View Full Version : The Scam Debate.
So, this is regarding Slushie and Laanehal, as Slushie was angry, so he didn't seem to have explained the situation very well, so I will do it for him. Please note, he did not ask me to do this. Keep everything you have to say about this respectful and courteous, please and thank you.
Laanehal approached Slushie and offered him a deal. He presented him a Custom Leather, stated that if Slushie taught him the secrets of PvP, he would give him the custom leather. Please note, if you PvP. Builds are a very delicate matter, it's not taken lightly to "steal" somebody's build. Slushie agreed, this creating a deal/contract, if you will. Slushie did teach him everything that he knew about PvP, then later when he asked for his payment. Laanehal removed him from his friends list and didn't pay him. This in a sense is a scam, because there was a dealthat they agreed upon. This is why Slushie made the thread. Laanehal saw the thread, when I confronted him about it in Balefort Castle, he had stated, people don't think I'm a scammer, so it's ok.
What does that mean? That implies he thinks it was OK to do that and may continue to do that in the future, I personally hate to see people get scammed and stealing of knowledge, without willful consent, IMO is a scam.
If the thread gets trollish or rough, I'll delete it. Thanks :). Just wanted to let people know.
Harmicide
05-29-2011, 05:34 PM
= Kid should be stoned!
JK, but in all serious laane if you see this, just give him the leather.
Ayc2000
05-29-2011, 05:40 PM
Oh, yeah, I saw this thread from slushie...i think he should get something, not necessarily the recipe, but maybe money to buy one? And the recipe should be taken way from laanehal
Oh, yeah, I saw this thread from slushie...i think he should get something, not necessarily the recipe, but maybe money to buy one? And the recipe should be taken way from laanehal
I don't necessarily want him to be punished, it's just the fact when I spoke to him in towne, he saw people tearing down Slush's post, so he thought it's OK to scam and you can get away with it, leading me to believe, he may do this to somebody else in the future.
Ayc2000
05-29-2011, 05:45 PM
I don't necessarily want him to be punished, it's just the fact when I spoke to him in towne, he saw people tearing down Slush's post, so he thought it's OK to scam and you can get away with it, leading me to believe, he may do this to somebody else in the future.
Well, he may not have to be punished, but slush should get something, because pvp secrets are not to be taken lightly. At least an apology or something should be made
thugimmortal
05-29-2011, 05:56 PM
yeah i agree that this is a scam but theres nothing that can be done as it was a vebal agreement.
this type of deal is best left for friends who a player has played with over time and gained trust.
you cant just go by a strangers word on things like this
but some people have no honour and should be ashamed of them selves.
i dont think they care anyway they got what they wanted its just a shame that slushie has missed out.
laanehal is offically named and shamed.
Ayc2000
05-29-2011, 05:58 PM
Down comes the shame curtain
dun dun dunnnnnn
davidis57
05-29-2011, 06:55 PM
It accomplishes one thing everyone who reads this will not enter into deals with him.
judgementbow
05-29-2011, 06:56 PM
We have a trade system that was recently updated to be 100% better (haven't tried it yet but notes said you should be able to look at the trade and accept from a locked state). There shouldn't be anymore trade related scams unless you step outside the system by trading something that wasn't really meant to be traded. Maybe make a suggestion to devs to be able to trade a typed document ingame?
It accomplishes one thing everyone who reads this will not enter into deals with him.
That's what I was looking for. +1. :)
Kossi
05-29-2011, 07:04 PM
all you can do is shame them
i personally wouldnt give my lv30 build out to anyone but one person- yunaofspira
no bans are necessary.
Redbridge
05-29-2011, 07:08 PM
Its a difficult one because there are two sides to every story..... BUT
If this is true, I simply couldn't take advantage of someone like that, and I'm glad Parth highlighted it so more people are aware & that people can make their own minds up.
I'm not sure anyone can do anything retrospectively but I certainly will be wary of Laanehal.
Would be a good opportunity to give your side of the story Laanehal.
[Also might be one for the Guardian Court but that would need one of the two parties to report it to DanielRH.]
Kossi
05-29-2011, 07:09 PM
the devs cant do anything, so theres no reason for laane to do anything at all...
noobmigo
05-29-2011, 07:16 PM
Heh.
Not really a scam.
Definition -A fraudulent business scheme
Physiologic's input - "This is why I don't PvP"
Anyway, did L-whatevs, blah, was that a fraudulent business scheme? Nope.
Which means not a scam.
Lesson Learned: Never give out secrets to people you don't trust.
eh?
Lesson Learned No. 2: Don't expect anything back.
IF you don't expect anything, then you won't think anything about it.
Seriously, even if L-Whatevs offered something, Slushy (Slushie?) shouldn't have expected anything to come. This stuff happens way too much to bring it to forums.
EDIT: ...sec...
Well...in effect it was a scam.
But not one that should be brought to forums.
But yes, a scam because:
D2 - to defraud, swindle.
noobmigo
05-29-2011, 07:24 PM
OK, I basically just contradicted myself in my post before, so let me clarify(!)
This stuff basically happens way too much. It's happened to me, more times than I can count. BUT, they are PvP secrets. Not gold. Not items. Basically worthless. Coming from a heavy PvPer. If you don't expect anything, then you won't feel any loss. And it's not like you lost anything. Your build? Ooooh. What is this? 56 PvP? All builds are LITERALLY almost the same!
Anyway, this was a not-scam and a scam at the same time. (Here's the confusing part for me.)
D1 - A fraudulent business scheme. Heh, I don't think this guy is going to make any money off of this. And he's probably not going to sell it either.
D2 - To Defraud, Swindle. Well. Slushie (y) basically did get swindled out of a build, so it was a scam.
Scam Rating - 0
Scammer Skill Level Rating - 1
Victim Scam Resistance Rating - 2
Morality of the Scammer - 0
Morality of the Victim - 9
See, I even made a system!
drewcapu
05-29-2011, 07:39 PM
If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
If you can't put it in a trade screen, don't trade.
OK, I basically just contradicted myself in my post before, so let me clarify(!)
This stuff basically happens way too much. It's happened to me, more times than I can count. BUT, they are PvP secrets. Not gold. Not items. Basically worthless. Coming from a heavy PvPer. If you don't expect anything, then you won't feel any loss. And it's not like you lost anything. Your build? Ooooh. What is this? 56 PvP? All builds are LITERALLY almost the same!
Anyway, this was a not-scam and a scam at the same time. (Here's the confusing part for me.)
D1 - A fraudulent business scheme. Heh, I don't think this guy is going to make any money off of this. And he's probably not going to sell it either.
D2 - To Defraud, Swindle. Well. Slushie (y) basically did get swindled out of a build, so it was a scam.
Scam Rating - 0
Scammer Skill Level Rating - 1
Victim Scam Resistance Rating - 2
Morality of the Scammer - 0
Morality of the Victim - 9
See, I even made a system!
Ya, but the thing is. I was speaking to Laanehal today, and he saw the posts about saying it was not a scam, so he thinks its allright to CONTINUE doing this. That's the point.
Gluttony
05-29-2011, 08:07 PM
Again, I have yet to hear Laanehal's reply so I cannot be too critical of said player. Personally, I still don't see it as a scam but it does sound rather underhanded. There is no way to know how much time/effort was put into teaching said player how to pvp. There are many scenarios that would make the situation less shady, here are my top two:
1) Laanehal didn't know the price of said item, we're talking about a 1.1-1.5M item here. Now I'm not serious about pvp but that's a hefty price for some guidance.
2) Information was incomplete/incorrect, did Laanehal get the opportunity to actually test said build? Perhaps he was disappointed, was there a money back guarentee?
I could go on, but it's not necessary as I'm sure the point has been made. I was wary of just regular trades (before the confirmation screen was added) and would have never made a trade for intangible services in game. The point was made before (it was worded a bit better this time) and nothing changes imo. I don't see the point of blacklisting a player over something he/she has not had a say in at all. Finally, there should have been some intermediary (since both players didn't know each other) to handle the item and oversee the actual transaction. It sounds like there was a GoA there so perhaps the whole process should have been more thought out.
Ya, but the thing is. I was speaking to Laanehal today, and he saw the posts about saying it was not a scam, so he thinks its allright to CONTINUE doing this. That's the point.
Edit: Can he really pull it off twice? If all you're trying to do is put this char on blast, then mission accomplished. Slush already explained the situation and the word is out about said player, I don't have enough information to condemn the player but there is enough to make others think twice.
noobmigo
05-29-2011, 08:20 PM
Ya, but the thing is. I was speaking to Laanehal today, and he saw the posts about saying it was not a scam, so he thinks its allright to CONTINUE doing this. That's the point.
Tell him that Noobmigo "supports" him for now, but if he pulls someone else's pants, I will come and find him. ;)
Fyrce
05-29-2011, 08:29 PM
The guy took something of value by promising to exchange it for something else of monetary value. I would say there was fraud and deception here. Whether the community support such fraud and deception, well, that's what we're discussing here.
Me, I choose not to let this stuff and such people into my "game" world. So thanks range and slushie. But then I know you guys. I don't know what's his name.
Whirlzap
05-29-2011, 08:30 PM
Apollo youre getting affected by "Reputation Virus."
I know yoy well but this time I cannot agree.
Yes it was wrong for Lana to "scam" but this can be looked upon in different ways.
We need Slushie to show US EXACTLY WHAT HE SHOWED LANA.
Then we can discuss if what Slushie said was actually knowledge and not common suff that Lana already knew.
Lana as an archer must already know some things and must have felt ripped off from Slushie teaching what was "common knowledge" to HIM.
When he went to the Castle he just tried to defend himself from accusations.
Now to look at it the other way.
Builds and such are not very open to others. It's secret information.
What class build did Slushie teach? It might have been a bear, and considering Lana is an arher, it could,ve been useless to him.
But then again, when one tells secret information, he thinks that even though it may be of no importance to the other side, he values it himself a lot more.
Lana must also learn to respect this.
In verdict, knowledge cannot be untraded.
If this was a SOLID trade then yes, I would suggest a tradeback.
However Lana has this knowledge in him now and so my best verdict is for them to forgive each other and for the recipe to be sold and split more in Lana's side because he did oppose many factors.(55%)
And as for Slushie to be sure of this, Lana must promise to never use his build or tell anyoneZ
This is my suggestion for a fair settlement.
Gluttony
05-29-2011, 09:14 PM
Me, I choose not to let this stuff and such people into my "game" world. So thanks range and slushie. But then I know you guys. I don't know what's his name.
This is what's going on for me here, as there are two prominent players that are railroading one player via forums (weather the situation warrants it or not). Taken directly from STS tos which can be found here (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?11694-Pocket-Legends-Terms-of-Service):
Encourages or constitutes behavior that does not support a safe and comfortable environment for all users, including but not limited to defamatory conduct or otherwise makes the Software Product an uncomfortable experience for anyone.
People tend to side with friends, and while most of us acknowledge that Laane was in the wrong to a point there is a bit of wiggle room. So before we all jump on board the ban-wagon we must all be aware that this was already been brought to the devs attentions, and without screenshots or a proper explanation of exactly what was said I believe that there is not too much more that can be done about this situation.
CrimsonTider
05-29-2011, 09:15 PM
Noob, gluttony, and I have been on the same page since Slush's original post. Only two people know EXACTLY what was said. I feel Slush was more in the wrong by coming on here, calling out the other player, and the using poor language to get his point across. Also, Slush admitted to him and "friends" harassing the other player. Coming from a veteran player.... Slush's actions exceed the said "scam".
Bottom line: let the devs handle it. I do not know the two parties at hand so I do not have a side. I believe this whole thing should be dropped and people stop sitting their dirty laundry on the forums. It is JUST a video game. Let it die, learn the lesson, and be happy accounts are still active after clear breaches in TOS.
And remember .... ROLL TIDE!! :)
Apollo youre getting affected by "Reputation Virus."
I know yoy well but this time I cannot agree.
Yes it was wrong for Lana to "scam" but this can be looked upon in different ways.
We need Slushie to show US EXACTLY WHAT HE SHOWED LANA.
Then we can discuss if what Slushie said was actually knowledge and not common suff that Lana already knew.
Lana as an archer must already know some things and must have felt ripped off from Slushie teaching what was "common knowledge" to HIM.
When he went to the Castle he just tried to defend himself from accusations.
Now to look at it the other way.
Builds and such are not very open to others. It's secret information.
What class build did Slushie teach? It might have been a bear, and considering Lana is an arher, it could,ve been useless to him.
But then again, when one tells secret information, he thinks that even though it may be of no importance to the other side, he values it himself a lot more.
Lana must also learn to respect this.
In verdict, knowledge cannot be untraded.
If this was a SOLID trade then yes, I would suggest a tradeback.
However Lana has this knowledge in him now and so my best verdict is for them to forgive each other and for the recipe to be sold and split more in Lana's side because he did oppose many factors.(55%)
And as for Slushie to be sure of this, Lana must promise to never use his build or tell anyoneZ
This is my suggestion for a fair settlement.
I was a witness, and I'm not using my reputation to try and qualify this. I did not take screenies, sorry if I didn't. Didn't think to, I don't normally deal with scamming affairs. They were both archers, so Slush didn't give him a wrong build.
Again, I will state my point. In game, he said, because players didn't think he was a scammer, that it was ok. THAT IS THE POINT. He thinks it was ok to do so.
CrimsonTider
05-29-2011, 09:17 PM
This is what's going on for me here, as there are two prominent players that are railroading one player via forums (weather the situation warrants it or not). Taken directly from STS tos which can be found here (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?11694-Pocket-Legends-Terms-of-Service):
Encourages or constitutes behavior that does not support a safe and comfortable environment for all users, including but not limited to defamatory conduct or otherwise makes the Software Product an uncomfortable experience for anyone.
People tend to side with friends, and while most of us acknowledge that Laane was in the wrong to a point there is a bit of wiggle room. So before we all jump on board the ban-wagon we must all be aware that this was already been brought to the devs attentions, and without screenshots or a proper explanation of exactly what was said I believe that there is not too much more that can be done about this situation.
LOL... get out of my head!!
CrimsonTider
05-29-2011, 09:19 PM
I was a witness, and I'm not using my reputation to try and qualify this. I did not take screenies, sorry if I didn't. Didn't think to, I don't normally deal with scamming affairs. They were both archers, so Slush didn't give him a wrong build.
Again, I will state my point. In game, he said, because players didn't think he was a scammer, that it was ok. THAT IS THE POINT. He thinks it was ok to do so.
Buddy... I would email the devs and let it die. Im afraid this stuff is gonna cause more pain than is needed.
Redbridge
05-29-2011, 09:30 PM
Buddy... I would email the devs and let it die. Im afraid this stuff is gonna cause more pain than is needed.
Agreed - thanks for highlighting it as a potential issue Parth but it is for those two players to take it from here, and for the rest of us to make our own conclusions.
There's isn't anything positive to be gained from discussing this any further in public.
Two people, unofficial trade (unconfirmed details), one apparently delivers their part the other doesn't (apparently), hard lesson for one person, something gained (maybe) for another, some valuable lessons for the rest of us....
What more can be done?
Isn't this the point where Phys says "that's why I don't PvP"
[EDIT: I feel for Slush, I do, but we all have to be ultra careful with any trading we do, it's especially risky outside the secure trade window]
thecakeisaspy
05-29-2011, 09:32 PM
just to point out you might be mistaking what he's saying. he may not be saying its alright to do again but he might be saying its alright as in nothing bad has happened. but thats just my 2 cents. *creeps back into shadows.*
thugimmortal
05-29-2011, 09:34 PM
Buddy... I would email the devs and let it die. Im afraid this stuff is gonna cause more pain than is needed.
lol theres nothing for the devs to sort
slushy wasnt deprived of gold or an item in game as in theft.
just duped into sharing his build and pvp secrets
we all know its wrong but all that can be done has been already.
Redbridge
05-29-2011, 09:36 PM
Parth, Is this a candidate for the close thread button?
Parth, Is this a candidate for the close thread button?
More like a delete :).
Actually, it seems our power to delete threads seems to have disappeared. So, thread lock :).