Juggernaut Change Discussion

[Carapace]

Hello everyone!

I have put together an idea on how to modify the Juggernaut ability for the future of AL based on the communities desire to see changes. Given the nature of this change, we feel it wise to discuss it openly beforehand and see if the community likes the idea as much as we do.

Please leave constructive feedback in the thread below!

The Concerns

From my perspective and understanding, the Juggernaut ability has two main concerns. One is the early game PvP implications associated with a direct 300 HP or 500 HP boost, as this is no joke at early levels. The other concern is that higher end players see not as much benefit as maximum health climbs to the 3, 4 and 5 thousand mark. As more levels become available and more health as a result we will begin to see the bonus of this skill dwindle until it is deemed worthless from diminishing returns which we don't want to see.

The Adjustment

The planned adjustment is to grant the warrior a maximum HP boost that scales based on your armor value. This is more interesting than a flat % of max health, or % based on level scalar in that it now has a synergy potential with armor stated items, jewels, and pets. As a % of armor obviously it will be subject to increases based on external buffs and the like provided by other player skills and pet activated abilities where appropriate. Here are a few examples of how the health bonus would scale based on your level and approximate armor values.


Tap - 10% Armor as health
Charge - 16.5% Armor as health


Note that this is representative without jewels of any kind, without pets, and using the 5/5 Armor bonus passive and legendary gear. This 5% armor boost seems like a few points well spent and obviously complimentary given this change. A sword and shield used for the weapon slot to maximize armor from gear on hand. All gear used was purchased through the Store packs as a baseline. Again, all armor values here are more or less approximate based on testing and not a mean, average, or other related data point.

143232

The final level 46 entry here denotes more "end game" gear. Mythic and arcane gear compared to store bought legendary gear at 46.

Expectations

What we anticipate this change to do, is provide players with new combinations of pets/gear/jewels in order to find their comfort zone related to this skill as it applies to their play style and net health benefit. We also expect it to have an effect on low level PvP more than high level PvP, and our focus is on the whole system and not specific brackets of play. The potential range given these values as you can see still puts players in the 300 HP and 500 HP bonus like current Juggernaut does once you approach max level, with some wiggle room based on personal gear and related choices. As higher levels become available the amount of HP potential will continue to grow appropriately.

So, thoughts?

[Arrowz]

I like it. Juggernaut will make twinks less invincible when they use it

[Madnex]

Not bad. I like the idea with armor because it incorporates more thought on skill/pet combinations and rewards the defensive builds (which is what needs improvement). The problem is that it this solution solely addresses the issue of unbalanced stat buffs in low level PvP while the prominent issue with warriors is their PvE inefficiency and uselessness.

That aside, I think it should scale a bit more aggressively because of:
-The max HP's at end-game being closer to 7, 8 and 9k (not 4, 5, 6). There's no need to lower end-game PvP tank's survivability.

-The plethora of armor debuffs in the PvP environment. In combination with how debuffs override buffs and can stack on each other, anything but raw added armor is at best unreliable (eg. Aimed Shot's 15% armor debuff can be kept up 100% of the time -- basically, PvP is synonymous with rogues and rogues are synonymous with AS).

----------------------------------------------------------
Wouldn't this work better if it scaled with base STR?
It could also help eliminate the issue of twinks receiving Happiness Bonuses from pets designed for end-game (eg. Abaddon below L10 is seriously OP with 110 armor). And before someone asks, base STR does not include pets' HB.

[Newcomx]

What is the purpose of this change? PVE wise is useless, to add more health as Warr health & armor already "more than enough" in this current map. Adding Jugg in Warr skill slot only sacrificing 1 attack skill (IMO...nobody want to replace VB with Jugg).

I suggest for next Jug improvement to add Party Buff (in pt mode, not random map entrance), so it will bring back warr to PVE environment.

[Poiwed]

This is probably the worst thing you could do to tanks considering that end game tanks are complaining about how it has too long of a cooldown compared to the time its in effect and it doesnt help much in pvp. Rogues can still one shot end game tanks through jugg it makes no sense that youll nerf it for twink mages and rogues while end games need it buffed. Why bother raising the level cap if all you guys do is focus on what twinks want while the ones that are capped are complaining about it needing buffed so warriors will actually be useful.

[Aserockon]

As others are saying ,
This just makes tanks better in PvP but their main problem is PvE

[Zeus]

The idea is not great, because it puts tanks at the vulnerability of rogue skills. Aimed shot has an incorporated armor debuff so with this system, not only will most tanks have their overall survivability decreased but they will also be at the mercy of rogue and nekro's 15-20% armor debuff.

I would suggest, if you are going to implement this system...a far more aggressive layout or the ability to have jugg ignore these armor debuffs when returning health/boosting health. As mentioned before, the boost has to be far bigger anyways even when not taking into account the various armor debuffs.

[Carapace]

These are good discussion points. If the primary concern is also the PvP effect of armor debuffs from Rogues and some PvE content, I have another idea that may help.

A charged Juggernaut provides immunity to armor debuff effects and removes any current armor debuffs from themselves would help, as an added component to one of the upgrade skills. This, in theory would alleviate the major down point to this change similar to what Zeus is describing. The casting warrior would receive the immunity for the duration of the buff, and nearby allies could receive a one off cleansing of armor reducing debuffs. It could be reapplied of course by a follow up aimshot, but could prove circumstantially relevant.

A secondary consideration with the scale increase per level is possible, however some numbers would have to be crunched to see what that would look like at an exaggerated level cap.

Good thoughts, keep the feedback coming.

[Arrowz]

ive been saying for awhile that warrior skills need to scale more. They are absurd at lower lvls but much less impressive at higher lvls. like the 50 Str buff on venge. So making jugg scale is a step in the positive direction but some potential changes are:

1. more aggressive scaling
2. make it scale off of base armor, so debuffs dont hurt the skill itself.

+1 to the idea of scaling though

[rustygun]

The idea is not great, because it puts tanks at the vulnerability of rogue skills. Aimed shot has an incorporated armor debuff so with this system, not only will most tanks have their overall survivability decreased but they will also be at the mercy of rogue and nekro's 15-20% armor debuff.

I would suggest, if you are going to implement this system...a far more aggressive layout or the ability to have jugg ignore these armor debuffs when returning health/boosting health. As mentioned before, the boost has to be far bigger anyways even when not taking into account the various armor debuffs.

Yes Zeus I agree %100

[Kingofninjas]

Carapace,
Apart from what Zeus said about the basically permanent armor debuff (in PvP), your numbers are WAY off for the health increase that juggernaut gives. At lvl 46, without jewels, gems or passive, tanks will be hitting 2700 armor or less, which would amount to a 450 hp increase. I don't exactly see how that is a buff. They get 500 hp now, and they need more hp, not less. I would suggest a blanket TRIPLE of the health values, or hold off on this idea till tanks are hitting between 7-8k armor (maybe 10 seasons from now should the game have that many expansions).

[rustygun]

Also please don't overlook the 45 sec CD time.. Longest skill to CD on all toons

[Caabatric]

I don't see where this will help wars,(maybe it will I just dont see it)
MY thoughts to jugg are
1. Charged jugg applies heavy slow
2. Charged jugg applies 30% damage for 5 seconds to party if tank is below 30% health

I feel these 2 would be significant enough to help in both pve and pvp. I can't say about the health v armor stat gain comparison though they seem very similiar

[rustygun]

Also I can't recover from charged heal alone if HP drop %25 still die like I never heal 45 sec CD on jug make this a wide gap

[Hunter16]

Finally we get proof that the "buff wars" was actually seen by someone.

Anyway, the adjustments as seen on first post will actually nerf warriors in pvp. Warriors at high levels don't have 3k armor, and neither 3-4-5k health. Warriors have around 2.2k-2.9k armor on average, and from 7k to 9k hp.

But as I'm not into pvp and don't even use Juggernaut at all, this is not going help warriors be efficient in PvE.

What warriors need is a reason to get Party Invites to run elite maps.

The Glintstone Aegis proc is the only way a Warrior can run maps fast enough, but that weapon is not available at lower levels, not everyone has the gold go afford it, and new weapons will probably have different procs, so this is only temporary.

That doesn't mean a Warrior with Glintstone Aegis is useful, it's just like a fat mage with lower attack, and still very bad as we deal little to no damage when the opponents have large health amounts or armor (elite Northal for example).

What I suggest is that you help us get useful in PvE, as we have a hard time to find parties to run maps. That leads to warriors staying in towns like stray dogs, poor and never having fun.

Thanks for reading and good luck.

[rustygun]

I don't see where this will help wars,(maybe it will I just dont see it)
MY thoughts to jugg are
1. Charged jugg applies heavy slow
2. Charged jugg applies 30% damage for 5 seconds to party if tank is below 30% health

I feel these 2 would be significant enough to help in both pve and pvp. I can't say about the health v armor stat gain comparison though they seem very similiar

The fact that jugg is a damage taking skill making it deflect damage back to attackers could work too..

[Franocazzzo]

Atm this is a horrible idea and I would rather stay with my jugg as the way it is. This would demolish all undergeared tanks.

[Niixed]

Hello everyone!

The Adjustment

The planned adjustment is to grant the warrior a maximum HP boost that scales based on your armor value. This is more interesting than a flat % of max health, or % based on level scalar in that it now has a synergy potential with armor stated items, jewels, and pets. As a % of armor obviously it will be subject to increases based on external buffs and the like provided by other player skills and pet activated abilities where appropriate. Here are a few examples of how the health bonus would scale based on your level and approximate armor values.


Tap - 10% Armor as health
Charge - 16.5% Armor as health


Note that this is representative without jewels of any kind, without pets, and using the 5/5 Armor bonus passive and legendary gear. This 5% armor boost seems like a few points well spent and obviously complimentary given this change. A sword and shield used for the weapon slot to maximize armor from gear on hand. All gear used was purchased through the Store packs as a baseline. Again, all armor values here are more or less approximate based on testing and not a mean, average, or other related data point.

....

So, thoughts?

Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players would be stuck having to make a complex calculation to determine the actual benefit to them personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I think pinning the 300/500 health benefit to a 'fair' level like level 21 may be a possible solution.




Tap (+10/lvl)
Charge (tap*1.66)


1
100
167


6
150
250


11
200
333


16
250
417


21
300
500


26
350
583


31
400
667


36
450
750


41
500
833


46
550
917

[rustygun]

Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players would be stuck having to make a complex calculation to determine the actual benefit to them personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I think pinning the 300/500 health benefit to 'fair' level like level 21 may be a possible solution.




Tap (+10/lvl)
Charge (tap*1.66)


1
100
167


6
150
250


11
200
333


16
250
417


21
300
500


26
350
583


31
400
667


36
450
750


41
500
833


46
550
917



I hope sometime in the very near future developers seriously address Aimed Shot. This one skill is responsible for nearly all claims of class imbalance and all the drama has come with them. It gives rogues insanely overpowered damage output that will only get worse with each level cap. I've heard comments like: "...rename the game to Rogue Legends." AS is a game-breaker that's never been seriously addressed. Juggernaut isn't nearly enough to balance out AS, but it should be.


I'm a tank and I'm saying leave aim shot alone.. I hate nerfing and to be honest we don't want to to make any toon weaker but match them in strength and skills.. "One time use skill!!!!" Aim shot and NOX bolt CD 3sec jug last about 4-5 if no break taking heavy damage for the duration of 40 sec aim shot and NOx rain on you...

[rustygun]

As I said before rogues and mage are equally matched good calculation and skills determined result of equally geared players nerfing rogue in anyway will give mage an advantage.. This discussion is not about nerfing another toon stay on track please folks we talking about jugg...

[Serancha]

If this adjustment is about PvP and/or twink warriors being OP, then feel free to disregard this post.

However, I honestly don't believe that changing Jugg is a viable way to "fix" the warrior situation in PvE, which is the main concern players have with class balance at the moment.

The entire problem with warriors in PvE is that they slow down runs immensely, they find it increasingly difficult to hold aggro, and skills that should be blocking boss windups are no longer doing that. I don't see warriors in PvE having any issues with lack of armour or health, making this adjustment irrelevant for that aspect of the game.

The way the Juggernaut taunt is set up just doesn't work in a situation where you are supposed to be holding aggro against high damage, fast-hitting companions (rogues & mages). The length of the cooldown also makes this skill impractical at best in PvE.

I think it would be better to give chest splitter a proper reach and allow it to block windups again, and possibly give windmill back some of its original oomph and have it strike 5 mobs not 3, or else throw taunt on Vengeful Blood.

Another option would be to make it so that if a warrior is present, the party has 50% immunity to the debilitating effect of the map - (this would be stuns in Ren'Gol or poison pools in Shuyal, etc.)

[Zeus]

Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players would be stuck having to make a complex calculation to determine the actual benefit to them personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I think pinning the 300/500 health benefit to a 'fair' level like level 21 may be a possible solution.




Tap (+10/lvl)
Charge (tap*1.66)


1
100
167


6
150
250


11
200
333


16
250
417


21
300
500


26
350
583


31
400
667


36
450
750


41
500
833


46
550
917



I hope sometime in the very near future developers seriously address Aimed Shot. This one skill is responsible for nearly all claims of class imbalance and all the drama has come with them. It gives rogues insanely overpowered damage output that will only get worse with each level cap. I've heard comments like: "...rename the game to Rogue Legends." AS is a game-breaker that's never been seriously addressed. Juggernaut isn't nearly enough to balance out AS, but it should be.

The Mage buffs came due to aimed shot's capabilities. Nerf that and everything else has to go backwards as well. Don't forget that lightning hits pretty dang hard these days too - enough to one combo me.

[Dimitrian]

Welp,at least they found out warriors exist.
Now they have to make them not slowing runs in pve.

Trimis de pe al meu GT-P5100 folosind Tapatalk

[rustygun]

The Mage buffs came due to aimed shot's capabilities. Nerf that and everything else has to go backwards as well. Don't forget that lightning hits pretty dang hard these days too - enough to one combo me.

Only difference with aim and lightening is armor reduce on aim and %25 hit chance reduce on lightening all else is pretty much the same %250 dmg increase on critical is same as aim and lightening but lightning can hit multiple targets too lol... I see lightening kill rogues behind me really living up to its real time reputation lol

[geeman75]

I agree with you Zeus completely.
I'm glad they are finally going to show some love to tanks but this won't help much at all...

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk

[rustygun]

Just let jug be like hitting a brick wall we still have tons of weaknesses to exploit deflect DMG on jugg is also another idea... Dont nerf us please I was just about to strip my tank and invest in mage..

[Kakashis]

God, I twink as a tank at 33 with the best gears but quit because the jug could be broken so easily by rogues who can one shot crit through 25% The only thing this is going to do at that level will be to heal 200 less hp and still the jug breaks. Either make the cool down a bit shorter or make the % that it heals a bit higher or make the jug last longer. You're not really helping warriors other than nerfing the low level twinks. In fact at 46, you're roughly the same as now which is no improvement at all.

[rustygun]

If this adjustment is about PvP and/or twink warriors being OP, then feel free to disregard this post.

However, I honestly don't believe that changing Jugg is a viable way to "fix" the warrior situation in PvE, which is the main concern players have with class balance at the moment.

The entire problem with warriors in PvE is that they slow down runs immensely, they find it increasingly difficult to hold aggro, and skills that should be blocking boss windups are no longer doing that. I don't see warriors in PvE having any issues with lack of armour or health, making this adjustment irrelevant for that aspect of the game.

The way the Juggernaut taunt is set up just doesn't work in a situation where you are supposed to be holding aggro against high damage, fast-hitting companions (rogues & mages). The length of the cooldown also makes this skill impractical at best in PvE.

I think it would be better to give chest splitter a proper reach and allow it to block windups again, and possibly give windmill back some of its original oomph and have it strike 5 mobs not 3, or else throw taunt on Vengeful Blood.

Another option would be to make it so that if a warrior is present, the party has 50% immunity to the debilitating effect of the map - (this would be stuns in Ren'Gol or poison pools in Shuyal, etc.)

Good point too pve aspect need consideration and yes I dont need excess armor in pve but I feel useless in party And yes Chest Spliter Is a Tank aim shot but it have no aim... you'll miss target would be better if you still auto hit without letting go of joystick this handicap allow target to gain unreachable distance expect to miss %50 of the time

[rustygun]

God, I twink as a tank at 33 with the best gears but quit because the jug could be broken so easily by rogues who can one shot crit through 25% The only thing this is going to do at that level will be to heal 200 less hp and still the jug breaks. Either make the cool down a bit shorter or make the % that it heals a bit higher or make the jug last longer. You're not really helping warriors other than nerfing the low level twinks. In fact at 46, you're roughly the same as now which is no improvement at all.

Yes seems to be the case here..

[rustygun]

As long as a tank heal HP should be fully restored like rogue and mage I let my HP drop %2 on day heal and after heal cycle complete with overtime heal I'm still short by %10 I have to wait until CD and heal again

[Zeus]

These are good discussion points. If the primary concern is also the PvP effect of armor debuffs from Rogues and some PvE content, I have another idea that may help.

A charged Juggernaut provides immunity to armor debuff effects and removes any current armor debuffs from themselves would help, as an added component to one of the upgrade skills. This, in theory would alleviate the major down point to this change similar to what Zeus is describing. The casting warrior would receive the immunity for the duration of the buff, and nearby allies could receive a one off cleansing of armor reducing debuffs. It could be reapplied of course by a follow up aimshot, but could prove circumstantially relevant.

A secondary consideration with the scale increase per level is possible, however some numbers would have to be crunched to see what that would look like at an exaggerated level cap.

Good thoughts, keep the feedback coming.

This is great, however as mentioned before...the values you are currently proposing still need to be buffed up by 5-10% IMO. Otherwise, it just makes lower level tanks too weak and only fixes end game.

So, tanks would essentially gain a 400ish armor boost, depending on their level of armor while jugg being close to the static numbers it used to have (at end game). I think, this, will be an appropriate buff for tanks. It is not as if this makes tanks unkillable, it just makes them almost unstoppable while on this skill which is the intention of a skill named juggernaut.

Anyone looking to kill a tank now will have to adjust their skill timings to know when to do damage and when not to.

On PVE side, I think this would be welcome as well.

+1 for me.

Thanks for taking my advice into account!

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

I don't find this any useful! We were asking for buff not a debuff

[extrapayah]

i'm with thundrys with how juggernaut's health scale by giving an initial value and then scale based on character level (in his example he gave 100 health as initial value, probably a bigger value is prefered, but hey, i don't pvp much), and agree to some degree about AS, AS make rogue a spellcaster, but probably it is what make AL's rogue unique

also, a bit out of topic though, any skill that has a fixed value (not percentage) should scale by character's level, because devs made the skills' mana consumption grow by level, imagine how bad it is a character that don't spec a full primary attribute with this system (mana consumption increase per character level, but effectiveness is not, depends purely on stat)

and yes with only change in how jugg scale its hp buffs, it won't help solving warrior's problem in pve, but the consideration in the original was all about pvp, so pve players can't say much about it, because how different balance in pvp compared to pve

[debitmandiri]

How about scale with hp ?
15% hp tap, 20% hp charged.
Armor value is too low.
And plus that armor reduction debuff immunity. Come on, warrior should be a real tank, a front wall

[Mariohekmat]

Jugg should be unbreakable and the CD time is really really high make it 30 sec at least warriors needs major skills buff i cant vs a rogue or mage these days lol cuz jugg is breaking so fast even in clash and pve my opinions are
1- jugg be unbreakable lasts for 15 sec and CD time 30sec
2- vb do more dmg in pve and applies to near by allies so warrriors can be back to be pve again , and in pvp vb is needed in clashes for mana or when warrior vs warrior vb should give +1k hp if charged and %5 higher dmg than it gives now or %2.5
3- skyward smash this skill is being useless atm u cant use it in pvp cuz ull die fast without feeble
4- windmill is a pve skill it should do more dmg and less CD time
5- chest spilter is a good skill but it misses targets alot so it should be like skyward never misses a target
6- rallying cry was a usefull skill before cuz of the speed the gives in clash but not anymore cuz of nekro basicly its a dead skill Let rallying cry give u an armor buff that applies to ur allies + higher speed than nekro for both pvp/pve

[Metoxx]

I was thinking on what if Jugg hp bonus demand on the armor value...
Example: 2500 armor gives the exact 2500hp as well.
Normal skill tap gives 50% and charged gives 100% hp bonus...

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk

[Ravager]

There are many great suggestions listed here but its hard to say which will be optimal. What matters to me is that after these changes are applied, please don't abandon this thread in case we need to adjust/revise things.

[Jazzi]

I can't comment at all on the low levels as I don't do pvp at twink levels. For endgame the proposed change seems like a nerf to the tanks. Especially the ones with low to mid gear. The latter have more like 2200-2500 armour and as a result will get less health than they are currently getting. Further they are the ones who actually have problems in PvP, not those maxed and skilled warriors. The maxed and skilled ones can hold for a long time!

Some people here point out the perma debuff of aimed shot. However all pets used in PvP nowadays have 15% or 20% armour reduction on their passive. In those not organised PvP games in TDM most people just resort to using a nekro, or a mari, or a singe. In many games I have encountered 4 or 5 nekros on each team. I am 100% sure that the 20% armour reduction of nekro's passive attack is active 100% of the time. So changing how aimed shot works won't help at all. In this regard giving charged jugg an immunity to armour debuffs is a great idea! Imho considering how long the cooldown is maybe the skill should get a short stun and slow immunities too.

Moving on those changes won't help the warrior class in PvE, which is the part of the game where the whole class is lacking the most. The only way for a warrior to be really useful and not to slow the pt is to use the new lvl 46 mythic. However the efficiency of the weapon is increased by using more attacking skills, thus making using jugg contra-productive, as it would reduce the number of procs (let alone the super long cooldown). In this regards I think that additional changes to the warrior class are needed.

P.S. I have done extensive testing in planar tombs and elite Ren'gol (only grotto and mines) and contrary to what some players claim in this thread a skilled warrior with the new weapon is about as fast as a mage with maxed gear (40%+ crit maxed mages are still faster though).

[greekAL]

isnt bad idea at all if dont count the armor debuffs! and i think a cd at 30 sec would be perfect! atm all the chars hv small cd and 45 secs of jugger is a bit pain! ty for trying to fix again our tanks :)

[Befs]

First. I'm not sure cara is getting a proper thanking for at least trying.

Second, here is my summary of additions.

1. What Zues said, would be best as charge = no debuffs

2. Party damage buff based off of how low tank's health is (lower = more damage) not going more than a 30% buff

3. More aggressive scaling

4. Shorter cd!!

[greekAL]

First. I'm not sure cara is getting a proper thanking for at least trying.

Second, here is my summary of additions.

1. What Zues said, would be best as charge = no debuffs

2. Party damage buff based off of how low tank's health is (lower = more damage) not going more than a 30% buff

3. More aggressive scaling

4. Shorter cd!!

i agree with 1/3/4 but the 2 only for pve right?

[Excuses]

It took me a while to understand because this is just a nerf, not a buff at all..

We already have 500 hp then now we will get lower hp, even we make it better it's gonna be about 100 more hp out of 10k hp. I don't see any point of this change.

Many people already suggested good points.
Hp scaled by hp sound fair too me too. But then 1.6% will be little bit too high. (because 15lv can already have 3k hp and then there will be no difference in twinks too. No point to have this change. Should be 0.06 on no charge and 0.12 on charge. Or 0.5/1)
Immune armor reducion is a good idea too for pvp.

But if we are talking about pve, I would rather want to have 50% AOE armor reducion on jugg and 30-35 sec cool down for pve only. And also scaled vg for more dmg and balance.
The problem is that tank dmg is too low to slow down runs. Simply having more hp will not help anything here.



So I would suggest jugg to give hp and armor based on dmg, not armor or hp.
Just let it give pure dmg stat to ho and armor.

100 dmg = 100 hp + 100 armor
1k dmg = 1000 hp + 10000 armor.

And give tanks dmg mythic weapons with fair armor(100-150)

This way, low lvl tanks will not be immortal, and end game tanks will get fair survivability with fair dmg.

Don't be afraid to give tanks little dmg. Even with 1k dmg tanks don't make enough dmg to make the run faster because actual dmg outcome is bugged.
Rogue should have high dmg, crit and Dodge, not hp and armor. But now they do so they don't need tanks.
But tanks still have no dmg and not even fair survivability. In the same way, giving tanks dmg will be standardized classes. No rogues and mages will want to lose their armor and hp. Don't take it from them but give tanks dmg so they can play pve and get some kills in pvp.

[Arrowz]

This is great, however as mentioned before...the values you are currently proposing still need to be buffed up by 5-10% IMO. Otherwise, it just makes lower level tanks too weak and only fixes end game.

So, tanks would essentially gain a 400ish armor boost, depending on their level of armor while jugg being close to the static numbers it used to have (at end game). I think, this, will be an appropriate buff for tanks. It is not as if this makes tanks unkillable, it just makes them almost unstoppable while on this skill which is the intention of a skill named juggernaut.

Anyone looking to kill a tank now will have to adjust their skill timings to know when to do damage and when not to.

On PVE side, I think this would be welcome as well.

+1 for me.

Thanks for taking my advice into account!

Juggernaut is already absurd at lower lvls atleast for pvp. It should be weaker at lower lvls and stronger at higher lvls, hence the scaling.

On my old lvl 18 warrior, had 4k health and 800 armor, the rest of my team died and I popped jugg. I literally survived 1v5 for 10 seconds while the rest of my team regrouped and we wiped the enemy after that. And this was before nekro shield.

I agree with the armor reduction immunity tho. I think if jugg is going to give armor or reflect dmg or some of the other things people have proposed, there needs to be seperate buffs for pve and pvp. Juggernaut giving armor and reflecting dmg would be ridiculous in pvp

[Niixed]

The Mage buffs came due to aimed shot's capabilities. Nerf that and everything else has to go backwards as well. Don't forget that lightning hits pretty dang hard these days too - enough to one combo me.

Bah. I removed the AS comment from my original post too late...

I don't necessarily advocate nerfing AS, more that its mechanics should be put under real scrutiny in relation to class balance and overall game balance. Like Jugg, AS seems like a skill designed for the game in its infancy. Insufficient thought was put into scalability. Part of the problem with AS is that crit is also tied to dexterity which means it's ever-increasing. How close are we to having critical values for engame rogues reach 100% if they haven't already? What's the point of having a critical stat if rogues always crit all of the time? Crit is just one issue though...

I could go on, but I wont because I want to respect the original subject of the thread.

[twoxc]

all the feed back are great and all but this still doesn't seem like it's gonna change warrior game play in PVE in any way. warrior players want to be wanted and needed in PVE and farm faster and better, not survivability in PVP. To me PVP is a GIVEN not a MUST HAVE. Everyone want to farm and earn gold faster and get rich to work toward their gears to improve their stats in equipments, such as the glinstone set and enjoy the bonus of it etc etc.

I agreed with Serancha, warrior need to hold aggro better and need something to drastically to make them wanted to speed up the farming process. need more party BUFF stuff with great perks that they are a must have in party.

I'm sure with great skills and perks that come with warrior will also change the whole game play with record and such, which will also be great as the record board will then spread among all 3 classes require to set best time rather then just mainly rogues. it's for the greater good, rather then just PvP changes which is still just a GIVEN to me. it's something one goes in and play pvp when the farming are in a downtime or one just get tired and need a short break from aggressively farming.

just my two cents xD.

[Tatman]

Imo, this looks like it's being suggested with one sole purpose - to nerf (ok, "balance") the low level twink tanks. I agree it's ridiculous down there with unkillable tanks and such, especially with some of these new moronic pets like the fake sns, but is this really the main issue with the warrior class at the moment? As proposed, I find this a useless change for endgame tanks in both pvp and pve.

[mesalin]

Hmmm i like the idea of make jugg better. I like most of suggestions here.
And of course i have to say my 2 cent hihi
First longer duration or just less CD. Now CD is 45 sec... It's pretty much, and duration? 10-15 sec? I not sure cause it has been months since i don't use my warrior and i miss him:( but not going onto it.
So my suggest is to make cool down similar or same to VB, of/ and similiar duration. It will help tanks to take aggro better and more often with less CD and better duration. As for debuff , I like remove impairing effect i would like to add something like remove debuffs like community said above :D
I don't see how this based on armor could help and in this point i don't like that idea. It should stay like it is now.
Hmmm how about add 10% armor buff for jugg? Well well don't make it too op but it maybe will help endgame warriors in PvP, don't hide it its true that rogue break jugg so fast.
And about pve i would like to see this taunt effect will have better aoe and it will appears more often. Hmmm about this " self heal" i noticed it works sometimes in endgame and yeah its nice, idk how about twinks any tested? If yes then share if it work ;-)
I happy sts will finally do something about warriors! Thanks!

<Forgiveness>

[Maarkus]

Hi Carapace,

I just want to say THANK YOU for creating this thread, and for the attention you and the team are putting to fix the Juggernaught skill Issue , it is much appreciated and we hope it will have great results.

Also i want to thank you for the quick response in fixing the Glintstone Myth Set Axe Throw Skill Bonus, it was unexpected and was a pleasant surprise.

Sincerly,
Maarkus

[IMadara]

hmm cool...

[Desoulad]

So your basically nerfing jug for all levels. If anything it needs buffed 50% at high level and reduced 50% at low. Maybe reduced cooldown also to make it more helpful. Just my experience.

[Upperbound]

Wow now they gonna NERF tanks :D Nice reaction STS-style :D

[ueveotadeo]

First of all, ty for finally starting a real discussion about this issue!

Now to the point, those chances wont help in anything. If We are talking only about Jugger id say to do this:
-make the CD time faster;
-forget the HP buff upgrade, make it an AOE Armor reduction (at least a but higher than Rogues one, or else no point in this)
-make the taunt intervalo shorter (4s at max....id say 2s if charges)
-make an AOE that would increase ur pt dmg

If the discussion is about all skills id take into considerariam what serancha said about windmill and CS.

Also as twoxc said, this is mainly a PVE game, so lets keep the focus in it

[geeman75]

Jugg should be unbreakable and the CD time is really really high make it 30 sec at least warriors needs major skills buff i cant vs a rogue or mage these days lol cuz jugg is breaking so fast even in clash and pve my opinions are
1- jugg be unbreakable lasts for 15 sec and CD time 30sec
2- vb do more dmg in pve and applies to near by allies so warrriors can be back to be pve again , and in pvp vb is needed in clashes for mana or when warrior vs warrior vb should give +1k hp if charged and %5 higher dmg than it gives now or %2.5
3- skyward smash this skill is being useless atm u cant use it in pvp cuz ull die fast without feeble
4- windmill is a pve skill it should do more dmg and less CD time
5- chest spilter is a good skill but it misses targets alot so it should be like skyward never misses a target
6- rallying cry was a usefull skill before cuz of the speed the gives in clash but not anymore cuz of nekro basicly its a dead skill Let rallying cry give u an armor buff that applies to ur allies + higher speed than nekro for both pvp/pve
I agree 100% jug should be unbreakable, and cool down is ridiculously long...

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk

[ueveotadeo]

It is a PVE game but warriors should have a chance in PVP too right? Now they get their jugg broken even faster than before because of new mythic gun/bow

I agree with u, dont get me wrong.

I just said that about PVE because i think it will be rly hard to balance both things for warrior, at least at the begining.
That being the case i think first tackle PVE issues, which is the main cause We are having this conversation

[Youngwezzy209]

Please just lower the cd..cd is killing me more than jugg being broken in a clash

[Dalmony]

What causes a warrior to be left out of PVE runs is a complex issue to solve but the level of health I would have thought would be one of the last things to be tweaked. Essentially at the moment, there is no class who is able to "hold" aggro for other party members, nor is there any class who can buff party members in any spectacular way. In any given party, a mob will constantly target the player doing him the most damage. This could either be focused on the highest damage dealer in the party, or just swing between all 4 party members if they are all spreading even damage across all mobs. The tank is rarely if ever able to do this job for his party.

Since the tank basically brings nothing particular or uniquely "tanky" to a run.... warriors have essentially been relegated to "a really rubbish dps class," we could think of them, in pve runs, as the equivalent of a badly specced rogue. Giving them more health (even if the values are tweaked) isn't really going to fix this.

In my mind, warriors need a three step program, requiring community feedback after each step:

1. What they need first and foremost is to be given back their ability to taunt the mobs, and hold the aggro for enough time for it to actually make a difference.

This means either totally rethinking the way aggro works in the game, or fixing taunt skills so that they hold the aggro of all mobs taunted for a fixed amount of time (for example... taunt holds aggro of mobs hit by the skill for 10 seconds with a x% chance every second for each mob to lose it's "taunted" status. This could be a static number, or it could be something like a 100% hold for the first 3 seconds, and then have the chance to lose "taunted" status increase every second for the remaining seconds.) Obviously the time frames here would need to be worked out by someone more capable than myself.)

2. Of course, once the taunt issues are fixed the next logical step would be to look at whether warriors currently have enough health to be able to survive holding such large amounts of aggro. At this point, warrior health values and the health granted by skills/upgrades would be tweaked to mould the warrior to be able to withstand (with correct skill management) the respectable amount of dmg they are now theoretically absorbing for their parties.

3. Once warriors can once again taunt mobs and hold the aggro, and can do it without being one hit and dying (not having adequate hp to balance the taunt would negate the whole purpose of taunting), one could look at whether this alone has been enough to get them back on the PVE scene. If it isn't (and likelihood is that it won't) one could look at giving them some party boosters on their upgrades.

This would mean considering options things like the one mentioned here where jugg would cleanse armor debuffs, or something like an X% crit boost for 2-3 seconds in pve only, or a X% increase of primary stat for a 2-3 seconds.

Thanks for posting this.... it means a lot to the community to know this is being looked at :)

[hallowring]

[QUOTE=Thundyrz;2319323]Juggernaut's lengthy cooldown means it is essentially a single-use skill in any given pvp battle. It's great to see the health boost portion skill finally be made scalable. My concern with attaching the scale to the armor value (other than the ridiculous permanent aimed shot debuff mentioned by Madnex) is that it would end up being confusing. Players
would be stuck having to
make a complex
calculation to determine
the actual benefit to them
personally. It may be less interesting, but I support the level scalar where the health benefit is based on level. Straightforward is better when you're spec-ing in game, both for new players and veterans.

Another thought is that it seems disruptive, unfair and upsetting to take away almost all of the expected benefit that shark (lower level pvp) warriors have had for years. If this change had been made during the level 26 cap you'd hear justified accusations that STS was nerfing warriors. Imagine the outcry retroactively... yikes! I thin

+1 l

[Majin Vineet]

Hello everyone!

I have put together an idea on how to modify the Juggernaut ability for the future of AL based on the communities desire to see changes. Given the nature of this change, we feel it wise to discuss it openly beforehand and see if the community likes the idea as much as we do.

Please leave constructive feedback in the thread below!

The Concerns

From my perspective and understanding, the Juggernaut ability has.....300 HP or 500 HP boost.......


The planned adjustment is to grant the warrior a maximum HP boost that scales based on your armor value.........


143232

The final level 46 entry here denotes more "end game" gear. Mythic and arcane gear compared to store bought legendary gear at 46.

[...,..
So, thoughts?


You r trying to help high lvl warriors by reducing skills power??
c'mon how many of warriors have 3000k+ armor??
most of warriors have 2.5k armor(including pets etc) which means boost will be 250 Hp which is surely lesser then present condition.

pls rethink...
its gonna b completely useless for 98-99% warriors.... yes if u r concerned for remaining 1-2% warriors who has all kinfd f arcane mythic stuffs with nekro etc then this idea rocks !

thanks...

[Mucsi]

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/11/14/6962c275adbbc53672c23c15d9020ced.jpg

Here is the problem, nekro removes 40% incoming damage overall, I think a pet shouldn't be better than an important skill. Here is my advice for this juggernaut issue:

Lv1-15: 500hp, 5% armor boost, and 30% remove incoming damage
Lv16-25: 550hp, 7% armor boost, 30% remove incoming damage
Lv26-35: 600hp, 8% armor boost, 30% remove incoming damage
Lv36-40: 750hp, 12% armor boost, 35% remove incoming damage
Lv41-46: 850hp, 16,5% armor boost, 45% remove incoming damage

It's my solution for this: scale skills.. Jugger makes op twinks, but at endgame it's just useless.. Warriors have 8500-9000hp.. Doesn't matter if there is an extra 500 or not..

Any thoughts?

[Skvll]

I was thinking on what if Jugg hp bonus demand on the armor value...
Example: 2500 armor gives the exact 2500hp as well.
Normal skill tap gives 50% and charged gives 100% hp bonus...

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk
This idea seems more simpler to do but that maybe too op, maybe half that would work better for example 2500 armor gives 1250 hp ...etc I really like your idea

[Metoxx]

This idea seems more simpler to do but that maybe too op, maybe half that would work better for example 2500 armor gives 1250 hp ...etc I really like your idea
Comparing to pvp rogue aim shoot still can break through those tons of hp and armor even this way... tbh sts shud find other way to buff warriors because even if jug will have fixed but still 70% of ppl wont replace vb for jugg

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk

[Skvll]

Imo jugg should be a like how metoxx explained but a little less powerful . And in addition to that.
Possibly combining veng and jugg together as one skill so we can absorb dmg, deal dmg, hold aggro and recover mana in one skill based off our str and armor
I feel it'll give warriors more variety of skill choices for pvp and pve in regards to attack skills. Possibly adding a new skill to choose from for veng being combined for example a skill like.
Deflection
-25s cooldown deflecting 45% of the enemies attacks for 7s
-a chance to stun attacker(s) off of deflected attacks,
- every hit deflected will taunt the enemies/ knock back
- increase duration to 10s

[hallowring]

skvll has a good conclusion and thought i like it +1 skvll

[rustygun]

I do like the idea of removing all debuff when on Juggernaut imunne to armor reduce etc no breaking in 3-4 sec or less when we have to nekro heal and jug same time to last 4-5 sec it sucks... Also add some deflecting attack hitting a brick wall your fist it should hurt.. that's what a Juggernaut is a moving brick wall with iron and reinforced steel.. You heal first mages knock out your heal no bubble jug first it break heal+jug still weak if no nekro you die just the same so no room for other pets like singe I pay 14mil for that pet I would like to use it too a pve geared rogue or mage could jump into PvP no pvp experience and start farming me. My friend got new mystic set for tank call me to help him gang a rogue without set because he/we tanks are out match by mages and rogues... And this tank in question could hold his own LVL 36...41.. Lvl 41 was hard win like 3 out of 10 but now 46 feel like its open season on tanks and running to survive is only option ); even if max geared run or die or be the scum of AL "tanks gangsters have to gang to survive they weak paper!" Well I tell my friend this person new never seen him before only gang who gang me or if they rude, online bully or trash others best leave map stand as one circle dont move and if he attk he take on both of us not wise to atk a group of people give them all reason to gang you well the rogue was smart :) that makes me happy....... I know to a lot off pve players PvP is a nut house but its a place of quick reflex, strategy, good judgement and team work at time.. Quick assessment of situation is also vital to your survival.. I always enjoy a good fight When skills determine winning.. On tank I'm taking a knife to a gun fight..

[Cheif]

Just a -1 from me.

[Energizeric]

Just a couple of comments I'd like to make:

1) If you are going to base the values of Juggernaut on armor values and you are concerned at all about twink PvP, please fix the Squeakems 'n Squish pet. Currently the description says +100 armor, but the pet itself is giving +250 armor. I don't have this pet on any of my toons, but this is what I have been told. This extra armor value is making warriors almost impossible to kill at lower levels, and if Juggernaut will now be based on armor value as well, this needs to be fixed. I don't have a problem with the bonus being +250 armor at end game, but at lower levels it needs to be less. I think a better solution would be for this pet to give a percentage armor bonus, like perhaps +20% armor. That way it will scale to level better.

2) I never have understood why buffs and debuffs override each other instead of being cumulative. If a buff gives +20% armor and a debuff gives -30% armor, then the end result should be -10% armor. This would make more sense. As the game has progressed over the past 3 years, between elixirs, special gems, pets and passive skills, we have more and more bonuses that are being combined together, and it has been a mess trying to figure out how to make the pieces fit together without one overriding the other and one or more bonuses being wasted. Please just make them add (or subtract) together. Yes, if this is done we may create some imbalance, but then we can make adjustments later on to fix it. At least it will make some sense and will no longer be a big mystery to most players.

[davidvilla]

Scaling per group of level is what sts has to do at the moment. If juggernaut stays as it is then ofc warriors will stay as dominant class at low level with their solid 500 hp heal. Keep in mind that vengeance heals 450 as well. Beside that there's heal horn for further heal. Basically, warriors can just sit at a cornor healing itself doing nothing at low levels below 10. It is quite pathetic.

However, if we implement this strategy then it might solve those issues:
Level 1-5 Armor 2.5% heal 200
Level 6- 10 Armor 5% heal 250 hp
Level 11-15 Armor 7.5% heal 300hp
Level 16-20 Armor 10% heal 350 hp
Level 21-25 Armor 12.5% heal 400 hp
Level 26-30 Armor 15% heal 450 hp
Level 31-35 Armor 17.5% heal 500 hp
And so on

[Arachnophobik]

As jugg is being discussed here I believe that a pve boost on warriors should be put pn another thread. Not here. More taunts on juggernaut will only fix a very small thing which is the warriors being able to actually hold aggro. But the truth is, even if they could hold aggro, most people will still prefer rogue/mage party because its faster that way. We still wont see tanks on the elite pve lb. And while it may be true that not all people would run for lb anyways, everyone likes their runs fast. Just look at the last few threads here about people looking for an arena pt. Its always rogues that they're looking for. And when you go to arena on pug you will usually end up with two or more tanks, and people saying "too many tanks" and ask you to go out. Why cant there be "too many mages" or "too many rogues"? The ideal fix would be as i believe qwas suggested before by Zeus, was a class party bonus where the party has extra buffs when a tank is on the team. Just my 2¢.

[Killian229]

Add level requirements for certain Skills Warriors need greater damg or a weapon damage buff.absolutely not cool how much tanks are not needed if certain builds are running a elixer.alienate people that way.imo,take away health boosts from jug and add damage reduction or slight weapon damage skill(.nothing major but enough to make all ends happy.you guys can do it..been loving your work since Mar2011.gl guys.

[rustygun]

Add level requirements for certain Skills Warriors need greater damg or a weapon damage buff.absolutely not cool how much tanks are not needed if certain builds are running a elixer.alienate people that way.imo,take away health boosts from jug and add damage reduction or slight weapon damage skill(.nothing major but enough to make all ends happy.you guys can do it..been loving your work since Mar2011.gl guys.

I'd prefer have the HP boost frankly I'm not comfortable with DMG reduce It would a better suggestion instead of dmg reduce add dodge... But still tanks were build to take hits and if tanks dodge then mage gona get hit they would have lowest at this point so this too is a bad idea.. Obsorb DMG and send it back to attacker is another idea

[Andrés Fernández]

It looks nice, no more inmortals in pvp, but it will get useless for pve, right?

[Skvll]

So is sts making jugg more breakable? That's what it seems like so far even though it's supposed to be more
Balanced. But how often do sts really see super low lvls using jugg? As of right now jugg can still break jugg works on a 50% chance to self heal and on a 45 second cd
I'm not complaining about the current jugg skill but if sts is gonna change somethings about jugg (nerf) even though it's not perfect and it still has its flaws that we've accepted . Reduce the cool down atleast. And remove rallying cry and give us something equally useful to warriors . I'm going off topic just to say one more thing. .. Sts get rid of the skills that isn't commonly used and create skills that'll make players feel limitless with skill choices in pvp and pve for all classes. Pvp seems limited to certain skills like, this and that is a must have type of skill to do good in pvp let us help you guys make votes on new skill designs ...idk why bother giving us free respec weekends when we will most likely resort back to our old builds zzzzz. I don't care what the community says about my opinions I'm only concerned with sts devs seeing this.

[mesalin]

#SaveJuggernaut
#SaveTanks
Why nerf jugg instead of buff it? Huh.
So many awersome suggestions here about jugg. Hope sts will use some of them

<Forgiveness>

[JandelMan]

To hold agro in PvE and actually be useful to a pt and get invites to elites this build allows total mob/agro control. Switch from Skysmash to Axe throw on bosses 143412

[Oursizes]

To hold agro in PvE and actually be useful to a pt and get invites to elites this build allows total mob/agro control. Switch from Skysmash to Axe throw on bosses 143412

And then you go in with the new glintstone weapon and die because you remember you need to use jugg in order to spam health pots and keep losing gold but... yea either way lol

[Froxanthar]

Suggestion,

On Juggernaut last skill upgrade,

Taunting nearby foes every 1.5 sec for 15 seconds. When the taunt is over, it explodes ( like glintstone aegis ) taunting nearby enemies and heal the user to full HP. [emoji7]

[JandelMan]

Yeah this pve build I've used for ages now. It does chew up the pots abit. I used to love jugg for keeping me alive but once your amour and health are high enough it becomes fairly easy to stay alive and tank without it. However I'm running 9k health and close to 3k amour. For lower geared tanks to stay alive jugg is must have.

To hold agro and tank effectively, jugg definitely needs something extra that taunts over time. Some good suggestions above.

I say, give all skills in the games a extra skill point slot so 6/6 in jugg 6/6 vb 6/6 etc etc. Give everyone more options and create greater diversity in builds at 46 everyone has enough points to throw around.

[Oezheasate]

Hello everyone!

I have put together an idea on how to modify the Juggernaut ability for the future of AL based on the communities desire to see changes. Given the nature of this change, we feel it wise to discuss it openly beforehand and see if the community likes the idea as much as we do.

Please leave constructive feedback in the thread below!

The Concerns

From my perspective and understanding, the Juggernaut ability has two main concerns. One is the early game PvP implications associated with a direct 300 HP or 500 HP boost, as this is no joke at early levels. The other concern is that higher end players see not as much benefit as maximum health climbs to the 3, 4 and 5 thousand mark. As more levels become available and more health as a result we will begin to see the bonus of this skill dwindle until it is deemed worthless from diminishing returns which we don't want to see.

The Adjustment

The planned adjustment is to grant the warrior a maximum HP boost that scales based on your armor value. This is more interesting than a flat % of max health, or % based on level scalar in that it now has a synergy potential with armor stated items, jewels, and pets. As a % of armor obviously it will be subject to increases based on external buffs and the like provided by other player skills and pet activated abilities where appropriate. Here are a few examples of how the health bonus would scale based on your level and approximate armor values.


Tap - 10% Armor as health
Charge - 16.5% Armor as health


Note that this is representative without jewels of any kind, without pets, and using the 5/5 Armor bonus passive and legendary gear. This 5% armor boost seems like a few points well spent and obviously complimentary given this change. A sword and shield used for the weapon slot to maximize armor from gear on hand. All gear used was purchased through the Store packs as a baseline. Again, all armor values here are more or less approximate based on testing and not a mean, average, or other related data point.

143232

The final level 46 entry here denotes more "end game" gear. Mythic and arcane gear compared to store bought legendary gear at 46.

Expectations

What we anticipate this change to do, is provide players with new combinations of pets/gear/jewels in order to find their comfort zone related to this skill as it applies to their play style and net health benefit. We also expect it to have an effect on low level PvP more than high level PvP, and our focus is on the whole system and not specific brackets of play. The potential range given these values as you can see still puts players in the 300 HP and 500 HP bonus like current Juggernaut does once you approach max level, with some wiggle room based on personal gear and related choices. As higher levels become available the amount of HP potential will continue to grow appropriately.

So, thoughts?

frigging finally thanks for acknowledging the issue and attempting to fix it

[xEnterprise]

Taunting in this game is utter garbage lol. I mean ive never seen a warrior maintain aggro in Arena. Sure you can taunt but a second later the boss goes off chasing other dpsers. The bosses always goes back and forth between the warrior and other dpsers.

The only skill capable of maintaining aggro is Chest Spliter but the warriors might end up dead because of the melee red zones.

They need to make the taunted mobs permenantly target the warrior for a set duration. Maybe Jugg can do that?

[Newcomx]

To hold agro in PvE and actually be useful to a pt and get invites to elites this build allows total mob/agro control. Switch from Skysmash to Axe throw on bosses 143412

IMO... VB is the best warrior skill.

[Killian229]

Thorns would be awesome.especially if we could get it to keep agro.guys your gunna have to put on level requirements for skills. Buff our crit so we can do some damage.or maybe charged jugg could add party crit hit damage.charged Juggernaut could add damage buff for party also.basically,you should add level requirements for certain skills to keep things fair in pvp and switch charged jugg bonus to a party buff(crit hit damage,thorns,weapon damage,damage %redirected to tank) to have the warrior wanted in parties.good ideas from everyone,keep em coming.listen to me stg...

[JandelMan]

Taunting in this game is utter garbage lol. I mean ive never seen a warrior maintain aggro in Arena. Sure you can taunt but a second later the boss goes off chasing other dpsers. The bosses always goes back and forth between the warrior and other dpsers.

The only skill capable of maintaining aggro is Chest Spliter but the warriors might end up dead because of the melee red zones.

They need to make the taunted mobs permenantly target the warrior for a set duration. Maybe Jugg can do that?

I can easily hold boss in arena using full taunt. Axe throw, horn, wirlwind and cs. After one skill is used another is ready. Rotation of cooldowns are good when no vb or jugg is used enabling you to maintain full focus of boss.

[Nepos]

Add damage reduction

[Devaux]

If so many warriors (not just warriors either. It's the same issue with every class!) are concerned about slot replacement for attack vs buffs...maybe it's time to introduce a fifth skill slot for all classes!

But as far as basing skill buff on armor % goes: twinks will just socket all armor gems and never go below -1% life especially ones fully geared with an arcane pet etc. unless there's a limit on the amount of armor per health buff for gems. Or maybe I'm completely wrong on this one! I'm all for decreasing low-end tankablity in pvp! he he he

[Killian229]

Rouge/mages should never take agro(given a good tanker)when a warrior is in the party.that's any RPG.To say,well,if you just have these skills you can keep agro to yourself,that forces people who are tanks at heart to choose only these skills to be an efficient soak.where does that leave our damage. Mages/rouges can solo maps way faster than Warriors.if your going to change Juggernaut, you should in turn balance out Warriors dps.not damage....dps.take away 500healthboost from Juggernaut and add something to the tune of % weapon damage as dps or take away all health boosts from Juggernaut(no one uses it besides the minority...) And add a party buff.learn from blizzard.tanks need party buffs.only way in this game,that people will want to play with Warriors.i find my runs significantly lengthening when Warriors come along(I don't judge,wouldn't want to be told to leave on my tank).they really don't offer ALOT.add warcry(or the like) to Warriors to buff others and instantly I can see warriors be welcome.think guys,all it takes is one end game Rouge running an elixer and there will be little use for warrior.I'm not against two different bonuses: 1for PvE 1for pvp.just because you wrecked before with this unbalanced skill,doesn't mean you have the right to it.Any gamer that cares enough to think about the numbers for all skills,could see this was op.I think we wanna hear what you guys have to say now with all these great ideas floating around.so we can collaborate.FYI:Warriors are the most loyal players.if you treat them nice

[Devaux]

learn from blizzard.

Amen. send the development team home with homework tonight = study Diablo's/wows warrior or pally class skills + buffs! They're spot on for balance so why not take that approach? Eh eh? It works for those platforms which are similar in many ways so why not incorporate their system of tanks?

[Skvll]

If we base jugg on armor and tanks starts stacking armor jewels and items. I'm pretty sure we tanks will lose out on our dmg which we will also be losing out on our heals per second to tryyyy to make jugg decent again like how it is now.
What's the point of jugg now cause it still can be broken. Sts is planning on making jugg weaker? Even though tanks been asking and suggesting for better skills zzz sts is giving us the opposite. Thanks sts it was a great bday surprise for us tanks lol.
Suggestion: leave jugg alone.... Not many low lvl use jugg cause it doesn't give mana and even if they do its only for 15s on a 45 second cool down ( if you don't want jugg being that reliable then remove it cause it's still not reliable the higher we go in lvls). Sts you already made it hard for tanks to get mana in pve because you tampered with veng. Sts give us a good reason to use rallying cry when we have pets that can do better than our skill. Just cause a few rogs can't wait 15s until jugg ends to kill us tanks you want to nerf jugg? Doing more dmg to us tanks than good. Bring more useful skills before you try messing with the skills we've used for so long. Don't fix what isn't broken sts. So many expansions and not any new skills but only changes to the old ones. I think you'll see less warriors the more updates or expansions sts brings cause it's becoming mundane cause lack of uniqueness to all the classes. We need to see character progression not more achievements not more pets and not more gear as sts main focus we need new skills not skill nerfs and skill updates. For all classes. @carapace I've played this game for 3 years and for 3 years all I've seen was nerfs/updates we want new skills to challenge ourselves and others don't make this mundane for another X amount of years...

[xEnterprise]

Ive played all 3 classes and i think warriors with all the disadvantages are still the most fun lol. Hope the Jugg improvement is good. Id give up my rogue to play a warrior then lol.

[Killian229]

Got to remember,they got to look to the future just like any developers.jugg loses some benefit s at earlier levels in game but gets greater as level cap persists.a one time fix here would be nice,but I'll take a work in progress over nothing.

Thorns! Come on guys whose with me?5% or 10%if charged(same CD ect.)returned damage to attacker.
It would help fix lower pvp(just run till CD...skill may be powered not op if you smart)and idk against mobs.should be good?if you guys can do that with this.what does anyone think?

[ueveotadeo]

Hi all,

First of all, I'd like to say that you guys made a great job with this new Warrior weapon, makes it easier to hold aggro.
That beeing said, I would like to say that all changes being suggested here won't benefit in anything the current situation regarding.

I believe that Carapace made this thread due to the several other threads made about the PVE situation, so I ask you politely to reply to this question:
Are we discussing tweaks that may lead to some improvement of the current PVE situation for Warriors or it is just a single adjustment to Juggernaut that will only benefit PVP?

If the answer is the former, that you started this due to PVE, let me suggest some points that would benefit much more:

-VB buffing entire Party, rogues get dex, mages get int, warr stay the same and crit buff to everyon (scalling properly according to level);
-Rally Cry giving a considerable amount of dmg reduction (curent one is a joke) and wider range;
-CS having a CHANCE to cancel windups(25% lets say);
-Windmill hitting more times;

Those would benefit us Warriors much more in regards to PVE runs. Also, the skills that, if the changes are accepted, would benefit entire PT, remember that Warrior is melee class while the others aren't, if the range is like Rally Cry the effects of those changes wont be as satisfying as it could be.

I really hope you can give us some feedback about where are we going with this changes Carapace, if it is just this only discussion about Juggernaut or you are considering some more tweaks, because honestly, juggernaut wont benefit us in anything regarding PVE.

[Volt]

Nerf tanks...

[Serillia]

Nerf tanks...

No, they too underpowered. You been hax'ing too long to realise <3

[Volt]

Nerf tanks...

No, they too underpowered. You been hax'ing too long to realise <3

Nerf Serillia...

[chummierfrog248]

Yes true when I'm going against rogue or tank I charge my heal and it would give me like little HP back and they will eat it all back up

[Killian229]

No more hp boost(been experimenting)nn that.1 time fix all(for PvP and PvE)is to add a reflects damage % in place.this should ease the complaints of Warriors not being able to keep agro.Someone with more al experience at end game shine some light on this idea(im newly converted to al/from pl)?Also,maybe modify the way/amount of threat a warrior can catch for PvE?reflects damage would in essence cause more threat,no?armor% is easy fix,need more of a variety with builds+effectiveness. Add a payed test server :) I'd pay to test for you guys!so we don't lose all the good rpgers,who understand mechanics(my tanks been level 17 for a loong time).rouges are to cheap if you got gold for pots.mage is most balanced char in the game(leaning very slightly to op).just my thoughts.it begins here with Juggernaut but doesn't stop on it for Warriors as a whole.

[Eldorado]

C'mon just do not let health counter <1 when juggernaut is active and implement the hp buff scalling up to 500 max. This is a great bonus already as even bosses cannot one hit the warriors. Plus make vb attract mobs as well ,also scales per level, and add bonus to members as well. No point in adding damage, damage reflect as it will cause imbalance to other classes.

[Oursizes]

C'mon just do not let health counter <1 when juggernaut is active and implement the hp buff scalling up to 500 max. This is a great bonus already as even bosses cannot one hit the warriors. Plus make vb attract mobs as well ,also scales per level, and add bonus to members as well. No point in adding damage, damage reflect as it will cause imbalance to other classes.

Yeah lets just have warriors run around in god mode for 15, kill a dps, run for 30s until cd.. You sound like janebella, get real

[Anil LK Joseph]

Im a rogue player right, but what I really want to see is more improvement on wars health at endgame...because there are mages with 6k health now and rogue with almost the same...wars now have almost 9k...3k difference is not enought. Rogues be criting 5k in one aim strike while wars hitting 1-2k in attacks ... Therefore warriors ain't gonna last long in pvp and for pve they perform weak ( as in their damage output towards mobs and bosses). All sts gotta do is bring down the CD of jugg... And bonus damage for about 5-8 seconds top and increase their crit as well because I know warrior still want crit like they would get from vb ... So atleast 15-20% crit for 5-7 seconds :)... Again I'm a rogue player. I just think that warriors die easy at endgame. A rogue would survive longer :/

[noobseller]

This skill I really hate it, why because of its ridiculous long CD, because its easily Breaking by rogues who even don't have to charge theirs skills *.*

honestly anything about Warrior Pve/Pvp skills/roles has been said already within 2 years.
dear sts just look those up and summarize it. anything else looks a bogus discussion

ps all those mage/rogues please keep out of this discussion because u have done more harm then good on any ideas how to balance ext...

[Caabatric]

the lack of dev responce makes this look like the mage buff
it will happen "eventually"

[Mejarogue]

I agree jugg will make thinks more vulnerable

[Deej]

The jug is really bad.

[procs]

so jugg is being nerfed or buffed? i play at lvl 15

[Oezheasate]

Jugg breaks to easily thats a fact, jugg shoulnt be unbreakable but i do expect that at 9k health and 2.94k armor, still working on those stats dont judge me, i shouldnt be fearing for every second rogue that comes along to be able to break my jugg in less than 5 secs.

[rustygun]

Jug instantly break when you get hit but a high DPS or 2 to say the least.. You jug and one fire..ball from a max mage stun and die before you recover..

[Moxin]

AL gives warriors impossible tasks and obselete/broken tools with which to attempt to do them. Tanks are a paper wall that mobs and rogues crash through with ease when they take a passing interest in them. I don't think any other class needs to use as many pots/ankh as a warrior does when they are actually doing their job. The only class with a defined role is the one tht rules AL and I don't think this is coincidental. When a Mages shield is a more effective tanking tool than juggernaut in endgame elite content it's game over for tanks. STS can nerf jugg (cause this proposed change is a nerf not a buff) all they like I don't think it will solve anything until it is not possible for mages/rogues to solo elite PVe content. In any case jugg is the last skill anyone uses in PVe unless they have pitiful armor and because of its infinite CD. This is more like a twink pvp nerf than a strategy to make tanks a part of elite PVe content. Make running with a tank either mandatory or give the Dps incentive to take a tank with them. This is only possible if running with a tank is faster than running with a full Dps party Or when it is no longer possible to kill mobs/bosses without a tank present. No one is going to take a tank along to momentarily remove armor debuff every 45 secs on a skill most tanks don't even have equipped. It's nice that this thread was created but the lack of moderator interest in it makes me feel like it's more of a pacifier than a real change.

[Carapace]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

[Oezheasate]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

Sounds great and will make my rogues vsing bouts less painful and frustratiing. When they break jugg after 4 seconds its scary.

[noisy]

Nice, please implement it as soon as possible.

[Zeus]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

This is exactly what is needed. Please make this happen!

[Midievalmodel]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

Wow this is a very well thought out jugg fix. I am thoroughly impressed by you Carapace. Thank you for your hard work on trying to balance things.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

This is awesome! Thank you. What about skill duration and its cooldown??

[Skvll]

Great idea! Please do something about rallying cry in the process.

[Luciano Lobo]

What about the cooldown? make it shorter please. This the main reason I don't use it in PvE. In PvP the improvements suggested lately are great, specially the armor increase bonus wich is wonderful. Are we gonna still have the ARMOR REDUCTION INVULNERABILITY during the skill or just because we have 20% armor bonus armor debuffs won't work. I remind that warrior itself has a armor debuff ability of 25% with AXE, so...? How this issues are gonna be solve?

[Gibson Lee]

more nerf on warrior!!! 3k armor useless with rogues ty so much sts good job!!! use your brains not pockets!

[Ravager]

2.5% hp regain seems quite low. For a warrior with 9500hp for example, that would only be 237hp. But with the other extras it may be decent. Rotating Nekro with juggernaut seems more logical now. Everyone is probably going to spec DOT off once again.

In pvp when I tested long ago, I think charged jugg only granted 450 hp due to the global pvp nerf rather than the 500 hp. Would the nerf be applied to this as well?

[rustygun]

This is awesome! Thank you. What about skill duration and its cooldown??


Yes what about the Cool down time?

[mesalin]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.
Finally something nice here!
Cara what about Duration and CD?

<Forgiveness>

[ueveotadeo]

So, after all this is all about pvp....

[Skvll]

Make jugg taunt ability regain mana every time we are hit by a monster or player. So we can at least choose between tanking with jugg or dealing dmg with veng....tired of relying on pots.

[Froxanthar]

Now all we need is the lower cooldown.

[ucupduyeh]

.FYI:Warriors are the most loyal players.if you treat them nice

U re dam right dude

[Zeus]

2.5% hp regain seems quite low. For a warrior with 9500hp for example, that would only be 237hp. But with the other extras it may be decent. Rotating Nekro with juggernaut seems more logical now. Everyone is probably going to spec DOT off once again.

In pvp when I tested long ago, I think charged jugg only granted 450 hp due to the global pvp nerf rather than the 500 hp. Would the nerf be applied to this as well?

True, but armor doubling practically and 65% jugg reduction aim should be hitting 1k or less under jugg effects.

[Pedgon]

2.5% hp regain seems quite low. For a warrior with 9500hp for example, that would only be 237hp. But with the other extras it may be decent. Rotating Nekro with juggernaut seems more logical now. Everyone is probably going to spec DOT off once again.

In pvp when I tested long ago, I think charged jugg only granted 450 hp due to the global pvp nerf rather than the 500 hp. Would the nerf be applied to this as well?

I was thinking about this upgrade too..2.5% HP seems very low actually, and with only 33% chance to proc..humm not sure about this being better than before!:distrust:

How about making it 5-7% with same 33% chance to proc, or change the chance to proc to 50-60% and maintain the 2.5% HP regain?

And I also think the cooldown should be reduced..coz 45 sec?? zzz too long..almost double time of the 2nd longest skill cd in game! =/ Make it 30-35 sec, this seems totally fair! As it is right now, tanks fight for 30 sec with 3 skills only, and we can't forget our attack skills have already long cooldowns, for example, skyward smash 4 sec and axe 7 sec.

The other suggestions for juggernaut are great, exactly what I've been saying, thank you! :cool:

[Bmwmsix]

Omg 7 pages about one broken skill? Lets not talk about cs *.%

Warrior need Dash on charging Cs!

Ps: Juggernaut is not be used either pve ( Cd is ridiculous anno 19Th century) nor pvp (because of one button no charge class)

[Carapace]

Make jugg taunt ability regain mana every time we are hit by a monster or player. So we can at least choose between tanking with jugg or dealing dmg with veng....tired of relying on pots.

Vengeful Blood is the skill which provides mana as a return, and we don't want to double dip the abilities.

[Zeus]

I was thinking about this upgrade too..2.5% HP seems very low actually, and with only 33% chance to proc..humm not sure about this being better than before!:distrust:

How about making it 5-7% with same 33% chance to proc, or change the chance to proc to 50-60% and maintain the 2.5% HP regain?

And I also think the cooldown should be reduced..coz 45 sec?? zzz too long..almost double time of the 2nd longest skill cd in game! =/ Make it 30-35 sec, this seems totally fair! As it is right now, tanks fight for 30 sec with 3 skills only, and we can't forget our attack skills have already long cooldowns, for example, skyward smash 4 sec and axe 7 sec.

The other suggestions for juggernaut are great, exactly what I've been saying, thank you! :cool:


With all the armor boost and whatnot, aimed shot will only be hitting 500-1k on critical hits. I would suggest if they are going to raise the HP return, then raise it to 3.5% and 50% chance to heal. Anything more is really pushing the capabilities of juggernaut so that a tank could alternate HoR and Juggernaut to survive even ridiculous onslaughts.

[extrapayah]

again, please consider using character's level as a part of calculation for any fixed value, please.

i think it is not okay for a skill to have increased mana comsumption each level, without gaining more effectiveness

thank you

[Pedgon]

With all the armor boost and whatnot, aimed shot will only be hitting 500-1k on critical hits. I would suggest if they are going to raise the HP return, then raise it to 3.5% and 50% chance to heal. Anything more is really pushing the capabilities of juggernaut so that a tank could alternate HoR and Juggernaut to survive even ridiculous onslaughts.

Yup, but I really think cooldown should be reduced..it's extremely long =/

[Carapace]

again, please consider using character's level as a part of calculation for any fixed value, please.

i think it is not okay for a skill to have increased mana comsumption each level, without gaining more effectiveness

thank you

It is, but it's indirectly referenced. The amount of armor you can acquire is scaled based on level, so in effect it is just not in an obvious way. This seems more complicated at first, however it provides many options moving forward on itemization in regards to the skill.

[hioo]

Make duration of juggernaut longer or decrease CD time. I'm glad to see warriors are being heard though.

[Oezheasate]

Make duration of juggernaut longer or decrease CD time. I'm glad to see warriors are being heard though.

Cooldown time is a big turnoff tbh

[extrapayah]

Vengeful Blood is the skill which provides mana as a return, and we don't want to double dip the abilities.

we should stick to strictly not create redundantly similar abilities IF we have access to all of the skills simultaneously... but with the strict rules you're trying to force players by giving only 4 active slots, and locking skills on cooldown, i don't think having one of the skill upgrade has similar aspect is a problem


It is, but it's indirectly referenced. The amount of armor you can acquire is scaled based on level, so in effect it is just not in an obvious way. This seems more complicated at first, however it provides many options moving forward on itemization in regards to the skill.

this indirect reference is way too heavily depended on gears... which i don't think a good idea. i prefer something like +50 as initial value + 5x char level + 10-15% of armor, which will make warrior's gear preferences vary greatly. variety is always good

[Pedgon]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

I've been thinking about "Second Wind" upgrade proposal, and I realized it CANNOT be like this! This upgrade it's what makes tanks alive for 15 sec (if jugger does not get broken), but, with this ridiculous HP regain (only 2.5%) and a lower chance to proc it, we will die for sure very quickly; doubling damage reduction percentage won't change anything if HP regain does not compensate damage taken, even if damage reduction was 75-80%, for example. On a PvP clash, for example, even with multiple hits, damage will still be higher than HP regain; and on 1x1, particularly vs rogue, juggernaut will not keep us alive for more than 6-8 sec for sure, and this if we "jugger" with high HP (60-70% at least), coz with low HP it will be a really fast death!

And here comes another problem..most of times tanks use juggernaut when we have less than 50% HP, sometimes we use it with very low HP (5-15%), and these "big" heals (sometimes 2500-3000 damaged HP with 1 hit - that's around 30% HP) when below 25% is what keep us alive; but with this new proposal for HP regain process, that will never happen again!! It will ruin the "meaning" of this upgrade on juggernaut; actually, it will ruin entire juggernaut skill purpose.

Even with 10% HP regain with 50% chance to proc, this problem mentioned above would still be happening, and that is a serious issue when "tanking"!

So, why not keep the current "Second Wind" as it is? Since the damage reduction and HP/armor boost will be much bigger, I don't think the constant "jugger broken" will be a problem anymore! Or even keep it same, with a slight change on minimum health requirement, instead of healing when below 25%, why not 30-35%? This, combined with the other changes you propose, will finally make juggernaut skill what is HAS to be!

And, please, take in consideration, the BIZARRE cooldown of 45 sec and a necessary change to 30-35 sec! (It will still be the longest cooldown in entire game!!)

Thank you!

[geeman75]

I want to say thank you for giving us warriors some love for a change.
Ok I've been following this thread for a while. I say why can't we address the 800 pound gorilla in the room? I work my tail off to get new mythic set and my stats droped including armor. Since I'm a tank it hurts to see that.
I know this is a thread on jug, but armor keeps getting talked about so thought it fitting to add...

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[Skvll]

Vengeful Blood is the skill which provides mana as a return, and we don't want to double dip the abilities. why can't you just combined both skills into one skill? And let us play with more than one attack skill? Veng and jugg combined and then have a attack skill set up like skyward smash and chest splitter and horn of renew. I think end game and other zones would have a chance against Rogs cause it seems that tanks have to have 5 skills and rotate between each one to survive in PvE and pvp. Just give classes a five skill slot then.

[Oezheasate]

why can't you just combined both skills into one skill? And let us play with more than one attack skill? Veng and jugg combined and then have a attack skill set up like skyward smash and chest splitter and horn of renew. I think end game and other zones would have a chance against Rogs cause it seems that tanks have to have 5 skills and rotate between each one to survive in PvE and pvp. Just give classes a five skill slot then.

Nononono it will benefit rogues and mages much more bugger off

[noisy]

All the proposed changes by carapace should be made except the change to second wind.

[Serillia]

How about you create a test server and we test things out there? You can have people making toons at various levels and experimenting with the proposed changes made to juggernaut in PvE and PvP. Carapace's post showed alot of consideration given to the inputs here while trying to balance the effect the skill has on class balance. But I see what Pedgon is trying to say at least from the PvP standpoint. The current version of the Seoncd Wind upgrade is what makes a tank able to stand 1v5 and take a pounding while the rest of his team regroups and catches up to him. Reducing the proc chance and amount of HP heal would impair this ability at least theoretically- unless we have a protected area and time in which to test this out and see if the proposed changes are viable. The talk is all well and good and people can all nod their heads here to the proposed changes but until we experience it first hand noone will know if its truly good or bad, and if you just throw all these changes into the game without proper player testing and it doesn't work out you'll have a painful time trying to rectify it while enduring the ire of countless dissatisfied tank players.

Hai Friend-Saf!

[Zeus]

I want to say thank you for giving us warriors some love for a change.
Ok I've been following this thread for a while. I say why can't we address the 800 pound gorilla in the room? I work my tail off to get new mythic set and my stats droped including armor. Since I'm a tank it hurts to see that.
I know this is a thread on jug, but armor keeps getting talked about so thought it fitting to add...

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Warriors get the best deal on mythic set and unlike the other classes mythic set of warrior is OP in PvP.

[geeman75]

Warriors get the best deal on mythic set and unlike the other classes mythic set of warrior is OP in PvP.
I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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[Oezheasate]

Warriors get the best deal on mythic set and unlike the other classes mythic set of warrior is OP in PvP.

The drop in stats is still quite annoying tho, ofc the axe pull is op but the stats should at least stay on a similar level.

[Ardbeg]

the drop in stats for the new axe throw is intentional, as it is for all classes. it s a trade-off: you want the op skill, say bye bye to op stats. nothing is wrong with that, as long as the new skill works like advertised.

[Oezheasate]

the drop in stats for the new axe throw is intentional, as it is for all classes. it s a trade-off: you want the op skill, say bye bye to op stats. nothing is wrong with that, as long as the new skill works like advertised.

I dont think its ok seeing as how we are much weaker alrdy than the other classes.

[mesalin]

Mages r weak too :3
Yes yes!
So squishy without shield :(


<Forgiveness>

[rustygun]

All the proposed changes by carapace should be made except the change to second wind.

Second wind looks like it would make fixing jug pointless

[rustygun]

I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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All the proposed changes by carapace should be made except the change to second wind.

Agree second wind will defeat the purpose of this fix our heal is more beneficial to rogue and mages I die 4 seconds after healing when HP low also I die blowing horn many times..

[rustygun]

I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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So, after all this is all about pvp....

Suggestion for pve give tanks a pop up rage skill can add a very thin (colour up to STG) meter bar under mana bar that full gradually when tanks hit or take hits.. When pressed to activate mobs get waves of damage on initial activation, tank dmg raised to pure distructive power and buff last more or less 10 sec.. Pve only

[rustygun]

I don't disagree as gear is a better deal for wars, I'm just saying that an upgrade shouldn't include a downgrade with it. That goes for all the classes... especially a armor nerf for wars.

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2.5% hp regain seems quite low. For a warrior with 9500hp for example, that would only be 237hp. But with the other extras it may be decent. Rotating Nekro with juggernaut seems more logical now. Everyone is probably going to spec DOT off once again.

In pvp when I tested long ago, I think charged jugg only granted 450 hp due to the global pvp nerf rather than the 500 hp. Would the nerf be applied to this as well?

Yes you right rav..

[Oezheasate]

Mages r weak too :3

mages are actually catching up to rogues in terms of opness, they are actually starting to act somewhat as tanks in clashes.

[Froxanthar]

Mages weak? I have really hard time to break Mages double shield ( Arcane Shield and Nekro Shield ).

[Skvll]

Focus on warriors in this thread please. Not mages and rogues.

[geeman75]

I dont think its ok seeing as how we are much weaker alrdy than the other classes.
Agreed.... [emoji106]

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[Dex Scene]

Hey everyone,

I was busy toiling away on some other things but I'm digging through the input here and have some additional thoughts based on feedback I've read thus far.

The weakness of the skill was not as apparent as it was once the points were being made, as well as shortcomings in some of the upgrades for the skill. So with that in mind here is a new range of implementation changes to the skill for further discussion:

First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.
143804

This has a notable improvement compared to the previous iteration, but not too much. The reason why is because of the potential modifications to these upgrades.

Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

Great discussion here, thanks all.

This seems perfect. So many buffs in this skill. Armor buff health buff self heal buffs. All in all it would make warriors a great class. However it doesn't help them much in pve.
A pve buff without effecting the pvp would be needed.
Like some suggested before Class bonus for the pt will help warriors to get invited in pve alot.
At the moment only the best of warriors are somewhat desirable in a pve party.
If there is a class bonus when a party consists a rogue, a mage and a warrior, I think warriors will not have to spend their game life in towns.

Also you guys can introduce some 'pve-only' abilities like mage's freezing, pet's banishing. Give the warriors some cool Pve-only abilities so a warrior in pt don't slow downs the team anymore.

[Dex Scene]

And jugg giving lesser hp in low levels is fine. If warriors are weak at endgame and op at low level, class balance would be buffing them in endgame and the opposite in lower levels.
A level 10 warrior can hold 4 equal geared rogues alone and still type "HAHA KILL ME".
So good job Stg.

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[soon]

what will be changed? The Skill or upgrades? If you change the upgrades could return the skill points that skill?

[MidasMint]

wow theyre going to nerf jugg for twinks

[Oezheasate]

wow theyre going to nerf jugg for twinks

It was kinda needed dont you think?

[Niixed]

Thoughts on the cooldown... Juggernaut's cooldown is the longest of any skill (45 sec), but its duration is also longer than any skill (15 sec). If devs lowered the cooldown they would likely also lower the skill duration. For example a 30 sec cooldown may necessitate a 10 sec duration. This situation may be more desirable unless Jugg proves to be too op with a shorter cooldown.

Please don't forget that sorcerers are not rogues. In PvP (and PvE), sorcerers cannot deal nearly as much damage to a single target as rogues, so they may end up paying the price of an overly-improved Jugg because sorcerers would be totally unable to take down a warrior.

Lightning is NOT Aimed Shot, not by a long shot! Sorcerers get no crit bonus, no armor reduction, and the cooldown is 3 seconds instead of 2. Rogue is the true DPS class because the damage output ceiling is sky-high compared to sorcerers and warriors. A legendary-geared rogue can take out any given boss much faster than a top-geared sorcerer/warrior. Aimed shot plus other rogue mechanics are the primary reasons Jugg needs improvement in PvP.

I'm not attempting to create a tangent, I'm just concerned that we are focusing too much on whether Jugg is able to handle Aimed Shot/Shadow Piercer - aka rogues. The adjustments necessary to properly handle Aimed Shot, etc. could create an unbeatable Warrior in PvP, both for Sorcerers and other Warriors.



First, a higher scale rate for the armor. 17.5% for uncharged, and 25% for charged. This is for legendary level gear, the final entry at the bottom being Arcane/Mythics. This is again without pets and without gems.

This scale seems more sensible than the previous iteration. If you ultimately decide to tie Jugg to armor, please also include the multipliers in the skill description so players are able to discern the personal benefit of an upgrade.



Ignore Pain
Currently this provides 20% Damage Reduction as a tap, and 30% as a charged. This would be changed to 40% Damage Reduction on a tap, and 65% Damage Reduction on a charge. This would last the entire duration.

- Combining this with the health boost from scaling armor above results in substantially more effective health for the duration of the effect

I agree the damage reduction of this upgrade should be improved, but 40%/65% seems like too much. That drastic of an improvement may lead to a severe imbalance. Maybe 30%/50% would be better?



Second Wind
Currently this has a 50% chance when below 25% health to heal for an amount based on damage and strength coefficients. The proposed change here is to remove the minimum health requirement so that it has a chance to proc regardless of current health value. The amount healed would also become a fixed percentage. Likely in the 2.5% max health range and at a reduced 33% chance to proc.

- We acknowledge that in its current form 25% minimum health is too low given the power of DPS classes. This upgrade, combined with the revised 'Ignore Pain' and changed scaling for health benefit could prove to make the Warrior a formidable foe during the up time for this ability against skills like Aimed Shot and Lightning, as well as dangerous Elite bosses and content.

I like the direction, but I'd want to see this tested in real-game combat. Many are saying that 2.5% of health is too low, but they probably aren't considering the fact that the 33% chance to proc would occur with *every* hit, including DoT. Used with other skills and upgrades, overall it looks like a very positive improvement - maybe too positive.



Unstoppable
In addition to removing rooting and snaring effects, Unstoppable would also increase your armor by 20% of your STR. This would apply before the Health bonus is calculated to increase your health bonus.

- By utilizing another primary stat of the Warrior, it should provide additional discussions related to things like Jewels and gear combinations to best benefit a warrior utilizing this skill in PvP and PvE circumstances.

On it's own this would be a great improvement, but combined with the others it may make Jugg too overpowered.

Warriors need improvement, but, as Safiras pointed out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?275645-Juggernaut-Change-Discussion&p=2332491&viewfull=1#post2332491), it should be an ongoing process with the Devs continuing to work with the community even after changes are made. I believe the Devs do this already for the most part, but when the Juggernaut changes are first implemented, it would help keep things calmer if everyone understood they are subject (and likely) to change before they are final. Simply calling it Jugg 2.0 beta on the forums and in the client update notes may help put everyone in beta testing mode.

[geeman75]

I have another thought on this issue.
With having to give up Planar Pendant and arcane ring my mana is quite frankly is crap. What good is upgrading jug if we have no mana to use it?
Yes I know some will say use VB. The problem is I will already be using jug and horn.
I ask what give up the only good thing about new set (axe) for ss, or use just mana guzzling axe throw.
Warriors will be the only class forced to use 3 healing skills just to do a vs... I ask is this fair? Rogue gets pierce and asorb in one skill which does decent damage. Mage heals and gets mana back in one heal.
A warrior will need 3 healing skills just to make it past 1st combo from a rogue...


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[Carapace]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

[Skvll]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.
Everyone is still wondering if the dev team is keeping the duration of jugg the same.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.
This seems better from previous suggestion :)
When can we expect these changes in game? And did you guys had a thought on extra long Cooldown period?

[Froxanthar]

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

Increase the threshold from 25% to 50% and the chance from 50% to 65% if charged.

Decrease the cooldown to 30 seconds please.

[Rockingtigertiger Tiger]

I'm a tank and I'm saying leave aim shot alone.. I hate nerfing and to be honest we don't want to to make any toon weaker but match them in strength and skills.. "One time use skill!!!!" Aim shot and NOX bolt CD 3sec jug last about 4-5 if no break taking heavy damage for the duration of 40 sec aim shot and NOx rain on you...
I agree with rust gun 45 sec cool down down is Way too much long cool down period ; Sts plss adjust the cool down of jugger !! and rest jugger is still good 😟

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[Jazzi]

This thread and people keeping on asking for more and more reminds me of the nekro buff thread ;)

[xsilentninjax]

Doesn't mean if this pet IRONBITE(gives 600 armor) would be OP for twinks?

[Dex Scene]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.
This is fine but also keep the jugg's health buff scaled with level. Warriors are very strong in low levels' pvp already. And the jugg's changes you are planning has the most effects on pvp. I thought it was going to be a pve buffs.

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[soon]

Playing with PvE warrior, I'm missing the increased damage that vengeful blood gives me. I think the PvP players use Horn, Juggernaut and two attack skills. In this case, it would be better to increase strength, instead of increasing health? It does not help the increased resistance for a few seconds, if I can not damage.


Again. If you change the upgrades could return the skill points that skill?

[Dex Scene]

Playing with PvE warrior, I'm missing the increased damage that vengeful blood gives me. I think the PvP players use Horn, Juggernaut and two attack skills. In this case, it would be better to increase strength, instead of increasing health? It does not help the increased resistance for a few seconds, if I can not damage.


Again. If you change the upgrades could return the skill points that skill?
^ this is So true.

@Cara, People hardly use Jugg in pve now. They recently have the Rally cry in their skill specs. people even use 4 attacks in non elite pve maps. Iam not here to start jugg/vb which is better or 'No healing warriors' don't know the class mechanisms arguments but JUGG is rather a pvp oriented skill.

I know Jugg needs to be fixed but don't just think about JUGG when you are trying to buff the warriors. If all the warrior buff planning goes only around Jugg, warriors will be imposible to kill in pvp.
Rather just fix the jug's self heal from 40% hp (which is 25% atm) and scale the hp buffs from JUGG and VB according to the levels and think about giving warriors some PVE-Only abilities.
Give a class bonus when a party has all the 3 classes.

[Oezheasate]

^ this is So true.

@Cara, People hardly use Jugg in pve now. They recently have the Rally cry in their skill specs. people even use 4 attacks in non elite pve maps. Iam not here to start jugg/vb which is better or 'No healing warriors' don't know the class mechanisms arguments but JUGG is rather a pvp oriented skill.

I know Jugg needs to be fixed but don't just think about JUGG when you are trying to buff the warriors. If all the warrior buff planning goes only around Jugg, warriors will be imposible to kill in pvp.
Rather just fix the jug's self heal from 40% hp (which is 25% atm) and scale the hp buffs from JUGG and VB according to the levels and think about giving warriors some PVE-Only abilities.
Give a class bonus when a party has all the 3 classes.

Those upgrades wont make warriors unkillable, far from it, at the moment warriors get eaten in pvp, this buff would actually ensure that they would be a little more competitive, id suggest you try out PvP with warrior before you go around making assumptions as to if this upgrade would make warriors unkillable or not.

[Dex Scene]

Those upgrades wont make warriors unkillable, far from it, at the moment warriors get eaten in pvp, this buff would actually ensure that they would be a little more competitive, id suggest you try out PvP with warrior before you go around making assumptions as to if this upgrade would make warriors unkillable or not.
I have all endgame classes so Iam not saying out of an imagination.
I didn't say warriors are unkillable atm. But if jugg gets all the buffs and then self heal at 50% below hp they just wont get below 50% hp and imagine what will happen in twink levels.
I suggest go make a twink warriors and come reply me here.

[Kakashis]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

As long as warriors don't get killed from the a charged Aimed shot when under jug would help that class tremendously. Even at 50% chance to heal, I think they would still die if it doesn't proc fast enough which is often the case now. I also think that the cool down of this skill is ridiculously long and by the next time it's actually usable, I'm already struggling to survive on a defensive build too!

At twink, the issue was that 500hp was too op, but at levels 30+ 500hp initial boost isn't the issue and it's the speed of the self healing + 25% being too low. Should the new 40% be more effective, this skills cool down time needs to decrease by a few factors. When I actually survive some barrage of combos, I'm often finding that I have no more healing options and die as well. Heck, Nekro AA is a shorter CD than this basic skill. HOR or VB cool down times would be much more appropriate to at least give this skill a proper comeback.

[Killian229]

Non charge health boost from juggernaut needs to scale per level. switch charged jugg bonus from health to damage(not dps) boost(not damage%).or deflect damage!nn for warriors to stick around for so long if we CANNOT DO NEARLY ENOUGH DAMAGE.look at end game character stats.The differance in health between characters and damage done by alot of mobs,does not justify adding health to warriors.do some math people...warrior screwed hard and the Rouge (strongest single target damage character by far)gets a debuff to use every few seconds(which will always win,oh yeah,highest crit/dodge too). How can you think adding some more health or armor is going to fix a warrior.give us dodge,try DR,Thorns,weapon damage,something to work with!got to remember in a pvp situation you will only use this skill once with current CD.Warriors are light years away from op in PvE.A warrior is the heart of war,every army needs Warriors.Warriors can do DAMAGE,promise.

Immune to debuff would be OK,maybe..you guys need a test server(donate or veterans status to test for you).Don't let my anger fool you,I was obsessed with pl!

Fyi I always liked mage best Warriors second(majority of games) :)

[Pedgon]

Some good thoughts here. In general I'm happy with the core change to the ability, as well as the unstoppable change. Second Wind has some interesting counter points to the currently proposed implementation.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is what we're looking for. The only real issue outlined here is that players feel it gets "cancelled". It's not really cancelled, it's just that the way we calculate a perk like healing is post damage. If it killed you, there's no chance it will go off.

How about a change to Second Wind that changes the threshold from < 25% health to < 40% health, and the chance from 50% remains 50%.

YES! That is exactly what I said about Second Wind, thank you carapace! :)

With the other suggestions you propose, it seems that we will finally have juggernaut like it was supposed to be!

[Pedgon]

Increase the threshold from 25% to 50% and the chance from 50% to 65% if charged.

Decrease the cooldown to 30 seconds please.

Let's not exaggerate, please! With the other changes to juggernaut, I don't think we need such an OP "Second Wind" upgrade like you propose. The threshold from 25% to 40% with a 50% chance to proc is enough.

About cooldown, I totally agree..the 45 sec cd is ridiculous..30-35 would be fair/necessary, and like I said before, we will still have the longest cooldown in game. The duration of juggernaut should NOT be changed.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

About cooldown, I totally agree..the 45 sec cd is ridiculous..30-35 would be fair/necessary, and like I said before, we will still have the longest cooldown in game. The duration of juggernaut should NOT be changed.

Agreed cd should be reduced but Duration shout NOT be changed!

[Pedgon]

Thoughts on the cooldown... Juggernaut's cooldown is the longest of any skill (45 sec), but its duration is also longer than any skill (15 sec). If devs lowered the cooldown they would likely also lower the skill duration. For example a 30 sec cooldown may necessitate a 10 sec duration. This situation may be more desirable unless Jugg proves to be too op with a shorter cooldown.

Please don't forget that sorcerers are not rogues. In PvP (and PvE), sorcerers cannot deal nearly as much damage to a single target as rogues, so they may end up paying the price of an overly-improved Jugg because sorcerers would be totally unable to take down a warrior.

Lightning is NOT Aimed Shot, not by a long shot! Sorcerers get no crit bonus, no armor reduction, and the cooldown is 3 seconds instead of 2. Rogue is the true DPS class because the damage output ceiling is sky-high compared to sorcerers and warriors. A legendary-geared rogue can take out any given boss much faster than a top-geared sorcerer/warrior. Aimed shot plus other rogue mechanics are the primary reasons Jugg needs improvement in PvP.

I'm not attempting to create a tangent, I'm just concerned that we are focusing too much on whether Jugg is able to handle Aimed Shot/Shadow Piercer - aka rogues. The adjustments necessary to properly handle Aimed Shot, etc. could create an unbeatable Warrior in PvP, both for Sorcerers and other Warriors.


This scale seems more sensible than the previous iteration. If you ultimately decide to tie Jugg to armor, please also include the multipliers in the skill description so players are able to discern the personal benefit of an upgrade.


I agree the damage reduction of this upgrade should be improved, but 40%/65% seems like too much. That drastic of an improvement may lead to a severe imbalance. Maybe 30%/50% would be better?


I like the direction, but I'd want to see this tested in real-game combat. Many are saying that 2.5% of health is too low, but they probably aren't considering the fact that the 33% chance to proc would occur with *every* hit, including DoT. Used with other skills and upgrades, overall it looks like a very positive improvement - maybe too positive.


On it's own this would be a great improvement, but combined with the others it may make Jugg too overpowered.

Warriors need improvement, but, as Safiras pointed out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?275645-Juggernaut-Change-Discussion&p=2332491&viewfull=1#post2332491), it should be an ongoing process with the Devs continuing to work with the community even after changes are made. I believe the Devs do this already for the most part, but when the Juggernaut changes are first implemented, it would help keep things calmer if everyone understood they are subject (and likely) to change before they are final. Simply calling it Jugg 2.0 beta on the forums and in the client update notes may help put everyone in beta testing mode.

Humm..I believe you just want to keep juggernaut as it is honestly! lol no comments..

[Tatman]

This thread and people keeping on asking for more and more reminds me of the nekro buff thread ;)
Yes, expect "nerf jugg" thread soon.

[Skvll]

@carapace if you was in a clash what skills would you use as a warrior? Considering the fact that all these armor debuffs constantly being reapplied. Making us warriors similar to a rog in terms of how much armor we have due to armor debuffs consistently due to pets and skills. Why are we (warriors) still getting crit like if we are a rog. Why don't you name change our class to a priest or healer class since the Devs gave us so many heals but we still die like paper. And we can't deal dmg like a rog but have armor like a rog? If we warrior choose to deal dmg we can't cause we worry about staying alive with jugg using our one attack skill and using veng to deal a little bit of dmg when in reality we all want to deal dmg with two attack skills and if we try to use 2 then we risk running dry on mana. So just name change our class to priest cause that's all we really are. We are not warriors cause it sure doesn't feel like it. Especially if we having a discussion on it....still. I want to feel like a warrior when I play the...power and survivability. I call for a name change of the warrior class to be called the Priest. I'm not bashing or thrashing this class that I play I want the Devs to open their eyes a little more and see our class.

[Dex Scene]

Yes, expect "nerf jugg" thread soon.
There will be lol.
Some are not understanding how op the jug will be. Lets stg implement this and see.
Also warriors needs to get pve buffs. i don't know if stg can keep the pve buffs solely for pve. If not add that with buffed jugg.
No worries warriors deserves a season too. Time to bring out my war :)

[iiy]

Its already impossible to a tank kill a good rogue, so you try to debuff tanks but keep rogues at top?

[Killian229]

MY FAVORITE CLASS IS NOT WARRIOR.Warriors will get abused like this as long as Debuffs over ride buffs,and I'll say it till I'm blue in the face.this make the pecking order Rouge>Mage>Warrior.with the warrior not going to be able to kill squat(let's see some legit 100% end game geared characters duel,so theres video footage to prove).Over the years I have had some of the most comprehensive builds for massively popular games with at times unbelievable amounts of luxury loot and not on one single game do tanks suck at damage like here(end game).So you wanna nerf the only thing tanks on here can do(I agree tho).OK so maybe kill 2birds with one stone?GIVE US DAMAGE OMG!!!IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.People start crying here about "now tanks will be op" blab blah blah...sounds like they like the 5second fights against Warriors because of the ease?now a challenge could arise and cry cry.Hypothesis: Rouges are #1plat buyers.PLEASE anyone here,I implore you,find a RPG where the "tank" class is the weakest...it's just ridiculous to watch sts brainstorm with people who probably don't play Warriors(hmm...wonder why...).then people who are RPG masters at times tell sts whats gunna happen,how people will veiw this "change" and it seems to get brushed off the shoulder .this game truely is boardering on a masterpiece,I sure hope to one day see sts cross that boarder. i wont ever pay a dime for al untill warriors are fixed .fix them or you will forever be called out,lose money,lose fans, and lose time.

[Skvll]

@killian229 your post is the most accurate. I agree 100%

[Carapace]

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace

[Edward Coug]

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

- Carapace

No need to sugarcoat it. This really isn't a PvE fix. It does nothing to speed up runs. Rogues and mages don't need wars for survivability.

Great for PvP, though.

It's a start. Nice work.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace
Thank you so much Carapace for your hard work and an attempt to correct things. Hope these changes can bring some life back to warriors. When can we expect to see these changes ingame?

[Killian229]

So from what I understand about the dev team is that they want to keep Juggernaut a defensive skill.do this then,scale per level/health or armor and also add for a charged bonus:Any damage over X% amount of health loss is reduced to X.basically if you want to keep Juggernaut the way it is(or slight variations of such) you must stop Warriors from losing that 8-9k health in just a few shots.if Warriors are tanks...then rouges are artillery.I do apologize for my misguided passion sts team,I do believe you can/will fix this,just don't take too long!I want to see this game succeed, truly!

[soon]

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace

There is no way to eliminate many mobs in 15 seconds. All because the healer. It cures most of the damage we caused.

144085


Watch the video. There are 2 warriors, 1 Rogue and 1 mage. It takes more than 15 seconds to just kill the healer. In this case you have only 5 enemies. It would be much worse if they had only warriors in the party. While the healer is alive, it has no way to kill the others.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtziKM_WjCk&feature=youtu.be

[Oezheasate]

I have all endgame classes so Iam not saying out of an imagination.
I didn't say warriors are unkillable atm. But if jugg gets all the buffs and then self heal at 50% below hp they just wont get below 50% hp and imagine what will happen in twink levels.
I suggest go make a twink warriors and come reply me here.

You dont listen and you dont have much of an idea, warriors atm arent unkillable? Correct they are paper, yesterday a rogue broke my jugg in 2 seconds, she was skilled but 2 seconds?? (Plus i had her outgeared)
Not just once, i tested it, after the third time i gave up trying to kill her in vs.
Again play the class intesively in pvp, vs rogues, mages do clashes with 3-4 dps on opp side and see how your jugg lasts.
This jugg fix wont make warriors unkillable, far from it gosh, this fix will give them a shot at surviving and actually working as they are supposed to be!!
Its infuriating seeing you utter unthought phrases about a class you very clearly do not know much about at all, twinking is one thing, we are talking about jugg at endgame.
I do kindly ask you, pvp with the class at endgame, see how your jugg lasts against skilled players, test it out in all kinds of situations, then come back and give some input.
Btw i thought you might have noticed that this is a nerff for twinks? Basing the jugg buff on armor will actually help twink levels.

[Dex Scene]

You dont listen and you dont have much of an idea, warriors atm arent unkillable? Correct they are paper, yesterday a rogue broke my jugg in 2 seconds, she was skilled but 2 seconds??
Not just once, i tested it, after the third time i gave up trying to kill her in vs.
Again play the class intesively in pvp, vs rogues, mages do clashes with 3-4 dps on opp side and see how your jugg lasts.
This jugg fix wont make warriors unkillable, far from it gosh, this fix will give them a shot at surviving and actually working as they are supposed to be!!
Its infuriating seeing you utter unthought phrases about a class you very clearly do not know much about at all, twinking is one thing, we are talking about jugg at endgame.
I do kindly ask you, pvp with the class at endgame, see how your jugg lasts against skilled players, test it out in all kinds of situations, then come back and give some input.
Lemme remind you the jugg buff will be coming for not just endgame but whole warriors at any levels.
Also lemme remind you I didn't say to not buff jugg anywhere.
I said the buff cara proposed is fine and don't need any more added to it if they want class balance. Also not to forget warriors won't just get Jugg buff. I am asking stg to buff warriors in more way so they get usefull in pve

Edit:
Added- and oh warrior is not a vs class.

[Jazzi]

There is no way to eliminate many mobs in 15 seconds. All because the healer. It cures most of the damage we caused.

144085


Watch the video. There are 2 warriors, 1 Rogue and 1 mage. It takes more than 15 seconds to just kill the healer. In this case you have only 5 enemies. It would be much worse if they had only warriors in the party. While the healer is alive, it has no way to kill the others.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtziKM_WjCk&feature=youtu.be

I see many mistakes in the playstyle of the 2 dps. If u wanna know more send me a pm.

[Pedgon]

There's a lot of good points in here, and while some have merit we are focusing on Juggernaut right now. Other concerns regarding damage output, skill selections, and things of that nature are not unheard. They are however, outside of the scope of this change. There are many things to consider, and while the expectation is that this change will help warriors in multiple scenarios both in PvE and PvP it is not a "fix" by any means to the many class imbalances being pointed out in this thread and others.

In regards to the Cool down currently it is not on the table as a part of these changes. We want to see how changes like these impact the game before making it more readily available. Collectively we believe these changes are fairly powerful, and can be stacked or daisy chained with Nekro's Buff, Horn of Renew Immunity, and other skills and we are being cautious.

In regards to PvE specifically, popping Juggernaut as you pull a large group in Elite content with all of the upgrades would result in increased health, a substantial damage reduction that stacks with the elixir, and a powerful second win heal that will likely proc frequently under a barrage of attacks. Fifteen seconds should be enough time to reduce the number of attackers to a more manageable size before the effects wear off.

Thanks for all of your input on this, it's been very informative and helpful.
- Carapace

Humm..the 45 sec cooldown was always a problem, I believe no one understands why it is that long, almost double cd from the 2nd longest skill cd in game (shield from mages). You need to understand that we are fighting 30 SEC with 3 skills (this is more noticeable when doing 1x1 vs mage or rogue), and, like I said before, our attack skills have already long cooldowns comparing with mage or rogue.

I know this is more from a PvP perspective, but tanks do not really need jugger in PvE, MAINLY, because of its very long cooldown; Vengeful Blood is way better and makes runs faster (almost half of jugger's cooldown and also gives attack buffs).

[Kakashis]

Humm..the 45 sec cooldown was always a problem, I believe no one understands why it is that long, almost double cd from the 2nd longest skill cd in game (shield from mages). You need to understand that we are fighting 30 SEC with 3 skills (this is more noticeable when doing 1x1 vs mage or rogue), and, like I said before, our attack skills have already long cooldowns comparing with mage or rogue.

I know this is more from a PvP perspective, but tanks do not really need jugger in PvE, MAINLY, because of its very long cooldown; Vengeful Blood is way better and makes runs faster (almost half of jugger's cooldown and also gives attack buffs).

Yeah, I have to agree. But thank you Carapace for even taking the time looking at juggernaut! I hope my warrior at its peak season cap will be a little more competitive with the adjustments, but with the high cool down and low damage, I might still succumb to rogues 1v1.

It's usually a stalemate battle if the fight is even close. Rogues out heal my damage when if I spec in jug.

[hioo]

Looks like elondrian bulwark 2.0
We get a buff and within a week is nerfed.
Yet rogue can kill a 9k hp warrior in the space of 4 seconds and this has been going for how long? I like the thinking, but I still fail to see how rogues and even some mages will munch on our limbs like chicken.

[Skvll]

@carapace with the new design update you have planned so far for jugg increasing our armor for 15 seconds...are we pretty much receiving our original armor stats back after we was armor debuffed by all these pets and Rogs? Are all these debuffes really needed in arcane legends? What exactly is sts trying to achieve? Quicker pve runs and faster gameplay in pvp? Clashes only last seconds the higher up in lvl we go obliviously. I don't get why we gotta be debuffed constantly...like 100% of time during clashes.i think all classes need an hp increase some more than others like us tanks. This is a little off topic but I want my first question answered.

[johnadamole]

I read this hoping find something good idea, but this really not good. 1- this is completly for twinks low lv. What means u alredy have best gears, pets and im sure paras gems and eyes. So its irrelevant for a lot of ppl who only have good stuff.
2- sts gives to mages and rouges a pet like nekro to balance this kind of "problem"
3- jugg have worst cooldown ability. So protect for 10-15 sec and u need wait 30 sec more for land other jugg, when all know if u do head to head battle can dure like 15-30 sec. If both have equal gears maybe 60-90 sec
4- if nerf jugg sts must increase chance to stun to 50% for axe trow and skyr abilities for fair battle.
My conclution:
Better of nerf jugg will be
- for mage upgrade gale force for real defense up and real stun always.
-for rouges less mana cost from all abilities in low levels. so u can fight for more time.

We need fair play for all not just for some classes and more important not just for TWINK PLAYERS
Thank you!!

[geromearchie]

Ok remove jugg then make a skill for war that can kill rogues in 1 hit there problem solved -_-

[rustygun]

Thoughts on the cooldown... Juggernaut's cooldown is the longest of any skill (45 sec), but its duration is also longer than any skill (15 sec). If devs lowered the cooldown they would likely also lower the skill duration. For example a 30 sec cooldown may necessitate a 10 sec duration. This situation may be more desirable unless Jugg proves to be too op with a shorter cooldown.

Please don't forget that sorcerers are not rogues. In PvP (and PvE), sorcerers cannot deal nearly as much damage to a single target as rogues, so they may end up paying the price of an overly-improved Jugg because sorcerers would be totally unable to take down a warrior.

Lightning is NOT Aimed Shot, not by a long shot! Sorcerers get no crit bonus, no armor reduction, and the cooldown is 3 seconds instead of 2. Rogue is the true DPS class because the damage output ceiling is sky-high compared to sorcerers and warriors. A legendary-geared rogue can take out any given boss much faster than a top-geared sorcerer/warrior. Aimed shot plus other rogue mechanics are the primary reasons Jugg needs improvement in PvP.

I'm not attempting to create a tangent, I'm just concerned that we are focusing too much on whether Jugg is able to handle Aimed Shot/Shadow Piercer - aka rogues. The adjustments necessary to properly handle Aimed Shot, etc. could create an unbeatable Warrior in PvP, both for Sorcerers and other Warriors.


This scale seems more sensible than the previous iteration. If you ultimately decide to tie Jugg to armor, please also include the multipliers in the skill description so players are able to discern the personal benefit of an upgrade.


I agree the damage reduction of this upgrade should be improved, but 40%/65% seems like too much. That drastic of an improvement may lead to a severe imbalance. Maybe 30%/50% would be better?


I like the direction, but I'd want to see this tested in real-game combat. Many are saying that 2.5% of health is too low, but they probably aren't considering the fact that the 33% chance to proc would occur with *every* hit, including DoT. Used with other skills and upgrades, overall it looks like a very positive improvement - maybe too positive.


On it's own this would be a great improvement, but combined with the others it may make Jugg too overpowered.

Warriors need improvement, but, as Safiras pointed out (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?275645-Juggernaut-Change-Discussion&p=2332491&viewfull=1#post2332491), it should be an ongoing process with the Devs continuing to work with the community even after changes are made. I believe the Devs do this already for the most part, but when the Juggernaut changes are first implemented, it would help keep things calmer if everyone understood they are subject (and likely) to change before they are final. Simply calling it Jugg 2.0 beta on the forums and in the client update notes may help put everyone in beta testing mode.

If your jug last 17sec mine dont omg can I get some of yours plz?

[rustygun]

Those upgrades wont make warriors unkillable, far from it, at the moment warriors get eaten in pvp, this buff would actually ensure that they would be a little more competitive, id suggest you try out PvP with warrior before you go around making assumptions as to if this upgrade would make warriors unkillable or not.

Tanks die first and fast in clash now a days

[rustygun]

Those upgrades wont make warriors unkillable, far from it, at the moment warriors get eaten in pvp, this buff would actually ensure that they would be a little more competitive, id suggest you try out PvP with warrior before you go around making assumptions as to if this upgrade would make warriors unkillable or not.


Let's not exaggerate, please! With the other changes to juggernaut, I don't think we need such an OP "Second Wind" upgrade like you propose. The threshold from 25% to 40% with a 50% chance to proc is enough.

About cooldown, I totally agree..the 45 sec cd is ridiculous..30-35 would be fair/necessary, and like I said before, we will still have the longest cooldown in game. The duration of juggernaut should NOT be changed.

Yes CD time too long

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

When are we going to see any change about this in game? It has been long now.

[soon]

Since no one talked about. You could make warriors resistant to knock when they use this skill. Boss who do this are very irritating to be killed by warriors. We fight melee.

[PoorLand]

nice now lvl 6- tanks not imortals now

[PoorLand]

kkkkkkkkkkkkkk same stats

[PoorLand]

kkkkkkkkkkkkkk same stats

[xxSkyxx]

I hope these changes only apply to endgame warriors cause warriors at lower levels are OP.

[Isniperz]

Now Lvl 6 warriors not imortals :)

[rustygun]

I read this hoping find something good idea, but this really not good. 1- this is completly for twinks low lv. What means u alredy have best gears, pets and im sure paras gems and eyes. So its irrelevant for a lot of ppl who only have good stuff.
2- sts gives to mages and rouges a pet like nekro to balance this kind of "problem"
3- jugg have worst cooldown ability. So protect for 10-15 sec and u need wait 30 sec more for land other jugg, when all know if u do head to head battle can dure like 15-30 sec. If both have equal gears maybe 60-90 sec
4- if nerf jugg sts must increase chance to stun to 50% for axe trow and skyr abilities for fair battle.
My conclution:
Better of nerf jugg will be
- for mage upgrade gale force for real defense up and real stun always.
-for rouges less mana cost from all abilities in low levels. so u can fight for more time.

We need fair play for all not just for some classes and more important not just for TWINK PLAYERS
Thank you!!

Juggernaut don't last that long endgame in clash you even get stun and die and if u can protect your jug it last about 6 sec.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

Has changes been finalised? Any updates?

It seems like thread has lost its momentum.

[geeman75]

When will we know what has been decided?

Sent from my SM-S975L using Tapatalk

[Redjellydonut]

@carapace if you was in a clash what skills would you use as a warrior? Considering the fact that all these armor debuffs constantly being reapplied. Making us warriors similar to a rog in terms of how much armor we have due to armor debuffs consistently due to pets and skills. Why are we (warriors) still getting crit like if we are a rog. Why don't you name change our class to a priest or healer class since the Devs gave us so many heals but we still die like paper. And we can't deal dmg like a rog but have armor like a rog? If we warrior choose to deal dmg we can't cause we worry about staying alive with jugg using our one attack skill and using veng to deal a little bit of dmg when in reality we all want to deal dmg with two attack skills and if we try to use 2 then we risk running dry on mana. So just name change our class to priest cause that's all we really are. We are not warriors cause it sure doesn't feel like it. Especially if we having a discussion on it....still. I want to feel like a warrior when I play the...power and survivability. I call for a name change of the warrior class to be called the Priest. I'm not bashing or thrashing this class that I play I want the Devs to open their eyes a little more and see our class.

😂😂😂😂 Priests lol more like butterflies. Whenever i go on my warrior lvl46 i feel like all im worried about is being able to reduce the health bar on the mobs. Then a rogue or mage comes and kills 10 of them with 1 or 2 hits! Trust me i have good gear and pets but it seems like thats not enough... Even though endgame warriors spend millions and millions of gold to TRY to be a strong as rogues or mages.

[Skvll]

Has changes been finalised? Any updates?

It seems like thread has lost its momentum. I was thinking the same thing. Since Carapace is slacking in replying
So it's makes it harder to give better ideas with his lack of communication to this thread. Just calling it how I see it. And @carapace tell us the days you work...so we can hopefully get a reply to this thread. I understand you're observing but atleast let us know you're alive?

[ketoh]

Make the update this week and we'll try it, we will send your feedback to devs after his attempted Thanks

[Oezheasate]

The cooldown of the skill really needs a revision, ineffective in pve and also gives warriors a disavatange in pvp

[Skvll]

Honestly I don't mind the cool down being like that. Considering the fact that pvp has those guilds that loves to tank stack
Maybe to even the playing field cause tank stackers. Devs should just make a jugg 35% chance of you getting your full hp back within 8 seconds on a 45 second cooldown whenever theirs 4-5 tanks on one team.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

I was thinking the same thing. Since Carapace is slacking in replying
So it's makes it harder to give better ideas with his lack of communication to this thread. Just calling it how I see it. And @carapace tell us the days you work...so we can hopefully get a reply to this thread. I understand you're observing but atleast let us know you're alive?
I visit this thread 3-4 times a day to check if any dev has anything to say but sadly find nothing.
If changing process is on or if changes have been finalised atleast those players who gave so many good suggestions in this thread have the right to know it. It just need a line from dev and it feels like we are actively involved. We wait in eagerness to know where the work has reached?

I sincerely love the way devs try to make transperancy in the game they listen our feedback acts on them (sometimes slow maybe :P). Thank you.

[Pedgon]

Honestly I don't mind the cool down being like that. Considering the fact that pvp has those guilds that loves to tank stack
Maybe to even the playing field cause tank stackers. Devs should just make a jugg 35% chance of you getting your full hp back within 8 seconds on a 45 second cooldown whenever theirs 4-5 tanks on one team.

Huh? I think you don't know what endgame pvp is these days..tank stack? Dude, 4-5 tanks team is very easy, I did it many times with me tanking alone with 4 dps, and, even with max tanks, it's easy food! :)

Juggernaut NEEDS 30-35 sec cooldown, YES! This cd was always absurd, but nowadays it's even more, because of what tank class has became on endgame.

[geeman75]

Huh? I think you don't know what endgame pvp is these days..tank stack? Dude, 4-5 tanks team is very easy, I did it many times with me tanking alone with 4 dps, and, even with max tanks, it's easy food! :)

Juggernaut NEEDS 30-35 sec cooldown, YES! This cd was always absurd, but nowadays it's even more, because of what tank class has became on endgame.
I thonk this whole thread is a joke tbh.
To think fixing jug will stop the imbalances as it has been presented won't do it.
Unless juggernaut is changed to represent it's name it won't make us much of a threat.

When I ask people who don't play this game what they think when I say juggernaut they all respond unstoppable.

We will still be plagued with low dps low damage.
If runs are still faster with out a warrior and even if I'm last man standing in pvp if I can't inact enouhh dps or damage to kill before respawn or cool down what good is it???

I have a better Idea change Arcane Legends to Arcane Rogue and do away with all other classes (sarcasm) this is what most who is not a warrior or mage wants anyhow.

Let's be honest very few want balance including STS from what I can see proof I can't give, but look at armor on a rogue these days.

Be honest the thought of losing to a tank is unthinkable nobody wants to loose.
If tanks are equal how on earth will op classes raise there kdr (more sarcasm)?

The thought of being no more significant in an elite run than a tank is also unthinkable.

Now I know this doesn't apply to all but I venture to say more think this way than do not thats if they would be honest.

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[Hustle]

I thonk this whole thread is a joke tbh.
To think fixing jug will stop the imbalances as it has been presented won't do it.
Unless juggernaut is changed to represent it's name it won't make us much of a threat.

When I ask people who don't play this game what they think when I say juggernaut they all respond unstoppable.

We will still be plagued with low dps low damage.
If runs are still faster with out a warrior and even if I'm last man standing in pvp if I can't inact enouhh dps or damage to kill before respawn or cool down what good is it???

I have a better Idea change Arcane Legends to Arcane Rogue and do away with all other classes (sarcasm) this is what most who is not a warrior or mage wants anyhow.

Let's be honest very few want balance including STS from what I can see proof I can't give, but look at armor on a rogue these days.

Be honest the thought of losing to a tank is unthinkable nobody wants to loose.
If tanks are equal how on earth will op classes raise there kdr (more sarcasm)?

The thought of being no more significant in an elite run than a tank is also unthinkable.

Now I know this doesn't apply to all but I venture to say more think this way than do not thats if they would be honest.

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-Only class with no representation on timed run on any lvl
-Only class never invited to a elite
-Only class tht isn't a 'vs class'
-Only class tht isn't able to solo content
-Only class tht has two different weapons almost every other season making them choose whether to pvp or pve
-Only class whose ctf and tdm lb is almost completly filled with lvl 7 dummy farmer
-Only class whose jugg skill has been faulty at endgame for 2 seasons and only now is there is any mention by devs and considering the interest in this thread from original poster not much of that.

And they thinking juggernaut is the problem..as if fixing jugg solves the tank class issues and as soon as this happens people will start wanting tanks to run elites with them. The whole tank class and the pve system in this game has to be looked at for that to happen and I have very little hope of that happening. I suggest tanks just make rogues and actually enjoy the game. And if you do play warrior refuse to heal ur party and use venge and 3 attack skills..what will they do? Not take us to elite?

[Skvll]

Huh? I think you don't know what endgame pvp is these days..tank stack? Dude, 4-5 tanks team is very easy, I did it many times with me tanking alone with 4 dps, and, even with max tanks, it's easy food! :)

Juggernaut NEEDS 30-35 sec cooldown, YES! This cd was always absurd, but nowadays it's even more, because of what tank class has became on endgame.
I'm talking about low lvl pvp lol tank stackers are easy at my bracket too but I know at lower lvls it's problem if they all use jugg lol

[geeman75]

-Only class with no representation on timed run on any lvl
-Only class never invited to a elite
-Only class tht isn't a 'vs class'
-Only class tht isn't able to solo content
-Only class tht has two different weapons almost every other season making them choose whether to pvp or pve
-Only class whose ctf and tdm lb is almost completly filled with lvl 7 dummy farmer
-Only class whose jugg skill has been faulty at endgame for 2 seasons and only now is there is any mention by devs and considering the interest in this thread from original poster not much of that.

And they thinking juggernaut is the problem..as if fixing jugg solves the tank class issues and as soon as this happens people will start wanting tanks to run elites with them. The whole tank class and the pve system in this game has to be looked at for that to happen and I have very little hope of that happening. I suggest tanks just make rogues and actually enjoy the game. And if you do play warrior refuse to heal ur party and use venge and 3 attack skills..what will they do? Not take us to elite?
Brovo bro... Finally someone else who feels like I do...

We are mad as Hell, and aren't taking it anymore...

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[Skvll]

Another week with carapace afk lmao! Great communication *thumbs up* :)

[kracken]

lol when will sts fix jugg?

[metalfacedoom]

Why are we worried about surviving? Warriors should be damage dealers.

Give us a completely new skill.

[Dex Scene]

Why are we worried about surviving? Warriors should be damage dealers.

Give us a completely new skill.

Mages supposed to tank and rogues supposed to be healer

[Skvll]

Why are we worried about surviving? Warriors should be damage dealers.

Give us a completely new skill.
If carapace was here he'd say we are focusing on the ability of jugg even though these are all great suggestions we are working on balancing out jugg.

Carapace wouldn't come to this thread to say anything else really...* crosses fingers hoping I'm wrong*

[Kakashis]

-Only class with no representation on timed run on any lvl
-Only class never invited to a elite
-Only class tht isn't a 'vs class'
-Only class tht isn't able to solo content
-Only class tht has two different weapons almost every other season making them choose whether to pvp or pve
-Only class whose ctf and tdm lb is almost completly filled with lvl 7 dummy farmer
-Only class whose jugg skill has been faulty at endgame for 2 seasons and only now is there is any mention by devs and considering the interest in this thread from original poster not much of that.

And they thinking juggernaut is the problem..as if fixing jugg solves the tank class issues and as soon as this happens people will start wanting tanks to run elites with them. The whole tank class and the pve system in this game has to be looked at for that to happen and I have very little hope of that happening. I suggest tanks just make rogues and actually enjoy the game. And if you do play warrior refuse to heal ur party and use venge and 3 attack skills..what will they do? Not take us to elite?

Yeah, at this point STS should just let warriors be as viable in elites and do as much damage as the other 2 classes. The game doesn't really need tanks, it needs warriors that deal damage. Cs, windmill, Ax throw and veng should be able to be as competitive as a rogue or a mage. Sadly, right now it's not even close and if anything, it's the HOR that makes the warrior class into tanks. Game doesn't really need anyone to tank or hold aggro anymore, fixing jug is like putting a bandaid on a sinking class.

Warriors can't even take a full one hit crit hit in a red zone. Why should they be tanks? The other two classes both use ranged weapons anyways.

[Hustle]

Yeah, at this point STS should just let warriors be as viable in elites and do as much damage as the other 2 classes. The game doesn't really need tanks, it needs warriors that deal damage. Cs, windmill, Ax throw and veng should be able to be as competitive as a rogue or a mage. Sadly, right now it's not even close and if anything, it's the HOR that makes the warrior class into tanks. Game doesn't really need anyone to tank or hold aggro anymore, fixing jug is like putting a bandaid on a sinking class.

Warriors can't even take a full one hit crit hit in a red zone. Why should they be tanks? The other two classes both use ranged weapons anyways.

Exactly dude! Why do warriors have to be tanks when mages can tank as well if not better? Why do tanks keep blowing this useless Horn and fighting melee and trying to hopelessly maintain aggro if don't have the tools to do so? I suggest STS give us some sort of ranged weapon like a spear and replace jugg with another attack skill. Nerf horn so it only heals the warrior and let's all get back to doing damage which is all this game requires.

[extrapayah]

after looking at the weekly update,

didnt you forget something? stun immunity? warrior also need pull immunity, as the only melee class

[Skvll]

If we can be stunned while jugg is active carapace smh at the sts team for thinking this nerf through all the way.

[Shobhit Chaturvedi]

Also there was no mention of 65% damage reduction for first 6 sec when charged :(

[Bmwmsix]

So much to an ongoing open discussion....transparency at its finest, huh :banana:

[geeman75]

Well we will see...
I guess we have no choice to accept this or quit.
I agree with what one post said why even bother just make us another DPS class since team work and class interaction really isn't necessary to get through any maps.
Give us a range wep new dps skill and be done.
I hate to sound cynical, but it's the truth.
I've been a gamer longer than most playing or programming this game have even been alive.
In all the years of gaming this is the first and only game I've played where the tank is not only meant to hold aggro but heal also.
Usually there is a priest type character to keep tank alive not other way around.
This game goes against the very fabric of fantasy D&D based game novels or thougts.
Warriors are not paladins and tbh tanks in AL are neither we are nurses with weak stats useless armor and quite frankly worthless skills...


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[Hustle]

Well we will see...
I guess we have no choice to accept this or quit.
I agree with what one post said why even bother just make us another DPS class since team work and class interaction really isn't necessary to get through any maps.
Give us a range wep new dps skill and be done.
I hate to sound cynical, but it's the truth.
I've been a gamer longer than most playing or programming this game have even been alive.
In all the years of gaming this is the first and only game I've played where the tank is not only meant to hold aggro but heal also.
Usually there is a priest type character to keep tank alive not other way around.
This game goes against the very fabric of fantasy D&D based game novels or thougts.
Warriors are not paladins and tbh tanks in AL are neither we are nurses with weak stats useless armor and quite frankly worthless skills


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This post has so much truth in it it deserves it own thread and maybe a moderator can make it a sticky on the warrior class discussion so future endgame tanks don't waste their money/time and just pick rogues to spam skills with. I have played tank on tons of MMOs and when I first started playing Warrior on AL I thought it was one of the best tank character I had played..mind you this was 4 seasons ago. Even the added responsibility of being both the healer and the tank didn't faze me cause all tanks love a challenge although as OP said no other game i have played makes the tank the healer too. Over time the need for a tank or a healer or any sort of gameplay other than mashing skills and pots disappeared as the dps just ran through elite maps killing mobs in record time. At this point the warrior being slow and unable to maintain aggro or do any damage became a liability. Can't really blame the rest of AL ditching the warrior on the side of the road cause in the end true gaming is about efficiency. Personally I feel there is no chance of this game reverting to a model where a tank is ever actually required for elite pve runs..at this moment we might as well forget being tanks and just become warriors. Give us a proper ranged dps weapon (spear or throwing axe or something like that cool hammer Thor has) and another attack skill. Take away the AoE horn and jugg and make the warrior class another damage dealing class. This way atleast those people who have spent years and thousands of dollars on endgame warriors can actually enjoy the game get a few times run banners maybe even kill something in pvp (God forbid) like the other two classes do. As far as I can see this jugg nerf/buff whatever will have no effect whatsoever on the problems of the tank class. It maybe even be a step backwards. If all it does is make lvl 7 tanks a little less OP and lets rogues/mages play around with endgame tanks a little longer while waiting for their jugg to run out nothing really changes does it?

[Killian229]

Sts,thank you.I was optimistic of different bonuses for the skills but I see them soon in the future.the warrior needed this.all who complain don't understand how important a tank is.I like it.now add a damage buff that cannot be debuffed=balanced.thinking of getting some plat now I can play my warrior. Woohoo to zero deaths!ty!more pls.. :-)

[Killian229]

LOL@ all who are not pleased. When Warriors can keep threat/tank for you,you will stifle yourself.great sts,please quickly add 1 skill per class/maybe per active skill also with your level cap soon to be coming.That would sell good. I'd buy if we see balance as I like to have end game for all chars+bank.NOTE::ADD ITEMS THAT HAVE DURABILITY, MAKE THEM STRONGER(per damage/lose durability) BUT CANNOT REPAIR,THUS STABILIZING THR ECONOMICS SLIGHTLY(gold input for better stated item/no return value). Ty guys,continue with the balance and you will be great.PL2 charge sticker price.ty.pl+AL=Boss.

[Remiem]

I'm going to close this down so we can keep track of live feedback here: http://www.spacetimestudios.com/showthread.php?282357-Juggernaut-Official-Feedback-Thread

Thanks!