Dexmage versus Intmage / Pure Int - A Factual Guide

[kamikazees]

Two PL mages were arguing one day. The first said, Dexmages are better; they have higher burst damage! The second said, Intmages are better; they have overall damage! They were still arguing when the Bandit Boy Bird came along and Blast Shotted them both.

I have been reading all the Dexmage / Intmage debates recently. I saw that there is not a lot of pure factual information about just what each mage can and cannot do "better" than the other. I decided to try and find out for myself.

First, my IGN is Sollertia. I am a lvl 55 pure Intmage, Enchanted Staff set user, which by my prior thinking was the "most powerful" build a Intmage can achieve. I decided to compare my current build with two of the most common Dexmage builds to see. I purchased a Raid Auto-Bow set for about 700k. I then borrowed a Custom Recurve Bow set (thanks to Nagatoxxxx, a very dangerous war bird!).

I took pictures of my current setup, including my level 6 Firestorm, Lightning, Drain Life and Heal spells. I them respec'd to Dexmage using the minimal dex for each build (137 for Raid Auto-Bow and 131 for Custom Recurve). Please note in all pictures I am wearing a Champion's Fine Crystal Ring, which added 2% Crit, 2 M/s and 4 Damage (which, in hindsight, I should have removed). In the Auto-Bow and Custom set pics, I was also wearing a +1 armor vanity crown (sorry, those were taken later). Here is the stat comparision for Enchanted, Raid Auto-Bow and Custom Recurve sets:


http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0852.png

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0863.png http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0876.png

Here are the respective sets and their spell damages, including averages:

ENCHANTED


http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0853.png http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0855.png

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0856.png http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0857.png

Firestorm - 379.5;
Lightning - 375.5;
Drain Life - 424.5; and
Heal - 199.

RAID AUTO-BOW


http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0864.png http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0865.png

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0866.png http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0862.png

Firestorm - 316.5 (83.4% as effective as Enchanted);
Lightning - 318 (84.7% as effective as Enchanted);
Drain Life - 358.5 (84.5% as effective as Enchanted);
Heal - 155.5 (77.4% as effective as Enchanted).

CUSTOM RECURVE


http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0879.png http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0880.png

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0881.png http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l607/kamikazees/DexMage/IMG_0878.png

Firestorm - 314
Lightning - 314.5
Drain Life - 356; and
Heal - 155.5.

CONCLUSIONS AND CALCULATIONS

Overall spell damage of the Auto-Bow and Custom Recurve sets are about 84% of the Enchanted Set. Heal is about 78%. It is interesting to note that the Auto-Bow set has slightly higher[I] spell damage (except Heal) than the Custom Recurve set, even with the Custom set's higher int.

So what are the biggest changes? Hit %, Critical Hit %, Armor, H/s, M/s and the Custom Recurve DPS are the biggest changes. The Hit % on the Auto-Bow and Recurve sets makes it virtually impossible to be debuffed in pvp. The Critical % of these sets is also phenomenal, and goes to 100% with Blessing of Might active. The downsides are lower Armor, which is very noticeable (and translates to higher deaths), and lower H/s and M/s. The Custom set H/s bonus is comparable to Enchanted, though, and that set's DPS is unmatched by the other sets (but with lower overall damage). The M/s of any of the sets is manageable with some potion usage.

So what does this all mean in play? Let's do some math. An average Bandit Boy enemy is thought to have about 120 armor. If all three mages cast Firestorm on this enemy 100 times, and assuming they can keep up Blessing of Might for 2/3 of those casts (20 out of 30 seconds, or 66 out of 100 hits) and assuming all spells land, then 1/3 of the time (34 hits), the damage will be the average Firestorm damage, minus enemy armor (120), plus the normal critical % of those 34 hits doing double damage. Then 2/3 of the time (66 hits), the damage will be increased by 30 from BoM, with a +60% critical rate doing double damage. With that in mind, here are the damage comparisons for Firestorm:

ENCHANTED (379.5 damage, 11% normal crit)

[34(379.5-120) + .11(34*379.5)] + [66(409.5-120) + .71(66*409.5)]
8823 + 1419.33 + 19107 + 19189.17 = 48538.5

RAID AUTO-BOW (316.5 damage, 43% normal crit)

[34(316.5-120) + .43(34*316.5)] + [66(346.5-120) + (66*346.5)]
6681 + 4627.23 + 14949 + 22869 = 49126.23

CUSTOM RECURVE (314 Damage, 49% normal crit)

[34(314-120) + .49(34*314)] + [66(344-120) + (66*344)]
6596 + 5231.24 + 14784 + 22704 = 49315.24

It is almost the same, with the Auto-Bow and Custom sets doing just a hair more damage over the 100 hits. However, keep in mind these figures are for [I]sustained damage on a target over time with 120 armor. If the fight does not last longer than 20 seconds (and thus, BoM does not run out), the last two figures are what counts. That means the Enchanted (38k damage) actually has an edge over Raid Auto-Bow (37.8k) and Custom Recurve (37.4k). That is because the effective Critical rate is capped at 100% and those sets only have 29% more Critical than Enchanted. Enchanted will also have the edge if enemy armor is higher than 120. Indeed, it is when BoM is not used, or is in cooldown, that the Auto-Bow and Custom Recurve out-damage the Enchanted with their insane critical.

The damage for Autoattack for each of the three is a bit different because weapon speed must be taken into account. Let's say all three Autoattack a Bandit Boy with 120 armor for 60 seconds with BoM active 40 of those seconds. Who does more damage? The Enchanted Staff does an average of 250 damage and attacks every 1.1 seconds, which is about 54 attacks. The Raid Auto-Bow does 228.5 damage and attacks every 1 second, or 60 attacks. The Custom Recurve does 229.5 damage and attacks every .9 seconds, or about 66 attacks. Let's find out:

ENCHANTED (250 damage, 11% normal crit)

[18(250-120) + .11(18*250)] + [36(280-120) + (36*280)]

2340 + 495 + 5760 + 10080 = 18675

RAID AUTO-BOW (228.5 damage, 43% normal crit)

[20(228.5-120) + .43(20*228.5)] + [40(258.5-120) + (40*258.5)]
2170 + 1965.1+ 5540 + 10340 = 20015.1

CUSTOM RECURVE (229.5 damage, 49% normal crit)

[22(229.5-120) + .49(22*229.5)] + [44(259.5-120) + (44*259.5)]
2409+ 2474.01 + 6138 + 11418 = 22439.01

The difference is a little larger, with Custom Recurve and Auto-Bow over Enchanted. They win out regardless of whether BoM is active because of the weapon speed and high Crit. This is on an enemy with 120 armor. Bosses have "more" armor. How much more, I don't know... probably enough to swing the difference back in favor of the Enchanted user? Maybe. What do you think? Please critique.

EDIT: Significant changes. Added Custom Recurve Stats and accurate (hopefully) math calculations.

[WhoIsThis]

You need to take into account armor. I think Physiologic said in PvE, in the Sewers, enemies have armor of around 120. That means you need to deduct 120 from the damage of everything except for heal. PvP will vary, but in general, the higher the armor, the more favorable things become for the pure int.

Another consideration - you may want to use the raid roach recurve. It gives the highest skill damage of all of the dex weapons.

[Arterra]

if you set up a dex mage to have 139 dex and 140 int, you get slightly better spells, and keep almost all the crit. in fact, a buffed autobow mage crits 103% of the time for me with a crit/dmg ring on. boss murder.

[JaytB]

Interesting interesting... I might try the 139dex/140int configuration sometime. Been playing with that thought earlier a little.

[WhoIsThis]

Reading this again

- I don't believe that heal crits (the blessings don't buff heal either)
- The only use of the higher crit on the custom recurve set will be unbuffed, as at 100%, everything crits

Keep the ring. In fact, for dex mage, you may want to use a dex ring. It's more representative of the game itself, where you are likely to be using a ring.

[kamikazees]

You need to take into account armor. I think Physiologic said in PvE, in the Sewers, enemies have armor of around 120. That means you need to deduct 120 from the damage of everything except for heal. PvP will vary, but in general, the higher the armor, the more favorable things become for the pure int.

Another consideration - you may want to use the raid roach recurve. It gives the highest skill damage of all of the dex weapons.

I agree on armor, and that is a tough thing to figure. Using your 120 armor figure, let's take the overall damage averages, 250 versus 224.5. For the Intmage with 11% crit, and assuming no buffs, 100 hits and all of them landing, she does (250-120)*111 = 14,430 damage. The Dexmage will do (224.5-120)*141= 14,734.5 damage, a little more. But, with Firestorm, the Intmage does (379.5-120)*111 = 28,804.5, while the Dexmage does (312.5-120)*141 = 27,142.5, a little lower.

I would love to get my hands on a Recurve. Hopefully I will soon. My suspicion is that a RR Recurve, and certainly the Custom Recurve, will skew pure damage in favor of the Dexmage. Still, I have been running my Dexmage all day now. The squishiness factor of having less armor is definitely noticeable.


if you set up a dex mage to have 139 dex and 140 int, you get slightly better spells, and keep almost all the crit. in fact, a buffed autobow mage crits 103% of the time for me with a crit/dmg ring on. boss murder.

Do 2 points make that much difference? Hmm.

[Arterra]

Do 2 points make that much difference? Hmm.

so it only gives 2 more points to spell damage? lol well then... at least you get dual spec status lol

im just saying, it maximizes the mage spell power.

[WhoIsThis]

Complicating things even more, when buffed, add the 60 crit and the 30 damage.

Bosses in particular have very high armor, which will push things in favour of the int mage there, while dex mages also have a lot better main weapons damage. Another thing to note is the lower mana regen on dex mages.

[kamikazees]

Complicating things even more, when buffed, add the 60 crit and the 30 damage.
I am not even going to try to do that math! Suffice it to say that the Intmage will get the full buff to crit because she does not go over 100, while the Autobow Dexmage goes to 103, which "wastes" 3%. The higher damage will benefit the Dexmage more (that damage gets multipled in Crits more often), probably giving the Dexmage the advantage overall. Probably.

I have been running this setup for about 24 hours now in Balefort Sewers. Here are some differences I've noticed.

1. The armor. Frankly, it's pretty awful. I'm squishier than a bird and am having trouble light tanking, even when properly buffed, and trouble tanking bosses, which I could formerly do with a staff. Problems with PUGs are worse, as mistakes or lack of group cohesion kills me more often too. I'm thinking of switching to a defense oriented ring, but really that defeats the purpose of the Dexmage.

2. The kills. Higher, both for me and for the mobs! When buffed most regular enemies simply die outright. Unfortunately, if they do not, they kill me. Cannot tell much difference overall with bosses. Even though I am killing things faster, I think my K/D is actually falling. I maintained a 50:1 over the last 5k kills or so. I think now it is about 30:1. Hopefully I will adjust to the set and get better.

3. Aggro. I get it much more often, I think as a byproduct of doing so much damage. I also get it more often from the increased distance I can attack using an Autobow. The increased distance is thus a plus and minus.

4. The mana. This is not too bad and mostly manageable. I am running with 25 of each pot, and the new pot system keeps it to where I can just about even out on my mana pot usage. I do have to pay attention to my spells, though, and to mana shield. I have had to do a couple of pot runs between BS runs, but that's not too bad.

5. Soloing. This is much more difficult. I do not have a talon/wing, and I assume the skill damage with that setup would be abysmal anyway, as a talon only does 78-82 damage. It would also be useless against anything with armor. It's not as simple as switching to a wand/bracer, so I stick to groups as much as possible.

That's it for now. Maybe I'll post some more observations later.

[Arterra]

i stopped caring about my k/d after the first version of AO3. nuff said.

you got to make sure to target the killer mobs like glowy slimes or birds first, to kill them off before they target you.

have to admit, while the mana situation is not horrible, it is not ideal either. when forced to use mana shield to run back a little, i end up empty.

as for going solo... frankly the game is not made for that. the difficulty is not scaled per number of members, and it is quicker to do PUGs than it is to solo since you are still getting some extra damage from the worst of players.

[karmakali]

Dex mage is a hard sell initially to a pure int mage...I think Sky../ tried to convince me for weeks before I finally, as a joke, tried it. Now? My full enchanted set lies in inventory collecting dust. It took me a while to adapt playstyle to accommodate the squishiness of dex but the damage I can deal is indeed addictive. So crit......does it actually close the gap between skill damage of pure int vs dex mage? I have never done the calculations to verify. I don't really notice any huge difference with any skills except maybe heal...big drawback but hey that's why we all have access to pots right?

I am so glad this topic is in discussion :)

@kamikazees...I will get those pics uploaded tonight. If needed then I am sure I would be able to borrow the Custom set.
Any plans on adding in a comparison of str mage as well?

[Arterra]

@kamikazees...I will get those pics uploaded tonight. If needed then I am sure I would be able to borrow the Custom set.
Any plans on adding in a comparison of str mage as well?

dont bother asking for str comparison lol. i used to be a dual spec pally, and trust me the damage was close to being non-existent, not to mention the hit% if you did not have a full set was bad. The only reason I STILL miss my pally was because now i die like a cocraoch with dexmage xD i'm still stuck to pally instincts to run in, spam everything, and keep moving...

[karmakali]

Lol...yeah the dying takes some getting used to. My k/d ratio was never a concern (probably because I was too noob to know anyone considered it a factor) but it definately has taken a hit since making the switch.

The pally factor would just be interesting to see. Maybe it would discourage a few mages from going this route....since I have seldom been impressed with Pally's...with a few exceptions (Olliwalli actually made me consider changing with his/her awesomeness). Absolutely no disrespect to the many amazing Pally's out there...just saying that you are outnumbered greatly by bad ones...... :(

I find the challenge to stay alive as dex kinda exhilarating though...like if I can charge into a mob and create absolute mayhem without dying it feels amazing. I have a tendancy to want to be in the front of the pack which definately brings more aggro my way but I will take the increased deaths to get increased challenge and fun any day! :)

[Sky../]

... blah blah blah ...

So you're saying you were trying to resist me at first, but eventually you succumbed to my irresistable charm. ;)

If i could get my hands on a fury sword and shield (which i'm too cheap to pay CS price for), i'll make you change to pally. ;)

[kamikazees]

....since I have seldom been impressed with Pally's...with a few exceptions
My initial thought is "no" for the above reason. Unless there is some kind of overwhelming demand, and someone is willing to loan me a Fury set for testing (all I have is a Rift set), I don't really see the point.

I was a pally from about levels 45 to 51. It is generally more person focused than team focused. You gain survivability, but do junk damage and have a gimped heal. Sure, you "can be the last one standing" in a near wipe situation, but really, how often does that happen? If it does, something has gone horribly, terribly wrong. The bear armor ends up benefitting the wearer more than the team. Same for wand mages (although to a much lesser extent), which is why I prefer a staff.

The time I do like Pallys is if there is no other tank. And yes, I think wand users count as tanks. Three bow birds, me and a brave Pally is really fun! But a bear, 2 pallys, a wand/bracer user and me takes a looong time to get anything done. Pallys and wands are also good in inexperienced groups.

[karmakali]

@kamikazees....points taken...I will include the strength/pally shots anyway. If you feel like doing the calculations it would still be interesting to see all the build options layed out next to one another showing the effects on skills. Either way...

@sky.../ ah yes your charm won me over...thatwas part of it. Your ability to steal aggro from the best of birds/bears on Goldfinger was another.....but the most compelling was your ability to die 10 times on one map and still kill more things than me ;)

And "i will make you change to Pally"? That sounds oh so wrong...hehe:o

Arterra....well and I guess all of you....what gear are you wearing? Full custom, raid or a mix?

[Fastcast]

I am a dual mage with 143 dex 141 int im currently using full enchanted staff/wand and bracer with full custom recurve set and I love it. But to the point if youd like to borrow my custom recurve set your more than welcome to. dual dex mage spells do crits way more with custom recurve xD

[rainsongwolf]

Actually if u dont care about keep using mana pot. I strongly suggest mystery bow set. Ur dps can go to 320 and skill damage almost same compare to custom recurve. In addition, hs is getting 30.

[JaytB]

Actually if u dont care about keep using mana pot. I strongly suggest mystery bow set. Ur dps can go to 320 and skill damage almost same compare to custom recurve. In addition, hs is getting 30.

Base dmg of a mystery set is pretty low compared to RR/custom, not to mention the lower crit. The only reason your dps is high is because of the weapon speed. Your 'real' dps will be way lower as soon as you take enemy armor into account.

[Sky../]

Crit Is what makes a dex mage. Without high crit dexmage won't even be in the same discussion as a pure int.

[Mkcecil]

I like dex mage its just difficult at the beginning when you are super squishy + you don't keep mana when spamming spells but on bosses its incredible and even for mobs i do pretty well :) just gotta keep pots and mana shield up

[Uepauke]

Lol...yeah the dying takes some getting used to. My k/d ratio was never a concern (probably because I was too noob to know anyone considered it a factor) but it definately has taken a hit since making the switch.

(...)

I find the challenge to stay alive as dex kinda exhilarating though...like if I can charge into a mob and create absolute mayhem without dying it feels amazing. I have a tendancy to want to be in the front of the pack which definately brings more aggro my way but I will take the increased deaths to get increased challenge and fun any day! :)

I used to be a full int, using staff whenever I could (e.g. Hideout or with people I have played with). I just recently switched to dual dex/int and have been hating the dying--where previously I could just spam heal, now I'd die if I just rely on healing, so I'm still getting used to using my pots more.

The shock of dying more often nearly made me consider switching back to int--I love my staff set! However, the fact that people in this thread have gone past this is encouraging me to carry on. Is it generally custom recurve people are using? I'm wearing raid bow set borrowed from a friend.

[cjswogkstkdg]

i like dex/int dual . little squishy but :)

[Mkcecil]

I used to be a full int, using staff whenever I could (e.g. Hideout or with people I have played with). I just recently switched to dual dex/int and have been hating the dying--where previously I could just spam heal, now I'd die if I just rely on healing, so I'm still getting used to using my pots more.

The shock of dying more often nearly made me consider switching back to int--I love my staff set! However, the fact that people in this thread have gone past this is encouraging me to carry on. Is it generally custom recurve people are using? I'm wearing raid bow set borrowed from a friend.most people are using Raid Roach autobow set and i have bagman set... (super weak) and trying to get my RR set so I can enjoy the full power of a dex mage, now dying is part of dex mage since you are a glass cannon...but non the less you are a " Cannon" so just because who your target is and dont run past the tank like a dork.... I do that still because of pally experience lol and avoid any traps at all costs they will kill you instantly without shield up and mana at full.

[Uepauke]

most people are using Raid Roach autobow set and i have bagman set... (super weak) and trying to get my RR set so I can enjoy the full power of a dex mage, now dying is part of dex mage since you are a glass cannon...but non the less you are a " Cannon" so just because who your target is and dont run past the tank like a dork.... I do that still because of pally experience lol and avoid any traps at all costs they will kill you instantly without shield up and mana at full.

LOL mixed feelings about dying being part of dex mage! I've got reasonably good habits because I'm a staff user (ok, I still charge into mobs, but I've found ways of surviving that and do occasionally take up some of the more peripheral positions for mob kills). It's actually the boss kills that are a problem--I am assuming the bow set is the best for boss kill, but I get a lot of aggro, and find myself spamming pots rather than skills just to keep alive, which seems a waste of my mage abilities. I'll try hanging back a bit further but it means some of the skills with less range won't hit the boss.

[Sky../]

i have bagman set... (super weak) ...

i disagree. Yes bagman's is weaker than raid roach, but it.s not super weak. Heck it's not even weak, it's actually a good dex set. Just because it's green doesn't mean it's no good.

[Otukura]

i disagree. Yes bagman's is weaker than raid roach, but it.s not super weak. Heck it's not even weak, it's actually a good dex set. Just because it's green doesn't mean it's no good.

True.

@Mkcecil, have you seen Physiologic play with it?

[Swimmingstar]

Dex mage is a lot better but harder to use dual spec is too expensive for lvls in the 50s until 55 cuz it's easier then
so I've got a dex hybrid using oranges they the gutter recurve set

[Mkcecil]

i disagree. Yes bagman's is weaker than raid roach, but it.s not super weak. Heck it's not even weak, it's actually a good dex set. Just because it's green doesn't mean it's no good.
Im not saying its no good, but it felt a bit squishier than my Raid Roach set, but if you have no other options then go with bagman, but if you have the cash then definitely buy Raid Roach set its a extra 6 crit I believe. and what do you mean have i seen physiologic play with it?

[kamikazees]

I have made significant changes to the guide, adding in a Custom Set with stats, as well as some math calculations. Please give it another read and let me know what you think!

[JaytB]

Strange how a recurve does less skill dmg compared to the autobow...

One thing though. You said 'That is because the effective Critical rate is capped at 100%'. But I wonder how true this is. I mean, hit% is capped at 85% as physiologic's tests proved. So, my question is, are you sure that critical hit is capped at 100%? Wouldn't it be logical this is capped at 85% too?

[Otukura]

Strange how a recurve does less skill dmg compared to the autobow...

One thing though. You said 'That is because the effective Critical rate is capped at 100%'. But I wonder how true this is. I mean, hit% is capped at 85% as physiologic's tests proved. So, my question is, are you sure that critical hit is capped at 100%? Wouldn't it be logical this is capped at 85% too?

Phys proved it that crit was not capped. I'll search for the post later.

[kamikazees]

...are you sure that critical hit is capped at 100%?
The "cap" I was referring to is that both Raid Auto-Bow and Custom Recurve give an actual critical rate of more than 100% with Blessing of Might, but cannot actually do so. The Raid set nets a 103% Crit, while the Custom Recurve nets 109%. Obviously, you can't Critical more than 100% of the time, so the extra % is wasted.

But yes, you can land 100% Criticals if your Critical % is that high. At least I'm almost sure I read that (Physiological). If I am wrong, and it's capped at something less than 100%, then the edge shifts more in favor of Enchanted.

[Otukura]

The "cap" I was referring to is that both Raid Auto-Bow and Custom Recurve give an actual critical rate of more than 100% with Blessing of Might, but cannot actually do so. The Raid set nets a 103% Crit, while the Custom Recurve nets 109%. Obviously, you can't Critical more than 100% of the time, so the extra % is wasted.

But yes, you can land 100% Criticals if your Critical % is that high. At least I'm almost sure I read that (Physiological). If I am wrong, and it's capped at something less than 100%, then the edge shifts more in favor of Enchanted.

Yes, you're right.


VIII. The Search for a Crit Cap

Much thanks to WhoIsThis for testing this with me.

In this section, we try to establish if a possible cap to crit exists; our main reason to test this out is simply because a hit% cap exists. At the moment, the highest possible crit value can only be achieved by a mage due to their powerful +60% crit buff. As such, we used WhoIsThis' pure INT mage to test this out. This was tested in Alien Oasis III: Close Encounters. Attacks were ONLY recorded while the mage was buffed for 94% crit.

Pure INT mage stats: Lv 56, 1/2/330 stat distribution
Pure INT mage equips: Mastermind Wand/Bracer combo
Crit: 34% unbuffed, 94% buffed

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Total attempted hits in Close Encounters: 107
Dodge: 14
Successful hits: 93

Non-criticals landed: 3 (3.2%)
Criticals landed: 90 (96.8%)

So far, no evidence of a crit cap less than 94% crit exists. If a crit cap does exist, it will be much higher than the hit% cap.

Since the sample number was small compared to the hit% data sample numbers, we will probably have to record more values down in the future.