for everyone. Also, I cant fly :'(. Redbull lies!

[Arrowz]

Maybe some people should just put down the game and go get a doctorate in ALanomic's. But finally someone sees my frustration.
Anyway. My philosophy is don't NERF. BUFF. You keep needing everything it destroys game ingenuity. Your taking AWAY from the fun. So, my only point for this whole thread was to point out that rogues are walking around with debuff that takes away from the enjoyment I signed up for.
Instead of NERFing the rogue, buff the other classes. Like mage. Para Gem solved the main issue of rogue vs warrior.

Yes lets just keep buffing things. Whenever something is op lets buff everything else to be up to par. When elon bulwark was op it shouldnt have been nerfed. All other weapons shouldve been buffed to be just as OP. Nekro should get its original stats back aswell as keeping its current ability. Lets just give it 40% banish aswell why not. And to make things more fair lets buff warriors with 3-4k crits aswell. And why cant we use elixirs in pvp? Stop taking our buffs away. (Hint - that was sarcasm)

[Theillist1]

Arrowz , maybe we started on the wrong foot. You obviously know endgame! That's something Ive never done. I'm simply a Twink PvP player. If I want to do endgame I go play WoW or EQ. your point is well taken on over buffing everything. My issue here on the general scheme... Is well balance on all PvP tiers. Maybe you would see my POV if you had a lvl 8 too. There is a Gemming imbalance at this tier between 8-10. There's gear that u can't get at 8-9 (Tarlok) and gem quality that 9-10 gets that 8 doesnt. So yes, you have SOME valid points on the NERFING ENIGMA. The NERF to rogues is just icing on the cake.

[Arrowz]

Arrowz , maybe we started on the wrong foot. You obviously know endgame! That's something Ive never done. I'm simply a Twink PvP player. If I want to do endgame I go play WoW or EQ. your point is well taken on over buffing everything. My issue here on the general scheme... Is well balance on all PvP tiers. Maybe you would see my POV if you had a lvl 8 too. There is a Gemming imbalance at this tier between 8-10. There's gear that u can't get at 8-9 (Tarlok) and gem quality that 9-10 gets that 8 doesnt. So yes, you have SOME valid points on the NERFING ENIGMA. The NERF to rogues is just icing on the cake.

Completely wrong, I have never played endgame. i only play lvl 17-18. I simply use my brain and take into account that what affects twinks affects endgame aswell. And Rogues are easily the OP class at twink levels aswell. Instead of blaming your struglles on the dmg debuff maybe you should focus on getting better. I beat singe tanks using dova back when I had my rogue. And no duh there is a gemming imbalance. Gems get stronger at higher lvls. There is a gemming difference between lvl 16 and 17. It doesnt matter much anymore anyways because once jewels come out lvl 5-9 will be the same, lvl 10-14 will be the same, etc.

[Theillist1]

Lol my struggles? You are clearly misinformed. I do just fine. Now stop the rage. I try to ease your noob
rage by complimenting you and you go compete noob rage mode. Go cry somewhere else.

[Earlingstad]

Completely wrong, I have never played endgame. i only play lvl 17-18. I simply use my brain and take into account that what affects twinks affects endgame aswell. And Rogues are easily the OP class at twink levels aswell. Instead of blaming your struglles on the dmg debuff maybe you should focus on getting better. I beat singe tanks using dova back when I had my rogue. And no duh there is a gemming imbalance. Gems get stronger at higher lvls. There is a gemming difference between lvl 16 and 17. It doesnt matter much anymore anyways because once jewels come out lvl 5-9 will be the same, lvl 10-14 will be the same, etc.

I can understand what Theillist is saying. He might not have worded it well enough for some to understand but his issue not the number of the official debuff % as much as it is the difference of damage between the rogue and tank/mage in pvp at low levels. You are stating that the nerf is 10% and yes it is but the damage difference in pvp between a rogue and tank becomes for example, 27%, with NIGHTSHADE equipped. You are right, we all know that 10% is the nerf for dmg on rogues in pvp, which is fair but the game mechanics is flawed depriving rogues of pet dmg-buff and THIS is the issue. This flawed system makes it very hard for rogues to survive at twink levels because rogue twinks dont have the crit that endgamers do.

At lvl 17-18 most will not understand real twinking. Twinking actually means "low level" maxed players with ""limited"' skill/stat points. Low level and limited skill points are the key phrases here. Lvl 17--18 used to be endgame pvp in lvl 21 cap. So a lvl 17-18 rogue with enough skill points to max out passives and max out skills, cannot fairly judge the issue faced by the real twinks which range from lvl 8-13. ( Besides this, arrowz do you by any chance now play a lvl 13 tank? I think I came across a certain tank with your ign :P If so then I can understand the protest. )

'What affects endgame affects twinks as well' you said. No it does not. Endgame rogues kill in combos. At low levels, it is different. No rogue kills in combos unless its a naked mage. They die in combos though from para-fed OP tanks and that is precisely why the OP is being vocal about it.

10% dmg nerf had always been there, one might say - rogues have been nerfed since forever, why cry now?

1. It is because in the past - there were not many damage buffing pets around to tip the balance in favour of twink tanks. The 10% nerf is not the problem. It is the flawed game mechanics which deprives rogues of more damage than intended which becomes a problem at twinking levels.

2. In the past the gear was such that rogues needed the nerf, since tanks had no gear which buffed their dmg stats. Twink gear now gives the damage stats and mana to tank, does it not? Tanks can now use para gems and damage jewels also. So the current situation is not the same as in the past.

[epicrrr]

I can understand what Theillist is saying. He might not have worded it well enough for some to understand but his issue not the number of the official debuff % as much as it is the difference of damage between the rogue and tank/mage in pvp at low levels. You are stating that the nerf is 10% and yes it is but the damage difference in pvp between a rogue and tank becomes for example, 27%, with NIGHTSHADE equipped. You are right, we all know that 10% is the nerf for dmg on rogues in pvp, which is fair but the game mechanics is flawed depriving rogues of pet dmg-buff and THIS is the issue. This flawed system makes it very hard for rogues to survive at twink levels because rogue twinks dont have the crit that endgamers do.

At lvl 17-18 most will not understand real twinking. Twinking actually means "low level" maxed players with ""limited"' skill/stat points. Low level and limited skill points are the key phrases here. Lvl 17--18 used to be endgame pvp in lvl 21 cap. So a lvl 17-18 rogue with enough skill points to max out passives and max out skills, cannot fairly judge the issue faced by the real twinks which range from lvl 8-13. ( Besides this, the rumour is that arrowz you play a lvl 13 TANK now but idk if that rumour is true or if playing tank colours your opinion) :P

'What affects endgame affects twinks as well' you said. No it does not. Endgame rogues kill in combos. At low levels, it is different. No rogue kills in combos unless its a naked mage. They die in combos though from para-fed OP tanks and that is precisely why the OP is being vocal about it.

10% dmg nerf had always been there, one might say - rogues have been nerfed since forever, why cry now?

1. It is because in the past - there were not many damage buffing pets around to tip the balance in favour of twink tanks. The 10% nerf is not the problem. It is the flawed game mechanics which deprives rogues of more damage than intended which becomes a problem at twinking levels.

2. In the past the gear was such that rogues needed the nerf, since tanks had no gear which buffed their dmg stats. Twink gear now gives the damage stats and mana to tank, does it not? Tanks can now use para gems and damage jewels also. So the current situation is not the same as in the past.

Thanks God for amellanos amellana haha.

Say i have 143 dmg in town with singe in pvp i have 119 from what im seeing thats not just 10% debuff.

Anyhow I gave up on this issue long ago whatever the case. What bothers me is why STS continues to give us pets with damage bonus, that shouldve been replaced long ago.

[Arrowz]

I can understand what Theillist is saying. He might not have worded it well enough for some to understand but his issue not the number of the official debuff % as much as it is the difference of damage between the rogue and tank/mage in pvp at low levels. You are stating that the nerf is 10% and yes it is but the damage difference in pvp between a rogue and tank becomes for example, 27%, with NIGHTSHADE equipped. You are right, we all know that 10% is the nerf for dmg on rogues in pvp, which is fair but the game mechanics is flawed depriving rogues of pet dmg-buff and THIS is the issue. This flawed system makes it very hard for rogues to survive at twink levels because rogue twinks dont have the crit that endgamers do.

Very hard for rogues to survive at twinks lol. Thats why there are just as many rogues as warriors right? And rogues don't need the per dmg because THEY ALREADY DO TWICE AS MUCH DMG AS ANY OTHER CLASS. If rogues were given their pet dmg they would dominate all twink lvls and I can't even imagine endgame.

At lvl 17-18 most will not understand real twinking. Twinking actually means "low level" maxed players with ""limited"' skill/stat points. Low level and limited skill points are the key phrases here. Lvl 17--18 used to be endgame pvp in lvl 21 cap. So a lvl 17-18 rogue with enough skill points to max out passives and max out skills, cannot fairly judge the issue faced by the real twinks which range from lvl 8-13. ( Besides this, arrowz do you by any chance now play a lvl 13 tank? I think I came across a certain tank with your ign :P If so then I can understand the protest. )

Really so lvl 17-18 isnt twinking. Is lvl 15-16 real twinking? Its only the most populated bracket in the game. Are you gonna say 2 points makes a difference between real twinking and not? So your saying 1 point in nox, 1 point in pierce and 2 passive int counts as maxed skills and maxed passives? Lmao. Your funny. Not eveb close to maxed skills at this lvl. The only maxed skill any class used this lvl is aimed or curse and some have maxed venge but most are 4/5.

'What affects endgame affects twinks as well' you said. No it does not. Endgame rogues kill in combos. At low levels, it is different. No rogue kills in combos unless its a naked mage. They die in combos though from para-fed OP tanks and that is precisely why the OP is being vocal about it.

If your gonna quote me atleast use what I actually said. I said "what affects twinks affects endgame aswell". You can't give rogues pet dmg back so twink rogues are happy because this would destroy endgame pvp which is the most populated lvl of any and is probably where sts makes most of their money. Your simply writing off a big part of the player base just to low lvl twinks happy. And if a rogue is dying in one combo then they have terrible gear and that is a bigger issue than the pet dmg.

10% dmg nerf had always been there, one might say - rogues have been nerfed since forever, why cry now?

1. It is because in the past - there were not many damage buffing pets around to tip the balance in favour of twink tanks. The 10% nerf is not the problem. It is the flawed game mechanics which deprives rogues of more damage than intended which becomes a problem at twinking levels.

Samael and hammerjaw have been around literally for year. Rogues have had them literally for years.

2. In the past the gear was such that rogues needed the nerf, since tanks had no gear which buffed their dmg stats. Twink gear now gives the damage stats and mana to tank, does it not? Tanks can now use para gems and damage jewels also. So the current situation is not the same as in the past.

Rogues can use para gems too cant they? Rogues get dmg stats and mana too dont they? Stop throwing a pity party for the most overpowered class in the game.

My responses are in between your text. Enjoy

[Wazakesy]

Thanks God for amellanos amellana haha.

Say i have 143 dmg in town with singe in pvp i have 119 from what im seeing thats not just 10% debuff.

Anyhow I gave up on this issue long ago whatever the case. What bothers me is why STS continues to give us pets with damage bonus, that shouldve been replaced long ago.

A debuff always overrides the buff....The 12% from singe was overrided from the 10% debuff on pvp zones.

for short ->> ~10% debuff + 12% buff ->> 22% total debuff