Dex Mage Owns PVP

[Sigkill]

A Dex mage with raid roach set dominates PVP at lvl 55+. I'll post some tips on how to beat them later on in this thread

[Zeus]

I think I'm done PvP for a while. It is starting to get me mad how birds are completely neutered in PvP. There is nothing strategic about it. I spent 1.5 mil trying new outfits looking for possible ways. Even with SIXTY THREE DODGE, dex elf still crits through me. I don't want to have high blood pressure while I'm still a teenager.

Developers, Birds had dodge for defense, second highest armor rating, and then speed. Then you nerfed them so the dodge was given to bears and the armor was given to elfs. We still had speed though, so it was ok. THEN you took away our speed. How are we supposed to survive?

[Physiologic]

Cinco said something like how his "mage owns now and that his bird got nerfed" and I could only imagine he was talking about PvP. Expect some sort of rebalance in the near future. As for PvPing, I was going to start with my bird post-GCD but I am now deciding against it once more. Since youre one of the top PvPers I can only imagine your frustration Parth - pvp is still a long way until everything is balanced, even with GCD. That being said, this is why I dont pvp.

[Zeus]

Cinco said something like how his "mage owns now and that his bird got nerfed" and I could only imagine he was talking about PvP. Expect some sort of rebalance in the near future. As for PvPing, I was going to start with my bird post-GCD but I am now deciding against it once more. Since youre one of the top PvPers I can only imagine your frustration Parth - pvp is still a long way until everything is balanced, even with GCD. That being said, this is why I dont pvp.

Yea, in PvP now, since GCD. I become catty, agitated, and annoyed. Not like the usual me. Not going to take this out on fellow players yet anyways, so until they manage to come up for a reasonable solution for my neutered bird (quite literally), I'm not going to PvP. Except for the contest.

[Arterra]

Int bird fun no matter what happens :p

But yea lol at least the current timer makes pve possible for birds.

[DawnInfinity]

Yep. Dex mages definitely rock even more than before.

[Junside]

I know you can adapt around it with skillful timing and surrounding and probably do better than others - sometimes. I agree it's getting really difficult to fight with a bird in PVP. I don't have any advice for you because you do better than me in the majority of our fights. You'll find out something.

[Slush]

mages in general rock at pvp now. devs definetly need to implemnt a post-gcd rebalance

[XRAX]

I think I'm done PvP for a while. It is starting to get me mad how birds are completely neutered in PvP. There is nothing strategic about it. I spent 1.5 mil trying new outfits looking for possible ways. Even with SIXTY THREE DODGE, dex elf still crits through me. I don't want to have high blood pressure while I'm still a teenager.

Developers, Birds had dodge for defense, second highest armor rating, and then speed. Then you nerfed them so the dodge was given to bears and the armor was given to elfs. We still had speed though, so it was ok. THEN you took away our speed. How are we supposed to survive?

+99999

I agree. Although I can beat a Dex mage, it relies completely on luck. If this GCD is actually going to stay for PVP (><!!!!!!!) serious, serious work needs to be done to improve it. I already posted some ideas and feedbacks scattered somewhere within the threads, and have a lot more ideas. All in all, keep GCD for PVE, but remove it for PVP. It was perfectly balanced before and required no tampering.

[Ellyidol]

+99999

I agree. Although I can beat a Dex mage, it relies completely on luck. If this GCD is actually going to stay for PVP (><!!!!!!!) serious, serious work needs to be done to improve it. I already posted some ideas and feedbacks scattered somewhere within the threads, and have a lot more ideas. All in all, keep GCD for PVE, but remove it for PVP. It was perfectly balanced before and required no tampering.

Bears at times even rely completely on luck. :p

Miss beckon, that's pretty much it. Even against good birds like yourself, if my beckon hits, repulse me away will you? Lol

[XRAX]

Bears at times even rely completely on luck. :p

Miss beckon, that's pretty much it. Even against good birds like yourself, if my beckon hits, repulse me away will you? Lol

Lol very true. But thats why before GCD, you had the freedom to get back on your feet after an attack is missed or dodge. For example if I would miss my blast vs. a mage to bring down the shield, I would instantaneously Repulse shot + root until my skills recover and i catch my ground. For a bear, he could easily stomp + stun and then readjust himself. It wouldnt be the end of your life line if your attacks are dodged. The freedom to not be limited by a timer allows you to have more skill combination in general. It requires quicker mental processing, and definitely overall skill. Before i had maybe 5 different combos for different types of birds (some for dex bear), 4 for mage, 2 for warbird, 3 for pally, and 4 for bear. Just one of the many examples highlighting the richness and depth of PVP before. Now i have one combo for bird and dex bear, one for str bear and warbird, and one for mage, ZzZzZzZ. There is no more skill involved, lol.

[Falking]

does this mean that mages are OP and that birds dont really have a chance? and does dex mage matter whether wearing rr or mm?

[Ellyidol]

Lol very true. But thats why before GCD, you had the freedom to get back on your feet after an attack is missed or dodge. For example if I would miss my blast vs. a mage to bring down the shield, I would instantaneously Repulse shot + root until my skills recover and i catch my ground. For a bear, he could easily stomp + stun and then readjust himself. It wouldnt be the end of your life line if your attacks are dodged. The freedom to not be limited by a timer allows you to have more skill combination in general. It requires quicker mental processing, and definitely overall skill. Before i had maybe 5 different combos for different types of birds (some for dex bear), 4 for mage, 2 for warbird, 3 for pally, and 4 for bear. Just one of the many examples highlighting the richness and depth of PVP before. Now i have one combo for bird and dex bear, one for str bear and warbird, and one for mage, ZzZzZzZ. There is no more skill involved, lol.

That's true.

And wow that's a lot of combos! I generally just have one for birds, one for mages, one for bears. Lol

[Kindread]

Bears at times even rely completely on luck. :p

Miss beckon, that's pretty much it. Even against good birds like yourself, if my beckon hits, repulse me away will you? Lol

Hmm I don't get. Why wouldn't your defensive combos to buy time not work the same way anymore? Everyone is slowed down by the gcd, not just you. That small delay by gcd shouldnt change the effectiveness of your repulse root combo.


Lol very true. But thats why before GCD, you had the freedom to get back on your feet after an attack is missed or dodge. For example if I would miss my blast vs. a mage to bring down the shield, I would instantaneously Repulse shot + root until my skills recover and i catch my ground. For a bear, he could easily stomp + stun and then readjust himself. It wouldnt be the end of your life line if your attacks are dodged. The freedom to not be limited by a timer allows you to have more skill combination in general. It requires quicker mental processing, and definitely overall skill. Before i had maybe 5 different combos for different types of birds (some for dex bear), 4 for mage, 2 for warbird, 3 for pally, and 4 for bear. Just one of the many examples highlighting the richness and depth of PVP before. Now i have one combo for bird and dex bear, one for str bear and warbird, and one for mage, ZzZzZzZ. There is no more skill involved, lol.

[Zeus]

Hmm I don't get. Why wouldn't your defensive combos to buy time not work the same way anymore? Everyone is slowed down by the gcd, not just you. That small delay by gcd shouldnt change the effectiveness of your repulse root combo.

The answer to this? Elf's spells had a delay cast time already. With GCD, this is negated, because the cast time on their spells when it is activated coincides with the GCD, thus giving them the exact same speed as us birds, but with A LOT more deadly power. This is why elf's are now overpowered.

For example, Drain life after it is cast, takes about 1 second to activate. This is negated during the cooldown period due to the GCD

[XRAX]

Hmm I don't get. Why wouldn't your defensive combos to buy time not work the same way anymore? Everyone is slowed down by the gcd, not just you. That small delay by gcd shouldnt change the effectiveness of your repulse root combo.

Of course it does. The only way it would work is if you are at a close enough distance. Other wise, if the opponent is a certain number of meters away, he or she would be repulsed and potentially out of range for root to connect once the global skill cool down is done ticking. Clearly, this applies to the stomp + stun slash effect as well. The "small" delay proves to be significant in many instances.
In addition, my argument is not limited solely to defensive combos, but it was a good example to use.
In terms of the point you made that GCD is being slowed down for everyone, this is true, but some classes benefit more than others. Just ONE example with the issue of balance is the following scenario. Ive never seen you in the arena, but you seem like a bird guy and ill assume you have a bird. So consider a 1v1 head on situation between a dex bird and a dex mage. What makes dex mages optimal is their high hit% and of course their ability to put up a shield (i.e. effectively a stall factor). A mage sporting a shield needs 3 skills minimum (unless you have a freakish crit) to kill (factoring in auto attack and external factors like dodge). A dex mage with a mana shield up will require a blast shot from the bird to bring down the shield and then at least 2 extra skills. A bird on the other hand requires ONLY two skills from a dex mage to die. By the time a bird brings down the shield and sends one arrow to connect, you are most likely dead unless you invest in dodge and pray probability is on your side, which is the only effective way there is so far given the limitations set by the current cool down timer.

Just to add:



The answer to this? Elf's spells had a delay cast time already. With GCD, this is negated, because the cast time on their spells when it is activated coincides with the GCD, thus giving them the exact same speed as us birds, but with A LOT more deadly power. This is why elf's are now overpowered.

For example, Drain life after it is cast, takes about 1 second to activate. This is negated during the cooldown period due to the GCD

Good point put forth by Parth. It adds to the latter point of my explanation of why it is easy for mages to kill their opponents.

[Ellyidol]

Hmm I don't get. Why wouldn't your defensive combos to buy time not work the same way anymore? Everyone is slowed down by the gcd, not just you. That small delay by gcd shouldnt change the effectiveness of your repulse root combo.

To me or Rax? :p

GCD definitely helped bears survive longer, yay there.

My one concern is that most of the time (especially since they've introduce the Beckon Stomp combo) our killing move is that combo. It is also our only tool vs ranged opponents, other than dodge and avoiding their spells. So when that misses, as a bear, your given a choice to either kite back until it coolsdown, or charge in with the hopes of your Hell Scream (next ranged skill, with semi stun) being in range AND hitting him (Hit % issue).

Bears are almost only deadly or useful within melee range (not bow/int bears), and with Beckon being our only skill that actually brings them within range, if that misses, there's nothing much we can do afterwards other than the two choices above.

And range is right, the small delay of Drain practically disappeared with GCD, nothing's new there since it already had that delay anyway. To actually account for that delay with GCD, it should be GCD + delay of Drain.

I'm not complaining or anything here, just stating some of the imbalances I've noticed :)

[Seminole]

I no get because before bird kill mage very easy. Now bird no kill mage easy and everyone mad? Now it even I kill mage and I die by mage so you do something wrong if no can kill mage. Only because a mage kill you now you mad? No you kill them too and you dodge them by Drainer or new gear bonus and now big chance dodge and kill very easy!! You try drainer first then when get good you custom watch how die but you die sometime too so now very fair!

[noneo]

Here are the stats if anyone wants to compare
I used a champion's ring as well

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/6609/statcompare.png

*DPS might be a slight bit off

[Ellyidol]

Hey neo, mind if I ask for the figures of Drain Life and the single-target frost skill damages between both dex and int? :)

[Kindread]

Of course it does. The only way it would work is if you are at a close enough distance. Other wise, if the opponent is a certain number of meters away, he or she would be repulsed and potentially out of range for root to connect once the global skill cool down is done ticking. Clearly, this applies to the stomp + stun slash effect as well. The "small" delay proves to be significant in many instances.
In addition, my argument is not limited solely to defensive combos, but it was a good example to use.
In terms of the point you made that GCD is being slowed down for everyone, this is true, but some classes benefit more than others. Just ONE example with the issue of balance is the following scenario. Ive never seen you in the arena, but you seem like a bird guy and ill assume you have a bird. So consider a 1v1 head on situation between a dex bird and a dex mage. What makes dex mages optimal is their high hit% and of course their ability to put up a shield (i.e. effectively a stall factor). A mage sporting a shield needs 3 skills minimum (unless you have a freakish crit) to kill (factoring in auto attack and external factors like dodge). A dex mage with a mana shield up will require a blast shot from the bird to bring down the shield and then at least 2 extra skills. A bird on the other hand requires ONLY two skills from a dex mage to die. By the time a bird brings down the shield and sends one arrow to connect, you are most likely dead unless you invest in dodge and pray probability is on your side, which is the only effective way there is so far given the limitations set by the current cool down timer.

Just to add:




Good point put forth by Parth. It adds to the latter point of my explanation of why it is easy for mages to kill their opponents.

Good points. To be honest, I PvPed in every MMO and text MUD game I've ever played. It was actually part of the criteria when I evaluated games to play whether the PvP element was there or not. PL is the first MMO that I've played where I had no desire to PvP at all and this was because the lack of a GCD. I discovered this as a noob when i first ran into trouble with a bad draw and was surrounded by mobs. I spammed all my skills and they actually all fired which immediately made me think, WTH, I can do this in PVP?

So I found the forums and researched how PvP works in PL and saw complaints about multi-touching and spamming skills and so forth and I just never pursued it after that. When I hit the level cap at 50 and I became pre-occupied with farming end game gear, I never got bored with PL. Then Shadow Caves came out and kept me entertained. Then level cap raise and BS. Now, after hitting the level cap, obtaining all the end game gear and having way more gold that I can even hope to spend, I'm starting to get bored with farming and am looking towards PvP.

I was actually looking forward to the GCD release. Maybe I had the wrong impression of what PvP was prior to GCD. My impression was that everyone made their own special combo they believed was the secret technique to killing x class and then they would get in range of each other and BOOM, everyone would launch into their almost instantaneous (or in the case of multi-touchers, instantaneous) combos and after the smoke clears, there would be a winner. Not having ever witnessed a PL PvP duel, I didn't think this would be all that fulfilling for me.

But after work today, I'll be back home on my Wi-Fi and trying my first PL PvP games. I wonder who's going to be the first to break in this virgin PvPer. Also, I wonder who's going to be the first to get angry and call me a noob. LOL

[noneo]

Hey neo, mind if I ask for the figures of Drain Life and the single-target frost skill damages between both dex and int? :)

I don't have the set of Raid. I just plugged it into my calc. I CAN give you the stats on the MM set for Drain and Frost though.

I'll do it now.

Also, if someone could lend me the set of Raid, i can get you those stats as well.

EDIT:
MEGA MAGE WAND SET:
Drain life: 300-444 (without buffs )331-475 (Buffed)
Frostbite: 237-292 (without buffs) 368-323 (Buffed)
Lightning: 257-388 (without buffs) 388-419 (Buffed)
Firestorm: 270-383 (without buffs) 301-415 (Buffed)

MEGA MAGE STAFF SET:
Drain life: 343-484 (without buffs) 374-515 (Buffed)
Frostbite: 281-334 (without buffs) 312-365 (Buffed)
Lightning: 301-429 (without buffs) 332-460 (Buffed)
Firestorm: 313-424 (without buffs) 344-455 (Buffed)

[Ellyidol]

I don't have the set of Raid. I just plugged it into my calc. I CAN give you the stats on the MM set for Drain and Frost though.

I'll do it now.

Also, if someone could lend me the set of Raid, i can get you those stats as well.

Ah it's np, assumed you got stats from using the set, forgot about calculating :p sorry for the bother!

[noneo]

Updated my post with MM values. Once I find a friend with Raid, I'll get you the numbers :)

[Ellyidol]

Gah look at that. Let's say on a dex Mage that turns to 400 max buffed?

That 400 crit, two auto-bow attack crit, one single-target frost crit, and one fireblast crit. I dont think even my bear can get through that, fully buffed. Unless dodged of course.

[Moogerfooger]

Gah look at that. Let's say on a dex Mage that turns to 400 max buffed?

That 400 crit, two auto-bow attack crit, one single-target frost crit, and one fireblast crit. I dont think even my bear can get through that, fully buffed. Unless dodged of course.

Might just run into a certain dex mage rocking Custom, Elly :p may be giving PvP a solid try finally.

[skimmey]

Funny right lol I experienced several one auto drain k o .s

[noneo]

also keep in mind that I used the talen iset for the comparison. using a bow set will lead to a higher base damage, which leads to higher skill damage.

I will remake the comparison using a mega mage staff set and bow set

[Seminole]

Gah look at that. Let's say on a dex Mage that turns to 400 max buffed?

That 400 crit, two auto-bow attack crit, one single-target frost crit, and one fireblast crit. I dont think even my bear can get through that, fully buffed. Unless dodged of course.

My Bird crit 300-400 np blast shot. Life Drain is one sec wait. So with .25 skill cool you hit with 3-5 skills before take effect because one skill in begin(blast) and then the .25 skill wait=2-3time you hit mage. Bird kill mage easy with 1-3 skill and auto plus bird have dodge so esp if dodge it bye bye mage.

Bear hit mage beckon stomp and all mage mana gone so mage only auto. Very fair very easy just try best, also bear dodge always mage no dodge so bye bye mana on mage

[Moogerfooger]

Bird kill mage easy with 1-3 skill and auto plus bird have dodge so esp if dodge it bye bye mage.


Pretty funny, because my dex mage just owned a bunch of birds and I am not that good at PvP as far as experience.

[Zeus]

Pretty funny, because my dex mage just owned a bunch of birds and I am not that good at PvP as far as experience.

Do you see what I mean Moog? It's ridiculous.

[Adapts]

and thus the vicious cycle of FOTM classes in mmo continues...

wanna bet if there is "rebalance" it will affect pve as well?

[Moogerfooger]

Do you see what I mean Moog? It's ridiculous.

Yeah....I mean I personally enjoyed it :p but with the Custom Recuve set on Brutalityz, I basically buffed approaching tgt, then Auto > Drain Life > whatever....if they didn't dodge the Drain, the crit Auto and Drain KO'd instantly pretty much.

Bears were a little tougher and a Bow Bear whupped me once one on one, and another managed to catch me as buffs ran out and beckoned/stomped me halfway across the map, but you know when I am the kill leader in two matches and go 17 kills, 5 deaths as a dex mage PvP noob, something is definitely different. I mean, I have some mage and archer skills, but a rookie at PvP.

[Zeus]

Yeah....I mean I personally enjoyed it :p but with the Custom Recuve set on Brutalityz, I basically buffed approaching tgt, then Auto > Drain Life > whatever....if they didn't dodge the Drain, the crit Auto and Drain KO'd instantly pretty much.

Bears were a little tougher and a Bow Bear whupped me once one on one, and another managed to catch me as buffs ran out and beckoned/stomped me halfway across the map, but you know when I am the kill leader in two matches and go 17 kills, 5 deaths as a dex mage PvP noob, something is definitely different. I mean, I have some mage and archer skills, but a rookie at PvP.

Nah Moog, It's just that you are a Pimp. :)

[Seminole]

Pretty funny, because my dex mage just owned a bunch of birds and I am not that good at PvP as far as experience.

Okay face in-game and I show you how. I be on tonight and I message you. I will show you it fair fight. Honest I will have advantage. Many bird mad now because no kill mages easy nomore. It really fair now and I show you when I fight you just take skill

[Moogerfooger]

Okay face in-game and I show you how. I be on tonight and I message you. I will show you it fair fight. Honest I will have advantage. Many bird mad now because no kill mages easy nomore. It really fair now and I show you when I fight you just take skill

I don't PvP very much so beating me isn't going to prove anything....I have no doubt you have more PvP skill than me. But if you get unlucky and don't dodge the Drain from a buffed dex mage, it's over from what I can tell.

I was just trying to point out that a rookie PvPer can do too much killing as a dex mage with good dex gear.

[Seminole]

I don't PvP very much so beating me isn't going to prove anything....I have no doubt you have more PvP skill than me. But if you get unlucky and don't dodge the Drain from a buffed dex mage, it's over from what I can tell.

I was just trying to point out that a rookie PvPer can do too much killing as a dex mage with good dex gear.

Just so know with GCD everbody same. Nomore noob nomore best player. So no matter how long play all i try to say is everything base on luck now. It very fair but very not fun to me

[Zeus]

Just so know with GCD everbody same. Nomore noob nomore best player. So no matter how long play all i try to say is everything base on luck now. It very fair but very not fun to me

Not true. You must have missed my point entirely. Elf's have the strongest spells of all characters. The downside to this however is that their spells had a delayed cast time (PRE GCD), now with GCD the cast time is hidden because by the time their cooldown is activated again, the spell has hit. Thus putting them on the same speed with much more powerful spells.

[Seminole]

Not true. You must have missed my point entirely. Elf's have the strongest spells of all characters. The downside to this however is that their spells had a delayed cast time (PRE GCD), now with GCD the cast time is hidden because by the time their cooldown is activated again, the spell has hit. Thus putting them on the same speed with much more powerful spells.

Okay but look like i say earlier, Drain 1 sec wait, frost 1 sec wait, light 1 sec wait. So you still use 3-4 skill plus auto GCD only .25 sec wait. You kill very easy with 1-3skill plus auto and dodge. Mage no have no dodge it guarntee hit almost always. Also if you dodge you win no matter what happen. If have trouble still then drainer, then when get good use custom like me. You win often but u lose too that what suppose happen.

Before mage sooo easy to kill. Now mage harder but it very fair i do it you do it too.

[XRAX]

@ Moogerfooger. Your posts are very honest and you have made some critical points.

@ seminole Your arguments are very theoretical based and you seem to be missing the point. Im on break from work so can only bring up one point. PvP is about competition. There will be "noobs" and there will be "best players." What is the driving force behind competition? Clearly for one, it is to be the best. Pvp should demand practice, and experience should be indicative of skills and performance in the arena. Some learn quicker than others, but the bottom line is that a learning curve should always be present. Before GCD, a players experience and skills separated a pro from an amateur. Post-GCD PvP is 95% luck and 5% "skill."

[Seminole]

@ Moogerfooger. Your posts are very honest and you have made some critical points.

@ seminole Your arguments are very theoretical based and you seem to be missing the point. Im on break from work so can only bring up one point. PvP is about competition. There will be "noobs" and there will be "best players." What is the driving force behind competition? Clearly for one, it is to be the best. Pvp should demand practice, and experience should be indicative of skills and performance in the arena. Some learn quicker than others, but the bottom line is that a learning curve should always be present. Before GCD, a players experience and skills separated a pro from an amateur. Post-GCD PvP is 95% luck and 5% "skill."

xray agree I no like GCD but just want to say bird kill mage and mage kill bird. I want GCD gone. Now GCD take no skill all is luck now. That all I try say, you no agree? read post i say before all luck, mage not overpowered now it all base on luck!! sorry for bad english maybe why you no understand me read post 37 okay.

[Moogerfooger]

xray agree I no like GCD but just want to say bird kill mage and mage kill bird. I want GCD gone. Now GCD take no skill all is luck now. That all I try say, you no agree?

It still takes some skill to time things right and know what skills to use. Period. It is not all luck. Period.

[romgar1]

It may be true atm that dexchants are the dominant ones stat wise. However, I recall seeing skimmey and two other pure archers breeze past ladylove despite her effort to fight for her number 2 spot. That was due both to their talent and the over powered gear from the bs gear at the time. You have a valid point, but be patient. Cinco actually loves to pvp enough that he has continued to get it balanced. I still remember talking to cherrykim ladylove and dawninfinity before the gdc update and they were as frustrated as you are now. Birds had a good run now almost solely own the top 5 spots on pvp. I have faith in the Devs to fix this problem in time.

[XRAX]

xray agree I no like GCD but just want to say bird kill mage and mage kill bird. I want GCD gone. Now GCD take no skill all is luck now. That all I try say, you no agree? read post i say before all luck, mage not overpowered now it all base on luck!! sorry for bad english maybe why you no understand me read post 37 okay.

I certainly agree with what you are saying and your English is great :). However, you keep mentioning that NOW birds kill mage and mage kill bird. Before GCD, I knew of a handful of pro Pure mages that were a serious threat to birds. Just to list a few pures were Imperialelf, Kellylita, and Jjjlove. When they were in the arenas, most people were aware of their dominant presence. I know this because I had my fair share of deaths from them. Now, their performance is not significantly different from another player that has been around for just one day one day.



It still takes some skill to time things right and know what skills to use. Period. It is not all luck. Period.

You are right that it still takes some "skill", but the large majority of outcomes filter down to external factors.

[joeychandler]

It may be true atm that dexchants are the dominant ones stat wise. However, I recall seeing skimmey and two other pure archers breeze past ladylove despite her effort to fight for her number 2 spot. That was due both to their talent and the over powered gear from the bs gear at the time. You have a valid point, but be patient. Cinco actually loves to pvp enough that he has continued to get it balanced. I still remember talking to cherrykim ladylove and dawninfinity before the gdc update and they were as frustrated as you are now. Birds had a good run now almost solely own the top 5 spots on pvp. I have faith in the Devs to fix this problem in time.

High kills doesn't = high skill. Being high ranked on leaderboards is more down to how much time you spend on PvP. E.G Kayumanggi can spend 24 7 farming kills and get on leaderboards, but hes straight up bad at 1v1

[Kossi]

High kills doesn't = high skill. Being high ranked on leaderboards is more down to how much time you spend on PvP. E.G Kayumanggi can spend 24 7 farming kills and get on leaderboards, but hes straight up bad at 1v1

exactly. shawnk says hes the best twink because he has a level 23 with about 17k kills
i went on my lv21 bear and beat him 10-4. he had 1k kills at the time.

its about how godo you are at 1 v 1
for example, i can say without hesitation my lv30 is the best out there
i have never let anyone beat me (in a first to 1 or first to 3; first to 10 pvp 1v1's)

from my experience, i can say the best 30's are...

ALL CURRENT

elfs:
antifas
greeek
resurgence

bears:
udiemorenoob
zneryz
imperialsoul

birds:
tictactoe

lv30's, alot of them with more kills than me, but i was able to beat them all.

[XRAX]

@kossi and joeychandler. This is true imo. The only thing the leaderboards can tell you at most is which player has a lot of experience, and ideally this should be tightly correlated with a players skill. But really, a player with 5k kills can easily be as skilled as a player with 10k or 20k kills. The leaderboard does not give details as to how you got those kills or how you earned your experience. For all we know a player on the leaderboards may be spending the majority of his or her time noob nuking.

[Nightarcher]

As of now, my opinion on the commonly-used classes in pvp:

1. Archers- Good balance, hit hard and can use drainers for dodge. Low armor. Not op.

2. Warbirds- Do surprisingly well, and have good armor. These are balanced too.

3. Tanks- They have terrible damage output, but have great armor. Need some more damage to be worth the survivability.

4. Bowbears- Effective and quite deadly, but their lower armor balances it out.

5. Mages- Pretty balanced, but with them possessing mana shield and high armor while being able to nuke excellently and crit through dodge fairly well, they could use a little toning down.

6. Paladins- Good at tanking but their lower damage evens the build up, even with biased fury gear. ;)

7. Dexchantresses!!!- As mentioned in this thread, they are the most powerful and lethal class now. The possession of mana shield giving temporary invincibilty, plus their uncanny ability to hit nuke through armor and dodge every time, equals death, portable version. They need some type of Nerf.

[Moogerfooger]

As of now, my opinion on the commonly-used classes in pvp:

1. Archers- Good balance, hit hard and can use drainers for dodge. Low armor. Not op.

2. Warbirds- Do surprisingly well, and have good armor. These are balanced too.

3. Tanks- They have terrible damage output, but have great armor. Need some more damage to be worth the survivability.

4. Bowbears- Effective and quite deadly, but their lower armor balances it out.

5. Mages- Pretty balanced, but with them possessing mana shield and high armor while being able to nuke excellently and crit through dodge fairly well, they could use a little toning down.

6. Paladins- Good at tanking but their lower damage evens the build up, even with biased fury gear. ;)

7. Dexchantresses!!!- As mentioned in this thread, they are the most powerful and lethal class now. The possession of mana shield giving temporary invincibilty, plus their uncanny ability to hit nuke through armor and dodge every time, equals death, portable version. They need some type of Nerf.

I have heard from a reliable source that warbirds got nerfed badly by the latest patches, but I am no expert.

Thank you for getting the thread back on track, somehow it devolved into bragging about who the best PvPers were.

And Xrax, excellent posts but how is this update's "external factors" any different? Before you had external factors like multi-touching, which swung things unfairly in the corner of birds generally speaking. There is a lot of grumbling (and I am not saying it isn't entirely warranted) from birds who have gotten used to being generally beasts in PvP. And I say that as being a bird at heart, and it is my favorite character by far and I believe it is the best pure class out there, regardless of arguments for other classes :p

Balance will come, I have no doubt. Hopefully, that is.

[Seminole]

well best way to fix is get rid of GCD then everything be fair!! I fight mages too before but only two win(Kellylita, JJlove). So it happen for mage just need know how.

[Moogerfooger]

well best way to fix is get rid of GCD then everything be fair!! I fight mages too before but only two win(Kellylita, JJlove). So it happen for mage just need know how.

GCD is NOT going away. The devs love the concept. It wasn't fair before, because it allowed for people with iPads to multitouch.

[XRAX]

I have heard from a reliable source that warbirds got nerfed badly by the latest patches, but I am no expert.

Thank you for getting the thread back on track, somehow it devolved into bragging about who the best PvPers were.

And Xrax, excellent posts but how is this update's "external factors" any different? Before you had external factors like multi-touching, which swung things unfairly in the corner of birds generally speaking. There is a lot of grumbling (and I am not saying it isn't entirely warranted) from birds who have gotten used to being generally beasts in PvP. And I say that as being a bird at heart, and it is my favorite character by far and I believe it is the best pure class out there, regardless of arguments for other classes :p

Balance will come, I have no doubt. Hopefully, that is.

That's the thing though. I use a cell phone. I never multi-touched before, yet I had NO problem beating anyone who multi-touches, and I personally knew of a few others that I no problem either. To be honest, multitouching was worthless anyway. Every single skill across all characters has at least a minimum amount of time in order for the effect of the skill to kick in..including the arrows of a bird (even if the effect time to kick in is short, it is still more effective for example to break THEN blast in quick succession, rather than break+blast at the same time).
In terms of the external factors I metioned, you are right, they did exist before just like they do now. However, they did not necessarily determine the outcome of a win before as much as they do now. For instance, to counter dodge, QUICKLY lay down your roots and fire your arrows. Problem solved. Either way, this is just one of the many issues I have experienced so far.
Lastly about birds generally being the kings of the arena: although it may have appeared this way, it certainly was not the case in the sense that you mentioned it imo. It may have seemed like this to many, but one of the main reasons for this was simply due to a much larger bird PvP population size than any other class. Say you have 50 birds to 10 bears. Let's assume as well that overtime that only 10% of birds and 10% of bears become top players from the commitment they invested. At a larger number scale this would give you the illusion that birds are dominating the pvp scene (5:1, 50:10...). Overall, a good bear vs a good bird had an equal chance of winning. This applied to ANY character class vs another, including a good bird vs a good mage.

[Moogerfooger]

That's the thing though. I use a cell phone. I never multi-touched before, yet I had NO problem beating anyone who multi-touches, and I personally knew of a few others that I no problem either. To be honest, multitouching was worthless anyway. Every single skill across all characters has at least a minimum amount of time in order for the effect of the skill to kick in..including the arrows of a bird (even if the effect time to kick in is short, it is still more effective for example to break THEN blast in quick succession, rather than break+blast at the same time).
In terms of the external factors I metioned, you are right, they did exist before just like they do now. However, they did not necessarily determine the outcome of a win before as much as they do now. For instance, to counter dodge, QUICKLY lay down your roots and fire your arrows. Problem solved. Either way, this is just one of the many issues I have experienced so far.
Lastly about birds generally being the kings of the arena: although it may have appeared this way, it certainly was not the case in the sense that you mentioned it imo. It may have seemed like this to many, but one of the main reasons for this was simply due to a much larger bird PvP population size than any other class. Say you have 50 birds to 10 bears. Let's assume as well that overtime that only 10% of birds and 10% of bears become top players from the commitment they invested. At a larger number scale this would give you the illusion that birds are dominating the pvp scene (5:1, 50:10...). Overall, a good bear vs a good bird had an equal chance of winning. This applied to ANY character class vs another, including a good bird vs a good mage.

Well, all I will say that as someone that never played PvP before because it seemed an unlevel playing field (just an opinion), this makes it seem more fair across the classes - in general - although the dex mage build is apparently overpowered as previously talked about. Birds may be at a disadvantage to a dex mage's combo right now, but the dex mage skills do still take longer to kick in (and I can verify this) than the birds, so I can also say that if a bird gets pwned by a dex mage, well a lot of it still falls on the bird for not being fast enough on the draw and they deserve it in some ways. So in the end, build advantages seem to be/could be said to be offset by skill firing-after-button-press times.

On one hand, people such as yourself who are vets of PvP have to deal with GCD and generally speaking despise it, but people like me who have never done it much (for various reasons) now would be more likely to try it, and a lot of us veteran/high-skill PvE players are venturing into PvP to try it out. Although the GCD may suck for the vets, as a whole the devs want more ppl involved in PvP and this is the way the currently have to do it.

GCD is not going away, so we just have to get used to it.

[XRAX]

Well, all I will say that as someone that never played PvP before because it seemed an unlevel playing field (just an opinion), this makes it seem more fair across the classes - in general - although the dex mage build is apparently overpowered as previously talked about. Birds may be at a disadvantage to a dex mage's combo right now, but the dex mage skills do still take longer to kick in (and I can verify this) than the birds, so I can also say that if a bird gets pwned by a dex mage, well a lot of it still falls on the bird for not being fast enough on the draw and they deserve it in some ways. So in the end, build advantages seem to be/could be said to be offset by skill firing-after-button-press times.

On one hand, people such as yourself who are vets of PvP have to deal with GCD and generally speaking despise it, but people like me who have never done it much (for various reasons) now would be more likely to try it, and a lot of us veteran/high-skill PvE players are venturing into PvP to try it out. Although the GCD may suck for the vets, as a whole the devs want more ppl involved in PvP and this is the way the currently have to do it.

GCD is not going away, so we just have to get used to it.

Again, nice posts, and I respect your opinions.

Although it May be true that more new players feel inclined to try PvP out now, you are also losing many players. Also, they players who have been involved in PvP before, were absolutely addicted to it. I LOVE the idea of increasing the appeal for new players to join, but it is not fun enough to keep people hooked like before. Before GCD there were always ALWAYS PvP games going on at any time. A few days after GCD implementation, the PvP scene has literally been missing. Many times lately there has not even been ONE game going on. I would even create a game and sit for minutes on end with no one joining. The veterans are gone (or have taken a vacation), and the newcomers are getting bored.

Even though it seems like GCD may not be going anywhere, and the devs like it, I will not rule out anything, inluding the possibility of removing GCD or making it ONLY so that pressing two skills at once isn't possible (the original motivated intention). As we have seen, nothing is meant to stay, and anything could happen :).

[Moogerfooger]

I would be willing to bet a whole lot of real money that GCD is not going away, despite many people's wishes. I am not a fan of GCD in general....in PvE it hinders my play style (fast skill combos) significantly, and although it is livable in its current state, I still wish it wasn't there. Cinco has repeatedly said it is necessary in their view, and although you have valid points, I don't see it going away despite the outcry from the vet PvP community or the higher-skilled PvE community. At least the current version is ten-fold better than that first day of cooldown hell.

In the immortal words of Clint Eastwood in "Heartbreak Ridge": Adapt, Improvise, Overcome.

[Nightarcher]

Those are some big posts. Wow. I'm not gunna bother to read them.

But I actually enjoy GCD a lot and after playing pve awhile, it doesn't seem that bad there either. Pvp is now what it should've been all along, minus a slight Mage-skill-overpowering that could use a tweak. I now don't have to worry about being slower at spamming than others: I have to be more strategic. Which is good. :)

[Ellyidol]

Those are birds vs mages, don't forget us bears! :(

From what I've noticed (and I'm not pro in pvp at all), it's the range we bears cannot face.

Like I said earlier, Drain, Auto attack, Frost, and Fireblast - we pretty much have to take vs our one beckon. What's worse, if that misses, well, the end.

I have to say though, given a bear vs a Mage/bird, it will initially rely on skill; knowing your skill range, etc. But also given that a bear vs a Mage/bird have the same amount of skill (and some birds/mages out there are wicked good, like the ones in this thread), bears are already at a disadvantage even with equal skill.

Sure, high dodge/armor. But what can a bird/mage do against that. Mages (dex that is) = 100 crit minimum, and from what I've experienced, crit seems to go through easier than Hit. So our dodge is useless, and armor is overrated since crits = double damage. Birds, catch one with beckon and a quick one will repulse you instantly. Not to mention the even better ones debuff your Hit before you can cast beckon, that's -25% if im not mistaken? But miss your beckon, and you're double rooted.

These are just my opinions where I've noticed obvious imbalances based on class alone and with equal skill. By no means is this always happening, since there are times I do pretty well too :)

[XRAX]

All i could say is we'll see. Im just waiting for the time to make a purely constructive thread to voice a proper overview feedback of GCD specifically on PVP, but it will easily come down to 1500 words. Ill have a little vacation within a week or two and maybe ill post it then if whats broken isnt fixed. All in all, i truly respect the hard work the devs have put into this game and repeat that all the time in my posts and in person. Those who keep saying they are quitting (or who have already), I convince them to be patient and have hope. I am committed which is why I wont give up trying to make a difference in bringing back PVP (essentially what was the heart of this game for me) back to the same caliber it stood at before.

[Nightarcher]

@Xrax

In my opinion, pvp is the best it's ever been, and with a little balancing, it'll be even better. The devs spent a lot of time and implemented it for a reason. If you're planning on staying, spend your time working with gcd, not hoping for it to go away. :)

[XRAX]

@Xrax

In my opinion, pvp is the best it's ever been, and with a little balancing, it'll be even better. The devs spent a lot of time and implemented it for a reason. If you're planning on staying, spend your time working with gcd, not hoping for it to go away. :)

Hi nightarcher,
I know of a couple players who may share your view, and I think it's great that this change is appealing to some players like yourself. However just the other day, I was in the same arena with you and happened to witness a level 50 bird with less than 20 kills and deaths having his way with you at the same rate you were them. Not exactly sure what about this you were enjoying, but I remember you were a great player before this update, and easily one of the top archers. Now it's as if anyone can jus walk in and kill anyone.
I am definitely planning on staying, and unlike many pvp vets, I have been online everyday. I have already adapted to the new system and still play at the same level I did before, but so does everyone else. Additionally I am not only speaking on my behalf, but rather on the behalf of the majority of others who have grown to love this game for what it offered. Either way, im here to stay, but feel obliged, to myself and others, to voice our opinions in a constructive manner. I'm happy you like the new system and I hope you keep enjoying your new pvp experience :).

[Physiologic]

PL is originally only supposed to be a PvE game, the devs only released PvP because a lot of players asked for it. Trying to apply PvE mechanics into PvP is like doing this:

http://c0023576.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/square-peg-chisel.jpg

PvP in PL will ALWAYS, always be flawed to a large extent, unless a complete overhaul is done so that PvE AND PvP mechanics are taken into account hand-in-hand. At the current rate, every global (e.g. GCD) and individual (e.g. skill damage) change will shift PvP balance in favor for one type of class. When I think of balance, there absolutely cannot be one build or class that outperforms another build or another class. Blizzard's Starcraft series is a perfect example of this, as a seasoned veteran can defeat any race with any race - but bringing in Starcraft into this argument is moot since Starcraft is driven on a PvP engine. Birds reigned supreme before GCD and now dex mages are top. There can be no argument as to how to make PvP "better" in any way. Many skills need to be scrapped and redesigned as well as innate game mechanics, like how mage skills fire faster with the GCD, and formula changes as well (hit%, crit, armor, dodge calculations). It sucks bears have to deal with one "chance" to do damage otherwise they are dead - there is clearly a flaw with a bear's inherent hit% in this case that must be adjusted for PvP, or else it will always be unfair for this class.

Unless there's an overhaul in nearly every aspect of every class in PL, I will be expecting more of these "______ owns PvP" threads in the future.

[Slush]

PL is originally only supposed to be a PvE game, the devs only released PvP because a lot of players asked for it. Trying to apply PvE mechanics into PvP is like doing this:

http://c0023576.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/square-peg-chisel.jpg

PvP in PL will ALWAYS, always be flawed to a large extent, unless a complete overhaul is done so that PvE AND PvP mechanics are taken into account hand-in-hand. At the current rate, every global (e.g. GCD) and individual (e.g. skill damage) change will shift PvP balance in favor for one type of class. When I think of balance, there absolutely cannot be one build or class that outperforms another build or another class. Blizzard's Starcraft series is a perfect example of this, as a seasoned veteran can defeat any race with any race - but bringing in Starcraft into this argument is moot since Starcraft is driven on a PvP engine. Birds reigned supreme before GCD and now dex mages are top. There can be no argument as to how to make PvP "better" in any way. Many skills need to be scrapped and redesigned as well as innate game mechanics, like how mage skills fire faster with the GCD, and formula changes as well (hit%, crit, armor, dodge calculations). It sucks bears have to deal with one "chance" to do damage otherwise they are dead - there is clearly a flaw with a bear's inherent hit% in this case that must be adjusted for PvP, or else it will always be unfair for this class.

Unless there's an overhaul in nearly every aspect of every class in PL, I will be expecting more of these "______ owns PvP" threads in the future.

great picture

[Ellyidol]

It sucks bears have to deal with one "chance" to do damage otherwise they are dead - there is clearly a flaw with a bear's inherent hit% in this case that must be adjusted for PvP, or else it will always be unfair for this class.

Unless there's an overhaul in nearly every aspect of every class in PL, I will be expecting more of these "______ owns PvP" threads in the future.

Exactly what I've been trying to say :)

I can understand why there is a large increase of Bow Bears now too. It eliminates the Hit/Crit issue and gives us what str bears have the most disadvantage on; range.

From my understanding it goes :

"Instead of dying while trying to fight as a str bear, you might as well die, and kill even, as a bow bear."

[Sigkill]

Exactly what I've been trying to say :)

I can understand why there is a large increase of Bow Bears now too. It eliminates the Hit/Crit issue and gives us what str bears have the most disadvantage on; range.

From my understanding it goes :

"Instead of dying while trying to fight as a str bear, you might as well die, and kill even, as a bow bear."


Bow Bears are actually pretty legit nowadays :D

[Conradin]

almost as legit as a intbear =P bow bears may be fun, but intbears are the funnest.

[XRAX]

PL is originally only supposed to be a PvE game, the devs only released PvP because a lot of players asked for it. Trying to apply PvE mechanics into PvP is like doing this:

http://c0023576.cdn1.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/square-peg-chisel.jpg

PvP in PL will ALWAYS, always be flawed to a large extent, unless a complete overhaul is done so that PvE AND PvP mechanics are taken into account hand-in-hand. At the current rate, every global (e.g. GCD) and individual (e.g. skill damage) change will shift PvP balance in favor for one type of class. When I think of balance, there absolutely cannot be one build or class that outperforms another build or another class. Blizzard's Starcraft series is a perfect example of this, as a seasoned veteran can defeat any race with any race - but bringing in Starcraft into this argument is moot since Starcraft is driven on a PvP engine. Birds reigned supreme before GCD and now dex mages are top. There can be no argument as to how to make PvP "better" in any way. Many skills need to be scrapped and redesigned as well as innate game mechanics, like how mage skills fire faster with the GCD, and formula changes as well (hit%, crit, armor, dodge calculations). It sucks bears have to deal with one "chance" to do damage otherwise they are dead - there is clearly a flaw with a bear's inherent hit% in this case that must be adjusted for PvP, or else it will always be unfair for this class.

Unless there's an overhaul in nearly every aspect of every class in PL, I will be expecting more of these "______ owns PvP" threads in the future.


Nice picture.
Hmm, but I am just wondering, wouldn't it be easier to work on a PvP balance and then adapt the changes to PvE? I mean, to be honest, what is there to PvE? Stick with the team, move forward, nuke mob, move forward, nuke mob, ... move forward, kill boss...My point is that PvP is much more dynamic than PvE, and although the original intention of this game was oriented towards PvE, the introduction of PvP has added so much more to the game.

[Moogerfooger]

Nice picture.
Hmm, but I am just wondering, wouldn't it be easier to work on a PvP balance and then adapt the changes to PvE? I mean, to be honest, what is there to PvE? Stick with the team, move forward, nuke mob, move forward, nuke mob, ... move forward, kill boss...My point is that PvP is much more dynamic than PvE, and although the original intention of this game was oriented towards PvE, the introduction of PvP has added so much more to the game.

If that is your view of PvE, then it is fatally flawed and there goes any credibilty you have on the subject, much like you claimed Physiologic didn't have credibility because he wasn't experienced in PvP. Timing skills with your teammates/different classes is just as strategic in PvE as certain strategies in PvP. It is just a different dynamic/arena.

[Zeus]

Dex Elf's are not that OP. Figured out a strategy to kill them. Ask Sigkill if you don't believe me :).

[Sigkill]

Dex Elf's are not that OP. Figured out a strategy to kill them. Ask Sigkill if you don't believe me :).

As Parth said, there is a special way in which Dex elfs can easily be killed.

[skimmey]

Blast repulse wait up hope for some dodges of course u wear drainer return to the target blind blast root and u win. Not hard actually still too much luck involved here.

Ah ye after repulse make use of restore lvl 6 it will prevent ur death and u can regen up a bit

[Ladylove]

Goodness gracious, you boys speak so formally.

[Riccits]

to xrax and phys:

pve and pvp can be fun. its just what u make of it. but true, pvp is way more challenge than pve. iam getting involved more and more in pvp, phys u just need to begin once to get addicted. more i pvp, more bores me pve.
i must say that gcd is a reaso for me to begin pvp. before i coudnt kill noone, birds killed me (my bird) in 0.01sec.. how can i practice something in that way?? saying "your to slow" didnt help me much... now when i die, at least i know what i did wrong and i begin to understand a bit.. but it really requires a lot practice.
problem of gcd is just we dont are practiced yet in the right timing. thats why most speak about lottery right?

[F1zzzzp0p]

Is dex mage dual spec with dex and int?

[Ellyidol]

Is dex mage dual spec with dex and int?

The most ideal one, yes.

Like any other hybrid, a Bow Bear is best on a str/dex mix and not pure dex, a Warbird is best on a str/dex mix and not pure str, a Dexchantress is best on a dex/int mix and not pure dex. Notice how each of the hybrids still keep their primary stat as the other half of the build :)

[F1zzzzp0p]

I think dex int dual spec with sewer ling set is better than raid